HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-07/25/1963 SOUTHOLD, L.I., N.Y. Teleohone SO 5-2660
APPEAL BOARD
MEMBEP, S
Roberf W. GiJ]ispie, Jr, Chairm~n
Roberf Bergen
Char es Greg,onis, Jr,
Serge Doyen. Jr.
~red Hulse, Jr.
MINUTES
SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS
July 25, 1963
A regular meeting of the Southold Town Board of Appeals was
held 7:30 p.m., Thursday, July 25, 1963 at the Town Office, Main
Road, Southold, New York.
There were present: Messrs. Robert W. Gillispie, Jr.,
Chairman, Robert Bergen, Charles Grigonis, Jr., and Fred Mulse, Jr.
~sent: Mr. Serge Doyen, Jr.
The Chairman reopened the hearing which was recessed from
May 23, 1963 by reading the application for a special exception,
legal notice of hearing and some portions of the minutes of May
23rd pertaining to Appeal No. 565 of Edwin H. King.
The Chairman stated that although it does not show in the
minutes, he developed at the time that Edwin King has approximately
21 boats of his own, which he feels is a legitimate reason for
requesting a marina for private boats. The main problem seems to
be the question of ownership and the Chairman stated that with Mr.
King agreeing to the postponement it was decided within the two
months time the problera would be resolved.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -2-
July 25, 1963
THE CHAI~: Mr. King built this marina and then sought
permission for a Business zone. It is necessary to have a
zone for a commercial marina. The Town Board, with many people
objecting to the establishment of a commercial "B" zone in that
particular area saw fit to turn town that request which is the
reason Mr. King came to us to see if he could operate a residential
marina. By way of further history the Town Board, if they have
any one single policy, that is rarelyif ever violated~ that is the
development of the waterfront and I think many people agree with
them that it is the primary source of the Town and basically this
Board would be in agreement with the policy of the Town Board in
granting a special exception for a marina. We have never objected
to a marina application as such. Occasionally people point out some
of the hazards involved and we would like to overcome them. There
is a great difference between a residential and commercial marina.
GEORGE McMANN, JR., 238 Main Street, Greenport appearing on
behalf of the application of Mr. King: I request, Mr. Chairman,
that you disqualify yourself in taking any further part iD the
hearing on the grounds that you have publicly made statements
against the interests of the application and publicly claimed
ownership of part of the premises Mr. King's application covers
and you own considerable property ~rectly opposite the site of
the proposed marina.
THE CHAIRMAN: I have not publicly stated that I object to
the marina. I have stated publicly at the Town Board hearing that
I objected to the creation of a Business zone and I still object
to the creation of a "B" zone in that particular area. Howevert
would be very happy to disqualify myself except I think it would
be dodging our responsibility. We are in favor of marinas.
think the main point we are here for is to determine the ownership
to our reasonable satisfaction. We must take into consideration
the conditions surrounding the application and the ownership is
one. If you still think after that statement I should disqualify
myself it certainly is your privilege .
MR. MCMANN: Being the owner of property directly opposite
the property involved would be a person directly interested and
for that reason ifno other you should disqualify yourself.
TPE CHAIRMAN: You caught me before I covered everything I
was going to cover.
Southold Town Board of~Appeals -3- July 25~ 1963
MR. McMANN: If I had known you would make these statements
which are adverse to the applicant I would have made the statements
sooner.
THE CF_AIRMAN: Can I keep from voting?
MR. McMANN: I still think you should disqualify yourself.
MR. DAVID H. GILMARTIN, Southampton: As far as I know
claim has been made by you that~u own any property in the disputed
area. It might be that some part of some of the remarks I made
at the last meeting might have been repeated incorrectly to Mr.
McMann. I did say that there was a question in my mind whether
the title to the questioned area was owned by your grantor?
made no objection as to the south or east side of Narrow River
Road. The only other objection about ownership might be partly
of the other two Edwards property, bounded on the south by the road.
THE CPiAIRMAN: I have no interested in the property under
dispute.
MR. McMANN: You mentioned that there are certain people in
Orient that are intimately interested in the proceedings and no
one is more qualified than yourself that that is a definite reason
for not participating in theproceeding.
T~E CHAIRMAN: What does tha Town Attorney have to say
a~out this?
ROBERT W. TASKER, ESQ.~ Town Attorney: You are not ±nvolved
in ownership of the property which is the question.
THE CHAIRMAN: My objection at the Town Board meeting was
was that in order to make a marina it had to be zoned "B''. It
would seem to me it would offend the entire area, and as c~ner
of property adjoining or .~opposite I submitted an objection to a
commercial marina.
MR. GILMARTIN: Our primary concern is to determine first if
there ms sufficient pro6f to a layman's satisfaction to determine
whether there is a satisfactory amount of proof that Mr. King is
an owner of property and then we can go into the merits of the matter
and if Mr. Gillispie seems disqualified at that time his entering
into the voting should be considered.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -4--
July 25, 1963
MR. McMANN: Our primary concern is to have the Board in a
fair or unbiased condition before any record goes in. 245 feet
opposite the property in question is an interested party.
THE CHAIRMAN: I will disqualify myself from voting and
continue to conduct the hearing in the view to obtaining information
and then the merits or demerits of the c~se. ~
MR. McMANN: I respectfully take exception to the Chairman's
ruling.
THE CHAIRMAN: We are given to understand that the authority
extends only to a reasonable determination of the ownership of the
property. We do not want to be in the position of granting something
on property to which the ownership is in dispute. Frequently it
is almost a requisite action of the Board to grant a special
exception and it would be far better if it were called a required
exception. If an applicant meets the various conditions for a
special exception then the Board could be required to grant such
an exception. First we must determine ownership and believe me we
have not done it before and we are not anxious to get into it. I
have copies of the subpoenas and there is a lot of information ~r.
Gilmartin would like to obtain, and whether we are competent to
rule on it is beside the point. We have to convince ourselves that
Mr. King is the owner of the property. Secondly the merits of the
application itself must be considered. It seems to me we would
get along better if we try to keep personalities out of it and try
to stick to what appear to be the facts. I realize some of the
evidence will be in the nature of hearsay, what someone said and
saw. As the person is testifying try to keep that in mind which
will help everyone. Iwould like to apologize to people I had to
subpoa~a. We knew we had the power to do it but it has never been
used by this Board. I would like to hear from Mr. Gilmartin on
how he would like to present the evidence.
MR. GILMARTIN: Since we claim to be the o~ners, the three
Edwards Estates, of a portion of the property described in the
application, naturally we object to it. The first ground rule
we should follow is to have Mr. McMann present whatever proof he
might have as to the ownership of the property described in the
application. If we are permitted to cross examine the witness
presented by Mr. McMann we might bring out facts to determine
the ownership.
Southold Town Board of Appeals
July 25~ 1963
THE C~IRMAN: The Board is instructed to consider those
that are for a proposal and they speak first, and then those
against last, then cross examination through the Chairman or
members of the Boardo
TOWN ATTORNEY TASKER: The witness shouldbe permitted to be
cross examined by the Board as well as the attorney for the
opposing side.
CHAIRMAN: I think in another hearing on the Sacks labor
camp there was no direct cross examination. However, I can see
no objection to having either Mr. McMann or Mr. Gilmartin cross
examine a witness.
M/R. McMANN: Mr. King has made this application for a special
exception, as you know, in order to operate a marin a for non-
commercial boats on premises in a residential area under Article
III, Section 300, Subsectioa 3A of the Building Zone Ordinance of
the Town Of/Southold. Mr. King has made this application as
owner of the premises described in his application. Submitted
with his original[il application was a certified copy of his deed
and setforth now at this time is Mr. King's ownership to the
premises under Guarantee and Trust Titte ~ompany policy No. 12401~6
which I have and you may look at and inspect it. Mr. King,has
therefore, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, submitted to you such
evidence of title which would in most instances, in fact 10~
of the time, be required by any purchaser of real property in the
County or otherwise, by such title of a reputable title company
to people in Suffolk County. Such title is required by savings
banks to mortgage property, such evidence of title is used in order
to accept dedication of real property for highway purposes. There
is not now pending, nor in the past, in law or equity which would
affect Mr. King's title to the premises.
As Mr. Gillispie has stated, the Board has no jurisdiction to
determine right or title to real property in the Town or anywhere
else. You are aware of the location of the proposed marina and
location of the area. It is a sparsely populated area with only
one or two houses, it is generally farm and meadow lando It was
formerly the Orient dump and is known as the Orient dump.
THE CHA~: You are speaking for the merits of the appli-
cation itself?
Southold Town Board of Appeals -6-
July 25, 1963
MR. McMANN: I state that granting of the special exception
will in no%ay detract from the farm or meadow land, nor affectthe
health, safety or welfare of the residents of the Town of Southold.
The granting of the application will be in harmony with and promote
the Building Zone Ordinance of the Town of Southold.
THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions Mr. Gilmartin.~ would
like to askMr. McMann?
MR. GILMARTIN:
attorney testify.
I would like to have someone besides the
MR. McMANN: I do not see any reason for witnesses myself.
THE CHAIRMAN: Does Mr. King wish to speak?
MR, Mc~: Mr. King is appearing through his attorney, Which
I understand he has a right to do.
THE. CHAIRMAN: I believe at the Town Board hearing Mr. King
had a number of people who were keeping their boats in the marina.
MR. McM~NN: He was aSking for a change of zone from "A"
Residential to "B" Business, where we are asking for something
that is specifically permitted in a residential area as it is
menticned in the Ordinance and is in conformity with the regulations.
I see no reason for calling witnesses.
THE CHAIRMAN:
deed?
MR. GILMARTIN:
the application.
THE CHAIRMAiN:
Do the objectors have a certified copy of the
I do not, however, there is one attached to
Does anyone wish to see the survey and deed?
(There was no response.)
THE CHAIRMAN: Does the marina actually contain itself
within the survey I have before me?
$outhold Town Board ~Appeals -7- July 25, 1963
MR. McMANN: As pointed out at the time of the Town Board
meeting we are asking for a special exception to operate a marina
in a residential area. He-doesq.not get compensation, he has
moorings, bulkheads and docks~ permission for which was approved
by the Board of Trustees.
T~E CHAIRMAN: Have all of the violations before the Board of
Trustees been satisfied?
TOWN ATTORNEY TASKER: I do not knew.
MR. Mc~ANN: They agreed that they would give permission if
he ple~ guilty to the violations which he did and they did.
THE CHAIRMAN: There are a lot of reasons this might be
confused in everyones mind. First because of a projection of a
line. The westerly line of the George'Edwards property cuts
across the survey and present marina~ but it was always my under-
standing that the land the Edwards brothers did Own was jointly
owned but I was not too sure where it was. On one of the old tax
maps it appeared I was paying taxed on the extension of one of those
lines.
MR. GILMARTiN: I would like to call Mr. King.
MR. EDWIN H. KING stepped forward and was duly sworn by the
Chairman.
Question by Mr. Gitmartin: Mr. King, I show you this
application No. 565zdated May 3~ 1963 and ask you if that is
your signature2
Answer by Mr. King: Yes.
Q In this application you say that you wish to reinstate
your application for a private boat marina dated September 13, 1962,
No. 515 in the Board of Appeals file, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q so that what you are asking the Board to consider is
what is said in this application of May 1963 and in the application
of September 13, 19627
SoUthold Town Board of Appeals
-8-
July 25, 1963
A That is correct.
Q Whatever is attached to the application of September 1962
is to be considered by this Board on this application?
A I think there is a misunderstanding.
Q I would like a yes or no answer to the question.
A Yes~ that is the way the application is.
MR. McMANN: I object to the form of the question. The
application should speak for itself.
THE CHAIRMAN: We would consider the May application~ and
the former application withdrawn. TheMay application read~"this
application was withdrawn before hearing due to changes being made
in layout and securing permits from the Town Trustees," in reference
to the previous application. I assume in this application the
changes have been made and are covered by this survey?
MR. McMANN: Except that he has a permit from the Town Trustees.
In September he did not.
MR. GILMARTIN: I will withdraw my question.
Q At the last hearing did I understand that what you want
is a private boat marina?
A A private marina is what has been recommended to me by
Howard Terry and it is through him that I made this application
and he typed it out for me.
Q Do you make a distinction between a private boat marina
and a boat marina ?
MR. McMaX/N: We requested a special exception under certain
pr~visions of theZoning law.
MR. GILMARTIN:
there.
I want to fihd out what he is going to do
THE CHAIRMAN: If this were granted by the Board the Board
has a list of things which they determine they can do; conditions
to be placed on the granting of it.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -9-
July 25~ 1963
MR. GI~TIN: I%ant to find out how correctly I understand
the application.
TPIE CHAIRMAN: I think you do. party boats~ the sale of
gas and supplies to the public is restricted°
MR. GILMARTIN: If my recollection is not too accurate you
can correct me. At the last hearing~ he did not intend to have
anybody's boats in th~ area except his own, of which he had 21.
He was charging no docking or mooring fees. Thais was not a
community use. There were no sales in the way of boat equipment,
mealst gas or anything else. The only sole reason for the marina
was to have a 'place '?at which to moor and dock his own boats.
MR. McMANN: If what Mr. Gilmartin said was correct we would
not be here. If we were to do that we wouldnot be in here in the
first place,and we would get permission from the Town Trustees only.
MR. HULSE: We understood it was for his friends and neighbors
or anyone in Orient. He was not going to make a charge now but
he wanted to charge a small fee to his neighbors. There would be
permanent docking but no fishing boats. That is what I understood.
MR. GILMARTIN: There would be no commercial boats?
MR. h//LSE; Yes, that is correct.
MR. GILMARTIN: Do we understand each other now, Mr. King?
A Yes.
Q Do you intend to make a Charge but have no commercial
boats and no saleS?
A If~I am granted a private marina~ if they want to grant
that they can, they can grant gas pumps and most anything you
would ask for.
T~ CHAIRMAN: One of the conven~ nces of a private marina
is gas and that would be for sale to users of the marina and
people who park there, not to commercial or party fishing boats.
Southo~d ToWn Board of Appeals
-10-
July 25, 1963
MR. McMANN: I would like to state that we are aSking for a
special exception under Article III, Section 300, Subsection 3A
of the Zoning Ordinance and would assume.if that is granted,
Subdivision 8 of that same article and section would be applicable
to the granting of the exception, the uses customarily incidental.
MR. GILMARTIN: Does the Board lay down the limits of the
o~eation in granting this application?
THE C PLA IRMAi~: Yes.
MR. GILMARTIN: Mr. King, when did you direct the placing of
the three buildings on the property?
A ~One was~st moved there last week.
Q Isn't there a building down at the end of a dock which
protrudes out into Hallock~ay?
A
A
permission of ~e Town Trustees.
Q~.What do you use it for?
A It~is not used for anything.
Q What is the red building?
It is on the barge.
Isn't that an enclosed area, roof sides and floor?
Yes. It is a floating barge just tied to spiles there with
A It is a toilet. The large building is a boat house.
Q Did you have a permit to build it before you ~uilt it?
A I would have to aSk before I could tell you.
Q Did you have a permit for the toilet before you built it?
A No.
Southold Town Board of Appeals
-11-
July 25, 1963
Q I was just trying to find out your attitude toward zoning.
MR. McMANN: I object to that statement.
MR. GiLMARTIN: '~e has created a marina for which he has no
permit.
MR~ McMANN: I object~ I suggest that unless Mr. Gilmartin
can prove that Mro King has accepted compensation under the zoning
code this line of questioning should be discontinued°
THE CHAI~: I believe Mr. McMann is correct.' I think Mr.
King's attitude toward zoning is quite well known.
You
MR. GILMARTIN:/ idtdn't intend to do anything further and then
came to the Board after, Mr. King?
A I think I learned a lesson. I think it was done %inintenti~aally~
because I had a dock builder there and when he was there he did certain
things.
Q He did not do it without your telling him did he?
A Absolutely not. Just like the barge.
Q The barge is tied there and not permanent?
A
tied to.
It is just tied there with a permit for the spiles it is
I have a permit to leave it there by the Town'Trustees.
Q Did you have a permit from the Town. Trustees before you
did the dredging?
A Yes, First I had a permit to dredge and fill in inback
of it. A 300 ft. bui~h~ad was to be put in and filled in 100 ft.
baCk of it. I only filled in about 80 ft. in back of it.
in
Q you have filled in a great deal of property behind the
high water mark?
A On the southeast side of Narrow River Road the widest point
is 80 ft. and the narrowest point is 40 ft.
Southold Town Board of Appeals
-12-
July 25, 1963
MR. McMANN: A permit for 300 ft. in length and 100 fto
width was granted. They assumed the bulkhead was 300 ft. in a
line but it was not and that was the permit with the Trustees.
Q That is where you get 3D5 ft. of shoref~nt?
MR. McMANN: Another application was made to have this appli-
cation don~onu to the application put in before.
Q Did you put in the application before you had the deed?
A No.
Q When did you first become interested in the property?
A In 1961, I would say, the thought was in my mind. We
used the property to ice boat for years and I thought I would buy
a little piece of property from George Hallock.
Q You have 21 boats now?
A I am not sUre-~unless I want down and counted them.
three sail boats, two speed boats and several outboards.
who wants to can use them. I even furnish them with gas.
I have
Anyone
Q For how many boats?
A My family uses my boats a loto I have a speed boat and
it takes a lot of gas.
Q You have made ho objection to mooring a boat, nor use of a
boat~ nor use of the facilities?
A
by me.
None whatsoever and 95% of the gas used there is paid for
I have not taken a cent from anybody.
Q You do not claim a right from any deed from the Edwards
family? I want to see if he claims he has any grant himself
from any o~the Edwards family or estates or solely by person or
fact he has a deed from Mr. Hallock.
A That is right.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -13-
Jul~z 25, 1963
Q That is the only s~urce of your title?
A Yes, that is right.
Q Was there a time you discussed purchase of the part of the
property we are now discussing with anyone in the Edwards family?
A Yes.
Q With whom did you discuss the purchase of a portion of the
property enclosed in the application?
A None. The only part I ever discussed was the property to
the east of Mrs. Prince. After I bought from ~orge Hallock it was
not generally known, I asked Mrs. Prince if I could buy a piece to
the east and she said no.
Q You did go to see Mrs. Prince?
A Yes°
Q That was before there was any delineation of your property?
Did you talk with anyone in the E~wards Estate about where your
property line was?
A No.
Q Before you took the deed?
A NO.
Q After you took the deed when this came up akout the line
you went to see someone?
Yes, Mrs. Prince.
Was she the only one?
Yes,.
Did you go to see Judge Tasker?
No, sir.
Southold Town Board of~Appeals
-14-
July 25, 1963
Q Did Mrs. Prince tell you she was one of the trustees of
thc Edwards estate?
A No.
Q Did you discuss this at any other time?
A Only once.
Q Was there anyone else present?
A There was Harrison Demarest, George Ha!lock and Percy
Douglas.
Q Anyone else?
A Just me.
Q What did you talk about?
A There was a general discussion of the boundary line. She
said, "Percy, that is exactly what Henry Tasker told me, our
property was bounded south by Narrow River Road."
Q Did the statements they made at that time to you indicate
that the boundary lines they.were discussing then were inside or
south?
A What we were discussing were north of the road, property
linesof the farming area.
Q Not on the shore front?
A The conversation led into the property across the road.
It did lead into the property line on the shore front?
A There was one man there, Mr. Douglass, who said~ "You
have encroached on Mr. Edwards."
Q Did he explain to you the reason why he said you were
encroaching~ did he say he had worked the property there?
Southold Town Board of Appeals
-15-
July 25~ 1963
A I knew he worked the land but there is no farm there.
Q Is there a fence there?
A No, on the east side next to Demarest. There is a small
piece of property belonging to the Edwards'brothers.
Q Percy.Douglas said you had your building on the Edwards
property? He did not make any explanation as to why he said this?
A We went into a general conversation as to the property lines.
When I said, "Where is the boundary line~" to Percy Douglas, "Where
is the post," Percy said, "I have burned the land off for years and
there is no post there.
Q Did he tell you that while Mr. George ~dwards was alive he
kept that area you now claim to own?
A He kept the place clean. The land is full of garbage today.
It is dumped on the small piece of land of the Edwards property~ way
up on the east side.
Q Where there is a little road going down where people keep
boats~
MR. MCMANN: There is no dispute of any boundary. We have a
deed to the property by a reputable title company.
THE CHAIRMAN: I thought we could resolve the dispute or settle
it but could not grant a special exception without finding out who
owns the land.
MR. McMANN: You requested the copy of the deed to the land.
THE CHAIR~L~N: What constitutes a clear title?
MR. McMANN: Clear title would depend on the justice of a court.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any certificate of title is subject to
interpretation.
Southold Town Board of Appeals
-16-
July 25~ 1963
M~. McMANN: By a justice of the court. As Mr. Gilmartin
pointed out, the question of title has been going on since the
original application tO the Town Board and Mr. Judge Tasker,
being one of the trustees of the Edwards property, would have
been in the courtroom long before this time if it was incorrect.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is not necessarily so. If Mr. Tasker
were not entirely convinced he would hesitate to bring an action
before the court.
MR. McMANN: If Mr. Judge Tasker had had a slight question in
his mind it would be resolved in a court of law long before this°
MR. GILMARTIN: Mr. King, was this discussion you had with
Mrs. Prince and Percy Douglass before or after you put the building
on that end of the property?
~. McMANN: I would object to the question and any further
questions questioning the title to the property before this Board.
THE CHAIRMAN: What does Mro Gilmartin have in mind?
MR. GILMARTIN: That there is a claim and we own a part of
the property and by reason of the ownership object to the granting
of this application. I want to find out when the dispute arose.
Q Mr. King~ when with reference to the time did you have the
discussion with Mrs. Pr~e and Percy Douglass down at the scene?
A The building was there when we went down there that day.
Q Had you, prior to that time, made any visible improvements
on the property including this area?
A We filled in the meadow east of the building.
Q When you were discussing with Mr. Van Tuyl where the
line was did you discuss it with any members of the Edwards estate?
A No. I discussed it with Mrs. Prince and she had gone to
Florida and had Mr. Van Tuyl make a survey in 1961. A line went
from the highway straight to the water.
Q I want to know if the line is the projection of the westerly
line of the easterly line of the Edwards property out to the water?
Southold Town Board of Appeals -17-
July 25, 1963
A That is right.
MR. GI~TIN: That is all I wish to ask Mr. King at this
time, however I may wish to recall him. I would like to call Mr.
Otto W. Van Tuyl now.
OTTO W. -VAN TUYL was called and duly sworn by the Chairman.
Question by Mr. Gilmartin: Have you brought with you the
records called for by the subposna? Details of the Hatlock property
back to 19227
Answer by Mr. Van Tuyl: I believe so.
Q Are you a duly licensed land surveyor in the State of New York?
A Yes, License No. 1582.
Q How long have you been surveying property in the area?
A 53 years. I started in 1910.
Q You started with Wallace Halsey~ is that right?
A Yes.
He owned a plant and you worked for him and acquired the
business and plant?
A Yes.
Q In that plant what was the earliest survey of the Hallock
property?
A As I recall it there was nothing in the plant until the
work I did with my son.
Q What year?
A We have a September 18, 1922 survey. That is my personal
work and the first.work we did on the Hallock farm.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -18-
July 25, 1963
Q I would like to see the detail.
A I haven't it. This is the one on Orchard Street.
Q Have you any detail on which this shows?
Town
A The/tax map. I was asked to bring it.
Q You have no detail in the office on which this shows?
A That is what I said.
Can you explain fo~ the record what detail means?
A Detail is the original drawing made from the field notes
from which a tracing is made and the resulting original tracing,
from which any number of prints can be made.
Q In making up the field notes you go out and survey t~e
property, you look for known points and discoverable points and
the delineation of the owner~ property ~nich you are surveying?
A Yes.
Q When you don't find distinctive marks it is customary
to discuss the boundary line with the owners of the various sites?
A YeS.
Q YOU just don~t go out in the field and run a line because
someone says that is the line?
A No, we don't as we have no further proof than they do.
Q That is the initial work with regard to field work?
A Yes.
Q Where there are distinctive markers such as monuments
you can use those generally speaking?
A I would like to point out, if the adjoining owner ~
available I would like to see him even if we are familiar with
the boundary.
Southold Town Board of Appeals
-19-
July.25, 1863
Q What was the next survey you made on any part of the
Hallock property following 19227
A April 22, 1930 on the property of Lucius Henry Hallock.
Q This is the detail of the 1930 survey?
A Yes.
This shows property on the shore side of Narrow River Road
but west of the property we are discussing here of Ed King's so
that his property, no part of it, is shown on the detail?
A That is right.
Q No part is shown on the 1922 map?
A That is right.
Q What is the next-work on the Hallock property?
A A survey of the Hallock farm we did just recently. The
original tracing is dated 1962.
Q Have you ever surveyed any property shown on the detail
for any member of the Edwards property?
A I think not.
Q Was aDy other surveyor surveying property in this area
25 years ago?
A Frank Overton. He was in Southold and he quit about 25
years ago. I have all the maps and details from Frank Overton
when he stopped surveying.
Q What was the first survey you did of the property of
Edwards?
A The estate of George L. Edwards. I have the detail, the
original cloth tracing and one cloth print.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -20-
July 25, 1963
Q This detail is only a part of the survey, is there any
other detail? This detail is on the north side and the other
detail is on the south side?
Yes.
Q This appears to be a map drawn of the estate of George L.
Edwards.
A That is right.
Q In 1950 and prior to that time you had done an adjoining
piece for the sale of the Edward Edwards property, is that correct2
Do you have the~Edward Edward~survey, the piece that was sold to
Mr. Gillispie?
A It was not listed in the order I was asked to bring.
Q Would you accept that as being a copy of your survey of
the Gillispie property?
A Yes.
Q It is noted on the Shore you have drawn a projected line
straight down the projected westerly line of the George ~dwards
property and the easterly line of the Gillispie property and across
the Narrow River Road in a straight line.
MR. McMANN: I would like the record to read that the property
that Mr. Gilmartin is speaking of as the Gillispie property as the
projection of the line of the property, is the property of the
Chairman of the Board of Appeals.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is correct.
MR. GI~TIN: Mr. Van Tuyl, there appears to be a line on
that survey which is the projection s~uthe~ly of the westerly
line of the Gillispie property.
A
owners ?
I think that is right, there is a line there.
Did you discuss the lines of theproperty with the adjoining
Sothold Town Board of Appeals -21-
July 25, 1963
A No, I think not.
MR. McMANN: When you are speaking of the adjoining owners are
you speaking of the adjoining owners of the Gillispie property or
the property in the survey?
MR. GILMARTIN: The adjoining owners of the Gillispie property.
MR. VAN TUYL: I would like to state that on the map of July
7, 1947 the ink part of it went to Narrow River Road, all of it to
the south of the road is in pencil and was put on during this change
that has come up and Shows the relation to that. These lines were
put on the tracing in pencil. Ink shows heavier than pencil.
Q How long after the tracing was made were the pencil
notations made?
A Just recently. The date of survey is 1947.
Q From what source did you gather the information to project
the line across the road into the water?
A IDon't know- It%as a supposition that the line went to the
bay and the line was put through it.
Q YOU did not bring the detail?
MR. McMANN: By what authority were subpoenas issued by this
Board?
MR, GILMARTIN: Because I do not have authority to do it and
the Chairman of the Board does.
Mr. McMANN: By what authority does the Board of Appeals have
to issue subpoenas?
MR. GILMARTIN: They can compel witnesses forthe documents.
TOWN ATTORNEY TASKER: I believe that if they have the authority
to compel the attendance of witnesses they can compel the witnesses
to bring documents. I did kn°w why this was the exclusive statute
of compelling of witnesses, but off hand I cannot cite you the
section. It is in the Civil Practice Act.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -22-
July 25, 1963
A
office?
A
MR, GILMARTIN: Mr. Van Tuyl, if we adjourn the meeting
for the purpose of the production of themap can you produce it?
A I don't know.
Q Isn't the detail the most important part of the work in
your office? Isn't ~at the basis that shows the fences and every
marker or mark?
A Yes.
Q You said you projected the line in a straight line to the
shore presuming that was the proper thing to do?
A I think so.
Q ~In drawing the map you made for the Town, the Town tax
map, the line was also in a straight projection?
Yes.
That map was made when?
Several years ago.
Before or after the Gillispie survey?
I doubt if I could tell.
You made these tax maps from some records you had in your
Many sources. From records in the office, photo pictures
of the whole town, from other surveys, locations we knew, lines we
thought we had right. No part of it is guaranteed.
Q Primarily from records in your office?
A Primarily from the overall photograph, a mosaic taken
in 1930 which we nfake tracings from. Where we know an owner we
put it on and try to adjust to the map.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -23-
July 25, 1963
Q Is the tax map here of Page 1, School District No. 2?
(The tax map, sheet 1 of School District 2 was produced by
Mr. Wendell Tabor.)
MR, WENDELL TABOR: This is the assessors copy. It is a
duplicate of the Town map.
MR. GILMARTIN: Mr. Van Tuyl, from the fact~you have shown
the areas on the property of Demarest at 35 acres and George
Edwards 16.128 acres and Robert~W. GillisPie 32.065 acres, would
I be correct in assuming you did the Edwards estate and Gillispie
survey prior to the preparation of the map for the Town?
A Prior to the preparation of this version of it, yes.
Q Prior to the preparation of the original?
A Of this, yes.
Q on the shore front you projected two lines of the George
Edwards and Gillispie property to the Bay, somewhere in your office
you had something that Showed it?
A It is an assumption someone in our office made, I do not
know-~hether I made it or the draftsman made it.
Q You did have the surveys of those two pieces before you
made this?
A Down to'Marrow River Road only, not the shore front pieces.
The acreage goes to Narrow RiVer Road.
Q Who owns the piece in front of the Demarest property on the
Bay?
A I don't know.
Q You made this map from surveys?
A The Demarest one we didn't and the Hallock one we did, it
was put on from lines we could see on the aerial map or overall map.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -24-
July 25,
1963
Q Some time after you made the survey of the ~eorge L. Edwards
estate and Gitlispie piece, what was the next survey of the shore
front area adjoining to those properties?
A For' Edwin King, I think.
Q May I see the first survey you made for'Ed King?
A The first, south of Narrow River~Road was included in the
survey of the Hatlock farm, dated November 10~ 1961.
Q Is there any difference between this survey and any later
survey you made for 5~. King?
A We made a more complete and larger map of the whole area.
There was a survey dated June 20~ 1963 to the Guarantee Title
Company. The November 8~ 1962 map shows the location of the
buildings. It was part of the application before the Town Trustees.
Q Was there a survey made for Hr. King which showed the
projection in a straight line of the westerl~ine of the Edwards
parcel?
A I doubt if there was any survey to him. I didn't show
that we went down there and projected the line and marked it on
the ground.
Q Is there anything done on the shore or near the shore in
the way of a marker on that line?
A I doubt it very muCh. There was one, a pipe was driven in.
Q. ~o put it in?
A The field crew and field surveyor.
Q When?
A I think there~was a note in the field book in relation to
that.
Q ~In field book 67, page 34?
A Yes.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -25-
. July25~
1963
Q From what information did you determine the. courses?
A I think that came from the location of a post George
Hallock showed our men as to the location in his field. It was
shown to them in the field. It strikes a ridge and post hole,
the ridge toward the Bay in line from the monument down. The line
says Hallock.
Q Is there anything in the book that says anything about
the line? The pencil notations were put in by whom?
A Ourmen.
Q Why?
A Because it was a reasonable possible location of the line
below the road. It was a projection of the line above. We marked
it for I~r. King.
Q Then you did do that pencil sketch for Mr. King prior to
the time you made up the survey?
A I believe so. It shows the meadow and the lines.
Q You were not on the field party?
A No.
Q Does your notes show who was on the field party?
A No, I have no record of it.
Q There comes a time you deflected thereon and instead of
going straight it goes across to the bend of the road. From what
source other than Mr. King did you make this determination?
A I didn't do the work on that but I believe it was the line
of a post hole and the ridge led in general to that point. You
cannot extend the line of a ridge and~t an exact point. The line
is shown as per George Hallock.
Q So you did not go to any other adjoining property owners
at that time?
Southold Town Board of Appeals -26- July 25, 1963
A No, I did not go there. Mrs° Prince was an adjoining
property owner but she did not know before when I talked to her.
Q Did you know anyone else who had knowledge of ownership?
A I did not know anyone else.
Q Did you know Mr. Tasker was a trustee?
A Yes.
Q Did you go to him?
A No.
Q Did you ta~k to anybody into whose property you were
deflecting the line?
A No.
Q The only person you talked to were the persons who claimed
it was not a straight line, and you had previously assumed the
straight projection of the line was a straight line?
A We gave it as a possible interpretation of the line. I
don't think we assumed anything.
Q You did not give him a survey at any time showing the line?
A We may have, I don't know.
Q Mr. King told you first to project the line out, and then
he told you to deflect it?
A We were told by George Hallock, not Mr. King.
I suggest at this time that we take a ten minute
THE CHAIRMAN:
recess.
MR. GILMARTIN: I would like to reserve the right to ask for
the detail. I have a few more questions of.~Sr. Van Tuyl.
10 MINUE RECESS.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -27-
July 25, 1963
HEARING RESUMED AFTER 10 MINUTE RECESS.
Question by Mr. Gilmartin: W~at is the date on which the
survey party first went out to the King parcel?
Answer by Mr. Van Tuyl: The date shown on the field book
is October 30, 1961. Field book No. 67 ~age 34.
MR. GILMARTIN: I have no further questions of Mr. Van Tuyl.
The one thing which is very important is the detail mentioned on
my subpoena and I would like to require the production of it. I
would like the advantage of seeing that before the Board.
THE C~HAI~fJ~N: AS I understand its Mr. King described at length
procedures they went to to locate the post and line that apparently
the older residents remembered as being part of the Hallock property.
I believe the post was used as a bow line post when they were
dredging up meadow bog to be used on the Hallock property to improve
the land. It was there for quite a while and they had a substantial
post located and that I presume is the post Mr. Van Tuyl is referring
to as establishing the course. The experiment did not help the
land any but quite a bit of bottom was dredged out of there.
MR. GILMARTIN: Do I understand the Chairman to indicate the
placement of a p®st to which to tie a scow for the purpose of
dredging as some indication of title or ownership?
THE CHAIRMAn,: That, and a line of rocks which became a ridge
when they covered the rocks up.
MR. GILMARTIN: I remember the statements of Mr. King at the
last meeting. Mr. Van Tuyl~ is there anything in your field records
that indicates a post, portion of a post, or post hole 35 feet cff
the roadway?
MR. VAN TUYL: There is a 165 ft. area to the shore line and
the post was above that.
MR. GILMARTIN:
post hole was?
There is no indication of where that post or
MR. VAN TUYL: Not exactly. The line went through the post
hole; at what distance we did not take.
July 25, 1963
Southold Town Board of Appeals -28-
MR. GILMARTIN: According to my recollection it w~ sai~at
the last meeting that this post or hole was 25 to 30 feet off the
road. May I see the minutes? The particular wording occurs -when
Mr. King said, "Mr. King explained that the reason he did not feel
it was necessary to have an examination of title was that along
the northeasterly line, over which he now has a road, that road
was built directly over a former canal which was used for drainage,
and a series of about 20 boulders were found there. He knew that
years ago the Hallocks had a stake on their northeasterly line where
they tied the bows of some of their larger boats. He could not fidd
that stake so he had Mr. Roscoe King with a bulldozer, along with
George Hallock and Rod Van Tuyl and the surveying crew start at the
line and push the ground away. As he slowly moved the earth he
found the 20 boulders and then they hit the stake which had rotted
away and grass was growing over it. This stake was 25 to 30 feet
away from the south side of Narrow River Road. He then knew he had
found the boundary of Mr. Hallock's property. Mr. King stated that
he would gladly have the bulldozer come down and push the ground
away again for everyone to see." If the post was 25 to 30 feet from
Narrow River Road it was over 130 feet from the water.
MR. VAN TUYL : It might be. That is what it says. W~nere it
got to be thought of as being in that position I do not know.
MR. GILMARTIN: If it were 25 feet from the road it would be
130 feet from the water and could not be used for a mooring mast
could it?
MR. VAN TUYL: I don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN: It could bes it could have been used inland.
MR. GILMARTIN: That is all, thank you Mr. Van Tuyl. I would
like to have Mr. Van Tuyl report to the Chairman within the next
48 hours to report the findings of the detail which shows the
property of the Edwards family and/or the Gillispie property on the
south side of Narrow River Road. I recollect it was told to me there
is a detail of this nature.
I would like to now call George Whitfield Hallock.
GEORGE W. HALLOCK stepped forward and was duly sworn by the
Chairman.
Southold Town Board of Appeals
-29-
July 25t 1963
Que'stion by Mr. Gilmartin: You are the son of Lucius Henry
Hallock?
Answer by Mr. Hallock: Yes.
Q The former owner of the Hallock farm and meadow after
which the Hallock Bay was named?
A It appears that way on some of Mr. Van Tuyt~s work.
Q You never claimed to own the Bay?
A NQ, I have not.
Q What is your age?
A 71 years.
Q You were never in the boat business personally?
A No.
Q You first worked for your father?
A Yes.
Q You were the co-executor with your mother of your father's
estate~ Lucius Henry Hallock?
A Yes.
The dseds that your grandfather gave to your father~ did
you bring them with you? The second undivided one-half of the
farm?
A I don't know where the original deeds were, it was deeded
to my grandfather so there should be no trouble to look themup.
Q the deed describes the Hallock ownership as being 80 acres?
A Yes, approximately 80 acres in 1902.
Q There was another dedd either before or after the other
one-half interest to your father from your grandfather?
Southold Town Board of Appeals -30-
july 25, 1963
A Yes.
Both deeds are identical?
A I suppose so, but I do not know Where the firSt deed is
and the description is given in that.
Q Would you take my word for it that I have examined both
of the deeds and they are identical?
A Yes~ I would take your word.
Q In 1902 a piece 9.37 acres of the original parcel was
given to you?
A That is not connected with this. It must have been over
80 acres because I~h~e sold some of it and I still have approx-
imately 80 acres. It is just an approximation.
Q Did your father sell any of his land other than that which'
was deeded to you?
A No.
Q You qave a description of the property to Mr. Reeve who
settled your father's estate?
A I did not give him any definite description.
He went by what you showed him?
A I didn't bring any description of the property other than
the deeds to the property and the estimation as I remember.
Q Isn't this your signature and your mothers on a document
which is a copy of a portion of the transfer tax motion in your
father's estate?
THE CHAIRMAN: What way does this connect?
MR. GI~TIN: 79 acres is in the description he obv~dusly
gave to the attorney which his father owned.
A This is Rn approximation, a lot of this came from Mr.
Jaeger who was foreman and running the farm before he retired.
This list was of things on the farm and made up by Mr. Jaeger.
SoUthold Town Board of ApPeals -31-
July 25, 1963
Q The information you gave Mr. Reeve was given by you.
A I took it and gave it to him but I did not make up the
list.
(The copy of the notice of motion, petition, equipment list,
and description of real estate was offered in evidence by Mr.
Gilmartin.)
F~. McIf~NN: I object to it going into evidence. It is
irrelevant and immaterial. It is not evidence of title.
THE CHAIRMAN: If it shows anything about this property it
should go into the record.
MR. HALLOCK: As far as the Board is concerned they Should
accept the proof of title the savings banks are willing to accept.
It is going far afield of the province of this Board.
MR. GILMARTIN: Mr,Hallock, you sold some property out of this
property you inherited from your father o~er than the King piece?
A Yes.
Q How much?
A I sold the property covered by the map, the meadow property.
Q About 50 acres?
A The lower lot on the southwest side of Narrow River Road.
It is all shown on the survey.
Q That is the one Mr. Van Tuyl said showed no part of the
property in question?
A That is right, it isn't even adjoining it.
Q You kept the farm?
A 4 acres southwest of Narrow River~Road, that went with the
meadow land shown on the survey and thatlot of 4 acres was a part
of the farm.
Q You farmed that piece2'
Southo!d Town Board of Appeals
-32-
July 25, 1963
A Yes, Mr. Demarest farmed it,
Q Did you se~l any of the farm acreage?
A I sold to Mr. Preston about a little over an acre of
upland in the farm area.
It is not on the survey of the meadow land?
A No.
Have you sold to anyone else~
A No, I believe that is all.
Q Did you acquire any property adjacent to the farm area,
any of the Edwards boy's property?
A No, not that I know of.
Q Did you get a deed from them?
A No.
Q From any of the Terry heirs on the shore front property
we are talkingabout?
A No.
Q All you have is what you inherited from your father?
A Yes.
Q You just recently had a survey of your property?
A Yes, last fall.
Q Is that the survey you had made by Mr. Van Tuyl to show
the Hallock farm?
A Yes.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -33-
July 25, 1963
Q Of that property there are three parcels, one bounded
by Platt Street containing 7.918 acres?
A Yes.
Q The main section including the pond, all of which is
north of Narrow River Road and is 67.652 acres?
A Yes.
Q And on the other side of Narrow River Road, exclusive
of the King piece, of 3.75 acres?
A I!believe3~SOo
Q That is a little more than you told Mr. Reeve you had at
the time of your father's death.
A That is right.
Q I thought he had 80 acres and he sold you nine?
A That probably did not include the meadow land with the
pond and the orchard and buildings.
Q It says in the affidavit,"a farm with about 79 acres,
with residences and outbuildings of wooden structure." "All
that piece of land with the buildings and improvements thereon,
bounded north by Tabor; east by Bay; South by'Orchard Street, and
west by Terry Estate." And parcel two contains about 50 acres,
bounded north and east by Hallock, south by Bay, and west by Douglass
and others.
A If you are trying to say that I believe the m~adow land
was included in the 80 acres~ that is not true. At that time I
knew very little about the facts and figures.
Q You knew you were signing a paper that would be presented
to the Court?
A My lawyer, Harry Reeve~ told me to get an appraisal of
the farm and I got it and took it to Mr. Reeve and he drew it
up and I signed it.
Southold Town Board or, Appeals -34-
July 25, 1963
Q The appraiser didn't ask you What you owned?
A I don't think the appraiser came to me and asked me. I
think Mr. Reeve got the appraisers. Mr. Jaeger knew all about
things there and they asked him the questions.
Q He was foreman of the farm and in the employ~'ent of George
W. Hallock & Son?
A Yes.
Q Did he run a tractor and buy potato seed and supplies?
A Yes.
While your father was alive?
A Yes.
Q Your father showed him the lines of the property?
A My father had a diagram of each lot and a diagram of the
entire farm. They were cardboard pieces cut to the shape and scale
of each lot. We have probably 30 or 40 diagrams and each is
different.
Q Is there any point of any diagram you made that shows the
piece we are concerned with tonight?
A No.
Q Did you know the lines of these properties?
A All t knew was what I had gotten from my father.
Q You didn't know where the lines were of the various
pieces you plotted out on these diagrams?
A No, I did not know for sure.
Q There was no diagram of the property we are talking about
tDnight?
A No, I have never seen any.
SouthO~d Town Board of Appeals -35-
July 25, 1963
Q Did you ever see a deed that described the line going
out on an angle instead of a straight line out of the Gillispie
propertY?
A No.
Q What do you remember about the post?
A Years ago I went out on the Bay in a row boat and I
remember a post on the water front and a row of rocks which
have always understood marked the boundary line on the shore
between my father's property and the Edwards~ property.
Q Is that post still there?
A I don't know. It wasn't very tall.
extended above an exceptionally high tide.
post.
I am not sure it
It was not a fence
Q Was it near the shore?
A Yes.
AG high tide it might be covered?
A I don't know for sure, I just know therewas a post there
definitely.
Q Did you hitch your row boat to it?
A I might have, I am not at all sure. I rather think I did.
Q You didn't put the post there and you didn't~ake it away?
A I certainly did not.
Q Do you know where the spot is now?
A I don't know for sure. I looked for it a number of times
in recent years and I could not find it.
Q Did you see any trace of it at any time?
Not in recent years.
Southo~d Town Board of Appeals
-36-
July 25, 1963
Q Would you say you know the Edwards boys pretty well?
George and his two brothers?
A Not too well personally, they were a generation before
Q Did they have boats on the water?
A I don't think I ever saw them in a boat. To the bestt
of my knowledge I have never seen George or Edward in a boat.
Q Was the post surrounded by rocks?
A In a line going from the shore toward the road.
Q What was east of the post? ~
A To the east was Mr. George Edwards' property.
Q What physical things?
A There was a row of rocks but I don't know how far it
extended.
Q Your father was in the boat business?
A He didn't have a boat business, he had a farm and there
were boats.
Q .And you used to use some of them?
A I used a row boat mostly.
Q When people moor boats 4o they go out to the end of an
exposed point or toward shore?
A
A
there was the Edwards brothers property.
dumping on their property.
I would not know.
There was quite a lot of dumping in the whole area?
Mr. George'Edwards owned the property to the east and
They would not allow
$outhold Town Board of Appeals -37- July 25, 1963
Q they used to have a sign and fence, is that right?
A Yes, a sign. I don~t know about a fence.
Q On the shore side of Narrow River Road next to the disputed
area?
A When we stopped dumping on our side I had signs put up
myself.
(Mr. Gilmartin requested Mr. Wendell Tabor, Southoid Town
Assessor to show his record card of the Hallock property.)
MR. GILMARTIN: Where is the old card?
MR. TABOR: There is no old one. We have just started this
card system within the last three years and this is the only card.
MR. GILMARTIN: I would like to see the cards of the Edwards
property.
(Mr. Tabor presented three cards.)
MR. GILMARTIN: Do you have any other card on the Hallock
property?
MR. TABOR: I have one for Edwin H. King.
MR. GILMARTIN: This card is for a 1½ acre piece, $2200
land~ $1100 improvements and a total of $3300 to Eo H. King,
Orient° This piece is bounded north by Narrow River Road, east
by Hallock Bay, south by George Hallock and West by Narrow River
Road.
There is a card with an assessment to the George L. Edwards
Trust, c/o Henry Tasker, Greenport, south by Hallocks Bay and
west by R. W. Gillispie. It is one acre. Does that indicate the
area of the piece?
MR. TABOR: Yes. One acre is an estimate.
M~. GILMARTIN: There is a separate assessment on a 12.36
acre piece to the George L. Edwards Trust, c/o Henry Taskerr
Greenport, bounded north by Hale, east by Wilkins, south by Keogh~
and west by Russell Tabor.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -38-
July 25~
1963
There is a third card for the George L. Edwards Trust, c/o
Henry Tasker, Greenport, bounded north by~ohn Appelt, east by
Harrison Demarest~ Sr., south by Narrow River Road, and west by
Robert Gillispie, containing 16.12 acres.
Are those the only three assessments you have for the George
Edwards Estate property?
MR. TABOR: Yes.
MR. GILMk%RTIN: I have no further questions of Mr. Hallock
at this time. I would now like to call Mr. Percy Douglass.
PERCY DOUGLASS was called and duly sworn by the Chairman.
Question by Mr. Gilmartin: What is your age?
Answer by Mr. Douglass: 70 years.
Q Have you in your lifetime been acquainted with the
George Edwards property and George Edwards?
A Yes.
Q What is your relationship regarding the property?
A From 1940 to 1948 we were partners. I ran his farm from
1940 to 1948 when he died.
Q Did you in the course of running his farm have an opportunity
to observe the contour of the land of his property?
A Yes.
Q ~Did you observe the property on the opposite side of
Narrow River ROad which we are speaking tonight?
A Yes.
Q After his death did you continue to work for the Edwards
Estate?
A I rented the property in my own name.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -39-
July 25~ 1963
Q What did you observe in the eight years you were with Mr.
Edwards in reference to the property on the shore side of Narrow
River Road?
A Mr. Edwards said that when any kind ---
MR. McMANN: I object to what Mr. Edwards said.
A I observe he owned to the water the width of his farm.
He kept it cleaned up and I used my help and as they told you
there was no dumping until after I left. He had a fence so you
could not drive in there and dump.
Q The fence was on the shore side?
A Yes.
Q How long?
A The width of his place from 1940 to 1948.
Q Please dsscribe the fence.
A It was a post and wire on it so that no one could drive
in on the property. There were signs that said "no dumping."
Q Did you observe anyone tying boats there?
A The scallopers came in on the Edwards and Demarest side.
Q Did you ever see any boats ~ up to any posts there?
A Of late, yes.
Q During the eight years?
A They were not tied they were pulled up on the beach.
Q Did you ever observe any post toward the water in the
projection of the Edwards property?
A No, because Mr. Edwards always sa~they drew a line from
the Main Road to the Bay.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -40-
July 25, ~963
Q Did you do anything about keeping the property clear
yourself?
A My men did. They cleaned it up in the spring and burned
it off and tried to keep it clear. He did when he was living.
Q Have you been down to observe~this property, Mr. Douglass?
A Yes, I am there every day. I rent the land and farm it.
Q Did you at any time recently observe any obstruction on
this property you kep~ clean for M_r. Edwards?
A Only when Mr. King dumped fill and has two old boats there.
I was there when they were surveymng and his toilet%~s mn the
middle of the line where Mr. Van Tuyl was going to put a post.
He put an iro~ post on the street and flag.
Q WaS~that the straight projection of the Edwards-Gillispie
1 ine ?
A )/es.
Q t show you a survey by Otto W. Van Tuyl ~ Son and ask
you if that is the approximate line you are talking about?
A Yes, that is the line where he put it last winter.
MR. GILMARTIN: I offer the survey in evidence.
~ When they got to the little toilet they had to go out,
in and out, and on down, and drove an iron pipe in the water.
It wasn't frozen and he had the stakes to put in there.
Q Is that the approximate line that was used in burning
the area off and keeping it clean?
A Anything straight from the Main Road to the water.
THE CHAIRMAN: His or his brothers?
A His. That property was divided right straight. He~
was always proud that he owned from the Sound to the Bay. That
was Mr. George Edwards.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -41-
J~ly 25, 1963
THE CHAIRMAN: Do you recall this row of stones?
A No.
THE CHAIRMAN: Have you ever seen it?
A No.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hallock, what was the row of stones for?
MR. HALLOCK: Ipresume to mark the boundary line. I understood
it that way from my father.
THE CHAIRMAN: And Mro King, proceeding on the assumption
that was a straight line proceeded with the marina?
MR. HALLOCK:
with the stones.
on the land.
That line was changed because he found the post
From time to time the road department put dirt
MR. KING: When George Haliock cameback from Florida I had the
survey from the Main Road to the water. George said, "we go
further east than that." Then we had Warren Vail and we probed
and I said, "The only way we can find the property line, Mrs.
Price was there, is to get-Rosco with the bulldozer."
MR. HALLOCK: I said I thought the post was further w.hS~n it
could not be found.
MR. K/NG: Warren Vail said they used to tie a noose to it.
MR. HALLOCK: It was my feeling the post was there
before my father used to tie a bbat to it.
MR. DOUGLASS: Ed said,to Mildred, "I know that the road is
over there." Mildred said, she was going to have a survey and I
said, "Tell me when there is going to be a survey and I will move
the road off there." Why does Van T~yl change somethingwith
pencil marks?
MR. KING: After we cleaned that up and located the spile
and that has been burned off and it is still there today~ I got
Van Tuyl back again and he talked tO George and Van Tuyl made a
new survey showing an additional 25 ft. on the road. You can't
change it, it has been there.
Southold Town Board of Appeals -42-
July 25, 1963
THE CHAIRMAN: How does this account for the fact Mr. George
Edwards has been permitted over many years to sort of take care
of this?
MR. KIN~: He never did,
MR. McMANN: I offer in evidence a certified copy of the deed
of Lueius Hallock which includes ~ome of your property and containing
a sketch which we agree is not a survey but does shc~ a line 280 ft.
This is 57 years old, is dated 1906 from Lucius Henry Hallock and
Mary Hallock to Georg~ and Edward Edwards.
MR. GILMARTIN: The Board must denythis application. I
read to you from a decision of Chad Homes, Inc. VS. Board of Appeals,
5 Misc. 2nd, Page 20~ Appears in t~9 N.Y. Suppl. 2nd~ Page 383,
Feb. 15, 1957, 385 Suppl. starting with 1, 2. (Mr. Gilmartin
read from the above.)
(A conference was suggested between Mr. McMann and Mr.
Gilmartin to discuss the settlement of this matter and it was
agreed upon.)
THE CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn this hearing at this time
and resume again at 8:45 P.M., Thursday{ August 8, 1963~
On motion of Mr. Gillispie, seconded by Mr. Bergen, it was
RESOLVED that the Board of Appeals set 8:00 P.M. (E.D~S.T.),
Thursday, August 8~ 1963, Town Office, Main Road~ Southold, New
York as time and place for hearing upon application of James
Wasson, Peconic Bay Boulevard, Mattituck, New York, for a variance
in accordance with the Zoning Ordinance, Article III~ Section 303,
and Article X~ Section 1000A~ for permission to divide property into
two lots with insufficient frontage and area. ~ Location of property:
(private road)~ North side East Legion Aven~e~ Mattituck, New York~
bounded north by A. W. Boutcher Estate, east by. Charles Weber,
south by East Legion Avenue~ and west by Cecelia Klein.
Vote of the Board: Ayes:- Mr.. Gillispie, Mr. Bergen~ Mr.
Gr~gonis, and Mr. Hulse.
Southold Town Boar~ of Appeals -43-
July 25, 1963
On motion of Mr. Bergen, seconded by Mr. Grigonis, it was
RESOLVED that the Board of Appeals set 8:15 P.M. (E.D.S.T.),
Thursday, August 8, 1963, Town Office, Main Rca d, Southold, New
York as time and place for hearing upon application of Margaret
Saltus, 14 Gramercy Avenue, Yonkers, New York, for a special
exception in accordance with the Zoning Ordinance, Article IiIs
Section 306, for permission to reduce front yard setback on a
corner lot. Location of prgperty: southeast side of Bayview
Drive and Knoll Circle, East Marion, New York, part of Lot 38
on map of Gardiners Bay Estates, bounded north by Bayview Drive,
east by Lot 15 - Dorothy K. Smith, south by Lot 37 - Charles F.
Atz, and west by Knoll Circle.
Vote of the Board: Ayes:- Mr. Gillispie, Mr. Bergen, Mr.
Grigoniss Mro Hulse.
On further motion it was RESOLVED that legal notice of hearings
be published in the official newspaper, The Suffolk Times on
Friday, August 2, 1963.
Vo%e of the Board: Ayes:- Mr. Gillispie, Mr. Bergen~ Mr.
Grigonis, and Mr. Hulse.
On motion of Mr. Gillispie, seconded by Mr. Grigonis, it was
RESOLVED Th~ the minutes of July 18~ 1963 be approved as
submitted.
Vote of the Board: Ayes:- Mr. Gill~ pies Mr. Bergen~ Mr.
Grigonis, and Mr. Hulse.
The next meeting of the Southold Town Board of Appeals will
be held 7:30 P.M., Thursday, August 8s 1963s Town Office~ Main Roads
Southold, New York°
Meeting adjourned at 12:15 P.M.
AP PRL)'V F--g
Respectfully submitted,
Judith T. Boken, Secretary