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HomeMy WebLinkAboutTB-03/29/2005-PH SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD PUBLIC HEARING March 29, 2005 5:00 P.M. HEARING ON "A LOCAL LAW IN RELATION TO AMENDMENTS TO SITE PLAN FEE SCHEDULE" Present: Supervisor Joshua Y. Horton Justice Louisa P. Evans Councilman John M. Romanelli Councilman Thomas H. Wickham Councilman Daniel C. Ross Councilman William P. Edwards Town Clerk Elizabeth A. Neville Assistant Town Attorney Kieran Corcoran COUNCILMAN WICKHAM: NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that there has been presented to the Town Board of the Town of Southold, Suffolk County, New York, on the 1 st day of March, 2005 a Local Law entitled "A Local Law in relation to Amendments to Site Plan Fee Schedule". NOTICE IS HEREBY FURTHER GIVEN that the Town Board of the Town of Southold will hold a public hearing on the aforesaid Local Law at the Southold Town Hall, 53095 Main Road, Southold, New York, on the 29th Of March, 2005 at 5:00 p.m. at which time all interested persons will be given an opportunity to be heard. The proposed Local Law entitled, "A Local Law in relation to Amendments to Site Plan Fee Schedule" reads as follows: LOCAL LAW NO. 2005 A Local Law entitled, "A Local Law in relation to Amendments to Site Plan Fee Schedule". BE IT ENACTED by the Town Board of the Town of Southold as follows: Purpose - In order to provide for a simplified fee schedule that reflects the time and expense incurred in the site plan review process, the following amendments to the site plan review fee schedule are necessary. Chapter 100 of the Code of the Town of Southold is hereby amended as follows: § 100-256. Application requirements. § 100-259.2. Fee schedule for site plan applications. A. The fee for new site plan applications, includin~ without limitation applications relatin~ to vacant sites or sites with no previously approved site plan, shall be a flat fee of $500 plus an additional March 29, 2005 2 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule $500 for each acre (or fraction thereof) in excess of the first acre, plus $.10 for each eross square foot of proposed construction. B. The fee for amended site plan applications shall be a flat fee of $250 plus $.10 for each eross square foot of proposed construction in excess of the square footaee of construction included in the previously approved site plan. C. The fee for a~ricultural site plan applications, exceptin~ retail winery operations, shall be a flat fee of $500. SEVERABILITY If any clause, sentence, paragraph, section, or part of this Local Law shall be adjudged by any court of competent jurisdiction to be invalid, the judgment shall not affect the validity of this law as a whole or any part thereof other than the part so decided to be unconstitutional or invalid. EFFECTIVE DATE This Local Law shall take effect immediately upon filing with the Secretary of State as provided by law. COUNCILMAN WICKHAM: These are modifications of the previous fee schedule. I have information here that this has appeared on the Town Clerk's bulletin board outside, it has appeared as a legal in the local newspapers and I have a comment from the Southold Town Planning Board, if I can find it here. There is a lot of paper, "The Planning Board has reviewed the proposed resolutions and the associated changes. We have all agreed that the proposed changes to the legislation will simplify the fee schedule on site plans and the Planning Board recommends the adoption of the changes." I also have a notice from the Suffolk County Department of Planning, which essentially says this is a matter for local determination, as there is no apparent countywide or inter-community impact. And that is all I have, Mr. Supervisor. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Thank you, Councilman Wickham. With that being said, I open the floor to the public to address the Town Board on this specific public hearing. Are there comments from the floor? Yes, Mr. Swiskey? WILLIAM SWISKEY: William Swiskey, Greenport. To put it in simple terms, if I were building a 3,000 square foot house on one acre, how much would my fees increase? SUPERVISOR HORTON: This wouldn't affect any residential dwelling. This is pertinent only to site plan. MR. SWISKEY: Alright. So, site plan for what? SUPERVISOR HORTON: Site plan is defined to commercial uses. MR. SWISKEY: Oh, alright. Thank you. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Thank you, sir. Actually, I want to clarify that. There is a difference between, there also is residential site plan which is for essentially vacant land that will be coming in, not as a subdivision but treated as a site plan. But wouldn't affect single and separate lot. MR. SWISKEY: Alright. Thank you. March 29, 2005 3 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule SUPERVISOR HORTON: Indeed. Are there other comments from the floor? Yes, Ms. DeBold. JULIE DEBOLD: My name is Julie DeBold, Long Island Farm Bureau and I have a memorandum from our Executive Director, Joseph Gergela from Long Island Farm Bureau regarding the proposed amendment. And he would like me to read it into the minutes. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Certainly. Feel free. MS. DEBOLD: "To Southold Town Supervisor Joshua Horton and Southold Town Board members, regarding proposed a Local Law in relation to amendments to site plan fee schedule. Long Island Farm Bureau acknowledges the Town's need to periodically review and revise its fee schedule. This legislation proposes to increase the agricultural site plan fee from $300 to $500. We appreciate the aspect of a flat fee, with no additional add-ons for acreage or square footage. Long Island Farm Bureau believes, as defined by New York State Agriculture and Markets Law, that a retail winery operation should fall within the scope of the agricultural site plan. That law is New York State Agriculture and Markets article 25AA, agricultural district section 301, definitions number 11 Farm operation, means the land and on farm buildings, equipment, manure processing and handling facilities and practices which contribute to the production, preparation and marketing of crops, livestock and livestock products as a commercial enterprise, including a commercial or sporting operation as defined in subdivision 13 of this section, such farm operation may consist of one or more parcel of owned or rented land, which parcels may be contiguous or non-contiguous to each other. Also, per our September 2004 meeting with Southold Town government officials, Planning and Building Departments, it is our understanding that temporary greenhouses are exempt from these proposed amendments. In its efforts to promote the agricultural industry and tourism in Southold Town, Long Island Farm Bureau encourages the Town Board and Town agencies to continue to work with the farming community to foster a mutually beneficial relationship, one which nurtures economic growth while preserving the rural character of Southold Town." Thank you and I have copies for each of you. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Thank you very much. You can, if you don't mind, just bring them up to me and I will make sure they get into the record. Thank you so much, we appreciate it. Would anyone else care to address the Town Board on this public hearing? Yes, Mr. Baiz. CHRIS BAIZ: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the Board. My name is Chris Baiz and on most occasions I am from Southold. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Excuse me. Ms. Egan? Ms. Egan, that is, you are out of line, making comments from the floor. Every person ends up stating their name and place of residence into the record and I appreciate your interest in that, but I will make sure it gets done. Thank you. MR. BAIZ: Thank you and as I have given you all my salutation, I shall start. About 30 years ago, the State of New York passed new legislation in the state called the Farm Winery law, which allowed a very fledgling industry in New York State to go from 19 wineries at that time to today, something over 220 wineries. In that time, we have watched the Town of Southold pass legislation over and over again that always tries to constrict the development of farm wineries in the Town of Southold. Town of Southold is the only town that has legislation, in all of the towns in the State of New York, that requires a farm winery to have an adjacent 10 acres of planted vineyards with it. Now, needless to say, March 29, 2005 4 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule most farm winery operations are going to need a source of fruit to begin with, so they will have their own acreage, whether it is contiguous to their place of preparation and marketing of their farm product called wine. My concern is that between that piece of legislation and others that are now on the books in the Town of Southold and now this one in addition, that singles out a retail winery as separate from all other agriculture in contradiction to the state laws both at the farm-winery law level and also in the ag and markets district law by the state, which does say and I will repeat a little bit of what Ms. DeBold said from the Farm Bureau, to the production, preparation and marketing of crops etc. Legal counsel at the Ag and Markets Commissioners Office of Agriculture and Markets have indicated that production of is our great crop when it comes to the winery industry. The preparation of includes the facility in which that crop is made into wine. And marketing of is that segment of the operation where the wine may be sold from. Here we see again an effort to try to circumscribe and corral and lock in this industry when, you know, the guys out here that are involved in the industry and we know have about 14 wineries in the Town of Southold, these guys, believe it or not, it looks like they got a lot of money out there but to make these businesses break even is a struggle at the very best and they are having a very difficult time. And here we are, we have got one more issue that circumscribes retail wineries out of this and I don't know what the law means by a retail winery because a winery is the place for the preparation of; the marketing of happens, if you will, in the tasting room portion of a building that might also have a co-function of being the site of preparation of or the winery, per se. now, a lot of the folks that are trying to make a go of it out here in the Town of Southold in this industry are small growers, such as myself and you know, we work with very constrained, under capitalized budgets, just trying to get one foot in front of the other and something like this that segregates out part of our opportunity to develop a business here and to plant more lands and vineyards, to plant more land preservation and conservation through the planting of these vineyards, really impedes our ability to do this. I mean, I am concerned because I have one friend who after three years of simply trying to get his farm winery site plan approved, has given up and he sold his vineyards out to one of the other vineyards because he just gave up on building a 3,600 square foot winery and tasting room because of all the stuff that he has had to go through. Three years, that is unreasonable. Anything over six to eight months is unreasonable in time to get something like this approved .... SUPERVISOR HORTON: If I may just for a moment because you have made some valid, interesting points but I am familiar with that application and we had a lengthy discussion about a lot of these hang-ups and I want to make it very clear that the Town has worked... MR. BAIZ: I know it is not all the Town's fault .... SUPERVISOR HORTON: IfI may, the Town has worked very hard to expedite and you know, move in a very expeditious manner, agricultural plans and we have experienced months if not years of hang- ups with the Suffolk County Department of Health and you know, the Farm Bureau we looked to for assistance in breaking down those barriers that we have jointly been fighting to break down. MR. BAIZ: Okay. Well, anyway... SUPERVISOR HORTON: I just want to make that point clear. MR. BAIZ: .... and I think as we get more and more of this and 'oh, by the way, you have got to check this one off that gets you in with the Town of Southold as opposed to the rest of the State of New March 29, 2005 5 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule York' again, this is something going on the books here that doesn't exist in any other town in the State of New York. I mean, we are trying to operate in the most expensive agricultural environment in the State of New York and you know, this is just one more impediment to the process. So, I could keep going on but I would like to suggest you table this local law tonight until you can change paragraph C, simply to state that the fee for agricultural site plan shall be a flat fee of $500 and just leaving out excepting retail winery operations and I, there is nothing in here that deals with the other issue that was raised by the Farm Bureau, a representative of the Farm Bureau and that simply is the temporary greenhouses... SUPERVISOR HORTON: I think the reason temporary greenhouses aren't addressed in this is because temporary greenhouses, correct me ifI am wrong, don't require a site plan. MR. BAIZ: Well, are we comfortable with that? The Farm Bureau understands that, as they understand what the proposed law is saying, what you all are putting forth that temporary greenhouses are exempt from a site plan fee as far as agricultural site plan fees are concerned. Anyway, to sum up, I would like you to table this until you can change the language and see and I mean, everything else about a farm winery is an agricultural site plan until you get to that 200 to 400 square feet, in most cases a building that is the retail tasting area, which is as Ag and Marketing says, the marketing of your crop portion should be qualified as an agricultural building site. Okay? SUPERVISOR HORTON: Thank you, Mr. Baiz. Are there other comments from the floor on this public hearing? (No response) I would welcome some discussion from the Board while the hearing is still open. COUNCILMAN WICKHAM: I would like just to comment briefly on it. I think the Board is making an effort to be supportive of agriculture and wineries and the industry, the grape industry that has been so important to the Town. Speaking just narrowly to this particular public hearing, of setting the, re- setting, adjusting the fees for site plan, the purpose is to try to (inaudible) the fees somewhere in sync with the amount of work that the Planning Board and the Planning staff are putting into it to review it and also the Building Department. And the coordination of all those departments. Wineries are a significant public place for the public to come, there are many people who visit, there are a lot of cars, there is a lot of public access and interaction with the structures and the building. And it was the feeling of the people who presented this and the discussion that the Board had, at the time, that the amount of work to review a site plan for a winery really is quite significant and the potential for problems in view of that, the numbers of people, is something that really requires quite a bit of care and I think that is one of the reasons why the fee was established as part of a regular business and not reduced. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Thank you, Councilman Wickham. Are there other? MR. BAIZ: May I ask for further clarification? SUPERVISOR HORTON: Again, please re-state your name. MR. BAIZ: Chris Baiz, Southold. March 29, 2005 6 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule SUPERVISOR HORTON: Thank you. MR. BAIZ: Again, just following that point, Councilman Wickham, if a farm winery and its place for the preparation of its crop takes up a total of 8,000 square feet between the wine making and the barrel aging and the case storage and the bottling and everything else and of that 8,000 square feet, 400 square feet in that building is to be the tasting room area, I mean that is an area that is, I don't know, half the size of this room or smaller, I mean, how do you make the distinction at that point as to are we just working on that 400 square feet that is really the public side of the business .... SUPERVISOR HORTON: Mr. Baiz, may I ask a question that is pertinent to the point that you are making, so I can get a better understanding, in a winery of which I am not as familiar with wineries as you are and I also don't drink, so I don't go buy wine .... MR. BAIZ: I have sparkling grape juice for you. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Good, good. Well, if your site plan is in compliance, I will come by. The, in a winery, is the public space just limited to the retail component or do wineries also market tours and sell passes or sell tickets to tours of the production facility? Is that also part of the operation? MR. BAIZ: There are a few that do that and it is typically the largest facilities that do do that. And, you know ..... COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: Can I just ask? MR. BAIZ: Sure. Yes. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: You know, you brought a point up of how they determine, you know, if they only use 400 square feet. I am going to use a scenario of someone wants to open up a bakery and 80 percent of it is to bake the goods in the back and 20 percent of it is to sell the goods in the front. The site plan requirements are going to be for that facility, the septic need, the parking needs and the public entrance. So, you know, it has got to be treated the same way. A bakery or any other store is under the same financial, high end, Long Island, just like the farmers are and they have to go through the same hoops to create their business, even though they are only going to use 20 percent of it for retail use. They have to be treated the same way, in my mind, so, as far as tabling it, I am not with you on that one. MR. BAIZ: Well, fortunately for the case of farm wineries they do come under the umbrella of the Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets whereas bakeries don't. A bakery would be considered a commercial place of business that could be sited only... COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: Right. Retail sales are retail sales. We are talking retail sales here, we are not talking growing, that is different, you are covered under ag, you have got all the protections in the world. But when it comes to retail use and in and out of the public, site plan becomes involved because you are talking public safety, you are talking the proper drainage, you are talking the proper parking, you are talking the proper entrance and exit onto the state highways and county highways, so it requires site plan. You know, why shouldn't it? When you look at it that way, if you are going to March 29, 2005 7 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule talk about the retail public use, why should a winery that is selling wine be treated different from anybody else? I am not talking about your production, treat that differently, you are covered under Ag and Markets and you have protection from god on that one but your retail use is your retail use for anybody in my mind, I don't care what you are selling, if it is retail use and the public is walking in and out, you should fit under the same categories. MR. BAIZ: Well, you can say that and again, I point out that a farm winery falls under the jurisdiction of the Ag and Markets Commission .... COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: Your production. MR. BAIZ: .... in Albany as opposed, well, for production and for the marketing of... COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: That is a broad statement, marketing, because is it retail marketing .... MR. BAIZ: ...the lawyers at Ag and Markets... COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: .... or is it .... MR. BAIZ: .... the lawyers at the Ag and Markets will tell you it is for the retail marketing of your farm crop, i.e., wine. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: Does that mean putting it into a box in that room so you could sell it retail or does that mean that people are going to walk in off the street and park there? MR. BAIZ: Exactly. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: So there is the question. You know, retail marketing could mean that is where I process it and put it in a box and sell it retail... MR. BAIZ: John .... COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: So, you know, it is a fine line. MR. BAIZ: All I am saying is, this is just one more little piece of armor .... COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: I understand. MR. BAIZ: .... that the Town of Southold is trying to put around... COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: A business. MR. BAIZ: .... an industry and around the industry of agriculture in this Town. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: Around a retail business. March 29, 2005 8 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule MR. BAIZ: Having a viable agriculture industry. There are over 2,000 acres in the Town of Southold that owe their existence in agriculture to the vineyards right now. And that is a hell of an investment and most of these guys have done during the period of declining prices. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Mr. Baiz? MR. BAIZ: Yes? SUPERVISOR HORTON: The, first, just to be clear, this Town Board has been overwhelmingly embracing and worked hard to promote the agricultural community in Southold Town and I have worked personally with you .... MR. BAIZ: Okay. SUPERVISOR HORTON: ... and we will continue in that vein. I think some of the points have been raised to the Town Board also the Planning also largely have come from members of the business community, in regard to, just like John said, I had a person who operates a liquor store or a wine store just the other day say to me, 'why am I paying taxes on a piece of commercially zoned property to operate my liquor store, when I don't even sell as much wine as a lot of the wineries?' and I think that some of these things have, you know, the Board has been grappling with and you know, the Planning Department and the Ag community has been grappling with and some of the other points that have been raised also by members of the business community and again, there is room for open dialogue on this obviously. Some of the other points have been raised that I have heard are, ifI was a liquor store or a wine store and I gave tours and allowed catering to take place in my facility but I wasn't an agriculturally zoned piece of property, I would be required to have a site plan. I mean, that is a real, that is a very valid, legitimate point that has been raised throughout the Town and in the business community to members of the Board. So I think it is important to understand some of the context in which we are grappling with this. MR. BAIZ: Okay. Again, back to Councilman Wickham's discussion before, again, I raise the point, how do separate out that retail corner of the agricultural facility and here I am sort of giving you a peace offering at that point but if a building is going to be 6,000 or 8,000 square feet and it is predominantly for storage and... SUPERVISOR HORTON: And tours and weddings. MR. BAIZ: I mean, believe me, people do not go back out into the warehouse where the wine is aging in barrels. SUPERVISOR HORTON: I can tell you, Raphael didn't have a good site plan, it would be a big problem because you know .... MR. BAIZ: Don'traise that individual situation... March 29, 2005 9 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule SUPERVISOR HORTON: Well, I mean it is important though, because you have to be consistent across the board and that, Raphael as I understand it is probably booked every weekend from Memorial Day to past Labor Day with big events, big weddings. MR. BAIZ: And they understand how to stay in business, but they will never get a return on that investment. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Well, that is not my business and I wouldn't make that comment. MR. BAIZ: Well, I am just again, most of an agricultural facility, to produce the farm product called wine is the back room part of the business. It is agricultural by the definitions of the state and I looked for this opportunity where the Town of Southold can get off the page where it winds up being the one town in the state that has all these other little rules of the game that inhibits investment out here as opposed to being somewhere else. SUPERVISOR HORTON: The, I would like to ask a question of, if I may, I generally don't ask questions of members in the audience but Long Island Farm Bureau, this question is for, is it the case that no other town in Long Island has a fee for site plan for wineries? Is that true? I just simply don't know. MS. DEBOLD: I have no idea. SUPERVISOR HORTON: I don't think that to be the case but I could be wrong about that. MR. BAIZ: You can focus very narrowly on just this one point but then you add all the other points .... SUPERVISOR HORTON: But that is the point that you are addressing, I am just trying to understand it. MR. BAIZ: I am just simply asking that until we can change the language in paragraph C, that we table this proposed local law. Okay? SUPERVISOR HORTON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Baiz. There has been good input provided. Would anyone else care to address the Board on this public hearing? (No response) Would the Board care to leave this hearing open or close it? COUNCILMAN EDWARDS: I am ready to close it. I would like to comment. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Would you like to make your comments part of the public hearing? COUNCILMAN EDWARDS: The point that Mr. Baiz raised is a good one because the word winery is very specific and it is production related. At the same time, I think the points that Councilman Romanelli makes are also good. The analogy to the bakery is a very good analogy and I think it may very well be that we should come back and at least look at clarifying the language of what do we mean when we use the word winery. On the other hand, the purpose of this legislation is to adjust fees and I see no reason to hold the legislation hostage to further discussion about something that is already in the March 29, 2005 10 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule law. You know, at some point, it may very well be that we could discuss that but right now I think we need to move the fees to make them consistent with the amount of work that the Planning Department puts into them. And .... COUNCILMAN ROSS: And I join in the comments, I join in those comments. I think this legislation addresses fees and so my vote is clear. It does not address what is or is not subject to site plan approval, that is set forth in the code and the interpretations of the ZBA. This addresses the fees for site plan applications and that is how I will be voting on it, so I am clear for the record. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: And just to clarify that, I would make one comment. It is a flat fee for agricultural use, it is $500 and it is no more, where any other business is $500 plus your square footage, which could be thousands of dollars, it goes on. So agricultural use is a flat fee, you could do your 80,000 square foot building and that is $500. COUNCILMAN WICKHAM: But John, I think the exclusion of wineries kicks wineries into the commercial categories. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: Because it is a retail commercial use, that is why. COUNCILMAN WICKHAM: So it does not apply to what you just said. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: An ag structure does. Winery doesn't. SUPERVISOR HORTON: What I think John is saying is that the production of wine could take place in a building separate from the retail area without site plans. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: That is right. SUPERVISOR HORTON: That is how I interpret what you are saying. COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: Right. COUNCILMAN WICKHAM: I would just like the discussion among the Board members, we had quite a discussion about this and if you recall, we considered having a different fee for wineries when we discussed it and ultimately we came up with the figure we have in the public hearing, I am open to holding this, having another discussion at the work session and seeing where we come out on it. I don't feel strongly about a huge change but we have heard some testimony; what do we lose by waiting two weeks and having another work session discussion? SUPERVISOR HORTON: Okay. The hearing is still open. Are there other Board members that would like to add comments to the public hearing? Mr. Corcoran? ASSISTANT TOWN ATTORNEY CORCORAN: Mr. Baiz just asked a question as to how you would apply this to an overall facility that might have production as well as retail components and I think a fair reading of it, as it is, it is up to the Board to decide whether to change it or not is that such a March 29, 2005 11 Public Hearing-Amendment to Site Plan Fee Schedule facility would be charged a flat fee of $500 and then the sliding scale as to acreage and construction square footage would only be applied to the retail component and not to the production component. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Okay. That actually adds further clarification, too. Which actually addresses exactly what Mr. Baiz requested to have addressed. So all that conversation led us to this point. Thank you, Mr. Corcoran. Are there other comments the Board would like to add to this public hearing? COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: Close and vote. SUPERVISOR HORTON: Okay, I will close this public hearing. Elizabeth A. Neville Southold Town Clerk