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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-08/15/1968 APPEAL BOARD MEMBERS Robert '¢(/. Gillispi¢, Jr., Ch~irm,m Robert Bcr~n Charles Gregonis, Jr. Serge Doyen, Jr. Fred Huls¢, Jr. Southold Town Board of Appeals SOUTHOLD, L. I., N. Y. Telephone $O 5-9660 ~INUTES SOU3~OLD TOWN BOARD CE APPEALS August 1.5, 1968 A regular meeting ~f the Southold Town Board of Appeals was held at 7:30 P.M., Thursday, August 15, 1968, at the Town Qffice, Main Road, Southold, New York, There were present: Messrs: Robert W.Gillispie, Jr., Chairman; Robert Bergen, Fred Hulse, Jros Serge Doyens Jr. Charles Gzigonis, Jr. PUBLIC H~A~ING: Appeal No. 1196 - 7=30 P.M.(E.D.S.T.), Upon application of Austin Bo Tuthill, Ole Jule Lane, Mattituck, New York, for a variance in accordance with the Zoning Ordinance, Article III, Section 306, for permission to construct private ~ne car garage and storage building with insoffic~nt front yard setback. L~cation of propertyt Channel Lane and Ole Jule Lane, Mattitucks New Yorks bounded north by canal, east by H. Terien, south by Ole Jule La~e, west by Channel Lane. Fee paid $5.00. The Chairman opened the hearing by reading the application for a varienceslegal notice of heaucings affidavit attesting to its pub- lication in the official newspaper, and notice to the application. TH~ CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone present who wishes to speak in favor of this application?. That would be pou Mr. Tuthillo AUSTIN TUIHILL: I dont~'k~ow exactly what Ishould say. T~ C~AIR~N: Do you have anything to add to the application? M~. TUTHILL: I 'dontt think so. Let me ask you /~ there is anything that isn't clear. .Southold Town Board ~f Appeals -2- ~ust 15~ 1968 T}~$ CHAIRMAN: As I see it from this sketch you have 97 feet on Ole Jule Lane. This is a pie=shaped lot. MR. TUTHILL= NO. HOWARD TERRY= He is on one end of the curve there. first lot as you come out of the curve. one? Itts the THE CHAIPJ4~N: You have two lots, and this~ves the dimension of MR. TUTHILL: Right. ~ C~AINMAN: Were the lots bought at separate times? t~. TUTHILL: Yes. MR. BERGEN= This structure is on one lot. 1~. TUTHILL: Yes. T~ CHAIRMAN= For zoning purposes it is all one lot. Are you planning to sell one lot? MR. TUTHILL= No. T~E CHAIRMAN= The house was on the property wehn you bought it? MR. TUTHILL: There is another application in~ and approved to add unto the other side of it. H~NARD TERRY= The house will over-hang both lots. ~. B~RG~N= Then this will always be one lot? MR. TUTHILL= Yes. TH~ CHAIRMAN= What is your total acreage? ~. TUTHILL= About 2/3 of an acre. Tf~ CHAIRMAN~ This lot is about 100 feet by 155 feet. MR. TUTHILL= The o~er one is the TfD~CHAIRMAN= Channel Lane is What? Does it ge anywhere? HOWARD TERRY= It's a 50 foot road that the To~n has never taken over. T~E CHAIRMAN= What was the purpose of having it cut in there, to reach the creek? H~ARD T~RRY= It was part of the deal when the Town took over J~le La~e. Southold Town Board o~ Apl~als AuDust 15, 1968 I~, BERG~RN: There is no turn-around at the end, There is no purpose in cutting it through. TH~ CHAIRMAN: Is there anything else. Anyone wish to speak for this application further? (There was no response.) THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone present wish to speak against this application? (There was no response. ) After investigation and inspection the ~oard finds that the applicant requests permission to construct a private one car garage and storage building with insufficient front yard setback. This property has fronta9e on two streets, Ole Jule bane,and Channel Lane. The front back setback requirement would be violated on Channel Lane. The Board finds that this road is not even cut in, tared or paved, and it is unlikely that this road will be cut through by the Town. There is only one building lot on this side of Channel Lane, the one in question, therefore, no front yard setback is being established. ~n general, the Board in in a9reement with the reasoning of the applicant~ The Board finds hhat strict applicationof the Ordinance will produce practical difficulties or unnecessary hardship; the hardk&ip created is unique and would not be sh~Ted by all property alike in the immediate vicinity of this property and in ~he same use district; and the variance does observe the spirit of the Ordinance and will not chan9e the character of the district. motion by Mr. Bergen, seconded by Mr. Gillisp~e, it was RBSOLVBD Austin B. Tuthill, Ole ~ule Lane, Mattituck, New York, be granted permission 4o construct a private one car garage and sttage building with insufficient front yard setback, as applied for on property located Channel L~ne and Ole Jule Lane, Mattituck, New York. Vote of the Board: Ayes:- Mr. Gillispie, Mr. Bergen, Mr. Hulse, Mr. Doyen. PUBLIC }~ARING: Appeal No. 1195 - 7:45 P.M.(B.D.S.T.), Upon application of Marvin J and Natalie Parr, ~ing Street, ~rient, New York, for a variance in accordance with the Zonin9 Ordinance, Article III, Section 303, Article X, Section 1000A, Article III, Section 307, Article III, Section 309, for permission to divie lot.with each side less than 100 foot frontage. Location of property: N/B side of Kin9 Street, Orient, New York, bounded north by Serge Traube and others east by Holtzman, south by ~ng Street, west by M. Lathamo Fee paid $5.00/ The Chairm~n opened the hearin9 by reading the application for ~ xn the official newspaper, ann no%~ce ~o ~ne applicant. $outhold Town Board of Appeals -4- August 15~ 1968 TH~ CHAIRMAN: The application is accompanied by a survey, dated March 21~ 1968 indicating ~hat this rectangular plot is about 188 feet deep on the north and south boundary. About 135 feet wide on King Street. And 135 feet on the other boundary. The survey incates four buildings~ barn, garage and two dwellings. Is there anyone present who wishes to speak for this application? RIC}Y%RD LON~WITH~ Mr. &Mrs Parr are both here. My name is Richard Lon~with. I am an attorney with ~ffices at $5 Plymouth Road, Rock~ille Center. I would like to point out a few things that do not appear on the application. The Partes purchaeed this property in June from the Estat~ of S. Brow~ Tabor. They were not desireous to bu~ the ~wo houses but~ they had no choice since the estate · ould not m~ke this applicatiom to split np this property. The ~arrs spent the s,,-~er working on the easterly protion of this property which they intend to make their residence and use for their own personal use. They are not in the real estate business. They are not in the business ~f being land-lords, and they can not afford tokeep the second house on the property. They don~t wish to rent it out. They would like to sell off this other house, spliting the property approximately in the front, and keeping the hulk of the property in the rear for themselves. In other words~ the division propgsed will be right off the parcel on the west, having a frontage of approximately 63 feet and a depth of 128 feet. This will leave the house on the east and the barn and the garage. THE CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute. Go a little slower. On the east~ (pointing to sketch) This is the east here. You are in the house that is approximate 2 feet from the line. RICHARD LONGWITH: No on the west. I meant west. I see the direction on my survey. This is the hmse they wish to keep. The~ spent most of their summer fixing it up , they also desire to keep.... T~ CHAIRMAN: 65 feet on the road, is that what you said~ On King Street~ RICHARD LONGWITH: Well the divisio~ we proposed is to divide off the house on the right of the survey as you look at it with a frontage of 63 which would leave an approximate frontage of little over 71 feet. This was arrived at because of the location of the driveways. This is as cloee as we could get to an even division of the property~ leaving the houses with the present driveways that exists. THE CHAIRMAN: Now~ the division tothe east would include that garage~ is that correct? It would go with the house that you propose to se&l? HIC}LaA%D ~ONGWITH: No, we desire to keep the garage. TH~ CHA~MAN~You are going to keep the garage andthe barn. RICHARD LONGWITH: Right. The garage is not really much of a building at.all. Southold Towa Board c~ Appeals -5- August 15, 1968 MR. HULSE: You want to make this division 120 feet back? RICHARD LONGWITH: 128 feet back. THB CHAIRMAN: Does that go back to the garage? RICHARD LONGWITH: Just short of the garage. THB CHAIRMAN: What does it leave about three feet? RICharD LON~WIIIt: Yes,about three feet. I have a snapshot showing a view.of the property. I have a side view also showing the house they intend to keep, showing the barn behind it. The Parrs have no intention of doing any substantial construction. They will leave the houses the present dimensions. They will fix them up to a useable condition, painting and so forth. They don~t intend to build any new structures on the property or to substantiaRy elter the dimensions , side yards or any other dimensions of the present structures. They desire to sell off the one and keep the other and fix it up for their persona~ use. They bought them as is for the type of house they are and have ao intention of tearing down and puttin9 up a new house. I would further like to p~int out from my knowlege of this area , and I.am sure the Board has enough ~ knowlege of it too, I submit that.this division will not ~hange the character of the area.Orient where it is located because of the age of these houses, the fact that no change will be made to the property and that a number ~f houses in this area are on lots which do not have 100 foot frontage. Unless the Board has some questions I don~t believe I have anymore to add. MR. HULSE: What is the object of keeping 80 feet behind the other house? RICHARD LONGWITH: It just keeps the garage. THE CHAIRNAN: Sort of arbitaary division because the garage happens to be therej isn't it? RICHARD LONGWITH: The doors of the garage face the barn, face west, so that if the doors of the garage faced east we could run it right straight back, but otherwise it memls changing the doors of the garage around and moving the garage. MR. HULSF.: What is this six feet shown onthe map. Is this a right of way for the bac~ot? RICHARD LONGWITH: I really don't know. It might be for Mr. Van Tuyl~ I really don~t know. N~. HULSE: It must have been on the original map. THE CHAIRMAN: What condition is the barn in? Southold Tuw,~ Board of Appeals -6- August 15~ 1968 MR, PARR: Worse than the garage w THE CHAIRMAN: You couldntt use it as a garage? MR. PARR: No/ It is raised up so that the entrance to the barn is 2 1/2 feet above ground level. I think it was used at one time for fixing sprouts and things,like that, T}fl$ CHAIRMAN: The only thing that concerns me, I would have to agree with your attorney that it would not change the character of the neighborhood, these places exist here now. The fact that they might be owned by two separate individuals in the future would not change it any. The.only thin9 that bothers me a little is as near as I can figure it, you willcome out of it with about 17,000 square feet~ a~d the peopl~ that you sell to( will have about 7800 squa~ feet. Tax wise~ you would be be~ter off~ I think it would pay you to move the garage /~ you want to keep the garage and divide this property more or less in half. The cost of moving the garage will not be much . I was trying to look at this from your point of view. From our point of view~ to create a lot that is only 7800 square feet is not good. RICHARD LXH~GWITH: Mr. Chairman, my figures are a little over S,000 squ~,re feet~ TH~ CHAIRMAN: The minimum zoning size is 12~$00 square feet. 100t x 125 7. The minimm~in a subdivision is 20~000 square ~eet~ without water. The way t~oces are around here and going up you would be better off i~ you gave them a ~ little more land. I am just trying to pursu~de you now. Do you want to give that some thought. MR. PARR: I donlt think you could really move that 9arage without having it fall apart. We had thought about moving it before. It stands there right now as it is, but I'm afraid if we tried to move the thing it would collaspe on us. T}fli CHAIRMAN: I think that I would have to sug~st that you divide this in half. You would have almost normal size lots. MRo B~RG~N: You would have narrow frontage~ but you would have almost 12~000 square feet in the lots. TH~ CHAIRMAN= I would teaad to forget about the garage. It is almost valueless. As far as the Board is concerned we have to split more like 50 - 50 on this lot size. For zonin9 purposes we would come out with approximately a normal size building lot. You have about 25~000 square feet there. (Possible division of the property was discussed at some lenght. It was agreed it would be best to split this property approximately down the middle.) Southold Town Board (xf Appeals -7- Au9ust 15, 1968 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone present wish to speak against this application? (There was no response.) After investigation and inspection the Board finds that the applicant requests permission to divide property into two lots with two dwellings thereon. The division of property will not change the character of the district since the houses in qUestion have been in existence for a Dnm~er of years. The Board grants the division of this property~ and the property shall be dive,ad as follows: The easterly lot shall be comprised of a frontage of 63 feet, running parallel to the easterly line from south to north from 63 feet on king Street from the easterly lot running parallel to the easterly line to the northerly line on the property. This will leave approximately 71o35 feet on Kin9 Street on the applicantts lot which they are presently residing on. There will he a line which at no point is ¢loeer to the easterly line than 63 feet. The Board finds that strict application of the Ordinance will produce pracitcal difficulties or unnecesaary hardship; the hardship created is Unique and would not be shared by all properties alike in the immediate vicinity of this property and in the sam~ use district; and the variance does observe the spirit of the ordinance and will not change the character of the district. On motion by Mr. Gillispie, seconded by Mr. Hulse, it was P~SOLVED Marvin J. and Natalie Parr, Kin9 Street, Orient, New York, be 9ranted permission to divide property with less than 1~0 foot fronta9e, as provided above. Location of property: N~ side of Kin9 Street, Orient, NewYozk. Vote of the Board: Ayes:- Mr. Giltispie, Mr. Bergen, Mr. Hulse, Mr. Doyen. PUBLIC HEARING: Appeal No. 1196 - 8:00 P.M.(B.D.S.T.), Upon appllcation of Suffolk Outdoor A~vertisin9 Co., Inc., West Main Street, Riverhead, New York, for a special exception in accora~nce with the Zonin9 Ordinance, Article III, Section 300, Subsection 10, and Article IV, Section 408, for permission to erect an off-premises directi~al si~n 6t x 12~. Location of pro~erty: south side of Route 25 near Moores Lane, Greenport, New York, buunded north by Main Road, east by Greenport Homes, Sub., south by Railroad, west by Fl*et Lumber Inc., Fee paid The Chairman opened the hearing by reading the application for a special exception, legal notice of hearing, affidavit attestin9 to tis publication in the official newspaper, and notice to the appl~ant. Southold Town Boar~ Appealw -8- August 15, 1968 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone present who wishes to s~eakfor this application? RICHARD CRON, BSQ.: If it pleases the Board, Richard J. Cron. appear on behalf of the application. For the purpose of the record, I shall like to e~hibit a lease f~r a three year term, starting with June of 1967. CHAIRMAN: This lease might describe what you want to do. RICHARD CC~N, ESQ,: This lease gives us the ~2~t to erect such a sign. It is the standard form lease that the Suffolk Outdoor Advertising uses. THE CHAIRMAN: The landlord hereby leases the tenant a strip of ground on front of lot situated at Greenport with the exclusive right to erect ~ maintain bulletin poster structure and advertising sign structures and the right to use space in the rear of said strip necessary for placing supports or braces to the above name si~ structures and the right to maintain said signs for a term of three years. The tenant may cancel within 30 days notice in writing. The s~mo privilege reserved for the landlord, right? ~. ~B~XFF: No, it is not. are certain conditions. I think i2 you read it all, there TNECHAINMAN= lease by giving 30 is a sta~tard form The landlord reserves the right to terminate this days notice in writing by registered mail. This of lease, right? ~. CRON: The type of lease that Suffolk Outdoor Advertising uses. Besides the application itsele I am sure the Board is well aware of the fact that..... THE CHAIRMAN: You probably have some things that you want to say, but before you say them, one thing we would like to be informed on is ~hat you propose to advertise. What business or types of business, local or nati~-l=do you propse to advertise? N~. CRON: Let me say this. I will try to answer you question, but let me say this. We don*t believe that any valid distinction exists between whether pou say you are advertising a local product or advertising a nati~vl~a~l product, directing to a local products or directing to a national product. In direct answer to you qUestion, it would be local types of businesses and it would not be restricted to those applications which this Board has granted to others such as hotel, motel, restaurant, or what have you. Any valid, legally existing business that wou~ have the use of that sign. Southold To~h Board ~f Appeals -9- A~ugust 15~ 1968 THE CHAIRMAN: Your position is that anybody thatwanted to hire the space could use it? MR, CR(I~: Yes, within legally existing businesses. ~nether it be a national product or whether it be a restaurant or whether it be a lumber yard~ or whatever. It would not be limited to the classifications which this Board happens to favor. TH~CHAIRMAN: That belief of you~s is in direct contradiction to the way the Ordinance is written. Only the business conducted on the premises may he advertised. MR. CRON: I wonder if I could use an Irishman's prerogative, and answer that with a question. I would be interested to know and be shown where in the Ordima-ee itself the section lies with the Board to limit off premises signs to hotels motels restaurants or sim/liar places. CHAIRMAN: That isn't answering my question. MR. CRON: The statement was this is against the belief contained in the Ordinance. I dontt know where that is contained in the Ordinance. T~ CHAIRMAN: The section that you are applying under is Section 300s subsection l0s so letts look that up. CRON: That refers you I believe to Article IV~ Section 408. THE CHAIRMAN: But previous to that it covers in the residential area the customary uses w~ have had in the community over the yearss retails farms garden a~d nursery productss also real estate signs~ signle or double faced not larger than 3s x 4~. And advertising signs "for aale" or listing acreages sale of lots and so on. Ail of these things are provided for in the Ordinance. And signs as provided in Section 408 of this Ordinance~ or as otherwise by specical exception. Then you go to Section 408 and it says u~ler Section 408 - signs - Unless otherwise authorized as a special exception by the Board of Appeals hereinafter provided all of these signs are permitted in a "B" Business District~ A - detached or ground sign - one si~ single or double faceds not more than 6~6" x 12s 6", lower edge no less ~han three feet from ground levels a~d gives the setback from the street and property line and one wall signsi~corpOrated on each building wall ~acing the street and advertising only the business conducted in such building prOvided suoh sign does not exceed a certain square foot~ge~ So those are the sections that we are talkin~ about~ Southold Town Board of Appeals -10- August 15s 1968 MR. CRON: Yes, I believe that would be the only section that would be applicables if one takes the position that any of£ premises sign is prohibited in the Town of Southold. THE CHAIRMAN: These special e~ceptions are guided by a long list ~f requirements as you know. MRo CRON: I would be interested in knowing what the basis of the Board is to grant any off premises signs, THE CHAIRMAN: Getting back to the question that I asked you. What is yo~z reasoning for asking for this sign. MR. CP, I~I= The basis of equal ~eatment, more than an~ other basis. As you well know we do have existing signs which are excessive, THE CHAIRMAN; When you say we. MR. CRON: I mean Suffolk Outdoor Advertising, We have signs which axe excessive by definition in Section or Article IV of the Ordinance. Howevers following the terms of the Ordinance where a sign is limited by d~finition and shall not exceed six and one half feet by twelve and one half feets and taking into consideration that such signs up to that signs have been granted by the Board to other applicantss so~e of whom axe in the business of hotels motels restaurnat and in some cases to those who do not fall within that classification, THE CHAIRF~IN: Churchess places of amusement. MR. CRON: Cbn=her od Commerces~ Long Island Lightingo THB CHAIRM~N: Long Island Lighting as I recall itT they are on business property and they have a wall sign. Their wall sign exceeds the size pezmittedo It is also a considerable distance back from the highway, And I believe that was the reasoning involved in permitting that size sign, The same thing applied to a sign that was used for guiding boats from off shore, A problem of visibility, MR, CRON: It makes it very ~i~ficult to understand what criers position is with respect to signs. I can understand your reasoning for example 9long the lines of the Long Island Lighiing C~any sign, There is a dxstance. But yets there are.many decisions of the Board where it is expressively stated that the maximum size sign permitted anywhere in this Towel does not exceed six and one hakf feet by twelve and one half feet, THE CHAIRMAN: That is in the Ordinance, CRON: This Board is bound by that Ordinance. THE CHAIPd~AN: That size that you mentioned is in the ordina~:e, Yes. $outhold Tow~ Board ~Appeals -ll- OAugust 15, 1968 ~. CRON: There is no place in that Ordinance which permits a size si~n greater than six and h~]~ by twelve and one half feet. No m~tter where you are in the T~wn ~f $outhold. Now, it seems to me that this Boardeeeee THB CHAIRMAN: ~e purpose of a Board of Appeals is to adjust hardships. You may look at it differently. M~. CRC~: But let me say this, you are taling about special exceptions here. You are not talking about variances because of undue hardship, although I will venture to say that many of the applications are made on that basis. ~ut you are taling about special e~eption and not variances and the Board is restricted by virtue of the provisions of the Ordinance which is a legislative act of the Town Board. It canft mak~ its own rules. I don~t see what basis exists for the Board to determine in a given situation that you can put a sig~ 10 feet by 16 feet or what have you~ or what basis is for leaving an excessive sign. THB CHAIRMAN: As I understand this, the Board is required to m-~e rules and regulations for its own use. ~. CRON~: Within the limitations ~ the Ordinance. TBB CHAI~T4AN: Right. For instance the Board determines what day of the week hearings shall be held. As you know there has been tremendous opposition to signs. Not just here, but all over. And in the face of this opposition the Board was required to discover an effective way to permit directional information for people who were travellin~ through Town. Directional signs are concerened with the location of places to eat, slee~, worship~ amusements, m~v~nas, parks, etc., in the interest of the travelling public. What the Board has done, has been do~e in the interest of the local population now in $outhold. M~. CRON: I have no objection to that, but where it effects the rights of others, we donet feel that there is equal treatment. You made the distinction before saying that these are directional in nature, and yet there is no basis for drawin9 that distinction as the Ordinance defines a sign in the Town of Southold. There is abeolutely no basis for ~ou to distinguish between a si~n which allegedly directs and one that allegedly advertises. I will refer you to your ow~ definition of a sign in the Ordinance. 19 a - A sign includes every kidd of billboard, sign board~ device or display, designed arranged used or intended to he used to advertise, announce, direct or otherwise inform, including ~ny writing, letter, figure, symbol or mark painted upon or incorporated in the ex~erior su~ace of a building or structure. If you cun tell me logically how you can distinguish sign that advertises and a sign that directs in the light of definition of a sign as it is co~ltained in Section 19A, of the Ordinance I would like to hear it. Southold Town Board t Appeals -12- ~tust 15~ 1968 THE CHAIRMAN: Our job~ as I understand it, is to interpret the Ordinance. Also & place where people can feel they can come if they have a hardshipj unique or unusualj or need a variance. You can hardly expect to impose a set of rules on a 300 year old TOw. L without some difficulties. MR. CRON: Letts put it this way~ it would be much easier for the applicant to understa~ and swallow a situation if all off-premises signs were prohibited in the Town of Southold. And I mean all signs. It is difficult to swallow a situation where there are some signs. TH~ CHAIRMAN: Some people have been granted directional signs in the interest of the travelling public as explained a moment MR. CRON: You call it directional. I don't distinguish. I d~'t care if it has John Jones Restaurant on there. Itts advertlming as well~ and you mak~ the distinction and call it directional, but there is still no basis. THB CHAIRMAN: You know that the Board is empowered to impose and shuuld impose conditions as required. That would be imposing a conai~on on a definition. If you are going to give a man a sign~ you give it to him with conditions. As to the size~ as to what he puts on it and so forth. You can argue whether such conditions are in the public interest or nots The authority to impose conditions is clear in the duties set forth for the Board of Appeals. MR. CRON: No we seek just what everybody else have been given. THE CHAIRMAN: Except for the size. MR. C~ON: No. I can give you numerous decisions of this Board of signs that have been approved. In fact I can giwe you some that are even excessive. THE CHAIRMAN: The size has been gradually reduced so that the normal size sign granted for an off premises sign~ a dlrecti~al sign, is now four feet by six feet. I think in 1960 when we first started a few larger sized directi~al signs were granted. ~. CRON: The fact that you approve an existing sign with the dimension of siX by twelve can a~ount to giving that person appliaation approved for a six by twelve signe THE CHAIRMAN: What situation are you referring to now~ MR. CRON: You have Townsend Manor Inn~ you have the Mattituck Churches~ you have the Chamber of Commerce. THE CHAIR~%N: They are not six by twmlveso Southold Town Board{ Appeals -13- 15s 1968 MR. CRON: Sures here St. Agnes Church. The sign may not be any more than six feets six inches~ by twelve feets six inches. THE CHAIRMAN: What is the date of th&t? MR. CRON: The oriDinal date of the application is 19~0, T~ECHAIRMAN: The original sign preceded the Ordinancg~ didntt it? Or didntt they have those signs up? MR. CRON: I don't know if they did or not. THE CHAIRMAN: I think you fellows know that we have spent more time on signs than on any other part of this Ordinance. We have had countless ~eetings about signs and what to do about theme MR. CRON: Ail we want is equal treatment. If it is the decision of the Town to e]{m{~ate all off premises signs~ we abide by that decisions but we dontt llke a situation where we can see other p~ople maintaining size signs similar to that which we seek and we are denied merely because we want to put up Ford Motor Compan~ on there and they want to put up Townsend Manor Inn~ or Sterling Harbor Marinas or something. We see little distinction. The size of the sign~ if your bas~ objection is against the sign then it shouldntt matter what appears o~ that si~n as long what is on that sign is not clearly objectional. You can't say that the character of the structure changes merely because you are putting on there something other than hotels motels or restaurant. Signs are all the same. TH~ CHAIRMAN: The aesthetics rem.{- the same. MR, CRON: Right. THE CHAIRMAN: The aesthetic considerations have become more {mportants and I am surprised we don~t have an immense group in here from the Civic Association. MR. ~NNIFF: I would like to say somet~g along these lines. There is an increasing dissatisfaction with the smaller junk~ signs that are all~wed in the Town. Those are the signs that really junk up an area. The small wooden signss they are all different sizes. If you allow signs they should be of an equal size so they can be read easily from an automobiles since that is what they are for. If you look around we are beginning to get ,lot of Neon signs in the Town only because the businessm~n needs to have an attention getter. In addition to this~ I think the feeling toward signs is changing somewhat. It certainly has changed on :he national level, The impact on the economy has been felt wherever the signs have been eliminated. One business after the other going out of business. F~any of the business- men in this Town that use our signs now are hesitant to come here because they feel that they w~ll be in trouble if they doe Yet~ they are very vocal, when you talk to them personally about them. Southold Tow~ Boaxd oX Appeals -14- August 15v 1968 MR. ~NNIFF~ (co~'t) They use ou~ signs, they need them. I am in business in other aspects besides the sign business s and I can not exist without signs. T~ CHAIPJiAN: For the recordj your other business is what? MR. IISNNIFF: I have the North Fork Shipyard and the G~ly Ho Restaurant. Niether c~ those businesses can exist without-a sign, Absolutely ~ .~ossible. We a~e 3 1/2 miles ~ff the road and a winding roads and basically when we get right down to directin9 people all the way from New York to heres the Town allows a sign for m~ competitor. In other words, i~ all signs are to 90 downs okay fines I will close up. You are allowed a sign. M~, ~NNIFF~ Why should I be allowed a sign and not the next man? CHAIRMAN: He is on both sides ~f the fence. MR. HUL~E: In your business you are allowed a signo MR. ~NNIFF: Of course I am on both sides ~f the fence. I would be very foolish to say not. The sign is in the interest ~f the Travelling public. MR. ~NNIFF: It is in the interest c~ Art Ksnniff that I get people there. Not in the interest ~f the travelling public. MR. CRON: It is such a -a~rew distinction really. There is no substance to such a disticntion because the clamor against signss I am sure is based on aesthete~ I think those in the civic association who object just do not like signs, There is no merit to the arguement to say because on this sign we put John Jo~es restaurant , okays and it certainly does not become aesthetely rights at least I don~t think so. TH~ CHAIRMAN: You said the junk we are putting up. Ou~ job is not to _6-eorce the Ordinance, I don't think we have had a sign application in the last year. MR. CRON: These renewals are the same as granting a~ agpli~tion. TH~ CHAIRMAN: The ~own Board does not want to req-lre everyone that has a sign to ~ them a uniform size, You can't ~lame them. There would be an honest objeotio~ to that. Maybe not. MR. K~NNIFF: I don~t think sos Mr. Gillispies I~11 tell you why. I have talkad.to many businessmen in this Town and they wuuld like to have a standard size ~f the standard steel fr~ro sign. This would look nice and in addition to this they can order their print for it mu~h cheaper. · Southold Town BoardO~f Appeals -15- August 15~ 1968 THB C~AIRMAN: As long as we are going into tb/s ~ how would suggest the Ordinance should be changed? MR. ~NN~FF: Right now I have nothing. We appeared before the Town Beard with a proposed new sign ordinance . The man that was there was the same mnn that wort, the sign ordinance for the City of New York. the sa~- man that ~mte the sign Ordinance for Hart~ord~ Conn.~ and 500 Other cities in this Country. He is not a man without qual~.~ications. He does now have connection with the sign industry. THE CHAIRMAN= What was his name? MR. ~F: His ~me slips me at the time. I can get it for yOU, THE CHAIRMAN: The businessments group hired a fellow. MR. ~MRIFF~ That is correct. We spent money in order to do so. ~ CHAIRMAN: I thi~flcyouwere there the night that I asked him about.property where there was 1200 feet down opposite the motel on Route 25. Part of the Wiokhamproperty originally. And he siad there could be a billboard every 100 feet. Do you remember that.? N~, KBNNIFF: That is possible . but it doeanst mean that the Town Roard had to take it as it was written. It was the toughest sign ordinance he had ever written because we asked for it to be that way. We dontt want the Town to look like billboard alleys THE CHAIRMAN~ Well what do you want it to look like as long as we are on the subject? M~. CRO~t I think what has to he determined is do you wa~t off premises signs in the Town or do y~ not w~t ~ ~f pre~ signs ~ ~e T~e I thi~ t~t is the ~sic st~t~9 ~t ~g~ with. A~ then ~ you ~ct~ ~t you do w~t ~f presses signs, h~ do y~ do it without ~scr~t~ aG~st o~ c~ss or one THE CHAIRMAN= That is what we have been trying to doe Nows a fellow comes.in here and applies for a sign for a church. And we say how-~ny people is ~his going rca fl,ct on the North Road. The Church is in Greenport. He s~id last year we had 7.000 out of town visitors at St. Agnes Church. He happen to keep a record of it. It was our belief that it was in the interest of the Townof Southold and fullfil~d the requirements that are necessay to grant a special exceptioal. Just talking ab~t ~ne instance. It was entirely w~thin the prOvince of this Board to grant a special.excepti~for that purpose. We also reduced some church applicati~s whe~ they had a numar of signs. I me.l% how mmny signs do you need? MR. CRCH= That takes me back to m~ qUesti~before. Where lies the authority to distinguish under the Ordinance between a church or other catagory which you have placed a favorable view in. To make the deters{nation that this group or this particular classes under the Ordinance is entitled to an off prem{-es sign. and somebody else Southold Town Board af Appeals -16- August 15s 1968 advertisin9 or directing to somethin9 outside ~f that class is not entitled to a sign, Where lles the authority for that? T}fl$ CHAIRMAN: I recall in lookin9 through some old cases that it had to do with Hempstead where they had an Ordinance that prohibited overhanging signs which is usual in ,lot of places. The Board of Appeals there recognized a problem in directing people to the ~heater on the Main Street in Hempstead, There was .lot of traffic there and they were stopping to inquire where the theater was, In otherwords as you rode down town you cnuldntt see the theater, An overhanging sign here was in the public interest. Now that thought carried thxough here with regard to directing the travelling public, The States for instance directs people to parkss ferryss bridges, and so forth~ That is a different situation though, THE CHAIRMAN: No more distinguishable than someone looking for a church. Mg. CRON: It is not the same situation where you say I will give you an identical piece of property. John Jones comes in and says I want a sign for this piece of property, It is off premises and I want this sign to direct to my m~rina, And you say alright you can have this sign directing to your marina, Put this structure up because it is in the interest of the travelling public. THE C~AIRMAN: It iss isn't it? MR. CRON: I may dispute what you feel is in the interest of the travelling public. I could conceive of anybody coming into this towns a stranger without knowing where any business is in thisTown, Not necessarily a hotels motels or mnrina. Let me get back to my examples The marina goies out of business and you take the piece of paper off the sign, Then he comes in with another application to advertise for a childrents shop right across the street from him, This is denied because this is not in the interest of the travelling public and doesntt fall within this limited classification that you have set up, Now this to me is distinguishable from hanging a sign over a theater. Because the structure remains the same, the only thing we are putting on there is the lettering, T}fl~ CHAIRMNN: One man recently wanted to advertise diapers. We have thought that ~-man who wanted to cash a check or get some money would suspect that the bank would be in Towns If he wanted to get a prescription that he would suspect that the drug store was in Towns It wouldntt be out on a back country road, But there are times when you need a place to eat or sleeps for instance, It has seemed necessary to us to direct the travelling public to this type of facility. Southold Town Board of Appeals -17- August 15s 1968 I~o CRON: By the same toil~n let me go back to you on that. You have the Chamber a~ C~aercee tlc*ugh,ut the Town. You also have the sa~_ banl% the same drugstore withi~l the village of the town and I am sure any a~ those pa~ties could direct pa~ties to any number c~ hotels~ ~otelss restaurants and =~ri~as. I dontt see the distinguishing TI~ CHAIE~AN: I have lived here for many yea~s and I doutt thlml<. I could give you many chamber a~ c~rce addresses. I have a hand.ti= finding the chamber af co=merce. I~ you a~e using that as a source ofd[ information. M~. CRON= That is not the only source ~f information. But I am saying the same source available to the guy who wants the child~ents shop is available to the fellow who wants~ the hotels motel~ or restaurant. THB CHAIRMAN: Okays is there anything else Mt. Cron? MR. CRON: I want you to understand that our whole position is predicated on the fact that sim!Zar size signs are granted to othe~$ in this Town ~f South*id. TH~ CHAI~iAN,, Were granted. MR. CRON: Sti11,~are. When you approve an application is the same as giving them a sign. You cantt tell me ifhhe ¢o~es in and ask for a renewal of a sign six by twelve that this doesn't constitute the giving of a six by twelve sign. Because you could deny that and then he would have to take that sign THE CHAIRMAN~ The situation that we got into here was some of these signs pre-existed the O;dinance. CRON: Wells all of ou~s T~ cHAIRMAN: The Ord/nance prohibited off premisess billboards t~.~f advertising, MR. CRON: If you say the OrdiD~-ces I must divide aW mind in two when I speak about signs here. When you come out and make a statement.that theOrdinance prohibits off premises signs by what authority then an~if you admit that your authority to act as a Board~ administrative Board~ stems from the very Ordinance you are to administera then by what authority can you grant any off premises signse If the Ordinance prohibits off premieses signs whet is your authority to grant any off premises signs. THB CHAIRMAN: Interpretation by the Board of Appeals which is one of our. jobs/ ;~, CRON: But your authority to act comes from that Ordinance. You can't grant, something that is not ~n the Ord/nance. 'Southold Town Board of Appeals -18- August 15~ 1968 THE CHAIRMAN= One of our jobs is to interpret the Ordinance. MR. CRON~ It ~y be to interpret, but within the li~i:tations that the Ordinance dictates. You say that the Ordinance prohibits off premises~ then I don~t see how you can interpret that any other way. You just --~e.the statement that the Orclina~ce prohibits it, ~HE CHAIRMAN: We read ~ectlon 408 which is applicable. This is also applicable under the residence zoning, MR. CRON: ~at you really mean is that the ordinance doesntt prohibit off premises signs and that the ordinance does so permit off premises signs. TH~CHAIRMAN= I am saying how we interpret the Ordinance= As giving us permission.to grant off premises signs by special exception, We further interpret it that these signs be directional in the-public intereste I do~*t think I can m,~ it any clear than that? MR. CRON= But where lies the authority? T~E CHAI~N: It is our interpretation. mr. cronI Where lies the authority if it is your interpretation to grant an off premises sign, where lies your authority then to grant to John lones that is advertising a motel and deny it to John Doe who is advertising a lumber yard, TH~ EHAIRMAN: Spedificallys as I just said, it is our interpretation of the Ordinance~ The rules we have.set up for our own procedures, MR. C~ON: I think we have exhusted the first application~ THE CHAIRMAN= There are several arguements which would apply to all three of.them, ~, CRON: The only distinguishing factor which I would like to point out here with respect to the two suceeding applications is that both are in a "B" business zone areae The other appears to be in a residential areae TH~ CHAI~V~N: We have to handle them separatelye N~. CRON= The~Bourd apparently has not distinguished between a business area and a residential area with respect to any af the other applications where ~ff premises signs have been granted. TH~ CHAIRMAN: Baslcally~ I agree with you on that. MR. c~ON~ I can't find anything in any of the decisions to indicate otherwise. TH~ CHAIRMAN= Is there anyone else who wi~lhes to ask any questions in connectix.with this application? Sou=hold Town Boarc~ Appeals -19- OAugust 15, 1968 MR. CRON: I would just like to reiterate that the same reasons I have advanced with respect to the first application axe to apply equally to the two sue,,din9 applications. THE CHAIRMAN: I donft know if this is relevant to discussion, but off-hand.~o you recall how many signs you have in the Town uf Sou=hold, CRON: There are 13 signs. THE CHAIRMAN: Are they the same ones you applied forlast June? MR. KENNIFF= Yes, that is a different set than these. MR. CRON= Except far the one on Cassidy, where one ~f the 12 by 25 signs were removed, That is why this application is made in respect to that sight. BERGEN: Howard, how many signs do we have in the Town of Sou=hold,. do we have that should have come down but havenft? HC~ARD TERRY, Building Inspector: We are workln9 on it. I can't tell _yOU exactly we axe working on it now. (A general discussion was held on the existing signs in the Town of Sou=hold. Suggestions were made as to the type of sign that should be permitted in the Town of Sou=hold.) THE CHAIRMAN~ Is there anyone else who wishes to sa~ anything? (There was no response.) THE CHAIRMAN~ Is there anyone present who wishes to speak against thisspplicati~n? (There was no response.) THE CHAIRMAN: I am against the application and I suggest=hat we reserve decision.on this so that our Tovm ~ Councel can study the record. On motion by Mr. Gillispie, seconded by Mr, Hulse, it was RESOLVED that decision be reserved on Appeal No. 1197~ application of Suffolk O~tdoom~dvertlsing Co., Inc. Vote of the Board: Ayes=- Mr. Gilllspie, Mr. Bergen, Mr. Hulse, Mr, Doyen. Southold Town Board ~f Appeals -20- August 15s 1968 PUBLIC HEARING: Appeal No. 1198 - 8:10 P.M.(E.D.S.T), Upon application ~f Suffolk Outdoor Advertising Co~pany,~ Inc., West Main Streets R£~erhead, New York~ for a special'exCeption'in accordance with the Zoning Ordinance~ Article III~ Section 408, for permission to erect an ~ffpremises directional sign 12~. Location ~f property= north side of Route 25s Cutchogues New Yorks bounded north by Ralph W. Sterling Bstatess east by New York Telephone Co.s south by Main Road, west by Ralph Sterling Estate. Fee paid The Cha~r-~n opened the hearing by reading the application for a special exceptionj legal notice of hearing~ affidavit attesting to its publication in the official newspaper~ and notice to the applicant. THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anything you wish to say for this particular application? The lease is in evidence here. ~. CRON: I would just repeat for the record that all the reasons and arguements I advanced with respect to the first application have equal significance with respect to this application. And will incor~ate them all by reference. THE CHAIRMAN: And I willpresent the sa~ general objections I presented before. On motion b~ Mr, Gillispies seconded by Mr,Hulses it was RESOLVED that the de~ision be reserved on Appeal No. 1198, applicatlon of Suffolk Outdoor Advertising Co., In. ce Vote uf the Board: Ayes:- Mr. Gillispies Mr. Bergens Mr. Hulse, Mr. Doyen. PUBLIC HEARING: Appeal No. 1199 - 8:20 P.M.(B.D.S.T)s Upon application of Suffolk Outdoor Advertising Co., Inc.; West Main Street~ Riverheads New York, for a special exception in accordance with the Z~ing Ordinance, Artlcle IVs Section 408, for permission to erect an off premises directional sign 6~ x 1~t· bocatio~l of property~ south si~ of Route 2~, Cutchogue~ New Y=k, bounded north by Main Road, ,ashby Moores Lanes or Linden Avenues south by North Fork Country Clubs west by C. Jablonski. Fee paid $5.00. The Chairman opened the hearin0 by reading the application for a special e~ceptions legal notice of hearings affidavit attesting to its publication in the official newspapers and notice to the applicant. THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone wish to speak for this application? ~R. CR~:' I will advance the same reasons that I advanced with respect to .the first two applications. And incorporate all the arguements I made in connection therewith. ' Southold T~n Boaxd ~f Appeals -21- August 15, 1968 CHAIRMAN: You are the owner of Gally Ho Restaurant? MR. EENNIFF: I am THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me there is also a slight difference in this application.in that this would be part of the signj one half of the sign would be used to dire~t to the Gally No Restaurant. CRON: You have that with respect to the other applications. MR. KENNIFF: The signs will be used, if granted, by any business. THE cHAIRMAN: The same remarks that applied to the other ones. MR. CRON: Therecord should indicate that we would not limit ouncselfl~es. THE CHAIRMAN: In other words ~ou might want to take Gally Ho off and put anything on? MR. CRON: That is correct. THE CHAiRMAN: The same thing applies on application 1198, the preceding application. You might or might not want to advertise North Fork Marina and Shipyard on that one, MR. CRON: It might ~ ~itially put up, but ~ might take it down, THE CHAIRMAN: Whatever appears on ~ur present billboards could appear on these also in reduced size. What is ~he billboard size? MR. CRON: The existing ones? THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. CRON: The existing ones in the Town of Southold are twelve by twenty-five.· THE CHAIRMAN: So these are about one-quarter of the size of the signs that are now up, MR. KENNIFP: ~h. ese are nice looking signs. I think you should take a look at .som~z of the junky signs that are going up in this Town. JO~ WIC~4~ Mr. Chairm~nj may I make an observation? I somewhat resent some.of the statements that have been made. On particular as it affects the village of Cutohogue. I happen to be trustee and treasurer of the organizat$on which has fostered the old house, the library~ and the historical society. We have gone to very considerable ex~ense in the public interest to m~e that a/% attractive village. I do not agree that the sign situation in the Town of Southold is ju~. Recently for the very first time ins~me months I made the trip from New York City to Cutcho~ue in the daytime by Routes 25, 58, and 25. And I was impressed by the fact that in the To.of Riverhead there are somewhat less signs than further west. In the Town of Southold Southold Town Board o~ Appeals -22- August 15s 1968 there are infinitely less signs, obviously less signss and any contention that the sign situation in the Town af Southold is junk, s is a mis-statement of fact, Now, if you will recall the original zoning commission report, and our original zoning Ordinance said notwithstanding any other factors within five years gl billboards and some other classes of signs shall come now, Now this five years has been extended and in effect we have had a holding actions Now I am not talking legallys the legal points of the matter. I am saying that the holding action~at w~ have had in the Town of $outhold whether it was good business on the part of t~e Town of Southolds or in the public interests on the part of the Town Boards I am not inclined to aay. My contention is today the sign situation in the Townof Southolds aesthetely is much more pleasing than in any Town to the west of us on Long Island, ~, KENNIFF: Johns we didntt have many signs to beginwiths And the signs that are now going up if you be fair about itT and go look at thems they have been up about a year nows they are about this big (indicating size with hands). THE CHAIRMAN: You mean four by six signs, ~. KENNIFF: NoT Sir you have signs about this big all over this town and.they are stuck on wooden post in any shape or form, They are a~ready starting to be not maintained, THE CHAIRMAN: What type of sign is he talking about Howard? HOWARD TERRY~ Some of these people thatyou have granted a four by 'six sign to didn't use the four b~ six, So that the signs that are being put up are not uniform, Some of them are four by fours some of them are three by fours They axe not a uniform sign, THE CHAIRMAN: That is true, MR. CRON: Let me say this. As an individual I certaim~y ]save no objection for a judicious restriction on signs in the Town &f Southold. But for apparently se[fish reasons I am delighted that there is judicious restriction, This is not our form of contention. Our thought is that we do not feel we are receiving equal treatment, We would have no quarrels and I will reiterate thiss we would have no quarrel with tt~ Ordinance or the adm/niStration of the Ordinance! if all off premises signs were prohibited, Regardless of who they have been granted to in the past. That is not our pointe Our point is that there are some whoare receiving these things. The only dist~tion is the type of lettering that is going on that structu~, This we feel is very arbitrary and unreasonable, (Another general discussion was held on signs in Southold T~ and in other areas.) THE CHAIRMAN: You have incorporated your remarks in this arguemen~ by.reference. I offer the same general objections. On motion by Mr. Gillispies seconded by Mr, Hulses it was Southold Town Board ~ppeals -23- 1Ss 1968 RESOLVED that decision be reserved on Appeal No. 1199s Application ~f tuffolkO~tdoor Advertisin9 Co., I_nc. Vote of the Board~ Ayest- Mr. Gillispies Mr, Bergent Mr. Hulses Mr. Doyen. On motion by Mr. Gillis~ie, seconded by Mr, Bergens it was RESOLVED that the Southold Town Board of Appeals set 7~30 (E.D.S~T.)~ Thursdays August 29s.1968s at the Town Offices Main Roads $outhold~ New Yorks as the time and place of heaxin9 upon application of Robert A a~d Phylliss A. Graebs Woodcl/ff Drive, Mattituck New York, for permission to divide lots and for approval ~f access to two lots in accordance with the State of New York Town Laws Section 280A Location of ~roperty: private road off east side Ole Jule Lanes Mattitucks New Yorks bounded north by private right ~f ways east by private right of ways south by Schiller and Zebroskis west by Staron. Vote of the Board: A~es; -- - ALL On motion by Mr. Doyen, seconded by Mr. Hulse, it was RESOLVED that the $outhold Town Board of Appeals set 7:45 (E,Do$.To)~ Thursday, August 29,.1968, at the Torsi Qffices Main Roads SoutholdsNew Yorks as the tim~ and place of hearin9 upon application of Albert and Thaine Grilli, Washington Avenue~Greenports New Yorks for a variance in accordance with the Zonin90rdinance~ Article Section 303s and Article X~ Section lO00As for epermission to reduce ~rontage. Location of property: north side Washington Avenue~ Greenports New York. Vote of the Board: Ayes:- ALL On motion by Mr. Borgens seconded ;by Mr, Gillispie, it was RESOLVED that the m~nutes of the Southold Town Board of Appeals dated August 1s 1968s be approved. Vote of the Board: Ayes:- ALL The meetin9 was adjourned. rbara C. Dittm~nn~ Secr~a~y uthold Town Board of Appeals