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Home My WebLink AboutZBA-07/15/2004 Hearing 2 ~ ' TONN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BO~R.b 'OF ABBE:-~S ~p~:,[~ 2OLEfTY C,F SUFFOLK : STATE OF NEW YORK ~ 3 5 T O ~I N 0 F S O U T H O L D 6 7 Z iD N I N G B 0 A R D 0 F A P P E A L S Southold Town Hall 10 53095 Plain Road SouEhold, New York 11 Jul}' 15, 2004 12 9:30 a.m. 13 Board Members Presen~ : L ; 14 RUTH OLIVA, chairwoman 15 LYDIA TORTOPJe, Beard Member 16 ,~E~&RE P. ~usHRIN~EK, Board Member ii J~tIES DINIZiO, Board Member 18 LINDA K0WALSKI, Board Secretary 20 2~sent: Board Member Vincen~ Orlando ~C~ 22 ORIGINA ",~ '~ 2s AL~G ~ ~ Z~O4 COUR% REPC, RTiNG 32,ID TRANSCRIPTION SEP. VICE t631} 878-8047 2 1 2 CHAIRWOHY$10LIVA: I'd like to call order our regularly scheduled meeting of 3 2004 . The first hearing is Elaine Nesin on Grill 4 Pond Lane. They wish to build a home and relinq~ish Eheir right to live on their boat_ Is 5 someone here to speak for it? MS. GALLAGHER: Hi, Cournney Gallagher 6 representing Elaine ~nd Arthur Nesin. In front ef you they have signed a letter 7 saying the5' have given up their rights the boat. IY's jnst going Es be used for 8 recreational purposes_ I~l ~he previous covenan~ ~haE was written up in 1978, 1N , ~, iE was two 9 boa~s ~o be docked there for residential purposes, li?ing on uhose boats. There will only be one 10 boat docked on their dock, and n~e,f will not be living on than boat. So as far as the use 11 variar~ce uha~ we're requesting, if there's any other information you need from me, please just 12 let me know. CNAIRWOPL~2~ OLIVA: Jim? 13 BOARD MEMBER DINiZIO: It was clear ho me Eta reason why uhe building inspec:or denied uhis 14 ~,'as ~hat as a condition to a variance to a special excep:ion you covenanued the land, or tt~e 15 applicant did, so ~hat no house could be built Lhere at the s~me time Ehe boat was there. And I 16 could find no,ting in uhe Town that says this is rzc, t a buildable lot. There is a mention, a 17 reference to it in the decisiox~ in the Planning Board, bun I could find no reference that said 18 ~his particular lot in this neighborhood is not a buildable lot. So I have no ebjecuion whaEssever 19 r~o granting Dr rescinding the special exception or hewever ~.,~e ge abouu iE and letting this individual 2,0 building a home. THAI R~ [O[,Ir~2[ OLIVA: Lydia? 21 NS. TORTOP2~_: As long as we don't end up two uses en this property. 22 C~Ai RWC,MAN C,L I .~_~. gert!-? BOARD HEPIBER GOEHRIN,SER: I jus~ don'~ 23 know if need be -- and i have r~o qualms about ~he present applicants, i'm ~alking abom~ subseq~ent 24 cwners -- I don't knew if it would inveigle filing of a cove~an~ wi~h ~he count,/ clerk, EhaE 25 ,that cc. venan~ goes along ~x, iEh the deed that t:here be ns occups.~ing of an} watercrafE simultaneously Jell,' lB, 2004 3 1 2 with living in a home on the site. CHAiR~7OHAN OLIVA: We can make ttlat a 3 condition. BOARD MEHBER GOEHRINGER: I think that 4 would be a positive way of doing it, and i~ would clear up any future issues ehat may occur with 5 this ov~er or any subsequent owners. BOARD HEHBER DiNIZIO: I would be 6 concerned abou~ restricting this iot ~o anything other than wha~ an,_,, euher person could do in this 7 neighborhood. CHAiRNONU~2~ OLIVA: ThaE' s what we' re 8 saying. BOA2e_D MEHBEN DINIZIO: Ne're putting in 9 the decision thau this person can't have people sleeping en that boau. 10 CN_~IRWOPL'%N OLI,~ZA: Living on ute boat. SST TOWN ATTY CORCORAN: You could l~eveke 11 the prior special exception. BOARD HEHBER DINIZIO: That's what I 12 uhink we ought to do. ASST TOWN ATTY CORCORAI, I: Bring you te 13 the status quo. BO_.~i~_D HEHBER DINiZIO: Hew do we handle 14 the covenan~ ? BOARD SECY KONALSRI: There was nouhing 15 given that there was a covenan~ already filed on the first special exception. 16 BOARD [.~EPLBER DINiZIO: There' s one already. I'm really learning about this covenants 17 thing_ Hy concern is when these people ge te sell it, are these people going to ha,,~e a o~ovena~t 18 sa!,ing that it's not a buiidable lot. BOAP_D I~EHBER TORTORA: Are you aware efa 19 C and R filed with the county? P.'IS. GALLAGHER: With the county ne, with 20 the 'Town_ BOARD ~{EI'.[BER TORTOP~-'~: Then El~e covenant 21 would be revoked when the permiu is re,~oked, cerrecn? 22 BOARD HEMBER DINIZIO: Playbe we jusE me~-~tion that in the decision that that covez~ant 23 required - BOARD NIEMBER TORTOP~: We' re revoking 24 permit which also includes the covenant which was included in the permit. Simple. 25 ,2HAIRWOHA~[ OLIVA: Jerry? Be,~.RD ~[EMBER ~OEHRIN~ER: WhaEever is July iS, 2004 1 2 easier. I just don't want to ha_re this situation in the future with these lots an~ in general with 3 any future waterfron~ lots that we may grant houses on_ it's basically the same situation. ~ it'S a substandard lot, and we're not expecting anybody no live in the boat; we're expecting them S no use the boat for recreational propers_ CHAIRWOk~i'~ OLIVA: I'd like to ma~e a 6 ms.~ion closing the hearing and reserve decision until later. 7 (See minutes for resolution.~ 8 CHAIRWOM~2,I OLiVA: Next hearing is Diana Fischer who wishes Eo build a house on North Lane 9 in East Marion that's less than 50 fee~ from the property line_ 10 HR_ HERMAn, S: Robern Hermann of Eh-Consultants, 1319 North Sea Road in 11 Southampton. We are here this morning asking for 12 ~ariance relief because despite ~he fact that the area of ~he suhjec~ parcel is significantly larger 13 than what is require~ by the R%0 zone and ~han of ~he neighboring parcels in the surrounding 14 community, a relatively limited ion depth exists due no a number of factors, primarily those 15 associated with the wetlands with Marion Lake_ The lot, first of all, was nearly five 16 ~imes as long as it is wide and its maximum ion ,~ep~h in the center of the parcel is about 170 17 fee~. But when you take away from than dept~ the freshwater wetlands along the boundary of N[arien 18 Lake the 7~ foot non-disturbance, non-fertilization buffer that has Oeen imposed by 19 the New Yor~ State Departmen~ of Environmental Conservation, the restriction that the contractor 20 cannot clear within this Buffer or disuurb it in any way, even temporarily during construction and 21 finally take away the ~0 foot setback requirement pursuant to zoning, the effective depth of your 22 building enxelope is reduced no approximately 32 feet_ These restrictions associaneO with the 23 weulan~s are critical for Ehe Board to bear in mind because without those restrictions we 24 wouldn't need to be here asking for zoning relief. Now, even with these restrictions the mere 25 ~han 2.3 acre size would suill in theory afford and n}~ically invite a substantially larger July 15, 2004 1 2 developmenn proposal than what Miss Fischer has proposed; bu~ rather nhan sprawl the development 3 out along the roadway, Hiss Fischer is proposing a relatively modest foonprint of 1,S00 square feet 4 i~cluding nhe carport and porck, winh no ~ccessorv structures and is essentially proposing to connain 5 and cluster this development within a defined area. While doing se creates the need for greater 6 relief ~han we would have to request or perhaps even request at all for a much longer, skinnier 7 house, we believe we're offering a grea~er benefiu Eo both the environment and the character of the S neighborhood under nhe current proposal ~y essentially, one, creating a developed area nhat's 9 much mere similar to than of the surrounding lots; and two, allowing more than two acres of woodlands 10 and much of the property's frontage along North Road to remain natural and undisturbed. 11 in short, if you look an the development ef ~he surronnding lots, some of ~hese are easily 12 ~0 feet from the road, enhers are much less nhan ~0 feet from the road. They're very close te nhe 13 read but the development is substannially similar on all lots_ The development is contained within 14 a parnicular area, typically with a one or Ewe snory dwelling and a garage. 15 CHAIRWOM}2[ OLiVA: With the map, Fir. Hermann, so the house will be jusn about where on 16 the property, if you could poinE? MR. }[ERHA~N. If you look an the surve}~ 17 that was sub~itEed, it's kind of right here in the center where you're going to get the greates~ lot 18 depth, and there's abeun a 9,000 sqmare font area where all the development in nhe lee is going te 19 be contained. Fha point i'm nrying to make is nhat in order to achieve a greater -- lee me say 20 nhis first, nhe wetlands compel us to be here for almost any dwelling, bun in order to get a beheer 21 setback from the road er to avoid asking for variance relief au all, Hiss Fischer could 22 build, certainly at greater expense, but could build a much longer, skinnier house along North 23 Road rather than keeping a compact house here and asking for variance relief_ Ne Ehink chat given 24 how much of nhis area right now along nhis roadway is undisturbed woodlands, Hiss Fischer is 25 basically saying she's willing to maintain almost all of Ehat_ It's ever 55,000 square..feet thau's July 15, 2004 1 2 in a nond~sturD~nce }}~f~6b Zone. So we think ~t's a better idea for the community te cluster the 3 development within a confined area and leave all the rest ef the area to the easn and west in a 4 natural conditior~. It will maintain the woo{~iand appearance, it will maintain people's views 5 through ehat, particularly in the winter, of Marion Lake, so one way er the other we have to 6 come to Ehe Board arid our suggestion is that the very modest proposal ne contain the development 7 within one area of the property would be preferable to building a long, skinny house even 8 at ~he gain of ge~ing a greater setback from the road. 9 So ~hau's what we would like the Board te approre. Hiss Fischer is here, her builder Peter 10 DiNicola is here, if the Board ,ioes ha~e any questions about what we're proposing to de. 11 CHAIR~Of',~I OLIVA: Hr.,,~o=nrzng~r~ ~ ~ ~ ~.~ BOARD HEMBER GC, ENRINGER: i've seen the 12 property, it's absolutely beautiful as the chairperson has sta~ed and I have abseiuEely ne 13 objection. MR. HERIvlA}~: Thank you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Miss Tertora? BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: i am looking at the 15 survey. I just want te ge through a couple things. The surve]~ shows 146, 390 and 171 along 16 North L~ne? HR. HERMANN: 146 feet and 390 feet and 17 171, }Fes. BOARD MENBER TORTORA:S~'~ in essence you 18 have 707 feet plus/minus on North Road and of that 707 fee~ aieng North Road, you are reqllesti~lg a 19 variance on 55.2 feet or leu's round it up to 60, whate%er, i~'s a lery small variance. BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: It's a t%,~o 21 variance; it's diminimus. I have ne objection_ think you have done a remarkable job in trying to 22 cempi}' with all the regulations and I have ne objecuic, ns whatsoever. 23 ,2HAIRWOH2~I OLiVA: Jim? BOARD MEMBER DINiZIO: No objections_ 24 CHAIRWOH}=N OLIVA: I will concur with everybody_ It's a beautiful piece ef property and 25 you have ~ried ~o locate it with the best depth uhat you could. I have no objections either. Jul!/ lB, 2004 7 1 2 MR. HERHA~N: Chairwemar~, ah the risk ef unnerving m5' client, I wanU to be clear that 3 fron~ ?ard setback is 50 feet, i~'s non a two fronU yard eariance we're asking for. Everything 4 el~e ~ou ~ave said is ~rm~e, bun I don't wan~ ha,~e ~he decisi©:-~ challenged or~ a technioal~y. ~ BOARD ~.~EP,~BER TORTORA: But the disapproeal actually s~ates ~hat i{ is 35 feet_ 6 HR. ~ERHAi,~N: i~ dens, bu~ ~here was an amencied nouice ~hat was issued and Hiss Kowals~_i 7 has ~ha~ in her file. C~L~iP~O~_N OLIVA: Is uhere anybody else 8 in ~he audience ~hat wisk~es te speak for or againsu chis application? ~f Not, I'il make a ~ motion ~o close the hearing and reserve decision nn~il la,er. 10 {See minutes for resolution.) 11 CHAIRWOMP~/q OLIVA: The next hearing is for David Hoffmarl on Ruch bane who reall_%, jusE wants 12 Eo fill in just a small area there for a F_i~chen, if I'm not mista]~_en. 13 Hr. Samuels, how are you this inerning? HR. SAHUELS: Very geed_ And you' re 14 mistaken ~ha~ is exa.2E1y ute point of the project and that is uo ir~ fill 21 square fooU open DuE lb covered porch and include i~ in ~he kitchen area of ute house, and would ne~ increase the 16 noz~conformiEy with regards te the seEbacF_ from ~he property line because Ehere is a fully enclosed 17 kit:chon, which is ~han same seuback from ~he side yard, and we will net be increasing the footprint, 18 jns~ enclosing an open porch. ,2HAIRNOHRN OLIVA: [,Irs. Tortora? 1~ BOARD P, IE~.~BER TOP_TOP~: No. CHAIRWOt{~2[ OLIVA: Jim? 20 BOARD N~IE±~BER DINiZIO: No quesUi.sns. CHAI RWO?&~.N OLIVA: Jerry? 21 BOAP.D ME['4BEP. GOEHRINGEP.: I just wanted mezztien two ~hings, ~he exact square footage of 22 EP~a~ is how much? MR. SYP[UELS: 21,. 3' bi~ 7' . 23 BOAiD P~ENBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. I j usu ha~.~e te wriEe Ehis one. 24 NR. S~2dUELS: (Handing cards _ ) BOARD MEN{BER GOEHRINGEP.: This is a 2~ one- sUory surucuure? NR. S2~{UELS: Correce. Jul5- lb, 200~ 1 2 BOARD MEHBER GOEHRINGER: The seEDack aE tnah point is what is depicEed on your siEe plan 3 is 45'10"? MR_ S~UELS: That's correct_ 4. BO~D I~EHB~R GOEHP_ING~R: Thank CHAIRWOH}2,I OLIVA: Is there anE~ody else 5 i~ the audience that wishes to speak for or against this applicaEien? If neE, I'll make a 6 motion Eo close the hearing and reserve ~ecision u~til later. ? ~See minutes for resolution.) 8 CHAIRWOP~ OLIVA: Our nexE hearing is for the Lefranes, who are on Lupen Drive, ~hah wish he ~ put a new garage, lleW fron~ seeps all~ a co?ered porch proposed wiEhin the nonconforming ~0 fooE 10 front var~ area. Is there an¥'bo~/ t~ere to speak t© this applicatio~? ~1 MR_ WSST: Good morning, Dan WesE, and I'm be representing Lenny and Lucille L%~frano. 12 They are requesting a variance ef and-a-half feet, and the survey they're 13 encroaching two and-a half feet with their garage_ We're ~eeping the fronE line ef Eke house the 14 same, but due to Ehe %0 foot so,back, ~he~'re going ~o be 37.2 feet now. 15 CHAINWC, H~,I OLIVA: Which is rather small_ You have thaE whole lon going around Lupen Drive? 16 HR_ WEST: Right, it's a corner lot_ The reason for doing all this they have a handicapped 17 broEher, he's going to evenEually be li,..ing wit~ ERem. The house hasn't Dean touched for I guess 18 seven years. We're going to be upgrading it substantially. We tried to pus~ on5 the frenn, 17 which we're allowed to, but the frans, in order gun a handicapped ramp and a few nhings like theE, 20 we needed Ehis small ,zariance. CHAIRWOMAN OLI!ZA: So the new fron~ seeps 21 is going to be a ramp plus steps? MR_ WEST: IE's going to be a ramp, 22 correcE, and it's going to be hidden from the fronn sEreen, and ~.hat's w~ere I'm encroaching. 23 Then we're going straigh~ in ~he front to increase the garage. 24 CHAIRWO[~tm2{ OLIVA: Jim? BORP. D MEMB5:R DINIZIO: · have no i!5 q~estions. CE~IRWONL~i,I OhlVA: LyOia? Jerry? July 15 200-~ 9 1 2 B,__~.~_D MEMBER Gu, EHRIN,JER: There's no change in the heighE of the structure, anything 3 Ehat's being consuructed as one story? MR_ WEST: It's a two sEor_%, construcEion 4 new, i think i have some skeEches_ They're going to de another Ewe~sEery, and it's going te be all 5 redone. There's actually -- they have two rotEen walls right new, the siding is bad. They're going 6 uo re do quiLe a bit of work_ 8C,ARD HEHBER ,~,~EHRIN~ER~ I~ s a ~otal 7 renovation of the house? MR. PTEST: Yes. 8 BOi~D HEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you. HR. WEST: Mostly dk~a to handicapped, you 9 ha~,~e to have wider doers and bathrooms accessible, and then their upstairs is going to be for all Ehe 10 ether people to live in. BOAP.D MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you_ 11 CHeI RWO[¥ba_N 0 L I VA: Li'di a ? BOARD HEHBER TORTONA: I have no 12 ~ues ~ions. CHA I P_WO['~I_~2[ OLiVA: Jerry? 13 BOAPD M~MB~R GOEHRINGER: No. CHAIRNOP,'L~2~ OLIVA: Is there an_%,body else 14 in ~he audience ~ha~ wishes to speak for or agains~ ~his applicatier~? If no~, I'll make a lB motion Eo close ~e hearing and reserve decision un,il la,er. 16 iSee mi~u~es for reseiutien.~ ~HAIRN~,~A2~ OLIVA: Nex~ hearing is Thomas and Laura Nigro oR Fishers island. I have a lot 18 of questions. We have problems with no pre COs for a leu of these things. 19 MS_ NIGRO: We are the new owners, the 20 CHAIRWO?4I~.[ OLIV}_: I undersEand Eha~. MS. NIGRO: So i have only the knowledge 21 chat people ~ell me, a~d I have te tell you, i'm ns~ exactly clear on nhe history. It's ~ err 22 diffic~lt for me to ascerEain_ But the previous owner just never bothered to cle~ ~he certificate 23 ,of ecc~lpancy, which is something Eha~ my husband and I as new owners feel is critically imperuant, 24 so we are ~aking or~ all ~he seeps we need no do to gee there, this being Ehe first. '2~ Hy understanding from bc.~h ~he realtor a~d Ehe surrounding neighbors is ~ha~ the deck July iS, 2,[i,,0% 1 2 built long ago pre nba zoning change, !~et they never bothered Eo go arid have Eke prope~ -- 3 ,2~_IRWC,MYl.~ OLiVA: - pre COs. HS. I'[IGRO: Right. So, that's where % starE, wi~h this %pplicaEion process. CHAIR~OMAN OLIVA: You're going to have ~ go and gee the building plans for all the ~hings you need pre-COs for alld ge to ~he Builting 6 Department, get those okayed before we can grant anfthing for you. ~,. f, IS. NIGRO: On the deck? ,2HA I RWOM.~2¢ OhiVA: Yes_ 8 MS. NIGRO: Okay, explain that again, because this v,~eu£d be new information for me_ I 9 called the Building Department, I spoke wit~ qui~e a few people, and my understanding Ehere are two lC, building permits that are outstanding. The deck ~haE i'm talking about here is not eno of them. 11 But that we needed an architect for eno of ~he other ouesEanding ones, which we have a contract 12 for and we're waiting for them te come suE, but tha~ was separate from doing this small deck, 13 wP~ich is on the cottage. There's two building s~rnctures on the property. There's the main 1% hsuse, the opened certificates are for construction en the main house. 'Phis is a small, 15 cne bedroom cottage. It's no~ eYen a cottage, it's a year-round residence. I~ is rented Ec, an 16 eh-island resident who liyes there izear-reund and that's what I was cemillg today he speak to. 2zm~d 17 when I spoke with the Building ~epartment, my nndersEaniing was agai~ that the construction en 18 ~his small co~tage, thins deck was done pre the zoning change. My understanding again was than 19 because the cottage or the small dne bedroom house sits in front of the main house that's where the 20 5ariance came from. You couldn't do a oonstruction on a building that sat in she front, 21 iE coktld onlf be in the back of the property_ BOARD SECY KONALS~iI: [,'Irs. Nigro, I spoke 22 with the Building Departmen~ representative yesterdal,- and it was mentioned that the pricr 23 owner was neu able to get a pre-CO because when Ehey went and did ±nspecEions, ~hey found ttlau 24 there was major renovations done to the cottage with.suE permits. You may wane Eo look into than. 25 HS. NIGRC,: The cottage itself? BOxRD SECY KONALSKi: The cottage_ July 1~, 2004 ll 1 2 MS_ NIGRO: There's been no work done on the cottage_ 3 BOARD SECY KO~fALSKI: How long have ~-ou owned %he cottage? 4 MS. NIGRO: Since November. Major renovations have been done on the main house, bun 5 not the cottage. The cottage is in desperate need of repair. 6 BOARD SECY KO~ALSKI: Within the last 20 years or so. 7 MS. NIGRO: When i look at the hisEorl' that I have here, all of the outstanding 8 alterations were all done on the main house nee on the cottage. 9 BOARD SECY KO~4ALSKi: You may want to gee a letter from the Building DeparLment er something 10 te sa5 that the use of the cottage does net require a variance because the way the disapproval 11 is written it's net only fez' the dec~, they're also sayi~g the cottage. 12 MS_ NIGRO: You have a letter from the Building Department? 13 BOr~D SECY KC,%~ALSKI: You have it Eeo. It's the same letter of disapproval. 1.t MS. NIGRO: I'm happy to do what I have to do. I called the Building Bepartment when I 15 received the letter Oecause I got quite frightened, I thought, oh, m!' Ged I've really 16 gotten a problem. When I spoke with him he assured me, no, don't read it that way, I think 1'7 you should ~e fine, you should be fine ~hen !-o'u go to the hearing, net fine in that it weul{ be 18 hays to go ~hrough the motions, but fine in that I did not need to de anyZhing mere. 19 BOARD SECY KO~[ALSKI: Who told you that in the Building Department? 20 ~4S. NIGRO: Jim -- was it Jim? -- I can't remember, whomever had sene me the letter, which I 21 don't think I ha~ breughL with me_ The original rejecEien letter which we had spoke about, an.t he 22 said part ef that rejection was standar~ and that's when he explaine~ to me where the 23 construction had been. C~[~IRWO~P~N OLiVA: why don't yen go over 24 Lo Eno Building Departmen: now, we ceul~ just adjourn this and come back_ See if you can get 25 straightened out. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Nigro, ouly 15, 2004 12 1 2 know where that is? CHAIRWOM~2{ ,DLIVA: it's in the annex now_ 3 BOARD SECY KOWALSRI: if yon're not able t,s get something in writing, ma,be somebody at the 4 Building Department can come back a~ 1:00. We would reoonvene. 5 HS. NIGRO: Is there an,,,thing else other than geE~ing uhat clarification? J BOi~t~_D SECY KOWALS~li: The Board doesn't usually grant variances for the deck when there's 7 no COs or pre-COs for ~he building; ~hat has te be cleared up first. 8 NS. NIGRO: I tried to do a pre-CO as well, and I ~hink this might be why partly the 9 pres ious owner who -- not ~o give you the whole history buu -- originally before we were goi~ug 10 bu~ ~he house one of the conditions was that he go and get all this cleaned up, and honestly he 11 just -- BOARD SECY KONALSKI: You bought it 12 without any appreva£s? MS. NIGRO: Yes_ Under the auspices that 13 we would ge uhrough this. AnO i'm fine with nhaE because I'm committed to gettinc1 it accomplished, 1% bu~ I tried to get the pre-CO and I spoke wi~h -- I ean't remember his name either on the island - 15 and they did not recommend a pre-CO. 1t~=_~ said ~-c.u should just gnu the deck set~led and gee the 16 architect for the main house. But I'll go back ever to the Building Department, that's all I ,gan 17 do, and see if i can get someone to come or get something in writing. 18 CPh%IRWOI{~N OLIVA: P~ake a motion reconvene this hearing at 1:00 p.m. 19 {~=~ minutes for resoluticn. 20 CHr~_IRWOI,,i~2,I OLIVA: The nex~ hearing ihs for Leonard Bpifano and Patricia Rvan at Waeer's Edge 21 Nas. and ,Bin Lane, Souuhold. They wish to expand the house a bit and bring it up, to daEe, so te 22 speak_ MS_ RY/-~?: It was m~~ mom's home and she 23 had died last year, and we now live in a ewe-story house and getting on in years, it's non ~haE mueh 24 fun anymore. So from the estate we bought the heuse, and it really needs Es be comple~el2 25 redone, it was built in 19S6 and it's on a corner lot. It's a beautiful place. Fhe only thing is July 15, 2004 13 1 2 when they built the house, the-_.,- built it on a diagor~ai. So for us to come back we cema closer 3 n,o ,~,n Lane, I nhir~k it's 29.8. Ne have two front '~ards. Plo're shill over 40 from the front, so 4 ~hat's no problem, it's just the side on ,Sin halle. 5 CHAI RWO~L~2~ OL± ~_~. Jim? BOARD MEHBBR DINIZIO: No, I have no 6 objection to ~his. In looks like you're punning on a lintle bin of a porch on the Water's Edge H$. RYAN: It's just a covered walk. 8 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: So !?ou can get inns the house? 9 PIS. RY_~2,I: Wihhout gerbing soaked, fou gob in. 10 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Thah's an adOition nc whau's nhere alread?? You're well wizl~in 11 limits uhere, hhat's still 42. The only prebiem is than 5ou have that side yard setback, okav. 12 CHA I RWOH?'~2[ OLIVA: Lydia? BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: I have no 13 quesuiens. C PL3~ I RWONL~2~ OLIVA: 2erry? 14 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No qnlestions and no cbjecnions. lb ~ttAIRWOMAN CLIffS: I don'n either, se make a motion no close the hearing and reserve 16 decisicn unnil later, unless anybody else wants to speak. 17 ,See minutes for resolution_ ~ CPL~IRWOI~Z:2,? OLIVA: Take a break. 18 ~ Short recess) 19 ,2HAIRWOI'~AN OLIVA: I'd like no recon~ene our meaning. 2,3 Our nexn hearing is for Carnesi who wishes ~e amend his noncenformzng accessory building and 21 remove iE winh a new replace building. This is on Cedar Beach Road in Sou~[leld. 22 MR_ SP~i',IIIELS: T~aE's overstating in litEle bit_ Actually we intended te save as nluch 23 of that building as possible, including the foundation and as much framing. Truli2 it has 24 teterioraned to nhe point where a full replacement ,.~,~eui~ be in order, but the in~ennien was 25 criginally for the Building Departmene non to ~ha~ for the very reason we wanted to avoid ~he Jul,_,, lb, 2004 14 1 2 .ariance hearin.~l, and we thought we could jusu renovate it, maximally renovate it, but basicalll,- 3 leave as much as we can in order to avcicl a hearing. But obviously we couldn't manage to do 4 uhat, so I would say we're trying ~o make i~ useable again. It's barely useable a~ Ehe momenu. 5 There's no garage on the property, sUorage is limi5ed, it's nenhabiuable use, there may be some 6 workshop use in Lhere, residential but clearly not habitable use. 7 ,~H:~IRWuM.eN uLI.A~.: So you really jusu want it for storage, garden roam and half a bath, 8 ~oileE and sink? [,'IR. S.~_HUEL~:, Correct. It was I believe 9 used as a collage in the pasn, but has nothing to do wi~h the current owner or what his inuenuions 1,3 are. CHAIRWOMAN OLZVA: We already gave relief 11 fcr uhe perch i believe_ MR_ SAi4UELS: For that house. 12 CHAI RWC,P~%_N OLIVA: Jim? BOARD MEHSER E, INIZIO: i have nonhiRg. 13 CHAI RWOi,ZA_N C,L IVA: Lydia? BOARD HEHBER TORTOPA: Just a couple to 14 get nhe basics down. On the sine plan, it shows the accessory au ~ ~- is that what we should use? 15 [,IR_ S~P~UELS: 2_6 is wha~ the survey says. So if my size plan says 2.2 thau's not in 16 agreement with the survey i have, at ieasZ here in frcnE of me, which is the Stan isaacson's survey. 17 BOARD MEHBER TORTOP~: Sc. I should go 2.6? MR Si-2,gUELS: 2.6 is the closesz ,lerner at 18 uhe existing screened porch. BOARD HEHBER TORTOP~: .hi~i the exact 19 setback you would be requesting is the front yard? MR_ S~PIUEL$: The fren~ yard closest by 20 the survey is 39.1. ~P_RD MEHBER 'FORTOPcl_: Tha~ s all. 21 CHAi RWOPLAI[ OL ilL~: Jerry? BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What is the 22 exact distance to the dirt road, which is the acuuai right of way; do you have any idea what 23 EhaE is? MR_ S~14UELS: The right ef way is 2,2, feet 24 wide so the remainder te the edge of that legal righu of way ms 19.1 fee~ te the edge of the right 25 ef way, closest. The drive according to the survey is net actuallx:~ in the right ef wa`~ July iS, 2'304 2 entirely, i~ kind ef wanders_ So actually the drive is closer ~e the co,rage er the garage, bu~ 3 ~he legal right of way is 20 feet wide. BOARD HBMBER GOEHRINGER: Would you say % it's about t0 feet, it's abou~ half that? MR. SAMUELS: Maybe 12. I'm sorry I don't 5 have my'scale with me, it's abou~ 12 feet. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is going ~o 6 remain as a one stors,? MR. SAMUELS: Correct_ 7 BOARD ~EPBER GOEHRINGER: }~d the Chairperson said we are ~alking about one half 8 ba~h? MR_ S~i~UELS: Correct. ~ BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No heat? HR_ S~IUELS: Ne hea~. 10 C~IlRWO±'{~N OLIVA: Is mhere anybody else in ~he audience who wishes to speak on ~his 11 hearing? If not, I'll make a memion closing uhe hearing and reserving decision until la,er. 12 (See minu~es for resolution.) 13 CHAIRWO~ OLIVA: Next hearing is do~n HcFeely far an as-buile deck censurucEien en 1~ Peconic Bay Boule~ard in Laurel. Is ~here anybody here he address this application? Sly members 15 have any questions aOou~ it? BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There are no 16 represeneatives? CHAIRWOH~{ OLIVA: No. i spoke he the 17 gentleman yes~er~ay_ He said ne would be here. I EelO him eo be here in case there are any 18 questions. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm not grilling 19 you, Ou~ was he aware of the time that the hearing was? 20 CHAIRWOHAN OLIVA: I would assume he 21 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: He go~ a letter, right? 22 BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: He did the notices and put the sign up. 23 CHAIRWOM~{ 0¼IVA: Do ~ou want to know if he got involveO, he and his brother-in-law? 2~ BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: I spoke ~o him yesterday. He planned en being here_ 25 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Do you wan~ to nolo off until lunch time? July 15, 200~ 16 1 2 CHAIRWO~.~2~ OLIVA: Yes. Adjourn the hearing until 11:55. All in favor? 3 ~See resolution for minu~es.~ % CE%IRWOP~N OLIVA: Next eno is for Graham Head on Geese Creek Lane_ Yes, sir_ 5 ~,'P~. O©RI~I: Hi, I'm Dill German on behalf of Graham and Barbara Head_ We are asking for a 6 side line ~?ariaRce_ We want to build a second floor on a garage. Tha~ garage is a little ever 7 t~ree feel from the side line_ T~e last hearing, one ef 5he neighbors, Paul Naleney asked that i% 8 be adjourned un,il today because he wasn't in ~own. Since then I have meu wi5h him. He wroUe a 9 le~er that indicates that after speaking with Hr.' Head he's agreed to a ceupie of changes, which 10 are t~e removal of some win~ows uhat leek over in5e his Dackyard, and other than the5 he has no 11 objections. Would you like a copy? CMAIRWOM~{ OLIVA: I have ~he letter. I 12 read it this morning. Jim? BOARD NIEHBER DINIZIO: · was a little 13 concerned aDeuL actually 5he notice of disapproval, uhat just wasn'5 clear to me what 14 you're being rejected for. The 3.2 feet is airea~y 5here. I~ already exisEed, an~ I don'5 1S see where you're doing any SullYing thee would increase Lhe nonconformity. So I guess ~'m all 16 for i~ if the neighbors are for it. I don'~ see any reason why you sheuldn'5 have it, b~ I'd like 17 5o hear other people before I commen%. CE~IRWOI,~ 0LI¥~: Lydia? 18 BOARD MEMBER TORTO~%: The area that's going to contain the addition, 5na%'s the 19 one-story a~dition? HR. GORMi~2{: The new footprint is the 2,3 one story addition_ CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Accer{ing to the survey 21 it says propese~ two-story addition? PiR. GORH.~{: The new addition is a 22 cne-snery addiEien that connecEs the existing house Eo the exisEing garage. The ~wo-ssory 23 a{{iEion is on 5op of t~e existing garage. BO~RD MEMBER DINiZIO: I guess ~nat's why 24 i wane Ee the notice of Oisapproval. Lately this would have been disappro~zed for something else 25 other ~nan citing this 100-30A, which to my mind is new construction. What 30A says to us, here's Juli 15, 200% 17 2 the size lot you have and there are certain things you can'~ do, and if you do that you can'~ use 3 them unless you get a variance, that's what that says to me. But the second s~orv on the garage, % as I understand it, would be covered under the Walz decision_ 5 CHAIRWOM!~ OLIVA: Right. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That's not here in 6 the no,ice of disapproval. So I'm concerned about us making the decision based on 100-30A, I don't 7 ~hink applies to this applican~ in this instance. Because ~o my mind he's net creating, he's not 8 building any new nonconformity other than ~he Walz decision, you know hew i feel about it_ i have te 9 write this decision; I think i can'~ write it based on chis notice of disapproval. 10 BOARD MEMBER TORTO~A: It clearly refers te uhe bulk schedule, and the bulk schedule does 11 not specify in any wai- whether it's additions or new. There's nothing in the bulk schedule that 12 limits i~ ~o existing structures. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No. Bu~ in our 13 cote, if any of this happens, if you have new constr~c~iom that's in nonconformity, then that's 14 fine, ~hen you can't do EhaE according to 1,00-30. l~r~ is an existing nonconformity on this 15 proper~y that is apparent to me in ~he last sentence, that is the reason why ~hey're here 16 because it's 3.2 feet away from the property line. That's an existing nonconformity. Our code 17 covers ~ha~ ~ha~'s 100-42A, 200-42A, whatever it is. To deny them based en this, I den'~ think 18 he's putting that little construction in the middle, nhen he's increasing the nonconformity. 19 BOAP_D SECY KOWALSKI: There's also someuhing else factual that is noU menuioned_ The 20 garage is detached. BOARD MEMBBR DINIZIO: Yes, I couldn'u 21 agree wiEh you more. Then attaching it uhen makes it a principal seructure_ That's a whole ocher 22 ball of wax that is not covered by I ~hink 100-30A. 23 BOARD SECY KONALSRI: They probably didn't address in because it was going from an aocessory 24 building ~o ~he principal; they applied the whole hulk schedule to iE instead. 25 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGBR: I think the question I need to ask ~he contractor, are July 15, 2004 18 1 2 actually destroying ute garage or are you putting the second stor!/ on? 3 MR. GOR~,Z&N: Just ad~ing on top of ~t. BOARD i,IE~',IBER GO~HRINGER: You have an 4 engineer's permit ~hat will allow you to do Lhat? f,~R. GORM~I: Yes. 5 BOO=U~D MEHBER GOEHP_INGER: Therefore, the garage has the proper foundation and strength 6 cio ~hat? HR. GORPI}2~: That's correct, and if need 7 be, we'li reenforce iu. BO}i%D MENFBER TORTORA: N~en was the garage 8 buil~? MR. GORI~2~: I'ln not cerLain when it was ~ built. I think it was just framed in ~ne '40s or ' E0s . 10 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: It's old- BOARD HEHBER TORTORA: Tt~en the garage was 11 a ~euacl]ed accessory garage with a three foou side yard, correcu? 12 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Righu. BO_~RD MEMBER TORTOPsA: Now it's part of 13 the principal dwe£iing, therein is the difference_ I don't have an~~ questions. 14 CMAIRWOH.A2~ OLIVA: So the garage is now going to Se auuached to the house? 15 BO.AiD HEHBER GOEHRINGER: Right. BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: IL is. 16 CPL~IRWO],~eN OLIVA: Is the garage going be auEac~e~ to the house? 17 MR. GORN%~-2[: IU will be autache~ to the hcuse with the breezeway. 18 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: An enclosed treezewav? 19 MR. ,30P2~IAN: A~solutelv. BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: See what's happened 20 is 100 2%2A of the code sa-,s when you increase Eha~ nonconformity with a substantial new area, it 21 requires an additional review by the Zoning Board, mhd the Building Department didn't include thau in 22 the disapproval. Se wnaE · woul~ recommend is that it be adjourned until i~ can be technically 23 correcmed for ul~e record. BO~D MEHBER GOEHRINGER: Do you need 24 read~er~ize ~ha~ one? BOAP.D SECY KONALSP.I: S~ould be 25 read,-ertized and renotice{ and adjourned until August 19th_ The Building Department can add tha~ July~ 15, 19 1 2 to their disapproval and we can fill in iitnle infect in the paperwork ~HAIRNOIh~N OLiVA: JusE to make :~ou legal. Se if further down the road, somebody 4 doesn'E have a question about i~. Tha~ you have all Ehe proper papers. B Bn,~ND I~IE~IBER DiNiZiO: PP,' concern is you get the approval, ,:eu go Ehere and stare doing it 6 and ~ou start and then 2ou're back here again be2ause another building inspector. I can tell 7 :~ou that the legal notice makes reference to new additions aE less than 15 feet from the minimum 8 single side yard seEback but Ehat new addition is not 15 feet. 9 BOARD SECY KO~JALSKI It says ~ is less Ehan 15 feet. 10 BOARD HEHBER DINIZIO: Say again? CHAIRWOHA2[ OLIVA: It recfuires 15 fete but 11 5he new atdiEion single side yard setback of 3_2 fete. 12 P3.ARD MEMBER DINIZIO: ThaL's non the new addition, that's exisEing nonconforming. 13 BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: The new addition is on ~he secend fleer, Jim. 14 HR. GORHAi,I: There is a new addition on Eop. IE sounds to me as if iE's 15 BOA~_D SECY KOWALSKI: IE's less than 15 fetE? 1,f MR_ GOR[,ZAII: Yes, i5 is. Fhat's where Ehe new addiEion is 9oing. If the garage weren't 17 there and we jusE pun Ehe breezeway on it, we wouldn't have the 15 foot issue. The 15 leon 18 issue is because we're adding on top of the nenconforming. 19 BOf~P.D SECY KOWALSKI: Technically Eke garage is in the side yard so you'd be denied for 2,0 something else by ~he Building DeparEmen~_ BOARD M~HBER DINiZIO: Ronestl/, this 21 whole thing Ooes not make any sense to me. Nhy isn't Naiz referenced and why isn't 242? The£~ i'm 22 looking aE, if you're saying to me that a new addition on Eep of an existing seEback EhaE 23 toesn't make an,,- sense to me eiuher, unless you' re going Eo have Walz referenced. 24 C ~L~i- I RW O ?~hK2,[ OLIVA: Jerry. BOARD HEP[BER GOEHRINGER: if it can be 2S cleaned up today withou~ it being readvertize.i. BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: I have no ,objection Jui~' iS, 2,1,,04 2O 1 2 Eo nhe was in is. if ute Board wanes Eo close it and make a decision the way in is, ± ha~e ne 3 objection. ~dR. G,Z, RM}2{: We have no objection. ~ C~%IP~OP~.N OLIVA: I'm sure you don't_ BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Jim, i 5 understand where you're coming from. BOAN~ HEMBBR TORTO?~: it's over a 6 ~echnicaliEy that I think is it's nee going Eo change anything as far as you're concerned except / to delay -~ou another month and I don't see any point to t~at_ 8 CHAIRWC,N~i~ OLIVA: I'll make a motion to close ~he hearing and reserve decision until 9 later. ~.See minutes for resolntion_~ CHAIPWONL~/,I 0LIVA: Next hearing is RoOert 11 Leighton who wishes ~e de the pool and do some s~her improvements en the house. Canny }[esiano is 12 here represenning him. We just to want Eo say in the outset, 13 according no the site plan, the accessorg building is Eo Se moved, then you diO not notice tha~ in 14 ~'our application, se then you'll have Ec come back to us for a side yarO or variance where ute shed's 15 going to be. BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: I left a message en 16 2our machine yesterday. The Board's not going Eo be able Eo approve the location of the shed. 17 MS. MESI~i~O: I gee home late last night and left earl~~. I never pushed the button. 18 BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: You'll have Eo reappiv_ it's ~een Oenied by the Building 19 E, epsrtment, it has ~e be 35 fee~ from Ehe front line eno it's less than that now_ You can't gc 20 an-- closer. HS. HESI2~,~O: That's right. Well, we can 21 procee~ ant clean that up. ,2HAiRWOPRN OLIVA: Proceed. 22 MS. MESIi~i[O: My name is Canherine ~4esiane, I'm appearing en behalf of Hr. Leighton, 23 the o~x~er of the property. The suOject sine is a .6b acre wmEerfront 24 io~ located aE the north side cf Rochelle Place in Hantituck. The property is zoned R40. Subject 25 premises is a two family dwelling. There's a certificate of occupancy Z10360 dated January 26, Jul~ 15, 200~ 21 1 2 1981 stating as such. Mr. Leighton proposes to raise the ridge of the existing ewelling to bring 3 the second story ceiling height into confermit~T an~ aid a one car garage, in ground pooi, fence, · ~ deck and porch_ The existing 6.5 feet side setback and 68.9 feet setback to the bulkhead will 5 ~e mainuaine~. I haze presented the Board with a set of construction plans, I haze tried to 6 illustrate the fact that there will be no greater encroachmen~ to the required yards, in the / ±ns~ance of the side yard, the six and a half feet is the nearest paine of the existin8 structure to 8 the side y%r~_ There is a second story on the hause. The second story is not aE the height that 9 the new second story will be. The area that is impacteO Dy the nonconformity of the setback 10 amounus to approximately 75 square feet. There's a triang~lar area, and 1'il gi;e my little sketch 11 to the Board, and I've highlighted these areas_ And further with respect to ERe setback from the 12 bluff -- excuse me, from the Dulkhead, we are nee Froposing any additions te come any closer than 13 the propose~ concrete patio and dec~ that presently exists_ 1% I de have a letter from a neighbor, and i Know a letter was submitued te the Boar{. You did 15 get that, se I'd like to have these Ewe letters, uhev're positive letters that have been written by 16 neighSors in support of the application. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I say 17 something, Ma~am Chairman? CMAIR~OP~2,~ OLIVA: Yes. 18 BOARD MEMBER GOEMRINGER: You started out, Hrs. Mesiane, bi, saying this was a two-family, you 19 meant to say 5wo-stery? RS. ~{ESIANO: No. IL is a legal 20 two-family s~ructure, two-story. CHAiRWO±'~L~N C, LIVA: You have a ,20 for that? 21 ~{S_ MESIS2~O: Yes. The CO is in the package that I gave you. 22 BOARD MEMBER GOEMRINGER: Can I continue? C½AI RWOHDi70LII/A: Yes. 23 BOARD MENIBER GOEHRINGER: Is there any particular reason why the pool can't be turned 2% around and run in the north south direction as opposed to t~e east west direction? 25 HR. hEiGHTON: Not as far as i'm 2encerned. I would have preferred it that v~ay. Jul~ 15, 200~ 22 1 2 BOARD MEMEER .gOtt{RINGER: The visuai inspection for this premise shows an exnremelv 3 cluttered side yard area, and I would not be in fa,~or of further clutter in the side yart area % because ~ha~ side in ~he ul~i~a~e side ~ha~ would be used for ~wo particular reasons_ Anything tc 5 be gained toward ~he waterfront that needed ~o be ~orked on, and number 2 from a fire and emergency 6 point of view_ ~nd ~kat's my opinion. NS. MESIAi~O: 0kay. Hr. Leighton 7 obviously has no problem with that so we can reconfigure Ghat. 8 ,~H~_I RW,OM.~N OLIVA: Lydia ? B.DARD MEI~[BER TORTORJe: Not at this Lime. 9 2HAI RWC, I~%At~ OLIVA: Jim? BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Ne. ic, u'il submi~ 10 a revise~ map with tha~? MS. HESiS2~O: Yes. 11 BOA~ MEMBER DINIZIO: I have nothing else. 12 CHAIRWOHY2~ OLIVA: I have nothing else. I was mhere. 13 HS. lqEsI~Nu: So ~hen i just need ~c. ~resen5 you wish a revised plan showing ~he pool 14 running _ eH~_IRNOItm2[ OLIVA: Then you will have to 15 come back for the shed. MS. MESiY2{O: For the shed. So I have 5o 16 go back ~o the Building Departmen5 and nave them 5o do a disapproval on 5hat. 17 CHAIRWOH~iJ OLIVA: Right. Is there au~bed5 in 5he audience Ehat wishes te speak for 18 sr agains~ ~his application? If net, i make a mo~ien closing 5he hearing and reserving decision 19 until la5er. {See minuses for resolusion? 20 MS. MESIAi}O: Nhen we ge~ ~ha~ reyision from the Building Department, to I have ~e do a 21 new notice? BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: No~ for the pool, 22 jus5 submiE 5he seven revised plans 5o our office ~he Friday before the next meeting. 23 NS. [,IEsI~I~O: Bu~ wi~h respect to the shed? 24 BOARD SECY K,DWALSKI: The shed 5ou ~.~ould have ~o reapply and star5 over. It would delay 25 5his ~recess. We would have 5o adjourn i5 for a o~Eh m July 15, 200% 23 1 CHAIRWONL'~s2,~ OLI~A: The nexE hearing is for 3 dohR and Martha Watts down on Harbor P_i;er Road in C.rienE. They wish te make some adjusEmen~s te the 4 house. Miss Steelman_ MS_ STEELHAN: Hi, my name is Nancy b S~eeim~n, Samuels and Steelman Architects. I unink this ~pplication is fairly 6 sE~aightforward. We're filling in between Ewe existing wings of the house that are currentll 7 encrcaching on the front yard setback and also en the side i~ard. And we'd like Ee add a new enEry 8 'porch and deck. So does anyone have any questions that I ~ can answer? CPLAIRWOM!~2{ OLIVA: Jerr-? i0 BOARD MEMBER GOEMRINGER: I looked a~ the house, },Is. S~eelman, and I cti~n't have any 11 particular quesEions at the time ef m/ ph]-sicai inspecEion o~her Ehan the fact that I thoughn 12 the house was farther away from Ehe preper~v line than it appears to be on ~he survey er your site 13 plan. So I guess the concern is Eh~aE ERe censtrueEien is noE on Ehat side ef the house, so 14 Ehat really there's no worry to deal wi~h it in EhaE aspect It's on the opposite side of the lb house, is it not, meaning where the actual line is? We're talking proposed raised deck and 16 wood stoop. MS. STEELHAN: Correct. On the sEree~ 17 side. Yes, EI~aE'S the one we're concerned a~out. EveryEning else is within the seEback. t8 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: RighE. HS. STEELMAN: So it's just EhaE front 19 area. I .san only assume that the survey is correcE. This is what we had gsEEen as a 20 preexisting survey. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: On that basis, I 21 guess I ,..~'ill nee grill you anI about anyEhing. NS. STEELH_~2~: Seems pretty 22 straighEforwari to me.. CHAI RWOI:IAI'I OLIVA: Lydia? 23 8Or-iD HEMBER TORTOP3_: No questions_ C ½_-i i RWO ~,tNiq OLIVA: Jim? 24 B,S,ARD MEHBER DINIZIO: No. ,2HAIRWOi~N OLIVA: Is ~here anybody in 2~ audience who wishes Eo speak to Ehis application? if not, I'1i make a motion closing the hearing and July lg, 200% 24 1 2 reserving decision unuil later. ,See minutes for reseintion_ i 3 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Our next application is for Peggy Atkinson on Sound Avenue, Peconzc. For % an as buil~ deck. MS. ATKINSON: Good morning, coult you 5 answer a quesEion for me, Ruth, wha~ does "as-builu" mean? 6 CHAIRWOMAN OLiVA: You put it in without a permiu. 7 NS_ ATKiNSOi'I: I though~ ~haE's wha~ meanE but I wasn't sure. What I'd like Es start 8 is to tell you how this construction came ab,ou~ ani hew it happened to gez built before permiEs 9 and zonir~g variances were invoizred. My husband had for the pasE 20 years has been patching and 10 fixing this deck, which is over %0 some-odd years in axis:once, and it had geEzen Eo the poinz where 11 the underpinnings were rotzing away, and it was more ~han he could pa~ch anymore, i~ was 12 definitely something where we had to tackle the underneaEh and that was our plan last fail. We 13 seii than we're going ze have to de major rec,snstruc~ion of the underpinnings of the deck. 14 Ani this January my husband passed awai?, you ma2 h_~ve seen the nezmce Don Azkinsen. And I zried 15 ,~er/ hard in ~he sprzng to fulfill one of Ehings ~hat wa had planned - if I'm emotional in's 16 ~ecause i~'s so tied up winh him. ,2HAiRWO[~_N 0LIVA: Take your eime_ 17 MS_ ATKINSON: i set on~ in June to try and te this, and I assumed what i was doing was 18 replacing and repairing an existing deck thaE was dangerous. I ceuidn't lez people walk en in. The 1-c, underpinnings were actually falling down, and I interviewed several contractors and all ef :hem 2,2, said te ge~ ~o Ehe underneach, I'd have Es Eake off ~he ~op, and I became very aware Eha~'s the 21 kind of approach thaE I had to do to ~he deck. And i hired a young fellow who starEed the work, 22 and i was encouraged nhan he was going to do i: within a shore length of Lime because naE ha:ins 2! my husband's income anymore, ~he house has become a financial problem, and I was going ~o solve tha: 2& t?,~- renting ~he house as soon as I could. Now ~ha~ :he consEructien on the deck has been s~epped and 25 I ha, en'~ been able to rent i~ for Jul'., ~nd i~ doesn'~ look like I'm gozng to be able to ren~ i~ July 1~, 200& 25 2 far August, but maybe I can salvage two weeks or something out of August, if I can get it finished_ ~ if ,,-ou wane ~o the site, vou'll see Eha~ ~he deck is hullo, and it's built to code, and it's a 4 hundred times beEter than i~ was. We did not build it an inch mere than the previous feotprinu 5 that existed since 1967, and I ,}et a copy of the permit ef the bull.ling of nhe deck and ute 6 au,~on at the time. Do fou need that bs look s~? But at the time it was an approved building 7 of an addition of porch and deck, and iE snows exactly Ehe same deck ~hat's there now. The 8 picuure ~ha~ you have Xeroxed shows ute deck half buil~, and what I would like to do is pass around 9 the eolor photo of it because on the color photo ycu can see ute existing old pilings thau iu was 10 built on that i haven't chan.~ed. Wha~ ~he contractor did was sister those, rather than rip 11 ahem up, he sistered those with properly footed cemented posts. Can I pass this around? 12 CHA ~ RWOHAi.~ OLIVA: Sure. HS. ATKINSON: This is a picture of a 13 couple of years ago when ute deck was in shape. This is a picEure of it this fall when iu was 14 falling apart_ This is the cc. lor picture, the third picture is Ehe color picUure of the 1S undergrid with the gray poses Ehat are s~ill ~here showing that we did net build iu any further. I 16 am nee building iu an inch more Ehan where it was. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: The decking, is 17 ~ha~ new decking or is ~hat the original decking? PIS ..TKI~S_N That s what was rotting on 18 the old deck, literally falling away. And this is Ehe deck. Phe young fellow has dena a very gesd 19 job. BOARD MEMBER TORTOR~__ Has he compleEed ~n= deck? MS. ATKINSON: No, it's stopped. The 21 minute an inspector came over and said ,-ou need a permit_. 22 mH~-.IRI, C%a2 OLiVn- You need the stairs and -.ou need a railing. 23 BO_~_D MEMBER TORTORA: When did he puE a stop order? 24 i.iS. AfKiNSON: I believe iE was in June. C~_iRWOHAN CLIv_e: Looks nice. 25 HS. ATKINSON: I must apologize, it was m-' absoiu~e unawareness that that repairing and July IS, 2004 26 l 2 reconstructing something like El:is required a permiE. I assumed tha~ since i~ was a preexisting 3 sEruc~ure thaE i was doing repairs, and i did nc,~ need a permit. I have three leE~ers from the 4 neighbors that are involved, and they all have no sbjecuion. I'll submiE them ~o you. These are 5 neighbors who live on either side of ~he deck tha~ woL~id affecE the setback· Ail ,of wl~icl~ have decks 6 ~hemselves, and ~hese lees have ail nonconformities buile inEo Ehem. 7 ,CHAIR~'~Oi',IAN OLIVA: Thel have been ~here 8 MS. ATKINSON: Many years. Like I said Ehis house has had this deck on since i was child· S, It's got to be more than 40, 50 ~,,ears, but the deck as iu is now has been Lhere since 1967. 10 BOAi~.D HE[~IBER TORTORA: Hew long is i~ going to ~ake him Eo finish iE? 11 MS. ATKiNSON: Probably less uhan a week. BOARD HEHBER TORT,DPJ~_: Are you seill '12 trying to rent? MS_ ATKINSON: 'Ver5~ hard, buu iE's not 13 happening because people ~= a deck wiuh no sEairs, and it's jus~ nee finished_ Not only am ~ 14 asking for the variance Ehat this involves, I'm asking tha~ ~his migh~ be done as quickly as 15 possible se ~hat I could possibly rent ~he house for some pare c.f August· 16 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Is Ehere anyone in the audience EhaU wishes to commenE en this proposal? 17 i ,~on'~ see any. B,0~D HEHBER DINIZIO: Can i ask a 18 ~ues~isn? HS_ =~TKINsON: Sure_ 19 BOARD M~MS~R DINIZIO: Looks on the prcperti,- .card in 1991 ¥o~ get a building permil to 20 csnstrucE an addition to existing dwelling? [,IS. ATKINSON: No, nc.u on in 1991. Nha~ 21 you see there is m!? mother died and the Erust transferred the c. wnership of Eke house. ~ BOARD MEI',~BER DINiZiO: That's ~n ~. There's another one just before· 23 I-IS. ATKiNSON: Longo Trusn no At~inson. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Right up above 2% thee. MS. ATKENSON: Longo ~o Longo Trust, 25 that's anoEher trust from my mather to my brother· BOARD MEMBER DiNiZIO: Righ~ above that· July 15, 2004 27 1 2 April 17, 1~3,91, BP, eS built constructis, n of addition to existing dwelling. 3 CHAIRWOPL~t~ OLIVA: i see it, '98. BOARD MEMBER DINIZiO: No, it says '91. 4 PIS. ATk:INSON: it does say '9~, but the only abhor Ehing Ehat was dens to the house at ~he 5 time was a basemenu Ehat was done, and I believe uhat was earlier_ 6 BC,ARD MEMBER DINIZIO: ThaE's in here E 0 0 . 7 NS. ATKINSON: I'm sorry, 1991 a porch 'was enclosed in back of zhis deck. You're right, I 8 forgoz abouz zha~. BOARD MEMBER DINiZiO: ?hen '82 you had a 9 cellar put in. HS. .~_rKINS~,N. Exactly We had a 10 screened in porch that m,f ~other, who was alive at the Elms, she always feiE EhaE someone could ,some 11 in through theE, so we closed iE in. Ne had a prcper permit_ 12 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: BuE nhis permit, the first one says alZerations on dwelling, is 13 Eh~t the building permiz you got? NS. ATKINSON: Would you like to see ute 14 sne ~haE refers Ee the porch and the deck? BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Because uhere's no 15 daEe on Ehat_ MS. ATKINSON: Because it's so far back. 16 This is the permit thee I get from Ehem_ BOARD MEMBER DINIZIC,: Ne have a copy of 17 ~his, right? BO}i~_D ~Em~ KOWALSKI: i'm not sure. Just 18 in case we don'~. BOARD HEHBER DINiZIO: That is the 19 bnilding permit and Ehe CO for ute deck. BOARD MEPIBER TORTORA: This deck? 20 BOARD MEHBER DiNIZIO: That's what looks like. 21 NfS. ATKII.JSON: Yes. If you nouice the deck wraps around the whole house. It goes from 22 the front deck, a side walkway all the way te zhe deck that's en the waterfront 23 CHAIRWOM:~2ff OLIVA: Any other questions, Jim? 24 BOARD MEMBER DiNiZiO: No, I'm a liEtle confused Ehen why Ehey're here. WNa~ I would like 25 to see if we conld vote on ~his today. MS. ATKiNSON: Thank you. July 1S, 2004 28 1 2 CHAIRNOi,'~%N OI~IVA: I wcuid too. BOARD MEMBER TC, RTOP~: I would too. 3 BOARD MEMBER D~NIZIO: I'll be willing to wriEe the decision tonighu. 4 BOARD MEP~BER ,~O~HRI~ER: With the pre,~ision thet it remain open Ee Ehe sky. Jerrv. I~ s~,.~s ,~/innie on it. I'll do it tenighu_ .x BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: i'ii make a mo~ion ns appraise the application of Peggy Atkinson 7 Appeal Number 5564 as applied for wi~h ~he oondi~ior~ Ehat Ehe new deck remain open to the S s ky. ,2HAIRWC, H2~ uLIz.,: Second the motion. Ail 9 in favor? (See minuues for resoluuien.'~ 10 H=_IRNe. PL~2I OLIVA: Nex~ application is for 11 Genevieve HcGrath for some added construction on Pri,~ate Road %4 in Soe~held, very nice view. I'm 12 glad Ehe genEleman down on the weter has a nice turnarount driveway..~ ahead, Bruce. 13 NR. 2~2.]DERsdN: Bruce Sm~derson, Suffolk Environmental Consulting for,~n~.z~.~' .... - ~,~l~l~raun, 1% whs is here with us ~oday_ This is a very simple varianoe_ We have a 15 preexisuing nonconforming parcel consisting of ~,, ,4 square feet_ I~ s a lot create,~ as p~r~ ef 16 wh&E I call Ehe Daiy compound. I'm near and dear Ee ~his area because I grew up very close Eo it_ 17 A no,ice of disapproval was issued in November ef 2623 and Ehe variance requesEed is e relief 18 re~uested of a rear '~ard seEbaek of 3S feet. CHAIRNOPLAI~ OLIVA: Because you're on 19 frsn~ yards. NR. ANDERSON: And ute yard in quesuion is 20 actually a paper road known as Yawn Harbor Terrace. i~ leads te the Hippodrome, which is 21 enEireiy wetlands. The road isn'~ opened, will never be opened, and so this is jns~ a creature -- 22 ~his is really a technical application. The proposed porch EhaE is at issue here 23 measured 12 by 32.2 feeE. One sEory screened-in parch. IE acEuallv protrudes some ~1 s~uare 24 fee~, due ~e a porEion of it being recessed wiEhin the existing house. 2S Ne have ne neighborhood concerns. They're all family. The compound was created in 1917; J~ly 15, 2004 29 2 iE's been held that way since then and will be held EhaE way forever as far as I can tell_ There 3 are nc, en'rironmen~aI concerns. Ne had a very cas:' ~ime with both Ehe Trustees and Ehe DEC. Ail 4 s~her improvements are entirely complian~ with pour zoning code the,:' include a dormer, and entr!,, 5 ~.:e'= and an ouEdoor shower. There would be no undesirable changes te the neighborhood clearly_ 6 The benefits sought is qui~e simple beconase we :~?ant to place the porch facing souEh, which makes 7 sense that's what crea~es the relief that's needed. The relief is noY substantial .as it 8 ,~oesn't impinge on an-:-proper~y interest there. No environmental impect. And ob,~iously 9 Ehe variance created is not self-creanet because Ehe house is at 35 feeE from tha~ loE line se any 10 addition in that direction would require a ~ariance. , I asked Eve to speak ~o her brouhers, 11 which she did. David was kind enough to ,,,~rite a note sEaEing fur the family, seating for 12 falnily that, of course, they have no objection for whmt Eve wishes ~o do. That is uhe q-uickest 13 v~riance i',;e ever put en before Ehis Board_ BOARD MEHBER TORTOP~Z~: ...... ~o ~he 14 property across the s~reet from it, ~he Town Harbor Terrace, hew do Ehose properties get 15 access; do the,/ use the paper right-of-way} HR. ANDERSON: WhaE we'~e al,~zays done, 16 ma~be E~e can answer, we were to park uhere, we some in from uhe back and sere of park on the 17 lawn. When I go Ehere, I usually park -- is that at David's house or Bebby's? i don't know which 18 ore has which_ NS. NCGRATH: David' s _ David' s nexE 19 me. [,fR. ANDERSON I usually park ~here. 20, B,Z,_RP.D MEMBER TORTORA: Nhat is ~cur principal access :e this properts? 21 MS _ MC,IP~TH: ~ P~ave i~ as Daly, want cars in fron~ ef my house 22 BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: =~ccess for the lots on shat would be to the east, epposite Town Harber 23 Terrace thai run along :here? MS. HCGRATH: They come on To,,~n Harbor 24 Terrace. BC,_~P~D MEMBER TORTOPJe: is LoE 3,S improved? 2 ~ BC, A~D HEHBER GOEHRINGER: fas HR. /-2.IDERSC, N: I'm Not sure which one ~hat Juls- iS 2004 30 1 2 is. BOAP_D MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It' s ~he one 3 direcUly to the right. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: The road doesn't { go all across that property? MR. _a2C~DERSON: No. IE stops at the 5 Hippodrome, which is o~,~ed bl,- the Hoey's, who are also Dal',s. 6 BO3P, D MEMBER TORTORA: It is a paper road, but as you well know, there may come a day when it 7 ?,ill be improved. ~,P~. }2,IDERSON: The Hippodrome is en~ireiy 8 wetlands so no house could be built hhere_ It's literally a creek, so it will never lead to 9 anywhere tl~at could be developed. BO~i~_D MEMBER TORTORA: Thank you. 10 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: It looks like jcu're going to dormer out on the second story 11 i~'s just a porch. CHAIRW,D?~2~ OLIVA: Jerry? 12 BC, ARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I ha?e no yuestiens. 13 CMAIRWOM.'~iq OLIVA: I have no problem in either. }mybody in ~l~e au{lance that would 14 like Eo speak on ~his application? Hearing none, I ..,ill make a motion closing the hearing and 15 reser?ing decision until later. (See minutes for resolunion.i 16 ................................. BOARD MEMBER TC, RTORA: What nappeneO with 17 I.icFeel!,~ and Nigro? ,2HAIRWOI'.iAi,~ OLIVA: Nigro' s right here _ 15 PIS. NIGRO: I did misspeak. It is a Pre Certificate of occupancy that ¢,e're striving 19 toward. BOARD MEMBER TORTOPJ~_: That you don't 20 haye _ MS. NIGRO: That we're working towar,~s, 21 and ~his is one of the many steps. CHAIRWOHAN OLI%,A: Let me reopen the 22 hearing. Nake a motion to reopen the hearing_ ,'See mznuues for resoiuEion.! 23 BOARD SECY KONALSKI: For the record, Hrs_ Nigro, tell us what has de~.eloped since the last 24 discussion. [,IS. NIGRO: I went over to the Building 2~ Department spoke with Damon, and he was the gentleman I had spoken to previously aSout ~he July IS, 2004 31 1 2 rejection for the Pre C of O. ARd he instrus~ed me tha~ the steps I needed te ~ake, pre~.iousiy i 3 did have an attorney ~haE was handling it, for which i caN't afford so I am doing it mi?self. Se '4 he has been helping me with the seeps. This firs~ step was for the guesU cat,age te have ~ deck, and 5 if I may make a s~atemen~ if that's appropriate? C HA i RWOP,~_LB, J OLTVA: Certainly 6 MS. NiGRO: The deck i~self maE~ers little ~o me ~ersonally but matters greatly Eo the 7 on-island resid.ent who lives there. The island itself has var!/' little afferdaloie housing for 8 on-island residents and this happens te be a very aEEractiye and nice one. The deck zs used bi,' them 9 qui~e frequently, and ~hev fel~ passionately Eo ha,re it. it's certainly easier for me te just 10 dismantle ~he deck, it's very small, and ~hen mo, e on. i'm ~rying Eo do the right thing hoEh for 11 this on-island resident and ~hen in conformity with ~he zoning regulations_ i wanted ~o make 12 that statement, and I sene pictures, I sent a ~.ariety of pictures. Some show preexisting 13 construction en the neighboring property, which I feel is probably more egregious than the deck that 14 is cn the house. BOARD SEC¥ KOWALSKI: Wha~ happened with 15 zhe Building Department since you left Ehis morningi 16 [,Is. NI,:R~: The,,-wrote this letter. The letter is basically stating that for me Eo - I 17 need zc gez I'll use their words, I need zo gee ~his variance for the deck, whioh again is 18 preexisEing, in order for zhem zo do zhe Pre CO en the cot tag, e. uhl , .~ _ That'o interesting. ~C,ARD SECY K,DWALSKI: They have no prebiem 2,3 with Dhe coLLage ~pparently. MS NIGRO: The,:' have no problem with ~he 21 ecEEage cther than this deck_ The cottage iEseif ~s nonconfolqT~ing because iE sits in front of the 22 main house, b~ it wes pre-1957 that it :,;as construcLed. The deck iDself ,~as build post 1957, 23 however, the previous owner never boLhered to ge. through ~he motions of getting nhe proper permits, 24 which is what ~ ~m trying to do. BOARD ME[-IBER TORTORA: I just asP_ed our 25 ~,sun~l~- cr made him aware .Df the discrepancy between the notice of dismpproval, v~hich is before July 1S, 2004 32 1 2 ns, which puZs the issue of a guest house is not a oermi~ei accessory use in front of us in your 3 application as being one of the reasons that ~his was disapproved_ You're seeking a permit for 4 construction of a deck addition ~o an existing nonconforming guest hou'se, and then he clearly 5 sEa,es iE's not permitted. So i'm Er!ring to figure out, ~ou're saying that's not the issue, 6 iE's just the deck, but that's really not what the no,ice ef disapproyai says_ ? MS. NIGRO: Again, when I received the notice, I was quite alarmed because in my opinion 8 it' also had changed the magnitude of m~ adventure. f-~d I called ~he Building Department and had a ~ discussion with ~hem. That is wha~ he is ~rying te express in this letEer. He said to me the 10 house itself was built pre 15,57_ The house itself already is grandfathered as a nonconforming 11 structure, however, you cannon make any impro~emen~s on a nonconforming strucEure. Se 12 uhau w~en they put ~he deck on tha~ ~hey did sc. not only without a building permiu but they put 13 ~he deck on a nonconforming structure that could ns~ have any further building done to it. So I 14 needed to clear up and gee a permit for the deck on a nonconforming, preexisting grandfathered 15 structure is what the Building DepartmenE said to me, bs~h verbally and what he's trying to adtress 16 in Ehis letter_ BOARD MEMBER DINIZiO: i read ~his 17 disappre,~al to mean jus~ exactly what 5his lady said, and I find that Ehe building inspector is 18 almost always unclear in that he overstates ~he reasons, and I don't see any reason to hold 5his 19 lady up, other Ehan I think we all agree that the s~ruc5ure has been there and i5 is nonconforming, 20 and it is a residence and it has been and it seems Eo satisfy 5he Building Inspector that it has been 21 always 5here. So I mean, if we accept her letser and approve her deck then she goes and gets her 22 pre CO. MS_ NIGRO: I also spoke with all the 23 neighbors and eventually spoke with them. I did no5 bring any letters, I didn't think to do Lha5, 24 bu~ the house itself, I took a picture of it's charming. An~ again, if the Zoning Board, 2S I'm respectfully, asking them to. do wha~ i think is 5he righ5 thin~ to do. if the Zoning Board feels JuP, 1S, 200% 33 1 2 creaUiy that uhis is inappropriate, you know what, I'll uake the deck off, that's what i'il de, I'm 3 uhet committed - seriously I'm that commiuued " ~c doing wha~ the previous owner did ne~ do. it's 4 a hardship no~ for me, I don't have to live there. !~ is a hardship for the gentleman that is living S ~here and this deok provides reprieve, provides a space to siu outside and grill a h~mburger_ 6 BO}~.E, SECY K~W~h~KI. It's possible ~h~ we migh~ be able ue solve iu by getting an amended i d~ sapprovai_ BOARD },IE~,~BER TORTOP3_: Le~'s ge~ the ieg~l 8 issues before us. ASST TO~'~'I ATTY CORCOR}i,I: The question 9 put te me is EhaZ zhe notice of disapproval says than hhe gues~ house is not a permitted accessory 10 use. [.IS. NIGRO: Pre 1957, grandfa~hered. 11 .... T TONN ATTY nORC,qRg2.i- ~'[e have a ciarifica~ion from the Euilding Department, which 12 I believe seems to suggest ~o me tha~ they would issue e pre CO for ~he guest con,age if ~he 13 ~arianse and permit were granted for the deck. BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: It's backwards. ih=.~ have stated the~.~'re going to eliminate %hat ~, requisiEe ~[ 15 =_~T TOWN ATTY CORCOPfeN ~ The~ would issue a pre-CO for the guest house. I~ seems ] 16 ~ne ~hat woulO satisfy ~haE seconO problem. ~ BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: The expansion weuid ~ 17 simply revery back Eo ~he expansion efa [ nonconforming use as opposed ~o a single variance? ' lB .... T TOWN ATTY ~Rcu~N_ CorrecE as '~ oppc. sed no ~he underlying nonconforming. ',' 19 ~.3ARD N~MSER TORTC, RA: I den' ~ h~ve a problem wi~h it. I ~hink ~he~~ should clean up [~[ 20 %heir ac~ and rewrite it_ Because a le~er from 1~ ~he Bt~ilding Depar~men~ we can aid ~o ~he file, ',' 21 but unless they actually amend the no,ice ef ,~[ disapproval. That's wha~ i~'s been advertised ~ 22 rs, r_ That's what's legally before us te address. :' [.IS. NIGRO: They don't see it eha~ way. I [' 23 unders~nt whe~ you're saying snd I know my opinion is not Eh~E ~r~uch weight. They ion't see 24 ~hat Lheir wording is unclear and quite henes~iy, seri.ousi,' i had a hearE a~tack when I read ~he 25 ie~Eer, i thought, I have a mountain he climb. ~ BOARD MEMBER TORPORA: Ha'am, none of this Jui_~ 15, 200% 3~ 2 is your fault. We'rd trying to clear ic up from our end. 3 .CHAIRWO~,F~2,~ OLIVA: We're trying ~o clear iE up so you're cleared up. 4 BOARD HEMBER DINIZIO: ThaE s~a~ement in there is in almost every one of ~heir 5 disapprovals. They deny Ehings that exist ail Ehe ~ime; they say iu's not allowed. I don'~ see 6 where's there's any confusion ~ all. If you read the file they can't give her a pre-CO if Ehere's a 7 deck en uhere that doesn't i~a,;e a CO_ If there's a deck that doesn't have a CO. Ail she needs is a 8 CO and all we need te do is grant that_ We're wasning more Eime on a porch than needs ~o be 9 wasued on this. A person's coming all uhe wa~~ from Fishers Island that's a day's journey alone. 10 This should just be approved and move en with iE. To me it's clear. I'm one vote_ 11 CHA I RNOMJ~2.J OLIVA: Jerrz~? BOARD HEHBER GOEHRINGER: I think we h~ze I2 ~o move on on it also_ I Ehink the issue of cleaning up is a nice housekeeping issue, bu~ it 13 appears thac it's not going Eo work. We jusu have ~o demand within the decision or a~ leesE couch it 14 in Ehe decision sa,~ing quite henesEly Ehat the Building Department based upon ~his new letter 15 recognizes the face that the guest coutage is a preexisting cottage prior te the zoning_ 16 ~_Hs. I RUC%I}2[ OLiVA: Lydia? BOARD HEHBER T~uRTOR~.: Thae's okay wi~h 17 me _ .... l TOWN ATTY CORCORAN: I Ehink ih s lB fine, I ~hink if you grant the iimi~ed .~ariance thee vo.u need to and send i~ back, and Ehey clean 19 up uhe file_ You can explain in your decision thaE yen do it wiEh Ehe undersuanding of X Y Z. 20 BOARD MEMBER TORTC, RA: Ne don't need E.o do the notice ef disapproval? 21 .... T TOWN ATTY CORCORi~.[: No. CHAIRWOH~i.i OLiVA: Make a motion no close 22 nhe hearing, reserve decision unuil later. At this time we'll break for lunch. 23 ~'See minuues for resoluEion.} 24 eH~,IRNoI~L32[ e, LI~.e: i'd like ~o reopen our hearing of July 15Ih. It is now 1:05 p.m. I'd 2g like uo have a resolueion ee open the hearing for Ronnie and Janice Soffer uo adjourn it and July 15, 2004 35 2 uonEinue this on AugusE 19th au 11:45 a.m. ,,See minumes for resolution_'} ,_M~e!Rh~eIf-2l C, LIVA: Next hearing is Jerry 4 Schul~heis. This was a denial, a building permi~ KO consUru.2t additions, alterations to the ~ existing building, it was also brought to a lawsuit and it was remanded back from the cour~ te 6 us because we have a new member, P~r. Dinizio, and I was absenE at that time and had hoe had an ? opportunity to view it or vote on it. So we are reopening, is ~here anyone who wishes to speak 8 for ~his? HR. BRESSLER: Per the applicant, Eric J. ~ Bressler, Nickham, Bressler, Gordon and Geese, P.C., Main Road, Ma~i~uck, New York. 10 i'm a little ~E a loss this afternoon to understand exactly what's happening here_ i heard 11 Ma'am Chairwoman, that you are reopening the hearing. I~ is my understanding that the purpose 12 of the remand was for reconsideration of ~he decision of the Board, and I am just a lizzie 13 uncerEain as ~e exactly OHAiRWO~,L~2~ OLIVA: Being ~ha~ Mr. Dinizio 14 ani I were net presenL the firs~ Eime, i~'s kind cf a reopening so we can hear testimony because we 1S .iii not hear it before. HR. BRESSLER: That's net my 16 undersEanding, and for the record, I'm going Eo objecu to uhau parEicular procedure. Neneuheless, 17 if uhe Board is inclined to de something along thee line over my objection, I will proceed. 18 BOARD M~HBER GOEHRiN,~ER: Why don'~ we unierstand exactly wha~ the cour~ said, and then 1~ we'll go from that point. Wha~ is your opinion for whau ~he ludge said? 2,-0 MR. BRESSLER: Hy opinion for what ~he judge said was ~hat there was ne suppern in ~he 21 record for the determination ef the Board. BOARD HEI~'[BBR GOEHRINGER: Now we're going 22 to give you support. And whaEever ~he determination of Madam Chairperson is in her 23 cpinien on this situation, she was nee presenE. Now we're going to give you supperE. Ne're going 24 ts, gi~e ~ou all the supper~ ~hat we are going ~o nee,~ to de,ermine if it's going to be as ~he 25 applicants wan~ i~ or as ~he Board suggesEed. HR. BRESSLER: I understand ~hat ~ha~'s July IS, 200% 3~ 1 2 whaE you inEend Eo do Eoday. All I'm saying is thee that is ever my objeceion. That ha,~ing been CHAINWOt,~m2,I OLIVA: Proceed. 4 MR. BRESSLER: What I'd like to do is to incozpora~e by reference the proceedings that were 5 previously had before Ehis Board so thee we den'E rein~ent ~he wheel. So EhaE's the first order of 6 business. C~klRWO},~2I OLiVia: Bric, I'd just like te ~ hear briefly what ~he applicanE's position was. I didn't hear it, Mr_ Dimizio didn'~ hear iE. 8 BOARD MEMBER TORTe?se: Yo~ were only absent for ehe decision. ~ CMAIRWOMRi,I OLIVA: I was absent for the hearing Eeo. This is Ehe firsE time h~at ~ ,,,ant 10 down to view Mr. SchulEheis' property because I ~as ah. senE for the -- 11 BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: Madam Chairman -- ASST TOWN ATTY ,20RCOR~: I think your 12 request is fair te incorporate the record below from the prier, I think thaE's only fair. ~ ~hink 13 i~'s else fair Eo have a brief explication. And agaiR, I don'u think that's prejudicial at all, 14 bu~ your prior record is what i~ is and will be pare of the deEermination. 15 HR. BRESSLER: And w~eEher or nee a couru decides, it's more Ehan thee remains ~o be seen, 16 buE given ~haE oSjectien and reservation, 1'11 pu~ m-~ clienE up here an~ have him describe for Harem 17 Chairwsman and Members of ute Board whaE Enis is abcuu. 18 ASST TOWN ATTY CORCOP3_N: I ~nink ~hat's how we s~ould proceed. 19 NIR. SCHULTHEIS: Mi' name is Jerry Scheltheis_ FirsE I'd like to give you ute 20 affida,~it ef sign posting. Here are two copies ef ute Eestimony I will give teda_-. 21 Basicall.,, ute suSject maUUer i will go o er rode? is primarily in rebuttal te the 22 testimony EhaE was given - HR. BRESSLER: Jus~ by way of 23 clarification, what's been handed up is ~he decumenE Searing the Elsie Zoning BoarO Hearing, 24 July lb, 200% submitted hi ~he applicants; ~hat's Ehe cover sheet, and i~ consists of a series of 25 %,~ri~ten submissions and pho~ographs and documents in suppor~ thereof, i ask ~ha~ tha~ be made pare July lb, 2,304 37 1 2 of mhe record. BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: Usually we require 3 seven prints, would you be able to send us five o~hers h-~ separate delivery for the record so each 4 member can have their own color copies for review? It doesn't have to be ~oday 5 HR. SCHULTHEIS: Is a coral of ~i~e copies required? 6 BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: Five copies and one for ~he record, six would ~e fine. 7 HR_ SCHULTHEIS: The remaining copies will not be in color then. 8 The ~ocument ~ha~ was given ~o you contains evidence presented to the Supreme ,2curt 9 State sf New Yor}~ regarding the Article 78 proceedings Orought b/ myself and mi' wife, Jerr_- 10 and Carolyn Schuluheis, againsE the Zoning 8oard of Appeals of ~he Town ef Souuhold as well as 11 information to refuEe the testimony of Eno 2hairwoman ef the Zoning Beard aE that poinE in 12 Eime. The informaEion contained in Ehis documen~ 13 addresses item bi~ item every piece ef e~idence presented by the Town. The following i~ems will 14 be addressed in ~he document: The chara,s~er of uhe neighborhood; the fire and emergency access iS issue; ~na fallacy of the request being self-creaned; Ehe environmental concerns raised; 16 ~he proper~y consEraints as ~hev exisE aE Ehe location now, and ~he reques~ for ~he 17 in~erpre~aEien ef code which was eriginaily made wi~h ~he original application. 18 dust ~igressing from the material that was presente{ ~e you, wha~ ehe project was is we 17 presentl5 live in a hcusa Ehat has 1,000 square feet. My wife and l, Sack a couple ef years ago, 20 moved bs this house full ~ime after living in a residence with 3,000 square fee~ before, ant 21 basicall,, we have one bedroom, a very ~iny bath, there's no bat~ tuO in the entire house, and our 22 desire is te give ourselves a li~le more iiving room, okai, 1,000 square feet as compared to the 23 size of houses that exisE Eo,iav is minuscule. Our reques~ is i~ ~o add 500 ~o 600 square fee~ over 2% in the existing building end'elope. There's no a~temp~ made Ed go an~~ larger Ehan the envelope 2S which exists at this pein~ in ~ime. There's ne increase in se~acks. There's no change in lot July 1S, 200~ 38 1 2 ccverage_ AE Ehis po±nt ia time, nhe lot coverage is 1% percenu, which is well below the 20 percenu 3 that the R40 code calls for. Se basically, what we're asking for is the 4 ability ~o give ourselves a little more living area, anO we don't consider it excessive to ask 5 for a ~oual of 1,600 sqllare feet considering the size sf s~ructures chat exist ~eday. Se the basic .S application was to add to ute house, add mo uhe second ficer, not increase the footprint of the 7 house one inch. Tnau was the applicauion_ And I come before you basisally as $ someboOy ~ha~ has considerable experience in wor~ing wi~h government. I spent e,Yer 30 years 9 working in government on tong Island anO across the counEry. I'm a graOuate civil engineer_ I've 10 done graduate work in sells engineering. ± nave ser_~ed as a member ef the Planning Boar~ in Ehe 11 Village of Lloyd Harbor an~ our responsibility was Ec both ~ddress planning an~ zoning issues. I'm a 12 past member of the American Planning AsseciaEion, and I have assisted in the implementation of many 13 information processing systems regarding the use ef lan~s throughout the meEropolitan area. 14 also served the Town of Southol.i. I was a past member of the Police Advisory Committee. I'm a 15 present member ef the Board of Assessment Reyiew, ~nd l',;e just been named a stakeholder by the 16 Town_ Se I have some fsmiliarit:, with the issues in the tev~n. I worked wi~h t~e Town in the 17 '~0s doing a sEudv en uheir information and geographic information requiremenEs -- information 18 system recfuirements. Basically, when you look at the faces, 19 it's difficult kp comprehend uno reason for the Boart's actions_ In mi? opinion, the evidence does 20 noE support the ruling of the Board of ~ppeals_ And what is especiall} disturbing te us is ute 21 pssture taking by the Board that discourages the care of senior ciEizens by immediaEe members ef 22 their f~milies. We find tna~ very discouraging. New, what I would like ~o do is I would 23 like ~o uake the rebuttal tha~ was given b~' the To~n and address i~ deem for item and share 24 you what m~' thoughts sre as far as t~e facts in this case_ 25 CHA±RWOPLZ2{ OLIVA: Do we have a copl- of that? Jul~ 15, 2,504 39 1 2 i.~R ~_HULTHEI~: Pardon me? Ck~iRWOHAN C, LIVA~ Do we have a Jopy? 3 MR. SCHULTREIS: That was given ~o ~ou by ute courE. This is ute documenE submiuted to tr~e 4 court. BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: The attorney ga~.e it 5 Es uhe court; is ~ha~ true? Iu wasn't presented here sE Ehis hearing? 6 HR. SCHULTHEIS: Your attorney did nou give you e copy ef ~;hat was given te them au the 7 court? BOARD MEN~BER TORTOPJe: We don'~ have it 8 wi~h us. MR. SCHULTHEiS: We'll provide vou'a copy. 9 You can go i~em by item ~hrough the 17 i~ems and iisEen to my information and relate it tc, that 10 informat ion. Okay, I'll address each of ~he 17 points 11 individually. IYems 1, 2, 3, merely states nhe facts regarding the position of [.liss Torn.ora, and 12 has ehe histori? of the application and the local demographics there associated wi~h i~. 13 Item ~ sta~es ~hat proper~y is significantly undersized and nonconforming. This 1~ is true bu~ you must realize nhat the structures .~ere initially built prior Es any zoning in the 15 uown. Any addiEiens and aluerations which were made to tha~ building all have necessar,, permits, 16 ~-ariances, COs, whaEever paperwork is required. Review of the evidence submitted will show the ii entire neighborhood wiEhin a 600 foot radius of .our dwelling is nonconforming to the zoning ~hat's 18 in place ri._~ht now. One hundred percent of eyerv iweiling within 600 feet of ours is nonconforming. 19 Item 5 addresses the setbacks. The seEbacks are real and exist sillier because thei~ 20 existed before zoning or because alterations which hays the necessary permiEs and approvals have been 21 undertaken. Item 6 basically states a fac~ by the 22 requested addition. The addition ~haE has been asked for is completely coneained within ~he 23 existing building envelope, which again has all ~he necessary required permits and approvals in 2% place. The additional living space will he cs. ntainet compleEely within Lhis existing buii,ding 2 S enve lope. I~em 7 s~a~es Ehe Building DepartmenE July 15, 2004 1 2 denied the applica{ion before the R40 Zone, requires a setback of at least 35 feet This in 3 fact is the reason for requesting the variance, that was the reason given for denying the bull{lng ~ permit. None ef the ,other issues raised b5~ the Zoning Board are contained in Building 5 E, epartmenE's denial. I~ must be also noted that the subje2t properEi~ is a.2tuall~~ in the M1 6 and net in the R%0 ze~e and residential 2cnsEruc~ion is an aiiewable use in the M1 Zone. 7 Item 8 addresses ~he application for ~.ariance. The application for the variance was 8 submitted with a cover letter which contains significant amounts ef information which addressed 9 man}- of tRe issues involved in this request and seem te have been ignored. 10 Item 9 indicates the Board denie~ the application without prejudice. It also appears 11 uhel~ denied the application Oased en testimon-' referenced which was never heart at the public 12 hearing. There was the testimony of two residents of New Suffolk that was presented at the public 13 hearing, one of whom has iniEiate~ a history of contentious reiatienships with both the 14 petitioners and the people that o~n~ed the house Defore a~s. 3!~d the fact there appears te be a 15 complete lac~ of understanding of the character of the neighborhood_ 16 Item 10 addresses the issue of the area of u~e li~ing room adde~ and the setbacks. Again, 17 it must Se stressed that the let coverage remains at 14 percent, which is less than the require~ 20 18 percent in the R40 Zone. As a mat~er of fact, the cooperage can be brought do¢~n to 8 percent by 19 comDining with Lot 44, which a~jeins the suhje.ut property In other variances granteO in Eno area, 20 the let coverage was Ehe basis for the decision and setbacks, whic~ were worse than exist at this 21 particular location, were never addressed. This is selective and nonconsisten~ interpretation of 22 ~he zoning laws_ Item 11 addresses Lhe character ef the 23 area and the detriment tha~ was supposeOly brought to nearbl~ properties. As a ma~er of fac~, every 24 waterfront building, bo~h residential and commercial within 3,000 feet te the south ef our 25 heine is nonconforming, both for setbac]¢ reasons an~ building lo~ coverage reasons, f~d if we ge Jul~~ 15, 200% 41 1 2 to the nerth, the four immediate lots also exist under the same circumstances. Thel~ do nee conform 3 t? the zoning_ in addition, all the surrounding in~erier lets are nonconforming as well as per the 4 R40 Zoning. The material contained in the decumen~ submitted contains much evidence 5 regarding ~he issues of the character of the area, the detriment, the purported detriment ef nearby 6 ~roperties and the issue of the pristine aspec~ of ~he inlet which was brought up by the ~.~nzng 7 Board. item 12 introduces ~he issue of emergency 8 access. There was no testimony at the public hearing en this paruicuiar subjecu. If you look 9 at the Town Code, it requires IS feet of .clearance for emergency access. The right ef way that 10 exists to access this particular property is 29 feet wide. If you go ouu and look at the large 11 objects such as poles, ~rees, et cetera, at no point in ~ha~ right of way will you measure less 12 ~han 15 feel ef clearance. If necessary, the right of way can be cleared to 29 feet, if that's 13 whau's required. The Town Ceie requires 15 fea~. In addition, we contacted the l_~chogue Fire 14 r, epartment on this particular issue, and the~ ±nu±,~h=d they have no problem access~n,u uhe 15 property for emergency purposes. What is especiall5 disuurbing en this issue of accessing 16 uhe properUy is te realize that the Beard has taken a posture ~hat discourages the care of 17 senior citizens by members of choir families at their homes. 18 BC. ARD MEMBER GOEHRING~R: That is so far fro. m the truth, Mr. Schultheis, i have ever heard 19 an/ statement in any document for the 2~ ~ears I ha-~e been en chis Board, and I'm going to tell you 20 why. Y.su were tcld and you were asked a~ that hearing uo please work on a project that would 21 fill in ~he area beuween your house toward yok~r garage. And for you to frivolously cai~ that, I am 22 absolutely appalled at your statement_ MR. SCHULTHEIS: I reaO from Lydia's 23 s~atemen~ given ~o the cc. urt: "The Board else deeermined that the house presently maintains nc, 2% suitable aceess for fire and emergency vehicles. Phe additional living space requesued by Ehe 25 petiticners exacerbates this problem, in fact, Ehe petitioners explained that ~hey wanted their July 15, 2004 42 1 2 aging mothers to move into The new portion of the house. The Board felt that an increase in the 3 potential number ef people living at the house would increase the potential demand for such 4 vehicles and create an unaccepLable safety risk. BOARD MEMBER euEHRIN,~ER: Based upon the 5 csnstruc~ion that you wanted, not based upon ~he fact -- anything can sound ~he way you want iE to 6 sound and !ou can interpret the way you want to inter~ret i~. 7 MR. SC~ULTHEiS: PhaE is addressed Eo ehe issue of emergency access. 8 BOARD M~HBER GOEHRINGER: I will stand up in an/ court of law and tell you, sir, Eham that 9 statement is your interpretation. That is not the way uhan hearing was constructed. 10 Excuse me, Ru~h, I apologize. HR. SCHULTHEIS: I consider myself to be a 11 reasonable person, an educated person, and than was m~ in~erprenaEion of what that says. 12 BOARD MEMBER =uEHRIN=Eh: Then why ditn't fou do wha~ we asked? 13 MR. SCHULTHEIS: We'll gun to ukat. BOARD HEMBER =~EHRIN=ER: Fhen get no than 14 ~hen_ We don't have this document in front ,of us therefore we ha,~e to use our thoughns no reflect 15 upon ~our document. This hearing should be stopped aE this particular point until we have 16 e~-er-~ one of those elements in front of us. But i respect Nadam ,Chairperson because this hearing 17 will nee csn~inue un~£1 such ~ime I ha~.e a chance ~c, review every one of those documents you have 18 brought up today. I take ~his totally .offensive not having that in front of me. 19 MR S~HIhlHEIs: I am incensed that yo~ do not ha~e the materials. 2,3 CHAIRNOM}2,? OLIVA: Enough. i want to get to the fac~s, please, continue your presentanion_ 21 I h~ven'E heard it. i want Eo hear it. MR. SCHULTHEIS: Ite~ 13 basically says 22 ~haE this whole situation was self-created and we knew abou~ this when we bought the house. We 23 k.ough~ ~he house in 1987. in 1988 we got a permit basically to redo our bulkhead and te pu~ an 24 ad,dillon on the house. We added six feet to the north side of the house, which is the portion in ~ question riqht_ now. Le~ me ask this: Nhere did ~he Board get the information that we knew ~ve Jul~ 15, 2004 43 1 2 couldn't add to th6 house? That baffles we completeli~, i~ was not presented at the public 3 hearing_ i~ was not brough~ up. Where did come f roln? 4 CE~IRWOM_~2'I OLIYA: i don't know, continue. 5 BOARD HEHBER GOEHRINGER: I don't know ~.~hat you're talking about_ 6 ZHAIRNONNt~ 0LIVA: Jus~ keep going_ NR. SCHIILTHEIS: Item 14 addresses the 7 issue of the suability of the bulkheading at the house. Again, this concern ?~as brought up au the 8 public hearing, and was addressed a~ the hearing. The parameters of the design of ute buikheading as 9 ??ell as ~he foulldatien was brought up at the meeting; but for the record, the additional ~¥eight 10 of any addition ~o the house will have no affect on the bulkhead because when the addiEion was pun 11 on the house in 1988, a foundaEion was construcEed ~hat basically brings Ehe load of ute house down 12 below any level tha~ is supportet by the _E ~ a bulkhead. The foundation, eve~ though 13 crawl spaee underneath, is eighe feet deep, the fcoting is wider, less pounds per square lose and 14 there is no weight exhibited on the bulkhead in 15 In addition, when the bulkhead was built, r~iie design was based on uhe design ef pressure 16 ~reated wood bulkheads by James S. Graham of ~he American ~^ ' ~ S~,~:t,~. of Civil Engineers. Every member 17 than };as used Es build the bulkhead was larger than wha~ the design dictated; for example, 18 E~-~ree inch thick sheathing that was used insuead ~,,_ the Ews inch sheathing is 225 percent stronger 19 than what was required by the design. So the design of the foundation already elevated the 20 problem of an,:' weigh~ on the bulkhead, the weigh~ is no~ put en the bulkhead and the bulkhead is 21 over-designed. An,~ than was brought up as an en ~iren~r~enual concern to rejecu t~e request. 22 In I~em iS, the issue of ocher feasible less inurusive meuheds ef consuruction was 23 addressed. In the attached document, there's a secuion called the consuraints of the property 2% In ~hat document yon will see %,~here ~.~e mandated ~o place cesspeois by the DE,E, where we 2~ were mandated to put in dry wells by ~he Trustees; where there are deeded right of ways for July 1~, 2,},94 2 undergronnd eleceric, underground cable TV, under~round water and underground gas. You will 3 see where the garage is, wha~ is required for back uF space. I referenced what we went through winh 4 the DEC and the Trustees in getting the permit for the project. Under no circumstances did Lhe,/ want S ~o consider any buildin~ closer ~o Cu~chogue Harbor. 6 Sc., based on the consEraints that exist on the si~e right new, the onlf real alternative is 7 ~.s build up and not increase ~he foonprin~. And ~he whole fallacy of this approach is that it does 8 nothing bs change the exisEing setback, which was ~he primary reason for rejecting the 9 application_ The building doesn't come back any further from where iE is new if I build in another 10 area, those existing conditions remaiN, does absolutely ne~hing te change ~hem. 11 Item 16 addresses ~he issue of seeking an interpretation of the codes. Nhen Eke application 12 was submitted, there was a cover letter submitted with the application; in that cover letter it 13 specifically asked for Ehe interpretation ef the cote. AE ~he public hearing that same request was 14 made. YeE the statements say no interpretation of the code was asked for. The requesE was clearly 15 zgnored_ As far as ~he last item, as far as I'm 1~ ocncerned, in's obvious nhe denial of the variance was done with prejudice_ When you review the 17 facts, iE was n.s~ raEional but appears bc be more emotional based on the testimony of two 18 non-residents of the area, and it lacks the presence of any evidence and should be changed. 19 That addresses ~he court decumenns, so to speak. Also included in wha~ I gave you is an 20 overview of the characteristics of the neighborhood. There's an aerial photograph that 21 shows you whaE the neighborhood looks like. ?here's a zonzng map that shows ~ou the zoning of 22 ~he neigl-~orhood. There's a petition of the surrc,~nting neighbors that we teak regarding nheir 23 senEimen~ that the house was out of character and a detriment E,o the neighborhood. One hundred 24 ~ercent of those people approached agreed tha~ ~hey did no~ agree with the Board's decision 25 here. Talk about the pristine nature ef Schoolhouse Creek, ,contained in ~his document are July 15, 2004 45 1 2 Uhe pictL~res of the junk yard which exist nexu to cur house which clearlf doesn't support the 3 aspects of the pristine nature sf the creek and i~'s at least encouraging to realize Eha~ in this ~ particular a~a the Zoning ~oard has ~aken a posiEion tha~ ~hev would like te see a pristine 5 condition in this creek. I personally will take ~at as a mandate tha~ the junk yard EhaE exists 6 needs to be cleaned up. We also nalk about the close bf waterfront 7 residenEs, wha~ exists in ~he area_ if you loo~ at what's there? not one of them within 3,000 8 square feet to the sou~h is conforming and looking to the norEh the four contiguous parcels are 9 nonconforming. And then we get into the area where we have the two and three larger plots, 10 which is not comparaOle to the characEer of t~e neighborhood in which ~he house is locaned_ 11 I won't go into the details of each ef those bun for each of these points I brought up 12 ~here's verbiage in the document that addresses the specifics, ~here's pictures; I talke{ about 13 the fire and emergency access. CHAIRWO[~t32[ 0LIVA: ThaE's in this documenn 14 ~hat leu just handed up? MR. SCHULTHEIS: Yes. we addresse~ the 15 fallac~ of the reques~ being self-created, i'd just li~e ~o ask the question, who on the Board 16 knows wha~ we were ~hinking when we bougk~ ~nis house? Nhere did ~ha~ come from? Ne~hing? 17 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I didn't understand that question either_ You want te 18 restate the question for me, Mr_ Schni~heis? HR. SCHULTHEiS: Yes. In the ~ocumenE 19 presenEed Eo Ehe court, i~ specifically sai~ ~hat ~he petitioners kne,~ when thei bought the house 20 tha~ ~hey could never add to z~_ CMAIRWOPI}i[ OLiVA: In that specific 21 language? ~. SCMULTHEIS: Yes. 22 BOARD HEHRER DINIZIO: Hay I comment? CPL?elRWO~{m2{ OLIVA: Yes. 23 BOARD MEH~ER DINIZIO: In your Zoning ~oard decision it says ~u~ber %, variance 2e requeste~ has been seif-createO since ~he applicant purchased the property ¢,ith knowledge ef 2g restrictions in planning the additions. Now, the a~plican~ purcnase~ this preper~y in 1987_ Ann July 15, 46 2 the subject of this is ~alz, which is an interpretation that basically was never advertised 3 in the paper bi, the Town; it was something tha~ we did on our own, the Zoning Board. Se I don't see 4 how, and I'm trying to explain this, the applicant could have possibly known tnau uhey couldn'u build S up, on this property because building permits a~ Ehe time he purchased this proper~v have been 6 gran~e~ for Ehe verz~ same Ehing that he's asking for neda¥ . ? BO~RD N~ENLBER GOEHRINGER: Not in its proximity of the bulkhead. 8 BgARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes. BO~PD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 119 2B and 239.4 9 bo~h of the Zoning Code, the old code and the new cede would have still required a variance, and 10 ~heh is the reason why Ehat sta~emenE Ehat [,ir_ Schn£theis mede is a sEaEement wRich ~er~~ simply 11 meant ~ha~ he could no~ do anything or Mrs. Schul~heis could ~o nothing wiEhout a variance 12 application before this Board. BC,_ZP, D MEMBER DINIZIO: I disagree. 13 BC,ARD ±,[EMBER GOEHRIN,SER: Yen're welcome to ~disagree. And Ehat's m~, opinion. 14 MR_ SCHULTHEIS: And history will show than when those variances when requested were 15 primarill~ granted_ BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Not necessarily, 16 sir. ThaE was the purpose of t~e estahlishmenE of thsse two laws Sy a past environmentalist ~.~ho was 17 a Town BoarO member in Ehis town_ HR. SCHULTHEiS: We talk about the 18 closeness ~o ~he ~ulkhead and I'll have te bring ~p the closes~ house to me on the water recenEly 19 reques~e~ in 1999 a variance to add no nne house. 20 BOARD HEHBER GOE~ERINGER: Sure _ MR_ SCHULTHEIS: They llave zero front yard 21 se~ba.2ks. On one side ~hey are one foot from ~he bulkhead; on the other side of the house tl~ey have 22 enough room Eo par~ one car. They have abou~ a 15 foo~ rear yard setback to ~he bu£~,P~ead in the 23 rear _ BOARD HEHBER GOEHRINGER: Are they on a 2% peninsula like yours? MR. S,2HULTHEiS: No. 25 BOARD [,[EMBER GOEHRINGER: Unit-rue preper~y, character ef ~ne neighborhood. July 15, 2004 1 2 BOARD MEMBER E, INIZIO: May I comment again? 3 CHAIRWOH~N OLIVA: Quickly. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: · don't believe 4 E~is applicant was denied for what you just quoted, Jerr?. It looks to me like i~'s jusL, b 2%2A, which is non-conforming, which is Walz_ BOARD HEMBER GOEHRINGER: Jimmy, I'm 6 making a statement in general. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Sorry. You guys 7 made a decision, and you're telling me now it's based en someuhing other uhan w~au they were 8 disapproved for. BOARD HEMBER GOEMRINGER: · am m~king a 9 s~a~emen~ that ~he 75 foot setback aspec~ of it, ~ha~ is what I am making a sta~emen~ for. 10 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: They were not disapproved for that, Jerry_ 11 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRIMGER: I understand that. 12 ~OARD MEMBER DINIZIO: How could you pcssibly put thau inuo t~e decision? 13 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: i am saying, Jim, in question, in Uoto, the purpose of the law 14 was that reason. What we had here prior to the Schul~heises -- and I can'% give you the exac~ - 15 ietermination -- was an o1~ bait shop, which was then further made a house, which i assume they 16 purchased; is tnau correct? MR. SCHULTHEIS: At was made into a house. 17 TRaE paruicular area was Larry, Tu~hill's father li-'e~ there, his sister lived there; he sol~ i~ 18 from the Kreminses w~o we bought the house from, who li,.ed ~here, then we bought the house in 1987. 19 -BC, A~D MEMBER GOEHRiNGER: It was criginally a bait house; iE was Johnson's store. 20 MR. SCHULTHEIS: It's a house now. It was ute Kreminses' house Sefore us and ute P~arjory 21 Tuuhill house before uhau. We didn'E ma~e it in~e a house from a bait house. 22 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: · un{ersEand that. 23 t.[R. SCMULTMEIS: If wa go hack ~o ute 1500s iE was .~acan~ lan~_ Things change. 24 ~OARD ME?~BER GOEHRINGER: Auld we ask you, sir, for the second ~ime at this public hearing, 25 ~c. crea~e an addition between the house and the garage. July 15, 200% 2 MR_ SCHULTHEIS: In my ma~eriai is the maEerial that addresses the constraints of 3 that can't be done. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Anything can be 4 done, and you know that Eha~ can be done, sir. MRS_ SCHULTHEIS: DEC and Trustees will S ncE agree with that. BOARD HEHBER GOEHRINGER: ThaE's nc,~ my 6 problem. HR. SCHULTHEIS: As a matter ef face, 7 uhere's a variance in place for the garage. One of ute uhings zhau could be considered, puh some 8 living area above ute garage, cen't de uhau because the varience granted for ute garage 9 censtrucEion by this particular Board says it can be used for s~orage only. 10 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Between ~he house and che garage. 11 HR_ SCHULFHEiS: if you will look aE the evidence I supplied you, you will see where the 12 cesspools are locazed, where the sepuic ~ank is lccaued mandated by ute DEC_ 13 BOARD MEMBER ~EMP. INeER: Change them, put uhem in the right of way. 1% NR. SCHULTHEiS: that was tried. DEC is nsc willing co de that, ~oo close to the waCer_ 15 BOAP_D MEHBER GOEHRINLER: ThaE is che onl ~hing I can suggesE Ee you. 16 MR_ SCHULTHEIS: i have chree years ef negoziaCions with ute DEC as to where to put ~ha~ 17 sepuic system. That's ute only place the,/ said can ge_ lB BOARD MEMBER =OEHRINeER: Driye pilings and puc iE over iE. 19 CHAi RWOHAN OL Ili~: Ll. die? BOARD HEHBER TORTOPJ<: IE's very 20 difficuiE MR. SCHULTHEIS: The environmental -- 21 ,~Hs. IR%~F~2. DLiWA: Excuse me, LYdia's speaking. 22 B,Oia~_D MEH~ER TORTOP2~: Iz's very difficulE without following, I assume whau he's uaiking 23 ebouu is Frank isler's affidavit. Aluhough i de remember one thing ~hat he said chat I'd like cc, 24 make noCice of_ You said that you~ had applied for an inuerpretation, I have a copy of your 25 application dated two 2, ,, 0~, type of a~peal, you ahecked a ,~ariance_ You did no: check an July 15, 2004 1 2 interpretation of the code_ I have a copy of a letter dated January 7, 2,00,3 at Paragraph % yOkl 3 talk about asking for an opinion, request this section be considered as applying here of 4 100-239,3; however, the next paragraph you sa/ it is our opinion that the above-mentioned section 5 1,50-239-4 applies but since we need to keep requests for all approvals moving along 6 minimize additional ~ater damage, we ere submitting the request for a variance at this 7 time. That's a clarification ef ~,ou said that we did not act on your request for a variance the 8 reason is quite clear, you diO not -- MR_ SCHuLTMEIS: T~e reason for ~at was 9 that i spoke with Linda in your office, an~ it was indicate~ to me that this was a possible reason, 10 b~t if I wante~ te move along quickly, the way do it ~as to s~bmit the application for the one 11 thing. That was the advice_ BOARD MEMBER TORTOPdz~: Nonetheless it was 12 your decision_ MR. SCHULTHEIS: It would have been easy 13 b? pu~ another chec~ mark. BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: That's why I'm 14 correcting. In your earlier testimony you stated that we refused to act on it. That is incorrect. 15 I nave just corrected that. The reasons whi, are irrele,.ant, what you stated is incorrect, and 16 would like the opportunity, ~o go back over every ?~ori of this tesEimeny compare it to t~e affida~it 1~ that was submitte~ Dy outside counsel on this, because there are several things that you ha_-e 1S said that don't appear to be correct bu~ Senefit of tMe material before me, it's difficult 19 co ]se able co adOress it. ASST TOWN ATTY CORCC, P~N: Did the 20 a~plication for an Article 78 petition involve the issue'of interpretation? 21 HR. BRESSLER: There was no inEerpretaEion, so there was nothing to appeal. 22 LSST TOWN ATTY CORCOP~_N: Then we shouldn't be dealing with the request fur 23 interpretation righn now. MR. BRESShER: Whenher or non there's a 24 request for interpreuaUion remains to be deuermined; the papers speak for themselves. Ne're 25 not going to concede chat that's net so. T~e documents say what the~, say. July lg, 200e 5O 2 LSST TC,WN .~TT~ CORdOR.ZST: That s correct. Bu[ we have been remanded back here to deal wi~h 3 specific ~hings, and one .of those things was not the innerpre~a~i.sn request, ~v~et~er i~ was made .or ~ not made. FP._ BRESSLER: if ~haz's ~he way yo~ view ~= ii, then ~hat's the way you'i1 make your determina~ ion. 6 BOARD SECY KOWZ'J~SKI: I was wondering if an appiicatien would be necessary -- we don't have 7 an application for an interpretation. CHAIRWOPP~2,I OLIVA: I t ' s irrelevant. 8 Jerry, are you finished? BO_ni~D MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, I just 9 to apologize ~o Mr. and Hrs. Schultneis. I have absoiuEeiy nothing agains~ i:ou in queszion, 10 agains~ :our present preperey or anything of tha~ nature_ ~ just wane you to knew ~haz ~here were 11 certain things that fou said concerning the sen~or .zitizen aspect that upset me greatlf, and I do 12 apologize te you personally, both of you, for realli~ getting a little off ~he subjec~ en that 13 aspeot_ But i felh that I myself, as a member of zhis Board, has te reacz to that si~u~Eion because 1~ in no time did this Beard at an~~ time that ~ sa~ on it, which is 2% years ever, ever be 15 tiscrimina~ory in that sense. That's m5 opinion. MR. SCHULTHEIS: I accepE ehat. I loek 16 myself as I come before you as an adversary, i don'~ agree with whaE you told me. .rind now I've 17 come back and said these are the reasons I den'~ agree_ We're in an adversarial relationship here_ 18 I'~,~e said I don't agree with what you said. i'm taking mi: opportunity here te outline whau 19 feel are the issues. C~L%IRNO[~2I 0LIVA: Are you finished with 20 -_.-our presentation? NR. S,ZHIILTHEIS: The rest of the material 21 is con,mined in ~he documenE. ,ZHAIRNOPFei, I OLIVA: Because I don't think 22 we can -- absolutely I agree with b[rs. Tortera can accurately review iE properly until ~,e have 23 what Mr. Islet had submitted to the court. BOARD NEMBER ~OEHRIN~ER. And, [,ladam 2% ~h~z~om~n, we need of course the copies of this for every Board member. 25 CHAIRWC, PLmZ~ OLIVA: Is chore anybody else in ~his audience ~ha~ wishes te speak on thais July 15, 200~ 51 2 aNNlication? Larry, any kind for or against? MR. TUTHiLL: i'd like to present to the 3 Beard. BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: Hr. Tuthill is 4 presenting photographs, as well as Mr. ~o=hrlng~r. MR. TUTHILL: For the record, my name is 5 hawrence Tuuhill, and I am Ehe owner of the sch~lth=~s_ An,d that adjacent properties to Hr. ~ - ~ 6 is I don't like Ehe idea that more er less my Eesnimony er anything broughE up before this 7 organization be ~haE I am no~ a residen~ therefore iE should net be taken into account. I think it's 8 very important that a property owner and use his business usually does net live on that property, 9 and this is zoned marina, therefore I have more Ehan a residential person because this is marina 10 property, his is also marina property and we're looking au this under differenE a aspecE than a 11 residential. Therefore the ccnsideraEions in discussing this application should be taken as a 12 marina property and there are certain limiEatiens thaE i would like ~o request as se. And the fact, 13 as shown in the picture, Ehere are about 150 boats that ge in and out of this marina, and 1~ ~here's a lo~ of boat traffic in there. Mr. Schultheis has complained many times abeue the 15 noise being made there, ~he various things because there's a marina operation going eh, wheEher 16 bringing equipment onto the property and off the preperuy, which formerly, and s~ill use now as, a 17 base for dock building operaeien. And ceruainiv this mee~s to the conformiti of a residenuiai area 18 in ~he fact uhau everything has uo be spic and span olean_ If you also notice ~here are a leu of 19 buildings there and so Ehe area's clean, but my main concern is that with the Eraffic going in end 20 cut of there, when you ge up the second s~ory, nsrmally a leu of the noise is blocked cue b,~ his 21 bulkhead, bu~ the bulkhead, when you raise the building up, the noise coming from the people 22 going in and out of the marina is accentuated. And as he said, he's now having an eideri~ person 23 iiying Ehere in ~his marina area, and i don't think that someone elderly wants Eo be woken up 24 during Ehe night by some peepie shouting or talking te each o~her or someone leaving in and 2~ cue of the area au all times kecause it's noE like a car where you're closed in, usually in ~he boats July 15, 2004 52 1 2 the?'re on the ~utside speaking co each .other, they're quite often using search lights coming in 3 tc, the area, and ic's very disrupting to someone who is elderly, and i don't think, if, like has 4 been suggesced that the buildings be one story, wouldn'~ be se objectionable, but to ha~?e te 5 listen to probably all ~he complaints in the fucure that being in ~he second story you're upset 6 b, all this noise, we have buildings on Long Island Expressway where they built all kinds ef 7 big walls co seep noise from the traffic and this also is ~raffic coming in and out_ And I think 8 thac chose 150 people, boats running in and ouc of the harbor should nee have ce worry abo~ making 9 noise to disturb Nlr. Schuitheis. Mr. Schultheis says how organized he is 10 ant well-known, if you notice on his application, his bulkhead goes ou~ ~;,;o feet into the creek, buc 11 in his application, he never showed that there was land on che ether side, bu~ realizing th~at there 12 was a ca~-~al is chore, and se now it has gene out into na~.i.gable waCers. Yes, you have a permit 13 from the Eown, and yes, you have a permit from the DE_, bu~ if someone complained co che ,£0~ ,=Uc~d, 14 chau bulkhead would have to be removed Decause it's going into navigable channels, that is 15 inus a sureeu. He's auComaticaily thinking, well, i ha-~e righLs ce this. We don't ha~,~e rights to 16 the cen~er of Ehe cree]£, _%~eu have some righcs, but cna-~'re nsc se ,:ou could build out into them, and 17 they allowed him te build out ir~to the middle of the creek. On his original application when he 1S bought the propercy there was a line drawn cn there by the surve~2, or at the requesc of ~he 19 lawyer, but this line drawn on ic showei where he had rights te build on, use my properEy for a 20 float, and yet when ~eld him exa.sti!,,' this line is nsc there, co chis da~% the float is still on my 21 preperui., and I'm in the process of trying to get it removet bu~ because efa line drawn on a piece 22 of ~roper~y which is net his, I have this incumbrance on my property_ He's also built 23 feet onto my properly. It goes on and on. i h~ve ri~hus, there are righus he doesn't really have. 24 Thank you very much. .CHAiRWO~,~zS.I OLIVA: Is there an:~body else 25 who wishes to speak? Hr. Bressier? MR. BRESSLER: Briefli.- in reply, .~e July 15, 2,30,4 53 1 2 appreciaEe Hr. Tuthill's interest in cur well being and we Ehank him for that. Howeyer, given 3 Ehe constraints of the prepertl and the needs of the applicant there, Ehey are more ~han willing % deal ~,,ith ~ha~ situation. Of course, we disagree ~:ri~h the underll'ing assumpEions ef those comments, 5 and as to the balance of those comments, E~ey are plainly irrelevant and we ask chat the Beard deal 6 with Ehem as such. If the ~oard has an,:', eiEher fcr me or for the applicant, we'd be happ 7 en:er~ain them. Ozherwise, i~'s 2:00. BC,ARD HENB~P. SOEHP. INGER: i'd like to have 8 a cop!, of Mr. and Mrs_ Schultheis' Health E. epar~menE permiE showing the acEual position ef 9 their cesspool si'sEem and sanitary sysEem_ MR. SCHULTHEIS: In actuality, when it 10 came time ~o do the cesspool, we applied Health E, eparument, and they came back Es us and 11 said we have an existing cesspool and iu was nee neoessary to ge~ anything from them_ And the only 12 agency that determined where that was te be located was the DEC_ 13 B0_A~D NEHBER GOEHRINGER: Can I h~ve a ropy of EhaE? 14 [,IR. SCHULTHEIS: That's included in the information I gave 15 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I didn'E see nhat. 16 HR. SCHULTHEIS: Under consErainEs, there's a copy of Ehe permit granEed by Ehe DEC. 17 BDARD MEMBER GOEMR±NGER: But is there a surve~ indicating the exacE location? 18 HR. SCHULTHEIS: I will get that part of it. 19 BOARD MEMBER DII,[IZIO: Can I ask a quesEion? Eric, maybe you can help. I read the 20 Court's' decision but honestly I'm not clear, I wen,~er if you can summarize for me ~.~hat he 21 said. Whf are uhey back before us? NIR BRESSLER: That's a ma~er .of some 22 ,lebaEe_ Ne had asked that the determination of Ehe Beard be reversed based upon the fact that 23 ~here was no support for its decision, and in reviewing uhe order, particularly en Page 3 2% ~hereof, Ehe Cour~ made it clear ~haE the decision was deficient in that there was not a sufficient ~ basis Es supporE Ehe determination_ Then ~he Court went through Ehe various factors Eh~t the July 15, 2004 1 2 Board used, Ehe undesirable change, no support, exacerbate environmental factors, not supported, 3 in fact, the permits from the environmental people were ~rovided to you, suitable access, there was { nc support, benefit in o~her wei's, ~o support; ani, in fact, the Court found on ~he Walz issue h specifically that ~ha~ was brought in in 2002 and, of course, that was no~ self-crashed. 6 What happened Ehen was apparently realizing the deficiencies, counsel for ~he Eoard 7 s~Jomitte~ an answer, an affidavi~ which raised additional issues_ We rebutted nhem, nhe Court 8 de,ermined ~ha~ it was no~ going ~e e~en consider these issues. Then it wen~ on te say tha~ because 9 ~here was no factual basis, i~ was arbitrary an~ capricious, no~ supported, and Lt was remanded for 10 resonsideration. Now, we na~ a dispn~e at the beginning ef this particular hearing as to exactl/ 11 ~at thee reconsideration consisted of, and i~'s our view tha~ ~he record was net to be opened. It 12 was ~he Board's view that the record was te be opene~ o~er m~' objection; ~hat's been done. it 13 was s~a~ed by one of the Board members, Mr. Goehringer, I belie,.e that whaE was going ~o 1% happen was t~at the Board was going to go beck and ~ev were going to find support one wa-,' er another lb for whaE nhe Board determined to do, and EhaE ~hey were going ue see it forth. It was obviously my 16 vieT EhaE having failed to do the~ in the first instance that that sort of broad ~aseO 17 recensideraEien was no~ appropriaEe, and I think thaE's something ~he Boar~ is going to ha,~e to 18 deal with. That's my Eeke on it_ BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Let me ask one 19 more quesLion. HR. BRESSLER: Sure. 20 BOARD HEHBER DINIZIC,: I wiEnessed the e~cchange at the Oeginning and was somewhat 21 confused bi- it. i wasn't here for the hearing, iiSe I said, I did read, and in all honesty, I 22 prefer te listen te testimony, and I was for opening this thing because if I have to make a 23 decision en iE now, mz' name's going te be signed to it, ± wanu uo hear it. Whau -- 5~ou don'e here 2% ~o answer if you ~on't want to, malbe it's a nai-?e question -- what did you hope Eo gain by not 2~ having us open i~? What would have been the resulE ef that? July 15, 2004 55 1 2 HR. BRESSLEP: The result clearl] would have been a grallE. The Court ~r~ade it extremely 3 clear tha~ ~he record that was presente.~ below was inadequate he support the determination_ 4 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: We were ~old to act. Nha~ did you expec~ us to do? 5 HR. BRESSLER: =±~ -~s our relief ASST TO%'~N ATTY CORCOR_Rt~: I have to 6 respectfully disagree wi~h your interpretation .of the CourU's decision. '7 MR. BRESSLER: Of course you do. ASST TO~ ATTY CORCC, RAN: I must, because 8 ! feel strongly abou~ it. if ~he Court found ~here was ne way to support this decision in the 9 record, i~ very easily could have granted yok~ i/our relief. The Co~lr~ sent it back for 10 reconsideration, which leads one to Delieve ~hat the Board can either find in the record greater ll support or nee find in ehe record greater suppc, rE . 12 MR. BRESSLER: That ms something that you co,lid have done en the record_ 13 .... T TO~'.~ ATTY CORCOR~tl: The Board has elecEed ~o give you an opporEuniEy to make a 1% presentation which your client has done_ MR. BRESSLER: What the Board elected ~e 15 do is reopen Ehe record, and while i certainly agree wi~h ~he first part ef yeur s~atement, ~hat 16 ~txe Board could go back end reexamine ~he record, ant while I don't necessarii-~ agree based on the 17 record wi~h that determination, we didn't challenge i~ and ~he deeisien sEands. And i ~hink 18 wha~ you said is n~anifestiy so, a~ leas~ the firs~ part .of your comments; you can go back, look at 18 ~he record and determine whether there's support for wha~ you' re going to do, what the Board has 20 shssen to de, and what we hate done based upon the Board's position ever obiection and especially 21 given the feelings of some ef the Board members who weren'~ here, we'll represer~ the e~.idence, 22 and we will presenu whateyer i~ is as peru of ~his reopened hearing that we deem appropriate, 23 reser,~ing all our rights. So we presented the s~uff, you've heard it,~-' ,~^ given you ~he 24 material and there will be additional copies for -~ou ~o consider in addition te the material that 25 was put en the ormginal record. But i think i~'s fair to say that after listening today, probabl_,.~ July IS, 200~ 1 2 nhe members who didn't participate nave a fair idea about what the dispute is about and what the 3 request is fur, and prebabiy upon review of the dccumenns will have a better idea. And I ~are say ~ than nhe Board members w~o were here and participated in iu ]~new exacnly what's going on, 5 and yon can go back and everyOe~~ can review answer and Board Member Tortora's affidavit, an~ 6 you can look at all that. But ~he issues are ehey are, and the record reflects what it 7 reflecus_ f=md I'~ like to close up, unless there's an~ more questions, b%~ sa~ing that I think 8 that ~his application cries out for a grant_ When y©u look through the manorial, if any ef you Orive 9 down to New Suffolk, I know Board Member ,Soehringer knows it intimanely, I think you will 10 be Orawn Ye nhe conclusion that the character of the neighborhood is not going ne be elected. I 11 think ~he latest request than nhe Bo~rd made is a reasonable one, tna~ is for the DEC material. I 12 think nhat if the Board reviews ~ha~ matqrial it will appreciate the facn nhat t~e relief requesned 13 here really is ~riven by the property, an~ what can and ,cannot be done ~here, and if upon ~he 14 review of ~hose permits and the existing phlsieal con,%itions, the Beard reaches nhat conclusion, 'lb ~ge'd be extremely grateful. I don't think nhat il ansmers the quesnien, and I think in the heat of 16 argument both sides said things probably they shouldn't nave said, and to say we'll take stuff 17 and move it here and nhere realli~ doesn't address the issue because the Board has Eo weigh the 18 benefits an~ the burdens. And · think when you iosk at ~here ether agencies have said things 19 snoul~ be, an~ you look a~ ~he overall iai- of the land, I think you'll proDaOly conclude that ntis 20 is a modesn proposal given wnan's down nhere and nobodl's going le be hurt by in. 21 CPLTalRWONL~ OLIVA: How lung will it take ns get from t~e DEC where the septic systems are 22 located? MR. BRESSLER: HOW long from DEC, as 23 q~ickly as we can. BOAP~D ~.iEi4BER GOEHRINGER: I reviewed the 2e iocumenes, I don't see an actual sure, el- of the propereI. I know we have bins and pieces ef the 2~ survey, and in no way am · refuning Hr_ Suhultheis' credennials, but I don't see a survey July 15, 2004 57 1 2 sf the property; ~ner~'s no~hing that sass there was a snrve? here crea~ed by ans~©dy. 3 HR. BRESSL~R: I think ~here was one with ~he original application_ ~ BOARD M~N~ER GOEHRINGER: Has that changed in any way? 5 ~4R. BRESSLER: The survey has no~ changed. BOARD HEMBER GOEHRINGER: If yen could 6 submi~ a cle~n copy of she survey, I wenid appreciate it, doesn't ~ave ~e be rode!,. 7 MR_ BRESSLER: No problem. BOARD M~MBER GO~HRIN,S£R: Thank you_ 8 ~OARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I ask a couple .sf inore questions? 9 HR. BRESSLER: Please. 8OA~_D M~P~BER DINIZIO: I think we covered 10 pre~y much ~he self-crea~ed part of it. Number 3 on ~he reasons for ute Board's actions is ~he 11 relief requested is substantial; ~hen i~ goes on to say t~e addition is 22_7 fee~ oleser ~han ~he 12 osde requirement; are you building an additicn here or -- 13 HR. BRESSLER: Ne're going up within the building envelope, and ~he enl~~ reason that the 14 nun~.ers are the way they are is because of the 2002 rule. 1~ BOARD MEPdBER DINIZIO: The 22_7 feet that is the nonconformity, so ~o speak, that's the 16 existing nonconfermim/_ This sentence seems indicate ~hat you're Duilding lhat, you're not 17 building that_ MR. BRESSLER: We're alreads, 18 nonconforming_ BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Right_ That 22.7 19 feet existed 10 years ago, and you're not adding eo that. 20 HR. BRESSLER: No. The nonconformity is going to Os, one wa5 of thinking we're going uo be 21 further away from the proper~y line. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm looking at 22 reasons ~ere, going o~.er, trying ne find some iegzc. I guess the benefits soughu by the 23 applicant, some ot~er reason I guess t~at's wha~ Jerr~'s been talking about the other side of 24 house, you're saying, look, I have stuff there_ [,1R. BRESSLER: Righu, I've got cesspools 25 lnandated, I've got underground u~iliuies, and while Nember Goehringer is right, anythinc dul_r 15 200% 58 1 2 uheore~ically can be done, pro,ided the other agencies agree; that isn't always the best way 3 go. And once l-au see the DEC stuff, you'll see other areas are precluded_ e BOARD MEHBER D~N~ZiO= Also considering the amcunt of mono=, you have te spend could be a S hardship and a reason for granting this application. And the uneesirable change, 6 basicalll- this is residential use and I understan{ what Mr. Tutnill said, this is really a huge 7 marina, if you look at it, ~n{ inside ~e have a residential use, which is a lesser use Ehan marine 8 use. MR. BRESShER: It is less in,residue. 9 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Less impact on ~e enYironment and certainly if these people chose 10 live there, they know aOout the noise, and Ehey know it's a busy place and Mr. Tuthill needs to 11 run his business, and they can complain abou~ what t~ey want to complain about, but they knc.~ ~hat 12 it's there and Ehat's ob~rious. That's not a reason for us to deny because Ehey are being kepE 13 e,.~ake bs- Mr_ Tuthill. [,IR_ BRESSLER: I den'~ ~hin]£ so, and in 14 response uo tha~, while you and I may chose not ~o ii e a~ Ehe mouth of the creek where people come lb alid go, nonetheless, it pleases nhe Schultheises to live there and they like it. 16 CHAIRWOM~{ OLIVA: I t~ink if the Board is agreeable, Ehat we could adjourn this hearing 1~ un, il the September meeEing. We have a lob .of information to go through. People have vacaEiens 18 coming up_ We are remanded Es September MR. BRESSLER: ThaE's adjeurne{ for ~he 19 purpose of making Ehe submissions giving ~he Board - 20 CHAIRWOMAN OLivA: And also give us a Eime Ior us to review Hr. Isler's and your responses 21 it, and gives us more time to be more thorough. BOARD SECY-KOWALSKI: We need these 22 suSmissions a week before that meeting so Ehe Board can have it ahead of time and prepare. If 23 you can have i~ Ewe wee~s. MR. BRESSLER: We're closing the 24 Ees~imonial per, ion of ~he hearing? You're going Es entertain further witnesses? 25 '2HAIRWOM2~2[ OLIVe: We don'n like to close it, inaybe you ha,~e something further Es say_ July 15, 2004 59 1 2 HR. BRESSLER: No. I want Es make submissions and my clients are asking me, do I 3 need ~o come back here, and if the answer is we're going to make suOmissiens and gi~.e yen the 4 documents you need, I'm going to tell them, no, the Board will then consider it in due course_ 5 B,S~_D SECY KONALSKI: T~e Board may. still ha~-e questions. 6 I4R. BRESSLER: If the Board feels otherwise, then i'll tell ~hem they have Es be 7 here. CH_%IP. NO~,~ OLIVA: Some of the Board may 8 snill ha,~e questions after they review all the documentation. There's a lot of stuff ~e go 9 through here, and at leas~ for me and Jim too, he has te carefully review everything that has been 10 said en both sides. BOARD HEMBER BINIZIC,: Ruth, in all 11 honesty, I undersCan,2 t~au the Court's decision was we're supposed te base ~his en testimony t~at 12 ='on based it on, chaE the former Board based it on, and I'm perfecclI willing ~o ge through the 13 record_ I would be hesitant to have someone, based on the actions that have happened, ha~e a 14 second bite of the apple, so to spea~, be able to come back in September and add more information 15 than was the subject of the CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Limit it to -- lg ~OARB HEHBER T,DRTORA: We have this already submitted in e~idence. 17 BOARD ME~4BER DINIZIC,: I coul4n't agree with yon more. These are the applicants. These iS are the people who are explaining to us where they wen~, and coming b~ck te you explaining ~heir 19 journey. Any neighbor now that comes in has a second opportunity now, I don'h hhink ~hey {eserve 20 bo do whenever they wish to de, postpone this hearing, come in in SeptemBer an~ sar I need 21 another month. MR. BRESSLER: That's exactly ~he evil I'm 22 crying Es avoid, we'll answer your questions, but ± don't want to go ~hrough another whole reunO 23 here. CHAIRWOI~? OLIVA: Yes, i~ ceul~ be jus~ 24 £imi~ed to the -- ASST TOWN ATTY CORCOR~: i think if you 25 leave ~he hearing open for ~he purposes ,of ~he Board's questions and response for the latest July 15, 2004 60 2 round of submissions_ I.IR. BRESSLER: Fair enough_ The public 3 has had two bi,es aE this and I don't w~nt tc gee 4 CHAIRWC, H_A2~ OLIVA: i agree with you_ NR. BRESSLER: Fair enough. What's the 5 SepEember calendar date? CHAIRWOHAN OLIVA: September 16th. 6 ASST TOWN ATTY CORCORAN: The purpose of ~ha~ is I think ~he Beard wanes Eo be in a 7 position, Hr. Bressler, te cores ~o a resolution a~ EhaE meeting_ 8 MR. BRESSLER: Great, we encourage it. Fhank l oh, ladies and gentlemen. 9 BOrlanD HEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you. CHAiRWOM2~ OLI A~_: Hake a motion Eo keep 10 this meshing open and reconvene on September 16th at 1:,2,0 p.m_ 11 !See minutes for reseluEion., 12 CHAIRWOI~'LA~? OLIVA: Nex~ application is Susan Lomangino for a Horse Farm on Old Hain Rea.t 13 in Mattituck. Beautiful piece of properey_ [.iS. MOORE: Good afternoon, Pat Moore, 14 ~1020, Main Road, Southold. I have with me toda_? Mr. and I4rs. Lomangino_ They're the owners of ~he iS property, and if ~here are any questions thaL cema up, they're here and hepefuiiy we can answer them. 16 This piece of properEy, as %_~eu can see from ~he survey ~hat was submitted ~o you, is 17 ap. proxin-~ateiy 51.7 acres, IE is presenuly being used as a horse farm. Mr. and I4rs. Lomangino live 18 in the house that is .off of Old Hain Road_ in addition Ee their house, uhey also have some 19 accessory buildings. This piece ef preperhy was pare c.f Ehe Husing estate. A liuule biE .of 26, hisuor-g, when hhe? went to cenEract with Mrs. ~u~ng, one of uhe requests thah was made in the 21 will was that the old house th~ was there that iE he used for firematic purposes as a training for 22 the fire department. Pks. Lemangino has always been ~ery involved in Ehe community, wants ~o be a 23 par~ of the community and honored that wish. And nhe house nham was there au uhe ~ime did go 24 Ehrcugh an cenurol burn exercise_ Thau's a little bit of hisEory there. 2S Hrs. Lomangine originally came ~o ~he Building Depar~menE and asked for a building Jul'~ 1~, 200% 61 1 2 permiU for the horse barn. The barn is presenhly there_ It's existing, ant ic's a beautiful 3 facility. Even though the similar, the identical use ~ of a horse farm, one it's a agricultural permitted usa in our zoning code, the fact that ~he Building 5 Departmen~ was concerned about others using it triggered ute review of a special permit for a 6 riding acatem_.,,. The reality is that it is a prira~e barn_ People that come to house ~heir 7 horse, to board their horse have Eo make arrangements with the private o~.,n~er. It's li},~e 8 ever,: other barn in the Town of Southotd and probably on ute north fork, Riverhead included_ 9 2ertainly iE was a bone of con~entic, n caused the s~opping of construction ~,~rv-.- _ several times, buu 10 finally there was an agreement with the Building Department, fine, we'll come in for a site plan, 11 ¥:e' 11 come in with a special permit appiicauion, and here we are. 12 During the course of ~l~e review, i also gave you a modified plan that was delivered to 13 ~.ou. Mr. and Mrs_ Lomangino found that, you know, you build i~, the,_,, will co,ne. As soon as they le built this beautiful facility, they were getting mare and more inquiries by private horse owners Eo iS have their horse boarded. Again, that is a Fermissibie use in our code, but under the gmise 16 ,of a riding acaOemy, s~ables, we're asking that that use be authorized as a special permit. They 17 fsund ~hau very quickly the 10 stalls that ~hey ha,-e now presently inside ute fasiliuy are being, 18 one, filled up by ~heir own heroes which they have 12 horses of their own; there is a request for a 19 1~ additional stalls, which will be in a shed, the shed pop-ou~ that I had given the Board after my 20 original use special permits submission. Li the time thai? said, I see this coming down the line 21 within a year or two, and I said by the time we gee all our permits and approvals, we mighu as 22 wei£ get the application, because the application was earl_~ enough on the process thaU ute site plan 23 re~.iew could go wiuh ute stalls as uhef will ultimately be construcue~. 24 In addition, you have a small viewing area, viewing room, where, when you have riders, 25 children in particular where nhe people ,some in for horse lessons, you might have parents, July 15, 2004 62 1 2 c. bser~ers in the observatory; so that is something r~hat makes seRse, kind ef making the whole use 3 work very well and since it's a new facility, building it Ehe ~,~ay_ it should be rather than 4 piecemeal. So llere we are I','= given you in wriLeen ~ ~esti~r~ony, Ehe standards of a some permit, and believe we've meU all those snandards. Per me 6 repeat ever}~thing tha~ was already in writing, I don't wane co keep you here indefiniEeiy_ ~'N~aE we 7 also wane us point cut is that eventually -- have 51 acres uoday, it is realistic that far 8 !iabiiitl~ purposes e~.entually i~ would make sense for them, since this is new going Es be a riding 9 academy, ~his is a business, setting off the barn on whaEe~er acreage is appropriate at the Eilne, 10 probably 10 acres, more er less, it really will depend what the Planning Board feels is 11 appropriate. There's ne intention presentl_~, but we wane E.D make sure tha~ you ha~e it in the back 12 of :,our mind when you're granting tile special permit uhat you don't inadveruenEly wriue iu in 13 such a way that we have to mainEain 51 acres in crier to have this special permit be in force. Ne 14 ?,~ant to be sure that you know right frc, m the onset uhat ~he reality is tha~ ~his structure shc. uld be 15 set off in ius oval parcel_ -~_~'~ I said, for liability purposes. 16 And i apologize, my clien~ didn'~ realize ehau he needed seven prints ef all the 17 photographs. I will ge~ you additional prinEs after uhe hearing. 18 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: You would need 10 acres a~ least wi~h Ehat horse barn? 19 MS. MOORE: Yes, for pracEicai use, 10 ecres, so if you wish to make it as a condiEion of 2,0 ~he special permit. i have several pictures, and what I'll de 21 is i've labeled them en the ]pack, numbered and I'1i just describe them on the record, and I'll 22 presen~ ~hem all as a packet. The first picture which I ~houghE was a very nice picture ?~as a 23 picEere of the inside of the barn righ~ now where Ehe s~aiis are_ i joke with the ciien~ if i were 2% ~s die and cema back as a horse, I would wan~ lire on Yhese properties because these animals 2S li~e better ~han some humans, it's a beau~ifui facility and I'm sure you made ,,-our inspection and J~ly 15, 2005 63 1 2 atmired it as I have. The entrance, ~hey put on an entrance ~hat 3 is cer~ainlI befitting of the quality of the faciliuy that they wish to have. It's net a 4 slap-dab barn_ it's a lovely - C~AIRWO~L~2~ OLIVA: 1~ is a Horbsn S building? MS. MOORE: It's a Morton pre-fab 6 kuil~ing, correct. The inside is customize~. It's go~ sta£is that are not t~pical horse stalls. / They also added a feature whic~ Oecause of the special permit request, our ads, ice was to put in a 8 fire alarm system that would trigger an automatic alarm te the firehouse. It's actually been 9 installed. It is net required far ~he purposes ef a barn to get a CO for personal use, but we 10 thought that gi,~en the Board is being asked to gran~ a special permit for tecnnically a 11 commercial use that this ad,aa feature, whether the BearO would impose it or we would 12 ~oluntarily, it made sense Es ~o it nonetheless_ Se I have additional photographs in 13 there, Out the west siae, you see east, west, north, we have all the sides, including t~e 14 inside_ If you would look at Pho~ograph 5, you see at the ver~~ top it was right after it ha~ ~een 15 installe{, there's a ladder that shows the alarm system that is up nigh, obviousl~~ for the heat, 16 i~'s triggered bs- heat. There is a pull switch, se it's an emergency pull switch. It also has 17 sensors and in the event of a fire, the fire ~epartmen~ will be notified immediately. 18 These are very valuable animals and they're like family ~eEs, se the fact that there's 19 human activity, it's nee so much t~e human activity but the animals Ehemselves that should be 20 protecteO. Ail the elevations are here. We 21 emergenc~' exi~ signs that have been installee inside, that's Photograph lb, which shcws ~ha~. 22 There's also a fire sensor and switch in the bathroom; there's a photograph .~ith lovely horse 23 iecals, that's the bathroom, it's Photograph 1%, and that shows you again tnau there is a fire 2e suppression ~larm in the bathroom. So that if someone's in there there is an alarm. On t~e 25 c. utside of the building there's red boxes, i~'s Photograph 13. 3id lots an~ lots of pictures of July 1S, 2004 1 2 the fire suppression syste~, ~hey're very proud of the fire suppression s~stem because it is stoee ,of 3 the art, a Hagnum Fire Alert system, and it was done like everything else here, first class. I'1i % submit those photographs for 5. our record , handing.~ . ~ I'm here to answer any questions and the owners are here te answer any questions, i think 6 we've touched en or I've touched en some of ~he salien~ points regarding some of the special 7 features of this special permit. BOAR~ MEMBER GOEHRING~R: Can I? S C~L'i_IRWOP~I OLIVA:,~ ahead. B,DARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Moore, i 9 was a~va~ so I haven't been inside the buildings. i would like uo reserve ~he righ~ ~o ,come down and 10 take a look_ IdS_ MOORE: Please de. 11 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The major portion ef the building is what we refer to as the 12 horse arena; is it not? NS. HOORE: When ,~ou ge inside the 13 building there's a floor plan. i ha~e the bottom of the plan, the ledger down at the bottom 14 right, so we're facing the same direction. What is existing today is where i~ she,~s ~ack room, the 15 area down at the sou~h end, the bottom of the drawing; are you looking at it the same way I am? 16 The bottom there are the horse stalls that are presently there. And we have a photogroph tha~ I 17 submitted that shows the deuaiief the horse suails uhau are individualized stalls made ef oak 18 s~alls with cement footings and sand with a rubber base. Nha~ you chon do the entrance inEo the 19 larger exercise area, which is ~he ridi~g rink, ic's non like a car race track, it is an open area 20 with a very chick layer ef sand and the horses -- imogine the horses you see in like pictures in 21 Disne/ films, I think of like Black BeauCy where they're practicing ena line and the horses are 22 exercising and the trainer is standing in the .center, and the horse is on the long run are 23 exercising around the stable. So chat area, the space is dimension-wise, if I could find it, 186, 24 b_, 120 -- the rink is 100 b!J 180 is the exercise area, and in that area you could have students 25 practicing, you ha~e ~hem going in a circle learning how to ride, or you can have =~_=~i~= of July 1S, 2004 65 1 2 the horses_ So it's an open area with very high roof line_ There are skylighns throughout the 3 building for natural light and interior lighting for dus]~- type of exercise. % BO~A=U.D [~E~,{BER GOEHRINGER: i ~hink the reason of my cfuesEion is since the arena is 5 already existing, regardless if it's used for an arena or exercise room, which are one and the same 6 thing from an equestrian point, differen~ uses a~ iifferent ~imes, is there any anticipation of the ~ construction of an additional arena on this site at this time within this 10 acre parcel? 8 ~,lR. LOM~TGIN0 Absolutely not. IdS. HOOP. E: A~soluteiy net from them. 9 Phis has been a major investment. That is not the ~lan. The horse stalls, when you go to see the 10 pr~p=rtI ,~u 11 see there are paddocks all throughout. The horses that are uhere exercise 11 ant use uhe balance ef the property, i~'s ,~er, natural, B0 acres, it's probably one of the 12 iargese uracus. Plus, adjacen~ to this Peconic Land Prust er Nature~ens~r,.~nc;, acquired a huge 13 tract, which also serves as pare of the open space for trails and so on. Sometimes !-ou do haye 14 people using ~hose trails, bikers, mountain bikers using nhe ~rails and actually they found that they 15 ~-end te come onto ~he property and ask for bathrooms for emergency use. Fhey have actu~ll~ 16 had per~a pottl/ -- during construction the porta potty that's been out ~here is well used_ Did I 17 answer your question? BO2~_D MEMBER GO~HRINGER: Yes. The last 18 issue is this came up once before on a buildin~l that was not constructed in this town, what about 19 adequate security? MS. MC, ORS I'm glad ~eu= ~ asked uhat. 20, [.ir Hickei? lives righu across tt~e street and Hr. Hickey is -- 21 CHAIRWC,?,'kZ2.I OLIVA: Ever vigilant. MS. MOORE: He's our neighborhoed watch. 22 He also feeds the horses as far as carrots. I understand he gets great vegetables from the horse 23 manure. He can attest Eo that. They have received a great deal of support from the 24 neighbors here, and Hr. Hickey is prime example of someone who loves what he sees there and the use 25 ef the property_ And he actually pro,~ides the se,ck~rz~v. You also have the owners that are, July 15, 2004 2 whether it's on a 10 acre EracE or it's part of ~heir overall parcel, they live right there. And 3 tha~ was a real cenfiic~ in the householt en wheEher or not Ee even open Ehis up, call it a 4 riding academy. You have people that come on and is's your private property. So they are very 5 selective in their invitations ~o the proper~y, to nhe owners ~ha~ stable 5heir horses Ehere. So 6 it's a very select, very controlled environmenE. BOf~iD MEMBER GO~HP_INGER: I just realized, 7 Mrs_ Moore, of course, the o~her problem I ha.~e is ~hat m/self and my wife own Ewo coneiguous houses 8 ~c. Ehis_ MS. MOORE: I don't know thaE you' re S, contiguous. I think Ehe Peconic -- you're ac5uaiiy not adjacent 5e it_ ion have Ehe open, 10 the acquisiEion, so I don't think you're disqualified from voting because you're in the 11, ieinity, and I'm sure in many insEances anl appiicaEion is in the vicinity of any one ef you 12 so you' re hoe adjacent. BOARD I4EMBER GOEHRiNGER: I' m non 13 contiguons you mean? MS_ MOORE: Right. 14 CHAI RWON[A2.} OLIVA: Lydia? BOARD MEMBER TORTOPA: No questions_ 15 CHA I RWOI%h2.[ OLIVA: Jim? BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Ne, i like yoklr 16 fire alarm system, I'm in the business_ is there a suppression system here, is there water when Ehe 17 alarm goes off and water comes down? [',iS . MOORE: No . 18 BOARD HENSER DiNiXIO: It's net a fire suppression sysUem, it's a fire alarm. 19 HS. HOORE: I'm sorry, I misspoke. ~O~,RD f~IEHBER GOEHRII.TGER: AE this - ~ 20 noticing mhe eno picture /ou have hay above several ef the stalls; is thaE normally where 21 hay is stored? MS. ~IOOR~: I5's right ~here for the 22 horses. But take a look when you go inside yo~u'll see that 5he roof line pitches way up se you're 23 actually 30 or %0 fee~. The stalls, imagine an office space winh partisions. The sLalls are 24 somewha~ mobile. They can be placed anywhere, 5hey're in place right now, bus Ehey are taking up 25 a portion of the buiidin9 in i~s fixed position. BC,ARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank Jul~~ 15, 2004 67 1 2 C~IRWO~,tAN OLi'YA: I don't have an5, .~uestions_ it's a beautiful place and I wish them 3 much luck with it. Is there anybody in the audience .,,ishes to speak for or against this 4 application? MR. HICKEY: Jim Hickey, Old Main Roat in ~ Mattituck. I live directly across the stree~ and a little hisuery, I was born in Hineola. i lived 6 eno block from the Mineola Fairgrounds, which used to be she Queens-Nassau Agricultural Society_ As 7 a child I gre~ up working over there in the barns, the,~ stabled s~andard bred horses and they r~ised 8 ~hem a~ Roosevel~ Field. And my grandfather was she ~iliage Dl~cksmitn in Mineeia on Jericho 9 Turnpike in the 1890s_ So I go way back. ~nd I'm ,~ery grateful that Miss Lomangine took title to 10 u~at properny, Miss Husing, because Miss Husing was a great neighbor and the property is still 11 like iu al,,,ays was, and it's going to remain that way. So I'm one hundred percent for it_ 12 As far as security, I had a guy ~ewn the road arrested. He shot a fox t~ere one morning 13 ~own range from me, and he's lucky i didn't have my revolver on me 'cause I would ~aye returned the 14 fire. He ga~e me lip so I immediately calleo conservation, signed a deposition, and it wen~ lb from there. He was arresteO. So I thin~ I know a little about security. I ,as a police officer for 16 30 years. CHAIRW,Z,MI~2~ OLIVA: Thank you, 17 Mr_ Hicks?. Is there anybody else in the audience that wishes ~o spea~? Yes, ma'am_ 18 MS. GAMBLE: My name is Marion Gamble, I li,~e directly, 2%5 Bray Avenue, directly behind 19 ~he Lemangino horse arena. First of all, I wane ~o say, ute grounds and e~erything there is 20 beautiful. It's immaculate. The barn is lovely. My big problem is I think they're putting the 21 manure Es ~he back, and I cannoE open my windows in my kiucnen, dining room area, which makes iu 22 kind of sticky because Ina, e a handicapped husband and a handicapped deughLer anO Es have 23 central air condiLiening, we cannot afford it, so we have Es open ~he windows once in a ~,,hile. And 24 I would .only like to reqhes~ that they move the storage of manure, which is natural with ~he horse 2b f~rm and ever2thing, but ~o move i~ a~ leas~ southeasu, where there is more property space July, 15, 2004 68 2 between the manure and homes. Now my neighbor also asked me, she couldn'n come, and that is tile 3 Riohard McGill family, to address the same thing_ We have ne prebiem with the horse arena, the horse 4 barn farm_ We love animals. It's fine, it's beautiful, but this does deter us from having our S ~,.~indows open in ~he nice weather and/or outside to ea:. I didn't even put ally lawn furniEure out 6 because it is impossible and she is the same way. BOARD M~NI~R TORTOPfe: Hrs. Moore, maybe 7 '_,.mu ought to make your clien: aware than the code prohibits outdoor stock piling of manure. That 8 ~..ould solve that problem_ MS_ MOORE: I thilik you can't have manure ~ within a certain distance of a proper~I line_ MS. LOP~i{GINO: We have a landscaper that 10 ~,.e call in and he comes i~ and he charges us, and he's removed it. It was s~eckpiled over ~here, 11 but if ysu ge and look, he removed it. You're probably 9olEg to get some smell from ute horses, 12 and we will make sure that we don't stock_pile an,Twheze near there. As a matter of fact, it's 13 stockpiled on the far end of the property. NS. GAMBLE: I'm on Bray Avenue, I can see Pis. LONAi~INu: Co,ne in one day and i'11 15 sllow /au where we put MS. GAt~BLE: I c~ s~ it_ That's the 16 cniz objection we have. If you could mo~..e further over. ii MS. HOC, R~: For the record, if you ever ha-~e anybody that has a complaint about something 18 like that, they are always there, and the'~ are ~.ery 2encerned about that kind ef problem. 19 all means, have them call, you don't ha~e te go te code enforcement, I know people don't usually like 20 to bother other neighbors and confront it. [,IS. ~}ivIBL~: No. Ns're vezv pleased with 21 what that land has been used for_ Like i said, just mo~e it over_ Thank you. 22 ~L'P. IRN~[IA2{ OLIVA: Anybody else that wishes to speak for or against this application? 23 If net, I'll ma~_e a motio~l closing the hearing and reserying decision until later. 24 ,:See minutes for resolution_ I 25 ,2HAiRWOHAN OLI\~: Next hearing is David and Patricia Berwald, for a studio in their garage Jul-:' 15, 2004 69 1 2 plus a ,deck en ~_qua¥1=w Drll~e, East Marion. P~S. HOORE: This application as you can 3 see, ~he owners went in ~o the Building Department and soughE ~o de some alterations Eo an e×isting 4 .garage. The alterati.ans, what ~hey ~ried ~e explain to the Building Department was tha~ -- and 5 none of these struceures were ,.ariances, I don't e.=ll~.~ SO, I ~hink it was the concern was 6 use. they_ kep.~ insisting that i~ was a dw~lling,~ ~he}~ being nhe Building Department, ~he owners 7 said ~e, I'm not pu~mng a kitchen; I'm putting a small ~oLiet-bauhroom, I am an artist, and I just $ wane so,ne space ~o do my ca~'~ call it a hobby because she is an artist prefessionaliy -- bu~ her 9 own personal art, pain~ing hobby, I hate to insult mn ~r~ by calling iEa hobby. Nothing Lhat 10 the'=~ did could convince the Building Department ~hat i~ is noE a dwelling. So they issued a 11 no,ice ef disapprevai and here ~hey are_ IE is an existing garage. Because of the 12 height requirements in the second floor space, there has Eo be a dormer. And the house is a Long 13 Island Sound front parcel, so iE makes absolute sense to open up ~o gee natural iighu ~nd to put. a 14 lit&~le deck area so on the beautiful Oars you cai1 paint out, side instaad of inside that space. As 15 you can see o~ the survey, but aise if you wen~ te see ~he property, uhe house is very modest_ I~'s 16 a teeny li~Eie, 22 by 36 bungalow and some day they hope Eo improve upon it but right now uhe 11 budget only allows for small dormer on the garage. That's all the_z wanE. 18 CHAIRWOH.~i'~ OLIVA: Do you have a ,20 for the .garage? 17 ~.IS. I~IOORE: Yes. That was obtained. The!~' boughz Oho proper:y and the ee for ~he garage was 20 obtained by ute prior owners. BOARD SECY KOW}ISKI: Could you give us a 21 c.c. ps'? I.~£. M,DORE= Sure. Do you have any 22 qnestions? I~'s somewhat disturbing it would be nide if the Zoning Board would give some guidance 23 ~o the Building Department that when you put a bathroom in a garage, it's no~ a d.~,~elling. BOARD ~iEMB}iR TOP, TORA: it's not a garage 25 Ellen. NS. HOC, RE: if iE houses }.-our car, iL's a JulI' 15, 2004 7O 1 2 ~arage, and many time~ j~s~..b~cause you're a female artist doesn't mean that you ~on't have 3 hoh~z=s. If you were a male tinkerer of cars., you might ±~ave your own little workshop. So all 4 throughout town it~ ~ ~?~ic~i use is using your garage an~ a little extra space. b BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: Are there cars in it now? 6 NS. HOORE: Yes. The firsu fleor is completely open for cars. Because when I was 7 ~here ~here ,ere no cars there, it's funny because I ha{ the same reaction when I saw it. 8 They opened the garage doors, I went, oh, les, this is tefini~el2 a garage. It nas nice windows 9 Oecause the prior owner used nicer windows to try te match the style, kind ef improve upon, net make 10 it quite so severe as a garage. Bu~ the space inside, i will swear, I've gene inside it, it has 11 a garage floor, sleD. CHAIRWOMAi[ OLIVA: I saw that_ 12 HR. BER~LD: I'm storing mI- lawn and boat e~uipmenE nhere_ 13 MS. HOORE: It has an open woo{ staircase going ~p uo ~he second story. IE requires a 14 iormer. BOARD HEHBER TORTORA: Is this going te be lb heating? MS_ MOORE: Yes_ Probably you nee.i some 16 kin{ ef electric heat_ CMAIRWOM~,i OLIVA: What kind of heat? 17 MR. BERNs~LD: Electric. BOARD MEMBER TO±~TORA: ~hat t~e of 15 plumbing? MS. NOORE: Half bath plumbing, toile~, 19 sink CE%IRWON~3I OLIVA: dim? 20 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: i grew u~p in this area, so I had relati~es ~hat lived next door for 21 a while. It's a Oeautiful view_ I have no objection. £ can understand the confusion as far 22 as having a teile~, but i also understand that Eha~ doesn't ma~e a ~welling, 5ou know maybe we 23 should interpret it them way. MS. P[OORE: The coGe sa,~s a Kitchen ma~es 24 a dwelling_ A bathroom does not make a dwelling it's an independently living unit. 2b BOARD MEHBER DINIZIO: You're not expanding anything other than that little ~eck. I July IS, 2004 71 1 2 wish you all the luck in the world. Thank yc, u. ,2 HA I RW,Z.N%'-'2~ 0 L I VA: L y.i i a ? 3 BC,ARD M~HBER TORTO~A: I den'~ have any ~uest zens. .% CHAIRNO~,t~2{ OLIis~: Jerr5 ? ~P.~ MEIqBER ,~OEHRIN,~ER: Se the dormer is 5 uhe only thing u~ha~ has ~o be placed en here? MS. MOORE: The dormer goes ever as par~ 6 of -- i~'s a full-leng~h dormer over the top of ~he existing g~rage because. Otherwise you go up 7 and the ceiling heigh~ is five [eet. It's ebou~ five feeE, the rafters are abou~ five feet, it 8 needs the dormer te pep out ~o nL~e rig[~u height. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: WhaE kind of 9 resuricnion de we put en iu, noE necessarily for ~his owner hue for subsequenE owners? 10 BOARD HEHBER TORTORA: It's difficulE because the one we did euu in Greenporn, we did 11 ~he arEist's studio, which two monEhs later they turned around and sold as a ~we-family house. And 12 ~t ,as ac~uall,~ marketed and advertised EhaE way in the paper, despite the fact that they 13 represenEed ~o us tha~ iE was merely ar~ arEisE's s uudio. 14 MS. MOORE: I think ~he Building Depar~menU could place condiEiens ena C ef O. lB Ti~at's Ehe place ~o do.i~. They could do iu rouniuely. I think iu would solve the problem 16 universaiiz~ in this bDwn if the Buildin9 E. epar~men~ jus~ said art studios are n.s.~ a Se~.RD NEH~ER ,~OEHRINeER: Not hebi~able_ 18 BOARD M~M~ER TORTOP~e: TLley did that ir~ this particular case. 19 HS. MOORE: Tb~en you have a violation and ysu'ra beck here. You can'E prurient ~,ic. lauions, 20 in's like preventing murder. You can ha~ e severe consequences but people will ki]i each otb~er 21 anywa}. Same wiuh zoning_ BO!~_D HEMBER GOEHRINGER: i don't know if 22 ~hat analogy is correct_ ~C,ARD MEMBER TORTORA: I just wish ~here 23 were some way because we all -- I'm going back this one in .Sreenpor~ - we all sau here and 2% extremely sy~pa~heEic because ~he man wan~ed a second story_ He wanned a bach in Ehere Secause 2B he didn't want ~o have L,o walk back to ~he raain house; alit iF~ poinE of fact, we were schnookerei 72 1 2 all the way ~own the road, and they even had the aniacit:- ne put this ad in the newspapers. 3 NS. MOORE: That's not always the owner, ~hat may be the real estate broker. I'v6 run 4 aeross many of those ¢~here people have come to me ant say the real estate broker put that, that's S what it was, and I'm like, no, that's not wha~ it is. People get heodwinked all the time and then 6 Ehev corae back bo you and giyen the right circumstances - 7 B,~P.E i4EMBER I,~RT~R=.: That wa~ my concern, that ~here was some way tie a~ert -- 8 BOP~_D ~'{EMBEP GOEHRINGER: You have to look at the one on Ceuntv Read %8 wi~h Ehe gelitieman 9 ~hat wan~ed zhe library ~o bring his law books cut. So leu's look ah uhat decision. Ot~ the 10 sound, same situation. ,2H~±RWOI~N OLIVA: Years ago we dii 11 f Iaryanne I.'Ioo r e. HS. HOORE: This is becoming an artisE's 12 haven. BOAP. D MEMBER DiNIZIO: He movet to 13 Chicago. NS. MC, ORE: Amother artist will follow. 14 We're willing to do whatever's reasonahie to assure you this is an artist's s~udio, private 15 studio. [.'IS. BERWALD: May i sa,:, something? I' m 16 Patty Berwald, I'm a graphic designer, but I'm a fine aruist by training. I want to paint_ I'm 50 17 years eld. I'm coming towards my retirement, and I would like te live ouE en this property some 18 day, i really would. We boug-h~ i~ wi~h great effort of our own, my husband and I, nc, have uhis 19 freedom Eo relax and enjoy Ehe beach and Greenporh. HY aunt has been in Greenport for many 20 years and she's the one who sold us the preperti'. I'm there to paint_ I'm there te hake pictures. 21 if _~ou know the area and you ~£now our bluff, I'm sure you can see how Yhat would be just a perfect 22 place no relax_ Ne just bought this property :'ear and outr inuen~ion is to retire out here, at~d 23 nc, fini a ~ay ~o live here not to sell ~he preperz!. IE's a tiny space really. Ali I really 24 s~eed, i~'s like 17 by 21 wi~h some light and a place uo move outside. I just want to let you 25 know that my inhenEion is very much aesthenic, and I would like to have uhis space because my house July IS, 206,4 1 2 is so small, and ~his is really why I came out l~ere I'm a ~risual person, we love to s,~im. I 3 z-eall., want to use this extra place for a very simple and recreational reason. I jusY want. ed to % le~ you kno,~ that I hope to always have ~his house and not te sell it. I love the area and i would 5 like to feel welcomed here anS be comfortable like arr_?b o d ~ else_ 6 CHAIRWON~'~ OLIVA: Wi~h no further questions, I'1i make a motion ne close ~he Nearing 7 and reserve decision until ia~er. (See minutes for resolution.) uLI¥~_: Next applicaEion ~s 9 I~a~apie. IE's about thau garage that we didn'~ ~cnow whau iu was going ~o loo]~- like_ Is ~here 10 anybody here who would like to speak on this application? 11 MR. }2[DERSON: Bruce Anderson,, Suffolk Environment als _ 12 CHAiRWO[~AZ{ OLIVA: I'm dying ~o know how they're going to go into thaE garage, Bruce, 13 ~2, ecause ef the elevations there. hR. ~_NDERsON: Just a couple of quick 14 ~uesEioms. Number 1, the zoning application is before 5ou in writing and you can see thaL; 15 big question here te me, I would thi~k if I ,~ere you is, and of course, ~he relief we seek here is 16 [io place a detached garage between a dwelling and a road where a detached garage is supposed to go 17 in Ehe rear yard. Em~cepE if you're on a waterfront parcel, which is precisel? what we have 18 _across r. he s~reeE, if you',~e been Eo ~e area, a detached garage between uhe house and Ehe road. 19 If you Nave also been there, l. eu realize n~e entire properYy excepu for where the strucEures 20 are, the house, the pooi, e~ cetera, is ~reed, se ~he piacemenn ef this garage is done in a way so 21 r_hat nc. more than eno, perhaps two trees ha~,e cema down. That's why we proposed it in a 22 iocaEion where we have proposed it. And I ~hink theE's a beneficial result, u~fortunateiy we need 23 a zoning variance ue de it_ Having said all that, EhaE garage woulcl be 2~ 81 feet from Ehe road, which is far in excess ,of ?~-ha~ the front yard setback is for this particular 25 ]ct, in fac~, it's about twice what's resfuirei here. And there's ne doubE eluaE if ~te 9arage July~ 15, 74 1 2 were .connected to the house it would become paru sf the principal structure and we wouldn't even be 3 before you. Of course, to do that would involve a Eremendeus amount of site disEnrbance, a % ~remendous amount of construction. It would, in my opinion, detrac~ from the cl~ality of the 5 neighborhood_ The zoning reasons given i~ the 6 applications, specifically in ~he addendum i ~hink speak for uhemselves, but iu is critical for me ue ? unders~_and wh5~ the ~arage i~ ~hat lecatioi~. If we were Eo put ute garage behind the pool, ,,ye would 8 not be here_ However, if you look at the setbacks between the house and the side let line, ~he 22 9 feet -- 15 feet on one side, 25 feet en ~he ether side and realize that thaE too is heavily treed, 10 you would actually be imposing upon your ~eighbor in putting a garage in that location, in fact, E 11 sEoke to ?,Irs_ Crowlec, I believe, whose property e?~Eends ~o Lot 310, ?,,hich you see on Ehe bottom of 12 ~he survey, to explain that her inuerest has been, it seemed te me, te maintain the weeded character iI ef tha~ site. So this application does ~ha~. ~he si~ing of this garage in this slope 1~ requires a grade manipulation, which is shown on ~he survey. Then alss it's somewhat recessed on 15 the south side as you ge up the hill, which accounLs for the reLaining wall and the sn-~ail set 16 of s~airs. So there would be a flattened area for which r. he garage can be sited. That's why Ehose 17 ,changes are shown on the survey. I'[hat's left is also dr.'s placed in such a way Ee ~tilize the 18 existing driveway. So we don'E P~ave to Eear up a driveway, clear more Erees to create a new 19 driveway, thereby also detracting from the neighborhood_ 2,8 That is really what this is all about, iet is jusE. that simple, and I weuid argue iE's a good 21 projecn, even though we have a ~echnical problem with zsning, because in is between uhe house and 22 ~he read, aluhough double what Ehe setback would he in ~his particular zeno given ~he size of this 23 lot, we request Ehe locaEion of a detached garage where we requested for those reasons, and we thiz~k 24 they're good enough reasons support the granting efa variance_ 25 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Ruth, can I ask a quesEion? July lg, 2,2,0% 7S 1 2 ~_Hs. IRNOM}2~ OLIVA: Sure. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Bruce, I have to 3 tell you ~hat you have come across ~itl~ so,ne really in,erecting applications, hue Ehis one has =' got me going, why a basement in a garage? ~.~R. Ai~DERSON: Very simple, Francois ~ La~apie is a restaurateur, owns a couple restauranEs in New Yorkuzt~,~,~' - and he wishes ~hat 6 space in Ehe cellar ~e stere wine. BOARD MBMBER GOEHRiNGER: Why ~he unheated 7 anuic area_ There's enough blauancy e~ uaking ~his building euU of Ehe required rear yard and placing it in a fron~ yard an.i now building i~_ I realize uhat's a geed portion of Ehat basemenE is a goir~g ~o be in the groulld, hue some of i~ may be existing en the road side. Now we're placing iE 10 two s~ories up on an uneven surface, the slope of a hill. I can buy the basemen~ area, buE I,~n^- 't 11 buy Ehe second sUory area. And you know, the minute you deal with Ehau second story, ..... ~= z= now 12 ~aiking the only way to produce something like ~ha~ and for this Board ~e address i~, in my 13 opinion is substanEial screening, screening thaE ?;ill cost $25,000 because each one of mhose 14 arborvitae are $1,000 a piece, 18 fee~ high. f~md i don't knew wha~ iE's going ~o lc. ok like. 15 NIR_ 3I,IDERSON: I~et me pu~ i~ Es you Ehis way: Nhen we se}' screening, end you're Eaiking 16 ahouL ~he height, and we agree EhaE i~ does cempl5 wi~b Ehe heigh~ ordinance, nhe point is you're 17 putting i~ in an area thaE's dominated by ma~ure, uail oak ~rees. 18 BOARD HET',IBER GOEHRINGER: But ~c,u're going Es ha~.e ~o reserve the right to look ah the 19 screening of Ehis, if Elle Beard is so inclined ~o 9rant the application as it is applied for_ And i 20 ,mean, the earth tone figures, we're not here ~c iesign ~our bnilding, bu~ it's gee ~o be earth 21 tcned out to the Nth degree so it dees~'t stand cue like a sore thumb or~ the side of thee siepe. 22 CCHAIR~[O±,Lm~ OLIZA: It's high, Bruce, 1U'10r' ho the midpoinE. ~,~ NfR. i:2,iDERSON: Ne have spen~ a grea~ deal of Eime ~aiking abou~ the garage, m,~self ani the 2% appiican~. We have spen~ some amounE cf ~ime uaiking ab.suE ~he basemenE, s~orage ef %,zinc, whieh 25 I ~hink i.s fine. Ne have spen~ no time ~alking abou~ thee a~Eic space. July iS, 2,104 76 1 2 BOARD HEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let's get rid of 3 HR. AI~ERSON: I thought what you might as~ me is would you accept alternative relief. 4 }~d I think where you're going with it -- your fear, and I can understand what ~'ou're saying, is 5 on the down slope side i~',s going to look bigger than on the up slope side, I think thaE's what 6 you're saying. That's a true statement. I have heard nothing from the client, we haven't 7 discussed i~ because frankly it didn't occur Ed me. I'm more concerned about the placement of 8 ~a~ structure en the let wit~ regard te the trees that are on that lot, but that really should 9 suggest to you very clearly that the intent here is to save as man5, trees as possible because the 10 structure with the height, the whole.thing could ~o in t~e rear yard except that you basicall-~ have 11 to destro,, tRe property to do iE and you would Se infringing upon your neighbors, if you wish, 12 2an ask ~hat question to ~he clien~ because sure it's a storage issue. I'm sure, it doesn't 13 necessarily have to be eight feet high er whatever it is, I don't think that's critical te the needs, 14 Out I can certainly give that. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You can create 15 the same aesthetics and create t~e same gambrel roof line by {ropping that gambrel roof line down 16 ant integrating it down into that first story abo~.e ~e window area, an~ still crea~e a 17 bit of storage up above, and to~allv lower t~at buildin9 so it doesn't have to be significantly 12 screened. FIR. ~2,iDERSON: I agree with that. 19 CMAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I agree with that_ MR. ANDERSON: I don't knew standing ~ere 20 h©w much. BOARD HEHBER GOEHRINGER: Five feet at 21 least, five er six. CHAIRWC, M}i,~ OLIVA: To the ridge i~ 22 doesn't say. It's got to Se well ever 20 feet, Bruce. 23 HR. A[~ERSON: Tha~ could probably work jus~ looking at the exterior elevation. 24 CHAIRWO[~Z~2{ OLiVA: Then it wouldn't be so ~isible from the road either, and Oarrv's right, 25 you wouldn'~ na~.e to pu~ so much screening in Jul,,- lb, 200% 77 1 2 MR. }i,IDERSON: Nhen T leek at the sereeni~g issue, my personal feeling is because 3 !-cu have the -- don't forget you' re going up the sispe, obviously ~he trees town b,~ the road are 4 somewhat lower than it is ~rees on tt~e top of ~he hill. I think probabl/ tNe adequate screenJr~g S here wo~i~ be more of a shrub-t~:~pe screening. B~RD NEI',I~ER GO~tiRTNGER: We have to see 6 what the building looks like. I,LP.. ANDERSON: We can certai~ly come back 7 and show you. If we can do it, we're happy Eo do it. I can't tell you why we can't standing here, 8 but I h~ve uo ~alk to the applicant about it_ I could also propose some shrub plan~i~gs and gl: e 9 ?ou a Yisual look if thae's someuhing Lhat would be helpful_ 10 ,2PLaiRNOPL?~2,i C, LIVA: Good. L%rdia, ilave any {ues~ier~s? 11 BOARD N[EHBER TORTOP_~_: CHAIRNOMAN OLIVA: Jim? 12 BOARD P~IEMBER DiNIZIO: t doli't know, just seen-~s to me this is more work for Bruce, nee tl~at 13 i don't wane _you to have the work, Bruce, it seems like 80 feeu away from the road you're proposing 14 To. puc a garage; how far are i,,ou away frsm the Neuse? iS NR_ }2,IDERSON: Ne have sited this ~hing basically below an e×is~ing parking area. 16 BOARD [~[EHBER DiNIZIO: [,lot exactly, 100 feet, 20,,2, feet? 17 MR. Ai,[DERSON: No, 55 feet. Bi, ARB PIEMBER DINIZiO: 55 feet, if 18 built a 55 foot addition to Lhis house you .seuld still go another 80 feet_ 19 NR. ANDERSON: Thau's right. I could build a Lunnei. 20, B,s~RD I':[EHBER DINiZIC,: No. You have to have a strucEk~re with a roof on it, you have to 21 call it living space, you can't call it a breezeway, buu certainly you can do all tha~ and 22 doesn't even have to be before us_ MR. ?.~3IDERSON: That' s right. 23 BOARD NIEMBER DINIZiO: That's my commen~. MR_ 32.1DERSON: The weakness of the 24 applica~.ion, i~,ou co-uld do lots of things here, you .{;ould uear ~he house down and buil.i a mansion, I 2~u see a lo~ of ~hat going on .sue there. So this is a way of doing semethi~g utah's small, hopefuii-? July 15, 2004 78 1 2 tasteful, relatively reasonably cost, alLhough not .2heap, and it's a way Eo sort of maintain the 3 residential character, te de that I need a ,~ariance. '4 CHAIRWOk~2~ OLI\~.: Bruce, I think we would appreciate if you came back with new 5 drawings and five foot smaller, screening_ HR. D1JDERSON: We'll leo~ at in_ if we 6 can't do iL, I will give you a reason. Tidal may ns5 be a problem to %he applicant, I simp£y don't 7 know_ BOARD SECY KOWALSKI: }~gust 19th, would 8 be okay with you then. }dR_ 2~2,?DERSON: We may jus~ do Lne ~ schematics for you. Obviously it has ~o be dot~e hy an engineer, I can give l~ou someLhing Lhat will 10 look jusL as good as this, and i ha?e 5o talk to the client abou5 iE, ebvieusl5. 11 CHAIRWOMAN OLios!a: Nlrs. Jakarusso? HS. JAPi~RUSSC,: I'm Johanna dakarusso_ 12 am 25 feet from Ehis proposed addiEien, and I 5hin~ I represen5 a long 5ime resident. I have 13 ~een on Breakwaters Road now since 1983. I ~a~e sa5 here since 1:00 and I have listened to people 1% Laik about the character of neighborhood, ~he freedom to enjoy, and hoc, the code ef Southeld 15 should aim for tRe higher standard, and ne~.,, you have spoken about granEing an ar~isL permission te 16 }2uil.i something L~aE two months laLer he turned around and sold as Lwo separaLe antilles. M-~ 17 neighbor Mr. LaLapie, who I don't e?en Enow who he is, already has a E~,,e-car garage aEtsched to his 18 house. This proposed addiLion would be 25 feet from my house, and it would be a terrible eyesore, 19 a tetrac~ion to the character of our neighborhood, which is a family neighborhood; and the noise 20 level because of this oleg. aLien, if he cheeses to bring in things ether Lhan cars, woulO be 21 phenomena£ because iL already is He wants to pul it in t~e back, tibet's what the zoning raj-s, 22 thaa's what should be dena, but Oon't ask Ehe rest of us who ii~-e in the neighborhood 5o suffer 23 ~ecause he chooses Lo do something Lna~ he calls a garage and may Eurn out to be an 2% apartmen~ le~'s be honest. He's pu~Ling in a s~ower. He's puLLing in a wine cellar Lhat could 2b be conver~ed to a kitchen. I~ Ooesn't ~elong there_ It destrovs the whole character of the Jui~, 15, 2004 79 2 neighborhood. Thank !~ou. HR. Ai,IDER~ON: If I may? Understand, tha~ 3 ~he space will be unheaued. Undersuand, it is not Ee be used as a residence. It is no~ designed 4 that way. I~ is designed in a way ~haE would be mor~ difficult to go down that read ~han the 5 appiiea~ion you just looked at, more difficult. rnere is no shower in ute interior. 6 C~AIP_WOM~2,I OLiVA: Heat _ [,IS. JAKARUSSO: I have ~ right here. I 7 went down ~o the Building, what's that? NP.. _aI~DERSON: That is a bathroom and a 8 s ink. NS_ JAPLARUSSO: It says shower. 9 CFL~iRWOIYL.13I OLIVA: Submit EhaE as e~.idence_ Bruce, address the ~oard. 10 MR- }2[DERSON: There will be no shower, am representing that. Put i~ as a condition_ 11 is net a problem. It will in no way in shape be used fer ~ha~ purpose, i~ facE, if we de lower 12 ~he roof, which I see no reason why it can't, it's non e, ena habitable space. 13 ~N~.IRU,dH~I OLIVA: If the Board is agreeable, then I make a motion to close the 14 hearing. BCARD MEM~R DIHIZIO: Wait. That las~ 15 s~a~ement. Nhat does Ehat mean, you're going lower the reef? 16 M~_ r-2.]DERSON: Jerry had suggested that it 2an be lowered five fo'et. I have represented to 17 yOkl tha~ I don't see any reason Eha~ thaE cot~ld not scour because, frankl},, I ha?en'e even had 18 ~hat discussion with the applicant. BOARD r,{EMBER DINIZiO: I understand ~ha~, 19 but wheE will Ehe heigh~ of the ceiling in ~he ~nuic be, approximatei?? 20 hR. ANDERSON: if you look at the exterior elevation, righn now winh the gambrel in's quite 21 high, it's some 12 feeu. BOAP. D HEMBER DINIZIO: That I undersuand. 22 So you re going to lower iu five MR. ~tlDERSON: If the applicant has no 23 objection to it_ I will probably see an ai~erna~ive relief ehaE might very well sa'~ ~ha~, 24 unless I can convince yo~ ot±lerwise. Standing before you now, i have no reason es figP~t for ~he 25 heighn, i don'n know. This involved a discussion between Ehe architect and the applican~ and my 8O 1 2 understanding it's stora~ and i take a person for ~.,Jhat i~'s worth. So can a space be used for 3 storage that has less ceiling height? MS- answer would be why non? 4 BOARD HE~,'EBER DINIZiO: it can. HR. ANDERSON: What are we zalking about, 5 lat,,n furniEure, whatever, I don't need 12 feet bo than dc ~ha~. So I'm nee objecting to it unless I 6 d~scover some reason, and if iz's net to be, Lhe man csuld easily expand his house_ He could 7 triple zhe size of Ehe house, and never come before you_ He could put thaz exact szrucEure in 8 the rear yard, and by the wa,:', Hrs. Jakarusso, should be tha~ under that circumstance than garage 9 can be five fee~ from t~le proper~y line_ It's 2S feen from the properny line. 10 MS_ JA}iAt_USSO: It's a wooded area back mhere. 11 MR_ }2gDERSON: Regardless, the senback for an accessor_~, strucnure is five feeE. I won'~ be 12 kef ore ,~ou_ ,£HAiRWO[~2{ OLI.,ZA: Righn. i make the 13 me,ion ~o close the hearin9 and reserve incision unnil later subjec~ te receiving the revised 14 plans. HR. f~2{DERSON: Or somenhing from me. lB {.See minutes for resolu~ion.'~ 16 CHAIRNO[,tR~N OLIVA: I,'Jr. [4cFeely. For an as-built deck in Pecenic Bay Beulevard, Laurel. 1~,, NIR_ MCFEELY: les_ CPLZ~iRNOI,~N OLIVA: Jusn ~ell us what 18 you ' ~. e done. MR_ HCFEELY: I had a deck nha: was l~q atEached to my ns, use with an overhead awning_ The dec]; was 20' by 2,3' It wasn'E large enough for 20 mi family, i've had naken i~ dswn, discarded in, pul a new deck up 24' by 23' I discarded the 21 ~aivanized pipe awning structure and puz up snructurai columns wiEh a 23 foot beam ecross and 22 a ilard reef ali tied inzo the house; my house is shaped that wav_ Io's virtuail~, zhe exact same 23 spoz as the deck with Ehe awning over it, except i:'s three feet bigger, four feet bigger. The 24 r2. of sticking out is ~he same extension thaE the awning was. I though~ I could do it without 2~ permits, i was 100 percent wrong, so that's where ~,.e are. I~'s virtually complete_ The c£oses~ JuP= lB, 200~ 81 1 2 point to my bulkhead is 69' 10" as opposed to the _~ code of 75 feet_ The other csrner of the bulkhea~ 3 runs angled a little about i8, 79 feet. That's story. 4 CHAI RWOMAiq OLiVA: Jerry? BOAP. D MEHBER GOEHRINGER: The existing 5 part of the deck that is not undercover is going ue remain open to the sky? 6 MR. MCFEELY: Will always be ute way it is now, correcE. 7 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGEP~: No intention of ~ eYer closing it? 8 HR. MCFEELY: No intention of projecting an_/ furEher, no inter~tien of covering it over_ 9 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mr_ McFeely, is Uhere any intention of closing in that porch area 10 which .~eu createO, meaning the roofed-over porch? [',IR_ MCFEELY: Ne. I was thinking of maybe 11 a canvas ~rep cloth in case rain came in there. BOARD PIEMBER GOEHRINGER: I meant 12 permanent. MR- MCFEELY: No permanenE closing, 13 screening, no windows. And my apologies for .~ missing the meeting Ehis morning, i don't know 14 ~?here · got 6:40 fro~. CHAIRWOMAN C, LIVA: You were thinking 15 o1,~ ~als. Lydia? BOi~i%D MEHBER TORTOP~: No. You're just 16 going Eo expand uhis toward uhe side yard four ~eet? 17 NR. HCFEELY: The side ~ard goes either three sr four EhaE wa_,., or Ehree or four the fron~, 19 eno iu is seEback further than all the houses, si~ or eight houses east and wesn of me. 19 BOARD HEHBER TORTORA: The surve~ does show the lecaEien of the sEructures here. 2,5 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim? BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No quesEions. 21 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Anybody else in audience wishes to speaY{ en ~his hearing? if net, 22 I'll make a meEion to close Ehe hearing reserving decision until laEer. 23 (See minutes for resoluEion.) 24 CHAIRWOMR2~ OLIVA: Nexm hearing is for Ehe Fire District who wishes Eo prejecE an antenna ~ 25 thaE's 20 feet higher th~n ~he average height of 23 feeE ef the building wiEhin 300 feet of Ehe JuiL 1~, 200% 82 1 2 facility_ Yes, sir? MR. MULP~IN: Good afternoon, Madam 3 Chairman, Members of the Board, my name is AnEhonv Muirain, an~ i'm a partner at the Greenberg 4 Traurig law fil~ in Manhattan. I'm here this afternoon represenEing OmnipoinE Communications in ~ connection with their applica~isn for an area .~ariance at the premises located a~ SS135 Hain 6 Road here in Ehe Town of Soutnold_ As the Board may ~e fami£iar, OmnipoinE 7 Communications ms a federally licensed provider of wireless nelecommunications services, essenEially 8 0mnipoin~ is a cellular ~elephone company. Omnipoint service is relied on for purposes of 9 making mobile telephone calls. As we have expressed in the application, OmnipoinE nas a 10 significant and ongoing gap in izs coverage nero in the Town of Soutnold. As a pare of Z~e 11 proposed remedy for EnaE coverage gap, OmnipoinZ has made an application 12 replace an existing 40 face weeOen monopole az fire deparEment with a 60 feat monopole thaE would 13 essen:ialli be steel in :arms ef material. AZ a heigh~ of 60 feeE, Omnipeint would be able to fill 14 ~e design coverage gap. The reason ~ha~ we cannot use the existing structure is in pare at a 1S height sf 40 feeE, Omnipoint would noE be a~le to fill i~s coverage gap. Indeed, we have done an 16 analysis, we ha,~e learned thee facE, Omnipoint also would not Se able no fill les 1/ gap in coverage_ This afternoon I ha,~e wi~h me a number ef 18 intividuals who could provide testimonv to the Baar~_ One is Leu Cernacchia from Syanetics, 19 if it pleases the Board, I woulO actualll speak wiEh Ehe Board and here's why. Over the 20 course of E~e last month or so we receipted some correspondence from some concerned residents about 21 the ssund emanating from the horn nhan's a~ the E2wer. I'm sure ERe Board knows nhaE hsrn is used 22 b5- tRe fire ~epartmen~ net by Omnipoint_ Indeed, the reason chat we recfuesEed that this Board 23 atjourn our hearing originally schedule~ for last month was so we could do en evaluation of wheEher 24 ~here is anything that we could possibly do mitigaEe the noise that's coming from ~haE horn. 25 · ~o ha_e Mr. ,2ornacchia nero, he's done an evaluaEion and I'd really appreeiate ~he July ih, 206,4 83 1 2 opportunity for him to address the Board. i aisc, have with me Tom Turkel from 3 William F_ Collins AssociaEes Hr. Turkel is the architect on the sine. There could be cernain % questions that he could address that would be of use to the Board. Additionally I have Mike Lynch, 5 Plr. Li,~ch is a real estate appraiser. Nr. Lynch would testify tha~ ~here would be ne di~inu~ion in 6 real estate values as a consequence of ~he pole replacement. I have Donna Stippo, project 7 planner_ Miss Stippo would ~es~ify Ehat there isn't a significant impact or reality any change 8 in impact to the surrounding areas as a consequence of extending the pole. Amd i also ~ ha,~e Nicholas Balzano, who is a radio frequency engineer who designed the site who could give an 10 explanation as te why i~ needs ~o be at a heighE ,of 60 feet_ 11 I Ehink that we put together a pretty comprehensive package ~e ~he Board and hopefully 12 i'~e gi,~en a good general description ~o the Board in Eerms of what the application is about. If it 13 Fleases the ~oard, I'd like to bring Hr_ Cornacchia forward and then to the extent EhaE 14 .... ~u re interested in any_ further testimony, we have further testimony ~hat we ceuid prcvide as 15 well as ~dditienal reports. ASST TONN ATTY CORmgRAI,I Could you 16 briefly describe for me as how pou arri~-ed a~ ~his location as opposed ~o oEher locations assuming 17 ~ha~ y~n need somewhere in Ehe vicinity to fill :our eoyerage gap, bu~ why this spot? 18 MR. MULRAIN: fhe best w~y te explain would be te start from ~he general and work back 19 Eo the specific_ Omnipoint has a license to provide services over a very wi~e area. Omnipoint 20 provides services from ~he east coast te ~he ~_~t~=~ coast and in designing a network whelis~icall!?, 21 you nave a map and you come up with a design for ~c, ur enEire iioensed area. Ge~ing smaller, you 22 ,some up wiEh Ehe design for a particular s~ate, smaller Ehan Lha~, a particular county, smaller 23 ~han thee a particular municip, ali~y. We could ~ell ;~ou eoday ~he general vicinity ~ha~ we need a 2% siEe in jusE about every area .of ~his bDwn or even adjacent Eowns. It's all based on wha~ we call a 25 search ring analysis_ Nithin ~his particular search ring, ~here are, I would imagine, tifferen~ July iS, 2004 84 1 2 ,arying locations chat Omnipoint could look at, this particular location at a heigh~ of 60 feet 3 ,Divert the proposed sites in different areas of the t,own a££ows that coverage to drop in verl,,- evenlf. 4 As a matter of fac~, I have some information ~hat migh~ be useful ~e the Board. 5 ASST TONN I~TTY CORCOP22~: Basically question is, is it ntis site because it's already 6 ~ pole or would you have to build a new pole at ar~_ot her silo? , NK. HULP-'A~IN: There' s actually a few reasons _ 8 If you turn to the last couple ,of pages UhaE you have, you see some maps, basicall?, 9 l~ave Map A, you have Map 1 and you have [,lap 2, if 5~ou look at Map 1, just he help ~he Board, you see 10 a red dot rig½t here (indicating, . that red do~ shows where the proposed sine is; if you look at 11 nhe entire whi~e area on ~he map, ,~eu: will nenice there's no coverage ~here_ Coverage is indicaned 12 b5' green and bi' yellow, and when there's white nhere's no coverage. So we've got to find the 13 si~e that fi~s, that would provide a blanken of coverage to that area. If you turn to Map 1, Hap 14 1 shows what coverage wet, id be provided from the subjec~ site, from the si~e that ~;e have applied 15 for at a height of 50 feet. And you can see that i~'s still choppy; there are areas there thau are 16 not osvered_ If }ou turl% to ~he nex~ page that's a height of 6,0 feet, you can see that ooverage is 17 more .2omplete. So to ans~¥er your cfeestion, aE le~s~ as best I can, we had to identifI' a site in 18 ~his general area Ehat would provide the level of coverage EhaE you're loo].'_ing at on Map 2, bu~ at 19 ~he same time net cause a significant aesuhetic impac~ Es the area, and that's how this site was 20 selectet. ASST F,DWN ATTY CORCORAN:~-.% li~tie more 21 specifically my question is, are there other areas in question in that area EhaE might work but you 22 would either have Lo build a new pole or mere inErusive er less intrusive? 23 HR. HULRAIN: Yes, absolueely }-es. ASST TOWN AT'FY ,20RCC, RA'i.~: Is this ~he ozllI 24 site ir~ that area tha~ would no~ require the buildir~g of a new pole? 25 LIP.. MULPf~IN: This is the or~ly slue ~ha~ we ha~-e identified that %,:euld work, that would Juif 15, 2,2,,2,4 85 1 2 simpl51 be a swap f~P one pol~ for another. In all other instances we would have to install a pole 3 that was never there before and se the impact would Be significantly different. If it pleases 4 the Board, I'd like to bring forth Hr. Cornacchia. MR. CORNACCHIA: Thank you very m~ch. ~y 5 name is Leu Cornacchia, I'm president of Syane5. ics Corporation_ I'm an electrical engineer, graduate 6 of Manhattan College School ef Engineering. My background essentially is I worked wi~h 7 the Department ef Defei\se for abou5 25 years on microwa~e systems for countermeasures in 8 reconnaissance systems, flight control_ An~ I ha,~e worke.i wiuh the wireless industry for about 9 14 years in providing interference analysis, FCC compliance analysis, and ot~er sera-ices similar ~o 10 RF communications. I did perform a series of re,~iews or sEudies, one regarding particularly the 11 existing fire ~epartment antenna -- i'm sorry, siren, which is locaEed on a wooden pole that is 12 lecaEed adjhcen~ to the building, the fire department building, having an approximate 13 elevation of about 55 feet, anO the siren is approximatei5~, the bottom of the siren is 14 appro~imately 54 renu. r=~d it was manufactured by a company in Wisconsin called Alerting 1~ Communications of America, and it's a 10 horsepower motor driving, what is termed a 16 single-phased motor. But essentially it's a siren that has the capacity te aler5 the temporary or 17 ~oinnteer fire department out to a distance ef 6,000 ra~ial feet or a raOius of 6,000 feet under 18 the moist adverse weather conditions. That is a FSMA code requirement. 19 The relative specs of the antenna - I'm sorry, I keep saying antenna but it's ehe siren, 20 essentialli~ is to provide a cooperage efa ~we mile circle. Fire department has sta~e{ to me, and 21 l'Ye been speaking te Donald Sayer, who is ~he commissioner ef the fire department, indicateO 22 that the}, have reached a prior agreement with either the town or local members of the community 23 ~hat the}~ woul~ only use the siren for rescue D~rposes in alerting their volunteer personnel 24 between E~e hours of 6:00 a_m. to 6:06, p.m. and will onl~' sound the siren from 6:00 p.m. to 6:00 25 a.m_ under a general alarm or let's say a critical crisis condition_ So ~hat the limitation of the July lb, 2004 86 1 2 nse o'f that siren during the day has beei1 stated as I indicated. The,z are apparentllz adhering to 3 that and :he only other times beyond the 6:0,2, a_m. to 6:0,3 p.m. period will be agais~ for mere ad~erse 4 conditions that might 'surfaoe where the,:- must locate and advise their volunteer fire ,department 5 of their need. Ne, in facE, did this morning and preciselI at 12:,30 noon took measuremenEs coming 6 f~om the siren when iE was turned .on. In our rsadings, we had two essen~iai readings, one is 7 the peak reading at a distance of 100 feet at ground level, or six feet above ground of 121 8 .decibels peak in about 99.8 decibels, what is termed fasu AFLAQ readings, which is nhe averaging 9 of nhe peak readings. We attempted to Eake readings of a 200 feet disnance, which is the 10 iosation ef ~h~e senior citizens facility5 which is nearby at approximately 20% feet from the pelt, 11 which is mounting or holding the siren, which is mounted te it, and we never quite made i~ there 12 because the siren was shut off, it was oni~ on for about 20 seconds, and it didn't reach its full 13 potential for at least four, five or six seconds. But ~,,e could theoretically calculate tha~ sound 14 level at the building level or building itself 204 f2, oc radial disEance ef about 115 decibels peak 15 with an average reading of about 93.8. I am not aware of a Southeld noise ordinance, so it just is 16 a comment. We sertainiy are z~ot in violation ,of any ordinance since it doesn'n exist. This is a 17 need that has been suggested, was required by the fire department primarily because the means for 18 sur otherwise locating and advising the personnel temporary personnel on a need-basis through o~her, 19 telephone or radio was not reliable at two miles, and this is a need thaE they hare for coverage of 20 two miles, even tllough the radius that :his p, rovides for reliably at 6,000, feet under the most 21 hostile conditions is what this siren was depigned for. it'=~ still able to be detected at .... u*~ miles 22 and ~hey rely on that factor. 2-zTy questions? BOARD MEMBP~R GOEHP_INGER: Not a~ this C~AiRW,DNZ-2{ OLiVA: I don't thin],~ ~.~e ha~e 24 any further questions about that. Sir, we appreciate :hat you have gone te the trouble to de 2S ~hat because the residents were concerned, but if ~h=.: re limiting arid they have worked sue an July 15, 2,2.,34 86 1 2 use of Ehau siren during the day has beeil seated ~, as I indicated_ The,_,, are apparently adhering 3 thaE and the only other times beyond the 6:00 to 6:00 p.m. period will be agazn for more adverse ~{ 4 conditions that migh~ surface where ~hey mus~ locate and advise their volunEeer fire departmenu 5 of Their need. We, in fact, did this morning and precisely ar. 12:00 neon teek measuremenEs coming 6 from the siren when it was ~urned on_ In our readings, we had Ewe essenuial readings, eno is 7 the pea~: reading at a distance of 100 feet at ground level, or six feet above ground ef 121 5 decibels peak in about 99.8 decibels, what is nermed fasu AFLAQ readings, which is the averaging 9 cf the peak readings. We attempsed ~o take readings efa 200 foot distance, which is uhe 10 location of Ehe senior citizens facility, which is nearby at approximately 204 feeE from ~he pole, 11 which is mounting or holding Ehe siren, which is mounEed uo it, and we never quite made it there 12 because the siren was shut off, iu was only on for abouU 20 seconds, and it didn'n reach ins full 13 potential for aU least four, five or six seconds. z~, Bu~ we could theoretically calculate that sound 14 level au the building level or building itself 204 ii foot radial distance of about 115 decibels peak I1! 15 wi~h an average reading of abou~ 93.8. I am not aware of a Souuheld noise ordinance, se ~u just is 16 a commen~. We certainly are not in violation of " any ordinance since i~ doesn't exist. This is a ! 1~~ need ~hat has been suggested, was required b,,.' the 'i fire deparEmen~ primarily because the means for ! 18 cur otherwise locating and advising the personnel temporary personnel on a need-basis through other, I 19 telephone or radio was not reliable at two miles, il II and this is a need tha~ uhey have fez coverage of i 20 two miles, even though the radius ~hat ~his provides for reliably at 6,000 feet under the most !~ 21 hostile condiuions is wha~ this siren was designed i for. it's still able to be detected a~ two miles ,i ~i 22 and ~hey rely on Eha~ factor. Any ques~i'ons? I BOARD MEMBER GOEZ{RINGER: ~qot at this il 23 Ei~e. I CHAIRWOM.'~2¢ OlhI%~: I don'~ ~hink we have "i 2% any further questions abou~ that_ Sir, we :] appreciate that ,Zou have gone to t~le trouble Eo do ~ I 25 Eha~ because ~he residents were concerned, but if "'q ~hey're limiting and they have worked out an July 1S, 2004 87 2 agzeement with ute neighbors, that's fine. ~. CORNACCHIA: I don't know how long 3 standing that agreement is, bun it's what I was told. 4 MR. HULP~IN: Madam Chairwoman, we have provided vou with general information regarding 5 the application in written form_ I have walked Ehe Beard through general information about the 6 s~e, essentiall5' ~here are no flashing lights_ wiEh ~he excepuien ef the siren that's already 7 there, there woul~ be ne noise that comes from Ehe sine. There would Se no additional traffic, 8 mainteI~ance have visits to ~he facility would be approximately once monthly; there's no impact on 9 parking. It's essentially a site that has no real impact o~ the communits,. 10 Having said uhat, I do have a number ef witnesses here u~ ute extent that any member ef 11 the Board has questions that I er any of my witnesses can answer. 12 ~ BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'd like Eo see ~.isual impact and design_ 13 k~R. HULRAIN: For purposes of the design, I can bring forward Tom Turkel. Tom is an 14 archiEect with William F. Collins Associates. MR. TURKEL: Good afternoon, my name is 15 Tom Turkel I'm an partner with William F. Collins Archiuects. Our o{fices are in Setaukeu at 10-1 16 Tecnnology Drive, Setauket, New York. BO}iD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I proceed? 17 CHAIRWO~&~{ OLIVA: Go ahead_ BOAtD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: l{ow many 18 collocations can this menopole locate? HR. TURKEL: Dependent on the tecnnelogy 19 ef ute other carriers_ %~e're proposing a 60 feo~ high pole here, that's hOE very high; that's a~ 20 ~he height we need te be to achieve sa~is£actery coverage as was explained ~o you ~efore 21 Mr. Mnlrain, and yen looked at the map_ A carrier could go beneath us on the pole, bu~ I don't know 22 what kind of coverage ~ney can get. BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Has there been 23 any new technology, and I realize no one ~as come forth nor have we finished er compleEed this 24 hearing, to make these poles a [itele more appealing? They ~re ~he ugliest looking Ehings I 2~ have ever seen in my life, and ~ am not saying unat. the 300 foot pole in West Hills which looks Jul}~ lB, 2004 88 1 2 like I don't know what kind of tree is any more appealing than this is. I am more concerned with 3 imf discussion with your organization - not your organizatiori but ~he organization tha~ is bringing 4 this application - with our park district in [~lattituck, with the ability of putting up flag 5 pcies, and fou bring up an in%er%sting pein~ here because %here is a great possibility that there is 6 limitation in reference to coverage for any future collocation on this pole. I don'~ understand 7 wtiy- and I have no objection te this fire district which is a sister fire district tea 8 community that I live in within this ~own -- why we're no~ pushing flag poles or some other device 9 oLher than the blatant looking aspects of this pole and this device that sits above iL. I i0 realize it's an extremely important thing to have. We really can't iiYe without these 11 telecommunications systems %oday. MP_. TURKEL: LeE me sar that there are 12 and %ou've all seen nh%se things, we all live wi~h 5hem on a daily basis -- there are a number of 13 types of poles_ TI%ere are gui.- towers, which you have seen, ~ery, _ thin, kind of a lacy,_ vernicai 14 Lower without any splay to it, but it has two four cables running out a subsnantial distance to 15 dead men, a big chunk of concrete buried in the ground, to keep the Lower from flopping ever_ 16 it's kind of a delicate, lac,:, thing. It's net visually objectionable, some get quite tall, 300, 17 450 feet. The next step iii towers beyond that is what's called a lattice Lower, kind ef lo%ks like 18 the Eiffel Tower, for lack of a better description, either three legged or four legged 19 tower. The next Yersion of the tower is what's called a monopole, which we have here. A monopole 20 has several varieties ~o it_ One is you can mount the an5ennas compactly close to Ih% pole, as we 21 have aL~empted ~o do here Lo a~neliorate appearance somewhat. You' re all familiar wiEh the 22 monepoles 5ha% have a triangular platform or ha~, an isosceles triangle ab%ut l& foot per side, it 23 has four antennas along each side and it makes each pole look much bigger and uglier if %hat's 24 possible. This pole is a happt~ medium, o~-her ~i;pes of poles, there are definitely flag poles 25 that can be iuad, and ~here are also fake %roes you see t~em if you drive down on the Jersey Turnpike, July 15, 2004 89 1 2 but i~ does disgnise the antennas. This pole tha~ we're proposing here is 3 kind of middle of the road_ In all ~he years that i' .re been doing this, which is about 15 er 16 % years, i've always waited for somebody on the Board no say, well, hew would you like to live 5 across the street· from a cell site? As a ma~Eer of fact I do. in my case ~he cell site's on the 6 water tanK, but the fa,c~ of the matter is we all live with certain things that are more functional 7 nhan aesthetic in our daily lives, which includes in my case the water tank across the street 8 which antennas were added or to certain towers, you drive up and dewr~ the Long Island Expressway, 9 there is series of towers wi~h microwave dishes en them_ Without that i'ou wouldn't have any local 10 long distance or long distance service, so some of these things become a necessary evil_ 11 As necessary evils go, this pole is fairly benign. I don't argue with }~our point. i[2 certainly is not an objet d'art, but it's prettl? mild compared te some ef them_ 13 BOARD MEHBER GOEHRINGER: The ql~estion I have and I'1i make this last final statement, arid 1% that is, I don't understand why, when you're dealing with a municipality, and there is no 1~ cellocaEion possibility, i mean there is a pos.sibility of one collocation on it, why~ carrier 16 doesn'n push such aesthetic tl~ings as flag poles? And ~hat's just a visual opinion in this 17 particular situation. MR. TURKEL: Why would ~hey not push for 18 multiple carriers? BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, push for a 19 flag pole, which would be much more of an aesthenic device. 20 MR_ TURKEL: Several reasons. First reason is than you would have to put more antennas 21 sn the flag pole because you gat less of them. This antenna is six foon hall and i think two z~ annennas within each body_ You go in the flag pole your space is reduced, and you have ~o put 23 ~ore antennas inside ~he same body ~o come up with the same number of an%annas, bu~ when you do tha~, 24 there's no free lunch involved. If you add more little pieces inside, you reduce the capacity of 25 the pieces so you lose coverage. Each of these sites are basically very simple and at the same July 15, 2004 90 1 2 time sophisticated in the sense that they are designed to solve a unique problem in this 3 situation. Five miles down the road you could have a similar appearing situation which because 4 of topography or other conditions would require a differen~ engineering solution. This is a geed 5 engineering solution for this community and this service gap is why it's don~: like this_ 6 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can ,~'ou gi~e me a quick percentage ef what i'ou ~hink ~he reduction 7 loss would be if you used at flag pole of a similar height? 8 MR_ TURKEL: That is so far ou~ of my field, sir, i can'~ do thao. 9 , BOARD MEMBBR ,SOEHRINGER: That was a nice presentation. 10 SORi%D MEMBER TORTORA: One questioN: The flag poles are a lot more costly? 11 MR_ TURKEL: Not substar~tiallp so_ The difference between the pole that we have or a 12 taller menopole and a flag pole is that up to the bottom of the area of the pole uhae's covered wi~h 13 Lhe stealsh skin, you have the same pole the5 ~ae're proposing here. Above at some point the-:~ 14 stop that pole, they put a base pl~e on there and put a strong but thin steel shaft up the cen~er, 15 mount the antennas around that very compactl;, and very small and then thev cover that with a radio 16 frequency transparent material that appears co be the same as the pole below it, and then they put 17 halliers and cleats on it and a truck en ~he top, which is a fancy name for the ball, and it leeks 18 like a flag pole. ~OARD MEMBER TORTORA: Wha~ is ~he 19 ~ difference in cost, that's what I was trying te find out? 20 MR. TURK~,L: Pure speculation on m!' par~, twice the cost, maybe mere. 21 CHAIRNOP~N OLIVA: Jim? BOARiD HEN[BmR DiNIZIO: If I understand 22 pst correctly, a flag pole disguising the antennas that way would reduce ~he coverage areas? 23 HR. TURKEL: Nouldn't reduce the coverage areas, that would reduce capacity, but again 24 that's eu: of m_v area of expertise, but it ~x, euld reduce capacity because of the configuration ef 2~ the antenna. I could be all wrong, it's nee m:' field. July 15, 200~ 91 1 2 BOARD MEMBER DINIZiO: The reason you're not using the flag pole is cost? 3 MR. TURKEL: It's net cost. As I tried to explain before, each of these sites, thongh the~r 4 seem similar to other sites, is uniquel5' designed : to cover the gap for this area, based on Lhe size '5 of ~he gap and the topography and what's here. 'And a similar appearil~g situation, five er 10 6 miles down the road the engineering solution ~hat's recommended might be entirely different 7 because of the variation of the factors. BOAP_D ME~ER DINIZIO: Yen can't answer 8 the questions that I ~hink it's coverage, that's the reason why you're not using a more aesthetic 9 pole, but somebody here can? MR_ TURKEL: Yes_ 10 BOAP~ HEHBER DiNIZIO: Se wa'il ask Lhat question of that person_ 11 [.'IR. MULRAIN: Let me give the Beard a few points ef clarification. One of the problems wilt 12 the flag pole is l~eu can'~ put ~he horn, which is a rotating horn that the fire department uses 13 inside a flagpole er around a flagpole, that would ,.~. be the main problem with respect to the flag [ 14 pole. As Mr_ Turkei explained no you, his !:, expeztise is really not in network design, thau's ~, 15 really the area for a radio frequenct~ engineer, ;,. but lee me tell you a little bit of whaL I know !i~ 16 with respect to flag poles_ O~le of the issues '!" wiEha flag pole is that once ~ou've insnalled the ~, 17 flag pole, that's it. A flag pole can't be ~,~ extended. So if someone comes and makes an i 18 application Lo this Board say six to 12 months i! later and they sai~ if that pole at the fire I.I 19 station can be increased in height by 10 feet, you ,I don't have that option available to yon, you can't h 20 increase the height. You can increase the height !'l of a monopole. The other issue is, and I'll bring [t 21 Nick Baizano forward, in addition to causing a I[ capaciEy problem, it also causes a coverage i 22 problem. The signal is degraded when the antennas i are inside of a flag pole. Hopefully Lhat gives a 23 more expansive answer. To the extent that since we're on this topic the Board is interesEed, I can 24 bring forward I'4r_ Balzano who can answer the :1 questions about coverage e~en more pointedly than BOARD Iv[EMBER DINIZIO: i'd like Eo hear '" July 15, 2004 92 1 2 from him. MR_ BALZANO: Basically this is a 3 tepographical map representing Southoid. Here we ha~e in gray we represent nhe existing site in the 4 area, and in blue we are representing the site nba5 will be added in the future in the network to 5 fully co~er the Town of Southold. The re~ dot represents the subject site au 60 feet and the 6 yellow dot represents the future site that has a similar ~esign to our site here in Southold. 7 The first overlas; represents basically the so~erage offered by the existing site. Basically 8 ~he green area represenns reliable coverage. What this means is that wiEhin this area a customer 9 will De able ~o receive or make phone calls eno will net experience a .drop ef call traveling along 10 this area. The clear area is that represented gap in coverage or ~nreliable coverage. What this 11 mealis is a c%ls~omer within in area or traveling from ur~covere~ area to uncovered area will 12 experience a dropped call er will not be able te receive or make phone calls. As you can see here 13 in Sounhold, basically, there is an extensive gap in coverage in the areas, basically we have almost 14 l_e miles along Main Road, almost half mile along Yeung's Amienue and two-tenths of a mile along 15 North Road. Finally we cema with the second overla}~. 16 The second overlay is basically the coverage offered by the subject site at a height ef 50 17 feet, how you can see the site and I can't say zhis is the coverage that will be offere~ b5 the 15 flagpole for the reason Mr. Mulrain said, the enclosure around the antennas will basically 19 degrade the wal' the signal travels, and it will basically reduce the coverage. Also because we 20 were looking righn here to achieve our coverage with a minimum height, not basically extend what 21 is existing but try to utilize what we already ha,~e. New you can see here, ntis is 50 feet or 22 similar tea flag pole, a gap in coverage will still exist along Main Read ~nd along Raynor Roa~, 23 se ~hat means that if I initiate a phone call under the coverage of our subject sine, an{ moving 2~ outside the area, most likely I'm going no drop Eno call. This is Ehe coverage offered by our 25 sine at 60 feet and with nhe current configuration we are proposing. Now you can see E~e coverage Jull~ 1S, 2004 93 '2 expands a little bi~_ It has enough overlap wiuh the existi~Ig coverage in green, and this means we 3 will provide reliable coverage for our c~s~omers_ When I exFiained ~his, I ~ried to have an analogy 4 with umbrellas and on a rainy day. Basically a cusUomer, what we are trying no achieve wiu. h our 5 network is co cover an area with umbrellas, if somebod!~ walks throngh an area ~.~ith ute umbrellas 6 and the umbrellas are no~ overlapped, i haz-e a greater chance to ge~ wet_ The existing coverage ~ and our proposed coverage overlapped one another, I [lave a greater chance with that communication 8 while I'm ~raveling through is going to fall, that's why we need our site at 60 feet_ 9 Basically that's the minimum height ~ha~ we need ~o achieve our coverage objectives_ 10 BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The question still remains, whaE is ,_~:eur opinion in l;eur 11 expertise regarding the difference between a monopele at 60 feen and a flag pole au 60 feet? 12 MN,_ B_~LZ}2{C,: The cooperage will be reduced. I will not meet my coverage objectives. 13 I wonlc~ need to go higher in order to achieve ~he same corerage tha~ I would achieve wi~h our pole 14 with that design at that height_ BOARD I~EMBEP_ GOEHP. INGER: How much higher? IS 10 feet, 20 feeu? MR_ BALZANO: Fo be safe, between 10 az~d 16 20 feet uo have uhat kind of overlap wi~h ute e~l s E lilg co~.rerage. 17 ,2HAIRWOH.~{ OLIVA: Hew much wonid it ces~ for a flag pole? 18 MR. BALZANO: I don't have EhaE kind of knowledge, probably. 19 HR. MULRAIN: We would be glad te provide that _ 20 CHAIRWONTZ2[ OLiVA: An,:.' other questions? BOARD MEI4BER DINIZiO: 21 CHAIRWOH}I[ OLIVA: Go ahead, Jim. B,OAP~D MEMBER DINIZIO: The first picture 22 you showed us with just t[le green, Eha~ is r~ot ye-er current coverage? 23 [~[R. BALZANO: This is no~ Ehe current coverage_ This is the coverage plus whau I would 24 need in ~he area uo completely cover the entire Town ef Sou,_held_ The e:{isr_ing coverage comes 2S from ~his side in gray, the triangles, and here we also i~ave added the coverage from future proposed 1 2 siEes. B,DARDMEMBER DINIZIO: ~on~=rnzng this 3 flag pole versus whaE vet wane to put up there now, which I'm assuming is a hat on top, right? .~ MR_ BALZANO: Is antenna aroun~ the pole, yes _ 5 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Isosceles triangle? ¥ MR. BALZi~?O: No, will be flush mounted to the pole, we will have 5we sets ef antennas, one 7 on top of each other, but we're not hacin9 an array nham triangles will be flush mounued no the 8 pole so Oasicallv you will see just the pole itself with the panels for the same probable width 9 of the pole itself, so basically you ~on't have anything that exceeds the width of ~he pole. 10 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Approximately what is Eno width of the pole where ~he antennas are 11 going to be? MR. TURKEL: About 18 ~e 20 inches at the 12 top and about 24 Lo 38 at the bottom depending on Ehe design and factory we buy and the overall 13 height. Bu~e~D MEMBER DINIZIO: Would that include 14 the antennas? M~_ TURKEL: Yes. 15 EO~D MEMBER DINIZIO: So 18 inches at ~he hep is going to be wiEh the antennas? 16 MR. BALZANO: Keep in mind, the width ef 5he antenna is 12 inches so we ~ave at the top 18 17 inches, so actually we have six inches exceeding on both sides of the annenna. Basically we sLiil 18 look at the pole itself_ BOARD MEMBER DINIZiO: ich're asking for 1~ 60 foot antenna, can that antenna be extended up, t~e one 5-ou're proposing right now? 20 MR. BALZANO: The pole I assume ca~ be e~nended. 21 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: What would De the maximum height considering the Dase, 22 approximaEel3? Another two carriers, another one? MR_ TURKEL: That can be designed in~o 23 pole Dased on 5he foundation. You have deeermine, the structure is alwavs designed from 24 nne sop down. You figure out new Eall }'on wart iL bs be, what's going no be a5 the various levels, 25 develop the engineering data to design ~he foundation, which is usually the limiting element, July 15, 2004 2 i was going ~o say weak lihk -- bad analogy - but that covers the height of ute pole. ~ BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: i think that's why i'm asking the question, nba federal government 4 does encourage collocation. Certainly if we're going through ~his ~rouble, it might be to our 5 advar~tage to collocate another carrier there as opposed to having them come wimh an application 6 ~or another place. I know the federal government encourages that, and I gness I'm asking you as 7 proposed what is the capacity of this antenna beyond izour use? 8 hR. TIIRFi~L: Right now tha~ capacity issue hasn't been specifically addressed because we're 9 in an early design phase. That's an engineeriug function_ If we sa}~ we want to hold a maximum of 10 three carriers does it mean eventual e~Uensions of another 40 feet or 24 feet, then we would design 11 ~he bottom of the pole that's going to be iniEialiv put there as well as the four, darien to 12 aocommodat e that. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: ~'[ould it be any 13 wider if yon decided to ge higher? MR_ TURKEL: .... sir_ 14 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: How much? MR. TURKEL: They get as wide as 42 inches iS on the bo~totn. BO~t~D MEMBER DINIZIO: An top instead of 16 18 inches, i~ might be? HR. TURKEL: 24 inches propor~ionateiy, i~ '17 ge~s wider, fee. BOARD ME~*IB~R DINIZIO: How high would 18 those towers get? MR. TUR~_SL: Fhose type poles i've seen as 1~ ~all as 190 feet, 200 fee~. A~ Ehat point, you're get~ing into an area where a ia~Eice tower like 20 the Eiffel Tower is more structurally efficient, it's more cost efficient to use ~haE ~ype than ~he 21 monepoie_ BOARD f'~IEMBER DINIZiO: Basically two feet 22 aE the bottom 18 inshes au_ the top and the antennas are net going to be overhanging the tower 23 itself? I'dR. TURKEL: Righ~ now as proposed here, 24 ~b_e antennas are niounted closely on t~he side of the newer, bu~ thep're not within the silhouette 25 of the pole, they're applied ~o the outside of ute July 15, 26,04 2 Bsa=RD NEMBER DINI~IO: ~O your reduotion ~, using a flag pole, would be zhe fact that ~ou'ra (, 3 covering up those antennas? MR. BALZANO: I would not h%ve the panels :; % o~ the outside like in this case. ',i BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Going up wouldn'z 5 increase your gain? [vIR. BALZ}lqO: The coverage is a fuz~ctien 6 ef height, and keep in mind, again, 60 fearn, we are really on the tree line and ooverage is also 7 funczien of line ef site. So with that height, wa'il have clear basicalll~ ou~ of ~he trees as an 8 obstruction_ BOARD MEHBER DINIZIO: If }~eu wen~ up 10 9 foe~ higher and made i~ a flag pole - F'L~.. BALZAi~O: I would achieve, yes, in 10 order to do so, i need to go higher. BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Then i~ou would 11 have ze increase the base. Iu really wouldn't look like a flag pole, it would look like a big 12 Dole. What do you intend to do with the siren, you're putting iu en top ef ntis? 13 MR.BAhZAN~'- ~ ^: Eventually yes, zhe siren will be on uep. I'm sorry. {' 14 MR. TURKEL: Right now Eta siren is 'v proposed to go on the side of ~he pole. You all ,~ 15 have nhis drawing where we're about seven, eight [: fee~ below the bou~om of the antenna. That horn , 16 would actually be out on an arm that would come ',; out so ~he horn wonld be where the pen is, the arm i". 17 would be out about ~wo feet frem the pole. So Ehan would occur righ~ zhere. Because the horn ;'[ 18 actually rotates. These panel antennas are six feet tail, so that's about six fooe below ~he i' 19 boEtom of that antenna. BOARD [~[EMBER DINIZIO: You melltioned if 20 ~.~on had the flag pole, you would have u_he problem vdth the siren; what would ~he problem be? 21 HR. TURF, EL: The problem would be, the siren would either have Ee be mounted, remember I 22 described ~haE zhe flag pole was a hollow, srlir~drical pole, zoa poi~:t was jusE like this I' 23 pole, a~ some point we puZ a cat plate ,on ii: and , then puz az: inaer steel core up. You couidn'z I,, 24 mount aZ ~hat point, so yo~'re going ~c. have to I m.sunt either a vard arm out below that point on [ 25 ~he regular pole so it could romaUe, or put it a~ the verl,~ top of zhe pole so you could rotate_ Jnl,~ 1~, 200~ 97 2 Tho~e would be your choices_ ~.~,, CH~IRWO}~2~ OLI%A: Is there anybody in 3 the attdience thee wishes uo speak on behalf ef this application, eiE[ler for or against? 4 MR. I.EILRAIN: I think ~you mez~tioned you would like to see some aesthetics on ~he site_ B would like ~o bring forward DonlIa Marie Stippo, she's the project planner from DHS Consulting. 6 I4S. STIPPO: As _~ou can see they're mc. un,ed directly on uhe outside of ute structure. 7 Here's your siren and then this would be your pole with the siren en it, and then they sort of 8 cluster around ~he structure itself_ Here's a close up so yon can see right from ute main street 9 where the fire department area is, and you can see the two sets of antennas. As the structure gets 10 higher of course, it would have a larger breadth off the horizon as well as this, I know you were 11 talking about the base of the structure, iE is located more towards ehe rear .Df the property, se 12 even a 42 foot base, as low as it is wenld not necessarily be directly on a minor er major '13 roadwa_~~, se it wol~ld have a little bit ef ,~m. shielding b-et that's a very large base, EhaE 42 [ 14 inches. And we gave you some pictures. You' 11 '~ see you have whip antennas currently on the ,,~ 15 firehouse. 'Phis is mhe prettiest of the I[ monopoles, the numerous racks, and the different pi 16 t}loes of iesigns the5 have can ~ave. This is the I';} least obtrusive of a monopole in that caEegor}~, if hl 17 yOU will. ii! ~'lha~ I have seen i'e the past as services !; 18 are required, as municipalities grow, you wind up ,.l!li with whip antennas on these for police, fire and !' 19 safet;,, counuy, you can put that type of servzce ii, orl these structures, you Call put the small arms on [i! 20 there, 'fou can'~ do ~hat wi~h ~he flag poles. You have limitations with both, but i Elnderstand the i;, 21 line of questioning where you were going. " SOARD MEMBER ~ ~ - ~s as =OEHRIN,~ER. long · z~ :~.u re no~ putting it on a peninsula, everything 23 HR. }4ULRAIN: Are ~here any o~her questions that either mp~self or anl' ef the 24 witnesses can answer for the Board? .~ ASST TOWN ATTY CORCORAN~ From a legal ~ 2B perspective, is there anything in particular tha~_ u you think we should be focused on or keep in mind July 15 2004 98 1 2 or salient? HR. HULRAIN: I think from a legal 3 stan~poinl ~here are couple of things. This facilini% as Hiss Stippo jusn demonstrated no you, 4 is not a facility than is going to have an a~serse impact on the community er on ehe surrounding 5 environmenn. In your own question you asked, how did we go about selecting this site. And I was 6 able te explain that. I nhink that's a question of significance because it's acnually requiremenn 7 n%LmDer 5we in your area variance requirements_ I think the key thing is ne dimin~tien of 8 real es~ane values, no noise, no odors, no sound, ne gas, no significan~ or impac~ no mention 9 whatsoever on ~raffic, on parking or otherwise_ I nhink it's also noteworthy'that unis particular 10 facility arguably has a lesser impacu Yhan other uhings that are perminEe~ in the zone by right_ 1 11 mean nhere's no impact on, I don't know, the electricity. There's no impact on the sewer 12 system, uhere's no need for waner_ CHAIRWO[~%N OLIVA: We don't ~ave sewers. ~3 HR. HUuRAIN: Well, nhen we won'n nee~ another septic tank, if that's what's used here, 1~ n~at's a positive_ So, having said than, I ~hink in's consistent wi~h certainly other public lb u~iiities. I nh~nk we have derma what we can do to minimize the visual impact. We're not doing 16 anything ne create greater impacts_ Having said all nnose things, I ~hink those are legal 17 consideranions when you leek an nhe applicable s~andards. 18 ASST TO~,~.I ATTY CORCOR~{: You also believe you're in compliance with the Teiecommunicatiens 19 Act? HR. MULRAI~: We believe we're in complete 20 compliance wi~h ~he Telecommunications Acl an~ S~aEe Environmental Quality Review Act. This 21 particular applicaeion nas been presenned to SHIPO. SHIPO you have in your package has issued 22 a statemen~ of no impact. I ~ink nhan's a co~sideration. So I si~ink on the local and snate 23 and federal level, wa're in complete compliance. CHAIRWOPL~2~ OLIVA: Thank you_ 2e HR. MULRAIN: Thank you. C}L'AIR~O?&;~2{ OLIVA: Being ne ether 2b questions or - BOARD MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'll make the Juli lB, 2004 2 mo t i on_ CHAIR~0HAi~ OLIVA: To close the hearing ~ ' 3 and reserve decision until later. " (See minu~es for resolution_) 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 ~ ,, 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 AUG July 15, 2004 100 1 2 C E R T I F I 0 A T I O N ' 3 ,: 4 I, Florence V. Wiles, Notary_ Public for the 5 S%ate of New York, do hereby certify: 6 THAT the within transcrip~ is a true record of 7 5ne testimony given. 8 I further certify ~hat I am no~ related by 9 blood or marriage, to any of the parties to ~his 10 action; and 11 THAT I am in no way interesUe~ in the ouLcome 12 of uhis matter. 13 iN WITNESS W~EREOF, I }lave ~ereunEo set my 1% h~nd this 15th day of July, 200%. / / 16 / i: 18 /,/ , '.~6 . / L~ ' Florence V. ~,~iles