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HomeMy WebLinkAboutTB-10/05/1999-SPUBLIC COMMENTS ON SPECIAL MEETING SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OCTOBER 5, 1999 9:00 A.M. PROPOSED ZONING MAP CHANGES ON ROUTE IN THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD. Present: Supervisor Jean W- Cochran Councilwoman Alice J. Hussie Justice Louisa P. Evans Councilman William D. Moore Councilman John M. Romanelli Councilman Brian G. Murphy Town Clerk Elizabeth A. Neville Town Attorney Gregory F. Yakaboski SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: These properties are located at Route 48. will you read the lot number and the owner of the property? COUNCILMAN MOORE: This section is 55-5-2.3 Gary Rempe and Wife property, 55-5-~ Linda Bertani and Others, 55-5-5 property of Audrey Berglund, 55-2-2a~.2 Frank Field Corp, 55-2--23 Madeleine Schlafer, 55-5-10 George Penny IV and Robert Boger, 55-5-11 Joann Rizzo, 55-5-12.2 Donald Tuthill and Wife, 55.5-5-9.1 Patricia Miloski- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: At this time we offer to you to address the Town Board on anything pro or con that you would like to share with us. Is there anyone that would like to address the Town Board? Linda? LINDA BERTANI: My name is Linda Bertanl. Ten years ago my husband, John and I, and Bob and Ann Guarrlello purchased a small piece of General Business zoned property on Youngs Avenue in Southold. The reason for the purchase was two fold. First and foremost we purchased it as an investment in our futures and our children, some of whom are working in the family businesses that we have. Secondly, the Town Board frowned upon businesses with several trucks in driveways, and other business related materials stored in the yard of home based businesses in residential neighborhoods. Since my husband, a general contractor, had trucks, tools, ladders, and other building materials, and Mr- Guarriello, an electrician had trucks, tools, ladders and other electrical materials we looked for and purchased a piece of General Business zoned property. We went about fixing up the existing house on the property, building three · pg 2 - PH garages behind it, and fencing it in, so that our trucks and work related items could be legally placed and out of sight of our new business neighbors. My husband uses this property mainly for storage. Mr. Guarriello actually runs his business from his office there. I have a recommendation to the Town Board from someone up island, who has no vested interest in Southold Town or it's business community, to rezone our property from General Business to Residential Office it becomes fact the following will happen. First, you will have a non-conforming business on this property, which we do not want to do. We like being legal. That is why we purchased the property in the first place. No one has bothered us there. We bother no one, and we felt as though we are being good neighbors by taking our work related items and business out our residential neighborhood . that we live in. Secondly, most important to us, what happened to our investment in the future. Last month we had property appraised by a certified appraiser at General Business and at Residential Office. The value bf the property would drop significantly. Who will compensate us for this lot? You have money to pu~hase farm property, so why don't you take some of that money and compensate the property owners' for their Io'sses, if there property is upzoned? ~/ith a stroke 'of your pens you take away our property rights, and ten years worth of hard work. Please don't d~ it- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, Linda. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? LJ.~da, can we have a copy? Anyone that has a prepared st~atement, can we either make a copy, or give us the one you have? It helps Jn translation of the minutes. Thank you. MADELEINE SCHLAFER: Good morning. My name is Madeleine Schlafer. My husband :Gordon and I own 1670 House, Lot #055-2-23, a furniture and home accessory store. We bought our business thirteen years ago known formerly in the community as Wedgewood Shop. It was opened in 1959 as a business forty years ago. We are very upset to find we are being changed to RO. We chose to c'all the store the 1670 House because it is registered as a Southold Historic House. It originally stood where the American Legion Hall is, k:nown then as the Josh Bordon house. From the outside today you would never realize the furniture displayed inside, because we protect the integrity of the historic house at our expense. We built an extension to the rear. Actually John Bertani did this for us. Even at the time we realized it would have been better if we had the building to the side, where we could have had large windows with people going by. We didn"t want to ruin the charm of the house. Other people have said, take out the front two windows. Well, we wouldn't do that either, because again, it is a historic house, and we were protecting to the detriment. We have to advertise. Looks are deceiving. We have eleven, twelve rooms inside. People go by~ and they don't know what we are about. When they do come in everyone is always shocked to see what we have. We preserved the visual and historic character of the town, and the surrounding area. We ask that you do not penalize us and our future. We have preserved the vista. I would like to present a picture. This is what it looked like in 1959. This is what it looks like today. We have gone to the Planning Board thinking of putting a small addition to the side, and they want to put blacktop, white lines, and modernize it. Well, of course not, we want to keep it gravel. We want to keep historic. So, we please ask that you pg 3 - PH would consider what we have tried to preserve and stop in and see what we are about. Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board? Yes, sir? GORDON SCHLAFER: My name is Gordon Schlafer, and I am the husband of Madeleine Schlafer of the 1670 House- One of things that bothers me about this whole thing is that it is seems to be presented in the newspapers and everything as a them against us syndrome. It is like it has got be pristine, Route ~8 a horrible Route 58. I don't think that is way. I see these people write into the paper. One woman writes in she is sick and tired of these greedy businessmen on the North Road. She says, there is 'more of us than there are more of them. Now, this is the kind of syndrome this thing has come down to. I don't think you people are out there relieve us of all our property, and I don't 'think that is route you really want to take. The way it is presented reminds of the way they do things in Washington when they want to cut the fat out of some bloated program. They present it to people like us. Sir, would you like see this program cut, and the peopl'e that benefit their children starve, or would you rather see it passed? Oh, I would rather se6 the kid starve. You know? This is the way this thing is, comes across.' I would like to. ask you a question. You correct me. I am under the impression that we can not seli our business or our piece of properly, our store, unless someone is in the Same business. Is that correct? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Grog, will you answer that, please? TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: became non-conforming? If you have a non-conforming use? If it GORDON SCHLAFER: Yes- TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: It is an intensity question. If you continue that use, a new person, say, John bought, you can continue that use, and a less intense use, when it becomes more non-conforming. GORDON SCHLAFER: Well, let me give you a answer to that from us, the way it concerns us. I have been in this business since 1951, and I am 71 years old. I am in retail. I was a wholesale representative for 27 years on Long Island, and I will tell you there has never been a furniture store business sold. So, that is like us trying to hit the New York State Lottery, so that wipes that out for us. Okay? We are not young. We are thinking about retiring in the somewhat near future. I mean, I don't want to go from the furniture store to the funeral parlor without passing go. What you are doing is this piece of property we have, I mean, it is a house is not livable, number one. It has a 50 by 50 big empty space in the back. It is next to a garage on the thoroughfare. Now, who is going to buy that? You tell me- Nobody. We have over $350,000 invested in that piece of property. We won't get. $50,000 for it. I don't think it is right. I don't think it is fair. I was going to say I don't think it un-American, but the way things are in this country with the rules and regulations and the bureaucracy maybe that is what we have become. You know? That's all I have to say. pg L~ - PH COUNCILMAN MOORE: Can I just expand a little bit on what the Town Attorney said as far as your question goes? There is a notion out there that if a parcel becomes non-conforming the only thing you can sell it for is the use that you were using it for, in your instance the furniture store. That is not true, because what the law is and what the Code says, obviously that use can continue from here On out- If you gave the business to your kids or you sold it to somebody else, but you can also shift it to another use, which under the Code at the time would be non-conforming as long as it is of a use that is similar type of intensity, so the example becomes..well, let's assume that a restaurant generated more traffic and required more parking than your business does. That would be a more intense use. You, couldn't shift over to a restaurant, but you could change from a retail sales of furniture to some other retails sales that have a similar kind of parking requirement, use requirement. I thine that is common]y forgotten. You are so limited in the possible uses. I don't know if it makes you feel any better or not. I only meant to say, it is. not as narrow a limitation, as people.. CORDON SCHLAFER: It scares me, let me tell. COUNCILMAN MOORE: I respect that. Even if it goes to RO a non-conforming use can continue, and it can change as long as the intensity is no greater than what the prior non-conforming use was. You don't automatically shift over to RO. If the retail business continues on that property that can continue. GORDON SCHLAFER: Who determines the intensity? COUNCILMAN MOORE: I am telling that is how it works. It is not anywhere as narrowing as..you may not like that answer, but it is not as narrow as you may think. GORDON SCHLAFER: The only thing I can tell it is a little better. The only thing I can tell you is, you know, I read in the paper these greedy businessman from Nassau, and they are coming out and they want to ruin Route [~8. Well, I haven't seen any of those people. All I see are people who live here, and have families here, and trying to make a living, investing their money and their time. I just think there is another way. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Anyone else? PATRICIA MILOSKI; Good morning. My name is Pat Miloski. I own The Country Store, and I am speaking today before the Town Board in response to the public hearing, where you propose a zone change on my property, Suffolk County Tax #055=5-9.1 from Business to RO. I especially request that the present business zoning be kept as such as it has been for over thirty years. I would like to be sure that my two letters to the Town Board from August and September and any other correspondence be entered into and become a part of this pubic hearing and any subsequent hearings to follow. At this time I would llke to also add that 2 Protest Petitions have been filed with the Town Clerk's Office in regard to Town Law 265 on my property. My parcel is unique in many ways due to the 2 buildings and the setbacks from the road frontage, thereby not affecting the scenic vista, and clearly fits under the zone of Business because of the lot size, the 2 ~ pg 5 - PH buildings, the setback and the current uses. The current CO's fit the current Business Zoning. To change this Business zoning from B which it Has been for over 30 years would create a nonconforming business on a nonconforming lot and would result in substantial financial hardship. Yes, you have a purpose, but it makes sense to leave my property the way it is. A mall business Has to be allowed to grow within its permitted uses in order to affectively serve their customers. My property was B zoned when the structure was moved here in 1966. There is a shopping center that border my property on .the west side which is the same B zoning and a shopping center across the street with the same B zoning all built after this structure was here. The property on my east side is B zoned and the next parcel to my east, a hair salon is also B zoned. Across the street again 'next to the shopping center is a auto service center and a furniture gift shop also B zoned. The Southold Planning Board in 1988 had designated my parcel and the adjoining parcel to my east as Commercial/Business zoned because the previous owner had a site plan approval from all agencies involved including the State and County. In addressing t'he County Rte [[8 Corridor Report by CrOmer and Associates, the consul%ing company appears to have been arbitrary and capricious in their proposal to rezone my property. On the south side of the street where my property is located he defines the commer~iai strip as just the shopping center and leaves me out, which across the street on the north side he defines the commercial strip as shopping cen~er and some adjacent properties- How is this logical? My property is developed, act|Ye, vested in use and should be kept Business zoned. My property does not fit into any other type of zoning other than B due to the lot size, the 2 buildings, and the mu!ti~business use. Even when you just look at the lot si~e and shape on the map it appears to be part of the commerci'al ~.trip. To change my property from B to RD would leave me with a non-conforming business on a non-conforming lot with non-conforming uses. My property values would be worth virtually nothing and if I ever did sell, you can imagine the nightmare and legal fees it would be to get the permits and papers necessary to please a t~tle company or lender. I have a letter from King Realty stating that changing my property from B to RO would dramatically reduce the value of my property due to the less permitted use~ allowed. P.lease enter this letter into the record. The proposed zoning change would create both financial and emotional hardships for myself both in the present and the future. Therefore I cannot afford to not challenge the Town if you change 'my zoning from B. Usually when a Board rezones, they try to mal~e an area conform to Code. Every town in Suffolk County is against non-conforming uses and in this case Mr. Cramer is taking a conforming area and ma.king it non-conforming. Is this right? Another area of Mr- Cromer's report that seems to be in error is under the Section A called Site Description, present land use in my Section 6 Southold. His report states that this area is Urban and other and fails to fill in the blank under other, and also does not check off the box Commercial. Why? Also, under A, Site Description .#16, his report claims there is a lake, pond, or wetlands in this section. Where? And once again fails to fill in the blank. How can one make decisions with incorrect information? I am a woman, sole property of an established Country Store in this Hamlet Business Community. This is my only asset. This business was established with my own hands and finances. Economically, I cannot surviYe or get my investment back unless you keep my zoning as Business. All of us here today look with optimism to the future. How can we allow an outside firm pg 6 - PH to propose changes to our vested community. I do not understand politics. I do believe in traditional family values and integrity. I urge the Board to do not what may be politically correct, but to do what is morally right- I once again request that the Town Board reject the proposal to rezone my property and to keep it Business zoned as it has been for over 30 years. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board? ANN MILOSKI: My name is Ann Miloski, Pat's mother-in-law. I am member of the Master Zoning for Riverhead, a member of the Economic Development Zone far the Grumman site. I am also a member of the North Environmental Council. I believe in farmland preservation, land development, and preserving the quality of life on the east end. I do not understand though how you can consider rezonlng this property, which is in a business corridor. Next to and across from the shopping center, and by doing so what benefit it would be to the family? When Pat ~vanted to buy this property, which was at the time was an eyesore to the town, I asked her how it was zoned? She said it was zoned Business since 1966. The barn was rented out to a fence business and a woodworking business. Then she said, well, maybe I should just get a job with retirement benefits. I said, you can buy the business property, fix it up, and make a viable country type business, The equity in your business will increase, and when you are ready to retire~ you can sell it. Little did I know the Cromer Report would .pick businesses in the shopping corridor, and ask that it be downzone. I implore the Town Board to leave this parcel business. It is the right thing do. Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? I will take Mr. Penny, and then Mr. Smith, GEORGE PENNY IV: Good morning. My name is George Penny. My partner, Bob Boger and I own a small parcel east of Pat Miloski's. At this time pursuant to Section 265 in the Town Code. I would like to leave a petition against this rezoning. I would also like to speak on behalf of my neighbors, the Schlafers, and Pat Miloski to whom I sold the proprty. I did not sell it to the Schlafers, but to Pat Miloski who bought a portion of our property. Three partners, Bob Boger, Billy Graseck, and myself, alt local residenLs Bought this property from Bill Smith back in the early 80's. We did because things were bursting out here, and we did it for the obvious reason, to have .frontage in a commercial area. I always thought at sometime that with some goad plan and a little bit' of taste I could put up an additional cabinet shop, not a cabinet shop but have a store as an accent to my business, or perhaps another flooring .center. That was my thought. The economy fell apart. Things went kind of shabby, and so we never really got into this investment idea. However we spent $3,000 on filed site plan, which I have a copy of, and our parcel which we still hold in conjunction with Pat Miloski's parcel we put in a little country complex, we planned a country complex which would be very similar to what you see in Aqueboque. I think it is where the ski shop is, Arlene's Boutique and that type of thing. I don"t know if the town has ever seen this, although this document has been in the Planning Department since the mid 80"s, or late 80"s. I believe the date is on there. It has been certified, and ready to go. The only thing we need is water. We already had some power. The power split off from LILCO, so that was not pg 7 - PH a problem. If you were to take patls property in particular, one of the main problems that she is going to have is outside display. It is not allowable on Residential Office. Also, if you go one step further, and you read very carefully into the new proposed zoning you are going to find out that Residential Office does not allow retail sales. That will affect both of these retail businesses. I mean, I donft understand what is going on here. Across the street from us is a service station. We abut a shopping center. How will you expect this little half acre parcel, that I have I would have to take a house, and face the Main Road. You would have to face County Route 48 for an exposure. We couldn't put in a site plan like that, which could be cute, buildings could be cocked off to the side, and pai-king for the entire complex would be taken care of very deeply. The Town of Southold with all the years that I spent on the Board' has spent hours and hours trying to talk people into doing projects. I know that they spent hours and hours of time with the Planning Board, trying to get people in Mattituck to develop their properties together, have one joint driveway, 'and have joint parking lots, and to limit the amount of egress to and from the traffic fl°~Vl This particular project which you see in front of you does exac.tly, that. It passed the Planning Board. It went through all the scrutiny of the town at the time, and believe you me it will prevent an extra driveway, bnd some sort of residential structure, possibly a doctor, a lawyer, an att?rnby, or somebody else. The only person that would possibly want to put an, office out there, because across from the service station I donmt thinl~ ¥c~u a~e go|r~g to see a whole lot of people that are going to jumping to th|'s site. However, as commercial it maizes sense, but the way it is going with Re~identlal Office it is not going to do anybody any good. The lot will tempin vacant for a very long time. You w0nmt be able to see the ne!ghbor 0n. the next side, who happens to be a hair salon who is in the same boat as i am. I would like to say something on her behalf, too. I mean that is not a residential house. I don't believe there is anybody that has lived there or has lived there. It has a personal service shop, etc., etc,. That corridor was meant to be what it is. If you read the existing Master. Plan, a~d I pointed this out at an earlier hear|ng, high traffic businesses were meant to be on certain areas of Route ~&8. I read every wold. I read ~verythlng' that there could ever be read on the Master Plan, which I spent four something years working on it, we passed here in the Town Hall. The two of 'them do not fit together. If you are change the MaTter Plan say so, but to have a report like this, which comes out and says jc~st the Opposite of what the Master Plan says is immediate conflict to anybody that has read both document. The Master Plan is not that old. It still on the she[f, and if you going to amend it, do so, and letfs do it publicly, because this is no way to amend..this is not an amendment. This is an addendum 'or something else, but it is not what it claims to be. One point even further, and this really, this is the type of stuff that irked me during, the last Master Plan sessions that we had when we go to public hearings and public officials would stand in front of people, and said, don't be afraid of being, ndn-conforming. You are going to get all of this great protect|oh. Don't worry. Everything is going to be fine, and read in you proposed lecjislation the part which still hasnlt changed, and I have it right here, A non-conforming containing a non-conforming use, which has be~n damaged 'bY fire or other causes to the extent of more than 50% of it's fair value shall not be repaired or rebuilt unless the use of such building is changed from non-conforming use. Cood bye old houses. One match and you ca~n forget about not only your house, but your business use at the pg 8 - PH same time, and if that isn't made aware to people as part of this explanation I think both sides of the coin should be presented to people when you are trying to sugar coat a non-conforming use. What you are getting, and what you think you are getting are two different things, and that part has not changed- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: It's in there now. TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: That is what we were talking about changing the other day. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: It should be changed. Go ahead. I'm sorry, George. GEORGE PENNY IV: I think that is pretty much it for now. There is going to be a couple of more sessions, and I will come up with some more stuff on it. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I am sure will. Thanks, George- George, do you want this map back, or in the file? GEORGE PENNY IV: It is in the town file, if you guys want it. Just one question? I didn't hear any recommendations from the Planning Board one way or another, the County Planning Commission. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We are waiting for those to come back, comments. GEORGE PENNY IV: They have not come back? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Not yet. The County Planning Board meets tomorrow. GEORGE PENNY IV: Is that normal to hold a public hearing before you have these comments back? TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: You only schedule public hearings prior to sending referencing to the County Planner. GEORGE PENNY IV: I am just questioning because many years I was on the Town Board we never did before. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Greg, you are the attorney. TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: The whole purpose of the public hearing, George, as you know is to gather informatlon, and one of the things you do is gather from everybody here, you take it from the Planning Board, Town Planning Board, and the Planning Commission. The point about it, waiting for the referral to come back from the Suffolk County Planning Commission, or the Town Planning Board, or public hearings, you can't vote until after you have all the facts before you. That is the key point. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We can't take any action. T pg 9 - PH TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: Correct- There can be no vote until after you have those type of recommendations back. GEORGE PENNY IV: Yeah, but the public is here to hear what the other agencies, and the other referrals have to say regarding our own properties. TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: Along that line, George, I think what the Board has said at the last Town Board meeting was that in addition to these public hearings they are going to keep these public hearings open until the date after the 12th, at which time the Suffolk County Planning Commission. The findings or whatever they recommend will be back into the Board. GEORGE PENNY IV: Which means that everybody has got to come to three sessions to make sure that they hear all the information when that is being made reference on their property, and if they miss one of those sessions they may miss the opportunity to get this information. COUNCILWOMAN HUSSIE: One of the bumps in the road here is the fact that we have not yet solidified what the RO and LB zones are going to contain. We have proposals out there. Nothing is definite. I think that is what you are referring to, because you can argue about something, or not argue about something. GEORGE PENNY IV: I am totally aware that now we are up to maybe three or four public hearings to accomplish the goal of one. I am just wondering in fairness to the community that is being effected by this, and who has to take time off either during the work, or when their families come to many sessions of the Town Hall, where they could do it all as one. Is that a necessary burden to place upon the public? I mean, I believe that most here work for a living. Henry just pointed out that he doesn't. I mean, I just think.. I reread the Association of Towns brochure that they handed out when I became a Councilman, and it said the idea is to give as much information at the public hearing as absolutely possible, and I come in here, and all you are reading is a few names and lot changes, and that is it, and that is totally not the way we ever did things when I was on the Town Board I just question the change. That's all. HENRY SMITH: My name is Henry Smith. I don't have any personal interest in any of these properties as a resident, but being in business I had a lot of business friends, which a lot of them are here today. When I read about this study we are doing. The papers had pictures of Route 58 in Riverhead, of the big shopping center and everything like, but I have come here three or four times now, and all I see is, you know, we are talking about Mom and Pop operations, no big land speculators that, you know, they are going to put in these big shopping centers, and things like that, no Tanger malls here in Southold. I mean we don't have room for them. All we want after, that I see right now, are hard working people that have put their life into their business and future, and you are going after Mom and Pop operations. There is no big land speculators here we are trying to cut off, or anything like that. These are just ordinary working people of the town, the backbone of Southold by the way. You know, buslnesspeople, you know I have been on fundraising drives with my political party, the firehouse, the gun club, and everything like that- The pg 10 - PH businesspeople because they are handy, and they are the ones that support the hospital. You look at all contributions to the Eastern Long Island Hospital, it is all businesspeople. It is all these Mom and Pop operations. They are the backbone of Southold. If you do this to them I think it is a great injustice. I can't help it. That's the way I feel. SUPERVISOR.COCHRAN: Thank you, Henry. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? CAROL CUBINELLI: My name is Carol Cubinelli. I have no interest in any property here, but I service all these properties, especially Windsong. There isn't weekend, I don't think, that I don~t stop there, and I think it is very unfair to take their business away. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: had the opportunity. Thank you. George, first until everyone has GEORGE PENNY IV: I just want to add to something. My property, a small half acre there, gave the right of first of refusal on Miloski. It was her intention to purchase it sometime in the future, that property. When I consummated the deal on the original one, we had a handshake, that the real estate broker know about, because it was intention sometime in the future that she would like to have the first shot at that property. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Mr- Meinke? HOWARD MEINKE: I am Howard Meinke of the North Fork Environmental Council. Just a comment, I think that throughout these hearings we keep hearing the focus on individual people, and really don't talk about the overall goal of what we were trying to do. Now, Henry Smith said they are all hardworking people. Nobody is going to do a Tanger mall or what have you. I am sure that is true, and if it comes out that we are really beating to death little people, we shouldn't be doing that. But, obviously as time passes developers accumulate properties. They have real estate departments that do that, so just because we have little businesses there now it seemed innocuous doesn't mean that they can't be accumulated and something else done, so the desire to make the zoning such that can[t happen ~s, in our opinion, an admirable goal, and sounds to me like it would be admirable here. The difficulty is, are we or are not really inflicting great damage on people, and that is for the Town Board to figure out. I suspect that it is possible for the people on the outside looking in to say that there is no damage. That is probably not correct. There is probably much history on it stemming from the people directly affected- So, somewhere in between is where it really lies, and the Town has to figure out how to handle that, but overall the majority of the citizens have voted to save the farms, save the vistas, try to keep the rural aspect of Route 48. So, by and large, there is a basic desire that is shared by everybody, and we are getting extremely hung up on the mechanics of how you are going to achieve that. The fact is there is a majority of folks time and time again in various reports supporting those goals, and you can't lose sight of the goals while we sit here and argue each property. I don't say that meaning, the hell with the property owners, just charge ahead, but somehow time is passing, and the big developers will have their agents operating under assumed names and mysterious real estate companies out pg 11 - PH buying property, and putting things together to try to do what Riverhead Center on Route 58 is trying to do- So, I think there is a problem here, and I think the Town has to make the first move, it has to do something, and I thought, we thought, that this Route 48 corridor initiative was the first thing to do, the way to start doing something, because we have done a lot of talk. We haven't done anything, and apparently the majority doesn't realize that something should be done. Thank you- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Howard, you used one term that I am just going to correct you on, and I don't consider this arguing. Okay? This is a public hearing. The process when you are going through a zone change Js to have input from the people that it affects, and so that is what we are doing. When this process is done, we have made no decisions yet, and when this part of the process is done, and we hear from Suffolk County and we hear from our Planning Board, then we will be making decisions. Up until that time none have been made. You know llke someone said earlier, it us against ~hem- I would like to think it is not- BOB JENKINS: Good morning. Town Board know how large the on County Road L~8 is? Bob Jenkins. Does Mr. Cramer or the largest piece of Business zoned property SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We have it all here. BOB JENKINS: come. It is just that this mysterious real estate developer could COUNCILMAN MOORE: There is an Industrial piece in Mattituck. BOB JENKINS: No, Business property. COUNCILWOMAN HUSSIE: About three acres. BOB JENKINS: I know Doroski Nursery is Limited Business. I don't think this hysteria of west end developers coming in and buying up business property on County Route 48. I think that County Route 48, certainly over 80% of it is Agricultural, or Agriculture Conservation, thanks to all the voters, myself and other business people included, that have voted for these wonderful farm preservation bills. I think that the County and the landowners in general have done a wonderful job of keeping County Road ti8 rural, and a very minute amount of acreage involved from Orient Point to Laurel Lane, that is zoned is not going to change the rural character of County Road [[8 other than if it was 100% developed, and there were would have to be more traffic going through. I think you should consider that, and the North Fork Environmental might take a different view of that if they really examined how small business properties are. Thank you- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Bob, to answer your question the largest one under B Zone is 13.31 acres. That piece is in Southold SA. In that entire zone, the biggest piece has to be in there for the total to be the greatest. BOB JENKINS: That is the total of five or six different pieces. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Yes, it is. Yes, ma'am? pg 12 - PH PAULINE PHARR: Pauline Pharr. Isn't there anyway, if you are worried about putting together, that the Town could say, no business property on the North Road larger ten acres, five acres, rather than changing the entire zoning from one end to the other, downzoning them to prevent something. There must be other ways to do this. Just as if you don~t want Home Depot, if there is some legal reason you can't say we will not permit large chain wholesale stores, or I mean you say that about McDonald type franchises, so if that is really what you are worrying about those kind of monster stores then isn't there someway of preventing them, which everyone would agree with. Is there some legal reason you can't do that, you can't discriminate against a store? COUNCILWOMAN HUSSIE: You can't prevent them from coming into the town at all, but you certainly can guide them where you think they might be the least offensive. PAULINE PHARR: Can you look at the size of the business acreage? COUNCILWOMAN HUSSIE: We have lot coverage rules. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: The size of property you are speaking. PAULINE PHARR: Can accumulate six properties in a row, and make narrow strip, forty acre, which would be long enough this to theologically put in ... I mean if you can do that, if you can prevent it that way. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: One at a time. please, if you have any knowledge of this? Greg, would you answer this, TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: I don't think you prevent an individual from accumulating adjacent properties. PAULINE PHARR: One huge thing? TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: Correct. PAULINE PHARR: In a LB they don't, because you have a lot say sixty feet is the width of the building. TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: That is the second part of what you are saying. The first part is whether you buy and put them together. You can. Some of the other things, which that business in town are you both scheduled here, you lot coverage, area, parking. Some other points that have brought up are if yeu look at both schedule there are sewer, water, depending what it might be. PAULINE PHARR: You done have those restrictions now to prevent someone from putting a monstrous store on A piece of property. I mean, Limited Business is part of loophole-.sixty feet. Sixty feet for a building, that it has to be spaced, and then another sixty feet. Now, if people were going to put in twenty-five sixty foot building, they could do that. That is why it is a boogie man this idea of Home Depot coming. In addition to which, we are like an appendage. North Fork is like an appendage. You know this isn't a place to have a business like that. It is at the end of pg 13 - PH the road, where all the trucking... The only reason I hear is I live here, and I was looking for some kind of business that would keep me here, but it is very inconvenient. I cost me hundreds of dollars extra each year to get the goods shipped out here. We are an appendage. We are not Riverhead, which is at the center of two forks and has a western exposure. We are different. We admit we are different. (Tape change-) SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Is there anyone that would like to speak that hasn't? Mr. Foster? ARTIE FOSTER: I really don't want to rip up the North Fork, and pave over it. I just have a couple of questions. I would really like to know exactly what the main reason is for all of this? I read many things. I heard many things, and I really just want to know .exactly what is the main reason all this happening? Just one sentence to tell me why this is going on, so that I will really know from the horse's mouth that half of the stuff I heard is untrue, and the other half that I read is also untrue. I just want somebody to tell me why. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Would you like me to answer? ARTIE FOSTER: Anybody. Anybody that can give me a good answer. That is all I want. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: The purpose is to maintain our hamlets, and to allow certain types of businesses on the North Road with less intense traffic, but if you look at many of the communities or village shopping in many of the towns bypasses become the business area, and the towns then begin to disintegrate. This is the theory. ARTIE FOSTER: And the vista view, I understand completely, but I also think from what I have seen that it is pretty much in place from east to Mattituck all the way down to Doroski's. It is what it is, and what it is going to be, and the places that are being affected are the places that already contain small businesses, and we really don't have the room, or wouldn't even get the room, or be able to get the variances to change into any kind of expansion because the lots are so small. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I think I gave you the theory in relation to Hamlet Business. Artie, don't see the vistas as the number one reason for this philosophy. ARTIE FOSTER: That is what is played up. That is what the papers are playing up, the vista. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I think that they have lost the point. ARTIE FOSTER: I know a little bit about it, because I was voted the worse vista in town, so naturally I have kind of a personal interest in this. I am really trying to clean up my act, so many next time around I will only be second worsted. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I am glad you have a sense of humor. pg 1~- - PH ARTIE FOSTER: In addition to that some of the RO designations that are going to be proposed to change just outside, it is my assumption that when you take something from an industrial or an LIO into a lesser use as you approach the actual hamlet the RO is one of these that come into place to allow.. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: It is part of a transition zone. ARTIE FOSTER: We have to define what they are going to be at this point in time, but I really think that in affect to put some of these further out of the hamlet area might suck a little bit of the existing businesses that are there now, where people have a commercial business, let's say in Cutchogue a lady has a hairdresser, and all of sudden she is now allowed to have that use in her home, and live upstairs, well., there we got another empty store in town. I can potentially see this happening if that is done, but you did answer my question. I appreciate it. I just really want to know, because if you read the papers it is very confusing. What we are all out there reaching for is maybe not what it is perceived to be. I just really wanted to know for myself why we are doing all this, because most of areas from what I can see the people that are here, that have worked all their life, as I have, might be committed to a sentence of working for the rest of their life, if the value is taken from the property, and I have to ir~cur with that really, because I am in the same situation. Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: sir? Anyone else want to speak that have not? Yes, GORDON SCHLAFER: Gordon direct a question to Mr. Meinke. bit about the harm this .,. Schlafer from 1670. I would like to I think he thinks we are guilty a little SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Sir, please, this is not a debate. This is a hearing. Address your remarks to the Board, please. GORDON SCHLAFER; I was wondering, I am sure Mr. Melnke is retired, and I am sure he is on a pension, and I would like him think about how he would like if somebody took his pension, and knocked off about 60% of it. That is what going happen to us, and that is what is going to happen to a lot of other people I know. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. I don't want this to get into a debate. HOWARD MEINKE: I would just like to say that I spent my life being a general contractor. I don't have a pension. I saved some money. I bought a house, and I think I do understand where you people are coming from. I am a small businessman. I was a small businessman. I was fortunate enough to build where..in a town in Connecticut. That was good place to build, and I live very frugally. I am very happy when the Social Security comes in, so I am not as fat a cat as some might think. I have just been coming out here since I was little shaver. My father started coming here 1932, and I think this is a magnificent place, and am interested in keeping it that way. I fully understand about that. I am not part of any conspiracy to take pg 15 - PH your value. I said earlier that I had heard about towns that put into place some more of arbitrators negotiation committee, so that if the Town went ahead, and did some of the zoning things, and if you could be affected you sit with representatives of real estate, or buildings, and town, of planning, or banking, etc., and determine what the real facts are, and the Town uses it's many methods between planning code changes, regulations, special exceptions, land swaps- There is a variety of things that you could do to help make you whole if you have the damage. So, I am not at all sure, that there is a need to ever get so excited about..well, maybe you should get excited because maybe it isn't clear how the solution is at the other end of the road. That is always unsettling. I understand .what you are saying here, but I don't think it has to go that way. I would hope that we could unite behind some method where we seem to agree that we don't want spoll this place, and in my .experience as a little kid in 1932 and going on, we haven't spoiled it yet. but it is harder to replace .now than it was then, and ~iaving seen what happened to the South Fork, and seeing some of the big ho~uses being built here that are creeping around from the South Fork, I think we can see the writing on the wall, seeing Riverhead developing. I think we do have to do something- Now, we can't do it and balance it on the backs of you people, as a politician like to say, but we really do have to do something I think. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you for your comments- want a debate back and forth. George? Please, I don~t GEORGE PENNY IV: There is a way to handle some of this. and it is a lot more gentle that this amputation you guys are talking about. If you are worried about the side by side cumulation of properties by some unknown real estate developer that is going to wipe out with a bulldozer all the small community who seems very happy to exist and stay there right now. I don't know that these properties are up for sale. One way is to reduce your zoning maybe one notch. Look at the notches. What is available? What can somebody put in a Business zone? Can a car dealer come out there on ~8 in a Business zone? 5omebody answer that for me. TOWN ATTORNEY YAKABOSKI: Yes. GEORGE PENNY IV: They can. Fine. Kick them to the Light Industrial. What are the intense uses that are in a business zone are you afraid of? Take them out of it. It is a very simple thing. You don't have to go from B Business to RO to make a change. You could take an LB zone as a Limited Business zone, kick somebody from a B down to a LB, and make retail an allowable use with outside sales and storage. End of story. Then nobody big is going to come along and buy it, because the way it is going right now if you put a burden on a small business community, this burden of non-conformity, this burden of non-expansion means that they can't grow with the future. When they can't grow with the future, and can't compete with big box stores that are Riverhead, then they can't compete. The first thing they are going to do is go out of business- Then when they go out of business some big developer is going to come in, and he is going to be fine. One, two, three, four, five empty stores, and he is going to come into the Town Board, and he is going to say then to the Town Board, I would like a zone change, because this is a rundown area. There is nothing there. Those stores have been vacant for five years, and some Town Board pg 16 = PH outside of yourselves is going to give this guy the zone change, and there. we have lost everything we have tried to gain. That is what you are doing by stopping, by cutting off, by cutting the life out of your small business community. I have been in the small business community all my llfe. I know what it is like to be non-conforming. I know what it is like to have to appeal to a Board of Appeals for every time you want to make a turn. You go and beg for your rights. This last Master Plan took care of that. It put legitimate uses in legitimate zones. Conformity was our goal, and believe you me we are going in entirely the wrong direction. You sending the wrong message here to the small business community. There is nowhere for us to go. You can fix that, but this is not the way to do. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, George. Someone else had their hand u.p. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? (No response) If not, I will adjourn until the next session at ten. 10:00 A.M. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: This part of the hearing will cover Greenport lA, 2A, and 3A, and Bill will read the tax map numbers and the owners of the property. COUNCILMAN MOORE: The properties that are being discussed now are Section 40-3-1 Kace LI LLC, 45-2-1 John Siolas and Catherine Tsounis, 40-3-6.1 Richard and Anita Wilton, 40-3-6.2 Linda Wilton, 40-3-7 Steven and Lenore Atkins, 40-3-8 Antone Malinauskas, 40-3-9.3 Agnes Dunn, 40-3.9.4 Susan Malinauskas and part of 36=1-25 Peconic Landing at Southold. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Most of the people in this area did come in last evening, but if there is anyone else that would like to speak in relation to these properties we would be very happy to have your input. Bob? BOB JENKINS: Regarding the Peconic Landing, I see you propose Limited Business to RS0, and think that is the piece that has Brecknock Hall on it, and I have read, and have been told, that they hope to make that into a cultural center of some type, which I think is a fabulous idea, and I don't know if that would be allowed under RS0. 5o, I think if it is allowed under LB that it should stay LB, and not be changed. We might all benefit. The other piece of property that I am familiar with is Mr. Mclntosh's piece, which is scheduled to go from HD to RS0, and I am a little familiar with the piece of property, and I thought since it was Reverend Young's house originally back in 1650, and it is located in a beautiful spot next to a potential center, what a great country inn it would make. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: It is a lovely home. BOB JENKINS: It would make breakfast, but a country inn, and but it would be allowed under HD. that. That is all I have to say. a great country inn, not a bed and I don't think that is allowed under RS0, 5o, I think you might consider keeping pg 17 - PH SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thanks, Bob. Anyone else llke to address the Town in relation to these properties, Greenport? (No response.) If not, I will close this part of the hearing, and the next session will take place at 11:00 o'clock here somewhere. I am not adjourning. I am recessing. We will be looking at Southold 3 at 11:00 o'clock. The Board has some work to do. We have several resolutions to look at, and the modular trailer for the back of the building. 11:00 A.M, SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: This part of the hearing will cover Southold 3, and Alice will read the tax map numbers and the property owners. COUNCILWOMAN HUSSlE: Property #59-10-4 of Edward Koster going from LB to AC. All of these are going to that designation. Clifford Cornell, Lot #59-10-5, Ellen Bufe Lot #59-7-31.4, Alice Surozenski Lot #59-7-32, Jack Welskott part of 59-10-3.1, Alfred and Juliet Frodella part of 59-7-29.2, Clement Charnews part of 59-7-30, Walter Pharr, Jr. part of 59-9-30.4, Steven Defriest part of 59-10-2. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Alice. Anyone like to address the Town Board on any of these parcels? Mrs. Pharr? PAULINE PHARR: My name is Pauline Pharr addressing in particular Tax #059-9-30.4 owned by my husband. I would like to give you written summation of what he said last night for the record. Before I do I would just summarize and say that he pointed out the inaccuracies in Mr. Cramer's analysis of our whole section, and particularly the main reason he gave for changing us which was that there was a great potential for a strip center in that location, and if it is currently zoned LB, and in the proposed LB zoning retail strip centers are not permitted. You can only have a sixty foot building, and the only retail permitted is galleries, and craft work shops, so the question of putting in a strip center is muted. Now, I would like to address the question of vistas, which is being very important in the discussions. I own a house in Southold, that backs up to a farm field. It has a beautiful vista. That is part of the reason I bought the house. I love the vista, and I hope that it will stay in farm fields forever, but I know I don't own that vista. That vista belongs to the property owner, and by the courtesy of him I still have a view, but it did occur to me to go to the Town and say, change his zoning from Agriculture Conservation to Agriculture on,ly, so that he can never put houses there, because I want to look at it forever. But, such a proposal was made by the Suffolk County Planning Department Agriculture and Farmland Protection Plan quoted in the Cramer Study. It said of the radical zoning approach recommends the designation of Agriculture zoning category that would only allow agriculture. Now, if y01u did that to the farmlands you would be doing what you are doing to me in this proposal. Taking away, really, a major right by zoning. But, you choose not to that. You <:hoose to go to Agriculture Farm Preservation Program ~hen pay money for these rights, because it was a fair thing to do. Now, 'yesterday Mr. Moore said, we are not doing this out of benevolence. We are doing this because we are taking away the entire pg 18 - PH use of the property, I think what was, it is necessary. However, I don~t see that you are taking away the entire use of the property. When you buy development rights all you are doing is taking away the maximum use, which is housing. You are still allowing the farmer to use this land, to make a profit off of the land by farming, and if you made wastelands so they could do nothing with this land, then that would be more of what Mr. Moore stated when you said you have to pay because you were making it wasteland. You are not making it wasteland, so it really is in my mind a logical comparability between changing something to Agriculture only so that you don't have pay the farmer for development rights and changing a property to AC:, so that you don't have to pay to take away the business rights from that property. I have so many things to say. I bare been talking in my sleep for nights about all of this. What is the definition of Agriculture Conservation? Because this morning I picked up off. the table the purpose of Ag'riculture Conservation, which is the recommended zbne for our 8.8 acre 'propertY section. It says, the ~purpdse of Ac is to recently control and to the extent possible prevent t'he:unneces.sary Ipss of these currently op~n-, lands within the town containing, large and-continuOus areas of prime agricultural soil, which is a bas~s for' the significant portion of the t~own's economy, and those areas sensiti~e to ertvi.r0nment feature. There .are f. lve businesses and two homes [~ my~ section, incJud.ing the two bus|'nes~es, which were arbitrarily taken ou(. This is not a laPge area of pri~n~! a~r,icultural use. It is a strip of business property, which has been ~chere ,=for thirty years along Route [18. It does.n~t fit in Agriculture. I;t~do~'n't fit in Residential. I have a 5,000 square foot, and have had for ~7 years, unheated, warehouse. This is not a home by any estimation. For me :to sell this property as Agriculture Conservation someone would have l~u~.' it and blow up the building, and c~rt away all of that. to put a house on a four lane divided hi. ghway. Th~c doesn't make sense. NEither does .|t;:.ma,ke sense to buy a machine shop, knock it down, and put up a .house on ~a f~ur lane divided highway. What are you doing~then? You are taking away really almost all of the use of my property. I mean I have ob acre wlth'a buildi'!~g on it. Who is gqing to farm, that. That is a house next to me. If sonJ~one were to buy my building and that house, kn~ck them both down, So they could farm two acres? It iS cbmpletel,), sense[ess. $0, supposing you say, okay, we are going to leave the. bc~iildings that are there, because '.they haYe been there, but there is some !spots of open land tl~ere. It is zoned Business, that hasn't been developed, yet. Let's cha~ge th'em. Well, ~ive. years from now somebody is .... ' going to. come, along and say, what is Pharr Distril~utors doing there with all this a~gr~cultupal property around them. That i~ a spot of business that sh0uld~'t ..~e there. Let's change it to Agricultiural, then they will fit into the Ag~i~-ulture around them forgetting that you made me a spot of Agricultu're, because' I was in a whole contlnuaus secf. ion of Business, that had be~n z0r~d '~usiness for twenty years. But, fbi you to start changing the open piec~ arid making a checker board out of it, someone is going to come along aPd 'say that is spot zoning forgetting that they did it. You say, oh, that won't happen, but I heard young Tyler Cornell say, yesterday, that when his father went through all the Planning things for his ECCO building, the Board told him, the Planning Board, the Zoning Board, whoever, told him he had to have more parking spaces then he had proposed, so he had to put more spaces in front of the building, and when he put them in front of the b~Jilding now we are complaining that, oh my goodness, look at this, you have parking spaces in front of the building. We don't like that. Let's get pg 19 - PH rid of them. Well, you asked him to do that. Not you but your predecessors so people down the road can also forget that you asked me to become a little island, that is being preserved as LB with the property next to me or across the street from is changed to Ag. You did the same thing Mrs. Coster's property. If you left her spot, and changed the whole side of the road, somebody is going to come and take it away in the future. Now, I just wanted to say as a final thing. Southold Town has many resources. You know that. Business is one of your resources. The Cramer Report said 20% of the economic base of Southold comes from it's 700 to 800 privately owned small businesses. Agricultural products 16%. All of agriculture 16%. Business 20%. You are coming down very hard on business. You are not treasuring us. You are not saying, thlsl is something that we should encourage and maintain. So, I think the problems you want to address they are realiy problems. There is a better way-of doing it thent than making people's land virtually worthless. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to address the Town Board? LAURA KOSTER: Laura Koster. I addressed the Town Board last n|ght, and what I want to say is very brief. Pauline has researched this. She has done an excellent job. Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Is there anyone else like to address the Town Board or any of the parcels in Southold 3? CLEMENT CHARNEWS: My name is Clement Charnews. I addressed the Town Board last night on the Defriest property which I acquired now, I am also opposed to changing my house, where I live. It is listed Agricultural. I just figured it was a nice little place for a dentist office or something. I did have a few offers, and now it will devalue my property. I mean all I can say is I am opposed to this, I made that clear last night about the property on the north side. It is here under Steven Defriest, which is mine now. I am opposed to changing my place from Light Business to AC. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, Clem. Anyone else like to address the Town Board on any of the parcels on this section. Yes, ma~am? ELLEN HUFE: My name is Ellen Hufe. I am addressing the parcel (unintelligible) and I just want to confirm what Pauline Pharr has done. The research was absolutely excellent. I did speak on behalf of my parcel last night. I do need to reiterate that at this time. As I stated last night, I just want to reiterate, I found it very disturbing that (unintelligible). SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board on any of the parcels in Southold 3? Yes, sir? TYLER CORNELL: Tyler Cornell, once again for Cornell family. A quick question that I had that I realized last night. I asked the record to show that my notes should be taken from both parcels that were in question. Is there formal notes that are taking. pg 20 - PH SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Oh, yes. We tape the entire proceedings anytime you have a hearing, you know a public hearing, and it is all transcribed verbatim. We have asked for printed or written statements because it does help and support what is on the tape. There are time when people do not speak loud enough or there is a garble in here, and we don't like losing any words as they should be. That transcript will be available after the hearing is closed. Give us a little bit. In fact, the first sessions we have had are already being transcribed, so as soon as today is finished that will start being transcribed, and we are trying to get them out as quickly as we can. TYLER CORNELL: Great. On a personal note in defense of Mrs. Pharr's property, Mr. Pharr's property, if I may. I spent a lot at the house as a kid growing up, and watching their small business start out of their house. I got to pJay with the toys,and the things ' that they were d|stributlng. I d|dn't know what they were doing, and watch Mr. Pharr grow w~th a sm~ll business out of his home into a 5,000 square foot warehouse, and I remember my father always speaking so highly of his as far as how long and how hard he worked to get the business going. It is one of the reasor~s Why I always worked so hard and tried so baird, and. I would hate to see tl~at t~ken away- On the second note to do with our parcel, the one .that is being rezoned to Agricui~ural, I wou.ld like to reiterate my point as of yesterday that to take $10~),000 out of someone's pocket is pretty stuff, especially when they are 60 years', old and Would like to ret|re soon. I really ~1o. think that it should be done in a democra(ic fashion and the Vote to all: the people who want it, and those people who do want it pay for it. Even as far as we pay taxes ?for years b~sed on a cert~ain zoning for each piece of property. They were paying all .tl?ose taxes for .it, and now is not only the property devaluatedr but we don~t obviously get the zoning we paid for. There is another poirrt I would like to bring up. The second point is .intriguing. I don't know if it ~s a question or it is a point. It seems that most of the businesses in question, or the properties in question rigl~t now belong to blue collar' workers, and I highly doubt if there is any senti~nental discrimination.. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I wouldn't go that way. TYLER CORNELL: I am not looking to bring it up, but what my point is, can we have a granite shop in Feather Hill7 Would it be good for RobertJs Jewelers to be filled up with dust and cutting? We have prefabricated wires going into large companies up the island being done at the parking lot of Feather Hill, or across the sidewalk on the Main Road of town. Can we take a machine shop and have that noise going through the hamlet, and the homes that are in the hamlet along with the small businesses? Once again, I am just asking these things be taken into high consideration. As with Gerry Gralton yesterday nobody knew what do to with his building after it was rezoned. What do we do with our businesses? Where do we move to, or where do we sell them off to? Thank you for your time again- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board on Southold 3? (No response.) We will reconvene at 2:00 o'clock. pg 21 - PH 2:00 P-M. COUNCILMAN MOORE: The properties involved are 59-3-29 John and Joan Callahan, 59-3-30 Deborah Edson, 59-3-31 David Cichanowicz, 59-4-8 Timothy Gray, 59-L[-9 Jimbo Realty Corp., 63-1-1.6 Thomas and Susan McCarthy. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Board at this time? Is there anyone that would like to address the STEVE ANGEL: My name is Steve Angel. We are attorneys in Riverhead. I am here for a limited purpose in my representation to present protest petitions under Section 265 of the Town's Law in connection with the particular public hearings you just announced. I do have protest petitions on behalf of some of those people. That is David Cichanowicz, John Ross, Nicholas Batuyios, Carl and CarOline Graseck, Joseph Wallace, Lisa Crowley, a'r~l John and Joan Callahan. I also have a whole bunch of others that relate to the hearings that have both been held and are cohtinuing to ,be held. These are the originals with an index, and I have an extra one for the Town Clerk, and an extra one for myself. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board? Yes; ma'am? CATHY GRASECK: I am Cathy Graseck. I am in the firm of Southold QuaFry. My husband and his brother are the owners. I just wanted to let everybody know I just put together another letter. Dear Town Board members, Did you ever realize that economic loss of whole Route 48 rezoning would have on our community's economy. Besides the individual zoning, the owner's property, it would effect their families as well as all the employees of these companies that work with it, and it would also affect other businesses that are related to these businesses, because in a small community there are businesses that depend on one another. In our particular business we work with ceramic tile setters, and also with masons. We sell them supplies, as well as tools that they work with. It would cause a hardship'on them. They would have to drive at least an hour further out of their way to get these supplies. It would be more costly to do their work, and it turn it would cost the people who they do work for more money. So, this is another factor in this rezoning, and I wish you would consider when you vote on this issue. Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you very much. Anyone else like to address the Town Board on any of these Southold parcels for A, B, C? Mr. Penny? GEORGE PENNY IV: George Penny again. It was explained to us this morning somewhat briefly that the purpose of doing this is to reduce traffic on County Route 48, and I am not speaking for my property at this time, but it is same relation to the Graseck property, I would like it explained to me, if you would, please, in some many words, how making it non-conforming, reducing them to Residential Office is going to have a positive effect for County Route 48? pg 22 - PH SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Who would like to answer this one? COUNCILMAN MOORE: I think the thought, George, is that maybe it is part of the fear that goes on here is notion that that business can not continue. Of course, you know that it can. The point of zoning is it is zoned for the future. You take someone with a B zone and all potential uses of B zone, all the traffic generated from a B zone, and down the road in the future they want to change that use to something different, obviously you are stuck with what you have there, if you want to look at it as being stuck from a Planner's prospective, but that will have no impact whatsoever on the traffic at the moment. It is down the road, if and when the day comes that it changes and that use comes about it would be as intense as present, or less intense. Certainly never more intense. SO, the concern t:hat you have about losing your use, and losing .the ability to use your property as yqu presently do is an error, and-you are rea!ly looking towards the future. Down the road, fifteen, twenty, thirty, .forty, sixty years from'now, you are trying to zone for the ~uture not immediately for today's purposes, because the people of today are protected by the way the Constitution has the right to protect them, Zoning Codes protect them. That is what we are .talking about. GEORGE PENNY IV: So, this is all a grand scheme for thirty and forty years now7 COUNCILMAN MOORE: As any of our children or grandchildren will be there. The goal is to maintain the retail uses in the hamlets be extended back. We are not going to sit there and take away people's property rights today. GEORGE PENNY IV: property now in B? You mentioned you are changing from B, is there COUNCILMAN MOORE: I was just giving an example, B, or LB or RO. GEORGE PENNY IV: I asked specifically for that property, COUNCILMAN MOORE: I believe it is LB right now. GEORGE PENNY IV: With the size of their property as it is now, the requirements for expansion on that property, what much more seveFe? There are some scary edges to the LB Zone. COUNCILMAN MOORE: If you don~t want it in that location, yes. GEORGE PENNY IV: The LBs? COUNCILMAN MOORE: Yes. GEORGE PENNY IV: So what if you just remove some of those malignant LB uses from the LB zone, and that way they can change? COUNCILMAN MOORE; That is another solution. That was looked at a couple of years ago. That is what we looking at a few years ago- (Unintelligible) pg 23 - PH BOB JENKINS: Bob Jenkins, Cutchogue. I am just at a loss, and I don't know if anybody on the Town Board can answer it. I am at a loss as to the nature of the changes. It doesn't make sense that one business gets changed to RO, and another business gets changes to RB, especially if the business is off of County Route 48, no egress on and off the road, and it gets changed to RO, which is a less potential use, than an LB, which is right on County Road ~8. You have traffic going in and out of that building. I don~t know if the person responsible for recommending the changes explained to the Town Board why some would be RO, why some would B, or did he just say, okay everybody on this list B is LB, and the others RO. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We will be sitting with the consultant after the hearings are done, and he has been sitting here taking notes, and taking all you input, and we will evaluate that. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? CAROLINE GRASECK: I just wanted to ask a question. You say these new zoning proposal are for ten, twenty years down the road. Well, say there is somebody in the family wants to buy this property. They actually have to buy this property from the rest of the family members, wouldn't they be affected by this? COUNCILMAN MOORE: The use will continue from here until eternity. CAROLINE GRASECK: So, if we sold our business it could be sold for what it is to anybody, and our zoning would not be changed at all? COUNCILMAN MOORE: I didn't say that. The underlying zoning could change, but the use .. CAROLINE GRASECK: That's the same thing. COUNCILMAN MOORE: No, what you asked me could you sell your business, and I said, you most certain could. CAROLINE GRASECK: But the zone would change. So, it would be a devaluation of property. COUNCILMAN MOORE: If you are selling for the business, the business can continue. That is the question I am answering. CAROLINE GRASECK: But if the business is not complying with RO how can you sell the business and the building? You can't. COUNCILMAN MOORE: The law allows you to do that. A business can continue not withstanding in spite of it's non-conforming status. It would be better for you to hear from your own counsel, your own attorney, than to hear from me. But that is the law, a business can continue to operate in a non-conforming status. CAROLINE GRASECK: And they don't have to get any special permission? COUNCILMAN MOORE: No, pg 24 - PH CAROLINE GRASECK: Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: You are welcome. Sir? TYLER CORNELL: Sorry, I really didn't want to speak, but I think that Mrs. Graseck is trying to get to, where Mrs. Graseck wanted to sell her business she could get a great value for her business. If she wanted to sell her property separately then the rezoning would effect the marketability of her property, so she would still lose on the asset. She can sell her business but not the asset. So, although, it seems that she talk to her attorney. It would help where she was going with it. It is definitely true, but there is two assets there. Once the marketable goes down. Is that is correct? COUNCILMAN MOORE: The business would continue on that site- I don't how you separate them out, but I don't profess to a be a real estate appraiser- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else to address the Town Board? ELLEN HUFE: My name is Ellen Hufe. I have just been listening to some of the comments, and I am somewhat confused. Two things, Mr. Moore said shortly before that this is being done with thirty, twenty years down the road, and it is for our children and our grandchildren. I think most of the business owners here, or a good percentage of them, are precisely thinking about our children and our grandchildren also, thinking of their futures, so they could perhaps keep up the business. If they keep the business it is going to be valuable. Any connection with that, I don't know if you have ever tried to sell a business or part of a business, but it certainly is devalued, when you go to market it if it doesn't have the right zoning. I know that. I can't imagine trying to sell the business, the purchaser then wants to know what he is allowed to continue there legally as it is. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board on the Southold parcels on L~? (No response.) If not, we will move on to 2:30. 2:30 P.M. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We will be looking at what is listed as Southold 5A and the tax map numbers are? COUNCILMAN MOORE: Properties 55-1-11.1, 11.2, 11.3, 11.4, all of Ed Dart's, 55-5-2.2 William Penny III, 55-5-2.4 Thomas and Susan McCarthy, 55-5-6 John Satkoski and Rite Patricia. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone like to address the Board in relation to the parcels listed as SA? I think everyone was in last night. They all were. Anyone like to address in relation to SA? (No response.) The next are scheduled for 3:30. Yes, Bob? BOB JENKINS: This just goes back to selling your business, and what the property value might be worth. John has a business and is unable to pg 25 - PH continue in that business, so he leases the building and the property to Bill. Bill runs the business. He runs it poorly. The business is out of business. There is no more business, but John still owns the property, so John has a buyer for the property, but the buyer does not want to be in the masonry business. He would like to be the retail clothing stores, sell men clothing, but he is not zoned properly for that business. It does hurt the resale value of the property. That is my opinion. I might be wrong, but that is my opinion. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: the Town Board? Thank you, Bob. Anyone else like to address RONNIE WACKER: I have been out of town for a few weeks, so I am not conscious of the specific changes that have been recommended by the Cramer Report, but I just wanted to speak generally about my feelings about what the Town Board is doing. Is that okay at this time? I just want to, first of all, to congratulate the Board for doing something, because we have got to do something if we don't want to see Southold go to waste like the rest of Long !'sland has gone. I applaud you for tackling the thorny question of Route 4.8. Route 48, I think, is the canary in the coal mine. If it dies it becomes another Route 58, and the rest of the town will also be subject to decay. Look what has happened to Riverhead, every swap take out shop and supposed discount house has been allowed to stay up there. The rest of Riverl~ead has settled into lost business. Main Street has become a belonged throughway with empty store windows. Southold however is still a vibrant community, even though it too has been affected to some extent, but Riverhead mindless approval of the commercial monster Tanger Mall, but tourists ~till crowd our farm stands, and the youngsters run to pick pumpkins. Let's keep it that way. I ask you please to consider carefully and adopt the changes recommended by the Cramer Study as a first ~.tep towards ratification of full Master Plan, which has been works for the last twenty years. We need today to act bol~lly, to preserve and assure the area, and' assure our children will inherit a Southold that will be as attractive a commui~ity as it is today. Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board? GERARD GRASECK: My name is Gerard Graseck. Has any members of the Town Board or any of the Town have assessed any of the properties that they are planning to devaluate, the present assessment versus what it would be worth after? Has any property been assessed? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: No. GERARD GRASECK; Should we have our properties assessed now? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: That is your decision, GERARD GRASECK: Thank you- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: George? pg 26 - PH GEORGE PENNY IV: Back to this question of parking and traffic flowing, the reason for this whole thing. Let's use the Grasecks for an example. How many parking spots do you have? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Parking spot where, George? GEORGE PENNY IV: On their property. I believe they have filed a site plan, that has been approved by the Planning Board, consisting of zoning. COUNCILMAN MOORE: It would seem so, because it predates the Zoning Code. GEORGE PENNY IV: They have space for five cars, and people are not parking out in the street what difference is it going to make to the future of the town unless they Come in to increase their parking, in which case they have got to go through some stringent site plan review all over again, and really basically start from square one from I understand from the way the Code has been interpreted. If there is any change in the use or the intensity of use that although the Courts may rule this unconstitutional today, that the Town continues to pursue things in this area. So, why when the scrutiny comes up couldn't it be addressed at that point, and it just as easily turned down. I can't see anybody wanting to come and intensify a business when they can't provide parking- Where are we going with this? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: What is your question? GEORGE PENNY IV: Where are we going with this? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: What was it before then, seriously? GEORGE PENNY IV: They have spots for five cars- How is that going to have any negative affect on anything over the next thirty years? If the traffic flows out on the street I could understand, but if the traffic flows out into the street they are going to come into the town, and they are going to pay for more space, the Town is going to have to deal with it sometime in the future. Why are we assuming that the worse case scenario is going to happen to Southold C~uarry? That all of a sudden it is going to generate twenty, thirty, forty times more traffic just because they are there? Why are we making that assumption today? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I'm not making any assumption at this point, George. I am taking input from tile people involved, and my decisions will come after discussion and evaluation. If he needs thirty more parking places, God bless him, he is doing a good business. GEORGE PENNY IV: If he needs thirty more parking place, you make him non-conforming, he will not be able to expand his business to meet the needs of those thirty people. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: That is a statement. GEORGE PENNY IV: That is a statement and a question. I am just trying to find out where we are going with this, because I heard for the first time pg 27 - PH today that this whole thing was about parking, and Bill just stated earlier we dealing with something that is twenty or thirty years in the future. COUNCILMAN MOORE: We are talking about a number of issue here, George, no just parking. We can't just pick them out of the blue. It is the uses that are allowed in the zone, and how you would like to see your uses in your overall community developed over time, and that is what it is about. Where do you want your retail businesses? Do you want them in your hamlet centers. What kind of business do you want on Route L~87 That is what it is ali about. GEORGE PENNY IV: We did exactly that. We created the LB zone for the abuses that were heavy traffic generating uses. COUNCILMAN MOORE: Actually they were designed to be the non-heavy traffic generating. That was the purpose, and specifically for the non-traffic generators. GEORGE PENNY IV: And they were put on 48, because 48 was supposed to be... COUNCILMAN MOORE: That is why a significant amount of LB zoning is still recommended on 48, and why B zoning is to be rezoned. GEORGE PENNY IV: You lost me. COUNCILMAN MOORE: Go back and look over the whole town. There is still a significant number of LB Zones on Route GEORGE PENNY IV: But you are taking away the LB that already exist. In most cases you are reducing them to Residential Office. COUNCILMAN MOORE: We are going to work with the consultant on how he justified under those guidelines, and the Master Plan, which we looked at the recommendations, and now we are listening to your input on Business Office. GEORGE PENNY IV: Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board? UNKNOWN SPEAKER: would like to know when Mr. Cramer gives you his input on this whole study, can we also be at that meeting? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: You certainly can attend. It is a public meeting. You will probably not take part in it. It will be a discussion with the Town Board. It will probably be done through a Work Session of the Town Board. but you are more than welcome to attend. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Will it be in the paper? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN; Definitely. Yes. sir? pg 28 - PH TYLER CORNELL: I do apologize. Like I said I would rather not be around politics. Mr. Cramer is getting paid I would assume right now for his notes. We are all here leaving our jobs and everything else. We are not getting paid. Do we have the right to bill you for our time? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I am not going to answer that. TYLER CORNELL: I am not being wise. We are also all fighting to keep what we have. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We understand that. TYLER CORNELL: Why are we doing that? Let me step back a little. As you know I was in Florida for a couple of years, and I left there a few months ago to come up and see what I could work out .with my family and things of that sort to help them out. Since I left Florida there is about seven radical changes that have gone on in the small area of Clearwater~ where I was from. The Wind Dixie shopping center completely left and went into a bigger shopping center. Things changed, added, all of these different things have gone on in the last couple of months. Since I left Long Island to go to Florida in 1997 the only real change I see is a new industrial park. It has not been touched as far the zoning is concerned. Doesn't that mak.e that property more valuable if it is the only commercial industrial property in the area? That hasn't even been brought up yet. Somebody say something about this industrial property while we fight to keep ours, somebody else is going to worth a fortune down the road. This is our town, right?, I don't know who owns that industrial property but where are we going? We are going away from our people, going away from our town. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? (No response.) If not, we will recess until 3:30, and then we will come back to Greenport B, 1, 2 and 3. Then following the 3:30 will be the 5:00, which will cover Mattituck lA through Mattituck lB, and then we have at 6:00 more on Mattituck. 3;00 P.M. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We will be dealing with Greenport 1, Greenport 2, Greenport 3, B, B, B, lB, 2B, and 3B. COUNCILMAN MOORE: Property, Section ~5-2-10.5 Adrienne Solof, ~t0-~-I Suffolk County Water Authority, and 85-1-27.2, 27.3 Mclntosh property. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Is there anyone who would like to address the Town Board in relation to the Greenport lB, 2B, or 3B parcels? (No response.) Anyone like to address the Board on any general statements, or anything? GERRY WOODHOUSE: My name is Gerry Woodhouse. I live in Orient, and I work in the Town of Southold. I have lived here for about ten years, but my family has owned businesses and property since way back pg 29 - PH when. My great-great-grandfather was a Lutheran minister in the 1800's, who formed a number of congregations out here on the east end. When my husband and I were married we lived in Nassau County, and when it. came time for him to retire we thought seriously about where we wanted to go. I am younger than he, and was going to continue to work, and we choose to live out here for the reasons that I think many people do, the vista, the way it looks, the perfect combination of sky, and land, and water for us, and that is what has kept us living here. Because I have been a businesswoman myself for many years and appreciate the difficulties involved in the decisions you have to make when the kinds of changes that are being proposed affect people on the individual level. I can imagine I have be awa~e this week. I have read all of the studies and all the reports, and I can only imagine how difficult it is to hear things one by one when somebody talks about what they think might happen.to ~heir property in the future, and. how that wo~t[d be marked by the decls~ons you .are making. But I want to say 'that I think you have taken some~.¥ery courageous steps to do what you are dOing~ to have these hearings, :]~ave~the moratorium, to make the kind Of recommendations for changes that are going to affect everybody to ~he gre~ater good for the long term, and I think that is the issue. We are talking .about what happens on the individual personal level, and we also have to :~ balance that what happens for the~greater good, for the greater amount of peol~le over the long run. While individual changes, sometimes they are really hard to do, it is the big" picture, the broader concept that makes t~e difference. We have business areas. I have read every one of the studies over the last couple of years, and they all remarkable say the same thing. We have business hamlets. We have various, right ~0w that have bacon businesses, th?~ have bacon pieces of property, that ar~ very .suitable for businesses. S~, for those people who are concerned about businesses my suggestion woul~d be that if there isn't already been on the To~vn level, there be some liai$~.n with businesspeople, people who want to g~ in business, and people who want to purchase things for business where they can come and talk to som'.ebody who will apprise them of what is here already, what exists, and ~hy it is important to situate those businesses in a hamlet area- Now, I drive often outside the area to go and do my shopping, and do the kinds of things that I need to do, because I can't necessarily find what I have to. Does that mean that I want to have it in a strip .mall on the North Road? .Absolutely not. I ~want to come home to area that I love the way it looks, I don't mind driving a little further if I have to shop, and I love to shop in the downtown hamlet areas, because for me bften I am shopping alone. It is much safer for me. It is easier to park h~y car and go to businesses ~chat are there. I don't want to see them gon,e. When it also comes down to the issue of individual property rights, andi property values it is hard for me to listen to the heartbreaking stories of people without also thinking about the fact that, you know, I am a p~operty owner. I have rights, but property rights are not absolute rights. Because I own property does not mean that I can do anything I want with' that property. I have responsibilities. The kinds of responsibilities that go along with those rights are the kind of responsibilities that are there because what I do with my property isn't mine alone to do. It :affects everyone else around me- I can't put up on property anything that I want because I have neighbors around, and I live in a community, and so. everything has to be balanced in a broader, larger contents, and I think that is some of the issues that you are struggling with now, how to stay true to the larger broader context of what you need pg 30 - PH to be doing, and what kind of policies need to be in placed to protect all of us in the long run, and I would hope that as you make the kind of decisions that you are grappling with that the emphasis is on upzoning, not downzoning. There is mechanisms in place that deal with people who have exceptions or individual problems. They can be dealt with by Zoning Boards, and Ai-chitectural Review Boards. But the Board, the overall Board, I think your responsibility is to set for all of us a broad picture, the big policy issues, the broad stroke 'definition that will help all these other pieces be looked at in a intelligent way in the future, so I urge you to continue what you are doing, but to stay true to what all the studies have said, and what I think the majority of people in Southold who have supported scenic byways, the 48 Study, that we really want the open space, the vistas, the things that are so unique and special throughout our community p~eserYed for the town, because if Route 48 Jooks .like where I used to liye in. Merrick, where I used to live by :Sunrise Highway, I am not going to stay :here. My children .are not going to 'stay here, and my grandcl~ildren ..are not coming. So, in a long run the kinds:_~of~ decisions that will. k~ep the areas:~$pecial is certain areas, and zoned certain ways, are 'in the best public interest and make the most economic sense, and make the most business sense in the long run. Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCH~AN: Thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to add~:ess the Town Board? FRANK WILLS: My name is Frank Wills. I am a resident of Mattituck. I have been around here close to forty years. I have heard yesterday quite a few people who own property on 48, who have a business there, who will rezoned, and the indication of emotional feeling I got was that they thought they were going to be put out of business. I am certain that is not the case and the intent. The intent I believe is to control and regulate the future expansion ot~ what is going on in 1~8, and from on, and hopefully to limit what' could happen, because it isn't it will go back to 58 and go further east, further west, and see what kind of horrors happened, unless they are forever, unless we have an earthquake, or some other catastrophe the bulldozers will never remove all the buildings, and the stuff. The trees will be gone and so forth. When I built my house back in '63 there were really very few regulations and rules even though I had no background at all in electrical work I was allowed to put my own electric work, I was a business tech with the Long Island Lighting Company. If you go further, a few years .after that, I have several acres, and one of which was separated from where my house is. The zones were changed from one to two acres. If you ,go back probably forty or fifty years there may have been any zone. I ,think we have found quite that our nature, whatever it is. egos. enlargem, ent, greed, whatever, we want to do what we want to do, forget everybody else. We have learned through many, many years that doesn't work anymore. The old days, and when I started working people were allowed to work six days a week, eight, nine hours a day. I had to work a half a day on Saturday, very inconvenient. Eventually that changedr What I am trying to make is we have found that even though our own freedom is very critical, and the Constitution of the Laws protect it. We do have to think of somebody else. Our neighbors next to us up here a mile away basically represent what is good for the whole of us. The majority of us~ I believe, the .last few votes voted for the kind of thing that I believe this study is trying to do, to preserve what we have, to pg 31 - PH limit the growth, and not let it go as it has in the past. Medical terms described uncontrolled growth as a cancer. Most of you know what happens when you get one of those. I have been there, so I know. 5o my request and suggestion to you is to seriously consider what is recommended in the Cramer Study, to approve it, and assure people who are in business on 48, unless you add 25 in addition to this. It is surprising that wasn't included in the study. But, no, you are not going to put it on, but any future growth or changes will be controlled or limited. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN; Thank you for your comments. else like to address the Town Board? Would anyone TYLER CORNELL: Tyler Cornell. For my understanding is there any possibility of it addressing speakers previous who have spoken on their feelings about their view on the moratorium on 48? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Give it to me again, Tyler. TYLER CORNELL: May I ask the previous speakers a question as to their feelings on the Route 48 Study? The two people that just spoke, I was wondering if I may ask them a question? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I think they expressed their position. I don't want to get into a debate going back and forth, so why don't you ask the Board the question, and then if they feel free they can answer. Okay? TYLER CORNELL: I realize everyone feels strongly. Once again, I am wondering how much the people who (unintelligible) are willing to compensate the owners of the property that will be affected by a minimum of $2,000,000 devaluation of their property? That is the basic question. Who compensates the owners? My father started his business in a station' wagon with $1,800 in his pocket. He took his money, and reinvested in the town, bought property. The valuation of one piece of property goes from $100,000 plus to $3,000 or $4,000. How does he get compensated? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I don't know. I am saying this, but it has not been determined if a compensation is due. That is something that is all a part of any future discussion. That input has been given by many, many of the owners, that they feel if you are going to take their property rights, and change them that they should be compensated. Okay? TYLER CORNELL: Does the Board have a plan to ask the people in favor of the Route ~t8 changes as to how much they are willing expend personally to keep those changes alive? COUNCILWOMAN HUSSIE: The subject of money hasn't come up at all. doubt that it (unintelligible) SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I don't even know if you can legally use taxpayer money to compensate an individual in this kind of a thing. Those are all unknown questions at this time. COUNCILMAN MOORE: You are presuming the right to be compensated. You can't presume that right. pg 32 - PH TYLER CORNELL: Well, I am asking. COUNCILMAN MOORE: The question gets sidetracked when you say I have to be compensated. You know we take the farmer from three acre to two acre zoning there was no compensation. The farmers said, gee I think my property was devaluated. Back in 1957, 1956, there was no Zoning Code in the Town at all, and so when the Zoning Code was put in place it sat there and said, you are going to have residences here and businesses theret and industry here, and in 1957 the person who sat there and said, gees, I would have loved to put the sauerkraut plant, or the warehouse, or the manufacturing facility, but now you are telling me it rs residential. No compensation was on there either. TYLER CORNELL: Does it seem a little unconstitutional? COUNCILMAN MOORE: That has been argued and debated in front of the Supreme Court for a long, long time, and I have always told people who own property who feel that the Board has gone too far to consult with the people you are dealing with, the real estate, and the attorneys that you know, and say, hey, has this gone too far. Is this a taking of my property as it is understood to be? I don't want to counsel you on whether that has been proposed here or not, but you know when someone comes in, and says, gees, I have got a piece of LB property, and I think it ought to go to B, and if whatever reason the Board grants that. TYLER CORNELL: I completely agree with your recommendation with the exception of it would impact (unintelligible). So what can someone in out Position do? COUNCILMAN MOORE: You certainly made your position really good. I understand it well. TYLER CORNELL: It hurts. COUNCILMAN MOORE: I understand that. All I can see ist I am not your attorney. I would say, go talk to your attorney, and say, this is what is proposed, what do you think? Give us the kind of guidance that you would suggest. TYLER CORNELL: Back to the original question, is there a plan to get the information from the public. I mean you are getting it from the owners right now. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: This is public hearing. COUNCILMAN MOORE: This is not just for the owners. TYLER CORNELL: What does that mean? Does that mean that the owners have spoken probably four times as much as the non-owners that we win, or is there a formula7 SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: There is no formula. We are taking your input. It will become a part of the entire discussion. pg 33 - PH TYLER CORNELL: Once again I appreciate it. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I am going to call if there is anyone else who would like to speak to the Board before I come back to you, Gerry. Well, do the question quickly. GERRY WOODHOUSE: I have heard lots of people talk about the fact that property values will go from $100,000 to $;Z0,000, $3,000, $2,000. if this changes, and I wonder what evidence there is, or have there been appraisals, proposed appraisals, that show or link this community or other communities when changes are made, the direct financial impact, that the change in zoning laws, as opposed to other things? For example, I lived in a community where I had a piece of property that in one year it was $~00,000, another year it was worth $200,000. It nothing to do with anything ether than that is the market goes. The .;market fluctuates. So I wondered if anything like that, I don't recall reading the study anything like that. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We didn't do any appraisals. GERRY WOODHOUSE: Or if there is anything that is a guideline for people that might quell some fears about the fact that zoning changes would have a downsize in terms of the economy as opposed to a upsize in the value of the property? The property could become more valuable if there is limited amounts of property for vineyards or agricultural uses. I have seen so many people come from other areas to purchase agricultural property, because they want have a vineyard, they want to have a farm. That property will become more and more valuable the less property there is for people that want that usage, so is there anything out there that could help this man back here, other people who are struggling with that issue of finances? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: It is an unknown. COUNCILMAN MOORE: Real estate appraisers can help in that respect. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: But then it is the market. GERRY WOODHOUSE: You have heard all the nuclear power leaks that have happened in Japan. You could have something like that happen in Connecticut again, and the property isn't going to worth anything anyhow, because there is so many outside things that affect it. So, I think it is hard for people who own property to get a fair sense of what is going to happen if there is nothing that can provided for them in terms of.. Is there any other part maybe Mr. Cramer knows, or other people, is there any other part of the country where changes have taken place, or other parts of the state, that can demonstrate the affect of zone changes on property rights? COUNCILMAN MOORE: Look at our town, look what happened in '83, one acre to two acre zoning. GERRY WOODHOUSE: Well, how much is that property worth now? pg 34 - PH COUNCILMAN MOORE: That is a rhetorical question· It wasn't meant to debate as to how it happened, but in the interim you had the stock market crash and the economy went confluey. In the interim it is backed up, so GERRY WOODHOUSE: if somebody could do provides... If you hold on to it long enough. I was wondering some kind of research to see if there is anything that SUPERVISOR Town Board? please. Bob? COCHRAN: Thank you. Anyone else like to address the I am going to wait and see if there is anyone else, Tyler, BOB JENKINS: Perhaps the Town Board could enlighten the audience with the requirements necessary to build a house, that is .80,000 square feet, two acres. A two acre parcel costs X number of dollars. A residential office, which I think is ~0,000 square feet, one acre, half the land necessary to build a house. Hamlet Business which I think is 10,000 square feet, one quarter of an acre. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: With water and sewage. BOB JENKINS: Which certainly is much more valuable if you own two acres to put eight businesses on it, and Limited Business I believe that is 80,000. That is also two acre zoning. Yes, I would think that different zoned certainly have different economic values. If you are in one zone, and requirement are ~0,000 square feet, and you switch to another zone, forty thousand square feet. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: the Town Board? Thank you, Bob. Anyone else like to address TYLER CORNELL: Tyler Cornell from Southold. How about some of the people in the audience, llke Bob was trying to do. When I first got out of college, and I was trying to make money to get back here I started off as a loan officer for a mortgage bank. Specifically my job to do as efficient as possible (unintelligible) If I didn't get paid at the end of the week. With that I came knowing the appraisals, and knowing the property before it was appraised and what affects the mix use for rezone as we have on our property. I then became a manager of a part of that bank, and I can assure you when leases are limited, zones are changed, I won't say downgraded, but it affects the property values substantially, and the marketability of that property. You got one person that is living by a vineyard, agricultural property may be in demand at that point, but what is definition of demand? You might get double your money if it is worth from $3,000 to $6,000. You might even get four times, say, $16,000 or $21,000, but the current zoning of our property particular over $100,000 it is worth, even if we got that $16,000 or $20,000 for it if agricultural was in demand. It is not in demand the same way that the Zoning Map currently has this. (unintelligible) SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Anyone else like to address the Town Board? (No response·) We will come back at five. At five we will be going again pg 35 - PH for the second time, Mattituck lA, lB, and at six we go to Mattituck 2A, 2B and 2C. Then our hearings will continue through the 7:00, 8:30. 5:00 P.M. Public Hearing on Mattituck lA, Mattituck lB. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Public hearing remain open because the neighbor to my north, I just spoke to him on the phone, and he is indicated he would like to join in the protest of the zone change on that piece by submitting his own 265 Town Law protest, as a adjoining property owner. The remarks that I made yesterday were specific to the piece, and I think that supplements those remarks, and I wanted to get them into the record- Will the hearing be open until October 12th? JUSTICE EVANS: The l~th. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I wilt have that protest to you in the next few days. One other question was in regard to the filing of the Environmental Impact Statement underlining this study, has there been a finding statement made on that? COUNCILMAN MOORE: We did- UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Finally attached to the specific comments is Saland Real Estate's letter, also the survey of the parcel. I attached a one page general comment addendum to the public hearing comments, which I think some of the forms have been before, but I just wanted to make sure that they were in a the record. I think I will leave a, what do they call that, teaser for you to read the entire written presentation, because you have the last pages and it is general comments in regard to the study, and I think with that I have said what I need to say, except I want to say one final thing. I was last night, as I was watching the Met win, I had occasion to review, because I know that you all have the County Road 48 Corridor Land Use Study Recommendation discussion, and I found in regard to M1 I found two questions, and answers that struck me as unexpected, and they are these. On page 3 if this particular strip is unexpected in view of the comments in the underlying study about vistas, does the present site, and he is referring to all the M1 sites, include scenic views known to be important to the community? Answer, no. So, if this site inclusive of my piece does not include scenic views know to be important to the community, then certainly the underlying reason of protection of the vista is not as essential-.is not present to the underlying zone change. The second answer that surprised me is on page 6, is the proposed action consistent with the recommended uses adopted with the recommended uses in adopted local [and use plan? Yes, and this is a reiteration of a point I made earlier, and sit down. The reason that that M1 is zoned the way it is, as you know, is from the '89 study, that they wanted to have hamlet areas expand not east-west, but with the hamlets, and his proposed rezoning may be consistent with his plan, but the question is the proposed action consistent with the recommended uses in adopted local land use plans. He answers, yes, at least in regard to that rather important point- The answer should be, no. That if you are going to do this on N1 you are going to have to determine that the '89 idea is a bad idea of having pg 36 - PH extensions of the hamlet onto North Road, so as to avoid extensions of commercial development running east-west. You want it on north-south. I think that answer more correctly should have been, no, because the proposed action is inconsistent with the recommended uses. In adopted local land use I would argue on the proposed use. That is all I have to say, and I thank you for listening. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Anyone else like to address the Town Board7 Mr. Foster? ARTIE FOSTER: Good evening. I am Artie Foster. I own property in the .area of these proposed zone changes. This proposed change will not affect my zoning, but it will hurt me another way. I am presently zoned l,ight Business. Prior to 1989 we were zoned in the heaviest business use. My property in '58' housed bulldozer sales and 'service business, 'Kenneth A. Pappish. It now houses my business, which is heavy; equipment' also, but not in the service business..Next to the~ off premises ;as well as Town and County road signs this was voted the worse vista in town. The properties on either side of me are scheduled to be changed from LIO to '1{80, Iow density housi.ng, aide now non-conforming but pre-existing. The piece across the street is where I_ieb would like to plai:e his winery. This will also' go to RS0 and change. On the northeast corner we have a small strip type mall shopping center, and me on the catty-cornered to it. I can see the writing on;.the wall. If this is changed to RS0 and I~ouses are built next to me it will restrict me in operat~ing my business as I do now. Usually I ride to work .around five' in the morning to prepare for the upcoming dayt and in pre~a~-ation I start up trucks bulldozers, abd sometimes some welding repai.rs to do which in~/olves cutting, grinding~ ~ledgehammer noise and so forth. This work is done primarily outside,' and' is really quince loud and I am sure ~t is going to be 'quite unacceptable at .5:30 ira the morning- So, if you rezone thins, adjourning land to residentibl, and houses are built on this property it w0n[t be long before my residential neighbors will be trying to dictate my h~urs of operation, and the c~hdit~ion of' my property, which I.try to 'keep ~s neat as possible considering the use is for due to my line of work. How much noise or. even how dust may be created by the trucks pulling on my ;property. There is one issue .;I t~hlnk everyone should be aware of, and that is traffic. Since the 'road -was. res~urfaced a few months ago we have gone from a dangerous inter, sectt&h to .-a deadly one. The screech of tires out there now since they .brdugKt all of this to one lane is about a frequent as sneezing i'n a pepper factory, and I mean, we are constantly running out there to see did it ha. ppen, or didn't it happen. Before we u~sed to have cars jock into posit[pn primarily in front of me, and on the other side heading east and west~ now, because of the lane changing it extends all the way down to Horten'~' Lane, and see Bill smiling. He has expet-i~nced it I am sure. So, it h~as rea'fly gotten kind of worse, and it is another prime spot for a traffic lig]3t. As Mr- 'Dart said in his presentation yestet'day that. what better place ~o have a business at a controlled intersection.' I strongly urge that this zoning change not be done. Leave the present zoning in place and perhaps yi~u might consider Changing my zoning back to LIO, so that I will no longer be non-conforming, and can establish my property v~ues to what they were before the zone change in 1989, and you know it a!l comes down to money- When you decrease the intensity of use it d~valuat~es the land, and I had my land sold for $650~000, and a totally pros~pective buyer found out that pg 37 - PH he could not use the land for it's intended use. But he could have prior to the zone change in a '89. Of course, we were unaware of that, and didn't know about it until after the fact, but now I am trying to get $300,000 for the property, and I can't seem to do that, because of the lack of uses, so I guess it means I am sentenced to a llfe of work with no retirement, because my retirement fund has lost it's value due to the wishes of the previous Town Board. It appears to me that this present Board is heading down the same L~8, 48 corridor which may be a vista for some but a financial disaster for others. That is basically all I have to say. I have a copy of this if you would like it for the record. SUPERVISOR .COCHRAN: Would you please. We would appreciate it. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? COUNCILWOMAN HUSSIE: Artie, you mentioned that you have the honor of been selected as the ugliest property in town a number of times. I guess there is sort of a reverse prize there, or something. Have you ever considered taking the cesspool structure away? ARTIE FOSTER: Yes, I did. I consider it, but I told Mrs. Cochran that if she could get Bob Schroeder to get his down, I would take mine down. COUNCILWOMAN HUSSlE: Why would you the gentleman... ARTIE FOSTER: Well, actually that was depicted in the paper as cesspool rings, and nondescript businesses they said, but actually there is a lot worse spots than that in town. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: This was a contest, and the public voted on it. The public selected you, but I think it was as much the wires and telephone poles as it was your cement. ARTIE FOSTER: That was going to be my next statement. The signage that is is in that area... SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Is heavy. ARTIE FOSTER: There is two or three off premises signs, which showed up in that picture that don't even belong to me, but they kind of picked me out as, you know they said nondescript businesses, and there is this big sign, Artco Drainage. That doesn't seem very nondescript to me. So, I am not blaming anybody for that. I just mentioned it, because you know this is all about a vista. There is no vista there. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to try and create one. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: You couldn't afford that much advertising, Artie. ARTIE FOSTER: You wouldn't believe the phone calls. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I am sure. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? . pg 38 - PH DELORES PRINCIPI: I am Delores .Principi. I know I mentioned it last time. I know that one of your real concern is the traffic- I do not see how .you can make our pieces, RO with houses with children. School buses have to stop and pick up the children, and that stops traffic both ways, and if your concern is .vista and traffic flow you have to consider school buses when you are going to' make all of this residential. I know I said it last time. I just wanted to reiterate. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Good. Now it is in the record. Also I would like to enter into the record, I had letter in my folder in my office from Ellen Hufe, sent certified mail, and I will give it to the Town Clerk, and it becomes a part of the record, of which the Town Board will get a copy. A~yone else like' to address the Town Board? (NO response.) If not we will come back .at 6:00 o'clock, and we will be doing Mattituck 2A, 2B and 2C. At 7:00 we continue with Matti~uck. 6:00 P.M. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We will be taking input on Mattituck 2A, Mattituck 2B, and Mattituck 2C. Now, over here we do have, which you might want to call a program, and it tells you what is scheduled and the listing of the people's names if anyone wants a copy. If not, Bill, will you please read the tax number and the owner of the properties in this section of Mattituck proposed change? COUNCILMAN MOORE: Properties being talked about now are 141-3-43, which is property of Alice Funn, 141-3-44 Clarence Booker and others, 141-3-45.1 Mattie Simmons, 141-3-~5-2 North Fork Housing Alliance, 141-3-41 George Penny Inc-, 141-3-21 Harry Charkow and Wife, 141-3-19 New York 5tare Hostel #.1077, 1~1-3-26 Joseph and Janet Domanski, 141-3-27. Margaret Ashton, 1~1-3-28 Raymond Nine, 141-3-25-1 Raymond Nine, 141-3-29.2 Arnold Urist, part of 141-3-38.1 Geroge Penny Inc., 141-3-22 Raymond Nine, 1~1-3-32.1 William Guyton, 1~1-3.29.1 John Sidor, Jr. and Others. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. We would like to thank you for joining us, and at this time anyone that would like to address the Town Board we will be happy to take your comments. Mr. Penny? GEORGE PENNY IV: Thank you again. George Penny. I have here a new set of petitions with a different number on them against the rezoning. As I mentioned at the earlier, unless there is a mix up somewhere to make sure that I am covered, I have a second set. I, also, have six copies of the letter here regarding our commercial borrowing from North Fork Bank that I can share with all. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thanks, George. GEORGE PENNY IV: There are somewhere in the neighbor of 32 or 35 of us, although not everybody is here tonight, and one of the questions, or one of the things that have been a topic lately, as I tried to explain to people why the Town would want to change my zone. I thought the · . pg 39 - PH opportunity would be here for the Town to explain to everybody here present why they want to change the zone, because I believe it is your obligation to do so. It is on the Town's own motion, and yet it has never been explained to me, or to anyone else that I am aware of. As it was explained today, at an earlier session, traffic seems to be a majbr consideration, and if somebody from the Town Board would care to fill us in here, so that we can all have a greater understanding of why the Town is acting in this direction. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: I would be very happy to answer,' George, first. If anyone else would like to they certainly can feel free. I have said this in 'one of the other sessions that the main reason for limiting certain types on the. Main Road, is to keep your hamlets healthy, to keep your businesses in the hamlets. As you Know, if you look to the west, and this is' a philosophy of planning, okay? I am' not stati'ng my position at this time, and I Will not do that until l have all the 'input from eveFyone, and we talk w~th. the fellow that wrote .the plan, ~and. wi~ come.up with some compromises, solutions, whatever. But, intent, the mai.n intent in my mind was to keep bus'ness in the hamlets'. You can look to Riverhead, Central Islip, on on, dn again,' where business has left th~ hamlets', and gone up on bypasses be it Wesconsett,. be it Riverhead, be it Smithtown Bypass. It goes on and on- and on. Another thing the Plan ta'lKs about in philosophy is '~ista, another one traffic. The business are lower density, demand for traffic, which you can argue that also, · bat' that is the phi!os~phY of planning for the future, and that is what we are looking at. No decisions have been made. GEORGE PENNY IV: I understand that. You talked in generality, but specifically how would changing the zone of Penny Lumber, which is not allowed in the hamlets, we are a light industrial property, who have been in business for 109 years, how will changing our zone help in any way, or what is the reason for changing our zone? SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: It is part of the plan. It is not my recommendation. It is part of the plan in changing- I won't make my comments now in relation to your property, George, not until we are finished with the whole process. GEORGE .PENNY IV: I don't want to put anybody on the spot, except that I feel from what read, and what I heard that we are ent~itled .to have an answer, and it has been very difficult, if you can't explain it to me how I can explain it to everybody at work what is going on. One thing I would like to see addressed, I don"t want to spend a lot of time, because I know there is a lot of other people here who would like to talk. but approximately a quarter mile east of us under this plan the Town is talking about increasing the intensity of several parcels of property on Mattituck Creek. Now, I have spent quite a bit of time on the Town Board, and when we did them whenever we discussed marinas there has always been quite an impact of traffic, etc., etc., depending on how many slip are put in. Does anybody know that in this plan, or this grand scheme of thing how slips could be put into Mattituck Inlet? pg [[0 - PH COUNCILMAN ROMANELLI: I don't think any forward for that zone, so no one really knows. would increase the intensity of use. marina plans have come You are right. It probably GEORGE PENNY IV: In the planning process when you address the change of the zone somewhere along the line the impact from that change of zone has to be addressed. I mean you are not going to make 20 acres marine, and expect to have one slip. I mean if you are going to do something that is supposed to' be of benefit to the town somewhere along the line that impact should measured. COUNCILMAN MOORE: The consultant talking about the M zone, those were some ideas that he has presented for us to mull over. He also has said that in that particular instance in that area is going to require far more additional analysis, and he doesn't recommend that we take ac%ion that way. That was part of t~e Io0k at the .Corridor Study~ that ~recommended idea that he has, but has not acknowledged to us it is go~ng to require analysis. He wouldr~'t expect us, or suggest to us. to enact an M2 zooe up there without further study. He said that area by itself would justify a study all by itself. GEORGE PENNY IV: I just want to repeat that Penny Lumber has been on the present site, and is existing. It is not a figment of somebody's imagination. It is not a Planner's dream. It is not something that is in the grand scheme of somebody's future. We have been there since 1890, and yet you asking us when you look at this as an overall project you are asking us to sacrifice, because of something on Route 48, or for some greater need for the community to reduce traffic. Meanwhile two blocks or approximately a quarter of mile east of us you are saying that it is perfectly alright that you are going to take the traffic away from you, Penny Lumber, and we are going to make you non-conforming, but in the meantime we are going to increase the density less than a quarter mile from you in an area that may never be developed- I heartily feel that this is part of an unjust plan. I would like, at some point, for somebody to be able to explain the rational of how two intense changes can happen. One may not happen because it requires more study, but it doesn't require any moFe study, just a decision of four or five people on a T6wn Board to take mine away. We are already in existence. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: the Town Board? Thank you, George. Anyone else like to address DON' SAYRE: My name is Don Sayre from Southold. I work for Penny Lumber, and have been there 25 years. I am opposed to this change of zoning in Mattituck, because it may affect my job, the business. We have over · thirty employees working at Penny's Lumber, and they all signed letters that I want to present to the Board in opposition to this change. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thanks. Don. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? ARNOLD URIST: I am Dr. Arnold Urist. I have a small medical practice in an old white frame building by the railroad tracks on Love Lane, and currently we have the office on the ground floor, and we have a one room pg ~-1 - PH apartment that we rent to a tenant. Now, with the rezoning, one, can I keep my office and rental apartment the same way, and if and when I sell the property can it be sold as an office/apartment for rent? And, what happens to my taxation with this rezoning? Will it go up? Will it go down? What does this do for my property value? What does it do for taxation? What does it do for my property utilization7 COUNCILMAN MOORE: Sounds what you have right right now is exactly what your RO district would allow. If the Code changes it will be exactly what you are doing. ARNOLD URIST: We don't have more than two or three, in any given hour more than two or three cars. COUNCILMAN MOORE: Professional office fits right into that zoning district. AR'NOLD URIST: So, that is no problem. What happens to the taxes, the tax rate in comparison to the rest of the. Town of Southold, Mattituck, or whatever? COUNCILMAN MOORE: I would check that with the Assessor, and see if you been on Industrial. ARNOLD URIST: What happens when I sell the property? When I sell the property will the new owners be able to do the same, have an office and an apartment? COUNCILMAN MOORE: It is part of RO zoning. ARNOLD URIST: Thank you. MATTIE SIMMONS: Supervisor, members of the Board, my name is Mattie Simmons, and right here it says that my property will change from Light Industrial to Hamlet Business district. I just would like the meaning of that. I am not familiar with that, and what it could do to my home. COUNCILMAN MOORE: Presently your property is zoned for Industrial type uses, even though you have your residence on it- The proposed list will take yours to Hamlet Business, which could allow certain commercial uses of it, as listed in the Hamlet Business Zone. It doesn't, as far as your residence goes, you can continue to maintain your residence on your piece of property- MATTIE SIMMONS: What kind of business, light business, because before we were down here to speak, Mr. Rosen, and Alice Funn, and I, our house, his house is in between our home and so far we haven[t ever heard just what is happening, and we live from day to day not knowing what will be in that house next door, or who will buy it. No one has heard anything at all. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: The house between yours and Alice's? MATTIE SIMMONS: Yes. pg ~t2 - PH COUNCILWOMAN HUSSIE: Everything has been stopped because of moratorium. Everything was in 1,000 feet of Route 48, so therefore your property does come in that category. Everything is on hold. MATTIE SIMMONS: It stopped because of that? COUNCILWOMAN HUSSIE: Right. MATTIE SIMMONS: In the meantime it can be sold? The only thing we are interested in learning about is that could be some commercial business being there, put there, and this what we have for a long time concerning that, so when the change comes what we will we be able to put that, between us? What kind of business? COUNCILWOMAN HUSSlE: The same kind of shops that you might find in downtown Mattituck, the center, a shop, a barber shop, a' grocery 'store. MATTIE SIMMONS: Well, this is what I am concerned about. Thank you. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, Mattie. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? I am going to take Mr. Rich. JAMES RICH: Thank you, Mrs. Cochran, members of the Town Board. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you. Please excuse my appearance. I just came from soccer practice for the kids, so I want to do that. Along those lines is something people involved with small businesses, local businesses have to do, Little League, soccer, things like that. I mean, Clinton said it takes a village, and I believe it does. I am somewhat nervous but I am one of thirty employees from George L. Penny, Inc., which does business under Penny Lumber. Many of us are here today to, you know, basically oppose this rezoning. As a former business owner myself, and I still do own a pretty big piece of commercial real estate. You know, we pay a tremendous amount of taxes, have paid it, and the flexibility of the property is of course part of the value, part of the appraised value as George said when he spoke, and it could have a detriment on the value on our property. I am very much aware, and I am sure you are how difficult it is to run a small business, in a town like Southold or Mattituck, and Penny Lumber has been in business for 109 years. It really can't represent any change ill the vista because you stopped to think this place has been here before my father was born, before my grandfather was born, and tentatively before anybody in the whole town, since Carl Vail died. How many thousands of dollars the Penny family has paid in property taxes over the years. I have no idea, but I can only imagine, because I know what I have paid in the last two years, located betwden a dual highway, L~8, and an LIR, I don't think that there is a better function for this piece of property than what 'is being used right now. The property is really suited only for what it is. I don't think it is really suited for residential property, and again, we have been there for 109 years. The last thing I want to say is the problem' of rezoning right now, I mean you can't force us out of business, but if you cripple our ability to react to the future, how are going to handle additions, if we God forbid had a fire, tried to build, and things like that. That is my point. Thank you very much. pg 43 - PH SUPERvIsOR COCHRAN: Thank you very much. ABIGAIL WICKHAM: Just following up on Mrs. Simmons. Alice Funn contacted me today, because she is working this evening, and unable to appear, but 'she asked me to submit this, and make that part of the record. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, Gall. ABIGAIL WICKHAM: Can I give you a couple of more? I also want to apologize. I misread the notice on Mr. Nine. I handed his papers up earlier, and I would ask that the letter and protest that filed be part of the record- I also would like to appear tonight on behalf of Mr- John Sider and Martin Sider. · They own the Light Industrial at Section 1L~1-3-29.1, which is immediately adjacent, to the Long Island Railroad Station in MattJtuck. Something ' that Jean mentioned .at ,the hearing yesterday, that has' been sticking with me, and while :1 didn't dJsagree with what she said it has been tugging at me,' and that.was the. comment which I think you just repeated, that we don~t want to see 'Route_ ?8, which a rural bypass, turn into something like Nesconsett Highway., which we all remember years ago was a rural bypass, and is now clogged with development and traffic. One thing you didn't say, or maybe I missed it, was that we also-I don't want to see Route /~8 become a~iotl~,er Route 24 Where on the south side you have houses springing up.in every single farm field, and I think that the Sidors aqd most of Us that live ,out here do value the vistas of Route 48, and what you are trying to do to protect them. The fact that you are buying development to try and.protect the vistas, but what th&s plan doesn't do, and what has been bothi~ring me, is I don't think it in any way really does protect the b.us~ness of Route. ~B at the extent that it could, because it doesn't address the ~wmer~ of the vast expanses of Route~'48 of the ~esidential property from s~ri'nklin~J their land with house. Now, clustering would move it back so~what,, but stJ~ll you could have incredible amounts of development, that wbu[d,: effect all of these long stretches of farmland that we now have- Instead. What the plan is doing is singling out the limited number of mostly business owners, that are Jn.{hese. pockel~s along Route 48 where, because of tl~e'i.stnall ar~eas they are in, ~here is really not much room to do anything. ~J,~e. ,So, instead of addressing, you kind of ~kipped over this whole ipo~t~l~.~al.,pr6b em of the residential areas, and singled out the busin'ess .ewn~-.s~..but ~ou haven't said they can't build. All you have done is said, .noW~:.!,t,~y can't build the .same thing that the could before, they are buildi!~g a, lesser type of intensive use. So, you are not really saying they ~a~,t" have structures up there. You are just giving them different buJldings'Ll~e¥ could build of lesser value- So, you are devaluating their prope~ie~, and not really addressing some of the other problems that could I~al~per~'. on Route L~8, and I do think you are purchasing development rights andl';aJl those things you are trying to accomplish are very good, but for insJ~a~.~., Mr. Sider isn't even on Route 48, and yet he ~s bemg told that h~s I~op~erty can no longer be used for many of the uses that it is now more s~ui~l~e' for. I have, and would llke to submit to the Board two things. On~ i~! a letter that I have written that more specifically addresses .the conce~l~s:' I will read it if you like. and also a 265 protest that Martin and Jol~n SJdor. who owns the property. The Sidors are here tonight. They asEed ~e'to speak on their behalf. Specifically they object to the proposed~ ~,ezcJhing. because the resulting uses their property would be put would drasti~a![ly be reduced. It pg ~r~- - PH wouldn't be suitable to the size and area of the property, are not in conformity to the stated goals of preserving vistas, and reducing traffic, and would substantially diminish the value of their property- They have used this property for many years as a potato grading operation They have a very large building on the property, which is located right on the southerly property boundary of the Long Island Railroad. The property is bounded on the west by Westphalia Road, across from which is Light Industrial zoning improved with several concrete block buildings located on the street line and a large brick warehouse. The property is bounded on the north' by Raymond F. Nine's sand and gravel operation- If the property were to be rezoned, as you propose, from Light Industrial to Limited Busin'ess, it would significantly devalue the property because the many uses now permitted would no longer be allowed- Those currently permitted uses are much better suited to the size and location of the~.property and the large building on it than those in the proposed zoning. ~TFhe..uses that are now pe~'mittadr which would be lost, .would include .mact~ne and equipment ~rl~shops, publ!s:hin,.g and printing, plants, light . industrials' usage,~ boat building and storage, cold storage contractor's · bu~i~esses or yards, resear~:h laboratories, conference facilities, and boat::'r~Pair. Th~ very limited ~retail~' use and other uses that would be permltt~d'~y Light' Business zone would not comjaensate for the devaluation of the, property. There are very limited r~eta~l· 'u~ses which are restr~Cted~ and the~¥ a~re not of th~ type wh~re substantial prqperty value is attainable. Tho~e ~ses are ant~clues, arts and craftS, garden shops and galleries. Other r~etail uses are not permitted. Moreover by permitting that limited type re~il'.'zo~i~ng you would be actually increasing the traffic considerations, which ~ould normafly be assoclal~ed with the Light Industrial type of uses. ,G,.iven the current screening and o~her site requirements as the Plannir~g ~°ar~j ..proposes::these uses if 'they' were deYeloped at this point in the Light 'lndust-r~al zone could be constructed tO ;shield them from other propertJes.~ ~nd nobody knows better than attorneys been battling with the Planning I~da~l-~fOr :75 yea;r.s on site plan. and they do their job. I am criticizing them;; i am npt saying they ~houldn't~ ~but they are very cautious about things Ij,l~e screening:, and assess, and ,ingress. so there are protections in the C;ode that they carry out that will ihsu~late neighbors from these types of uS~,S-Another obje'ction is that the ,location. of the, property, there is no relation~ships to the vista on Route 4&. or Route ~8 traffic considerations~ ~he location is not advantageous to Limited Business uses. It is ,t0ca~ed at the R~t~lroad station with. oO[y a few feet between the building and~the railroad t~acks. so those busin,esses would be subjected to the nois~ and the vibration associated with-the train traffic coming in. going ou% pa,,Ssing throug!h. A Limited Business type of use would find that probably'much less offensive. Also the only frontage, whi~:h is along Westphalia on the north side of the railroad tracks does not make for a viable retail location, because it does not provide, or a, ,professional office location, beca,U'se, ib does not provide visibility. I would also like to mention that the Iogist~al problem, we have here with the proposed zoning district changes ;cak~n§ affect before a decision on what uses would be allowed in those zodes' also because the owner is very d~fflcult predicament of not really know[n~g what we should be objecting to. For those reasons the Sidors do Obj.~c.t to the proposed rezoning of their property from Light Industrial to Light Business. Thank you. pg 45 - PH SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, Gail. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? Yes, ma'am? EILEEN SANTORA: My name is Eileen Santora. I work at Penny Lumber. Proud to work there. You are talking about the future, but you have to remember our past. Penny Lumber has been there a long time, and that is one of the reasons why (unintelligible) SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. I will take this gentleman. BOB MCCARTHY: My name is Bob McCarthy. I am the acting manager of Penning Flooring Center, and I would just like you to ask to, please, stop the change. I don't personally think it is needed. Thank you. MICHAEL HAND: Good evening. My name is Michael Hand- I am an employee of Penny Lumber, and I would just like to let you know that I am against the zone changes that you want .to do- I also would like to add that if you change the zones you make it harder for businesses to open. You will encourage other businesses in Riverhead to open, and take tax money out of this town and bring it to another town. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? (No response.) We will conclude then the 6:00 o'clock listings for the Mattituck area, and we can not start the next set until seven, so we will take a short break and we will be back at 7:00. Thank you. 7:00 .P.M- SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: This section of the hearings will be Mattituck 2D, Mattituck 2E, Mattituck 2F, Mattituck 2G. Bill will read the tax number of the parcel and the owners name. COUNCILMAN MOORE: The properties involved are 141-3-39 Robert Boassi, part of 140-2-32 John Divello and Others, 141-3-18 Jeffrey Gregor, 141-3-40 Andrew Fohrkolb, 140-1-10 Mark McDonald, 140-1-11 Steven Freethy and Deborah Gibson Freethy, 140-1-12 Henry Pierce and Jennie Lee, 140-1-~ Raymond Smilovich, 1[t0-1-9 Herbert Swanson, 140-1-6 Harold Reeve and Sons, Inc., 140-1-6 Harold Reeve and Sons I nc.,140-1-7 Rita Poneiglione, 140-1-8 Helen Reeve, 140-1-1 Stephanie Gullatt, 140-1-2 Leroy Heyliger and Wife, 140-1-3 Mr. and Mrs. William Stars. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Is there anyone who would like to address the Town Board in relation to any of these parcels? Sir? JOHN DIVELLO: John Divello, Mattituck. I just want to read a letter. I drafted this letter in response to the notification I received in the mail, one by regular mail and one certified. It involves an acre and one half that runs along the south side of the Long Island Railroad. The property is 100 feet wide by 600 feet long. We bought this Light Industrial property for the future business expansion some twenty-two years ago. In 1983 my parents called and told me they wanted to come back 'to New York because living in a retirement community in Florida was very depressing- pg ~6 - PH Just about every day they would hear of another neighbor that passed away, but they wanted to remain independent. As we were not using most of the property at that time we put a modular home on one sixth of the proper~y. My parents moved in within three day. My father passed away five years ago, and my mother lives there alone at eighty-eight years old, may she live another eighty-eight, but when the time comes I plan on removing the ' house. I understand that the Town Board wants to downgrade the zoning to Residential Office. My office is at the other end of the block along the railroad tracks, and believe me you do no conduct business when the train is going by with the horns 'blasting, as Bill knows. The property is located on Hill Street, Mattituck, and it is very appropriately as the property drops off drastically and the Long Island Railroad becomes a natural berm. You can not see Route L~8 ~nd vise versa. What the Town Board is proposing is th~ cor~plete: opposite of what real estate is supposed to'do over. time. Most real,~estate apprec~iates with time but~ 'here with a.st~oke of. a pen ~he town wi.Il deprec~,a~te-:.my ~p~-opert¥. I strongly oppose this change of zoning ~f my property. '..,'l~har~k you. SUPERVISOR COC:HRAN: Thank you very much. address the Town Board? Anyone else like. to DOUGLAS TONNEY: My name is Douglas Tonney. I am an attorney (unintelligible) I represent Jeffrey Gregor. He is the owner of a parcel of vacant land on the corner of Lipco Road and Route ~tS. It is tax lot 18, and block 3. It is 1.87 acres. It is Mattituck 2D change of zone. The recommended change of zone for my client's parcel is from Light Industrial to Residential 40. My client opposes this change would clearly reduce the value of 'his property, and it would eliminate any possibility of developing it for the purpose of which it was intended when he purchased it in 1998. By the way, after making sure that the zoning was Light Industrial. We certainly recognize your legislative prerogative to change the zoning of this property, but we question why the recommendation is subject to the rest of that change through three zoning classifications to Light Industrial to Hamlet Business zone, the Limited Business Zone to Residential Office Business zone. I may be wrong but review of the entire Land Use Corridor Study does not find any other parcel other than the three and four that are located ~.in Mattituck 2D. Most of the recommended .changes from the Light Industrial properties on other parcels along the corridor, which were either HB, LB, or Re: Nothing other than that in 2D ~s recommended to R40. The proposed change immediately to the east of us from Light Industrial t~o Re. Immediately opposite us is for Light Industrial to Business. The proposal for the corridor Route 48 is LB, so we don't understan'd the rationale for going all the way from LI to R40. We certainly recommend and support the concept of trying to eliminate the commercialization of Rqute 48. My client is a family owned plumbing well drilling bus,ness. Your new proposed legislation for the LB allows for contractors, that is what we ask you to consider for our piece. R~0 seems to be very impractical for this. We have three road frontages, which gives us three fropt yards, a rear yard, no sides. Even if we were to subdivide this parcel into four acre zoning we would be left with 50 foot setbacks all the way around, and eliminate fifty percent of our lot, on both lots. We would ask you to consider .going from LI to LB. Thank you. pg z~7 - PH SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Anyone else like to address the Town Board? CHIP PENNY: My name is Chip Penny. I work at Penny Lumber. I am 'kind of a new full tlme resident of the community, and I am not a business owner, but I plan to be one. I am kind of new to this plan also. I only read about it in the paper, and what I have heard in the last couple of days, kind of both sides of it. I understand the idea. I love Southold. That is why I going to live here the rest of my life. I look at this plan, how it is going to affect my future, and the business has been there for so long. It has been there 109 years. It has been in my family four generations. It is unbelievable, because you have people here that have these businesses, or have their futures. You know, you got the guy ~hat is here that bought the property..to expand on later in his [ife~. and you. know you go with. this Plan, ]~e':'ean't do that. That's his investment ~right there. You know, he tS paying -~ta~(es on that property, and'.we have .!a .business that '[s~:.pretty .m.ucl~..we' are riot really going :anywhe.~e..:right now~ ~but we might have to s0m~ime, because of some reason. SO, I am ioelcing at our picture right here of our Mattltuck location. We have our floor!ng~ center on RQUte 48. Now, C~d forbid somethinlg happened to that. We had a fire there, and you cha~ge our zone, that' is it. Our business is ..dead. We have a lot sitting on. Rb~te 48, and talki'ng about this marina property like a quarter mile awaY, our zoning for marina, the amount, of traffic generated at our flooring: .center is nothing. I mean compared to what a marlina generates. This Ts ~k~ind of scary, because this is all off the top of my head here. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: No problem. You are doing well. CHIP PENNY: The planner that went through this community to do this is not from this community. I mean just looking at it, it seems to me like he went through Port Jefferson, and went, oh, this looks like nice. Let's try to do it here. I mean, how can you change Lipco Road and Route It8 to a-..to a, oh, look residential property looks nice. Oh, let's put residential here. You know you are playing games with these people's future, with their money, and I mean you look at the other side of our property on the Main Road, or the Old Main Road, I am not sure of the name of the road, but we have where the railroad tracks meets the road we have a potato barn, that we use for storage, and that want to change that, too. I don~t know the exact designation of the property but you know, what if we have fire in that place? Our business is dead. We don't have anywhere to put our material, which is ail inside a barn. It is not like a lot of lumber sitting Out. It is inside of a self-contalned unit, and there has been no reason given for it, besides the fact that, oh, to preserve hamlet businesses. We are not inside the hamlet, and we are not competing with anybody inside the hamlet, so I don't~ see any reason for the change. I think a lot more has to be done with this, you know, something logical because this..look at the way you are affecting everybody in this community, and it is scary. It is really scary. I don't care how much has spent on this, it is not worth it. I'm sorry. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you, Chip. I have only one correction, Chip. You are not a new resident. You were born and raised here. Yes, you were, so you are an old resident. Thank you. Anyone else like to pg q-8 - PH address the Town Board? (No response.) If not, the next series of hearing will be 8:30, and that is the last one for the day. 8:30 P.M. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: We will be taking input on Peconic lA, and lB. Bill, will you please read the tax number and the owner of the properties in this section of Peconic proposed changes? COUNCILMAN MOORE: The properties involved are 7~-~-10 Chester Misloski and Others, part of 7~-/~-9 Andreas and Stacy Paliovras, part of 7~-~-5 John Krupski and Brothers, part of 7q-~-9 Andreas and Stacy Paliovras, part of 7~-~-5 John Krupski and Bros, Inc. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Is there anyone here that would like to address the Town Board on .any of .'these property changes? THOMAS MCCARTHY: I would like to present petitions on my property Go the Town Board for the record. SUPERVISOR COCHRAN: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to address the Town Board? (No response.) We will adjourned this meeting until tomorrow. Elizabeth A. Neville Southold Town Clerk