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HomeMy WebLinkAboutStorage & Sale of Vehicles 2000JANUARY 3, 2001 5:06 P.M. ON A PROPOSED "LOCAL LAW IN RELATION TO STORAGE AND SALE OF VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS, CHAPTER 92, ARTICLE IX, VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC, OF THE CODE OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD". Present: Supervisor Jean W. Cochran Justice Louisa P. Evans Councilman William D. Moore Councilman John M. Romanelli Councilman Brian G. Murphy Councilman Craig A. Richter Town Clerk Elizabeth A. Neville Town Attorney Gregory A. Yakaboski SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We will move on to the 5:06 hearing. Louisa, do you want to read this one? JUSTICE EVANS: "NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that there has been presented to the Town Board of the Town of Southold, Suffolk County, New York, on the 12th day of December, 2000 a Local Law entitled "A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold." NOTICE IS FURTHER GIVEN that the Town Board of the Town of Southold will hold a public hearing on the aforesaid Local Law at the Southold Town Hall, 53095 Main Road, Southold, New York, and hereby sets 5:06 p. m. Wednesday, January 3, 2001, as the time and place for a public hearing at which time all interested persons will be heard. The proposed "A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold" which includes the following: LOCAL LAW NO. 2000 A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold § 92-63 STORAGE AND SALE OF VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS A. It is hereby declared to be unlawful to park or display vehicles or purposes of storage or sale on or within one hundred (100) feet of the lines of any state or county highway or roadway within the unincorporated portions of the Town of Southold or within two hundred fifty (250) feet of any intersection of the aforementioned highways unless otherwise provided in this Code. vehicle sale and store-PH 2 B. Vehicles owned and/or operated by federal, state, county, or town government or agencies thereof or operated by any other municipality, including fire districts, shall be exempt from the provisions of this section. C. Exception: Nothing contained herein shall prohibit the owner of a motor vehicle from selling same from the driveway of the owner's single family residence. BY ORDER OF TItE SOUTItOLD TOWN BOARD OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD, DECEMBER 12, 2000." The Planning Board has sent some correspondence. They suggested, recommended the change that we add, vehicles owned by commercial dealerships shall be exempt from the provisions from this section. I had proof that it was published in the Suffolk Times, and posted on the Town Clerk's Bulletin Board. There is no further correspondence beyond the Planning Board. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. You have heard the reading of a Local Law in relation to storage and sale of vehicles on highways. Is there anyone that would like to address the Town Board? Mr. Lizewski, and then Mr. Penny. JOE LIZEWSKI: As an individual I think that, again, the rural quality of life issue always comes in because it is the thing that wins elections. We always talk about the rural quality of life. I think some of these things that are sold on the side of the road go very quickly, and I think a lot just get passed around the community. For the most part I don't think most local people mind doing that. I know that I have a piece of property that has a lot of visibility, and people always come to me, and ask me if they can put a vehicle on it. Usually with four or five days it is gone. Maybe you can consider since there is no other place for local people to do that, except in parking lots, which is what is going to happen. You are going to find them in your Mattituck parking lot. You are going to find them in your King Kullen parking lot or anyplace that is business zoned that they can get away with that, and constantly, iMaybe if people could come in, and much like you have a permit to get a yard sale, you can have it for a week, or five days, and to do it, and get it over with, but I just don't know where these things always come from. I know I sat on the Scenic Road Committee about two years ago, and a guy from Port Washington stood up, was sitting next to me, and he said to me, boy, I want to get this Scenic Road thing through because we get the Scenic Road thing through we can stop people from parking their cars and selling them on the Main Road. So, you know those ideas are always out there. You don't know where this law came from because again it came through as a memo at a Town Board meeting, so I have no idea where the origin came from, because it didn't through a legislative meeting, it came, again, in the form of a memo, the first time I saw it anyway. You wonder how these things really come about, and how much harm they really do, but that rural life that you see as you go upstate or you particularly come out here, we seem to continually nip away at, and take away some of that rural life, that you may think is not so rural now, but it certainly has been a part of the environment for a long time. People sell lawnmowers, and there is always stuff that people pick up, and basically put around. So, I think this is another one of those laws to me, it is just out of the blue, and it is not just going to...may add to some people, but it is going take also from the other side. Again, there is no other place to do that, and a lot of the people who live out here, you know, you go down to the place that they want to buy a new vehicle, and the guy says, I am only going to give you two, and he says, well, gee whiz, I think I can get more than that if I sell it outfight. So, you know, it is part of the way we have always done life, and it is sort of sad to see these kind of laws come to the platform. Thank you. vehicle sale and store-PH COUNCILMAN MURPHY: Joe, just to mention one thing, we talk about complaints and everything, I did not write this, but I did have many complaints over the past year of the section in front of the North Fork Bank. I counted one day nine vehicles lined up there for sale. Not is the bank parking lot. JOE LIZEWSKI: That is one person, though. That is one piece of property mean again if you want to attack the problem I think that is one person. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Same from Boissaeu Avenue, Joe. I drove fi:om Boisseau Avenue to Peconic Lane, nineteen cars parked along the road for sale. We have one gentleman in town that buys them at auctions, and brings them in and sells them. JOE LIZEWSKI: I don't think that is right. It is a business. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Down in Montgomery Village, Maryland, what they do is take them to the schools every Saturday, and you can park your car for sale at the school, and that is where people go to expect to buy a car. JOE LIZEWSKI: tfwe could provide a place for it, it would be nice, but like I said you are just going to see these things in our parking lots, and I don't think it is going to change people trying to sell them. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We have had many, many, many complaints. JOE LIZEWSKI: I just have never heard of any. BILL LIEBLEIN: When I told my wife I was going to be coming home late, because I was coming to the hearing because it was about selling used cars, she said, you know, sometimes when you go down the road the car is right up on the comer, and she mentioned one on Cox Lane, and she says, it almost looks like the car is getting ready to pull out, so I have listened to Joe. My initial read of this is it looks a little restrictive, but I agree. Sometimes there is a really junk car that just sits there, and sits there, and sit there, and doesn't more in four or five days. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I can show you some on the North Road have been there five years. BILL LIEBLEIN: If someone is going and buying them at auction, and bringing them in, if you are going to be allowed to do it should be for your own personal vehicle that you, Dick, wouldn't give me enough money so you are going to sell it yourself. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Usually we park the ones we want to sell in our own driveway. BILL LIEBLEIN: I would suggest that you approach this particular new ordinance or law, whatever, in the same manner as the previous one. You are getting some input here. (Tape change) If is some other avenue, as you mentioned, at a school or somewhere there is a place where it all takes place at one time, you know that is where you go to look for the cars. I would encourage the Board to look at other things that are maybe not as restrictive, or if the car had to be maybe not 200 feet back, but 100 feet, or vehicle sale and store-PH 4 whatever it is, maybe at least forty or fifty feet, just if you would go over this again before you just pass it as you presently have it. COUNCILMAN MOORE: Can I just make one comment here? There is a copy of this law floating around, and it is not the final version. It is in the legal notice that there was an exception ora driveway in your own home. That is in there. That floating around was a copy of the resolution that didn't include that. It was those who were bringing out of other neighborhood and plunking down on the main thoroughfare, like up in Mattituck to be seen. Jean had talked about the centralizing locations put in town. You could go up on Saturday fi.om nine to five, and there will be twenty cars available. COUNCILMAN PENNY: Good afternoon. George Penny. I guess I have a copy of the wrong law also, so it is the intent of the Board that if you want to sell your own vehicle in your yard, or in your driveway, whether it be a boat, or whatever, it is no problem. Okay, let's go one step further. My employees come to work. One of the most popular places to sell cars is right in front of Penny Lumber by my employees when they have something to sell. Now, it is business property. It is commercially zoned. We have parking. We have everything else available, and if an employee, and I have always allowed my employees, if they want to take a car, and leave a for sale sign on it, that they are allowed to sell it off the premises of my property. According to this could not happen. I would guarantee you that we sell probably somewhere between three and six cars a year right off the Main Road. I don't know how you are going to enfome something like this, because if somebody drives from spot to spot, if they have a car with a for sale sign, and you drive by my commercial property, and you see a for sale sign there, you are going to come and cite me, or are you going to come in and cite my employee? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Whomever the car is registered to, I guess. We are going to look for first, George. You are in the used car business. GEORGE PENNY: Absolutely not. My employees, that could park anywhere, they could park in front of King Kullen, and a sale could transact with private individuals in front of the King Kullen because they had a for sale sign in their car. I don't see how you are going to be able to police that. I think that if someone has business property, I think if you want to protect residential property and residential streets, and all that, that is one thing, but if it is a parking lot in a commercial sector, where an individual is selling his own car. I am not talking about a conglomeration of twenty people getting together, and all parking down at the North Fork Bank parking lot, and opening up a used car lot on Sundays. But, I do find curious that these restrictions are coming about for a town that does not allow a used car lot, and I refer you to your sections of the Code that say, sales of used vehicles or boats shall be conducted only as accessory to the sale of new vehicles or boats, so in any event where are these people supposed to go? If you don't allow a used car lot in the town, and you are telling people all the places that they can't sell vehicles where are they supposed to go? Food for thought. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, George. ARNOLD BLAIR: Arnold Blair, again. I have a question. Do I understand this law as drawn is to also prevent fi'om businesses on the Main Road from selling cars off their lot? COUNCILMAN MOORE: I think that was comment made by our Planning Board. vehicle sale and store-PH 5 ARNOLD BLAIR: Because I understand Mr. Penny saying that this law would prevent him from allowing cars to sold offofhis property. JUSTICE EVANS: He is not a car dealer. What the Planning Board's comments were vehicles owned by commercial dealership. ARNOLD BLAIR: What my question was, I am asking for clarification. Are you saying that a business on the Main Road that is business zoned would not be allowed to sell a car if selling cars is not the primary business. COUNCILMAN MOORE: That is the point that George has made. We hadn't even thought about the employees. ARNOLD BLAIR: I would just like to give an example. I sold a car this summer. It was a fairly expensive car. It was a restored 1956 Thunderbird, and it was well in access of $30,000. I couldn't put it in my driveway, because I live towards the end of Vanston Road, which is a dead end road, which gets no traffic. I prevailed upon one of the businesses in town, an auto body shop, if he would put it out fi.ont. I took ads in the Suffolk Times, and the News-Review. I took ads in the Easthampton, Southampton papers. I created a web site, and advertised it all over the Intemet. I got no responses, but it was sitting on the Main Road at a business, and somebody fi.om Greenport bought it. He said, gee, we were driving down the Main Road, we saw the car, my wife feel in love with it, and we concluded the transaction, so from a personal point of view I benefited from the ability to do that. COUNCILMAN MURPHY: As I read it, it is not finding putting at an auto body shop, or sitting in a parking lot doing shoPPing, and having a for sale on it. The area I was talking about, if you know where North Fork Bank headquarters is. This wasn't even in the parking lot. ARNOLD BLAIR: It is out on the Main Road. I have seen it. COUNCILMAN MURPHY: They have them lined up there on the shoulder of the road. ARNOLD BLAIR: My comment is, I understand your intent, and I think your intentions are good to prevent people fi.om nmning a business that way, or fi.om having an accumulation of cars perhaps in front of the North Fork Bank, but there is some fine lines that I don't think you should cross. Personally, my feeling is, as one of the other previous gentlemen commented, I think it is part of the rural character. When I see occasional cars or farm implements for sale on the side of the road when you pass a farm, I don't find it object ional, and I am as interested in the scenic vistas as anyone, believe me. I think, my point is don't go overboard. Don't prevent people fi.om being able to sell their vehicles or other toys. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Like Thunderbirds. We get your point. STEVE YOUSIK: Good evening, again. Steve Yousik fi.om Mattituck. About a year to two years ago 20/20 or Dateline, or somebody, ran a whole story on guys who have used car licenses, go to auctions, buy these cars, put them on the side of the road, and pretend to sell them as an individual, and not as a business, and they are scamming a lot of people, who are thinking they are buying someone's personal vehicle sale and store-PH 6 car, and they are not. I think the town should try to prevent something like that happening. I object to when I go down the street and there is four cars on the comer, and they are parked up on the grass. You should not be limiting somebody from parking it in a legal parking space on the side of 48 on the side of the Main Road, on the side of Cox Lane, if it is legal to park there, and you are a taxpayer, and you want to park your car there, take your chances with it sitting there twenty-four hours a day with a for sale sign, park it. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: If it is not registered. STEVE YOUSIK: If it is registered. If I have two vehicles that are registered to my name I am still under the limit for having a used car license in the State of New York, and that is what we should prevent. How are you going to tell the cop that I am driving my car around for two weeks trying to sell it, and I parked in front of North Fork Bank, or parked in front of Waldbaums? How are they going to know whose care and where it is, you know? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: If you see a car them at eight o'clock in the morning, it is still there at eight o'clock in the morning. You can tell the difference. STEVE YOUSIK: What if someone works on Love Lane, and decides they want to park there, and they are there every day of the week, six days a week. One day they are parked one spot. Next day they are parked in another spot. How are you going to know? The guy has a legitimate right to go to work every day, and park his car in front of where he works, but when they are parked up on the grass, blocking the view from making tums and stuff in traffic, then the Town should do something about it. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Yes, sir? JOE FINORA: Joe Finora from Mattituck. I think this matter could probably be easily addressed because it is easy to tell you who has a car, and who is driving to work with it, and is driving to work with it, and leaving it outside his place of employment, and leaves and drives the same car home as compared to someone that leaves a car in fi'ont of a business establishment for two, three, four days. I think in the case George Penny brought up, if his employees drive to work with a car that is for sale, and they leave it on his property, and they are taking the car home at night, I see nothing wrong with that. There is a distinct difference between someone that leaves a car there for two or three days, and tries to sell it, as opposed to someone that just drives wherever he happens to go, he parks it, conducts whatever business he has to do, he completes his business, and then, you know, drives off. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. So, I think that is something that could be easily addressed. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. JIM BITSES: The Constitution gives everybody the right, as Bill will back me up, a free expression. Putting a sign on your car, whether it is for sale, or for whatever, is free expression, and if you curtail that free expression you law may be unconstitutional. What we have is a bunch of mosquito bites, people selling their cars here and there, individuals. We are not talking about commercial sales. Why don't we just let them alone, and let them sell their vehicles, one here, and one there, as long as it is not commercial, as long as they themselves own that vehicle, and they have, as I said, the right of flee expression. They can put a sign in, or on, or anywhere on that vehicle, saying that it is for sale, and vehicle sale and store-PH 7 they cannot be stopped, so that is my suggestion. Drop the whole thing. It is mosquito bites. Let the people sell their cars. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jim. Sir? ERNEST SCHNEIDER: Emie Schneider. I have been out here since '74, '73, and to me it has always been part of the charm of the North Fork. On occasion it gets overdone, and it doesn't make me feel good but I am not one of these people who say, not in my backyard. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: That's good to know. Where do you live? I am looking for someone like you. ERNEST SCHNEIDER: Okay. I will give you my address aRerwards. In any case I have sold a few vehicles off of the North Road, not on my property, but with permission of the owner of the property. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: But you are on private property? ERNEST SCHNEIDER: Oh definitely, I am on private property. Now, is that allowed if I have permission from the owner to sell something? Now, what does a vehicle consist of?. Is a vehicle a boat, a trailer, a car, a mack, a motor home? Are they all considered vehicles? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: The way this reads is storage or sale on or within 100 feet of the lines of any State or County highway, or roadway within the unincorporated portions of the Town of Southold, so on and so forth. ERNEST SCHNEIDER: In other words you can do it in a residential area, but you can't do it on the North Road, or on 25? COUNCILMAN MURPHY: If you have a home there. The exception is, nothing containing here'm shall prohibit the owner of a motor vehicle from selling same from his driveway, or owner's single- family residence. ERNEST SCHNEIDER: Where I live I am up at the end of nowhere. There is no way I can sell anything. No one would ever see it, except the deer. I would be upset if that privilege to me to talk to a friend of mine who has a piece of property, and I have had good success. It usually doesn't stay out there too long, and most of the time it is sold to a local person, and I see that car around town, or that vehicle around town, or whatever it was, many, many times. I just think it is an infi'ingement, and I would like to see it not go through. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Would anyone else like to address the Town Board? ELAINE MCDUFFY: Elaine McDuffy, Nassau Point. I would like to commend you, Bill, for taking a step that is long overdue, and the problem is getting worse, and I don't think ten years ago it was so horrible, but I think you have all seen it grow, and it kind of bothers me that ruralness is being equated withjunk. That is all I have to say. vehicle sale and store-PH 8 SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to address the Town Board? (No response.) Hearing none, I will close the heating. Eliza'beth A. Nev~ille~t~ Southold Town Clerk ELIZABETH A. NEVILLE TOWN CLERK REGISTRAR OF VITAL STATISTICS MARRIAGE OFFICER RECORDS MANAGEMENT OFFICER FREEDOM OF INFORMATION OFFICER Town Hall, 53095 Main Road P.O. Box 1179 Southold, New York 11971 Fax (631) 765-6145 Telephone (631) 765-1800 OFFICE OF THE TOWN CLERK TOWN OF SOUTHOLD THIS IS TO CERTIFY THAT THE FOLLOWING RESOLUTION WAS ADOPTED AT THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD ON DECEMBER 12, 2000: WHEREAS there has been presented to the Town Board of the Town of Southold, th Suffolk County, New York, on the 12 day of December, 2000 a Local Law entitled "A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold", now, therefore, be it RESOLVED that the Town Board of the Town of Southold hereby sets 5:06 p. m. Wednesday, January 3, 2001, as the time and place for a public hearing on this Local Law which reads as follows: LOCAL LAW NO. 2000 § 92-63 STORAGE AND SALE OF VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS It is hereby declared to be unlawful to park or display vehicles or purposes of storage or sale on or within one hundred (100) feet of the lines of any state or county highway or roadway within the unincorporated portions of the Town of Southold or within two hundred fifty (250) feet of any intersection of the aforementioned highways unless otherwise provided in this Code. Vehicles owned and/or operated by federal, state, county, or town government or agencies thereof or operated by any other municipality, including fire districts, shall be exempt from the provisions of this section. Exception: Nothing contained herein shall prohibit the owner of a motor vehicle from selling same from the driveway of the owner's single family residence. Elizabeth A. Neville Southold Town Clerk PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS BENNETT ORLOWSKI, JR. Chairman WILLIA~ J. CREMERS KENNETH L. EDWARDS GEORGE RITCHIE LATHANi, JR. RICHARD CAGGIANO Town Hall, 53095 State Route 25 P.O. Box 1179 Southold, New York 11971-0959 Telephone (631) 765-1938 Fax (631) 765-3136 PLANNING BOARD OFFICE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD TO: FROM: RE: DATE: Elizabeth A. Neville, Town Clerk Planning Board Local Law in Relation to Storage and Sale of Vehicles on Highways, Chapter 29, Article IX January 3, 2001 The Planning Board has reviewed the Local Law as above and recommends changes as follows: Add Vehicles owned by commercial dealerships shall be exempt from the provisions of this Section. PUBLIC HEARING JANUARY 3,2001 5:06 P.M. ON A PROPOSED "LOCAL LAW IN RELATION TO STORAGE AND SALE OF VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS, CHAPTER 92, ARTICLE IX, VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC, OF THE CODE OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD". Present: Supervisor Jean W. Cochran Justice Louisa P. Evans Councilman William D. Moore Councilman John M. Romanelli Councilman Brian G. Murphy Councilman Craig A. Richter Town Clerk Elizabeth A. Neville Town Attorney Gregory A. Yakaboski SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We will move on to the 5:06 hearing. Louisa, do you want to read this one? JUSTICE EVANS: "NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that there has been presented to the Town Board of the Town of Southold, Suffolk County, New York, on the 12th day of December, 2000 a Local Law entitled "A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold." NOTICE IS FURTHER GiVEN that the Town Board of the Town of Southold will hold a public hearing on the aforesaid Local Law at the Southold Town Hall, 53095 Main Road, Southold, New York, and hereby sets 5:06 p. m. Wednesday, January 3, 2001, as the time and place for a public hearing at which time all interested persons will be heard. The proposed "A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold" which includes the following: LOCAL LAW NO. 2000 A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold § 92-63 STORAGE AND SALE OF VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS A. It is hereby declared to be unlawful to park or display vehicles or purposes of storage or sale on or within one hundred (100) feet of the lines of any state or county highway or roadway within the unincorporated portions of the Town of Southold or within two hundred fifty (250) feet of any intersection of the aforementioned highways unless otherwise provided in this Code. vehicle sale and store-PH 2 B. Vehicles owned and/or operated by federal, state, county, or town government or agencies thereof or operated by any other municipality, including fire districts, shall be exempt from the provisions of this section. C. Exception: Nothing contained herein shall prohibit the owner of a motor vehicle from selling same from the driveway of the owner's single family residence. BY ORDER OF THE SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD, DECEMBER 12, 2000." The Planning Board has sent some correspondence. They suggested, recommended the change that we add, vehicles owned by commercial dealerships shall be exempt from the provisions from this section. I had proof that it was published in the Suffolk Times, and posted on the Town Clerk's Bulletin Board. There is no further correspondence beyond the Planning Board. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. You have heard the reading of a Local Law in relation to storage and sale of vehicles on highways. Is there anyone that would like to address the Town Board? Mr. Lizewski, and then Mr. Penny. JOE LIZEWSKI: As an individual I think that, again, the rural quality of life issue always comes in because it is the thing that wins elections. We always talk about the rural quality of life. I think some of these things that are sold on the side of the road go very quickly, and I think a lot just get passed around the community. For the most part I don't think most local people mind doing that. I know that I have a piece of property that has a lot of visibility, and people always come to me, and ask me if they can put a vehicle on it. Usually with four or five days it is gone. Maybe you can consider since there is no other place for local people to do that, except in parking lots, which is what is going to happen. You are going to find them in your Mattituck parking lot. You are going to find them in your King Kullen parking lot or anyplace that is business zoned that they can get away with that, and constantly. Maybe if people could come in, and much like you have a permit to get a yard sale, you can have it for a week, or five days, and to do it, and get it over with, but I just don't know where these things always come from. I know I sat on the Scenic Road Committee about two years ago, and a guy from Port Washington stood up, was sitting next to me, and he said to me, boy, I want to get this Scenic Road thing through because we get the Scenic Road thing through we can stop people from parking their cars and selling them on the Main Road. So, you know those ideas are always out there. You don't know where this law came from because again it came through as a memo at a Town Board meeting, so I have no idea where the origin came from, because it didn't through a legislative meeting, it came, again, in the form of a memo, the first time I saw it anyway. You wonder how these things really come about, and how much harm they really do, but that rural life that you see as you go upstate or you particularly come out here, we seem to continually nip away at, and take away some of that rural life, that you may think is not so rural now, but it certainly has been a part of the environment for a long time. People sell lawnmowers, and there is always stuff that people pick up, and basically put around. So, I think this is another one of those laws to me, it is just out of the blue, and it is not just going to...may add to some people, but it is going take also from the other side. Again, there is no other place to do that, and a lot of the people who live out here, you know, you go down to the place that they want to buy a new vehicle, and the guy says, I am only going to give you two, and he says, well, gee whiz, I think I can get more than that if I sell it outright. So, you know, it is part of the way we have always done life, and it is sort of sad to see these kind of laws come to the platform. Thank you. vehicle sale and store-PH 3 COUNCILMAN MURPHY: Joe, just to mention one thing, we talk about complaints and everything, I did not write this, but I did have many complaints over the past year of the section in front of the North Fork Bank. I counted one day nine vehicles lined up there for sale. Not is the bank parking lot. JOE L1ZEWSKI: That is one person, though. That is one piece of property mean again if you want to attack the problem I think that is one person. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Same from Boissaeu Avenue, Joe. I drove from Boisseau Avenue to Peconic Lane, nineteen cars parked along the road for sale. We have one gentleman in town that buys them at auctions, and brings them in and sells them. JOE LIZEWSKI: I don't think that is right. It is a business. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Down in Montgomery Village, Maryland, what they do is take them to the schools every Saturday, and you can park your car for sale at the school, and that is where people go to expect to buy a car. JOE LIZEWSKI: If we could provide a place for it, it would be nice, but like I said you are just going to see these things in our parking lots, and I don't think it is going to change people trying to sell them. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We have had many, many, many complaints. JOE LIZEWSKI: I just have never heard of any. BILL LIEBLEIN: When I told my ~vife I was going to be coming home late, because I was coming to the heating because it was about selling used cars, she said, you know, sometimes when you go down the road the car is right up on the comer, and she mentioned one on Cox Lane, and she says, it almost looks like the car is getting ready to pull out, so I have listened to Joe. My initial read of this is it looks a little restrictive, but I agree. Sometimes there is a really junk car that just sits there, and sits there, and sit there, and doesn't more in four or five days. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I can show you some on the North Road have been there five years. BILL LIEBLE1N: If someone is going and buying them at auction, and bringing them in, if you are going to be allowed to do it should be for your own personal vehicle that you, Dick, wouldn't give me enough money so you are going to sell it yourself. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Usually we park the ones we want to sell in our own driveway. BILL LIEBLEIN: I would suggest that you approach this particular new ordinance or law, whatever, in the same manner as the previous one. You are getting some input here. (Tape change) If is some other avenue, as you mentioned, at a school or somewhere there is a place where it all takes place at one time, you know that is where you go to look for the cars. I would encourage the Board to look at other things that are maybe not as restrictive, or if the car had to be maybe not 200 feet back, but 100 feet, or vehicle sale and store-PH 4 whatever it is, maybe at least forty or fifty feet, just if you would go over this again before you just pass it as you presently have it. COUNCILMAN MOORE: Can I just make one comment here? There is a copy of this law floating around, and it is not the final version. It is in the legal notice that there was an exception of a driveway in your own home. That is in there. That floating around was a copy of the resolution that didn't include that. It was those who were bringing out of other neighborhood and plunking down on the main thoroughfare, like up in Mattituck to be seen. Jean had talked about the centralizing locations put in town. You could go up on Saturday from nine to five, and there will be twenty cars available. COUNCILMAN PENNY: Good afternoon. George Penny. I guess I have a copy of the wrong law also, so it is the intent of the Board that if you want to sell your own vehicle in your yard, or in your driveway, whether it be a boat, or whatever, it is no problem. Okay, let's go one step further. My employees come to work. One of the most popular places to sell cars is right in front of Penny Lumber by my employees when they have something to sell. Now, it is business property. It is commemially zoned. We have parking. We have everything else available, and if an employee, and I have always allowed my employees, if they want to take a car, and leave a for sale sign on it, that they are allowed to sell it off the premises of my property. According to this could not happen. I would guarantee you that we sell probably somewhere between three and six cars a year right off the Main Road. I don't know how you are going to enforce something like this, because if somebody drives from spot to spot, if they have a car with a for sale sign, and you drive by my commercial property, and you see a for sale sign there, you are going to come and cite me, or are you going to come in and cite my employee? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Whomever the car is registered to, I guess. We are going to look for first, George. You are in the used car business. GEORGE PENNY: Absolutely not. My employees, that could park anywhere, they could park in front of King Kullen, and a sale could transact with private individuals in front of the King Kullen because they had a for sale sign in their car. I don't see how you are going to be able to police that. I think that if someone has business property, I think if you want to protect residential property and residential streets, and all that, that is one thing, but if it is a parking lot in a commercial sector, where an individual is selling his own car. I am not talking about a conglomeration of twenty people getting together, and all parking down at the North Fork Bank parking lot, and opening up a used car lot on Sundays. But, I do find curious that these restrictions are coming about for a town that does not allow a used car lot, and I refer you to your sections of the Code that say, sales of used vehicles or boats shall be conducted only as accessory to the sale of new vehicles or boats, so in any event where are these people supposed to go? If you don't allow a used car lot in the town, and you are telling people all the places that they can't sell vehicles where are they supposed to go? Food for thought. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, George. ARNOLD BLAIR: Arnold Blair, again. I have a question. Do I understand this law as drawn is to also prevent from businesses on the Main Road from selling cars off their lot? COUNCILMAN MOORE: I think that was comment made by our Planning Board. vehicle sale and store-PH 5 ARNOLD BLAIR: Because I understand Mr. Penny saying that this law would prevent him from allowing cars to sold off of his property. JUSTICE EVANS: He is not a car dealer. What the Planning Board's comments were vehicles owned by commercial dealership. ARNOLD BLAIR: What my question was, I am asking for clarification. Are you saying that a business on the Main Road that is business zoned would not be allowed to sell a car if selling cars is not the primary business. COUNCILMAN MOORE: That is the point that George has made. We hadn't even thought about the employees. ARNOLD BLAIR: I would just like to give an example. I sold a car this summer. It was a fairly expensive car. It was a restored 1956 Thunderbird, and it was well in access of $30,000. I couldn't put it in my driveway, because I live towards the end of Vanston Road, which is a dead end road, which gets no traffic. I prevailed upon one of the businesses in town, an auto body shop, if he would put it out front. I took ads in the Suffolk Times, and the News-Review. I took ads in the Easthampton, Southampton papers. I created a web site, and advertised it all over the Internet. I got no responses, but it was sitting on the Main Road at a business, and somebody from Greenport bought it. He said, gee, we were driving down the Main Road, we saw the car, my wife feel in love with it, and we concluded the transaction, so from a personal point of view I benefited from the ability to do that. COUNCILMAN MURPHY: As I read it, it is not finding putting at an auto body shop, or sitting in a parking lot doing shopping, and having a for sale on it. The area I was talking about, if you know where North Fork Bank headquarters is. This wasn't even in the parking lot. ARNOLD BLAIR: It is out on the Main Road. I have seen it. COUNCILMAN MURPHY: They have them lined up there on the shoulder of the road. ARNOLD BLAIR: My comment is, I understand your intent, and I think your intentions are good to prevent people from running a business that way, or from having an accumulation of cars perhaps in front of the North Fork Bank, but there is some fine lines that I don't think you should cross. Personally, my feeling is, as one of the other previous gentlemen commented, I think it is part of the rural character. When I see occasional cars or farm implements for sale on the side of the road when you pass a farm, I don't find it object ional, and I am as interested in the scenic vistas as anyone, believe me. I think, my point is don't go overboard. Don't prevent people from being able to sell their vehicles or other toys. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Like Thunderbirds. We get your point. STEVE YOUSIK: Good evening, again. Steve Yousik from Mattituck. About a year to two years ago 20/20 or Dateline, or somebody, ran a whole story on guys who have used car licenses, go to auctions, buy these cars, put them on the side of the road, and pretend to sell them as an individual, and not as a business, and they are scamming a lot of people, who are thinking they are buying someone's personal vehicle sale and store-PH 6 car, and they are not. I think the town should try to prevent something like that happening. 1 object to when I go down the street and there is four cars on the comer, and they are parked up on the grass. You should not be limiting somebody from parking it in a legal parking space on the side of 48 on the side of the Main Road, on the side of Cox Lane, if it is legal to park there, and you are a taxpayer, and you want to park your car there, take your chances with it sitting there twenty-four hours a day with a for sale sign, park it. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: If it is not registered. STEVE YOUSIK: If it is registered. If I have two vehicles that are registered to my name I am still under the limit for having a used car license in the State of New York, and that is what we should prevent. How are you going to tell the cop that I am driving my car around for two weeks trying to sell it, and I parked in front of North Fork Bank, or parked in front of Waldbaums? How are they going to know whose care and where it is, you know? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: If you see a car there at eight o'clock in the morning, it is still there at eight o'clock in the morning. You can tell the difference. STEVE YOUSIK: What if someone works on Love Lane, and decides they want to park there, and they are there every day of the week, six days a week. One day they are parked one spot. Next day they are parked in another spot. How are you going to know? The guy has a legitimate right to go to work every day, and park his car in front of where he works, but when they are parked up on the grass, blocking the view from making tums and stuff in traffic, then the Town should do something about it. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Yes, sir? JOE FINORA: Joe Finora from Mattituck. I think this matter could probably be easily addressed because it is easy to tell you who has a car, and who is driving to work with it, and is driving to work with it, and leaving it outside his place of employment, and leaves and drives the same car home as compared to someone that leaves a car in front of a business establishment for two, three, four days. I think in the case George Penny brought up, if his employees drive to work with a car that is for sale, and they leave it on his property, and they are taking the car home at night, I see nothing wrong with that. There is a distinct difference between someone that leaves a car there for two or three days, and tries to sell it, as opposed to someone that just drives wherever he happens to go, he parks it, conducts whatever business he has to do, he completes his business, and then, you know, drives off. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. So, I think that is something that could be easily addressed. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. JIM BITSES: The Constitution gives everybody the right, as Bill will back me up, a free expression. Putting a sign on your car, whether it is for sale, or for whatever, is free expression, and if you curtail that free expression you law may be unconstitutional. What we have is a bunch of mosquito bites, people selling their cars here and there, individuals. We are not talking about commercial sales. Why don't we just let them alone, and let them sell their vehicles, one here, and one there, as long as it is not commercial, as long as they themselves own that vehicle, and they have, as I said, the right of free expression. They can put a sign in, or on, or anywhere on that vehicle, saying that it is for sale, and vehicle sale and store-PH 7 they cannot be stopped, so that is my suggestion. Drop the whole thing. It is mosquito bites. Let the people sell their cars. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, Jim. Sir? ERNEST SCHNEIDER: Ernie Schneider. I have been out here since '74, '73, and to me it bas always been part of the charm of the North Fork. On occasion it gets overdone, and it doesn't make me feel good but I am not one of these people who say, not in my backyard. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: That's good to know. Where do you live? I am looking for someone like you. ERNEST SCHNEIDER: Okay. I will give you my address afterwards. In any case I have sold a few vehicles off of the North Road, not on my property, but with permission of the owner of the property. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: But you are on private property? ERNEST SCHNEIDER: Oh definitely, I am on private property. Now, is that allowed if I have permission from the owner to sell something? Now, what does a vehicle consist of? Is a vehicle a boat, a trailer, a car, a truck, a motor home? Are they all considered vehicles? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: The way this reads is storage or sale on or within 100 feet of the lines of any State or County highway, or roadway within the unincorporated portions of the Town of Southold, so on and so forth. ERNEST SCHNEIDER: In other words you can do it in a residential area, but you can't do it on the North Road, or on 25? COUNCILMAN MURPHY: If you have a home there. The exception is, nothing containing herein shall prohibit the owner of a motor vehicle from selling same from his driveway, or owner's single- family residence. ERNEST SCHNEIDER: Where I live I am up at the end of nowhere. There is no way I can sell anything. No one would ever see it, except the deer. I would be upset if that privilege to me to talk to a friend of mine who has a piece of property, and I have had good success. It usually doesn't stay out there too long, and most of the time it is sold to a local person, and I see that car around town, or that vehicle around town, or whatever it was, many, many times. I just think it is an infringement, and I would like to see it not go through. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Would anyone else like to address the Town Board? ELAINE MCDUFFY: Elaine McDuffy, Nassau Point. I would like to commend you, Bill, for taking a step that is long overdue, and the problem is getting worse, and I don't think ten years ago it was so horrible, but I think you have all seen it grow, and it kind of bothers me that ruralness is being equated withjunk. That is all I have to say. vehicle sale and store-PH 8 SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to address the Town Board? (No response.) Hearing none, I will close the hearing. Southold Town Clerk Board of the Town of Southold, Suffolk County, New york. on the 12th day of December, 2000 a Local Law entitled, Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehiclea On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Tmfl~ of the Code or the Town of SouthoM." NOTICE IS FURTHER GIVEN that the Town Board of the Town of Soathold will hold a public hearing on the aforesaid Local Law ak the Southold Town Hall, 53095 IVlaln Road, Southold, New York, and hereby sets 5:06 p.m. Wednesday. Janua~ 3, 2001, as the time and place for a public hearing at which time all later- ested persons will be heard. The proposed "A Lacal Law in rela- tion te Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92. Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold" which included the following: LOCAL LAW NO. 2~0 A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways. Chapter 92, A.icle IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold §92-6~ STORAGE AND SALE OF VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS A. It is bereby declered to be unhiwfal te park or display vehicles for hundred (100) feet of the lthes of any su,te of county highway or roadway within the unincoqx~ pomions of hundred fifty (250) feet of any inter- section of the aforementioned high- B. Vehlcles owned and/of operatod by operated by any other municipality, C. Exception: Nothing contained herein DBCI~KR 12, 21~0 STATE OF NEW YORK) )SS: COUNTY OF. SUFFOLK) ~.~C~¥~-~) of Mattituck, in said county, ~eing duly sworn, says that he/she is Principal clerk of THE SUFFOLK TIMES, a weekly newspaper, published at Mattituck, in the Town of Southold, County of Suffolk and State of New York, and that the Notice of which the annexed is a printed copy, has been regularly published in said Newspaper once each week for ~ weeks succes- sively,of c~encing . on 20 the ~ ~ _- day CHR,STINA T. WEBER ~L NotaP/Public, State of New YoI~ Oualifie~ in SuffoE County 0 Principal Clerk C0r,,;~Esion Exp~es December 13, 0~_ Sworn to before me this c~ / day of ~'JL(} - 20 O0 LEGALNOTICE NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that there has been presented to the Town Board of the Town of Southold, Suffolk County, New York, on the 12th day of December, 2000 a Local Law entitled "A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold." NOTICE IS FURTHER GiVEN that the Town Board of the Town of Southold will hold a public hearing on the aforesaid Local Law at the Southold Town Hall, 53095 Main Road, Southold, New York, and hereby sets 5:06 p. m. Wednesday, January 3, 2001, as the time and place for a public hearing at which time all interested persons will be heard. The proposed "A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold" which includes the following: LOCAL LAW NO. 2000 A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of the Code of the Town of Southold § 92-63 STORAGE AND SALE OF VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS It is hereby declared to be unlawful to park or display vehicles or purposes of storage or sale on or within one hundred (100) feet of the lines of any state or county highway or roadway within the unincorporated portions of the Town of Southold or within two hundred fifty (250) feet of any intersection of the aforementioned highways unless otherwise provided in this Code. Vehicles owned and/or operated by federal, state, county, or town government or agencies thereof or operated by any other municipality, including fire districts, shall be exempt from the provisions of this section. Exception: Nothing contained herein shall prohibit the owner of a motor vehicle from selling same from the driveway of the owner's single family residence. BY ORDER OF THE SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD, DECEMBER 12, 2000. ELIZABETH A. NEVILLE SOUTHOLD TOWN CLERK PLEASE PUBLISH ON DECEMBER 21, 2000, AND FORWARD ONE (1) AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION TO ELIZABETH NEVILLE, TOWN CLERK, TOWN HALL, PO BOX 1179, SOUTHOLD, NY 11971. Copies to the following: The Suffolk Times Town Board Members Town Clerk's Bulletin Board Chief Cochran Raymond Jacobs, Highway Dept. STATE OF NEW YORK ) SS: COUNTY OF SUFFOLK) ELIZABETH A. NEVILLE, Town Clerk of the Town of Southold, New York being duly sworn, says that on the 13th day of December ,2000, she affixed a notice of which the annexed printed notice is a true copy, in a proper and substantial manner, in a most public place in the Town of Southold, Suffolk County, New York, to wit: Town Clerk's Bulletin Board, 53095 Main Road, Southold, New York. NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARING -- 5:06 p. m. Wednesday, January 3, 2001, as the time and place for a public hearing at which time all interested persons will be heard. The proposed "A Local Law in relation to Storage And Sale Of Vehicles On Highways, Chapter 92, Article IX, Vehicles and Traffic, of'the Code of the Town of Southold" C-Elizabeth A. Neville Southold Town Clerk Sworn before me this 13~day of Decem~ber~, 2000. LYI~DA M, BOHN #O17ffiY PUBLIC, State No. Ol BO6020932 Term E.xplrea March a,