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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK : STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN O F S OUTHOL D
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
53095 Main Road
Southold, New York
November 17, 2005
9:30 a.m.
Board Members Present
RUTH OLIVA, Chairwoman
VINCENT ORLANDO, Vice Chairman
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER, Board Member
JAMES DINIZIO, Board Member
MICHAEL SIMON, Board Member
LINDA KOWALSKI, Board Secretary
KIERAN CORCORAN, Assistant Town Attorney
COURT REPORTING AND TRANSCRIPTION SERVICE (631) 878 8047
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CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I'd like to call to
order our regularly scheduled meeting of November
17, 2005, and ask for a resolution stating that
all our applications have a negative declaration.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Our first hearing is for
John and Barbara Condon on Sigsbee Road in
Mattituck. Yes, sir?
MR. CONDON: Good morning, John Condon.
What I'm proposing at my home in Mattituck is to
put a front entry porch in and I'm asking for a
variance on the setback requirements. The porch
is 6'4"
right?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Right. By about 11'5",
MR. CONDON: Right.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Actually I was down
and I think it makes a very nice addition
You'll be
Jerry?
there,
to your house. It's a very nice house.
a little bit closer, 32'7" to the stoop.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have
objections.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I have no
objections to it. I have a question or two. Your
house now existing is pretty much the standard
setback on Sigsbee, which Member Goehringer lived
and was born and raised and knows that place
backwards and forwards now. The only thing is I
don't want to set a precedent in the neighborhood,
if you ever did enclose that as part of the
dwelling. I don't know if this is my decision to
write, but I'd just like to put that in so it
doesn't become part of the dwelling. So no other
questions.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: I would like to ask
you further is, since it's an attractive house; it
is in fact closer to the curb, though, than almost
all the other houses on the street, and it is
taller than the other houses, which is perfectly
legal. The question is how you would justify
getting a variance given that it would aggravate a
condition which already makes the house the most
conspicuous one on the block?
MR. CONDON: Well, I think it actually
makes the house a little more attractive, better
curb appeal. Right now the existing steps that
were put in when the building was constructed was
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basically to enable us to get into the house
without having to -- it was a legal step in,
essentially. And over the years, we just didn't
have the time and energy really to put a proper
porch there.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: There's an
incentive now?
MR. CONDON: Oh, yes, there is. My
daughter's getting married, and she said she
didn't want a picture in front of that house
without a front porch.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: One of the
consequences of the approval of this would be that
the other houses would presumably be free to apply
to make their houses equally curb attractive by
extending further, closer to the curb as yours;
would you have any problem with that?
MR. CONDON: I don't have any problem with
that.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: And I don't hear any
problems with the neighbors.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Certainly if you
built the porch only four feet you wouldn't need a
variance. You're 39 feet now and you could go
four feet. You haven't offered any compelling
reason why you need the two more feet?
MR. CONDON: The only reason was that my
son lives next door, and we designed a porch for
his house, and this porch is going to be the exact
size, and the nice part about it is that you can
put a chair out on the porch. If I make it
shorter than that, it's going to make it very
cramped, and that was the whole reason we went for
the variance.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Appearances are
appearances, and you're going to be setting not
necessarily a precedent, I mean other people are
going to want that two feet, and they could apply,
and I'm not one usually to do this, but I'm
wondering if you could cut it back a little bit
and just use it as an entryway instead of a deck?
What would be the hardship?
MR. CONDON: Two feet is two feet.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: One way or another
you can have it or you couldn't have it. I'd like
to know your reason for wanting it.
MR. CONDON: Only because if it was cut
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back two feet it would be very crampy and it would
not allow for someone to sit out on the porch.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: You want to be able
to sit out on that porch?
MR. CONDON: Right.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Are you saying that a
four foot wide porch would not allow room for a
chair and someone to walk by?
MR. CONDON: Not comfortably sit there.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Most people don't
have legs that are four feet in length.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I just
mentio~ something to the Board, please?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sigsbee Road was
developed in the late '30s and many of the houses
were constructed prior to zoning. I'm just
mentioning to the Board, yes, it's true that in
the immediate vicinity of Mr. and Mrs. Condon's
house you do have that 35 foot setback, but the
entire block is a multiplicity of setbacks; some
of which you may see with no rear yards at all, so
that they tend to sit back farther and some are
closer to the property line, particularly as you
get closer to Peconic Bay Boulevard. So I'm just
mentioning that and that's food for thought
also.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you, Jerry. Any
other comments? Is there anyone in the audience
that wishes to speak on this application? If not,
I'll make a motion to close the hearing and
reserve decision until later.
{See minutes for resolution.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next application is for
Mr. Kosmynka on Commerce Drive. He wants to make
a storage building.
MR. KOSMYNKA: Good morning, Mrs. Oliva
and Members of the board. My name is Martin
Kosmynka. I am the contract vendee and the
applicant for North Pork Self Storage. I am here
to request permission to allow a manager's
assistant unit apartment for the purpose of
security and management at the proposed public
warehouse facility that I'm proposing in front of
the Planning Board. The subject premises is
located at the industrial park situated at what
will be 50 Commerce Drive in Cutchogue. It is
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zoned LI.
The project currently has the following
approvals: The Town of Southold Architectural
Review Board, the Cutchogue Fire Department,
Suffolk County Water Authority tap off letter, the
Suffolk County Health Department, the only thing
left on the Health Department is for me to file
covenants and restrictions and I couldn't do that
until I see how this turns out. Also there has
been an a negative dec on the EAF, and I've had
six workshops with the Planning Board on this
protect.
This applicant complies with all variances
and requirements and will not prevent the orderly
and reasonable use of the adjacent properties or
the properties in the surrounding area or impair
the value thereof. Nor will it alter the
essential character of the neighborhood because
the proposal will be an accessory use to the
allowable use of the LI. The manager's unit will
not be visible from the outside and will only be
used by the manager of the public warehouse
facility. The manager's assistant unit will not
prevent the orderly and reasonable use of a
committed or legal establishment use in the
district whereof the manager's apartment is to be
located or to be permitted or legally established
use in the adjacent district.
Trust me, I had some help with this one.
The safety, the health and welfare, the comfort
and convenience or order of the Town will not be
adversely affected by the manager's assistant unit
apartment and its location. The manager's
assistant unit will allow 24 hour security to the
public warehouse, as well to the other businesses
in the industrial park.
The hardship is unique to our project and
to all self-storage facilities because of the
manager's unit is an industrial standard. A
self-storage facility is an allowable use in the
LI district, and the manager's unit is not
addressed by the code currently. I believe years
ago it was addressed by the code and I do believe
that Jim Grey, Jr. had approvals at one time for a
manager's unit back in the late '80s.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So you're not
before us here to ask for anything to do with the
storage? You're here just for the accessory use
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of the apartment?
MR. KOSMYNKA: What I sell is security,
onsite manager lives onsite and that's my
business.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I see it's a single
bedroom, so I assume there's no more children.
MR. KOSMYNKA: Generally as a rule it's a
retired person. Quite honestly, my manager's a
paraplegic, he'll be the one there. He's a single
guy, he's a 50 year old man.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Say we put a
condition on there that the person has to work for
you.
MR. KOSMYNKA: Without a doubt. That's
the only reason why he's there.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: There's a concern,
and I've been involved for quite a few years, that
people can live in these things. We just want to
avoid that. I think you want to avoid that. We
made it that the person living in that apartment
has to work for you. You wouldn't have any
objection to that?
MR. KOSMYNKA: I totally agree with you
and agree with your first statement, some
facilities, some people do try to live in there.
I will not allow electricity inside the unit. Our
ul~its don't allow it.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: You won't have
lighting in any of the units either?
MR. KOSMYNKA: Only in the hallways, but
not the unit itself, because of that one problem.
They're not supposed to work in the unit. It's
strictly for storage.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That's up to the
Town to enforce, if you don't mind that?
MR. KOSMYNKA: No, without a doubt.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: I have no questions.
I support the restriction. CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Mr. Dinizio
answered my question, and it was the same thing I
was going to ask. It would be hard to find
someone dedicated to do that position before you
built the structure, but obviously you have
someone in mind.
HR. KOSMYNKA: I've been in the business.
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BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I agree so it
doesn't get subbed out to some other person as an
apartment. Not that that's a bad thing, but you
are committing to this statement that you want
someone to live there who will be the manager,
which is a nice security.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jerry?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It concerns me
why it has to be 900 square feet, 902 I think?
MR. KOSMYNKA: I don't mean to be playing
this thing about my manager being in a wheelchair,
but it's a one bedroom, and I gave him an office,
a private little office, a study, whatever you
want to do. It's actually -- it's designated as a
one bedroom by the Health Department standards
that's what I showed him and then the other one is
an office for the manager and then just a living
room, kitchen area. Square footage, it's cheap to
give him, and I didn't want to make it cramped to
be honest.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The only reason
I ask you that question, the minimum square
footage in Southold town for a residence is 850
square feet, unless it's been changed. If you
were to build basically a two-story house, it's
750 square feet, then you would put either one or
two bedrooms on the second floor. To layout a
nice, well rounded, small, quaint, one bedroom on
the first floor, it gives you a living room,
dining room, full kitchen, and a very nice
bathroom and possibly a little mudroom in the
back, and I just wondered why you went up.
MR. KOSMYNKA: Again, i have a roll-in
shower designed in it. The guy is in a
wheelchair, you can't get enough room for having
your life in a wheelchair. The design is a
roll-in shower, I allowed for him to have a washer
and dryer in the facility, there's no intent to
put multi people in this unit. If you feel
strongly, I'll cut it down but the reason behind
the 900 square feet --
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Well, if you need a
wheelchair, you certainly need wider doors than
normal.
MR. KOSMYNKA: It's designed for a 36 inch
opening.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think you hit
the key right there, the issue of office; in other
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words, the office you're providing him is part of
the square footage, and that is the office he's
going to be using to run the facility?
MR. KOSMYNKA: No. That's his office. My
feeling is I'm on the computer, most people have
designated reem for a computer. This guy's got a
roll in shower, wheelchair he needs, he's got an
everyday wheelchair. Just part of the
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Will the office be
used by ether people besides the manager?
MR. KOSHYNKA: That's correct, there's an
assistant manager there too.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: One of the rooms in
the apartment is an office, correct?
HR. KOSMYNKA: Call it a study.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: I think the issue is
net what your intentions are, I don't think anyone
has any doubt of your intentions, it's just that
if sometime 30 or 40 years from new someone who
has different intentions were te occupy it and
were te find that it was very useful te have a
place sufficiently spacious so that people with
different intentions could use it more
elaborately.
MR. KOSMYNKA: But it would be going
against what Mr. Dinizie wants me te put in there.
It would be illegal.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: As long as the person
was an employee of the self-storage warehouse.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: It may be self
evident to everyone but I think it would help the
record, but I think the legal basis for this is
that this apartment use is accessory use to the
main use, the industry standard you said; can you
explain briefly why it's industry standard and why
you need a living space accessory to the operating
business?
MR. KOSMYNKA: I sell security, people are
putting in their life long possessions. This is
hew the industry sells themselves.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Se you need
somebody en the premises at all times; is that the
justification?
MR. KOSMYNKA: Basically. If there's a
conflict, I'll make the thing 800 square feet.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You have to
understand that we don't have toe many of these
come in. So we're learning to understand -- I'm
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learning to understand why you chose that square
footage. I think you clearly explained it to us.
I have to tell you, if there was any question
about your integrity or anything of that nature,
we would bring that up, there's no question.
You've come before us many, many times
particularly on your own residence. The issue is
it's a learning curve. Particularly the extra
study and the ADA situation which is basically
what we're learning about.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I comment on
that, I don't want to restrict this thing to just
a single guy. If you have a husband and wife team
that want to work there, I don't want that to be a
restriction, and honestly, if they have a child,
again, I can live with 1,000 square feet, and I
don't think we should be looking at it in that
respect. My thought was I didn't want it to be
separate of the business itself, if the father is
working there, that's his livelihood, and that's
what makes it affordable to live here, that's
fine, and if they're putting a child in school,
that's fine with me also. I just wanted to be
open with the fact that we needed to tie it
together with the business. Be honest with you,
1,000 square feet is not a lot of living space and
even a single man might have someone come for a
visit and might want to put him in there for a
day, and I don't think that should be restricted.
A person can have a friend, maybe
wide-screen TV and want to put it
But they have to live their life,
stand up and go to bed.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
they have a
in that room.
they can't just
I don't know
where you're getting the 1,000; it's 902. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Can I ask you something
that is really not within your purview, but in
your discussions with the Planning Board, I'm just
interested in the landscaping around it, which we
have no jurisdiction about. But it's a beautiful
road and you're coming up to an industrial piece
of property, the landfill you can't really see
from Route 48. I'm just hoping that the Planning
Board required some extensive and high
landscaping; do you have any knowledge of that?
MR. KOSMYNKA: You can see from my
photograph, there's 100 foot buffer from 48 to
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where my facility is going to start.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: So you do have
landscaping?
MR. KOSMYNKA: Yes. There's restrictions
on a bunch of stuff there. They're very in-tune
to this whole park going on there, and the
Architectural Review Board has been very, very -
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Good, I don't have any
problem.
HR. KOSHYNKA: Also the Health Department
restricts me. I put the application in for a eno
bedroom apartment, so I'm confined te what I
submitted te these folks, and in hew we designed
the system.
CHAIRWOHAN OLIVA: Is there anyone else in
the audience that would like to speak en this
application?
MR. POSTER: Good morning, Artie Fester,
I'm an adjacent landowner in there, and I just
recently applied for and received a site plan for
Let 5, and new we're actively engaged in using
that land. We have equipment there and we have
things there, and I would love te have security
down there. It's very dark there at night and it
would certainly help the whole community.
One thing I wanted te say in reference to
Hr. Simon's comments about the fear ef certain
things happening, you know, I don't think we can
make decisions based on what we think or speculate
may or may not happen down the road. If you ride
around this town, there's all kinds of things
going on that shouldn't be. And certainly if it
is in the site plan that there are certain
restrictions on the property, and the site plan is
violated, well, there's ways to deal with that as
well. We have a code enforcement officer that is
in charge of doing things like that. So I would
not want to make a decision based on the fear --
the sky may fall, you never know. But I am
totally in support of this, and I would urge the
Board to approve this. I think it's very
important to the little community that we have
down there in reference to security purposes.
Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you, Mr. Foster.
If there's no other comments, I'll make a motion
to close the hearing and reserve decision until
later.
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(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Our next application is
Mr. Sznurkowski, down on West Shore Drive for a
garage.
MR. SZNURKOWSKI: Good morning. I have an
application in to erect a one and a half car
garage on my property on West Shore Drive. The
reason being we really don't
have minimal storage.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I
you showed me what I thought
which is really a very small
have a garage. We
was down there and
was your garage,
work area, and you
want to tuck that garage right into the side of
your house there?
MR. SZNURKOWSKI: That's correct.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: And it's not very high
because you don't want to block your upstairs
windows?
MR. SZNURKOWSKI: Correct.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Do you have a
boat in the yard?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: No. This is the one in
Raden Shores. You're thinking West Lake.
MR. SZNURKOWSKI: It's a pie-shaped
property, it narrows down towards the roadway, and
parking is quite difficult and we have no place
for storing very many things.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: As long as the
Board feels that this lady and gentleman can get
to the front or rear yard of their home with the
eight feet, which I suspect they can, then I don't
have any objection to it.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: No questions. It's
a unique pie-shaped property there with the water
on the one side so you can't go that way, and then
you're converting your existing garage into living
space, correct?
MR. SZNURKOWSKI: When we bought the
place, they apparently took part of the room and
made a den area and the rest of it's a very small
storage area.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So it's not
actually a working garage. The garage door is a
facade?
MR. SZNURKOWSKI. No.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So you're making a
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single-story garage?
MR. SZNURKOWSKI: For lawn mowers and
chairs and things to be put away for the winter.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Just a matter for
clarification, you describe it as a one and a half
car garage, long enough for one and a half cars
but the same width for one car?
MR. SZNURKOWSKI: Penny Lumber calls it a
one and a half car garage. It's wider than the
one car garage.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: The depth is the
standard garage depth?
MR. SZNURKOWSKI: I believe it is.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Which tucks in nicely
with the corner of the house.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Does anybody else in
the audience have any questions or remarks on this
application? If not, I'll make a motion to close
the hearing and reserve decision until later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next application is for
Passaro, Deer Foot Path in Cutchogue.
MR. CONDON: John Condon representing
Mr. Passaro. This particular case involves
existing construction. It was constructed several
years ago, includes a deck that protrudes into the
rear setback for the property. The setback in
that area is 50 feet from the rear yard and this
one is approximately 36 feet from the rear yard.
It also involves an accessory structure, a storage
shed that is located in the side yard. So the
applicant is looking for a variance on the setback
requirements as well as the side yard use of the
accessory structure.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Right, they're
as-built. Yes. I believe he wants to sell the
house.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Hence the for sale
sign.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: The barn or
whatever you want to call it, that was put in the
side yard by putting on the deck. Before the deck
was constructed, that would have been the rear
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yard where is it is right now. CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: True.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm just a little
unclear, are you going to add to that barn?
MR. CONDON: No, it's already there.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Because if you look
on the plans, it's one side and then the addition
was put on but that was all done already.
Everything that's done exists; you're not going to
do anything but sell the house?
MR. CONDON: Right. He needs a C of O for
the structures.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Basically the deck
made the barn in the side yard. It's five feet
off, there's plenty of room there.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: No questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: No questions but
I'll leave Jerry to make his final comment.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jerry?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have no
problems with the deck at all. But if we placed
in the decision that we don't have any particular
objection to the storage building being in its
position as it is now, however if it became
significantly deteriorated, he d have to move it
back to a conforming location. Do you have any
objection to that?
MR. CONDON: The shed ms a typical storage
shed, there's a company on the North Road. It
does not have a footing in the ground; it
basically lays on top of four by fours.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's what I
was thinking. I'd rather not see it reconstructed
there because it's not in a conforming location,
but it can stay for as long as its useful life,
that's what my suggestion would be.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: I think if it's
moved five feet it would be conforming.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Jerry let me down,
I didn't say my comment because I thought you'd
say it. The deck should remain open to the sky,
that's your line, Jerry. I don't want to take it
from you.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Hold on, so listen,
we'll put the barn/shed must be removed to a
conforming area if the building deteriorates to
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non-useful.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: In other words
it can't be added onto or reconstructed; if it's
lost its useful life it has to be placed in a
conforming location.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: It can't be added
onto, they'd have to come before us anyway. But
if they can't use it anymore because they're
falling through the floor it can't be replaced in
that area.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Just have to
move it five feet. And as Mr. Condon said before,
I know he's an engineer, the point in question is
there may come a time where it reaches the end of
its useful life.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I'll make a motion to
close the hearing and reserve decision until
later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOM~kN OLIVA: Next application is for
Simon Caudullo on Seventh Street in Greenport.
Good morning.
MS. TOTH: Vicky Toth, I'm here on behalf
of the property owner, Simon Caudullo. He's
applying for a couple of variances for an existing
dwelling. It's come to light that back in
February of 2004 this Board granted an unmerger
from this property. In reading the decision, it
showed that it was the belief of this Board that
this lot was merged with the lot on the corner,
which is not the case, it's a separate parcel. It
stated in your reason for your approval of last
year's unmerger that the property to the north of
the subject was one parcel all the way up to Front
Street.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: I have the file in
the office, we could talk about that tomorrow or
later, that's not what's before the Board today,
right?
MS. TOTH: No. I'm just stating that
there's actually two parcels there. There's this
cottage that is on the parcel presently. I did
speak with the property owner in the rear of the
parcel. He has no objections at all to what is
being proposed here. He was actually surprised
that it had to go for a variance because it was a
building structure that had been in existence for
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as long as he could remember. The property to the
north has no CO. The property that is behind the
subject has a pre-CO. And I'm sure if you were
out at the site, the project to the south is
currently under construction. As far as the
location of the existing deck on the parcel, it's
been in existence - there's always been a deck on
that and yes, he did build it to where it's a few
feet closer to the road, but as you can see on the
parcel directly joining to the north that has a
deck that's even closer to the road than our
parcel.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: The house has basically
been rebuilt?
MS. TOTH: They did a renovation on the
inside.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: And new shingling on
the outside?
MS. TOTH: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: It's built.
MS. TOTH: It's pre-existing.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: You're talking
about the new work?
MS. TOTH: I wasn't involved when they
were building or redoing the construction and
renovation, and I think there was a
misunderstanding when they applied for a CO for
the property, and the building inspector went out
there and said it's uninhabitable, there's no
kitchen or bathroom, and I'm assuming the property
owner at the time misunderstood that to mean make
it habitable. So he completed the renovations,
when in reality they wanted him to apply for
variances to complete renovations.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I peaked in the
windows, there is a little kitchen in there.
MS. TOTH: I have a set of as-built plans.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: I need it for the
file when there's a decision, I would like to
refer to those. Thank you.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: That's part of the
disapproval, that's why you're here.
MS. TOTH: Correct. I'd like to further
state too, that the size of the this lot makes it
impossible for any type of home to meet the lot
coverage area. I was out there. I went through
the whole property. It's very well maintained.
It's very clean. The job they did was very well
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constructed. Everything is to code and you can
see as the as-built plans show you, everything is
to code.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: It looks good. Jerry?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What can you
assure us regarding this property that Nothing
will be constructed in the future without a
building permit?
MS. TOTH: Currently the property is for
sale. I'm sure you saw the for sale sign there.
As far as anything being built without a permit in
the future, I cannot guarantee that because
whoever purchases the property they would be the
people that would be responsible to apply for a
proper permit if they did decide to make this
larger.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm actually
offering this statement to the Town attorney, and
not putting him on record, but if this Board
placed reasonable covenants on this property and
asked the property owner to file those covenants
along with the deed in the county clerk's office,
I think the Board would then go down on record as
saying that's it, you won't do anything else.
We're taking a structure that was a structure,
that still is a structure until this Board renders
it to be a dwelling, and we're placing it in the
possible guise of being a dwelling. The history
on the parcel is that it was a -- and I'm sure
you're correct in what happened in reference to
the situation - and my concern is not the most
immediate but what's going to happen in the
future.
MS. TOTH: I guess too, you have to look
at the area. They're building a brand new house
next door, and it's surrounded by two-story
dwellings. Actually in my opinion if they did put
a second story on this it would at least bring the
square footage up to conformance of Town code.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: They can knock
out the second story on this without a variance in
a weekend.
MS. TOTH: There could be restrictions put
on the property that no further renovations,
additions or anything be performed without prior
approval from the building department.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: That's
existing law already.
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MS. TOTH: I don't know if it's legal that
you can do that.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: They can't do a
thing on this property without a variance.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Sure they could.
They would have to come before us with an
as built.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Jerry wants to
restrict them to something they're restricted to
already. If they applied for a building permit to
put a second story on that building, they are here
before us.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm not
interested in the second story; I'm interested in
a second addition.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: In any case they
would need a variance. They're 23 percent over
lot coverage already. If they put a stoop on this
house, they're before us. So I mean, discussing
restrictions is crazy. I'd like to see them put a
second story.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm not
discussing restrictions. I am discussing
covenant~ in a deed. There is a major decision or
difference between those two things.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: But it's
unnecessary, Jerry.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And it's also
unnecessary to have a habitable structure in front
of you which is not a habitable structure. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Jerry's initial
question was to ask the applicant to put a
restriction on the house requiring they get a
permit before they do it; that was the initial
question, correct, Jerry? I don't think you can
stop someone from building a second story
overnight.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: We have a structure
that doesn't conform to the 850 square feet and we
would like to have people living in at least 850
square feet but on this house, we're going to say
to this house, no, you can't have 850 square feet.
That doesn't make any sense at all.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It is not a
house until this Board rules it to be a house.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree. But don't
hold them back, don't say you have to be
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restricted to what's not conforming to the code.
If the person wants to bring it up to the code,
well, that's better don't you think?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER:,, Jim, there is a
vast difference between 850 square feet and what
this house represents at this time. And that is
it, it's probably less than half.
CHAIRWOMA/q OLIVA: 470.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: It's iow.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Ail I am asking
for is a covenant on the deed which says there
shall be no further construction.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: You mean expansion?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: What if they wanted to
come up? Jim's right, they have to come before us
anyway, no matter what they do, Jerry.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's fine, but
the history has been, although it may be a
subsequent owner, unfortunately there have been no
applications before any boards.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: That's what Jerry's
initial question was, is there something we can
put in place to require them to get a permit
before they build. I don't think there is.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: You can
require whatever you want in way of covenants, but
if you're duplicating whatever's already in the
code or what's in the law it really doesn't add
very much. If you wanted to limit what they could
do in the future to the property, sort of on the
merits, you could certainly do that. It would be
a policy decision on yours whether you wish to
hamstring the property that way. There may be
ways to make the property better, and if you are
restricting that, you may be doing something you
don't wish to, but that's up to the Board as a
policy decision as to what they want to see done.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRWONLAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: No questions.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I was going to ask
you what exactly is the square footage? MS. TOTH: Just under 500.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: 470 I thought I saw,
Jim.
deck,
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That's with the
right?
MS. TOTH: According to the Building
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Department it's 335.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: That's without the
deck?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That's without the
deck. But the 375 is what the Town would count as
livable space. A house has to have enough rooms
inside heated, 850 square ~eet. So it's 375,
right?
MS. TOTH: If you're including your deck.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: If you're including
your deck I thought it was more.
MS. TOTH: I figured out the square
footage by the as-built plans, I show the dwelling
as 364.89, and I show the deck at 175. So that's
actual figures right from the plan.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: So the 364 is
livable space and the deck is 175. Ail right. I
have no further questions other than the place has
been fixed up pretty nice.
MS. TOTH: They did a nice job, but he
should have done it correctly.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That's the crux of
our problem, that's what Jerry's talking about,
the enforcement.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: There needs to be a
stricter as-built code.
MS. TOTH: I agree. Unfortunately your
hands are tied. People can go do whatever they
want on a weekend, and you have no control over
it.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, you do. It's
just the Town chooses not to take that avenue.
That's all I have.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: The owner has to
ask if the building permit's required before they
do the work.
MS. TOTH: That too, I agree. Ignorance
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: No excuse. Is there
anyone in this audience that wishes to speak on
this application? Yes, ma'am?
MS. DUNBAR: Good morning, Board, I'm Jill
Dunbar. I just want you to know that I agree with
Mr. Dinizio. It will be greatly enhanced, most
people who are looking at it want to make it a
bigger structure. They don't want to do anything
wrong, they want an 800 square foot house, like
Dan Finney's that's being built next door.
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CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you. Is there
anyone else who would like to speak? I'll make a
motion to close the hearing and reserve decision
until later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next application is the
Cheryl Hanson Revocable Trust on Elizabeth Lane,
Southold. Yes, ma'am.
MS. HANSEN: Hi, I'm Cheryl Hansen and I'm
requesting to put a two-car garage on the
property. And I was denied the first time because
the configuration of the property does not allow
us to put the garage in the rear of the house. So
the only place we can put it is where we have it
erected.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: That's the one where
all the boats are now. Okay, Jerry, you go
first.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Hansen, how
close is that to the property line of your
neighbor?
MS. HANSEN: I think it's five
feet. That's a cousin of mine, very good cousin.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: How high is the
garage?
MS. HANSEN: I came down yesterday. I
think we changed it to the most 16. The reason I
had it 14.5, but the slope in the ground, it's
going to be the same size as the house, it will
not be any higher.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's really not
attached to the house except for that stoop?
MS. HANSEN: That will go, that's just a
little attachment that was put on that had the
gas, propane tanks in there.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So I would
suggest placing to the Board the normal
restrictions, that it only be used for storage,
amd it will only contain the utility of
electricity?
MS. HANSEN: Yes.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: No other questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Did I understand that
the distances from the canal which requires a
variance is not in fact not as close to the canal
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as the corner of the house is?
MS. HANSEN: Yes, it's 71 feet back. You
can see the house jets out in the front there, and
that's maybe 13 feet more. So it still conforms
the line of the house, sets back 13 feet from the
line of the house.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Ne questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Is there anyone in the
audience that wishes te speak en this application?
(See minutes for resolution.)
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Our next hearing is for
Ellen McNeilly for a dormer. Hiss McNeilly.
MS. MCNEILLY: Good morning, Madam
Chairman, and Hembers of the Board.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: What would you like to
tell us? You're just putting a dormer up. I see
you have a model there, show it to Jerry.
MS. MCNEILLY: This is what the house is
currently. This is what I received a variance
for.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's what you
had the excavation for?
MS. MCNEILLY: Exactly. I made an error
literally. We were still discussing, which is why
we had these two models, as to how we were going
to do this, what we liked. So it was either leave
it the way it is, which looks as if a chomp has
been taken out of it or put a second bedroom.
Well, there is already two bedrooms in the house.
There's one small one back here, and a larger one
here (indicating). The question was if we made
that into a hallway and then put another bedroom,
making this a hallway and closets and this one
another bedroom to match the size of that one, the
house would look more balanced and wouldn't be
looking strange in my opinion. This is the
amount, four feet in from here that is past the
setback. The setback is 5'3" here, 6'4'~ there,
which was your I think original comment to me at
that point. So this is the amount that would
exceed.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The only
objection I have, or the only concern I have is
water runoff and the only request is that gutters
be installed on that side and dry wells. It's the
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only concern I have.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: It does make your house
more balanced.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have to tell
you that it is so impressive to see a model.
MS. MCNEILLY: Dry wells and gutters.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Right. Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Expanding on
Mr. Goehringer's, is there room for your dry
wells? You'd have to plumb it into the back?
MS. MCNEILLY: I don't know, can it not
be?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: You have to go four
feet away from the house, but you can go to the
side.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: No questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Anybody in the audience
wish to speak on this application? If not, I'll
make a motion to close the hearing and reserve
decision for later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next hearing is for
Montauk Bus Service on Commerce Drive in
Cutchogue. Yes, sir.
MR. RUSSO: Good morning, my name is Eric
Russo. I'm with the law firm of VanBrunt, Juzwiak
& Russo with offices at 150 Main Street in
Sayville. I'm representing Montauk Bus Service,
Inc., at 556 Mastic Beach Road, Mastic Beach, New
York, who is the proposed tenant at the subject
property if approvals are received from the Town
of Southold and a contract vendee of the subject
property. The property owner is the Tide Group,
Inc., at 275 Cardinal Drive in Mattituck and the
property is zoned Light Industrial District
according to your code under 100 140. It's vacant
land at the present time and it is the newly
formed North Fork Industrial Park.
The property is at 115 Commerce Drive in
Cutchogue, and it's about 1,095 feet northeast of
the corner of Corporate Road. It's 1.083 acres in
size or 47,166 square feet. There is Suffolk
County Water available to the site. The water
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main has just been brought down through that area.
We are presently making application to the Water
Authority. There are Suffolk County Health
Department applications pending for the sanitary
design. We have just received comments from them.
We are in compliance with Article 6. We have also
made application for the above-ground 5,000 tank,
which is proposed for the bus fueling at this
particular location. We anticipate approvals on
all those applications as the process continues.
We are seeking today a special exception
under 100 141 B6 for a proposed bus terminal use
and related building areas. There is a building
proposed on the site of approximately 3,000 square
feet. It's 50 by 60 in size. The property's
situated on what will be an improved, dedicated
and maintained Town roadway. And we also affirmed
of all statements that we gave to the Planning
Department and the Zoning Board in our application
relating to this particular application.
We are in compliance with parking. We are
in compliance with lot coverage according to the
code and landscaping. With me today, I also have
Terry Elkowitz, of the firm of Freudenthal &
Elkowitz Consulting Group, Inc. who will run
through the 16 criteria that you have outlined in
your code, which are the considerations and
matters which this Board must address as it
relates to health, safety and welfare and criteria
for granting a special exception.
I, with the request of the applicant,
obtained a traffic report, which we had prepared
by RMS Engineering. I have a copy here for the
Board, went through an analysis of the buses and
the parking on the site and the traffic
considerations that would be inherent with this
application.
There are proposed 15 drivers, one
mechanic, on supervisor which will be utilizing
this facility. Hours of operation are 6:00 a.m.
to 4:30 p.m. The bus drivers will arrive at 6:00.
Buses will leave approximately at 7:00, and then
they will return again between 9:00 and 10:00, and
they will be back between 1:00 and 2:30 in the
afternoon to take the vehicles from the site and
then return the buses between 4:00 and 4:30.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: What are the buses
going to be used for?
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MR. RUSSO: For the Mattituck School
District, Madam Chair.
I have a letter here and copies for the
Board, which was provided by Kenny Aldrich, the
superintendent of schools. This is the original
letter for the record. And the letter basically
indicates that Mr. Mensch, John Mensch, who is the
president of the company, has been retained with a
contract with the Mattituck School District to
provide bus service here and the contract took
place for the 2005-2006 year, commencing as of
July 1, 2005.
Presently the operation is being situated
on school grounds, they're not on at this
location. But he is supporting this application.
In this he was of the impression that there would
be a temporary office here at the time. However
that application after discussion with the Town
attorney was modified. We've decided to go
through with a full commercial site plan
application, secure a building permit, then get a
CO, and then bring the buses to the site. It's
our hope that this process will be completed in
time and the contract will be extended and this
will go forward for next year as well.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Does that
exhaust the capacity of the site? Or if you got
contracts with other schools is there extra room
to fill up more of the site?
MR. RUSSO: In this particular location
it's just for the Mattituck School District.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: But is there
excess capacity en the site?
MR. RUSSO: We only have 16 buses, we're
proposing 15 at this particular location.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: These are all
used in the Ma~tituck district?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: They're going to be
dedicated towards Mattituck.
MR. RUSSO: This particular location will
be exclusively dedicated to Mattituck.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: My only
concern is if the Mattituck contract used up, for
example, half the capacity ef the site, then we
would have concerns about future impacts that are
not addressed here.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: And they're all going
te be kept outside. There's ne building to house
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these buses in?
MR. RUSSO: That's correct. If you have
look at the site plan that we presented to the
Planning Department, the rear of the property, it
is shown on the site plan that we have a buffer
planting presently around the perimeter with the
entrance at the end of the street there. And once
you come onto the site you will first pass the
parking that is required for the drivers, the
supervisor, the mechanic, and then behind that or
I guess to the left is the fueling pump, and then
behind that is where the buses are stored.
This is a copy of the traffic report. I
have taken the liberty of highlighting what I
provided two additional ones, which basically
indicate that they evaluated them in light of
traffic standards, and there is compliance and
that there would be no impact as related to that
particular --
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Where are the buses
currently being stored?
MR. RUSSO: In the school district
grounds.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Where is that
property?
MR. RUSSO: Just east of this property on
the other side of the dump.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: It's just a barn.
MR. RUSSO: If there are no other
questions of me at this time, I'd like to have
Miss Elkowitz come forward. She's appeared before
this Board on numerous occasions to testify and
just run through the points as they relate to your
code. We also have the engineer available, James
DeLuca from Riverhead, if there are any questions
about the site or its design. But we won't go
into that because that's more appropriately held
for the Planning Board should this Board grant
special exception.
We also did have the ability to review the
comments that were received at around quarter to
5:00 last evening from the Planning Board chair,
where they outlined what the concerns were as to
this application and four points. But as to those
particular points, many of those requests that
they were seeking, we haven't made that
application because if this Board doesn't grant
this special exception, we would not necessarily
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make those applications. But I'm sure if this
Board should grant it, we can apply and address
all of those concerns that are outlined.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Just one other
question, what type of landscaping are you going
to be doing on this property especially facing
Route 48?
MR. RUSSO: If you look at the site plan
before you, it shows that we have perimeter
landscaping, the perimeter landscaping indicates
on the plan that we are required to have 25
percent landscape coverage. We're showing 29
percent. At the moment what is being proposed is
in compliance with the code in terms of the types
of plantings that are there. There is a 50 foot
buffer that runs from the rear of the property to
Deep Hole Lane, which is the requirement as part
of the subdivision, and then there is land behind
that. If the Planning Board at the time of the
site plan asks us to augment that, we'd be happy
to do that, and we'll address it during site plan
review.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I'm really concerned
being that Route 48 is really still a very
pleasant road to drive with the open roads and
what have you, and this is really our first
application for the use of that light industrial
piece of property. And I would like to see that
it is properly screened in so that it would be
hidden from view because I'm sure people don't
want to look at a lot of buses or a lot of storage
buildings hitting them in the eye, as you can't
even see the landfill, which is completely
screened-in. So I would hope that the other
people in that piece of property would follow
suit.
MR. RUSSO: We understand your concern and
it also will be addressed as part of Miss
Elkowitz' presentation, but we do not front on the
County Road out there, and if there are not other
questions at this time, I'd like Miss Elkowitz to
come forward.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Before you run, a
quick question on your traffic study, I beg to
differ on your traffic study, although you didn't
do it. I can't see how it's not going to increase
traffic in regards to County Road 48 when all the
buses are coming back typically at about the same
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time. I don't think there's enough turning lane
to make a left, which would be going eastbound
which would be turning north te get back into this
section. You'll have five buses stacked up on 48,
which you'll leave the turning lane now you'i1 be
on 48. Because they all seem te congregate about
the same time. They all drop off around the same
time and they all come back. And they have no
light, se now you're subject to trying to get the
buses through te make your left-hand turn and
going north to get back onto Commerce. I see that
being a major problem.
BOARD HEMBER DINIZIO: No because the
entry to that development is halfway up that read.
HR. RUSSO: Your concern is on the County
Road, but once again, these buses are going te be
out there making their individual routes. They're
going to be going out approximately the same time,
but depending on the length ef the route, the
return time is going to be different.
BOARD HEMBER ORLANDO: I drop off my
children every day ef school, and all the busses
seem te leave within a minute of each ether.
They're all going to ge back to wherever they
congregate. So they are all going to eventually
get there and with the North Road getting busier
and busier, I see them stacking up there on 48
~rying to make a left-hand turn, which is going to
be a hazard for them, luckily there will be no
children on board, as well as the other people.
MR. RUSSO: I would like to introduce to
you Mr. Mensch, who is the president of Montauk
Bus. He can address that question for you.
MR. MENSCH: The schematic right now the
way it is right now, whether it be the morning or
the afternoon, the high school is first, then the
elementary is second, basically once you complete
your elementary school the majority of the buses
would be coming back west along 48 because that's
basically the population, the way the routes have
developed. True, there are going to be some
buses, but basically you're not going to have that
many buses stacked up there.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: In other words, you're
saying they're coming further east to Cutchogue
and then making the turn perhaps at Cox Lane at
~he light and coming down.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I don't see in the
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letter any future to put a light up at that
intersection.
MR. RUSSO: In order to address the light,
it would have to be a recommendation from the
county that they would want to see a light at that
particular location. If you recall, this is an
industrial subdivision that has been developed
here within the town, one of the few industrial
subdivisions that the Town has created, and at
this point that will have to flow as the
development within the subdivision ensues. It's
not something with this one particular use, and
with the town, you have the landfill there where
they're doing the wood chipping and processing.
Right now the traffic there at that location is
diminimus.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: The reason they
stopped that left-hand turn going north into the
landfill, because people were getting killed
there. It's a bad intersection. Now you're
making buses trying to make that same turn, which
are three times longer than a car. I have a
concern for safety.
MR. RUSSO: I can have Mr. Muller, who
prepared this traffic report, if you would like a
more detailed response, I can have him go into
that for you.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Did they actually
speak to the county in regards to this?
MR. RUSSO: What would happen normally in
the site plan process when we go to the Planning
Board and are looking to address the site plan
approval, the County would receive a copy of this
application and Suffolk County DPW and the County
Planning Commission would be notified and be able
to respond to whatever those concerns are and they
would be addressed in that process.
CHAIRWOMAN 0LIVA: Also, sir, it would not
hurt, we have a transportation commission here in
the Town, and you can ask the Town Clerk for the
chairman's number to run it by the transportation
commission might be a good idea. MR. RUSSO: Certainly.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Also, what is the
day to day operations here on this site.
Obviously the buses going back and forth, the
mechanic on site, fueling up at night or in the
morning. What about washing the buses? Are they
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going to be washing the buses at the site?
MR. RUSSO: I'll have Mr. Mensch mention
that because he's presently running bus operations
further up-island from this area, in the
Mastic-Shirley area, in the Hampton Bays area and
in 9onkonkoma.
MR. MENSCH: As part of our Board of
Health we have to put a holding tank basically,
which is constructed out of a slab and then
basically the wash water, the soap, detergent goes
into that then we have to have that trucked away.
BOARD MEMBER ORL~/NDO: So you have a
holding tank for when you wash your buses?
MR. MENSCH: Yes, you can't let it run
into the ground. It's illegal anymore so as part
of our Board of Health permit we have to include
that.
BOARD MEMBER ORL~LNDO: So you have a
containment area where you wash your buses and all
the grease, dirt.
MR. MENSCH: Which goes into a box
basically. You have to have a licensed contractor
come in a pull it out. And I believe they take it
up to Bergen Point. You have to have it
registered. The DOT will be required to come in
there bi annually to inspect the buses, inspect
the facility and record that. Everything from
batteries to oil, you're limited to what you can
do on that facility.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: What about
lighting; are you going to put around the clock
lighting, are you going to have large lights?
MR. MENSCH: Yes, sir, and I guess the
applicant that was before us is going to have
security right next to me with the storage.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: We do have a lighting
ordinance too to make sure they're shielded
because we don't want people driving up Route 48
and suddenly be blasted.
MR. RUSSO: Mr. Orlando, we do have a
copy, our engineer, James DeLuca, did bring with
us today a copy of the type of lighting that is
proposed for this application, which would be part
of the site plan review. It is in compliance with
the Town code requirements and it's down lighted
and would not have any infusion restrictions as it
relates to beyond the site. And it would all be
self contained. If you want a copy of the spec, I
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can provide it for you. I have it with me if
you're interested in seeing it.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Please.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mr. Orlando, I
just want to mention something. Originally this
was, the original proposal said Mattituck School
District, it's of course, Mattituck-Cutchogue
School District and for everybody's benefit
Sunrise Bus decided not to, very simply, service
Mattituck-Cutchogue School District, which is why
f suspect this nice gentleman is here. However,
with the idea that mentioning the aspects of the
traffic study, I just want to tell you that the
major renovation in Mattituck Cutchogue School
District, although we have a major renovation
going on in the high school, was the East
Cutchogue School. And that East Cutchogue School
does lie just east of Cox Lane, where there is a
traffic light on the Main Road and there is a
traffic light on County Road 48. So even though
it may look like most of the traffic is going to
be coming from the west, there will be a great
variety of buses coming from the east also. And
they would probably, if I was a bus driver
certainly go down Cox Lane and take the liberty of
enjoying that particular route coming back from
the east to the west. So yes, you're absolutely
correct there will be stacking in the west going
east making that left turn, but there is also
going to be a huge variety of no stacking using
the left-hand turn lane on Cox Lane coming back.
And hopefully the study will indicate that. Or
whatever Mr. Muller intends to say regarding that?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: All right, I'm not
sold on it yet. Safety is an issue, safety of
these people that could be in this accident. So
we have a great concern. Also this is a big
venture for a one-year contract. Is there
multiple years on this?
MR. RUSSO: Yes, there are.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: How long has
Montauk Bus been servicing Mattituck-Cutchogue?
MR. MENSCH: This is our first year. We
have been in business for 35 years, servicing 19
different school districts.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So if this one year
comes up, and they choose not to renew you, you
would have to go elsewhere with these buses?
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MR. MENSCH: That would be correct. But
basically we would not want to renew the contract
if we could not properly store our equipment
because of the cost of fuel, it's quite expensive.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: You're doing a
major build-out; you're buying this piece of
property, correct?
MR. MENSCH: That's correct.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So you're committed
to this, so whether you service
Mattituck Cutchogue or Rocky Point, you're going
to be servicing someone.
MR. MENSCH: We're going to be here for a
long time. If this is approved we will probably
extend this contract five more years.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: But is it up to you
or up to the school to extend it?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Why are you having all
the buses outside, if it snows what happens?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: They close school.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Not with two inches,
but enough that your buses have to get in and out
what have you, slushy, icy conditions and you
don't have any cover for the buses?
MR. MENSCH: We operate approximately 350
school buses on eastern Long Island and none of
them are garaged. We just have to have people
clean them off. It's too expensive to put them
inside.
MR. RUSSO: With that, I would allow with
your permission, to proceed with Miss Blkowitz.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: I just want to add a
comment. I share Mr. Orlando's concern about the
traffic, but it isn't clear to me that this is
within the jurisdiction of the Zoning Board of
Appeals. I am glad that there are other agencies,
which will presumably, if they are doing their
legally mandated jobs, attend to those things
themselves. ~
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: It should come up with
the SEQRA process with the Planning Board. Yes,
Ma'am?
MS. ELKOWITZ: Geed morning Madam
Chairman, Members ef the Board, for the record my
name is Terry Elkowitz. I'm a principal of the
firm Freudenthal and Elkowitz Consulting Group,
with offices at 368 Veterans Memorial Highway in
Commack. I'm just going to put up in front ef you
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an aerial photograph. I'm sure you're familiar
with the site, but as I refer te what's
surrounding the property, it might be helpful to
have this. I also have hand-outs of aerial photos
just for the record.
As Mr. Russo explained to you, I'm the
lucky eno who gets te go through the 16 criteria
set forth in your cede with regard to the granting
of a special exception permit. But I would just
like to very quickly go ever the character of this
neighborhood. Mr. Russo has explained to you that
it is within an improved industrial subdivision.
It's zoned LI, to the west are undeveloped
properties immediately within the subdivision,
followed by agricultural uses. Te the east is
undeveloped property within the overall
subdivision. This goes to a question of
Chairperson Oliva, she was asking about the
buffering that we were going to have along CR 48.
There is another parcel of the subdivision between
this property and CR 48.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I knew that.
MS. ELKOWITZ: What my client is proposing
to do is to fence his property and also put
evergreen vegetation along it and obviously
whatever details that the Planning Beard would
like, the applicant is willing to comply with the
vegetation requests.
To the north is undeveloped property, a
recharge basin, the composting facility; as you go
further north there's a tiny strip residential,
and then the landfill that the chairperson
identified.
Immediately te the south is Deep Hole
Lane, which provides access into the subdivision
and then there is agricultural land.
New the first criterion that you are
supposed te require and we are supposed te comply
with is that the character of the existing and
probable development of uses in the district, and
the peculiar suitability of such district for the
location ef any such permitted uses. I have just
testified to you that this is within an approved
industrial subdivision. It is going to be
surrounded by industrial uses. It's in the LI
district. So I respectfully submit te you it
would net alter the established character ef the
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The second is the conservation of property
values and the encouragement of the most
appropriate uses of land. Again, given the
surrounding uses, we don't believe it would
adversely affect property values.
The third is the effect that the location
of the proposed use and the location at entrances
and exits may have upon the creation or undo
increase of vehicular traffic congestion on public
streets. Ail of the access is going to be
confined along Commerce Drive, which is the
internal access and certainly we heed
Mr. Orlando's concerns with regards to the
operation of CR 48.
The next is the availability of adequate
and proper public or private water supplies and
facilities for the treatment, removal or discharge
of sewage, refuse or other effluent that may be
caused or created as a result of the use. You
have heard that Suffolk County Water Authority
will supply water. We will have an onsite
sanitary system that in all ways will comply with
Article 6 of the Suffolk County Sanitary Code.
The depth to groundwater is in excess of 44 feet,
so there is adequate leaching potential on this
site.
We also will have solid waste collected by
a private carter and as Mr. Mensch explained to
you any waste oil or waste material from wash down
will be handled by a licensed hauler.
The next is whether the use or the
materials incidental thereto or produced thereby
may give off obnoxious odors, gasses, smoke or
soot. The only emissions are those with typical
bus start ups, and there are very stringent
regulations with regard to bus emissions that are
promulgate by New York state. Mr. Mensch is
required to comply with them and there are
bi-annual state inspections of his buses.
The next is whether the use will cause
disturbing emissions of electrical discharges,
dust, light, vibration or noise. There will be no
electrical discharges, dust because it will be
paved, or vibration. With regard to light, Mr.
Orlando, that was a question I asked myself, and I
have been assured that the lighting will be fully
compliant with the Town of Southold and will be
shielded so you will not have a diffusion of light
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off the subject property.
with regards to noise, Mr. Mensch is also
required to comply with the Suffolk County
standard, which I learned about by doing this
project, that you are not permitted to idle buses
for more than five minutes.
The next criteria is whether the operation
and pursuance of the use will cause undo
interference with the orderly enjoyment of the
public of parking or of recreational facilities.
There are no public parking or recreational
facilities in the vicinity of this site.
The next is the necessity for a tuminus
surface space parking, as I have explained to you,
it's going to be completely paved.
The next is whether a hazard to life, limb
or property because of fire, flood, erosion or
panic may be created. It's not in a flood zone;
the building will comply with all building code
requirements, and with regard to panic, this is
not a site that is going to be highly occupied.
It's certainly not residential, it's only
employees.
The next is whether the use or structures
to be used therefore will cause an overcrowding of
land or an undo concentration of population. And
as I explained to you, the only people that will
be on the site are the employees.
The next is whether the plot area is
sufficient, appropriate and adequate for the use
and reasonably anticipated operation and expansion
thereof. Mr. Mensch has already explained to you
the issue. This is not an expansion sort of
issue. These buses are specifically for the
Mattituck-Cutchogue School District; no other
operations will take place on this site.
Moreover, I'd like to point out to you that the
plot area is more than sufficient. The limit of
lot coverage in the LI zone is 30 percent, and we
are proposing 7.5 percent.
The next criterion is whether the use to
be operated is unreasonably near to a church,
school, theater, recreational area or other place
of public assembly. There are none in the
vicinity of the site.
The next is whether the site of the
proposed use is particularly suitable; I think I
have testified to this with regard to the
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character of the neighborhood several times.
The next is whether adequate buffer yards
and screening can and will be provided, as we have
explained there's a buffer along the front, and we
will put buffer vegetation along all of our fence
lines.
The next is whether adequate provision can
and will be made for the collection and disposal
of storm water runoff sewage, refuse and other
liquid, solid or gaseous wastes. With regard to
storm water runoff, we are going to install dry
wells as there are calculations on the plan. As I
have explained to you the depth to groundwater is
approximately 44 feet. So there is adequate
separation between the bottom of the dry wells and
the water table to allow the proper filtration.
And sewage is obviously on-site sanitary in
accordance with Article 6, and again, solid waste
will be collected by a private hauler.
The next is whether the natural
characteristics of the site are such that the use
may interfere with them. The property has
basically successional vegetation on it, and there
are no wetlands. It's in an approved subdivision.
The soils are suitable, as I have explained
several times, the depth to groundwater is
sufficient. So I would respectfully submit to you
that this will not adversely affect any natural
resources in the area.
So basically I would submit to you that
the granting of this application would comply with
all the requirements of Sections 100-263 and 264
of the code which set forth the requirements for
the granting of the special exception.
If you have any questions, I'll be happy
to answer them.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jerry?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The only concern
I have always had is going number one, meaning
this Board going number one before any of the
Planning Board aspects are completed -- and, in
fact, it's questionable to you Miss Elkowitz and
to Mr. Russo -- we have had in the past to reopen
these applications to add some different
situations that the Planning Board may have
thought of or the possibility that the Zoning
Board may not be totally overjoyed with the entire
screening aspect. In the past, in applications
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that don't concern special exceptions, we have
reserved the right to enhance the screening, so
there may be issues that we may be discussing with
the Town attorney between new and the time we
actually veto on this application er the
Chairperson, I'm net putting her in the hot seat,
say we're holding it in abeyance until such time
that you have further meetings with the Planning
Board regarding this application -- I don't
knew.
MR. RUSSO: The memo that I addressed to
you was the memo that we received last evening
late in the day as to the Planning Beard's
concerns. All of the applications that are cited
in there - there were four points pointed out in
the memo -- all ef the applications are in
process. We did net, as I indicated, file the
Planning Board application in its totality because
we weren't clear whether er net this Board would
be granting the special exception, and te incur
those expenses without knowing that we were
allowed te proceed is why we didn't ge there. If
this Board wanted to grant the special exception
knowing that it could go forward reserving the
right te come back or review it again, we would be
happy te consent te that.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want te
say this te you in general. I am a resident of
the Mattituck-Cutchogue School District. I have
never taught in the Mattituck-Cutchogue School
District, I hold a teacher's license to teach in
any school district in the state of New York, and
I am certainly net adverse in any way to this
application, but I only have voiced those concerns
that I just mentioned.
HR. RUSSO: And recognize that the prior
operator of this particular bus service te the
community passed away within the last 12 months,
which is another reason the school district turned
because of the situation te try and bring in
another operator te immediately help out. It's
not the largest school distr±ct out here and it is
an effort and with the costs incurred te try and
maintain a bus service, this is the reason why
they came and went to a reliable company that was
working in several other areas with 35 years ef
experience to attract them out here, who would
make a commitment to improving what is going on in
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this particular school district and in the
community, knowing the reputation of that
particular company. So I hope that would help
you.
I also have for you, which I will pass up,
just the Health Department status, because we are
processed and we did receive that, and Miss
Elkowitz' resume an expert to qualify for the
testimony under 100-263 and 264. If there are any
~ther questions, I'd be happy to address them.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: No other questions.
I've raised my concerns.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: No other questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No. I think that
granting this special exception as applied for
wouldn't be adverse to anything against the town
and that this is probably the only place in town
that you could have a bus terminal. They simply
just aren't allowed in other areas. As far as
screening, requiring additional screening, I
understand these are yellow buses and they're not
going to look the best, but I'm sure they're going
to be kept clean. And in all honesty, they're
yellow buses, we'd probably have to have 14 or 15
foot trees to hide those buses, and I think that's
a burden we shouldn't be imposing on an industrial
area next to a landfill, next to a storage place
and whatever else is there, Tom's place, which is
grinding stumps and everything else. So I would
like to see this Board grant it as applied.
I just have a question concerning the use
of this. Say that the contract falls through,
would there Be any -- could this be, and maybe you
would have to describe it to me - like the Omni
over in Southampton where you have passengers,
people coming and boarding buses at this building
you have here and shipping them off to
Pennsylvania or what have you?
HR. RUSSO: If you read your code section
under 100-141 it describes your land use
regulations and outlines all the uses that would
be permitted. When you look at the criterion
here, it says that it's truck or bus terminals for
garages, parking facilities and loading docks. It
does not indicate that it could be a
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transportation terminal in which people could come
and have to be able to park their car or be
dropped off and then in turn go from that point to
points west.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't think that
transportation terminal is defined in our code.
MR. RUSSO: No. But I would certainly
indicate that if someone came to the Town of
Southold, if the bus transportational facility was
terminated for whatever reason, whoever was going
to move forward and try and invest in acquiring
the property for a different use, would have to
come into the Planning Department, the Building
Department and discuss what that proposed use is
and seek a change of use or a site plan amendment
to accommodate that. This parking on the site is
strictly related to the size of the building, to
the number of employees that are coming to and
from. This is not a use that is going to generate
visitors to the site. Even the school district if
it came would only come on an annual basis or
semi annual basis to inspect that everything's in
order, and that they're getting adequate service.
This is not something whereby you would have other
than employees coming there or people who are
coming in for interview.
So my response to you would be that they
would have to be back to the Town, not maybe
necessarily to you, but to the Town to seek a
change of use and modify whatever's going on on
the site.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't see that in
our code, honestly. I think once we grant this it
could be a bus terminal. But that's not for you
to guarantee us, that's for us to clarify.
MR. RUSSO: I think that's something you
would have to discuss with your legal counsel and
Town attorneys.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Say in our decision
we place something like that, this is for school
bus use only.
MR. RUSSO: That's fine. It wouldn't be a
problem for the applicant. It's a concern, it's a
meritorious concern and I don't believe that would
be an issue.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: You could
limit the grant or the permit or the exception to
the use as applied for.
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BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't want it
restricted just to Mattituck. I don't want us to
say it's just for Mattituck, and it benefits them.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: They could go
to Greenport.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd like to see
them come to Greenport. I grew up with Mr. Brown,
and I knew them very well, competition is good.
It's nice to have another place. That's what I'm
trying to get at. I don't want to restrict them
in any way, that's what this is for.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Is there anyone else in
the audience who would like to comment on this
application? If not, I'd like to make a motion to
close the hearing and reserve decision until
later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next application is for
Barton and Pat Johnson, Bayview Drive, East
Marion. Is there anyone who would like to speak
on behalf of this application? For a demo and
reconstruction of a home.
MS. STEELMAN: Nancy Steelman, Samuels and
Steelman Architects. I will be very brief on this
one. We have received a Trustees permit for this
property. I have a copy for your file, if you
would like it. Basically to give a very brief
overview on this application, we are seeking a
variance because we are encroaching within the 75
feet of the bulkhead. There is an existing house
currently on the property. It's approximately now
59 feet from the bulkhead. We have basically
maintained this house, the new house to be in that
same general area. We're not encroaching any
closer to that area. The Nouse was built, the
original house was built approximately the end of
the 1940s. It's been a very long time. It's a
very dense community. A lot of the houses are
very close to the bulkheads. The adjacent
neighbor's house is 47 feet off the existing
concrete wall. So we're looking for relief on
this, but we don't feel like we're creating any
additional problems in that area. If I can answer
any questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I'm familiar with the
area, they are all bunched together. Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No. It looks like,
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what is that an outdoor shower on the property
line?
MS. STEELMAN: Yes, that's all going, that
is all part of the existing house.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I have.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: No questions at this
time.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I saw the site.
is a unique piece of property. I can see why
you're going to cock the house logistically
wise. I was trying to get an idea as I was
looking at it, the old versus new, but it seems
It
the majority of the new house will be seaward side
of the existing except for that one little corner.
MS. STEELMAN: Yes. One little corner and
we're 70 feet on the far corner on the southeast
side.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: It says new
terrace, and that's consisted of a grade, pergola
above it?
MS. STEELMAN: Right on grade, no pergola,
no structures other than just that little terrace
that is seaward of the house.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: That's on grade of
the patio, and it's a total demo.
MS. STEELMAN: Yes. On grade with the
patio and a total demo.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: No other questions.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Footprint will be
slightly different? New foundation?
MS. STEELMAN: Yes, new foundation, the
house is so old, it doesn't make sense to reuse
the foundation.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jerry?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I was to the
site, I personally would have centered it more on
the property, but you're not denied for side yard
so there's nothing we can say about that.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I think the grade
kept them seaward because of the topography of
that one.
MS. STEELMAN: Right. It's a good almost
12 feet same the high point of the site to the
bulkhead. And we're really trying to keep it in
that same general area otherwise we'd be
excavating further into that hill.
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CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Is there anyone in the
audience that wishes to comment on this
application? If not, I'll make a motion to close
the hearing and reserve decision until later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next hearing is for
Michael Zevits down on West Lane for a new
house. Bruce?
MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson, Suffolk
Environmental Consulting for the applicant,
Michael Zevits. I'm just going to pass up two
items here and work through this as quickly as I
can.
This is an application that seeks variance
relief in a number of areas to accommodate a 1,260
square foot house with a front deck. We're
seeking a variance from Little Peconic Bay Road.
We should be 11 feet off that. There is a 50 foot
right of way that comes across the property to the
north. The lot is an approximate half acre lot.
And there's a variance of 29 feet from the front
porch to the 50 foot right of way.
What we're doing in this application is
we're trying to treat Little Peconic Bay Road as a
side yard. The Little Peconic Bay Road is
actually a gravel driveway, and the 50 foot right
of way you see there is really where the actual
access to the property is and that also is a
driveway. This is part of a four lot development
that was created and held by the Zevits family.
Adjacent to the property and to the west is a
developed parcel of similar size with a similar
house on it that was built by his brother Joseph.
And behind it is another dwelling that is really
the Zevits family house. I've given you an aerial
photograph that shows how they set up. The design
on this is to try to create space between the two
Zevits brothers so that the family house that sits
behind it will maintain the view it's always
maintained.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: They don't get
along?
MR. ANDERSON: They get along great. And
the lot behind it will actually go to the Zevits'
sister, who has no plans to develop it at the
present time and may not for many years perhaps,
but this is a four lot division, if you will.
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It's created by the family and it will be
maintained in the family, I can't say forever, but
for as long as it possibly can. It was I believe
purchased in the '60s for that purpose.
There is one affected neighbor, and I
handed up a letter from that affected neighbor who
expresses no objection whatsoever. And it's
important to note that as the side yard of 11 feet
that we'll call it the eastern lot line, that we
wish to treat as 11 feet and encroaching all the
way into Little Peconic Bay is heavily vegetated
with cedar trees and that is why there's really no
real visual impediment in doing what we're asking
do. I had Michael approach his neighbor and make
sure that there be no objection and he procured
that letter and I've placed that into the record.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Whose right of way is that and
why is it there?
MR. ANDERSON: That right of way belongs
to the Zevitses, and it's really just a grassed
area and there's a driveway that comes in and just
splits off to the various houses. It's just their
access, access the property to the west. There
really is no access whatsoever from Little Peconic
Bay Road nor will there be in the future because
all the four lots enjoy that access. That
actually runs to the west and eventually hooks up
with the I guess it's called the Esplanade, which
is the main entrance into Angel Shores development
also to the west of it. The driveway is probably
14 feet wide gravel, and it served the community
well. No plans to make it any larger, improve it
anymore than it already is improved. Again, the
whole point here is to do a coordinated
development among the Zevits family so everyone
can be accommodated.
That in a nutshell is our case.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: So you're counting that
right of way really as your setback to Little
Peconic Bay Road; you're counting on that 10 foot
to add another foot for the setback to Little
Peconic Bay Road?
MR. ANDERSON: Right, it's 11 feet.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael? Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So according to
your survey and according to your explanation,
that right of way is only on that one lot?
MR. ANDERSON: You speak of the 50 foot
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right of way?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: 10 foot?
MR. ANDERSON: The 10 foot right ef way
was a pedestrian right of way theoretically for
the back lot, which has never been used and never
will be used because it's maintained in the
family, and the family just walks down to the
beach. And we have kids involved, and we have no
plans to clear it or do anything with it.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: But as you said in
the future you can't predict what will happen, se
Lot 2, we'll call it, that's their right of way to
access the beach, if it did change hands.
MR. ANDERSON: Right. By the same token
they'd be buying into an existing set ef facts. I
highly doubt that this will ever be broken up but
theoretically it could, and if that were te
happen, whoever were to purchase the back lot
would be purchasing under that set ef facts, and
in any event would be able te walk down Peconic
Bay Avenue te the bulkhead there.
The final thing that I haven't mentioned
is the deck would be set back from the bulkhead at
63 feet, but that really refers te almost to what
is really a bulkhead return, if you will.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: It's where the
access for the stairs were.
MR. ANDERSON: Yes. But these stairs
really come off ef Little Peconic Bay Read.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Is there any reason
why they couldn't shift that house further to the
west, they're all family?
HR. ANDERSON: They're trying to
accommodate, all the family members are working
together, often times you ask me will alternative
relief be acceptable, and the answer is it will.
This is just an ideal layout for this development
for this family, and my thinking on it was,
although self created, the real person who would
be impacted would be the adjacent property owner
on Little Pecenic Bay Read. Se what I said to the
applicant was, if that affected property owner
voices no objection, then I'm prepared to make an
application. If there is going te be an objection
then I think the application would be
significantly weakened.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Because they are
putting their driveway furthest west as you can,
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right against I guess it's his brother Joseph's
house. I don't know how the rest of the Board
feels, but I think you need to move it over a
little bit there. This is a new construction.
I'm look in the future, Bruce, in case someone did
sell it, they would have a one foot setback off
the right of way in case someone did exercise the
right to clear that and use it on Lot 2.
MR. ANDERSON. I understand that concern.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Bruce, do you have a
deed for that right of way?
MR. ANDERSON: I believe it would be
incorporated into the deed, I would be happy to
supply that.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Would you, please. But
I would agree with Vincent, if you could move that
over a bit.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: The right of way runs
with the property, right?
MR. ANDERSON: Corect, but from a layout
standpoint, it's almost rather silly, because if
you were on the back undeveloped lot and assuming
it was sold, which again, is very much a long shot
considering this was purchased by Mr. Zevits, now
deceased, for his kids in the '60s, the natural
way to access that area would really be down
through Little Peconic Bay Road, that's where you
would go. It's a driveway, it's so easy you have
the steps there and a little beach at the road
ending.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: It would be the
right of the person who owned Lot 2 at the time to
exercise it if they chose.
MR. ANDERSON. They could go either way.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, no, that 10
foot right of way enhances that back lot.
Certainly it enhances it because it gives them the
right of way down to the water.
MR. ANDERSON: I agree. But the applicant
owns the right of way and the applicant is saying
enhancement er not, it's unimportant to us.
BOARD HEMBER DINIZIO: But the importance
to us, Bruce, is if someone se chooses that back
let, se chooses to use that right ef way, they
have every right to clear 10 feet, which would be
a foot away from the house, if that's
proposed. Can the applicant ge five feet away
from that right of way, 15 feet away from the
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property line?
MR. ANDERSON: Sure they could is the
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not a problem
as far as cesspools are concerned?
MR. ANDERSON: No. If we're talking about
shifting it over five feet, eight feet, something
like that.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: It would be four
additional feet. Say you go from 11 to 15.
MR. ANDERSON: In real life that's not
going to matter. I mean, they've set it this way
because it's ideal. They actually wanted 10 feet,
and I said I really don't think you should put it
on the line, so that's where the 11 came from.
But quite honestly, if it were 15 feet off the
Little Peconic Bay Road, at the end of the day and
in real life, it's not a significant impact on the
overall development.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: You're not going to
be hampered in any way constructing a house in
that area?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Not a deal breaker.
MR. ANDERSON: No.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand why
you have the driveway the way it is, because you
have all the these leaching pools; you can't be
driving over those.
MR. ANDERSON: Maybe they don't even put
in the driveway because you have te understand,
the Zevits arrive and they just park. It's a
family compound.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, say 15 feet
from Little Pecenic Bay Boulevard, it won't hurt
the construction ef this house?
MR. ANDERSON: No, but it will cause us to
amend applications.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: It will give you
alternative relief.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jerry?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Bruce, were
these lots created by will?
MR. ANDERSON: They were initially created
I believe as a subdivision. There was a time
where they theoretically merged. This goes back
many years and I believe Mr. Olsen came before the
Beard te have them unmerged. And that runs with
the land, but then what happened Mr. Zevits, who
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created the property, passed away. And then the
individual lots were gifted to the kids.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: By will?
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: In '97 they came
before our Board.
MR. ANDERSON: That could be because I
believe he died in '95 or so.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: And the applicant
has confirmed substandard lots.
MR. ANDERSON:
you think because a 50
four lots is excessive.
a major subdivision to
20, 30, whatever.
It's not as substandard as
foot right of way to access
That's what you need for
access however many lots,
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. ANDERSON: And the right way is kept
free and open and everyone uses it.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Is there anyone else in
the audience who would like to comment on this
application? If not, I'll make a motion to close
the hearing and reserve decision until later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next application is for
Premium Wine Group. Miss Wickham?
MS. WICKHAM: Good morning, my name is
Abigail Wickham, and I am representing Premium
Wine Group. I'm here today with Russell Hearn,
who is the manager of this facility and Nancy
Steelman, who is the architect. And any of us can
answer any questions that I don't hit in my
presentation.
I think the first thing I would like to
do, and I realize you have a long agenda today,
but I'd like to take a minute to tell you how this
facility works. It is a production facility for
the making of wine for vineyards who do not have
their own wineries. PWG makes their wines
according to their standard specifications and
modifications that the individual vineyards
provides. The grapes come into the facility;
they're crushed; they're fermented in tanks,
barreled, bottled and shipped out. There is no
room for onsite bottle storage. It's strictly a
production operation. Lieb Vineyards does have a
small tasting room in the front of the east
building, but this is not affected by this
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operation.
If I could just show you the floor plan
for the moment. Do you have the site plan in
front of you? The east building contains a crush
pad on the rear, that's the one along Cox Lane.
The tractors or trucks will pull in with the
grapes in the rear. They're unloaded. They put
the grapes through the crushers and the juice is
pumped into the tanks, which are located in that
east building, to ferment. There are also tanks
located in the center area between the two
buildings which are used for short term storage
and fermenting of wine.
The wine that goes into barrels, that
operation is handled in the center now between the
two buildings; the barrels are filled and emptied
outside. The barrel storage then goes into the
west building, which has a small and what they
found to be an inefficient bottling operation in
the front corner.
The wine that has to be bottled, which is
in the tanks in the east building, has to be
physically pumped out and over to the other
building to the bottling line. Outside sometimes
they have to show up in the winter and shovel the
area before they can start their operation.
So the purpose of the new building is to
consolidate what goes on in the middle there so
the two buildings can have a unified production.
It is not to add more tank space. It is
merely to facilitate the production that happens
between the two buildings. Right now they're
opening and closing doorways. They're doing work
outside. This is an all year round operation, so
it has hampered them considerably. So they
basically want to fill in a portion of that center
space.
Now the proposed location that we have
shown of the -- I'm going to call it the addition
for now, is actually stepped back six feet from
the front line of the building on the Sound Avenue
side. It does have a columned front porch and the
roofline comes down to the frontline, and they did
that in order to create an differential facade and
make it look nice. But the building itself is
stepped back six feet. What is not shown clearly
on the plans that you have is the fact that the
roof that is going to be over that new addition
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will slope back considerably from Sound Avenue at
a ratio of one foot for each 12 feet. Right now
on the front of the building, if you look at it
from the side, this shed roof projects out towards
Sound Avenue. So when you put the building here,
that shed roof is going to be only at a very
slight slope as it moves back from the building
over the porch and the front part of the building.
Then it will raise at a five to 12 foot ratio. So
when you face that building from Sound Avenue,
you'll see the pitched roof on the west, you'll
see a setback on the building with the columns and
the porch with a very slow roof going away from
you and then it goes up, then a separate
pitch. So there are three separate facades that
are created.
Also I want to indicate that the visual
impact from Sound Avenue, which is where the
frontage is that we're talking about is
dramatically lessened for a couple of reasons.
First of all, the building line is not parallel to
Sound Avenue; it is skewed away from Sound Avenue.
The building is completely screened from the east
side by the trees and the vines that are there.
And the building if you note is already set back
135 feet from Sound Avenue on the west end and 200
feet on the east end, whereas the requirement is
100 feet. We have considered seriously pushing
the addition further back to set it back further.
I want to explain to you why that wasn't
proposed because of the method in which the
operation occurs. This is the addition here.
Here is Sound Avenue. The addition is this
section here. Right now, in the barrel building,
they have their bottling line-up here. As I said,
they're pumping the wine from the tanks across the
open area into the bottling line. The new
bottling line would be here. Originally if it
were all flush, it would have had an L-shaped
bottling line room that worked well. They pushed
it back further the six feet to try and set back
that building a little bit, so they're already
off kilter a little bit in that room. If they
push it back any further, they don't have that
flow of bottling area and they lose that tank
space here, and really the only place that these
tanks could go is over here behind the crush pad,
and we feel it's kind of visible to Cox Lane. And
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right now they're tucked in behind there and they
don't show too well.
The reason that tank storage is
important -- stainless, I want you to understand
they are stainless steel tanks at 15 feet high,
there's five acres of grapes in each tank, that's
a lot of grape, and to move it back further and to
lose those tanks, they would not be able to
accommodate it.
Another alternative that we discussed was
pushing the front of the building out on the west
side, so you would have it offset. The reason
that didn't make sense is now you're pushing the
building closer to the road. We have the legal
right to do it, but we don't think that effects a
good solution, it pushes the building too much
closer to the road, and it would also be an
excessive construction cost for the amount of
space that you have.
The applicant does have the right to build
a separate building in there, which could probably
about be about 58 feet wide. Again, that is not a
significantly feasible alternative because they
would have double walls right next to each other,
it would be extremely expensive; it would be
inefficient from a heating standpoint; they would
need another heating plant; they would still be
going in and out all the time and it just wouldn't
work.
So what we would like to ask the Board is
that they consider the alternative that we have
proposed recognizing that the porch recess does
create a setback and we would ask the architect,
Nancy Steelman, who as you know is quite talented
to do these design features, to come up with a
plan with the Planning Board that they might be
able to accommodate that would soften the effect
of that building.
The only other thing we would ask is that
if you did make us move the building back, we
would want the ability to put those tanks in the
back so we don't lose 50 acres of grapes
basically. And we think that that is not the best
solution, but it could be done.
One thing that I think is important to
note is that Sound Avenue travels in terms of
visual impact is not focused on the front of that
building as you go by, they're focused on the
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intersection. The westbound people, as I say,
won't see it because ef the trees and the vines in
front. The eastbound side dues see mostly the
west side ef that building, and they have put
trees up in accordance with their site plan and
buffers. If you wanted more buffer on the west
side ef the building, we could certainly de that.
I think that the 60 foot law that we're
addressing here was primarily aimed at strip
malls, and the LB zeno which we're in does net
allow strip malls. We're not going te be seeing
that kind of usage. We're not going to have
retail traffic. We're not going to have people
going by trying te see hew many different stores
are in there, and the building have three
different segments that are architecturally
dissimilar, it's not a straight line of a
building.
What I want to address next, and fairly
briefly, is the economics of this expansion and
why they need it, so you can understand why it's
important to the facility. The winery is designed
to accommodate the production ef small vineyards.
It is designed to accommodate 500 acres of grapes.
The average vineyard size that they accommodate is
between 25 and 40 acres, small vineyards; eleven
ef them are in Southold town, 11 ef the 13, and
they're expecting when they lose one right ever
the line in Riverhead shortly due tea winery
construction that they will replace that with
several mere vineyards in Seutheld town. The
existing vineyards that they accommodate have
farms en Oregon Read, Hary's Read, Wickham Avenue,
Elijah's Lane, Bridge Lane, Yeung's Avenue and New
Suffolk Avenue, fur example. And those are places
where you want to minimize having wineries and
tasting rooms, gift shops and all the catering and
other things that are attendant on wineries in
residential areas. And you also will encourage
agriculture by the promotion of this facility.
The facility dues strongly support the development
rights program in Southold town. The farms that
they service readily adapt to the sale of
development rights because they don't have to
build wineries or held out land to do that en
their own farms. And if they can't have this type
ef production facility, in speaking te the
producers, Hr. Hearn has come up with the opinion
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and has been told by them, they would either have
to find a way to build their own wineries or
basically be forced out of business.
We also will not see any significant
increase in traffic. This is to efficiently
handle the current planned production that they
have contemplated. Most of the employees are
Southold town residents, seven of them out of 10.
And the producer vineyards that they employ a
larger number of people locally.
Their major production dates for harvest
are September to November, it's about a two month
peak period. The rest of the time they're
strictly a 9:00 to 5:00 Monday to Friday
operation. They don't have weekends. They have a
tractor trailer truck that comes in about once a
week to either pick up wine or deliver supplies,
and originally there was a little bit of
difficulty when the drivers were learning what the
route was and how to get in and out. Cars on Cox
Lane were a little impatient waiting to go around
them, but they have taken an active role in trying
to address that problem with drivers and they
think that that has been fixed.
The building height is 29 feet to the
ridge. It's 16 feet to the soffets and a mean of
23 feet. This is really an exciting facility for
the north fork, because it does production of
these vineyards and farming operation. It
provides a great tax base, one much greater than
the owners appreciate, but it does provide a good
tax base for the town. I welcome your comments.
I don't know if Nancy Steelman would like to
comment. I did mean to give you a copy of the
photograph that shows the actual shed roof. This
is the existing building now - I'm sorry, we only
have one of these - this is the current space
where the building will be added, and this is the
shallow shed roof that is currently in the front
and that's what will actually go up for -- Nancy,
how far back does the shed roof go?
MS. STEELMAN: Thirty, the ridge is 60.
MS. WICKHAM: Thirty feet before you start
going up to the higher elevation.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a
question?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Sure.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Miss Wickham,
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why are you matching the ridge on the two roofs?
I see there's a mezzanine area shown in the plan,
and I noticed that mezzanine area shows storage
and so on; is that the reason?
MS. WICKHAM: That is one reason to
accommodate a partial second floor. Part of it
will be open in the production area, part of it
will accommodate a conference room and a storage
area, and that's important to get that in. If we
set the building back, I don't think I mentioned
this and maybe Nancy wants to elaborate, it does
create roof issues in terms of how you would build
that. If we took the porch off so you saw the
setback more dramatically, the front part of that
addition would be higher, because the shed roof
wouldn't come over it as much, and you'd lose that
column effect that kind of sets that apart as a
different architectural style. But that's the
reason that roof is like that. And when you look
at the plan in front of you, it's a big roof way
across. I don't think if you look at that roof
you will find that it is that imposing in real
life.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Are any of the
mechanics that are in between the buildings being
moved or this would be covering those mechanics
and will stay there, meaning the plumbing, the
piping, the tanks?
MS. WICKHAM: The piping is just hosing.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: The large stainless
steel vessels there.
MS. WICKHAM: The stainless steel vessels
that are in the center here are holding tanks and
they will remain.
MR. HEARN: Russell Hearn, Premium Wine
Group. The new addition is in an area where there
is nothing currently. So the tanks that are there
would remain behind the new addition. So we
already have tanks in place at the north end, at
the rear of where this would be. So from Sound
Avenue now, if you drove past Premium Wine Group,
you would see the tanks physically behind where if
this construction, when this construction would be
possible, it would block the current view of tanks
anyway.
MS. WICKHAM: So right now where they're
pumping across and emptying and filling barrels,
they're going to have that enclosed now. So that
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will continue, now it will be enclosed.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: How high is it to the
peak of the existing buildings?
MS. WICKHAM: Twenty-nine feet.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: And the height of
the new addition to the ridge?
MS. WICKHAM: Twenty-nine feet to the
ridge once you get past the shed roof.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Did you say there
would be no increase in capacity as a consequence
of this addition?
MS. WICKHAM: That's basically true.
MR. HEARN: The physical footprint of the
property and the layout of the concrete that's
already established and was built in 2000, allows
for all the capacity that we would go towards.
This allows us to be much more efficient to do
that capacity. So it's not looking to expand what
we are able to do, it's looking to do what we will
do more efficiently.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: So there will be no
more bottles of wine per year as a consequence of
this addition?
MR. HEARN: We have not reached our
capacity at this stage. So every year production
has increased as more vineyards have come on line.
So we have the physical footprint to add more
tanks in this particular area. This would not add
any additional capacity.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: So essentially
there's a trade off in a way between that issue of
efficiency and perhaps even the advantage of
shielding some of these shiny tanks that are in
the back as a consequence of the addition there
would be 180 foot continuous building across the
front. However, as you point out it's kind of a
practical loophole in the law, that these could be
instead of three 60 foot buildings called
cheek-by-jowl, they could be three 59 feet
buildings with a foot between any two ef them,
which surely would not make any aesthetic
difference. Se that's one way to look at it I
suppose.
MS. WICKHAM: There's another point I want
te make, and that is that the 60 feet, applies to
only one street. And if you look at the Cox Lane
side, that building length is 130 feet. So I
think the variance almost could have been
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structured in terms of that being the variance
that we needed, 130 feet rather than 180 feet,
which minimizes the amount of variance that we're
seeking.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Then you would need
two variances.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No. The original
variance was for County Road 48. We based our
decision, really all it was the decision that said
our law says that the 60 foot rule only applies to
one street, and that was the big thing. If we're
saying that, County Road 48 is the way that this
was built, that 60 foot. We didn't grant any
variances.
MS. WICKHAM: No, you just made an
interpretation. But, maybe it's a technicality
and we shouldn't get into it, but what I'm saying
technically we could claim 180 feet as the other
side, and the one street we're looking at is
130. I thought if it would assist the Board in
making a decision, fine, if not, let's go.
If you have a moment, I'd like to address
a couple of other appeals, Lavcorp, 4882 is the
Peconic Bay Vineyards in Cutchogue, that allowed a
203 foot building, and I think as I read the
decision, part of that was based on the fact that
there were different facade elements to that
facility.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Where was this?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: It's never been built.
MS. WICKHAM: It was not built, but it was
a variance that was granted in Cutchogue, Peconic
Bay Vineyard across from King Kullen shopping
center. You recently granted Mallin, not far away
from there. That was a smaller building, but you
allowed them to have a building length which was
almost a little over 50 percent of the width of
the property. Our building length is a little
over 50 percent of the width of our property, 108
to 334. Jim Drake's building up on Cox Lane and
48, that's huge. I couldn't find anything on
that. I'm only assuming maybe that was
pre-existing before '95, do you think? BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MS. WICKHAM: In the area we have the Twin
Forks Fence building, which is in the application
that states that width, and the Wendy's Deli
building also states that width. So that is not
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out of keeping with the provisions.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Gail, would you
have copies of any of those maps for the file?
MS. WICKH~kM: I'm sorry, I didn't make the
original application, so I'm not sure.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: The ones earlier,
the Peconic Winery on the Main Road and for
Wendy's.
MS. WICKHAM: Would you like copies of the
decisions?
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Yes, that would be
helpful.
MS. WICKHAM: Would you like several
copies?
BOARD MEMBER ORL~kNDO: One for the file.
MS. WICKHAM: I'll get these to you today.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: The ones you're
referring to as part of your presentation.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: It's probably too
late to make any change, but as I understand,
where Wendy's Deli is is a strip mall, right? MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: So I don't know that
it would strengthen your application by saying
that it's consistent with an adjacent strip mall.
Trying to distinguish it by arguing that it is not
in fact a strip mall or anything like it.
MS. WICKHAM: It's not a strip mall and it
doesn't look like a strip mall.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: So I'm saying to
appeal to the existing next door strip mall could
backfire as an argument.
MS. WICKHAM: I think it's not out of
keeping with the neighborhood, length.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Alas.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I would like him to
just disclose that one of the principals is a very
good friend of mine. I have no interest in his
building or anything like that, but I did want to
disclose that. I just have a question about the
roofline. The peak of the roof is going to run
opposite between the two buildings.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Like a reverse
gable.
right
here.
MS. WICKH~kM: The addition portion will be
here and there will be a roofline across
Right now the existing roof is here and
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here. But this will be set way back. There will
be a dormer and shed so that will be set back
quite a way as well.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: How far is that set
back, Gall, so we can include that in the
decision?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: How far is it set
back from the peak and the two existing buildings
on the front yard; de you know what I mean? MS. STEELMAN: 30 feet.
MS. WICKHAM: 30 feet is where it
starts.
BOARD MEHBER DINIZIO: The height ef the
ridge where it meets the other ridge.
MS. WICKHAM: Sixty feet from the front.
BOARD MEMBER SIHON: Se that ridge is 60
feet te the north?
MS. WICKHA~: Yes. So you'll have a 1 by
12 shed reef for 30 feet, and then you'll have a 5
te 12 pitched roof for 30 feet back.
CHAIRWONLAN OLIVA: Jerry, did you have any
other comments?
BOARD MEHBER GOEHRINGER: No.
CHAIRWONL~N OLIVA: Does anyone in the
audience wish to comment en this application? If
net, I'll make a motion to close the hearing and
reserve decision until later.
{See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next hearing is for the
Hartins down en Meadow Beach Read, Mattituck.
MS. MOORE: You're very familiar with the
property from our prior hearings. We are at this
point working with the east side of the property.
The renovations ef the house took place. New they
are concentrating on landscaping and the
accessory uses en this property. We have an
existing pool, which you have in your file a
history that that pool was actually constructed
with the benefit of a variance that was granted
many years age. The pool is going to be enlarged
and it is actually going to be placed behind a
gazebo. The gazebo is not actually going te be
connected te the dwelling, to the house, it is
going te be separated by a couple inches. But it
will be a self-sustaining gazebo. It's really a
covered barbecue area, living area for the family,
all part ef an overall landscape plan that I know
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you have the drawings in your file. Done by Ural
and Ural is here with me to answer any questions
you may have. We've included everything here
because the right of way, we have setbacks to the
right of way, the right of way being access to
some homes that are on the -- it's an offshoot of
the bay, it's the marsh area behind. The hot tub
that is presently there is going to be relocated,
so we included the hot tub. The shed that is
presently there is going to be converted from a
tool shed to a changing room, a very small
changing room but nonetheless it's going to be
changed.
MR. TALGERT: The storage shed is supposed
to be enlarged by a little bit.
MS. MOORE: The existing is 8' by 12' and
it's going to be enlarged to 10' by 12' The
design of this pool and landscaping, it's on a
patio area and as you get to the back of the
house, the patio, the stone patio, the fence
actually is going to be hidden from view so that
it all aesthetically matches the rest of the
landscaping. I'm sorry, Ural, I'm butchering your
description, so he will more eloquently describe
the design. It's very well described on the
drawings. Do you have any questions?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes. Since it's
my file and I have to write the decision, how much
larger, how big is the storage shed now, Ural, and
how much larger is it going to be?
MR. TALGERT: The existing shed is 8' by
12' and it's going to be enlarged to 10' by 12'
MS. MOORE: Mr. Goehringer, it would
probably be easier for you to follow site plan
page 1.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's what I
have. I didn't see the dimensional changes on
there.
north.
MS. MOORE: Look at the notation to the
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's page 2
actually.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The proposed hot
tub relocation, how much of a relocation is that
going to be?
MR. TALGERT: About five feet, moving it
towards the bay side to the south. At present
it's right against the storage shed. I just also
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want to make the comment that the original
application before the Martins bought the property
was for a pool only from this Board, I believe.
The storage shed was added to by the prior owner
but without getting any permits. So we're in
front of the Board also to legalize that.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The storage
shed?
MR. TALGERT: Yes. Not the hot tub.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm going to
tell you, Ural, we took 45 minutes of testimony
from the prior owner, who was a medical doctor who
wanted to know why the building inspector denied
this in the front yard area. Drove me absolutely
crazy.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: When he asked you
questions about the hot tub, you said, no, not the
hot tub.
storage
that we
owner.
MS. MOORE: No, he was talking about the
shed, the storage shed was the structure
didn't find a permit for by the prior
The hot tub may or may not have needed an
actual building permit because it's a portable
unit.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: It might need a
variance though, but you're including that.
MS. MOORE: Yes, we're including that.
Again, it came with the house and at the time they
put it up, I don't know what the Building
Department interpretation was clearly today we
have included it.
MR. TALGERT: To answer Jerry's question
}low far it's moving approximately, moving six to
eight feet. I don't know how far exactly but it's
moving closer to the water.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So how are we
going to depict it on the site plan? MS. MOORE: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: What was the
reasoning to expanding a 40 foot pool to a 50 foot
pool?
MR. TALGERT: The Martins have children
who like to swim. We had to do some work to the
pool as it is. The pool, the way it is sloped is
on the site, all the rainwater from the pool site
to the house is sloping towards the house. So if
we had to rebuild this pool, the Martins decided,
well, why don't we make the pool a little bit
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bigger.
MS. MOORE: Keep in mind that this
property is more than three acres in size. The
variance with respect to the setback to the right
of way doesn't change. And under the old
interpretation, once you had the variance for the
setback to the right of way you could extend, but
now the interpretation is you're increasing the
non-conformity.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: I understand that.
If people will build out to the maximum they can,
depending on the size of their lot, that if they
had five acres then they would want 100 foot pool.
MS. MOORE: I guess that's the benefit of
owning five acres versus two.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: And one of the vices
for most of us.
MS. MOORE: It won't create any greater
impact given that the setback is already
established.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I never saw the
pool. Is this a gunite?
MR. TALGERT: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So I notice the
pillars on gazebo --
MR. TALGERT: Trellis structure.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- are going to
be placed in the pool, the pool is going to extend
into it?
MR. TALGERT: Between the house and the
pool is the terrace, the pillars will be built on
the terrace.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: They will not
protrude into the pool?
MS. MOORE: You're looking at planter
pots.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What type of
vegetation is going to be placed in between so as
not to cause a problem with the neighbor?
MR. TALGERT: At present there is a row of
cedar trees, actual two rows deep, about eight to
10 feet high right now. They run north to south
alongside the pool. They will remain as it is.
There's an existing fence line, that will remain.
We're taking down paving. Right on the drawing
you might see a dashed line on the sheet a little
higher, there's a dash line, that's the existing
pavement line. I'm pulling that pavement line
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back closer to the pool, so I'm pulling the pool
and everything closer back, but the existing
screening, the cedar trees are to remain.
MS. MOORE: To west of the evergreens it's
qoing to be converted to lawn and again the patio.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: My suggestion to
the Board is that at any time screening is
involved that the decision mirror the fact that
this screening has to be continuously
maintained. Any cedar trees that die will be
replaced with the same or similar vintage type.
MS. MOORE: That's been their goal here.
MR. TALGERT: The pool, anyone's pool is
personal property. You're running around with
your bathing suit. Right next door is the right
of way where the public can go down. You don't
want to show yourself off to the public, so I am
sure Mr. Martin will maintain those cedar trees
for the sake of privacy and also to screen out any
type of sound either coming from the road into the
property or from the property out toward the road.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Based upon this
enclosure that you're building, and the pool, the
changing room or whatever, do you anticipate any
future noise that may or may not have occurred on
site as it exists now?
MR. TALGERT: I think the amount of sound,
the existing sound is pool equipment, that is to
remain.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Where is that?
MR. TALGERT: Storage shed.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Righ~ behind the
storage shed.
MR. TALGERT: The only thing in addition
to is probably three kids running around screaming
and yelling. But that exists, so.
MS. MOORE: And the pool's already there.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I have no
questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: No questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I have no
questions.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Does anybody in the
audience wish to comment on this application?
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BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What are we
doing with the recharge of the pool water?
MR. TALGERT: Dry wells in the lawn area
to the west of the pool, and that's where the
water from the pool will go into.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you. When
the pool is backwashed?
MR. TALGERT: Yes. There's lots of
property for the dry wells.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I'll make a motion to
close the hearing and reserve decision until
later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Next hearing is for
Reddingtons on Bittersweet Lane for an area
variance.
MR. VANDENBERG: Richard VanDenBerg here
on behalf of the applicant who's with me today,
Michael Reddington. And we also have with us
Steven Garachi with us this afternoon.
The application I believe before the Board
is not only for an area variance but also for a
waiver of merger.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: No, the waiver of
merger has not been advertised with this
application. You have not had the property deeded
separately. You are not eligible for a lot
waiver. So you're here for the area variances for
lot sizes to reconfirm the sizes, as you have
advertised it and noticed it to the neighbors.
MR. VANDENBERG: Then we'll proceed with
what we can.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: The area variances take
to the Planning Board.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Yes, if the area
variances were granted you could proceed to the
Planning Board. There's a procedure for that.
MR. VANDENBERG: I misunderstood, I
apologize. With regard to the area variance then,
the property in question was a subdivision that
was brought before the Planning Board in 1969.
There was final approval that was rendered at that
time. The parcel originally and was for a number
of years held by the Romeo family and relatives.
And when the subdivision was approved for the five
lots, the two lots, which are the two we're
talking about with regards to Mr. Reddington,
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essentially comprised almost 32,000 square feet
per plot. It is R40 zoning there. The lot widths
are located on Bittersweet Lane in Cutchogue.
They are 160 feet in width and 200 feet in depth.
So other than the actual square footage of 40,000,
I believe that we are able to meet all of the
other bulk schedule criteria.
The issue presented itself when
Mr. Reddington, who had originally contracted to
purchase the two lots, there was a dispute that
arose with the sellers, that began back in 1998,
was the contract, and ultimately, the issue of the
purchase was resolved in 2003 with a decision from
the Supreme Court. The properties were then
closed on title with regard to the two properties
and then approached the issue with regard to the
sale of one of the lots. Originally
Mr. Reddington had intended to purchase these two
lots with the idea of constructing a home on one
of them. Unfortunately, the delay in connection
with the sale resulted in his constructing a home
nearby, but then when we began to look to sell the
first of the two lots, the issue of the size of
the lot and subsequently the issue of the area
variance came up.
I will say that the area over there on
Bittersweet is an area that is comprised of
generally half-acre size lots. There are some one
plus acre size lots that are also in the area.
There are even a couple smaller quarter acre size
lots that are not far away over on Pine Tree. So
with regard to whether or not there would be an
undesirable change, we don't believe that granting
the relief would create an undesirable change in
the character of the neighborhood because really
the houses that are located and the lots that are
located across the street from Bittersweet Lane
are the half acre lots, and these two three
quarter acre lots would be consistent with the
surrounding community.
With respect to the benefits sought by
Mr. Reddington and whether there was some other
feasible alternative to the relief that he is
seeking, we do not believe that there is any other
feasible alternative with regard to the fact that
when he purchased these two lots that he was
buying two lots, and the fact that we are in R40
zoning and that the requirement is 40,000 square
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feet and these are more or less 32,000 square feet
that's a variation in the neighborhood of 20
percent or less in terms of the area size, and
there's really no other alternative. There's not
a lot we can do in terms of purchasing any other
adjoining lots to make these conforming.
That also addresses the issue of whether
or not the relief requested is going to be
substantial. As I indicated on the bulk schedule
with regard to the front yard setbacks, the width
of the lots, depth of the lots, all of those
issues, other than the fact that we are looking at
a 32,000 square foot, three-quarter acre lot
appears to be the only issue that we're looking
for the relief with regards to the bulk schedule.
Again, whether granting this relief would
cause an adverse impact on the physical or
environmental aspect of the area, we don't believe
that that's the case. The area is pretty
sufficiently wooded. There's a lot of natural
vegetation and growth in the area. There are a
lot of -- for lack of a better term -- briar patch
areas that provide good natural screening and
coverage. With the current lot coverage
permitted, I think we calculated that you could
build a house as big as 6,000 square foot
theoretically. Understanding that this lot is
call it 20 percent undersized, the anticipated
construction of the home on this parcel really was
going to be no more than a 2,500 square foot
footprint or a 5,000 square foot home. So there
is really enough that's present on the lot,
probably the growth on the lot, it's mostly
deciduous, there is some evergreen on the lot, but
you could construct a home, meet all the setback
requirements and still provide sufficient amount
of natural screening for all the surrounding
neighbors. There's no wetlands on the lots, on
either of the two lots.
So again, there's really no adverse impact
to the physical or environmental conditions.
Mr. Reddington is here with regard to
speaking to you further on the issue of what the
economic impacts would be to him with regard to
the area variance as well.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I think my big problem
is access. The roads are in deplorable condition.
They're narrow. They don't even meet our
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standards for 15' by 15' for fire access. And
what could be done to upgrade these because
they're terrible.
MR. VANDENBERG: Suffolk County --
certainly what has happened to date, we've Number
one, gotten Suffolk County water to contract with
us to bring a line down Bittersweet Lane into the
area, so there would naturally be and certainly
are not opposed to some added issue with regard to
improving the access down Bittersweet.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: These roads are not
owned by the Town; am I correct?
MR. VANDENBERG: Correct.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Is there any
conversation or communication among the people on
all these dirt roads to set up a special district
and have all these roads brought up to code and
then float a bond and have it paid off through the
taxes?
MR. VANDENBERG: There hasn't been any
collective conversation with all the neighbors on
Horton. There is a small group that is kind of
some of the adjoining parcels to these two parcels
where there has been discussions with regard to
some improvements on the road. We haven't
involved the other neighbors on Bittersweet that
lead back to Pine Tree in that discussion, but
certainly that was one of the issues that I
figured there was going to have to be some
addressing of developing some sort of community
association or doing something to involve everyone
in the discussion.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: I would suggest that
what Ms. Oliva was pointing out there are both
advantages and disadvantages to having a private
road. If you have a private road, hence the
private association, then the roads that exist are
with the agreement, of all the people who live
there; and therefore it is certainly of concern to
everyone if more houses are going to be built on
those same substandard roads. So I would think
that the matter of consulting with the neighbors
is not something to be done afterwards but perhaps
before some of these issues can be considered by
the Town agencies.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I think certainly
our code does address private right of ways and I
believe there is a certain requirement. I don't
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think these roads meet it, but the Town does have
some say in how wide this has to be. Jerry, you
can correct me if I'm wrong. I know that we grant
right of ways, and I think the code enforcement
officer can go down there and make them, whoever
it is, comply with the Town standard is, I think
15 feet has to be cleared.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: That's correct.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Eleven top, maybe
it's 15 high, I don't know what it is. Now, of
course, we can base our decision on if that
doesn't happen, they don't get what they want. We
certainly are entitled to do that.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Or we can require a
280A access.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I don't know why
that wasn't required.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Subdivision?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure. Really we
should stop the hearing in my particular opinion
and address the 280A before we go any farther.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: What is a 280A?
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: 280A is an
application for a variance. New York Town Law
Section 280A.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: For minimum
standards on roads. May I continue?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Yes, go ahead.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Minimum
standards on roads to meet fire and emergency
vehicles 24/7.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Does your client
own Lot 1 and 2?
MR. VANDENBERG: Yes, he does. I'll turn
over the microphone.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: And it's not before
us right now, but the Town is saying that they may
have been merged, 1 and 2?
MR. VANDENBERG: Yes. Because of the
issue they were held by the Romeos.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: They were merged.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: But your client
doesn't own 3 and 4?
MR. VANDENBERG: No, those are owned by
other entities. I'll reserve follow up comment,
if I could.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Sure. Yes, sir?
MR. WATTS: Charlie Watts, Jr. I live
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adjacent to the property in question, it would be
the corner of Horton and Lilac. I don't know, all
my neighbors seem to like the roads -- except for
one -- the way they are. It keeps a lot of
traffic from going down. It's rural, and that's
why we moved there. And none of the neighbors are
aware of this going on. Just a little sign about
as big as this and that's it.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Our concern, sir,
is a fire truck has to get down there. There's a
certain minimum standard, and that should be met,
and we shouldn't be granting more residences until
that.
MR. WATTS: I agree, I'd 'rather not see a
house go up there anywhere. That's all.
MS. PARRIS: My name is Joan Parris. My
husband William and I live on one of the lots of
this subdivision. It's the only residence in this
subdivision.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: You're number 5
then.
MS. FARRIS: I don't know what number I
am. I'm the only one. In response to
Mr. Dinizio's comment about the fire laws, I had
the fire marshal come down and go down Bittersweet
Lane, and he called me back and told me -- and
this was very recently -- told me that the New
York State law for fire regulations has been
changed and there is no longer that regulation of
15 feet and 15 feet up.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I don't know if that
was a New York State; that was a town law that we
passed because many of our volunteer fire
departments just simply couldn't get up these
roads with their trucks.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: What I think he's
referring to is we follow now this international
building code. But he may be wrong because I do
believe there is something in our code, which we
can exceed that building code. I might be wrong.
MS. FARRIS: I agree with you, Bittersweet
Lane has been the bane of our existence, to be
honest with you. The Town refers to our lot as
705 Horton Lane. We do not have access off of
Horton. We have access off of Bittersweet. The
Building Department doesn't recognize 320
Bittersweet, which is what we have used as our
address since we purchased our property 18 years
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ago. So there is a problem and in my
conversations with the Town I haven't felt that I
have gotten a lot of help with this. I will tell
you that years ago when we talked about the lots
in question with regard to this variance
application that I was told by the Town that the
lots were merged. This was with Valerie Scopaz.
And I was told also that Bittersweet Lane would
have to be improved by the first person that went
in there and built a house as part of the
application process for a building permit.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: That's when the new
access law gets triggered is when somebody applies
for a building permit.
MS. FARRIS: I don't know where that would
stand at this point, all I know is that's what we
were told at that time.
With regard to the variance Mr. Vandenberg
referred to that this would cause a hardship, I
don't know that this is a hardship for
Mr. Reddington. I don't know Mr. Reddington. Ail
I know is that our property is the only property
that abuts the lots in question, and for our
bedroom windows to be looking out at two lots and
two houses when we really by statute are supposed
to be one lot. And that's how strongly we feel
about it.
BOARD MEMBER ORLP~NDO: Just to interrupt
for one second. But when you purchased that lot,
they were two lots in front of you 18 years ago.
MS. FARRIS: They were two lots and we
were told when we purchased that they were one
because they together under the same name.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: You're saying they
were merged 18 years ago?
MS. FARRIS: They were. There's no deed
that shows separation of ownership of those two
lots.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: You still have fire
access whether there's one house or two houses.
That's still the requirement.
MS. FARRIS: The fire access is in
response to the questions the gentleman brought
up. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking
about the issues with regard to putting the two
lots together. And I don't know if this is the
appropriate forum for that, but I just know that
we have that concern. When the Town says this and
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then the Town doesn't follow whatever it says it
wants to happen in this town, then you're up for
interpretation by everybody all the time. And at
some point you have to say yes or no, and this is
what you do. Just be considerate, that's all.
The other thing is in terms of the
neighborhood, yes, there are quarter acre lots
that have houses that are right on the border. I
don't know how that got approved, but that's what
happened in the past. There are half acre lots
with small little homes on them. Those are not
part of this subdivision. Only the properties
that you see on your maps are part of this
subdivision. I don't know why their existence has
to impact on the marketability of what we have.
There's no appraisal here, you can't determine
that our property is not going to be impacted. I
can't determine that. There's no appraiser here
saying that we're okay. Two smaller homes usually
means two smaller values. So, in view of the fact
that the property has had two lots, they've been
designated, but they've been merged for years. I
feel badly that Mr. Reddington bought subject to
this but no one talked to me about it, and this is
what I know. And, yes, I would love to have the
Town take over Bittersweet Lane, but I know that
can't happen.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: It could. It just
takes money to improve that road.
MS. FARRIS: That's not all it would
require. It would need an authority like
yourselves that it needed to be widened to its 30
foot actual width, and that would impact people
who are using it now for parking. And they would
not stand for that. So it is a 30 foot wide
road. I was told by the Town it was owned by
Peter Sterling's family. It has no owner because
the man's been dead for 35 years. So I don't know
what the case is. I just don't know what to
do. But that's the only way that that road is
going to be improved, that the Town is going to
stipulate that it be widened to what it's supposed
to be widened to. Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you. Is there
anyone else that would like to speak on this
application?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Yes, sir?
MR. KENNEY: My name is Joseph Kenney.
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I'm an attorney at law, so I want to tell you
that, I can give you my appearance, it's 142
Joralaman Street, Brooklyn, New York, 11201. But
my role as an attorney is really in the context of
my wife is the co-owner of 405 Bittersweet Lane
and my wife's aunt is the owner of 305 Bittersweet
Lane, two adjacent properties which abut the
subject property here. We object to the granting
of a variance here. We object to, if there does
come a time when a waiver of merger is requested,
we object to that as well.
A couple of reasons come to mind, when we
look at the nature of this property, my wife's
family has been there for more than 50 years and
even though the house does sit on a half acre lot
and my wife's aunt's house does sit on a half acre
lots, these two twin sisters who originally bought
this property and put these two houses up
functionally served as a one acre compound, if you
will. The properties surrounding the subject
property here are all one acre on, if you will, on
two sides there are stated one acre lots, on our
side, while they are half acre lots it's
functioning, has functioned for the last 50 years
and will function forseeably as a one acre lot.
Another adjacent lot, the one that corners on
Horton, I think the same thing can be said. There
are two lots there, they're two acre lots but
they're owned by the same family, and they have
been for literally generations. To subdivide this
property and to change it into something that
would create half acre lots there, or substandard
lots, would significantly, substantially change
the nature of the usage of the property, the
nature of the appearances of the area.
Regarding the roads, I agree they are
deplorable, and that's just how we like them. The
condition of the roads, of course, demand that
traffic go slowly and it discourages traffic.
CHAIRWOMAiq OLIVA: Who maintains the
roads?
MR. KENNEY:
MR. WATTS:
maintain the roads
MR. KENNEY:
variance, one of
can the benefits
achieved by some
I don't know.
Everyone's supposed to
in front of their house.
When we talk about a
the criteria for your decision is
sought by Mr. Reddington be
other means. When I think about
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the benefit that Mr. Reddington is seeking here,
it is not to be able te build houses, rather than
it's the financial gain that's going te be had by
being able te subdivide one lot into two, and sell
to two different owners. Now, when Hr.
Reddington's attorney spoke a moment ago, he said
that we would hear from Hr. Reddingten on the
financial hardship that might be caused here. But
nevertheless, I find it difficult te believe that
a financial hardship can be had, and
unsatisfactory financial benefit is going te
result from a property that went to contract, and
I believe he said it was 1998, sir -- was it
actually earlier than that?
MR. REDDINGTON: '98.
HR. KENNEY: Hy understanding is that this
matter has been going on for substantially longer
than that. In any case, even if it were a 1998
contract, te 2005, the market value has increased
substantially. Any financial hardship that might
he lost by not being able to subdivide the
property should really be measured against the
quality ef life hardship that will be suffered by
the families that have surrounded this property
for 50 years.
Your criteria also talks about whether the
requested variance is substantial. I guess
substantial is a flexible term in many ways. But
nevertheless, what we're asking is can we make two
properties where only one is allowed by the cede,
that's substantial. You're asking for twice the
usage ef the property that it was designed for.
Will it have an adverse effect er impact
on the physical or environmental conditions in the
neighborhood? Certainly it must. Right new, we
have, and we had for 50 years, and I, frankly, as
an outlaw, one who married into the family, I've
only been there for 30 years, but what we find is
that the area has been almost a pristine nature
preserve for those of us who have grown up there,
our kids who have grown up there. I understand
that we can't expect that te ge en forever, but
nevertheless, to say that we should amend what the
law has given us, that we should provide some sort
of greater benefit to eno who's speculating for
the purpose of financial gain, it just seems
unjust .
This is not an inadvertent problem,
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rather, it would appear that it was a very
knowable issue at the time the buyers went to
contract, and certainly before they closed. To
suggest that the rest of the community should have
to bear the brunt of that oversight, if it is, or
unfamiliarity with the law, when in fact, those of
us who lived in the area, those of us who are even
vaguely associated with what's going on in the
area, have been familiar with these problems for
years, it just seems unfair to hold that perhaps
lack of familiarity on the part of the buyer, the
owner now, against the rest of the neighbors.
Thank you very much.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you.
Mr. Reddington, I think you wanted to say
something?
MR. REDDINGTON: Yes. I appreciate
everyone's comments. I've been a resident, my
mom's got a house in Cutchogue for my entire
life. My mom actually lives right around the
block on Lilac Lane. When we originally went to
contract, and it was in '98 to purchase the
property, our intention was to build the house
there. We bought the two lots, our intention was
to build a house on one lot and keep the second
lot; I have four children. Subsequently with all
the delays, we found another house and purchased
the house. What we were going to do with the
properties at this point, if they are properties,
was with the possible intention of selling them or
the possible intention of keeping them for my
children. I don't know what I'm going to do with
them in the future or what's going to happen with
them. We were in contract to sell both of them;
because of certain delays the sales - bids have
been withdrawn, which I understand from the
buyer's point of view. We don't want to do
anything to the neighborhood that would bring down
the value. My mother lives around the block.
Night next to my mom there is a very small plot
that was sold several years ago and a house was
built on it, a very nice house on a third of an
acre piece of land. Very pretty. I'm sure if the
board agreed to that it was two separate lots, and
I thought at the beginning of this conversation
that that was not going to be decided here, but if
the Board was to decide it's two lots, I'm sure
that the Building Department would only approve a
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house that was suitable for that size. They
wouldn't approve a house that's suitable for an
acre. That's my assumption, I'm not 100 percent
sure.
From our point ef view, yes, the lets are
three-quarter acres, they're not the acre zoning.
They're short by about 8,000 square feet. When
the Board in 1969 did approve that subdivision as
five separate lots, it wasn't a question ef this
is one let, but we'll approve two. It was
separate lots, two separate tax IDs, two separate
addresses in the Town ef Seutheld. They also were
two lots. At some point they were merged and what
I believe happened was it was an oversight
somewhere in the Romeo estate where he passed away
and the filing went into agreement that the lots
were merged, and no eno was there te unmerge
them. I never knew that when I purchased
them. If I had known that, it would have been a
different story. We went through with it. We
went to the Supreme Court with one issue on having
to do with the sale. The Supreme Court said it
was a valid subdivision. And I'm net questioning,
and I know it's net your job to say it's a valid
subdivision, it has te do with the size ef the
lots.
We bought them in good faith that that was
the case, and if we were wrong, we'll have to live
with that. As far as the hardship is concerned;
yes, it is a financial hardship. Whether it's an
immediate financial hardship or not, if you
purchase something and think it's two, and all of
a sudden find out it's one, whether it's immediate
now or 20 years from now when my children realize
it, it's a different story. It's something we
just wanted to get straight and even if we
purchased at the time, we were going to build on
one lot and keep the second lot as an investment
at the time. That was where we were leading with
it. I know I've sent you guys a lot of different
letters over the past couple of months. I
appreciate your taking the time to read them, and
the whole road concern is an issue that I'll
address. It wasn't something that was brought to
my attention, and it's something I'll bring up
with my attorney and whoever else is in the
neighborhood about that. I don't want do anything
that's going to surprise the neighborhood. My mom
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lives there. It's not my intention to surprise
anybody by building anything there. I wouldn't do
that to neighbors let alone to my mother who's
right there.
I want to thank everyone for their time.
Everyone who came here to speak. Whatever you
decide, I respect your opinion. Thank you.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Just comment, first
of all, I do appreciate the gentlemanly nature of
the discussion - I regret using the sexist term
'~gentlemanly" and the frustration is there is
something in law called laches, which is sleeping
on one's rights; which is to say for better or
worse, if you were given a right, if the owner was
given a right in 1969 to subdivide and to build on
it, since that was never activated on, that was
exactly the point which the Town acted on when it
passed a merger law. In other words, rights are
not in perpetuity. So it's unfortunate from your
point of view, certainly, that you cannot depend
on once upon a time the owner of that property had
the right to build two houses on the lots in
question. That's just a point of clarification
and observation, but I do appreciate the polite
nature of the discussion and I hope this will be
dealt with in appropriate manner.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: And while I
appreciate Mr. Simon's sentiment, my problem is
that we have people go and they took county maps,
they see two lots. They receive two tax bills.
They receive all this stuff indicating that this
looks like it's two lots, and the only way they
get a notification that these lots are merged in
any way is if they happen to read the paper over
the course of advertising the law, or they were in
town when there was a public hearing. The Town
makes no indication, makes no effort to notify
property owners when their lots are merged,
although the Town did agree that there would be a
subdivision here.
I'm a little unfamiliar with subdivisions
in that the people who sold you this lot are the
people who got the subdivision approval?
MR. REDDINGTON: No. It was Romeo.
MR. VANDENBERG: It was the collective
family, Romeo before.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: So then these two
lets were sold te somebody else from the
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developer, no separate deed then?
MR. VANDENBERG: I can address that. In
'69 when the application was made for the final
subdivision approval, and the minutes of the board
December 8, 1969 said it's approved, essentially
that point it was a 12,500 square foot single lot
requirement. What happens is in 1995 the law is
amended to say that well, on merger issues, if you
meet certain things, there's a separately recorded
deed, which I think it was affected in November of
1995, is when that law was enacted, that would
allow us to I guess eliminate any discussion on
the issue of area variance. The problem was that
Mr. Romeo, who owned the property, purchased it
from the family members, died in May of '98. I
don't know that the estate had even begun to be
addressed or probated or handled. So the problem
was that the estate completely missed, overlooked
or didn't deal with the fact that the only issue
that had to have been done was to create and file
a deed. I refer to it as kind of a ministerial
act. Something that there's no approval that you
need, there's nothing other than just putting
words on a piece of paper and filing it at the
county center, would have eliminated all of the
applications that we're here for. So while I
appreciate Mr. Simon's remarks about sort of
sleeping on your rights and laches and those sorts
of issues, the part of the process that we are now
faced with, is because they had gotten all that
approval, because it had been recognized in all
other ways as a valid individual two lots, the
relief that you asked for is, what's appropriate?
What is equitable than someone who then comes in
and purchases what he believes to be two lots,
premises his investment based upon that, and then
you ask for the waiver of what happens to be
nothing more than a technicality that's taking
something away from him.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: What is the next
step in this progression? 1995, because you don't
have two separate deeds in two separate names.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: 1995 they didn't
merge. 1995 was when we created a procedure for a
lot waiver; that was a procedure.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I know at some
point in time they were merged. What happened
next? How is it that Mr. Reddington didn't know
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that they were merged?
MR. VANDENBERG: Because of the contract
that was entered into back in 1998, it was entered
into with a representation there were two lots.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: And no single and
separate search?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: And no two deeds?
MR. VANDENBERG: There were no two deeds
at that point. It was basically premised on the
fact that they had the final subdivision approval
and all of that had been done. And there was a
representation by the estate that that was, in
fact, the case.
There are other representations in
connection with that that required them to produce
single and separates and do-certain things, but
more primarily was the issue of Suffolk County
Department of Health and getting water down there
because the water was not potable down
there. There were issues as to whether or not
even septic would be possible down there. So then
the focus from the seller's point of view went
towards the Suffolk County Department of Health,
unfortunately for whatever reason they just didn't
process that fast enough, yes, land values did go
up. When we finally collectively with other
homeowners in the area that own some of the other
lots prosecuted the issue with the Suffolk County
Department of Health to get them to agree with
Suffolk County Water to bring water down and
resolve the Department of Health issues, we then
said, look, we have now got this under control for
whatever reason the seller didn't do it. So now
we want it closed. And that's the point where the
sellers then said, well, we think you have
abandoned the contracts. We don't want to sell to
you anymore.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Honestly, I don't
think that's part of our application here. The
delay is fine and all that. I want to be clear on
why you wouldn't know that this was merged. If
you purchased a piece of land say from the time of
the merger law on, you're going to need a deed.
Any lawyer is going to probably say that. And if
you don't have a deed, how do you say that it's
two lots?
MR. VANDENBERG: In the contract of sale
the representations were made that we were getting
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that. When we didn't ultimately get that, we
realized that ultimately there would have to be --
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: You were getting
what?
MR. VANDENBERG: Two separate, individual
lots.
7.2.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Like Lot 7.1, Lot
MR. VANDENBERG: They made that
representation in the contract of sale. They said
they were going to give us that. When it got to
the point where we were allowing them to do their
thing, and they didn't deliver, that's when the
dispute arose. We then realized we were going to
ultimately be faced with having to deal with this.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: But you went ahead
with the sale anyway?
MR. VANDENBERG: We went ahead with the
sale anyway and our remedies under the contract of
sale were limited.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Essentially to
not proceed and get your down payment back.
MR. VANDENBERG: Yes, to get your down
payment, but you lost the benefit of what you
bargained for.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: But you did
proceed under the contract knowing full well you
had an issue as to whether they were two separate
buildable lots.
MR. VANDENBERG: We wanted to close the
transaction, yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Before you
closed it became apparent to you there was an
issue as to whether or not there were two separate
buildable lots?
MR. VANDENBERG: I would say that's a fair
representation.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: And you
proceeded with the transaction.
MR. VANDENBERG: We proceeded with the
transaction knowing that the only thing that
hadn't been done was the simple filing of the
deed.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Let me ask you, do
you then go to the Southold Town code and look at
the waiver of merger law and determine that there
is something in there that would allow for a
waiver of merger?
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MR. VANDENBERG: At that point there is no
statutory definition that allows us to avoid
coming before you.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Not avoid. I'm
saying qualify for a waiver.
MR. VANDENBERG: There's nothing statutory
that qualifies for a waiver. We have to come and
ask for the relief from you.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. We have
certain criteria, four criteria; do you meet any
one of those?
MR. VANDENBERG: Yes. Those are the four
criteria we talked about, in terms of the
density -- are you talking about the exceptions or
for granting waiver of merger?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: For granting a
waiver. Oh, you're aware that these lots are
merged? You're aware of that at some point in
time? At that point in time, you're going to look
at the law and say Southold Town is giving us
something that we can get relieved. We haven't
had that hearing yet.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: That's why I
redirected him here. I didn't want him to go
through a double procedure like Daysman-Morris did
where the first step was to apply for a lot waiver
and find out he wasn't eligible. I didn't want to
waste Mr. VanDenBerg's time with that. I wanted
him to get before the Board for a quick hearing.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: My next question
was going to be that. I'm confused as to just
exactly, why are you here, because of the size of
the lots?
MR. VANDENBERG: I admit I misunderstood
when I first stood up.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Are we talking
about two lots or two single lots?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Would a search at the
time of the contract reveal whether they had
merged or not?
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: It should
have, yes. There was no single and separate chain
of title search.
MR. VANDENBERG: Again, I go back to the
fact that we initially contracted with regard to
the seller, all these things were going to be
delivered to us. Then when we got to the point
where we were on our way to court unfortunately to
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conclude the transaction, and I'm not going to
stand here and neither is Mr. Reddington, and tell
you that we didn't recognize at that point
sometime in 2003 or whatever it was, that this
plot of land, be it one or two had not increased
in value, admittedly, yes, it had.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Whether it was
one or two it was still a transaction you wanted
to proceed with economically.
MR. VANDENBERG: Absolutely.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: So that
accounts a little bit against your hardship
argument.
MR. VANDENBERG: At the point we
recognized, though, that our only option would be
at that point would be to walk away er you can't
get mere than your --
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Your down
payment back.
MR. VANDENBERG: So, yes, there was an
economic decision that was made at that time to
conclude the transaction, agreed. Because at that
that point, knowing maybe what the read ahead was
going te hold and that the only issue
presumptively that we saw was the fact that this
was simply a fact that there was net a deed that
was filed. We did, if you want to call it, roll
the dice.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Under the area
variance standards, lack of economic hardship is
not fatal, but it's eno of the balancing factors.
So you're here te try and demonstrate to the Board
that this is not a detriment te the neighborhood,
and that you qualify for a variance. Then I
expect you would then go ask the Planning Beard te
divide these two lots.
MR. VANDENBERG: Yes, ultimately that's
what we're faced with, yes.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That's my confusion
I think. Then because I read waiver of merger.
I fully expected te talk about waiver of
merger. We're not talking about that. We're
talking about two 32,000 square foot lots that
they just want variances for the 20 percent
they're under, okay, the 8,000.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Because it was
quarter acre when they got their approval in 1969;
today the size requirement is different.
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BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but they're
not separate lots.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Yes, they didn't
follow-through for separate lots.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: They would
still need to be divided if you agree appropriate.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: If we agree that
these spots are consistent with the neighborhood.
MR. VANDENBERG: That whole discussion, I
would point out, if we ultimately are faced with,
look we've got an acre and a half of land here,
and ultimately we're faced with having to go back
to the Planning Board, the question is, is the
Planning Board going to be more inclined to say
make one of them an acre and the other a half
acre, instead of making them equally what they
were originally intended to be. Our objective is
not to make them a complicated -- I think you
heard from Mr. Reddington, it's just to kind of
complete what, quite frankly, what should have
happened in 19 --
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I read
Mr. Reddington's letter, and he was stating that
it was a 60 year old mistake. I was trying, and I
have it now. I know what you're here for even
though one reason on this is not quite that. I
don't know.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORPdq: The issue of
the road is still relevant here.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That would be a
condition of any approval we would give.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: To apply for a 288.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: The road that
serves these two lots must be improved to whatever
we say it would be.
MS. FARRIS: It doesn't just serve these
two lots, it serves all the lots.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: It's only the 160
feet along Bittersweet that's involved.
MR. VANDENBERG: I would only think that
would help the community in general.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That's the only
thing you would be responsible for unless there's
some district that these people form. That's the
only thing we can control.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: That's the only thing
we could control.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: If you don't have
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anybody to speak to down there, like an
organization who's responsible for the roads, we
can't say, he's got to develop the whole -
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: No.
MR. VANDENBERG: I don't know if it's
helpful, I guess I'm asking for direction whether
there should be an amendment to our application to
address the access issue.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think there
should.
that.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll go along with
MR. VANDENBERG: I'll leave that to the
Board to tell us what to do, that certainly is
appropriate.
MS. FARRIS: May I just ask a question?
I'd like to know that you're going to rule on the
issue of variances; the Planning Board rules on
on an application for a merger of the lots; am I
correct?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No. We're going to
rule on the size of those lots, give some
standards. If we choose to or not to grant a
variance from that 40,000 square feet to whatever
it is now, we're going to say these are lots, even
though they're substandard, if we choose to grant
that, we would allow that.
MS. FARRIS: So the issue of the merger
becomes moot?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MS. FARRIS: So in effect you will be
deciding the issue of the merger?
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Different way
of dealing with the same problem. It would
require two steps instead of one. It would also
require Planning Board approval of the division.
But this would be a very important step in that
decision. There's some of the same considerations
are relevant. It's a different legal standard but
a lot of the same considerations are relevant.
MS. FARRIS: Does the public get an
opportunity to speak to the Planning Board on
this?
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Yes.
MS. FARRIS: And would we be notified by
the Town that this is coming up?
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Yes.
MS. FARRIS: How would the public find out
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about your decision on this?
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Call our office
probably in two weeks, they'll meet on December
lst; it's a public meeting, you're also welcome to
sit and listen if you like.
MS. FARRIS: I just want to add for your
edification, I guess. I had a conversation with
the executor of the estate and he was advised by
the real estate agent that he should try to sell
them, promote it as two separate lots. So I think
you get a lot of stuff out there, and if people
aren't sure, and I know Mr. Romeo, the gentleman
that died was told about doing this and changing
the deed, but he didn't, and that's the way it is.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Mr. VanDenBerg, you
were going to give a letter saying you would
accept conditions from the Board regarding right
of way access, I assume, right?
MR. VANDENBERG: Yes, absolutely. With
regard to Bittersweet or what?
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: To accept the
Board's conditions?
MR. VANDENBERG: Absolutely.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Or you would have
no objection?
MR. VANDENBERG: No objection.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Any other questions?
MS. MOORE: I actually represent Mr. Ryan,
who is the property 1.3 acres, it's 7.4. Just to
give a little bit -- my client does not oppose
this application, in fact, he as well as
Mr. Reddington and Mr. Gerasi who is here, all of
us got tangled up in what became a family dispute.
The Romeo family and the estate and everybody
in fighting was the reason why it took so long.
Then each of these property owners that were in
contract ended up all having to bring actions of
specific performance because the family couldn't
get off the dime making a decision on the sale.
So everybody was faced with the same situation.
And we've all been working cooperatively to try to
get through this process that has been one
nightmare to another.
One thing I would ask, and it might be
helpful for this Board to have, and we can get
from Stanley Isaacson, while this subdivision was
approved in 1969 it was in fact being approved,
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kind of the way zoning gets approved now, which
is, gee, we'd really move this along quickly if
you give us what zoning would like to have. So
even in '69, they were developing this almost, if
not entirely as a one acre zoning yield, and it's
very close in calculations because at the time
roads were included, everything from end to end
the acreage is included. Our lot, Ryan's lot is
1.3 acres, Farris' property, which also came out
of the same subdivision, 1.4 acres. The road that
is now commonly owned by Gerasi, Reddington and
Ryan is 230 by 30, so there's a lot of acreage,
square footage. Ail in all you're going to find
that the yield of this land is as close as you're
going to get to a one acre yield. I think it's so
close that I think you would be well served to
those numbers from Stanley, who has been doing the
mapping. We have been working very hard because
even in '69 it was pre having to go through Health
Department processes. As you know, all of you
probably have seen or faced that subdivisions
approved prior to '81, minor subdivisions did not
have to go to the Health Department. The Health
Department retroactively in the '90s interpreted
that minors did have to go for Health Department
approval. So we actually all got together, did
one map, filed a subdivision map with the Health
Department with individual lots, ultimately just
recently because of this delay, again, we have all
been very cooperative. We said, we'll let him go
with respect to the water connections because now
through the process everybody is going to be
connected to public water. Some of these homes on
Bittersweet have actually benefited from this
process from the subdivision because my client and
they have paid for the extension of the water
line. The Farris property is also going to be
benefiting from the connection to the water. And
we have actually voluntarily offered and nobody
has said they won't consider to offer to give the
Farris family a right of way over our private,
that private road, which is they have a right of
access, but there is no right of utilities. We
have actually voluntarily given Mr. and Mrs.
Farris the right to extend that water line up that
right of way. Again, everybody has been
very cooperative here, very well-meaning, and the
fact that a subdivision gets jammed up because of
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family relationships and one misstep after
another, I think that should be in your record.
Because again, I think if you're dealing with this
as area variances, these properties far exceed in
size, and these properties are essentially one
development scheme, far exceed in size the
surrounding neighborhood, which are all in the
half acre to less than half acre in size.
We are supportive of Mr. Reddington. We
have been all through this, and we hope you'll be
supportive of him. Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Yes, sir.
MR. GERASI: My name is Steve Gerasi. I'm
one of the property owners. I own lot 7.3, it's a
one acre parcel, so I don't have any issues with
that.
When I first looked at the properties in
1998 or 1997, whatever it was, what brought me
there was the whole area. I mean, I had owned
property in Cutchogue previously years ago that I
had intended to build on, but things didn't work
out. I had to sell that piece of property. I
revisited the area and I found this, and it was
just what I was looking for: Private gravel road,
a flat, rectangular, one acre piece of property,
and I said this is perfect. When I went to the
real estate broker and they showed me the map, the
map showed four parcels. The parcel that I chose,
the one adjacent and two across from it. I was
perfectly comfortable with the fact that there
were two three-quarter acre parcels, and I still
am to this day. Anything else would be somewhat
hypocritical. Yes, I can understand some of the
opinions of the property owners that live there
now. Given a choice, I think of course they would
rather only have one house than two, one house on
an acre and a half as opposed to two houses on
three-quarter acre parcels. I don't have a
problem with that because at the time I looked at
it that was the way it was represented then,
that's what they're asking for now, and I'm
consistently sticking with that, that I don't have
a problem with there being two three quarter acre
parcels, and they're right across the gravel road
from my piece of property.
Now, I have taken a very active role in
these past eight years in helping bring this
situation along to the point where we actually own
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these pieces of property. I was the person that
got involved in the Suffolk County Water Authority
and the Health Department to help bring the water
in, and the water main extension goes directly
past my piece of property, which is 7.3, it's the
first piece of property on the south side of
Bittersweet into the minor subdivision.
You've heard from everybody else here some
of the problems that we have experienced over the
last eight years, all the hurdles that we had to
go over and some that we're still working on. As
far as the road quality, as I said earlier, one of
the things that brought me there was the gravel
road and the way it's very natural and bucolic; I
think that's the way I would prefer it stay. Now,
on the north side of Bittersweet, there are three
houses there. How did those houses get there?
They were built there. There was construction
equipment brought in, and they built those three
houses and if you could bring in construction
equipment, I'm sure there's not a problem bringing
in any fire equipment or any safety vehicles that
may have to come in there. Also too, my plan for
my home takes into account that Bittersweet Lane
is not a road that you can park on. I am going to
have a driveway apron that will allow cars to park
in there. There will be no cars parked on the
road, and I'm actually going to have a driveway
that for lack of a better term, it's not going to
be a circular driveway but a cut out onto my
property so you can be able to turn around and
come back out. So no cars will ever be parked on
Bittersweet Lane because it's a narrow gravel
road. It only makes sense. I can't imagine
anybody building on those other two lots a little
bit further west of me doing anything other than
having parking in a driveway. Ail the houses
on the north side of Bittersweet do the same
thing. I believe there's only one home, it's on
the corner of Pine Tree and Bittersweet, the
Scoggins, use Bittersweet Lane and its apron, for
lack of a better term, on the south side to park
cars on, and even that doesn't create a problem.
Those are the points that I wanted to make
here this afternoon after listening to everybody
else's perspective on the situation. Thank you
very much.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you. Any other
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questions?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: If not, I'll make a
motion to close the hearing and reserve decision
until later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Our next hearing would
be for Mr. and Mrs. Ingrilli for an accessory
building, side yards and also the use in the
accessory building.
MS. MOORE: Pat Moore, for Mr. and Mrs.
Ingrilli. I have Mr. Ingrilli here today and I
have Mark Schwartz, who is the design
professional, the architect. We were just talking
moments ago, the notice of disapproval you should
have is the amended one, May 12, 2005.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: We have October
24th, even newer.
MS. MOORE: I don't think I have that.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: I think
Mr. Schwartz may have obtained it.
MS. MOORE: The only variance that I'm
aware of is for the garage.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: No. Then for the
workshop of the garage.
MS. MOORE: Yes. The Building Department
said because you want to put the space above the
garage slots, the workshop, they call it a
dwelling just in case; then it's up to us to prove
to you that, no, we are not doing the dwelling.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: No, right in here a
workshop is not a permitted use in an accessory
building.
MS. MOORE: I don't have that one.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Second paragraph from
the bottom, that's the May 12th one.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: And I think the
addition to the house was taken out of it. You
have permits for the additions.
MS. MOORE: The house is actually under
construction.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: We know that.
MS. MOORE: Maybe we need to describe
better what it is. We call it a hobby shop
because it's his own personal space, and we can
get right into it if you want.
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I had given you a floor plan of the
garage, which is the only variance, that
particular structure. And the garage, if you saw
that the design of the house, that garage leeks
like a bunker. I'm not insulting the owner here
by saying it's very unsightly. The neighborhood
has asked him te de something about it because
it's unsightly. That garage is being redesigned
and it's designed in conformity with the
architectural style of the house.
The garage, first fleer, is for his
vehicle usage, and Mr. Ingrilli can describe
better what he does, but he's a very creative
individual, and he has some vintage cars that he's
actually restored.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: We saw that.
MS. MOORE: I have the pictures ef his
cars. And the garage is climate controlled. It's
all intended for preservation of his antiques.
The second floor ef the hobby shop er the garage
is again, for his own little tinkering. He does
decoys. And why don't you describe what you do.
MR. INGRILLI: Hi, John Ingrilli. I mess
around with things. I don't de it professionally.
I work for a bank. I have old vehicles from a
1952 Good Humor truck, 1953 vintage pick-up truck,
it won a Concourse award. I use it a little bit
more regularly new rather than just have it shown.
The garage is climate controlled for these
reasons. I mess around with older stuff that are
antiques, whether they're gumball machines er
antique slot machines or from time to time some
woodwork. I do some hunting as well, se I started
to collect some older decoys. I do work on
restoration on older decoys I find. I try te make
some from time to time myself, I'm terrible er I'm
told. But that's the kind ef things that I would
de in the garage I will use it, the second floor
also for storage as when I am doing or working
with someone. I don't de any major restorations.
I'm not a mechanic. I work with eno or two people
offsite, but I will collect things from time to
time that I de need for a restoration. Se I might
have some supplies or an old mirror that I need
for the car and things like that, which I won't
keep with the actual vintage vehicles. I plan on
keeping that stuff upstairs, but that would be
almost exclusively, if I can the use ef the
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garage.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Do you restore the old
vehicles?
MR. INGRILLI: Only mostly interior stuff.
There's no mechanical stuff that's done at all,
most of that's done at Gaslight Garage. I'd love
to be able to do some of that stuff myself, but
I'm not qualified to do it.
MS. MOORE: Just for the record, I want
him to say it so you have it on the record,
there's no kitchen upstairs, right?
MR INGRILLI: No.
MOORE: There's no sleeping quarters
MS
upstairs?
MR
quarters.
INGRILLI: There's no sleeping
There is a powder room, a bathroom,
which is on the second floor. There is no planned
living quarters at all. The house is more than
ample in terms of number of bedrooms for my wife
and I and the children. So there's no reason for
additional living space.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: How will it be
heated?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't think that's
designed yet.
MR. INGRILLI: It might be radiant heat in
the floor downstairs. The only thing I did talk
to them about -- Eugene Berger is the builder. I
don't know how they will heat it. I'm indifferent
I guess they'll heat it the same way they heat the
house. What I did need really tell them I care
more about the humidification more than anything
else. So it will have a dehumidifier for the
vehicles, and I guess to the extent they can do
that in the heating system or whatever, there's a
combination, I would prefer that.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: But the house would
have a basement, right?
MR. INGRILLI: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: The heating system in
the house would be in the basement, but the garage
isn't going to have a basement?
MS. MOORE: No, it's usually either
propane or electric heat.
MR. INGRILLI: Propane or electric heat to
it.
MS. MOORE: Natural gas down in Nassau
Point?
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garage
demo.
MR. INGRILLI: No, no natural gas. I know
the old house used to have electric heat. I know
that they plan on using - I think in the plan
they have oil fired system for the house. I'll
guess, because there will be propane for the
stoves and things, probably propane or electric
for the garage.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Pat, did you say the
is going to be redesigned?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: It's going to be a
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Oh, it's going to be
just what we have here?
MS. MOORE: Yes, exactly. With respect to
its setback, again, if you have seen the property,
you've seen that this is somewhat of a peninsula
in a sense. You have Nassau Point Road, which is
actually at a low level, then you go up to the
property, which is at a constant level, then there
is Smith Road, which is about six feet higher. So
the garage, the house you don't really see
anything. Smith Road only gives access to two or
three houses at the very end point, and they're at
a different level. This area of Nassau Point is
quite interesting in that it has very different
topography. So this piece of property has no
direct neighbor next to it. You can't see it from
any road and you can't see it from other
properties. So it's very isolated.
I have, which, I don't know that you have
in your file, I have a topographic survey. So it
can show you the different topography of Smith
Road and Nassau Point Road and you can see the
significant difference and how this piece is
visually isolated from all the other properties.
I have Mark here, I don't want to take up
more of your time, but if you have any particular
questions, we'll try to address them.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Why does the
building have to be so high?
MS. MOORE: Mark, you can answer that.
Keep in mind accessory structures can be up to 18
feet.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is showing
23 to the ridge.
MR. SCHWARTZ: The mean height is under
18.
CHAIRWOMA/~ OLIVA: 17'10".
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BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We always want
18 and 4, which is 22, that's the reason I think
they addressed it. If it was 22, I don't think
they wouldn't have given --
MR. SCHWARTZ: I didn't think the height
was the issue at all. I thought it was mainly
because of the road.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It says the
proposed building is noted at 23.3 feet. MS. MOORE: From the road.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No, road.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, I
apologize, you're absolutely, correct. I was
taking it the same way. And the difference in
size is what from the one that exists?
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: It's on the
survey.
MS. MOORE: The existing garage is 16'3"
by 22'3". It's one bay, cement block -- one and a
half bay, square box.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: New one is 26 by
MS. MOORE: Right, it's a three car
garage.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Do we have any
idea, Mrs. Moore, why they sought to deny you on
the basis of a ~orkshop?
MS. MOORE: No. We could have called it
anything. I think maybe you approached them
first, and said, well, that's what he does. If
you're a tinkerer, how do you describe tinkering?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: I notice that the
code mentions a play house as a permitted use.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Any workshop
isn't listed. There's also a catch-all phrase
that says that any use customary incidental to the
main use.
MS. MOORE: I've actually used that term
before, and it's never been an issue of the use.
I think their concern is the fact that any time
you have space above a garage, they want to make
sure that there's no possible conversion to
dwelling, sleeping quarters. That's why at least
Damon conservatively says go to the Zoning Board
so they impose that condition on you. We said,
well, we don't want to do that but we're here
anyway with regard to setbacks, so it wasn't an
impediment to the process.
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BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have a good
suggestion then, why don't we change it to hobby,
not for commercial purposes.
MS. MOORE: Ail right.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let's do that
from now on. Hobby/storage area, not for
commercial purposes. Ail future stuff let's call
it that. You can mirror this application.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: It wasn't only the
commercial aspect, it was also residential because
they didn't want it to be a dwelling.
MS. MOORE: I actually in my applications
generally say it's not a dwelling, nonhabitable.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Say it's not
habitable at the same time.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I think it had a
lot to do with this guy wants a climate control on
accessory.
MS. MOORE: Yeah, they probably thought he
was in the business of restoring cars in his
garage.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: We should probably
restrict it to noncommercial.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Any other questions?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Yes. Reason you're
before us is because the setback is being reduced
to 23 feet; is there any way of locating the
garage without having to do that? I mean, the
existing garage is 31 feet, so it is expanding in
the direction of the boundary.
MS. MOORE: Yes, but keep in mind that
when you have a waterfront piece of property,
you've got the slopes. So really your buildable
area is really smaller and more condensed. The
house where it's presently located, the bank is
very close and right now it's being renovated you
can see. So that right along Great Peconic Bay,
that whole slope there is not to be touched.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: I'm looking at the
topo map, and I'm looking at the place where the
garage is, not the steep embankment on the other
side.
MS. MOORE: I'm giving you the reasons
why, to push the garage closer to the house means
that you're going to be shortening the space of
cars in circulation for any of his cars and his
kids, it's shrinking everything, putting
everything closer to the existing house. Remember
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that this property, where Smith Road, that setback
there, you have the elevation, and please, I'd ask
you to go look again, because it's a tiered rear
yard, you have the Smith Drive all the way with
vegetation, then it comes to a landscaped wall,
two tiers of stone walls. So while the distance
is short, I guess linearly, from Smith Road, it's
actually on a bank so it is completely blocked
from view. So the distance, you could actually
push it closer to Smith Road, you could push it as
close as the retaining walls would allow. It has
no impact there. Usually you worry about setbacks
because of cars going by and blocking visibility.
Here you have a garage that is how many feet down
from the Smith Road?
SCHWARTZ: It's at least eight to 12
MR.
feet.
MS.
down here,
you've got
MR.
driveway.
MS.
MR.
MOORE: So you've got the structure
and you've got the road up here, and
tiered landscape walls.
SCHWARTZ: Smith Read is really a
It's called a road but --
MOORE: It's a dirt path.
SCHWARTZ: And the accessory building
only requires a 10 foot setback in this property
except for the fact that we have this right of way
called Smith Road that really requires I think a
40, 50 feet setback.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: What I'm wondering is
I still haven't gotten an answer to why it
couldn't be say six feet further to the southeast?
I don't know if it's southeast, but it's te the
lower right of this map. It would be the
southwest. I'm going to be writing this up, I'll
go and take another look at it. When I was there
someone was backing out, when I was driving in.
MS. MOORE: I had the same problem. There
were electrician vehicles in my way.
Mr. Simon, maybe this can help you a
little bit. This is the proposed garage, and this
is the driveway. Just also be careful because the
sanitary system, that's fixed in its location.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: And plus there's
already something there, something already exists
in that location.
MS. MOORE. We have the stone walls, we
have the sanitary and we have the existing house.
We have not too much room to work with as far as
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placement of this garage without putting it in the
way of things. Any other questions?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Any other questions?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I have a quick
comment. I can appreciate Mr. Ingrilli's request
for a nice heated garage since Miss Moore's
probably aware that I restored a 1932 Ford.
Unfortunately I don't have a nice garage for
myself, I share it with my wife, but she knows to
stay away from it. So I can appreciate that.
Just for the record, I just want to say we did get
a letter from Alison Byers, a neighbor, opposed to
this application, 10335 Nassau Point Road. For
the record, we did receive it. I just wanted to
put that out there.
MS. MOORE: Okay, I don't believe she even
sees this property.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Okay, I just wanted
to put that out. So we are okay, with just
putting as a condition a half bath upstairs,
nonhabitable.
MS. MOORE: That's fine.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We're going to
put in that aspect of nonhabitable/noncommercial,
hobby.
MS. MOORE: As you're writing this, we
would ask respectfully, and we know you go as
quickly as you can, but right now because we are
under construction with the house, it would be
very helpful to Mr. Ingrilli if he got the
decision in some quicker fashion.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Two weeks we have our
meeting and as soon as we can get to it after
that.
MS. MOORE: Anything you can do to help
them out so we can demolish and start construction
on the house before the weather really changes.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Is there anyone else in
the audience that wishes to speak on this
application?
If not, I'll make a motion to close the
hearing and reserve decision until later. (See minutes for resolution.)
(Whereupon, deliberations on Raynor permit
application ~5711 were held. See minutes for
resolution.)
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Our next hearing is RQA
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Properties.
MS. WICKHAM: Good afternoon, Abigail
Wickham for the applicant, RQA Properties. I'd
like to thank you for having the hearing at the
end of the day, I know it's been a long day for
you and we will try to cover what is an awful lot
of material as expeditiously as possible.
As you know, this is a variance request to
add an additional building, which is really an
accessory to his main usage, it's not going to
house a separate business. It's not an expansion,
it's basically to restore an area that has been,
in essence, confiscated by requirements that he
has to comply with for insurance and EPA
purposes.
We are here under code Section 100-241, as
a nonconforming use. I think, and I had
discussions with the Building Department, that the
Board could treat this if they wished and the
Building Department had no objection, as a
100-242, nonconforming use and building, which
would allow up to a 30 percent expansion, and we
do exceed that. So we would be seeking a variance
from that as well. If you consider that as an
area variance, I think our proof is certainly
going to address those issues. However, we are
addressing this as a use variance application, and
providing the proof that we think you need to
sustain the decision on no reasonable return and
the other criteria in the code.
I put together a package, there are seven
copies of handouts that I wanted to make to you
during the presentation. I thought that rather
than running them up every time I mentioned, I'd
just give them to you as a package. And I'm sure
you are going to be spending some time on this
decision, you can look at them later, so you can
listen to what I'm saying now.
As I said, I've done very few use
variances during the course of my career, because
they are difficult to obtain. They shouldn't be
granted frequently, but I have to say that if ever
there was one, I think this is appropriate for it.
I want to review for you the property history, the
business of Rich's, the financial and economic
issues and the other approvals that we are seeking
in connection with this need of his to expand the
building area.
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YOU have before you a property history
sheet that goes through the different items that
have happened on this property over the years. I
just want to highlight that this was originally
before zoning an automotive usage, that it was
zoned business when zoning came in, and Ed Fox was
there with the Esso station, that it has a
multiple use history, that it was rezoned in 1989
to residential R40 when the automotive operations
were in full bloom. It wasn't any cessation of
that business and Rich came into the property as a
tenant around that time. Was it '87?
MR. BOSINIAK: '87.
MS. WICKHAM: '87 just before then. So
when he started it was zoned for business use, and
it was changed later than that, I don't know if he
was aware of that because he was busy taking care
of his business. In any event, in 2004 the
property became available. Mr. Aliano put it on
the market. He really had no choice but to buy
it. He paid 550 for it, which was the price able
to obtain it for. What happened then was he had
since the '80s been operating as a tenant. He had
garageman's insurance. He had all his permits
that he was required in order to conduct the
business. When he became an owner, his insurance
company advised him that now that he was getting
ownership insurance, he could no longer continue
under the tenant policy that he had, that he had
to comply with EPA and insurance standards. And
they came down on him very heavily. They
basically gave him a few months to put in an
environmentally sound spray booth or they were
going to shut him down, and he can't stay in
business if he doesn't have insurance.
In your package is the letter he received
from the insurance company that essentially has
notified him that his insurance as of now will be
canceled in December if he doesn't comply. And it
lists on the back the reasons and the first one is
the spray booth, so that is the essence, that is
the guts of his hardship today, and his need for a
use variance.
The 1950s survey that's in the file shows
that there was a gas station where the real estate
office was located and what was artfully called
the "lubritorium" in the garage building. I
hadn't heard that term recently, but that gives
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you -
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So you've heard it
before?
MS. WICKHAM: I think I've heard it. But
in the context of Van Tuyl's survey, this shows
that there has been that type of usage in the
building for a long time. In 1974, Tad Auto Sales
came in and got a special exception from this
Board to have in addition to the uses that were
already there 15 used car sales slots. That
condition did require minor repairs only. Rich is
going to talk about the extent of auto repairs
that he does when he speaks, but I believe that
that decision was geared towards the auto sales
business itself because it appears that there was
already an existing glazier in the building who
did auto repair, auto glass and metal fabrication,
and there is a letter in your file to that effect.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: May I interrupt you, it
also says that no further business may be
established on these premises other than existing
one of the glazier and the used car business of
the applicant, and that condition runs with the
land.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes. But there already was
a real estate office there, so for some reason
that was not included in the decision, and I think
it's clear that it should be.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Should or not should,
that's what it says.
MS. WICKHAM: I think that's a mistake.
Because there was clearly a real estate office in
there, and I think that the decision, I can only
presume, was geared towards that section of the
property. In addition, the glazier who was there
and allowed to continue, was doing very similar
types of things to what is currently being
conducted and has been conducted since 1974,
that's a long period of time. And nobody's
complained about that in the interim. So yes, we
are here to ask you as part of your decision to
clarify that in light of what it is he's
conducting now. As I said, in 2004 he bought the
business and he has encountered the problem.
By virtue of having to put in the spray
booth that goes in the front of the existing
garage building, that is a metal structure, a
self-contained unit, that occupies the two to
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three bays that have been in the front of this
building since whenever Mr. Fox started his
business. The spray booth has significant
environmental protections, and the cost is
somewhere between $70,000 and $80,000 to install,
so it's not an insignificant amount of money.
He applied this summer when he learned
about this problem for construction of a building
in the rear, 18 feet high, 36 by 48, in which to
put the operation of his business that is going to
be basically evicted by the installation of this
spray booth. And it will also help him deal with
the fact that he is doing some of the work in the
front of the building where it doesn't belong and
he doesn't want to continue it. So as I say, the
building is not to expand his business, it's to
contain pretty much what he's got now, and make it
more productive, more efficient. And as you'll
see in the economic analysis, essential for him to
continue.
The spray booth is a dry use. What it
does, and Rich will explain this a little more, it
does blow the air, as the air is sprayed, the
paint is sprayed, it blows the air down into the
floor, filters it, so that before it goes back up
through the roof out the exhaust, it goes through
a series of filters and keeps it environmentally
contained.
Now, I'm going to let Rich talk about the
spray booth and those types of things, but I want
to get to the heart of the no reasonable return
issues. I have in the packet an appraisal, which
I would like to review briefly, but I did have it
there for you to study in more detail. Andy would
have been here today but his daughter had an auto
problem and that came first.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Miss Wickham,
before you start that, while you're saying that, I
just want to reflect upon the problem that Rich
has with the insurance company. Just give me that
again, so I can reflect upon that.
MS. WICKHAM: He rented it for 15 years,
and he had garageman's liability insurance. He
didn't have to insure the building. He bought it
otherwise he was out of business, and when he
changed from his tenant's insurance to his owner's
insurance, the insurance company in order to issue
that owner's policy, required him to install a
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spray booth as well as the other items that you
see. I can get you a mere legible copy if you
can't read it, but basically it says clean up the
parking area, de some other things, most ef which
he's done already. The spray booth, as you
probably know, it's a very large structure that
goes in the building and that takes up the space,
and it has to be enclosed, but it was the
differential in the type of insurance he had to
get, he had to come up to standards.
BOARD HEMBER GOEHRINGER: In inquiring
about that, de we assume that that's for fire
purposes er was it for any ether standard other
than that?
HS. WICKHAM: It's for fire, it's for
primarily for emissions purposes. You have a
sheet in the material that talks about how this
spray booth works, and it has also has some
specifications en it. It indicates that the
emissions are about 99 percent covered whereas
right now it's going right up the chimney and
right in the air. There are OSHA requirements for
employees that were also part of the insurance
requirement. The VOC rating on this booth,
Volatile Organic Compounds, the emissions are
between 2.8 and 3.5 parts per million. It's an
credible decrease in the amount ef emissions. Net
only that but the air draws it down and converts
it to a metal, a solid compound, all those
compounds, which are then disposed of properly as
opposed to going up in the air.
BOARD HEHBER GOEHRINGER: The last thing
is a portion ef the building he's operating in
now is a wooden building; is that correct?
MR. EOSINIAK: No. It's concrete, cinder
block.
BOARD HEMBER GOEHRINGER: But the roof is
wood?
MR. BOSINIAK: Right.
MS. WICKHAM: The building he's proposing
is metal. It's like a Morton building, low -
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And fire
retardant?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So are we going to
demo this building and start over?
MS. WICKHAM: No. We are adding. If you
look at the site plan I have an A and I have a B.
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The first page shows the front building, with what
is essentially five bays, two in the front and
although he doesn't have a door in the front, he
has two doors in the front, but three bays that he
can use. Then in the back, two bays, that's in
that first building. The first page of the site,
it says existing, and it says up in the top what
we've got. And you've got, it says operation, one
story concrete block building, that's what that
is. That is going to be reduced to a spray booth
and two bays in the back.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So he's doing an
alteration of the existing booths to create a
spray booth?
MS. WICKHAM: He's using the area where
the two or three bays are three bays I have
there in front are basically not going to be used
because that's where the spray booth goes. I'll
show you a picture of it.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: That's going in one
of the bays?
MS. WICKHAM: That's going -- turn to the
next page -- right here, he's blocking off these
two bays, these two doors, and he's just using
this door now. And that spray booth, that big
metal thing, and this is what it looks like.
That's right inside the building, and those two
bays facing the road will not open any more.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: You threw me when
you said Morton building and then you went to
this.
MS. WICKHAM: The Morton building is in
the back and that is just to replace the bays that
are used up by the spray booth. Those bays in the
Morton building in the back will be bigger because
he wants to be able to accommodate trucks in
there, now he's jamming the trucks in. He does a
lot of ambulances and fire trucks.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: So there's no more
buff-outs or wet sanding out in the front new?
MS. WICKHA~: Ail that stuff that happens
in the front, it's very busy, it's very
distracting, these people won't have any access in
the front because the overhead deers.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Where is the
spraying new en the current plan?
MR. BOSINIAK: There's a room in the back
that I use as a spray room. When I get my license
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18 years ago it wasn't required.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Gail, before
you go down the road of economic hardship, do you
have a point of view as to when 100-243 applies as
opposed to 2417 And I hate necessarily to ask you
a question that I'm not certain of the answer of
myself.
MS. WICKHAM: Well, then I won't feel bad
if I don't know.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: My point is
241 suggests that you can't enlarge a
nonconforming use and 243 seems to suggest that
you can up to 30 percent under certain
circumstances, and it's not immediately clear to
me which one governs.
MS. WICKHAM: Let me tell you, when we
copied that, apparently they didn't put it back in
the right place, I don't even have it here, but if
I remember correctly, is that the one that is
entitled nonconforming uses and buildings?
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Exactly,
nonconforming buildings with nonconforming uses.
MS. WICKHAM: This is a nonconforming
building.
ASST. TO,lq ATTY. CORCORAN: In what
respect?
MS. WICKH~kM: It's too close to the front.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Okay. I don't
know why the code should be more liberal if you
have a nonconforming building as opposed to a
conforming building, but in any event it seems to
be the right section. It seems that under certain
conditions that the Planning Board could impose
that you should be allowed up to 30 percent,
right?
MS. WICKHAM: That's what I think. I said
100-242 I meant 243.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: I heard 243,
that's why I just looked it up. It's
nonconforming buildings with nonconforming uses,
which this is, right?
MS. WICKHAM: Right.
CHAIRWOMA/q OLIVA: Isn't that allowed to
expand under certain circumstances by 30 percent?
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: You're asking
for more than 30 percent, correct?
MS. WICKHAM: That won't accommodate the
amount of space that he needs to replace this.
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Just so you know, the building is already ordered.
He went into the Town when the first thing first
came up, and he, for some reason, and I'm not
saying it's anybody's fault, and he understood
that he should go ahead and order that building.
He didn't have the choice anyway with the
insurance company, so we don't have the
flexibility of changing the size of that building.
We are really asking you instead of 30 percent to
go to about 70 percent. But he's not expanding
the business; he's just adding a building to
contain what he had because insurance and
emissions, environmental regulations have required
him to do that.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Is there a CO for the
tent that he has out there?
MS. WICKHAM: That's coming down.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Can we mark on the
plans that it's going to be removed?
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: On the project
description as part of the file, under Item 2 it
says purpose of new construction requested, I'm
quoting from what you wrote, the question is to
expand the existing facility; could you clarify
that?
MS. WICKHAM: We're expanding the square
footage of the facility in order to accommodate
the use that had been employed in the old
building. We're not expanding the business; we're
expanding the facility.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: If the Board approves
this, it would be acceptable condition if it said
there will not be room to service more cars that
now can be serviced, right?
MS. WICKH~LM: Yes. He doesn't really
service cars, but we can work on that, but, yes,
he will not work on more cars.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: Will not increase the
number of cars that can be worked on at any one
time?
MR. SENENPELDER: What he's done where the
paint booth comes in the front because of the
standards he's actually lost that whole front
building. Basically just replacing of the
existing space.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: The point I
was discussing from the Board's point of view with
Gail is if you go under 243 as opposed to 241,
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what you're talking about is an area variance not
a use variance. You're talking about allowing
more than a 30 percent expansion, and one of the
issues is whether this is something that was
beyond the applicant's control, whether it was
self-created or not. And I think the financial
hardship issues are still relevant, but they are
less of a requirement; it's more how did we get
here, which is the story you've been telling.
MS. WICKHAM: I'm giving you everything,
and you can decide how you want to handle it.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: How do you
determine the 70 percent? Based upon the size of
the new building?
MS. WICKHAM: Based on what's there and
what is going to be there, yes, square footage of
building space. If you look at the area that he's
using outside, he's using an area out front that's
going, and he uses an area out back that's
outside, then it's much, much less than that. I
didn't compute that because I didn't know if you
would want me to, but I could.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But we need to
compute that aspect of it because he's taking out
those three bays to put the spray booth in, but at
the same time, he's building a building to replace
that. I think the 70 percent sounds
extraordinary.
MS. WICKHAM: It is extraordinary. And I
use that number because I think that section of
the code and, Kieran, you have it in front of you,
is on a square footage basis. They talk about
expanding the buildings. That's why I use that
analyses. But if you talk about expansion of the
use .
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: It's the same
use, just using it's a greater area.
MS. WICKHAM: But that code does, if you
read it carefully, does talk about expands being
buildings.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: It's what the
increase of the footprint is.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: We were talking
about that earlier, and you were going to get some
numbers to us on the breakdown on that. That was
where we left it. Remember when we weren't sure
whether or not to advertise it for that?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
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BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: At least if we had
a breakdown of the percentage.
MS. WICKHAM: I can get that to you this
afternoon.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Thank you.
MS. WICKHAM: If you close the record
today and hold it for that.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: How do you do
on lot coverage?
MS. WICKHAM: We're okay on lot coverage.
We are lot coverage of actually 10.9 and it's a
residential zoned, so we're only 20 percent.
Anything else on those issues?
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You can see how
important it was for me to at least trigger that
question before you go into the rest of it. MS. WICKHAM: Thank you.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I just want to make
a quick statement, and you can respond. So your
client has been doing auto body/lubritorium work
there for almost 20 years?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes, since 1987.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: And if your client
didn't buy this piece of property and was still
renting, you wouldn't be before us today, he'd
still be doing another 20 years of auto
body/lubritorium work?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I just wanted to
say that.
MS. WICKHAM: Are you ready for Andrew
Stype? That's in your packet.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: The old real estate
building, what is that going to become?
MS. WICKHAM: That's still there, it's
rented to another broker.
The expenses that we have run through, and
I'm going to give you them in a different format
as well, are extraordinary, and have increased
significantly since he bought the property because
tie had to get a mortgage, his utility costs will
go up with the spray booth somewhat. It will be a
more efficient operation, but it will cost him
more. He had to get a loan to get the spray
booth, so that cost is higher. His insurance has
basically at least doubled because now his
liability has to be coupled with the property
insurance. The real estate taxes here we show at
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$6,000, they will also increase significantly once
the building goes up. Andy then went into an
income analysis, the office building at $25 a
square foot rental and the garage space at $12 a
square foot rental, those were based on comparable
rentals in the vicinity. The real estate office,
there are several, the garage space he likened to
what is being charged by the buildings up on Cox
Lane, which are renting out at about $12 a foot.
He then took in a 10 percent vacancy credit factor
and came up with what you could attribute an
expected return to the property of a little over
$22,000. When you analyze that against the
expenses, it is a negative return.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: When you look
at the garage return, is that based on the
assumption that the property can't be used to run
the business and it would just be used as a space
rental? Because it doesn't show any income on the
business.
MS. WICKHAM: It's showing as a rental, a
return, he equated it to a rental for the garage
space as opposed to ownership usage. I'm going to
give you figures on his business usage shortly,
that will dovetail with that, and show you that's
not any better.
9he second scenario I'm just going to
touch on briefly, but that may come up at some
point because in terms of improving a
nonconforming premises, you do have a 50 percent
rule, and Andy did a quick analysis for me to show
that this new improvement - and he actually
valued it at 100,000, that was originally what we
thought it was going to cost 80, that would not
exceed the 50 percent.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: What is the 50
percent rule?
MS. WICKHAM: You increase, improved a
nonconforming building, it more pertains to fire
than anything else, but I just wanted him to throw
that in there.
Third scenario, what he did here was, he
said, okay, if we convert this to a residential
use what are we looking at, and we're looking at a
big negative here because obviously it would cost
a tremendous amount of money to change the site to
a residential vacant lot. He could sell it as a
vacant lot, and he's anticipating a $250,000
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value, which last year we would have blinked our
eyes, but today is certainly feasible, incredible
but it's feasible, but even at 250, he still would
be looking at a tremendous loss.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: Gail, just to
cover our bases here, when you show there's no
reasonable return, you have to show that there's
no reasonable return for any of the permitted uses
in the zone.
MS. WICKHAM: I'm going to bore you with
that too.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: I don't want
to be bored by it; I just want to wrap it up. Can
we assume that the residential use is probably the
highest value use, and if there's a huge loss
there, then there's more than likely to be a huge
loss on any of the other permitted uses?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes. I was going to do that
after the income, but I'll do that right now. In
an R40 zone, one-family, agricultural operations,
and the size of the property does not accommodate
that; we have municipal-type uses, fire districts,
the size of the building would not accommodate
that, and I don't think it would be appropriate;
wineries, obviously it wouldn't comply because
it's not 10 acres. And special exception uses in
that area, two-family dwellings, we don't have the
acreage, places of worship it's not big enough,
schools it's not big enough, philanthropic
eleemosynary, et cetera, it's not big enough, and
the utility rights of way; now wireless
communication, he could probably make a bundle but
I think the neighbors would have a problem, so I'm
going to assume that that is not a feasible use
for this property, beach clubs, tennis clubs or
children's recreation camps, I'm just running
through the list of permitted uses in the code,
veterinary offices, cemeteries, stables, those are
not uses that would be accommodated on a one acre
piece of property. So I don't think you could
generate a reasonable return and I think therefore
the single-family dwelling is the highest and best
use. And I think the other point that if this
appraisal doesn't say, but you can use the
numbers, that if this business were to continue
just as it were without expansion, that's going to
be my next point. Did I interrupt you?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I was going to make
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a quick statement, did you consider or think about
going to the Town Board about rezoning it?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes. I'm going to get to
that. In terms of what if he leaves it just the
way it is, does he get a return at that point?
And if you look at his expenses and his income
analysis, which his accountant has given me for
the first nine months of 2005, his gross income
was $342,000; his cost of goods sold was $249,000,
that's things like labor, outside service,
purchases, supplies, paint, mechanical work that
he has to sub out to another location, so his
gross profit was $93,000. Then if you take off
his business expenses of $63,000 for that period,
he had a net income for $30,000 for the first nine
months of the year and will have additional
insurance costs of $1,400, additional mortgage
costs of $29,000 and rent income, a positive
figure of $11,250, that's a lot of numbers to
throw at you, but that means the net income for
the first nine months of the year is barely over
$10,000, it's $11,850. So he's barely breaking
even, and if he is to sustain a loss of more than
30 percent because he's lost those bays in front,
he cannot continue in business, and that's another
part of the reasonable return, is what if he just
stays where he is; that's a problem.
If you want me to submit more specific
details on that, I could. I would prefer not to
because it is part of the public record, but if
you would like it I will submit it.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Your last financial
statement was based on putting a new spray booth
in the building, but not putting the new building
in the back, correct?
MS. WICKHAM: Correct.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No. Your last
financial statement is how he's been doing
business for the past nine months.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: But he has the spray
in there.
MS. WICKHAM: No. With the installation
of the spray booth, because I did include the cost
of carrying the spray booth.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: You're carrying it,
but that net of that report you just gave us
doesn't include the loss of the three bays, and
the installation of this booth. The only thing it
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includes is the amount of money you have to pay
for this booth.
MS. WICKHAM: On a monthly basis in the
mortgage.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: He's not making
money with that booth right now. It's not in that
nine months.
MS. WICKHAM: I'm not sure I understand
the question, but he is still doing -
MR. SENNENPELDER: I understand what
you're saying.
MS. WICKHAM: This is Tom Sennenfelder who
is an engineer who is a business associate of
Rich's.
MR. SENNENFELDER: I understand what
you're saying is basically the numbers reflect
what he currently has done this year, but they do
reflect the fact that the forward part of the
building the last two months, those two bays, he
has stopped using them. Right now he's actually
seeing a severe loss -- for the past month, excuse
me.
MS. WICKHAM: These figures, Tom, only go
to September.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: That spray booth's
going in no matter what.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: You're still not
making money?
MR. SENNENFELDER: No. The problem is the
volume, any business like a body shop requires
volume.
MS. WICKH/LM: The spray booth will improve
his volume.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: If you just get the
spray booth and you don't replace those bays, you
don't make money.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: That was the last
statement he would make $10,000 a year.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: The $10,000 a year
doesn't include anything to do with the spray
booth.
MR. SENNENFELDER: No, $10,000 a year
actually reflects his income for the first nine
months of the year. And now he's reduced his
capacity about 30 percent on the building's
production.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: The last statement
she put the mortgage in for the spray booth.
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MS. WICKHAM: I did, but it still comes up
at $11,000.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: It reflects
some of the costs but not the loss of income going
forward.
MR. SENNENFELDER: That's correct. In
fact, if you do an analysis upon, that's on an
exponential rate because you can't bring in
business as pro shop from different insurance
companies because he doesn't have the facility.
In fact, now he actually schedules the work and
has to turn work away, send them over to other
shops because you can't bring the cars in because
he only has enough space for one and a half cars
that he can mechanically work on, and he doesn't
have the proper paint facilities because he can't
use that facility properly. So, in fact, if you
go to the shop many times now, you'll find
multiple cars -- and I've seen up to nine cars in
the back -- that are waiting to be repaired, and
he has to make the determination do I send it to
another shop or turn the next customer away.
Without that facility, you know, any business,
especially where we live now, residences, more
people are out here now, you need to expand to
keep pace with what you have, but he has a
facility that was actually designed, I believe the
building was in place somewhere in the '30s. The
building hasn't seen any appreciable increase in
the size or space or anything since the '30s. A
lubritorium is a term from the '30s, from the days
of the Model T.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: I thought we
should spend a minute or two how this increase, if
not increased use but sort of increased use of
space, what effect if any it will have on the
neighborhood and the surrounding area. That could
be a main thrust here.
MS. WICKHAM: My next point is that, but
starting with the building location, the proposed
location. My first question came in, why don't
you just attach that to the existing building.
His response was he could do that, he could kind
of cantilever it off the southwest corner, but he
was trying to take into consideration the
residential surroundings and get it as far away
from the homes as he could. If he brings it up to
the building, it's going to be closer to the main
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road and therefore more essential over the fence.
If he's brings it to the existing building, it
will be closer to Pequash Avenue and closer to
those homes. So he thought this was probably the
best place for it to be to have a minimal impact
on the neighborhood. It does have a door at
either end, so he does need room to be able to
maneuver, and the spray booth door if you look at
your second proposed map has a western bay, so he
has to be able to get out that way. That was the
only reason that he decided not to attach it to
the building. He thought it would actually
minimize the impact on the residential area.
We lost Mr. Huntington and Tom Wetzel, who
were here from the Fleet's Neck Association, and I
believe they were going to speak favorably on
it. When what Mr. Huntington said to me before
the hearing was this is the kind of guy we need in
the neighborhood. They were very appreciative of
what he's done to clean up the area. He will be
going to site plan review and the Planning Board,
and that's going to involve a lot of aspects of
screening and building design and building
placement and access issues and parking issues.
He is also going to be taking what is now allowed
as 15 use cars, sales spots and reducing that down
to five. That is the only thing that's going to
be in the front of that building, all the
detailing, the washing, the whatnot that goes on
on the Main Road area is going to be gone.
Everything will be moved into the buildings in the
back. We have a letter here from Emily Victoria.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: I have that.
MS. WICKH~-M: Emily and Jim Grathal own
the house directly across the street. She is
supportive of his application. I think that's
very important because she would probably be as
much affected by it as anyone. And Rich has
talked to other people in the neighborhood and
he's been very good about making sure that they
are not unhappy with what he's doing. I believe
he's also talked to the owner of not Elliot
Dawson, but his sister, who owns the house
immediately to the south, and to the lady who is
renting the house.
In terms of the neighborhood in general,
again, it's been a long-standing use that's been
there for a long time. It's not going to change
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the neighborhood significantly, and you do have
other -- it's in the KALO Zone and I believe I put
the HALO map in your package. So it is part of
the hamlet density studies and that I think is an
important factor, as well as the DiSantis
Christmas tree across the street and other uses in
that Main Road area.
If I could just tick through some of the
other issues on a use variance. I think we have
talked about reasonable return, if you have any
more questions, I can give them to you. The
hardship is tremendously unique. Fortunately
nobody else in the neighborhood has the insurance
and EPA conditions he does. It does not apply to
the substantial portion of the district, it's just
this property, and it will not alter the essential
character of the neighborhood and because it is
continuing to be what it has been since the '30s,
and he will be screening and actually improving
it. Before the Planning Board even told him he
had to do it, he's done a lot of it already. It's
not self-created in terms of the insurance
requirements, and it does observe the spirit of
the ordinance, now that was a tough one, but I
think the reason it observes the spirit of the
ordinance is because use variances are permitted
although limited, and this is the situation where
I think they should be available. Public safety
and welfare are served by the environmental
improvements he's making and certainly substantial
justice will be done.
Now, I just want to tell you quickly about
the other approvals because that was a question.
We have had two meetings with the Planning Board.
We have submitted a site plan; it's been accepted.
We have retained a surveyor to make additional
requirements that they have because although their
letter says it's incomplete, that is for a
processing purpose, and they do, quote, agree with
the concept design, unquote. They have been very
supportive.
A change of zone was filed with the Town
Board to Hamlet Business on October 4, 2005 at the
suggestion of this department. I am still waiting
for a work session appointment. We will agree to
continue to pursue that, but we anticipate that
that's not going to happen immediately; that will
be involved with the HALO review; it will be
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involved with other applications in the area. And
also I think the use variance, number one gives
him more immediate relief that he essentially
needs, and it also gives the Board the ability to
control and not open it up to a general
free-for-all down there.
I do want to mention one issue about
hamlet business use and that has to do with the
definition of "garage." Hamlet business does
permit public garages, but it doesn't permit a
repair garage. However, the pre-existing
definition from the 1973 code -- and that's in
your material -- does allow that because public
garage and repair garage were all in the same
definition. And I want to mention that in case we
have that issue when we go to the building
department, we did explore that and I don't have
to come back to you and discuss that.
Also, the code requires the 300 foot
residential setback. The special exception for
the auto sales we did address that, but I want to
make sure that we address that here today as well,
and if you want me to go into that in more detail,
I will, but I think it's assumed in our whole
discussion.
Mr. Aliano applied for a use variance on
this property, which was denied by your Board in
2004 I believe, and I want to distinguish that
application. That application was basically for a
shopping center. The neighborhood was not happy
with it, understandably. So there's a different
aspect to this use variance. It was not a
hardship; there was no financial showing; there
was no proof in the record. Different type of
situation.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: That was 1990,
right?
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: '89.
MS. WICKHAM: It was 3907. Maybe it was
1990, yes, I'm sorry.
And finally, as I said before, if there
was ever a reason for a use variance, I think this
is it. I think Rich has a couple of things he
wants to say, and then we'll see if you want us to
say anything else.
BOARD MEMBER SIMON: One question, how
does this HALO region affect this? I thought HALO
has to do with affordable housing?
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MS. WICKHAM: It does. But it's an
indication that that's a denser area of the
community, and that's where development is going
to occur. It's not out in an agricultural area;
it's not isolated from the center of town.
MR. BOSINIAK: My name is Rich Bosniak, I
own Rich's Quality Auto Body. I'm in business
there over 18 years. I live here in Cutchogue.
I've been here over 20 years. My family's been
here for over 30 years. I have three daughters
that go to the Mattituck/Cutchogue school. My
wife works for the school, I'm not going anywhere.
So I'm really just trying to conduct business. I
purchased the property a year ago. It was not
available to me to purchase it before then because
Mr. Aliano did not want to sell it. He was very
generous to me because my rent was iow, but from
purchasing the property, my expenses everything
has tripled -- more than that. And I really do
need to put up this building in order to conduct
my business. I don't think I can conduct my
business if I don't get a variance or go for a
zone change to put this building up. I have been
offered to sell and get out, but I have three
daughters to put through college, and I'm a young
guy, I plan on being in business for a long time.
If there's any other questions anybody has. I'm
just trying to conduct business. I'm a service to
the community. There's five body shops between
Riverhead and Orient. For an area like this
that's very undersized. There's over 25
mechanical shops that repair cars between Orient
and Riverhead. I feel that you need me here. You
need somebody to repair the cars. I don't do
mechanical repairs there. I do strictly a body
shep. I do sub-out to all the mechanical
sheps. The spray booth that I did put in that I
want te continue forwarding on is environmentally,
I live here, this is my tewn. When I got my fresh
air permits and whatever, all this stuff wasn't
required. Because of the insurance and because I
purchased it, of course, I had te do it. It's a
let of money, but it's a geed thing. Everything's
filtered, and fumes are net going out te the
environment. It's a very needed thing,
MS. WICKHAM: Do you want to hear abeut
the water system, dry system differential?
MR. BOSNIAK: I don't know of a water
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system out here. Ted's Auto Body has an older
crossdraft booth, First Class Auto Body has an
older downdraft booth. Starlight Auto Body has a
cross draft booth. These are all older spray
booths that don't have a water system. So this
water system is a good thing, but you also have
other environmental issues because that water has
to be disposed of, that contamination has to be
disposed of.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: How do they do it?
MR. BOSINIAK: My system is a dry
system. I have filters. The water system goes
through, the water gets collected, and the water
has to be carted away. This is just a dry system.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Rich, do you
honestly think that if this property was hamlet
business Mr. Aliano would have sold it to you?
Certainly not at the price you were paying for it.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: This is besides the
point.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm saying in
general, I think that since the property was
residential, you were probably better off because
I think they have less interest in it, and the
only reason I say, I know the Aliano family for
many years, and I'm not putting words in anybody's
mouth, but they own primarily commercial property.
Their shopping centers are all up in the Shoreham,
Rocky Point, Miller Place, every one of those are
multi, 26 units some of them have. I suspect that
conceivably the reason why you're here and the
reason you did buy it was because of that reason,
that there really wasn't anything they could do
with it at this point, except use it as it was.
MR. BOSINIAK: At this point in my life I
wasn't going to start over anyplace else. I do
live in Cutchogue, and I have been in business for
a long time, and I do have a good following. I
didn't have much of a choice. Mr. Aliano, the old
man who was my landlord was a good friend of mine
and still is today. His son got involved. His
son is a different person. His son tried to sell
my business out from under me. He advertised my
business. I really had no choice but to buy the
property.
BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Anybody else have any
questions of Rich or Miss Wickham?
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BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: I had one question,
Gail, could you just confirm for the record how
many uses there are because the old CO has a lot
of uses that aren't there anymore. There are just
the two uses, primary uses, right?
MS. WICKH~g~: There is the real estate
office use and there is Rich's Quality Auto and
the auto sales.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: So the auto sales
would go on in the back?
MS. WICKHAM: It would continue in the
front, but the volume would be reduced.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: So it's going to be
in the parking that's shown on the plan?
MS. WICKHAM: It will be where it is now,
in front of the fence, but it will not be as many
vehicles.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: How many vehicles?
MS. WICKHAM: Five. He has permission for
15.
ASST. TOWN ATTY. CORCORAN: You will limit
it to five.
MS. WICKHAM: I don't know if he mentioned
he doesn't keep cars for parts on the property
either.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: Thank you.
MS. WICKHAM: So I will get you the
specific numbers on the square footage.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: That was Rich's
Quality --
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: You mean the
breakdown for the 70 percent?
MS. WICKHA_M: Yes.
BOARD SECY. KOWALSKI: That would be with
the tent building or without it?
MS. WICKHAM: I'll give you both.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I'll make a motion to
close the hearing and reserve decision until
later.
If not, I'll make a motion to close the
hearing and reserve decision until later.
(See minutes for resolution.)
(Time ended: 3:33 p.m.)
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CERTIFICATION
I, Florence V.
State ef New York,
THAT the within transcript
the testimony given.
I further certify that I
Wiles, Notary Public for the
do hereby certify:
is a true record of
am not related by
blood or marriage, to any of the parties to this
action; and
THAT I am in no way interested in the outcome
of this matter.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
hand this 17th day of November, 2005.
Florence V. Wiles
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