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Schick Realty International, Ltd.
350 Fifth Ave., Empire State Building (Suite 5620)
New York, NY 10118
Tel. (212) 947-3200 Telex: 427112 UI
RECEIVED
F£8 0 [
Janus,fy 31~ 19~°]
Orient ?eint, ~. Y.
Town CJe~ Southbkl
m,,~t ti~ of the ~Tofth Forl ~a~e been con~ervin~; w{ter as a way of life,
;1,:a~e ~n't r,.n ~e .ater", an~ "Skower with ~ frieng."
I ~ubt if %hi~ a [vice wr,t]l~ be w~ll received by }[~. Schick'a (Orient
Point Inn) nest%,. The situation i~ furih,~r c' ~r~,~,l'~cated :.:~ REalLY ,~nique
~[.h, r l~c',ti:~ns [n 5~uth,~] ~ Tr.-n, have sh.z~ed tbs:, ~i)-~v~ ~PO..lC:XL.
h:]]',le:~ 1,}akl~z~. lnt~ our ]mca1 water ne~rby whore ,)ur
[e-,el.)r,;::r~t i1 r:a' -)- tb r,)rt '~)rk.
i h~,. r"Z~t' Wi]] CU,l )rt th~ prcpo~-ed m~r)gc~?ium l",r a minimun of
~ niniscu]~ request--and feel theft :'e~i,~qsible anJ ~nf'ormed eom, UrLity
input (inc]u,i]n~' ~hc N )rth [2.~rk- Environmental Council)
qe-.7~mible lew'lmpme,~t c~ ne% come v, ith]u% car~['ul re~earch.
like, but OUr gtt~L~re ~'~ the futtre of our children 4epen~ on ~t. ~fe are
not ju.:t t,.]klnrf ,~bout the s,_)ec.i~l quality of life which we have enjoyeg
l]ce xJ olns,~n
'-','v~v ~ 60' ...............
NEW YORK STA'"IL ~'~,//'~OLD j ........
LEGISLATIVE COMMISSION
ON WATER IqESOURCE NEEDS
OF LONG ISLAND
January 25, 1983
Honorable William R.
Supervisor
Southold Town Hall
53095 Main Road
Southold, N.Y. 11971
Pell III
Dear Bill,
In the January 12th issue of the Environmental Notice Bulletin
there appeared a positive declaration regarding the application by
Nicholas Schick for a change in zone from A residential and agricultural
district to M1 general multipal residence district on properties at
Orient. I would greatly appreciate it if you would forward to our
Commission a copy of the DEIS once it has been completed. As I'm sure
you are aware, the Commission is extremely interested in any issues
that may have a significant impact on our groundwater resources, and
would like to go on record as being a party in interest to this particular
proposal. I would also like to offer to you and the Town Board any assis-
tance the Commission may be able to provide, with respect to technical
data regarding groundwater contamination. I appreciate your help and
look forward to seeing you in the near future.
GP:dmc
CC
./
Sincerely yours,
George Proios,
Co-Executive Director
~Own Cler~ Soul[old
1830 Greenway East
Orient, New York 11957
Mr. Lawrence I.Iurdock, Jr.
Councilman
Town of Southold
Sou~hold, [~ew York 11971
Dear k]r. [.lurdock:
Enclosed find a copy of a newspaper clipping from the
N.Y. Times, concerning an area which seems uo have
similarities to the north fork, and especially, Orient.
We do not want this to happen to Orient! Please keep
thzs in mind when you consider the zoning laws of Orient.
As you Know, many Orienters are opposed to a zoning
change for Orient Point. We shall remember your position
in this matter when it is time for your re-election to
the Town [3card.
strongly favor a moratori/~m on development until the
~own Plaster Plan is updated.
Thank you for your consideration of this matter.
Yours truly,
WILLIAM WICKHAM
F'RIC .I.
ABIGAIL A. W|CKHAM
F'RANKLYN A. FARRIS
LAW OF,FICES
WICKHAM, WICKHAM & BRE$SLER, p.c.
MAIN ROAD, P. O. BOX 1424
MATTITUCK lONG ISLAND
NEW YORK li952
516-298-8353
BE.r:., ,:31982
December 29, 1982
~own Clerl~ ~outfiord
Mrs. Judith T. Terry
Southold Town Clerk
Town Hall
Southold, NY 11971
Re: Nicholas Schick
Orient Point property
Dear Judy:
Mr. Schick is on his'honeymoon and will not be avail-
able until' miduJanuary. Upon his return, I will immediately
discuss the preparation of the draft environmental impact
statement and forward it to you as soon as possible.
Very truly yours,
Abigail' A. Wickham
AAW: epu
REALTORe
DEC 2 1982
Town C:ler~ ~oufl~oB
Wetmore Real Estate
828 FRONT STREET, BOX 627
GREENPORT, NEW YORK 11944
(516) 477-0798
December 27, 1982
Re: Orient Point
So~thold Town Board
Main Road
$outhold, New York 11971
Mr. Supervisor & Members of the Board,
It has come to my attention that the Board is reviewing the
rezoning of the 48+ acres at Orient Point, to Multiple Dwe[ling.
I wish to encourage the Board to do so with urgency.
I feel the proposed plan is the best the town will ever get
for the area. We have here a chance to go foward w~'th multi-
dwelling on the last large shorefront parcel in Orient. The rest
of the acreage developed will be in single family lots. Miss
this chance now and there won't be another-for in that area there
will always be ebjections and complaints to whatever rezoning the
Board considers. Once granted and construction proceeds a lot of
negative attitudes will become positive.
~Sincerely'
George W. ?,/etmore
WILLIAM WICKHAM
EPIC J. BRE$$IER
ABIGAI L A,WICKHAM
FRAN~LYN A. FAR,IS
LAW OFFICE~
WICI~HAM, WICKHAM & BRESSLER, ~.¢.
MAIN ROAD~ P-O. BOX 1424
MATTITUCK LONG i~IAND
NEW YORK lI952
RECEIVE~
Town Clerk $outfiold
December 17, 1982
Mrs. Judith Terry
Southold Town Clerk
Town Hall
Southold, NY 11971
Re: Application for Change of Zone
NiCholas'SchiCk.- Orient Pt. property
Dear Judy:
Enclosed is Henderson and Bodwell's supplemental re-
port which should be filed with their~ report as part of
the record. The supplemental report was prepared to meet
the requirements of the Board of Health. Discussions will
now be held on the most suitable entitY to operate the
water system.
Very truly yours,
Abigail A. Wickham
AAW: epu
Encl.
CC:
Southold Town Planning Board
(w/encl.)
~C~EIVE~
HENDERSON AND BODWELL
Town Cle~ Soufi'ml~
Date: October 27, 1982
Page: 1 of 4
FM: Angus D. Henderson
TO: Memo of Record
RE: Orient Point Project - N.Y.S. Health Dept. Comments
Surface of Site, Etc.
The contours do not indicate a considerable portion
of the rainfall will flow directly to the ocean.
Maximum slope of the general surface is about 1% and
except for one small area where this one percent
slope occurs, all the remaining table-land of the
site has slopes of 1/2% or less.
The majority of the site is not below elevation
10 M.S.L., of the 44 acres, about 42 acres are
situated on a table-land above elevation 10, with
sharp escarpments between the higher areas and the
adjacent beaches.
c. Thirty acres allocated as a catchment area for
recharge of the groundwater is conservative.
d. No offsite water is available, as proved by pumping
test. There will be little flow underground from
outside the site.
e. A conservative estimate of recharge in the year
maximum drought is:-
of
Rainfall
Lost through evapo-transpiration
and runoff
Available as recharge
27 inches
18 inches
9 inches
9 inches of water on 30 acres =
7.3 M.G.Y.
Expected additional recharge in the
drought year from proposed recharging
structures (Roof drainage, roadway
drainage)
2.7 M.G.Y.
Special grading, percolating
ditches, etc.
? M.G.Y.
Total Available Recharge
in Drought Year
10 M.G.Y. +
HENDERSON AND BODWELL
Date: October 27, 1982
Page: 2 of 4
To: Memo of Record
Re: Orient Point Project - N.Y.S. Health Dept. Comments
Estimated consumptive use after full
development and on a year-round
occupancy basis:
120 dwelling units at 100 GPD each
50 hotel rooms at 50+ GPD each
4.3M.G.Y.
0.9M.G.Y.
Maximum Consumptive Use
5.2 M.G.Y.
f. Similarly, in a normal rainfall year:-
Rainfall
Lost through evapo-transpiration
and runoff
Available as recharge
45"
30.1"
14.9"
14.9" on 30 acres
12 M.G.Y.
Expected additional recharge in
normal year from proposed recharging
structures (45/27 of 2.7)
4.5 M.G.Y.
Special grading, percolation
ditches, etc.
Total Available Recharge
in Normal Year
16.5 M.G.Y.+
Assuming full development and
year-round occupancy,
consumptive use would not change.
Fresh Water - Salt Water Balance
The pumping test demonstrated that it was possible
to pump a well (which is a point source) for
72 hours at a 60 GPM rate without increasing the
salt content of the water pumped above 750 mg/1.
be
Such a heavy rate of continuous pumping is expected
only on the two 3-day summer holiday weekends, and
chloride content would drop down again as pumping
rates diminished.
HENDERSON AND BODWELL
Date: October 27, 1982
Page: 3 of 4
To: Memo of Record
Re: Orient Point Project - N.Y.S. Health Dept. Comments
The above two statements apply to pumping from a
point source (a well) and a much less critical
condition will be created when collecting
groundwater through an infiltration gallery.
The pumped well lowered the groundwater level at its
site about 1.7 feet, about 0.86 feet at points
10 feet distant, 0.45 feet at points 30 feet
distant, 0.25 feet at points 50 feet distant, and
did not lower the water table at all at any point
90 feet or more from the pumped well. The system
became hydraulically stable at all measuring points
almost immediately after start of pumping.
(The pumping of some 259,000 gallons drew not more
than 35,000 gallons from storage within the cone of
influence. The remaining water pumped came from the
surrounding area. Water level recovery was
essentially complete in 30 minutes indicating a
laterally highly permeable formation.)
The proposed gallery would have a radius at about
150 feet and would be expected to lower the water
table about it less than 1 1/2 inches. Under this
condition, disturbance of the fresh water-salt water
balance would be minimized, and except for meeting
summer peaks, it might be that during normal
rainfall years, treatment by reverse osmosis might
not be necessary.
The proposed reverse osmosis units would be capable
of removing 90% of the chloride content, and, 90% or
more of organic compounds with molecular weights
greater than 400 will also be rejected. The
proposed units will be able to produce water meeting
the chloride standard of 250 mg/1 with a single pass
and a feed containing up to 2500 mg/1.
The 36,000 gpd size of the units is adequate when the
size of the finished water storage tank is considered. With
two units operating, production would be 72,000 gpd and the
maximum day demand is estimated at not more than 94,000 gpd.
The maximum days in this type of development will occur on
summer weekends, and the weekday demand will be much less.
The 100,000 gallon storage tank provides sufficient storage
to fully compensate for any inadequacy in treatment capacity
during the expected summer demand period.
HENDERSON AND BODWELL
Date: October 27, 1982
Page: 4 of 4
To: Memo of Record
Re: Orient Point Project - N.Y.S Health Dept. Comments
If it is necessary, in order to secure approvals, a
third Reverse Osmosis unit could be installed at an
additional construction cost of about $40,000.
3. Infiltration Gallery
The reason for using a large area for the gallery is
to affect the hydraulic balance as little as
possible; a typical well installation alternatively
creates much greater upwelling of salt water because
of its greater lowering of the groundwater table at
the point of abstraction.
The water is not being drawn from "close to the
surface". With a gallery positioned 2-1/2 feet
below mean sea level, its top is more than 17 feet
below the ground, providing a reasonable depth of
natural filtration.
An area of about 3.8 acres (230'+ radius) is being
provided for sanitary protection of the proposed
source of supply.
The treatment system sequence of Reverse Osmosis,
groundwater activated carbon filtration and
disinfection combined with the gallery type of
construction and the restriction of a 3.8 acre site
to no other use, will provide fully adequate
protection for the water delivered to consumers
through the distribution system. No clay blanket
over the gallery is necessary.
4. Carbon Filters
The carbon filters would be designed for a flow rate of
5 gpm per sq. foot and are empty bed detention time of
10 minutes.
5. Fresh (less than 250 mg/1) water stored in the ground
under the 44 acre site is estimated to be more than
30 million gallons. This is sufficient to provide for
balancing the effects of variation in the rainfall cycle with
the expected maximum consumptive use withdrawals of about
5 million gallons per year.
RECONVENED
PUBLIC HEARING
SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD
DECEMBER 7, 1982
8:00 P.M.
IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATION OF NICHOLAS SCHICK FOR A CHANGE OF
ZONE FROM "A" RESIDENTIAL AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRICT TO "M-I" GENERAL
MULTIPLE RESIDENCE DISTRICT ON CERTAIN PROPERTY AT ORIENT, NEW YORK.
Present:
Supervisor William R. Pell, III
Councilman John J. Nickles
Councilman Lawrence Murdock, Jr.
Councilman Francis J. Murphy
Councilman Joseph L. Townsend, Jr.
Justice Raymond W. Edwards
Town Clerk Judith T. Terry
Town Attorney Robert W. Tasker
SUPERVISOR PELL: We will open the hearing that was held on November
9th at 8:00 P.M. It was recessed until 8:00 P.M. today. The public
notice was read at that time so we will not have it read again.
ABIGAIL WICKHAM, Attorney fo]' Nicholas Schick: Our primary purpose
of our presentation tonight is to discuss the question of the water
system from Mr. Bodwell. Before we do tha~, there's some concern
expressed by the people last time about what the buildings are going
to look like and I realize it's a little premature at a rezoning hearing
to talk about final site plan type elements but our architects have
developed some drawings that perhaps you people would like to look at.
We can put them up now and they can look at them later. This is just
an attempt to capture some of the architecture.
GEORGE BUCHANAN, Buchanan-Weintraub Architects: We did show copies of
the--and you have before you copies of the site plan in question, and
we have, as well, and they are also in a small[ booklet that's a compilation
of the drawings that you have already and these. The site plan which
you've ali seen has the small housing groups along Long Island Sound,
with the focus of the pFoject being the inn/conference center on Gardiners
Bay. The second drawing is a partial site plan of one of these housing
groups and the drawing on top are of two renderings; one which is taken
a view from the Sound back towards two of the beach houses--these are
houses that have two units in them each, and those are here, and this
is the beach club; and another view which is across the meadow towards
one of the houses known on the site plan as the big house, and looking
beyond that at one of these groups and the beach club behind that, and
those drawings are also in a smaller form in this document. If there
are any questions later on, or if people would like to come up and look
at them they will be right here.
Page 2 - Reconvened ~L_olic Hearing - Nicholas Sch,ck Change of Zone Petition
biS. WICKHAM: I have Russell Bodwell here of Henderson and Bodwell
who are the engineers who have designed the water and sewer system
and I'd like to introduce him and ask him to describe to you the type
of :facilities being proposed.
RUSSELL BODWELL, Henderson and Bodwei1, Consulting Engineers: Good
evening. I'd like to introduce the subject tonight by saying that I
want to talk about both the water supply and the disposal system. The
reason, I think, that I have to talk about both of them, they kind of
go hand in hand. To solve one problem you have to solve the other
problem, particularly when we're look at here, as all of you are aware,
a critical water supply situation in Orient Point. Now, as some of
you know, we ran some extensive pumping tests to determine both the
ground water table, the effect of draw-down and pumping at a rate of
60 gallons per minute over a three day period, we would plot and
determine the ground water effects by having observation wells at
10, 30, 50 and 100 feet from where we ran pumping tests. From those
pumping tests we've also been able to determine the water quality.
We subsequently went back and done some resampling and retesting of
the water quality, but the thing that I want to highlight tonight is
that we're looking at a site where we feel that with the projected use
on this site, there will be roughly 5 million gallons of water used a
year and the potential for recharge which is designed into the system,
which consists of the natural recharge on approximately 30 acres of
the 44 acre site, plus the recharge we'll pick up from roof drains and
our storm drainage system around the paved areas and parking areas gave
us over 10} million gallons a day--I mean a year--in a drought year.
In the wet season, or wet year, we'd be up around 12 to 15 million
gallons. So that's one of the elements you look at, do we have ~
water supply system that is going to give us more than ample water
without, as some of you may be aware, infringing on the perimeter of
the site. Now, let's talk about the system of how we get recharge
into the ground and how we will be handling the sanitary waste. I
might add that the sanitary waste will be basically large septic tanks
going through an infiltration gallery, plus a nitrification/denitrifica-
tion tank plus then being dissipated in galleries--and so that you
understand this--this is the entrance road coming into the site, this
is the drinking water infiltration gallery here, and these are units
as were located on the site plan---units in here--this is one of the
most critical areas in determining spacing for our infiltration gallery,
and what we're showing here is a storm drainage system, a septic system,
and the size of where the infiltration gallery will be built for the
drinking water. Now, the infiltration gallery coming on--the roof
drains are these red circles located around the buildings. The infil-
tration gallery around the parking lots will be in the middle of this
depressed median that we ht~ve in the middle oil the parking area--the
depressed meaning the lots will be able to be flooded in case we have
an extreme six inch rain fall. The sanitary, meanwhile, is being
collected in sanitary sewers going into a septic tank, then goes into
an infiltration gallery, goes through the nitrification/denitrification
tanks and then is discharged 120 feet from the top of the berm next to
the Long Island Sound in this particular case. Now, as far as the water
supply system. The water supply system is basically relatively sump.
What we're building is an infiltration gallery--each one of these lines,
and there are eight of them--60 feet with a diameter--a diameter all the
way around between the center of this of over 230 feet. Now, the
Page 3 - Reconvened ~ ~lic Hearin~ - Nicholas Sc~ ck Change of Zone Petition
infiltration galleries will be placed about 2.3 feet below the top of
the present wafer service and it will be designed in such a manner
that we'll have a pit in one location where the pit will pick up
water and on a peak day we do not anticipate lowering the ground water
table more than two inches. This compares with what you have with a
single source well. Put in a well on this site and pump 60 gallons
a minute you drop it about 1.7 feet and then you start bringing up
salt water from below. We think by keeping this in an infiltration
gallery and having this other system we will then minimize the draw
down. The second area that we're now talking about is how do we treat
the water we get out of this infiltration gallery. The state has raised
a concern about whether during the summer months and our peak pumping
period whether we might be getting some additional salt coming into
the supply and we found that during the pumping period,on a three day
period, the highest cblorides were around 750. They say there's a
possibility we could run as high as 2500 and therefore what we have
recommended is an R-O system, which is really a reverse osmosis system,
which permits you to flush the water supply through a filtration system
that is designed by DuPont and other companies and has now had a trem-
endous experience around the world. There's probably over 200 million
gallons of fresh potable drinking water being produced a day in the
world with this type of a system. I've had a lot of experience--operated
them in Florida. They have not been extensively used in the northeast;
but we're beginning to see them be recognized as having not only the
advantage for removing the chloride, but we think that many of the
chemical wastes and agricultural fertilizers will also be removed with
this R-O system. We have a back up to do that and the state has also
asked us to provide further protection since we're working with a very
shallow fresh water aquifer that we put in a carbon column filter to
treat the wa~er that we produce from the R-O system. One of the questions
that has been raised is what is the waste margin that comes out of an
R-O system. We're talking about here a water system that we cannot see
it exceeding 90 thousand gallons a day at your peak demand, and an R-O
system and the maximum waste would be 15~ or something like nine or ten
thousand gallons that would be wasted from your R-O backwash filter
system. Wha~ else does this system have? The water system will have
a 100 thousand gallon ground storage tank. The ground storage tank
will be submerged so that it will be only sticking above the ground
between two to three feet. It will be landscaped, it will not be a
detriment to the vistas within the project. The 100 thousand gallons
gives you both fire flow, fire protection to the project, which we feel
is very important if you're going to restore the inn, and it also gives
you the extra cushion that you need if you should happen to have a
couple of days of excessive demand. As far as the sanitary system--
the sanitary system is basically a modification of what your health
department in the county has been doing research on for about the last
six or eight years. I would say from a technical water ~uality view-
point and from the water quality produced for drinking you do not need
the nitrification system in this particular instance because the R-O
system will remove the nitrates if you ever happen to have an increase
in nitrates because of the septic system. The health department regu-
lations require you to put ii1 a nitrification removal system. Some
people have inquired why are we not going into a treatment system for
the waste. I think many people in Long Island today and certainly all
over the country recognize small systems, if they can be designed to
handle--be handled with septic tank treatment and some modification
or improvement to that system you have then not only a much lower cos~
Page 4 - Reconvened L..olic Hearing - Nicholas Sch.ek Change of Zone Petition
operating system but a much better chance of a tool-proot system. We
think we've provided a tool-proof system. You're going to see more of
these type systems not only on Long Island but in many other areas of
the country and its a--what we say in technical reading--it's the best
available technology that we know of in 1982, and that's what we're
tryillg to present to you tonlght. Both systems are the best available
technology for water supply and sanit~ry system there is today. The
letter of concept approval which we received on November 12th, 1982
from the department of health, a copy of which went to the Suffolk
County Health Department, highlighted the need for an R-O unit which
I talked about, the need for a granular activated carbon filters for
removal of any organic contaminates tbat may be present in the water.
Accordingly we are issuing our endorsement of the technical aspects
of the project. They've raised the question again of connecting into
the Village of Greenport system and we have found that to be economically
unfeasible and the other condition that they want, they want the ultimate
operation of ~he system to be through a contractual agreement with a
community water supply, preferably Greenport. That basically covers
what we wanted to present tonight, as it covers both the water supply---
I want to add a couple of other things. One of the key features of the
drainage system as we've designed the storm water system on all the
roadways so the water runs off fha pavement and we have basically drainage
trenches on both sides et your paved roadway to pick up the storm water.
This is not unique to our organization, it's something that we're seeing
under Cafra rules in New Jersey and Florida looking at how do we max-
imize recharge and our goal on this project is not only to get storm
water back in~o the site in excess of the water s~pply units, we think
that once our systems are working we will ultimately raise the storm
water--I mean the fresh water elevation within the projects limits and
ultimately, whether it's two to five years down the road, prove that
we have such consistent good operating conditions for the water supply,
that the R-O system and carbon filter will not be operated except during
peak periods.
MS. WICKHAM: If you have questions I'm sure Mr. Bodwell will answer
them.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Any Councilmen have anything they would like to ask?
Mr. Murdock.
COUNCILMAN MURDOCK: How many gallons a day do you propose to treat in
the affluent plant?
MR. BODWELL: In the various septic tank systems? There will be a total
capacity of roughly 90 thousand gallons a day.
COUNCILMAN TOWNSEND: You mentioned that you had 100 thousand gallon
storage tank for fire protection. Now, I'm not an expert in this at
all but I know that in fires of significant buildings in Greenport
that I was involw~d in 100 thousand gallons wouldn't have gone very
far towards putting those fires out. Many times--on several occasions
the entire tank the Village has--water tower--has been drained. When
that happens I assume you can't pump too quickly on a system such as
this. I've just a couple of questions I'd like to address, maybe you
can answer them. Are you planning to irrigate, landscape or irrigate
anything. Are there many of these systems in this latitude?
Page 5 - Reconvened ~ _olic Hearing - Nicholas ScL.~ck Change of Zone Petition
MR. BODWELL: On the R-O system?
COUNCIl. MAN TOWNSEND: Yes. I mean this far north?
MR. BODWELL: I will have to get you some data on that. I do know
there are R-O systems in this temperature condition. As to where
they located I can supply that information, I don't have it tonight.
As far as the fire protection, what we are talking about is something
like two 500 gallon per minute sprays running for a period of roughly
[wo hours. Because you are replenishing during that two hour period
while you're operating, so if there is a fire of over two hours I will
agree that you are probably going to have a disas[er, but we find that
generally a 1000 gallon per minute stream for two hours will give you
a fair rating on the system. Did you have another question?
COUNCILMAN TOWNSEND: Are you planning to irrigate or maintain the
grounds in some .....
MR. BODWELL: We hope to minimize the irrigation system in the sense
that a lot of [he landscaping and surface treatment will be such that
you will not do a heavy amount of irrigation. That reduces the water
supply on the project. We have provided for what we think will be a
minimum irrigation system.----(Mr. Bodwell was asked to repeat his
answer by members of the audience.) .... In answer to the irrigation
question, the project will have some irrigation bu[ the design of the
landscaping which is at present only conceptual and much of the land-
scaping with be such that there will not be heavy irrigation required.
That's both in line with the current thinking of many of the water
conservation programs that we're involvee with and other projects and
we don't think that this project will have a heavy irrigation demand.
MS. WICKHAM: I might add that the individual unzts will be metered in
terms of wa[er. That will be metered in terms of usage which, from
studies I've seen, does cut down on your usage.--(Ms. Wickham was asked
to repeat her statement by members of [he audience.)---I'm sorry. The
individual units will also have water meters which will be with the
intention of cutting down unlimited water supply you would have in
private wells or unlimited water supply in terms of economics. You
will be paying for your usage.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Thank you. Councilman Nickles.
COUNCILMAN NICKLES: Mr. Bodwell, you had indicated that the water
system was going to be turned over to a public entity. Wha[ entity
is that?
MR. BODWELL: We are seriously going to ~egotiate with both the Village
of Greenpor[ and possibly a non-profit operation.
COUNCILMAN NICKLES: And on that same question, does that include the
operation of your waste treatment plan[?
MR. BODWELL: There's no waste treatment plant. It's a common septic
tank with a discharge system running through a series of additional
features that strip nitrogen and as far as maintenance of that septic
system, that would be a home owner's association responsibility and
Page 6 - Reconvened t,.olic Hearing - Nicholas Schick Change of Zone Petition
probably have less requirements for maintenance than 90~ of your sepfic
systems on Long Island today.
COUNCILMAN NICKLES: And a follow-up on that. When you indicated on
your diagram there that the waste is going to be discharged 100 and
some odd feet, what is it being discharged into?
MR. BODWELL: It's into infiltration galleries.
COUNCIL~AN NICKLES: That brown (indicating to area on sketch) ....
MR. BODWELL: No. The brown are buildings. The buildings we have
a gravity sewer line running to a septic tank here where is roughly
a 9000 gallon septic tank--this particular.group of buildings--running
from there into two uniquely designed systems where we have effluent
from the septic tank coming into the botfom of a tank where we have
both sulphur and lime stone to permit the removal of the nitrogen and
then---let me follow that up---it goes from septic tank to the leaching
field. The leaching field has an impermeable barrier at the bottom of
ii and then from the bottom of the leaching field it goes into the
nitrogen removal system and then into these individual infiltration
galleries.
(Outburst of questions from members of the audience.)
SUPERVISOR PELL: Wait a minute. The Town Board will ask the questions
now and later on we will turn it over to you people one at a time and
to be recognized by the chair. Continue, Mr. Nickles.
COUNCILMAN NICKLES: That's all.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Mr. Murphy? (Nothing, Bill.) Judge Edwards? (No
questions.) Any other Councilmen have anything you want to ask at
this time? (No response.) If not, Gall, are you ready for the floor?
liS. WICKHAM: Yes.
SUPERVISOR PELL: We will turn it over to the floor. The way I am going
to do this is I'm going to start on the east and work west. So, people
on the east side who would like to speak raise your hand first. Ruth
Oliva in the back. Please use the mike and state your name. Rule One.
MRS. RUTH OLIVA, President, North Fork Environmental Council: While I
feel we must leave the specifics of the operation to the experts, once
again Southold Town is asked to be the guinea pig in an experimental
type of operation. The unofficial report, as you all know, from the
County is going to show that Orient is in a fragile balance as far as
its water supply is concerned. We cannot stand any more population
growth. One other thing. We have a special ambience in Southold Town,
a uniqueness, this we must preserve, otherwise it will blow away in a
puff of smoke. Thank you.
MRS. JEAN TIEDKE, Southold: I do not understand what you mean by an
infiltration gallery. Is this in the aquifer or does it go down below
the aquifer? What becomes of this water?
Page 7 - Reconvened t~.olic Hearing - Nicholas Sc~_.ck Change of Zone Petition
MR. BODWELL: The storm water in the infiltration gallery travels
longitudinally above the ground water towards the infiltration gallery
we have for our water supply. What we're doing is raising the present
water levels by putting fresh water back in and maximizing the recharge.
The infiltration gallery for the storm water discharge is in the--above
the w:~ter table like every other septic tank.
MRS. TIEDKE: The infiltration gallery is out in the Bay, is that
right?
I{R. BODWELL: On the Bay side of the unit.
MRS. TIEDKE: Where is the property line fhere--I don't understand.
MR. BODWELL:
point here.
The property line indicating on sketch) runs to this
MRS. TIEDKE: Well, Orient Bay ~s on one side, Orient whatever you
it, and the Long Island Sound is on the other. So where are those
bodies of water?
call
two
~R. BODWELL: This is the Long Island Sound. I tried to explain here
that we're talking about this particular group of buildings--as we come
into the project the fresh water supply is located in here and with the
sanitary system for this particular group of buildings---this is schem-
atically one group of buildings---would be repeated of your various
buildings around the site.
MRS. TIEDKE: I
understand what
will sink down
still--perhaps I'm not very bright,
you mean by having an infiltration
into the ground water aquifer?
but I just do not
gallery, the water
MR. BODWELL: You have on this part rather porous sand---
MRS. TIEDKE: Well, that's Long Island for you.
MR. BODWELL: Well, you have also a very tight surface
caused by the agricultural treatment, so today much of
falls on this site is now running off, because ....
condition
the water that
MRS. TIEDKE: Do you have proof of that:?
MR. BODWELL: I would say the proof comes from experience and the
geology and knowing what the surface conditions are.
~IRS. TIEDKE: Are you from Long Island?
MR. BODWELL: I've been out to Orient Point quite a few times and I
think I can ..... farming because the surface is tight. You can go out
there after a storm rain the water is not running down into the ground
on this particular site.
MRS. TIEDKE: Only half of the 44 inches or so that falls from the sky
actually infiltrates ~he ground on Long Island anyhow. I think you need
some more---to give us some more detail about how it actually works.
Page 8 - Reconvened tL_~lic Hearing - Nicholas Sc..~ck Change of Zone Petition
MR. BODWELL: We're only project 18 inches will go back in the ground,
less than half.
MRS. TIEDKE: That's right, it is.
MR. BODWELL: That's what we're projecting on this site.
MR. JOtIN WICKHAM, Cutchogue: I am on the Long Island Planning
Commission, Long Island Regional Planning Commission. I'm also Vice-
Chairman of the Sound Water Conservation District of the County of
Suffolk. I have lived and worked with salt water and salt water for
fifty active years. There are some things that are very wrong with
the presentation you have made and I'll have to tell the Town Board
this. First, your most recent statement that you would hope to raise
the level of the ground water is--displays complete unfamiliarity with
what we have here. Mrs. Tiedke had a point. We know very well that
the angle of repose, the hydraulic radiant, what ever you want to call
it, is seven inches per mile under Long Island. This means, since the
property in question is not much more than 100 yards wide, that you
might get as much as two inches. You're talking about two feet. No
way. Another thing ....
MR. BODWELL: Can I answer that?
~{R. WICKHAM: Of course.
MR. BODWELL: I did not intend to talk about two feet. I talked about
an infiltration gallery at this location (indicating on the sketch) where
dropping of the water t~ble during peak summer weekend would only be two
inches. The two foot that I referred to was the two foot we had when we
put in one well and pumped at 60 gallons a minute.
MR. WICKHAM: No, I beg yo~r pardon, you made the statement that you
would hope to raise the water table and this is impossible.
MR. BODWELL: I'm not talking about any significant raise.
it two inches that would be all we're looking for, because
bring it back in balance.
If we raise
then we'd
MR. WICKIIAM: The next thing, let me point out that this reverse osmosis
has been used and used successfully in areas where there is an abundance
of brackish water such as the sounds off the East Cost of North Carolina,
where there's any quantity of brackish water. To seriously consider
using it where there's a lot of salt water, and there is a lot of salt
water just a few feet down in Orient, is practically out of the question.
Now, l'l] ask you a direct question. Have you measured the depth of the
interface between fresh and salt water?
MH. BODWELL: We have.
MR. WICKRA~: And how deep is it?
MR. BODWELL: I'd just like to check (Mr. Bodwell referred to h~s
Water Supply Report for the Orieng Point Project.) I don't know as
I plotted .... If you are talking about salt water at 20 thousand chlorides,
which is the maximum I think we went down 60 feet to recover that--we did
Page 9 - Reconvened t,_Jlic ttearing- Nicholas Sc,.~ck Change of Zone Petition
plot, and I think I have that data someplace in my files, I don't have
it in this particular report, that the chlorides at the end of the three
day pumping test went as high as 750 parts per million, which indicated
we were bringing up brackish water to the---
MR. WICKHAM: Of course, yes.
MR. BODWELL: As far as the fresh water--salt water, there's no clear
interface. There's an interface of where you start to increase brack-
ishness and I think we went almost 60 feet before we got full salt water.
MR. WICKHAM: In o~her words, there was 40 feet of interface which is
reasonable, but you have some problems immediately because that 40 feet
is all there is and as soon as you start using that you get salt to
replace it, it comes right up. My point is that we---if you're going
to use more than the rainfall, you're not going to solve your problem
by using reverse osmosis. You could solve it by using a desalinization
plant, but then what are you going to do with the salt? I want to move
on. I don't intend to get into an argument.
MR. BODWELL: I don't want to either, I just want to clarify one thing.
Reverse osmosis is accomplishing the same thing as a desalinization
plant.
MR. WICKHAM: Yes, but what happens is you have to do something with
the salt, either you put it overboard or you cart it away. In a
desalinization plant--we discussed this very carefully here in the Town
of Southold some years ago, and the whole project was rejected because
of what to do with the salt, and it was going to take--in that case it
was going to take carloads every day. What are you going to do with
the salt? Are the baymen or the shellfish people going to let you pu~
it in the Bay? No way. Let's go on to the next one.
MR. BODWELL: Can I go back, I now have the data 5hat you raised the
question to. I ~ndicated roughly 60 feet and my chart indicates that
we hit 18 thousand parts per million chlorides at minus 40 since the
ground surface is roughly 12, that 52 feet below the surface. At
minus 20--20 feet below the sea level we were 11 thousand, and at
15 feet below sea level we were at 475. The indication is that the
fresh water is from a plus .2 to somewheres between minus 10 or 12 feet.
~{R. WICKHAM: This is exactly what our engineer said in 1965 and we
would accept that, but the problem is the water in the interface--that's
where your problem is. One more thing which doesn't quite make sense.
The County of Suffolk has said one acre zoning based on one dwelling
per acre and this has been the basis of our zoning in the Town of
Southold. We have gone under our "~" District to between six and
seven or sometimes slightly more than seven dwelling unxts for part-
time residents, motels and so forth, which were only used part of the
year. It must be anticipated that some of these units will be used
more than three months a year, number one. Number two, this :far
exceeds the amount of dwellings we are currently allowing in our "A"
zone and wheat's in question, actually in jeopardy, ali of the zoning
of the Town of Southold. If this is allowed, this opens the gate to
other actions, legal actions, we're saying if you can support this
density we're entitled to it. As one final thing I would have to say,
Page 10 - Reconvened ~blic Hearing - Nicholas S~ick Change of Zone Petition
and this is again a matter of policy, the attorney for the Town in
years past has made it clear fo the Planning Board and to the people
that there were some cases where the courts said to communities, you
approved fhis project, now make services available, and in this case
it would make water available. If anything goes wrong~ and you've got
three possibilities you're working with, firsf you're taking care of
all the storm water it's picking up from the roofs, this is good, we
approve of this. First you've got a method of handling some of the
water in the interface, third you have a reservoir. If anything
happens to the first ~wo of those you're in trouble. You go to court,
you take the Town of Southold to court, the courts say to the Town,
you approved it, make water available. I as a taxpayer say to the
Town Board just bear this in mind. Thank you very much.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else on the east side of the room? Mr.
Franklin Bear.
MR. FRANKLIN BEAR, Southold: John Wickham who just spoke with you,
who was the Chairman of the Planning Board here from the time it was
established back in the '50's until a few years ago, has a great deal
of experience and background in this area and I think that we should
have on the record the letter which he wrote, and which appeared in
both of our local papers, last week. I'm not going to read ali of it
because Mr. Wickham has said a great deal of it already, but I do want
fo point out that he starts out by saying, "It comes as a real surprise
to me that any of the officials of the Town of Southold is seriously
considering the development of the Orient Point property for anything
else than the renewal or replacement of the hotel." And then he goes
into the fact that, "Consider that in the past the Planning Board turned
down applications requesting less than one house per acre, stating that
there wasn't ground water enough for that density under this property."
I think in addition to that I would like to say I was impressed by one
thing that was said by the gentleman here this evening, by the number
of times that he used the word "probably". This proves to me, and I
think to others, tha~ there are many unanswered questions and a lot
of things that have not been proved about the systems and the plans
which they have in mind for this project. I would like to say one
other thing. I can't believe that this Town Board--I can't understand
how any Town Board, any officials of this Town, at the time when we're
just two months into the process of updating our Town Plan, could do a
spot zoning such as the rezoning that is planned here. Thank you.
SUPERVISOtl PELL: Anybody else on the east side wish to speak?
MRS. PAT WYSOCKI, Orient: Four years ago we bought--me and my husband
bought a piece of property from his grandmother which happens down at
the Point, it's a brand new house going up, and it's on the private
road. We had to go in front of the Board of Appeals and get a variance
because there wasn't enough footage. Well, anyway, during the variance
board meeting they expresses that they might not permit us to build our
house there because there is a shortage of water, which happens that
there's a house further down the Point with no water, as far as drink-
ing water. Anyway they agreed with us that we could have the property
and build a house on the property. Well, we're nearly done with the
house and we had to have our water tested. We put a well in the front
yard and it's 100 square feet--over 100 square fee~ away from the next
Page 11 - Reconvened .ublic Hearing - Nicholas Sc~ick Change of Zone Petition
property as far as the sewage line. The Board of Health tested it;
we got high degrees of nitrate, high degrees of amonia and such other
tests. So in other words our tests failed. We went down further and
we pumped it--we pumped it four days completely. It lessened the nitrates
but not to the degree that the test would pass, so in other words we
didn't get water. We didn't get drinkable water and by their terms we
could not drink it and they even told us they wouldn't pass it. So in
other words we had to go out back and we had to put in another well.
Finally the Tests passed. The thing is is all I know--I don't know
much about water--all I know is if you don't put water into the ground
you're not going to get water. Down the Point we have very little
water. As far as the tests are concerned we got a sufficient amount
that tile Board of Health did finally pass our water. Now, you're going
to put condominiums there and after they are built, in ten years we're
not going to have water. Like I said, the house down the Point, which
I can't speak for it, they have no water at all. They have no drinking
water. I know they bring water in to the place; they bring it in by
bottles. As far as the washing and stuff, they got salt water. Now,
I don't want my house and I don't want my property like that and I
don't plan on buying water the rest of my life either. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else on the east section over here before we
move?
MRS. PHILLIPS: I would like to go back to the question of the infiltration
chambers again, because I'm confused about them. Did you also use the
word "infiltration chambers" when it came to the cesspools, the septic
tanks. You used them for both the water system and for also the septic
system.
MR. BODWELL: That is correct.
MRS. PHILLIPS: Now I'm really confused. All right, so the water that
comes down from the sky will go into the infiltration chambers, which
are realty storm drains---then also from the sewage after it has been
treated, the nitrate treatment, then there's a collection chamber for
the sewage--the filtration chamber, is that what it is?
MR. BODWELL: That is correct.
MRS. PHILLIPS: Are they both the same thing? Do the storm drain
infiltration chambers a~d the septic tank infiltration chambers end
up in the same place?
MR. BODWELL: No, I'm trying to st~ow you on the ....
MRS. PHILLIPS: Well, I can't see. I really sort of resent you coming
here with something that: I can't see. I came to talk to you about it
and I'm concerned, and you did not. present us with the! opportunity to--
graphically--you did a very poor job
SUPERVISOR PELL: Turn the easel around.
it up here.
That was set so we could see
MRS. PHILLIPS: Well, I understand that.
Page 12 Reconvened ~blic Hearing - Nicholas S~..ick Change of Zone Petition
MR. BODWELL: So that we try to explain this once again, the infiltration
gallery--we'll try to clarify this. The storm water infiltration galleries
are the red dots on this map. The sanitary system consists of a collection
system of pipes, gravity pipes, going into a septic system, going into an
infiltration field--from the infiltration field going through a nitrifica-
tion removal tanks and then going into the series of infiltration galleries
that are 100 feet back--120 feet back from the top of the knoll, which
is roughly 170 feet from the property line, so that the infiltration of
septic waste will be a buffer for salt water intrusion.
MRS. PHILLIPS: All right, you're recycling the water then so that the
storm water and the fluid from the septic system, hoping that you will
be able to have a supply of water whenever you have a problem.
MR. BODWELL: Well, I would like to clarify that. The recycled septic
tank waste will probably 80~J go outboard, rather than in shore.
IIRS. PHILLIPS: To the Sound?
MR. BODWELL: Yes.
MRS. PHILLIPS: All right, one other question. You said that you were
going to put drainage ditches along the sides of the road in order to--
fresh water drainage ditches, large mosquito problems?
MR. BODWELL: No, these are drainage ditches that have a stone surface
so that the water is never visible on the surface, except possibly for
an hour or two after a heavy rain. The infiltration gallery that this
consists of, which is a storm water drainage system which in some projects
we've even supplemented by putting an underdrain system underneath the
stone to assure that the storm water gets back into the ground and
maximizes fresh water recharge. We're talking about systems that are
not unique to this particular area. Systems that are used today in
New Jersey, in Florida and getting to be a common concern throughout
the country, how do you maximize fresh water reclamation, and that's
what we're looking at.
MRS. PHILLIPS: Right, okay. Then 20% you say of the sewage waste
material will be reclaimed or reused and 80% will go out into the
Sound. Is that quite the thing to do? I've heard of untreated sewage
going out to sea--great tide you have at Orient Point, I'm sure things
can take care that way, but is it the thing to do?
MR. BODWELL: Let's say that the slope that was talked about by ~r.
Wickham is gradually going to the odean or the sound and we're taking
advantage of that gradiant, and there is a gradiant on this property
so that portions of it will be going out from this particular line.
What comes back--remember it is now being diluted with a ratio of about
one to five of fresh water, your treated effluent, and then we're putting
it through this high quality treatment system of the R-O so that we have
really a drinking water that would be about as good as you're going to
find in Southold.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else on the east before we move? II not
we're moving into the center section. ~rs. Adams.
Page 13 - Reconvened .~blic Hearing - Nicholas Su. ick Change of Zone Petition
MRS. ESTELLE ADAMS, Orient: I only would like one thing right now, and
that is for the Town Board and the rest of us, including the people
who hope to develop the country--the land, to see exactly where this
house is that Mrs. Wysocki was speaking about. She can show it to you,
where it is located, on this map that's here in front of us.
(Mrs. Wysocki indicated on the sketch plan the location of her property,
which adjoins the property of the existing Orient Point Inn.)
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else in the middle?
MRS. LYNDAL BRANDEIS, Orient: I'm still not quite sure about the
water going into the Sound. What is going to be in that water and
what will it do to the fish?
MR. BODWELL: I would like to highlight that the quality of the water,
once it has gone through the septic system, the sand filter system, the
denitrification system, then back in your infiltration gallery, will
probably be equal to, if not better, than the storm water that is on the
surface. Thesurface storm water by going through the long route it takes
to get to this infiltration gallery for your water supply, we clean up
the storm water. The storm water system and the septic system water are
both high quality water. The storm water we do know has a low PH problem.
We have to correct PH in our treatment. Those are things that we can
take care of with a high quality treatment system and so you understand--
I've talked about infiltration galleries here tonight. There are three
types, not jus~ two. There is the type here which is for our septic
system, an infiltration gallery for my storm water system, and there's
another infiltration gallery here which is a trench that will be dug
two and a half feet below sea level which will be layed with crushed
stone and porous pipe layed flat and that infiltration gallery then
goes to a chamber and it is from that chamber you pump your water for
your treatment and drinking and therefore we are confident that we will
not pull the water down more than two inches and then let's go back to
the pumping test. When we ran the pumping test we pulled the water
down 1.7 feet and a hundred feet away you couldn't measure that draw-
down. So that's why we're saying that a infiltration gallery will---
we only have to pull the water table down two inches to get the water
demand on this site. We will have no effect outside the limits of this
piece of land.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else in the second row?
MR. MARTIN TRENT, Orient: There seems to be a lot of unanswered
questions here tonight about the whole project and I guess if we're
going to end up arguing specifics I'll be happy to argue with the
engineers, but it's fact that the sewage will ultimately be discharged
into the Sound from the disposal systems that are proposed and their
water supply system, based on their best available technology, is un-
proven. Mr, Bodwell has s~ated that the water supply situation in
Orient Point is critical. Those are his words. They have another
problem in Orient Point which was brought up by Reverend Heitzman
at the last hearing and that's the quality of life. I think the
quality of life situation is critical also. You've heard testimony
from all the experts. Suffolk County Planning Department rejected
this proposed development, the County consultant ERM on North Fork
Water Supply says that water supply in Orient can't support any new
Page 14 - Reconvened .ablic Hearing - Nicholas Seasick Change of Zone Petition
major developments. You've heard in this very room Steve Engle~bright,
about a month and a half ago, he's the curator of the Long Island
Museum of Natural History at the Univerity of Stony Brook, say that
Southold Town has probably already reached the maximum population it
can support. You've heard from the Planning Board Chairman Mr. Wickham
about his opposition to the project and finally, and most important,
you've heard from a lot of people in Orient and a lot of people in
Southold Town and it boils down to what is appropriate for Orient.
You want to argue engineering specifics, whether or not the sewage
disposal system will work, whether or not the water supply system will
work, who is going to operate it. These are all unanswered questions.
They don't have adequate answers, it's obvious. This type or project
is not appropriate for the Village of Orient, not appropriate for this
area of Soufhold Town. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody in the second row wish to be heard? Moving
on to the third row. Mr. Martin.
MR. RALPH MARTIN, East Marion: We discussed about the R-O, filters and
so forth. What about the solid waste? After you get through with all
your tanks, your holding columns, your carbon towers and so forth. They're
going to close the Town dump in the next couple of years, what are you
going to use to get rid of the solid waste, and where are you going to
put it? Again you said you were pumping overboard 80~ of the water from
your end result from your septic system. Why can't that be put back
into the ground? Instead of using your road drains and you said which
this particular water from your septic system is perhaps more pure. Why
can't that be put back in[o the ground? Who is going to oversee all of
this--the chemical tests and the water purity is maintained? Will that
be submitted to the State continually on a certain monthly basis? And
you said you're bring some of the water back from the discharge system,
how is it getting back from the Sound? Does it go underground? Does
it become brackish and pulled back up again? I fish out there. I don't
want to se feces or whatever have you floating in the water. I doubt it
will ever come to that, but you never know. And I'd rather not swim in
it either, whether it be pure or not. If it's good enough to be put--
some of it be put back in the ground, put it all back, but what's going
overboard I have my doubts on the purity of it, really. That takes care
of that. I just want to ask one other thing. The hotel, I call it Taj
Mahal, when it is reconditioned or rebuilt or what have you, will it be
done prior to the construction of the condominiums, during construction
of the condominiums or after all of them have been sold and then it will
be rebuilt? That is based upon, of course, you sell all your condo-
minimums, not like the ones down at the bottom of Gillette--not Gillette
Drive but Shipyard Lane. I don't th~nk he's sold very many. I think
that the Orient hotel is nothing but a apple that's held in front of the
Town Board and the Town of Southold. If it would be possible, I'd like
some answers to these very simple questions.
MR. BODWELL: Let me first of all state that the effluent coming from
your third trestment plant and the design of the water supply as
contemplated, that the water supply of the project can be brought in
balance with none of your septic tank waste coming back into the water.
We're realistic enough to recognize that where we're discharging we
will cause some mounding in the vicinity of this discharge so that there
is a great possibility that both the septic waste and the storm drainage
coming off your roof drains both flow towards the infiltration gallery
Page 15 - Reconvened _~blic Hearing - Nicholas S~ick Change of Zone Petition
for your water supply. As far as what waste and solids are coming off
the project, you have two types of solids. You have the solids that
come from your garbage disposal; that problem will have to be solved
as long with those other solid waste problems in Southold. I don't
think we're here tonight to discuss that. As far as the waste that
comes out of your septic tanks, that will take probably treatment and
removal of solids from your septic tank at least once every two to three
years.
MR. MARTIN: Was that 90 thousand gallons of water that you're going
to run a day, I believe that's the figure you gave.
MR. BODWELL: That's the peak day. A normal day, with 5 million gallons
a year, the normal will be probably about half of that, and that is
because peak days are only going to occur on your weekends during the
months of July and August. That's when you have your peak water demands.
The quality and discharge anything into the Sound--remember now we're
running through, on your septic tank, we're running through the sand
filter, we're running through a combination sulphur and limestone
filter and then we're running back into the galleries here and we have
120 feet of sand to run fhe effluent through before it gets any salt
wa~er.
MR. MARTIN: Correct, but; as I say you did mention that 80~ of that
effluent was going into the sea.
MR. BODWELL: In the direction of the sea. Underground.
pipe it's in---
It's not a
MR. MARTIN: You did say at the previous meeting that it was going into
Long Island Sound.
MR. BODWELL: Through a 125--120 feet of sand layer. And a 120 feet of
sand layer between the point we're discharging it into the gallery and
then it has to run through that 120 feet before it hits any salt water.
Most of your houses today I doubt have that much barrier between what
we are using as our discharge point and our fresh water intake flotation.
We're roughly, on most of these sites, 350 to 400 feet from the point
we're dischargi~g our septic tank to the point where we're pulling in
fresh water.
MR. MARTIN: There will be no effluent whatsoever going into the sea?
MR. BODWELL: No direct effluent.
MR. MARTIN: Direct?
MR. BODWELL: That's right.
MR. MARTIN: What about the Orient Point Inn in terms of reconstruction
or rebuilding of that in terms of the condomini~ construction?
MS. WICKHAM: I think I can answer the construction plan. The Inn will
be worked under in the first stage of Ehe construction of the entire
project. What that means is when the first sixteen units or so go up,
half of the Inn units will also be done and the Inn itself would be
Page 16 - Reconvened .~blic Hearing - Nicholas $~..ick Change of Zone Petition
done. So it will be done at the beginning of the project and not after
everything is completed.
MR. MARTIN: That would be dependent upon how marly condominiums would
be sold at that time or would it go as construction proceeds and not
have any direct relationship with any of the condominiums that are
sold?
liS. WICKHAM: That's the construction phase.
MR. MARTIN: I'm trying to ascertain whether the Inn would be done
prior to or after a certain number or condominiums have been sold.
Perhaps none sell and then the Inn isn't done either, is what I'm
driving at. Or will that go forward regardless of what happens to
the sale of the condominiums?
ItS. WICKHAM: We are anticipating from our market studies that that's
not even going to be a conceivable problem.
MR. MARTIN: Shipyard Lane is a great deal, you know, and I'll give you
another example .....
MS. WICKHAM: If you were here at the last hearing there was a discussion
of Shipyard Lane. It's not even a comparable project.
MR. MARTIN: I don't doubt it, but there's still some up for sale.
SUPERVISOR PELL:
Wacker.
Anybody else in the third row? Fourth row? Mrs.
MRS. RONNIE WACKER, Cutchogue: I'm concerned about open development
in Southold Town, anywhere in the Town. I want to speak to another
issue. These subdivisions I object to because they destroy the special
character of Southold Town, the farmland and open space, which in this
Town means money and jobs. Now, our industry is tourism and tourism
means open space, because tourists are not going to come out here and
spend their money when they find the same thing that they left back
home, a lot of houses and condominiums. If I were a motel owner or
a restaurant owner I think I'd be worried about subdivisions like
this and I hope that we wait until we have another new master plan
which will provide for preservation of open space before we give away
any more of it. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Mr. Walter Smith.
PROFESSOR WALTER SMITH, Orient: Sometimes you've been confused, but
tonight I think exceeds everything. The mention was 5 million gallons
a year. This comes to 15 thousand gallons a day which I don't think
will supply very many people, so that leads to another problem. Another
problem I'm worried about is he has a very nice picture there, but he
has no contour lines. In other words, how far above sea level are
these various components that he's putting in? In 1950-some odd we
had a storm surge of I think eight feet two ~nches and the water level
has come up since then, so we can expect a higher storm surge right
now. An then he talks about filter material. He just goes over, he's
going to take lhe sulphur out and so forth, what happens to all that
filter material? Are you going to take it to the Town dump? What are
Page 17 - Reconvened ~blic Hearing - Nicholas S...ick Change of Zone Pefition
they going to do with it? An now I've been teaching chemistry for
many many years and I've never seen anything disappear. I think the
nitrates and phosphates and such are going to be here and he talks
about 100 feet, 130 feet from the water level. I remember years ago
we did a study in Goose Creek studying movement--one of the movements
with phosphate, nitrates and nitrites through the gravel. It took
about three weeks for material to move from the cesspool into Goose
Creek. In fact, we could graph the concentrations, what holidays it
was by level of phosphate in the water. Interesting thing. An then
another thing that happens here, what happens if we have a long period
of deep freeze? I mean I can vision two rows of ice on either side of
the road, nice skating. Then we have the other point, the non-point
pollution. This is a favorite of mine. Fifty percent of all the waste
~hat's generated is non-point. In fact, that's one of the problems with
the Southwest Sewer District. We spent billions building a sewer plant
but it only controls 505 of the waste. We've dogs, we've cats, we've
all these other animals that really contribute a fantastic amount of
waste. And then we also have the next problem coming up the line of
viruses. Now the Department of Health--County Department of Health
for a number of years has felt that 100 feet was enough to get rid of
a virus. Now we find 200 feet--the Brookhaven study of the 208 group--
we're gefting viable viruses 200 feet away from the point source. So
there are a lot of problems I think that have to be looked at and very
written answers made--made available to everyone so we can read them,
because I don't think a verbal display is enough. I think we have to
have it on pencil and paper and see what's going on. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else in the fourth row? If not, in the fifth
row? In the sixth row back there? Anybody else in back of the room
that wants to be heard? Yes, mam?
MRS. VIRGINIA GILL, Orient: I just wan~ to say that we do not want.
fhis condominium complex in Orient Point because of the problems with
wate~~, sewage, and traffic which have not been adequately explained
away. This proposed condominium/conference center would change the
atmosphere of the whole community. For most of us this is our only
home, not our second home. Many of us have invested our savings to
retire here, hoping to spend the rest of our days in this beautiful
area. At the last meeting Ms. Wickham spoke with disdain of new-
comers wanting to close the door behind them. I am a relative new-
comer, I've only been here for eight years, but I do pay taxes here,
I do vote here, I contribute to local organizations, I even donate my
blood here, so I feel very much a part of Southold Town. I do want to
close the door to multiple residence zoning. I would like to show you
something. This is good clear delicious Orient water. We have it now,
we cannot take it for granted. Let us hope we have it for a few years
in the future. I want to mention this article in Newsday recently. All
about Long Island's water problem. Very interesting. They mentioned
about the wa~er problems of shoreline communities such as Long Beach.
I happen to work there. They state, "Experts do not forsee similar
salt water intrusion in Suffolk in the near future, except on the North
Fork. Good water management should have top priority." I quote again
from this article, "In some parts of Long Island, Nassau and eastern
Suffolk the future is already here." I hope our Town Board will consider
our concerns, and thank you very much for listening.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else in the back of the center section who
wishes to be heard? We'll move over to the west. Mr. Berks.
Page 18 - Reconvened ..ablic Hearing - Nicholas St,lick Change of Zone Petition
MR. ROBERT BERKS, Orient: I don't want to repeat all the
that have been said. I'd like to ask the gentleman who's
the water study, has he put together an exac~ system like
has it been in operation for ten years?
things
presented
this and
MR. BODWELL: No, it's been in operation for six years.
MR. BERKS: Where?
MR. BODWELL: Florida.
MR. BERKS: Florida isn't the same circumstances, as Mr. Wickham spoke.
MR. BODWELL: Florida is more rigerous than this one here because we
had a higher brackishness content.
MR. BERKS: I don't think that's an adequate answer to the question,
as pointed out before. Next question. If such a system is put in and
the corporation goes bankrupt, who is responsible to maintain this very
complex system with all the parts, and as you said earlier it goes back
to the Town. The question I ask, why do we need more problems than we
have now? Thank you.
MRS. TODD BERK$, Orient: Part of this belongs to the same question.
Has there been an ~onomic assessment made of this project?
MS. WICKRA~i: Yes, very thorough.
MRS. BERKS: Has the Board examined it?
MS. WICKHAM: We didn't submit it to the Board, no, it is our projection,
and the R-O system, even with the additional surge system that the Board
of Health suggests that it be left as a contingency as well within the
budgetary guidelines.
MRS. BERKS: Does it include what the taxpayer burden will be?
MS. WICKRAM: Mr. Wolf, last meeting ....
MRS. BERKS: He painted a glowing picture. I can't really believe it.
I wonder if you have a worst case scenario in this--in your economic
assessment? We heard Mr. Wolf's best case scenario and it was dazzling
but I wonder what the worst cas~ scenario is, ;~nd as my colleague here
said, if for some reason these projects don't sell and we're caught
with the burden of it~ what will it cost the taxpayer to maintain?
MS. WICKHAM: I don't know exactly what your question is~ but we--
there have been tremendous amount of cost projections in terms of
the water, in terms of the maintenance. The whole system is designed--
has been designed for minimal maintenance and minimal cost~ and certainly
all of the projections we have had on market studies, on need and on
demand indicate that the project is financially viable. Both the inn/
convention center portion of it as well as the private investor
condominium center.
MRS. BERKS: And the rest of the question. If it fails?
Page 19 - Reconvened ~ablic Hearing - Nicholas Sc.,ick Change of Zone Petition
MS. WICKHAM: If it fails? Well, any project can fail.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Mrs. Berks, will you please stand up and repeat it
if you want an answer so everybody can hear the question.
MRS. BERKS: Quite simply, this project is one that exists in many
places in this country and some of them very successfully, but in
one swoop this project is planning to change completely the character
of this Town and certainly of the village of Orient and if it does
make this dramatic change it should have some long-reaching responsibility
for these changes and it should be able to project failure as well as
market research success.
MS. WICKRAM: What we're proposing is a project for a very unique, very
special piece of property. It's going to be a condominium project which
involves maintenance charges, owner/investors---owners and investors and
therefore those people will bear the burden of the cost of the system.
It's going to be built in stages so certainly in terms of the actual
impact, if the first stages aren't financially successful, they won't
continue and have the full project, and the construction will proceed
along that basis. Certainly before the project is even constructed I'm
sure there will be further market studies. We are just at the zoning
stage and the entire project still has to go through site plan review
and many details have to be worked out--what the services will be
delivered by the home owner's association, etc.
SUPERVISOR PELL: All right, anybody else on the west side? Mr. Moore.
MR. DAVID MOORE, Orient: I didn't come here prepared with a question,
but just picking up on that one, would the Town consider demanding or
requiring some sort of a performance bond from the developer equivalent
to the cost of putting a public water system and sewer system and so
forth into that area before they start the construction? So that way
if it goes bust the bond will be there, the Town is insured against
financial disaster and if it's feasible, I don't even know whether it
is, but at least that way the Town's people would be protected.
SUPERVISOR PELL: The Town Board can look into it.
it's feasible at this time either. Anybody else
I don't know if
on the west? Yes,
MR. JOHN ROINS, Orient: Perhaps it would be a good idea also to get a
performance bond assuring that the quality of life in Orient is not
changed.
MRS. KAY HOINS, Orient: There were a couple of
that came to my mind. We spoke of the disposal
of those would there be? Your drawing presents
how many disposal units will there be?
questions that I had
of waste. How many
one disposal unit,
MR. BODWELL: Between eight and ten.
MRS. HOINS: And one of those will serve the Inn as well?
MR. BODWELL: Maybe two at the Inn.
MRS. HOINS: Two at the Inn to handle dish washing, clothes washing?
Thank you.
Page 20 - Reconvened ~ablic Hearing - Nicholas Sc,,ick Change of Zone Petition
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else on the west side?
MRS. KATHLEEN LATHAM, Orient: I want to ask about swimming pools. You
haven't mentioned those. How many pools did you have in mind for this
large group?
MS. WICKHAM: One.
MRS. LATHAM: One. I don't know any details about how much water that
takes to use and clean and so forth, but I don't know if that went: into
your projection of water use. Did it you?
MR. BODWELL: Yes.
MRS. LATHAM: Would it be a fresh water pool or a salt water pool?
MR. BODWELL: I'm anticipating fresh water.
MRS. LATHAM: Fresh water pool. Okay, well there were just a couple
of things I want to go over that Mr. Bodwell said. One remark that
impressed me which you said that it was a very shallow fresh water
system and I felt that was a good point. Another thing that worried
me a little, you said, "we think that by having an infiltration gallery--",
I put the emphasis on , "we will minimize the dropping of the water
table." But, it's a little like that parachute that l{ilton Heitzman
spoke about, you know, if we're not sure, we think. Okay, another
comment you said--you were talking about the sewage treated--not a
treatment plant but the sewage which had gone through the different
things and water going out--not 80~, but some of it going out into
the Sound and I think we all had the same question, but why not use
that, why don't you plan to use that water since you're trying to get
all the water you can?
MR. BODWELL: Well, I think we have a very simple problem today that
we have a system where we can bring the fresh water available to the
site in balance with our water supply and have a safety factor of two
in a drought year, a safety factor of two and a half to three in a
wet year, so we feel with those types of safety factors, there's no
justification to bringing your septic system in closer to your potential
recharge even though many of you I am aware are working with systems and
living with systems today where a higher percentage of recharge is taking
place with your septic waste than what we are proposing on this site. We
feel the total water balance, and we're looking at this as not only storm
water management, but fresh water, drinking supply management, we have
a system that has got a lot of conservativism in it, has gone through two
extensive reviews in Albany and we feel that we are basically being
conservative and we have the simple expedient, if necessary, to back
up our water supply by moving the distance.
MRS. LATHAM: Without using that extra part?
MR. BODWELL: Yes.
MRS. LATHAM: Okay, now Virginia Gill brought a sample of water that
she has, but we don't. We're using--where I live at Pete Neck we're
using an R-O system. We just have a little tank and I believe that
Page 21 - Reconvened ,ublic Itearing - Nicholas Seasick Change of Zone Petition
for every drop of water we get, six drops of water are wasted, not 15%
of the water, but 600~ of the water is wasted, so that concerns me a
little, the idea that you might have more waste than---I don't know.
MR. BODWELL: Fifteen percent is based on the fact we do not anticipate,
based on the tests and documentation we have developed to date, that you
will ever go over 750 parts chlorides. Remember, drinking water quality
is acceptable with a total TDS of roughly 500. That means with other
constituents you can keep your chlorides in the 350 to 400 range on
this side.
MRS. LATHAM: Now, last thing I wanted to say. The property now, I
believe, is zoned agricultural-residential, is that right?
SUPERVISOR PELL: Most of it. There's one little section of "M".
MRS. LATHAM: Except for the Inn, right, which I think was built by
some ancestor of my husband's, but I'm willing to give it up. Anyway,
now, so that's the way it's zoned now, most of it, agricultural-residential.
And as we have the studies going on I think what we have to consider that
although it's one acre per family, I think we all have to consider now
that we want to go to maybe two acres, maybe five acres per family in
order not 5o swamp the boat--that's sort of putting it backwards, but:
why would we want to change it for more families instead of less?
Really, why--what would be the reason for the Town Board to okay changing
it for more when what we really should be doing is---but even if we didn't
change it all, the [east we could do is---I mean, there doesn't seem to
be any good reason to change it for more dwellings. We don't really want
more and we've lots of reasons. Thank you very much.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else want to be heard on the west side of the
room? If not, before we close, anybody else want to be heard at all
here?
MRS. HUGHES, Orient: I'm the lady that lives way down the end. We
live at the house down at the end and while we have enjoyed so many
years there I just cannot imagine living with condominiums and
convention centers in our backyard. We have had a water problem for
all the years we have been there, which has been a long time and we
have put up with it because we loved it so much.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Thank you, Mrs. Hughes. Over here on the east side
I saw a hand. Yes, sir.
MR. LINTON DUELL, Orient: I was a former real estate agent for Grumman
Allis, California and IIawaii. There are a couple of questions--and these
really don't pertain to Mr. Dodwell, but I've been to three of these
meetings now and the problem with the meetings that I've encountered
is each person who has spoken for the developer has had a different
approach as to what this project is going to be and if I can get my
thoughts together, I'll see if I can figure it out. Early on when we
had the town meefing in Orient there was supposed to be a small convention
center with 120 unit condominiums and in the first proposal there was
only 20 rooms for the convention center. There was supposed to be a
two month project. People would come to stay July and August for what
we call the "season", Memorial Day to Labor Day, and that would be it.
Page 22 - Reconvened ,ublic Hearing - Nicholas So,lick Change of Zone Petition
If I'm not mistaken, that was Mr. Buchanan's approach. Then at the
last meeting here a couple of weeks ago, I could be mistaken about
who was doing the speaking, but it was Ms. Wickham or Mr. Weintraub,
they stretched the season, because they were trying to impress us with
the fact that we would have greater employment for people in our area
who need the employment. Now those are two diametrically opposed positions.
First they're trying to sell us a project that's supposedly only going fo
affect us for two months out of the year. Then you turn aronnd and you
tell us that there will be more people staying out longer, there won't
be the "season", Memorial Day to Labor Day, but it will be early April
to late October, maybe into December. We've got nice weather now, we've
got a lot of people that come out whose houses aren't even closed up.
So now the point I'm going to get at is, the water system is supposedly
used during those two months at its peak, 90 thousand gallons during the
two month period, probably July 4th weekend. Okay, that's fine, I can
understand that because it's going to be shut down at either end. But
the position you've made now is that the project is going to really be
stretched out. There'l] be people staying longer so that means the water
supply is going to have to handle more and more, there won't be as massive
recharge during the lean months as you say there will be, because there
will be more water being used. I'd like to know what the position of
this project is. Are we looking at a summertime condominium/convention
plan, are we looking at a year-around plan where say 50% of the units
will be occupied either by occupant/owner or by rentals. It seems to
me you people are telling us two different things to the group that
you're presenting if to, and if you would become a little more concise
about how your project is aimed, maybe we could make a better decision
on whether or not it's going to affect our way of life.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Gall, does anybody want to answer that?
MR. BUCHANAN: I'd be happy to answer tbat, because I was af both
heari~gs, obviously, and of course from our view point we have been
consistent, even though it has been received differently. We've
stated that the project has two components, one of which are the
condominium units that will basically, we feel from market survey,
be used as resort condominiums and there are approximately 120 of
those unJts. That the inn and conference center as an adjunct to
that an additional 30 suites which will be used--will be rented or
used by their owners part of the time during the su~ner and also
rented to summer occupancy and then used on either end of the season
as part of this conference facility, which is not a convention center,
it's not a large--it's not nearly large enough a building or have
enough facilities to be anything like Harrison Inn or other places
you might know of and we--so far as the use, we cannot control--
obviously, the use of someo~es home, nor do we intend to. The market
is basically aimed at people who would be buying homes,primarily as
a second home and [ think--I believe we've been consistent in saying
that and that has been our goal and it's on that that w~rious market
analysis have been based and that means there will be a peak season
in terms of water l~ut it will not start up on che first of July, neither
will it drop to nothing on the first of September.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Thank you. Anybody else wish to ask anything before
we close this meeting? Anybody else who has not spoken yet before we
go back to tbe second time around? Yes, sir, in back of the room.
Page 23 - Reconvened Pablic Hearing - Nicholas Schick Change of Zone Petition
MR. DANIEL MENDOLSON, Orient: I have a home in Orient Point in Orient-
By-The Sea. I'm very much impressed by the lack of endorsement of this
project by anybody except those people who are hired to endorse it.
There hasn't been one voice raised in favor of it. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR PELL:
of the room.
Anybody else that wishes to be heard?
In the back
MR. PETE NATHANSON, Orient: I live and have a business at Orient Point.
Excuse me for not being here earlier, I had a prior commitment of a
meeting. I think I'll be possibly the one person who is affected most
by this because I do live there and also I have a business right there
adjacent, just directly across the street from this project. If water
is a big problem l'm going to lose my house and in turn also lose my
business. Because of the restaurant/snack bar facility I'm very
reliant upon water. As far as I'm concern from the business aspect
of it, more business in the area, as a business man I'd be foolish
not to say I want to see more business. Any other business man there
would probably be the same way. If I can be guaranteed that I'm going
to have my water, if this water system will prove adequate for the area
and not affect anyone else I have to say I'm definitely all for it.
Maybe I'm the only one that's going to say yes if they want, but deep
down inside I would definitely like to see the area developed.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else wish to be heard? Anybody else wish
to be heard on this before I take people for a second time? Mr. Buell.
MR. DUELL: Now that 5~r. Buchanan has answered my lengthy first question,
I'm going to go on to something else which is closer to what I used to
do. I'd like to know who's going to be managing your not convention
center, but your hotel suites or whatever you want to call it? And do
you see any type of time-sharing, lease-back or any type of participation
between the condominium owners or whoever owns those condominium units
and some type of management firm. I'd like to know if it's .just going
to be owner-occupant and per se a rental agreement between the owner-
occupant and somebody else or are these units going to be pooled into
some type of pseudo hotel-condominium group. I'm familiar with those,
I've worked them before and this is starting to give me an idea. I've
seen this happen before, I've been a participant and I'm starting to
get to feel that if these un,ts aren't occupied by the owners then
there may be some other means in which the owners will recoop or carry
themselves through the lean period of the year, whether it's through
young families who need to rent something for nine months out of the
year or whether or not you're going to expand your convention center
and rent the units as an increase in your hotel suites. I'm talking
about time-sharing and lease-back.
IIR. BUCHANAN: You're talking about the units, not the suites or the
other---
MR. DUELL: I'm not worried about the suites, I'm worried about the
150 units, whether nor not it's going to be owner-occupant or what?
SUPERVISOR PELL: Gail, address the Board, please.
MS. WICKHAM: As far as the 120 units, I we have that number clear,
that will be the condominiums outside the inn, those will be privately
Page 24 - Reconvened ublic Hearing - Nicholas Sc.~ick Change of Zone Petition
owned by condominium owners. Now, if they're going to rent them, that's
up to them. It will be a standard condominium maintenance in terms of
the management. There will also be 30 units, which Mr. Buchanan mentioned,
affiliated with the inn. Those will also be privately condominiums~ how-
ever, during the convention season, which is primarily, as was mentioned,
spring and fall, they will be under the control of the management for
use in the conference center.
MR. DUELL: Fine, that answers my question half way. 120 units now,
will they be able to tie in with your management group?
MS. WICKHAM; It's not contemplated that they will. The conference
center, because of its size and capacity in terms of the restaurant
and everything else, will be for the 30 units, the suites that are
going to be involved with the inn.
MR. DUELL: Okay, thank you.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Anybody else wish to be heard on this before we
close the hearing? Mrs. Tiedke.
MRS. TIEDKE: I'm still concerned about the water. You mentioned that
there will be enough water for a drought year. Do you recall a drought
of the late 50's that ran to about 1965 on Long Island? Were you here?
MR. BODWELL: I was not hero.
Island. The drought year was
talking about---
MRS. TIEDKE:
MR. BODWELL:
MRS. TIEDKE:
MR. BODWELL:
I didn't say it
I was doing engineering projects in Long
not a fifteen year period that you're
was 15 years.
You said a drought ran for ....
From the lat 50's to about 1965.
You're talking about the five or six year period. Those
drough~ years were not as severe as certain other droughts we have
records of and we planned this project for the most severe drought
year---
MRS. TIEDKE: Yeu said a drought year, you did not say a series of
drought years.
MR. BODWELL: Tt~at is true. We picked the worst year for a drought
year.
MRS. TIEDKE: In that span--1958 or '59 to '65, what was the worst
of that six or seven years?
MR. BODWELL: I can't answer that tonight. I'll be glad to look it
up and provide it for you.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Before I close the hearing .... ~Ir. John Wickham.
MR. WICKHAM: I'd just like to follow up what she says. The ~reci~itation
in one of those years was a base period which we used for the study whicl~
Page 25 - Reconvened ~'ublic Rearing - Nicholas Schick Change of Zone Petition
Cornell assisted us with. The rainfall was roughly half--half of what
we often get. But the thing I wanted to particularly bring to your
attention was the fact that the last time I appeared before your Board
we were talking about something else, namely Temik, and ground water
problems. Since then I've had a chance to spend several hours with
a professor at Cornell and he made a point which I think is important
in this context. He was talking about the factor of safety. He says
the factor of safety is a judgment factor, not one to be made by
scientists, one to be made by people. I would like to point out to
you that the factor of safety and use in Temik is a factor of 1000.
The factor that we've just been presented with is a factor 2. A slight
d~fference, gentlemen.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Before we close the hearing, counsel do you have
any remarks you want to make before we close it?
MS. WICKHAM: At the last meeting I addressed the reasons for the
rezoning and number of arguments that were made by the people other
than water, and I'm not going to repeat them for you tonight, they're
in the record. I'd just like to say as far as the water tests go,
there was some concern about the scientific basis for this test. I
think Mr. Bodwell's credentials are apparent and are included in the
report and his detailed testing and basis for his conclusions are in
the report. We are also not only looking to what our engineers are
telling us but what the authority of the State Department of Hea[lth
is saying in terms of a review process, and nothing can go forward
without their official okay. As I say, we do have a technical
endorsement of the project and the details will be worked out if and
when we go through with the site plan, depending on the decision here
tonight. I think that questions of margin for errors or factors for
safety and possible contingency problems have been addressed in Ihat
report and presented tonight. I don't have anything further.
SUPERVISOR PELL: Gentlemen on the Board, anything you would like to
ask the counsel or the developers? (No response.) Il' not ....
MS. WICKHAM: I would like to submit Mr. Bodwell's Report and the letfer
from the Health Department.
SUPEI{VISOR PELL: If there is nothing further, the hearing will be
c]osed as of this time.
dith T, Terry
Sou~hold Town Clerk
Orient
P.O. BOX 66
GREENPORT, NEW YORK 11944
East Marion Greenp0rt S0uth01d Pec0nic
December 10, 1982
Supervisor atlZiam R. PmI!
& $outhold Tomn Board
Tomn Hall
$outhold, Nme York 11971
III
Gentlmmmn:
PLease be advised that the roLloming reeoLutton aaa passed by the
Board o? D/rectors or the Oreenport-Southold Chamber o? Commerce
at a regular meeting held on December 6, f982:
"RESOLV£D that the Crmenport-Southold Chamber o~ Commerce favorably
supports the proposed changm or zone from "A" Residential-Agricultural
District to "~" Light ~ultipim Residence District on property of
Nicholas Schick located at ~ain Road, Orient~ Nmi York and recommends
approval of this charism of zone application by fha Southold Tomn Board.
I~ ia the opinion of this chamber that our area has long ~een tn timed
or such a convmntton center-motel complex. We believe that it mould
genmrata the tourist industry and tharmby create a boon to the mconomy
of the local arma,".
This letter is sent as a re-affirmation of our original letter sent
to the Planning Board and Sou[hold Tomn Board on July 26, 1982.
Very truly yours,
John H. Berryman, President
r. reanport-Southold Chamber
JUDITIIT TFRRY
OFFICE OF THE TOWN CLERK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
Town Hall, 53095 Main Road
P.O. Box 728
Southold, New York 11971
TELEPHONE
(516) 765-1801
December 23, 1982
Abigail Wickham, Attorney
Wickham, Wickham & Bressler, P.C.
Ma~n Road
Mattituck, New York 11952
Dear Gail:
Enclosed herewith is a "Notice of Significant Effect on
the Environment" in connection with the Nicholas Schick petition
for a Change of Zone, which determination was the subject of a
Town Board resolution on December 21, 1982, copy of which is
enclosed also.
Mr. Schick is hereby requested to prepare a draft environ-
mental impact statement for submission to me upon completion.
Very truly yours,
Judith T. Terry
Southold To%vn Clerk
Enclosures
JUDITIt T TERRY
OFFICE OF THE TOWN CLERK
TOWN OF $OUTHOLD
Town Hall, 53095 Main Road
P.O. Box 728
Southold, New York 11971
TELEPHONE
t516) 765-1801
NOTICE OF SIGNIFICANT EFFECT ON THE ENVIRONMENT
Dated: December 21, 1982
Pursuant to the provisions of Article 8 of the Environmental
Conservation Law; Part 617 of Title 6 of the New York State Codes,
Rules and Regulations; and Chapter 44 of the Southold Town Code,
the Southo!d To%mi Board, as lead agency, does hereby determine
that the action described below is a Type I action and is likely
to have a significant effect on the environment.
DESCRIPTION OF ACTION
Petition of Nicholas Schick for a change of zone from "A" Residential
and Agricultural District to "M-l" General Multiple Residence District
on certain property ar Orient, in the Town of Southold, New York.
Further information can be obtained by contacting Mrs. Judith T.
Terry, Southold Town Clerk, Southold Town Hall~ Main Road, Southold,
New York 11971
Copies to:
David DeRidder, DEC, Stony Brook
Commissioner Flacke, DEC, Albany
Southold Town Building Department
Southold Town Planning Board
Town Clerk's Bulletin Board
Abigail Wickham, Attorney for Nicholas
Schick
PATRICK E. LYONS
2,2: tnST 20~h STP[-ET NE'/v ~OPk N'~ 100~6
December 7, 1992
Mr. William Pell, Supervisor
Southold Town Hall
Main Road
Southold, New York 11971
TO' i Off $OUTHO -D ,
Dear Supervisor Pell:
I am writing to you as a concerned citizen o[ Orient regarding
the pending vote you are to make on the Nicholas Schick project
at Orient Point.
At the first public hearing, I expressed my indignation at the attempt
by Mr. Schick and associates to use their "proposed restoration"
of the Orient Pmnt inn as a wedge to move the residents of Orient
to Iavor their ill-conceived scheme. I will state that there is NO
sentiment in Orient in [avor of Mr. Schick's "restoration"; they
may as well start from scratch with their proposed con[erence
center, for under their plans there will be virtually none of the
original inn saved,
There are many other more important factors which make this
proposed development scheme a disaster for Orient and for Southold
Town.
We reside on Main Road and the current level of trafiic, especially
in the summer months, is already near capacity--I do not need some
hypothetical report, paid for by Mr. Schick, to tell me otherwise--
because I live there.
The plans for water and sewer resources at Orient Point, as proposed,
will alot work; again you are being asked to rely on another hypo-
thetical report, again paid for by Mr. Schick. kl/hat I tear is that
all of us as taxpayers in Orient and Southold Town will eventually
have to pay the cost of polluted sea and ground water and the cost
o[ an alternative water supply.
I implore you, Mr. Pell, to vote NO to this ill-pLanned and eventually
distrous scheme. Thank you for your kind attention.
RECEIVED
Town Clerk Southold
TO tae Town .Doard
ooutnold, ~.%.
GenSlemen;
Oefore i z'eCirem i was a teacher in£~ew ~orK City, and i
my sucre:ers trav~lling in tais country and in ~urope, waere 1 saw
manj spectacularlj beautiful places. 'z'nen i sp~n~ a s~r in
urien~, w~zere I naa frienas. ~t firs5 I founa it charming an~ a
bit ~ull, but suun 1 came tu eeo t~at, in 1ts quiot ~ay, w~tn its
open ~paces, i~s farms and varied ,~a~rs, its lovely weli-kep%
village, it was u~ique aha as Oeautiful as anything i ~ se~n
anywhere. ~.~ore, i ~s impressed wiG~ ~ne cuurtesj an~ ~i~anoss
of its ~eople, ann with their civic priue in tae QoaUL~
Lnem ann ~neir oobormination to pro=erve
fortunate enough bo finn a small house to ouy, ann I nave since
Do~n a ~ovo$~d resimen%. I r~avo naa visits ~lere from
French, l%alian and Polish frionds. ~11 foil in love wit~
anG marvelled at i%s continued existence in a wurld increasi~gly
overcrowded, ugly and u~uly, l u cnang~G 51'~eir conceptiun of
~erica, which they nad expec%ed to ling materialistic and garish.
'l'r~e developmen%s proposed, orient Point ~nd oettlers,
profounaly cnango bne character of orient, quite asime from
health =nd safety problems, simply by doubling or peraaps tripling
%ne population. The pressure for mor~ shops, wimer roads, a
gaudier s~yle of life, would be overwnelmi~g.
You few gentlemen on 5ne Board are the sole guarOimns of
unique treasure, leu nave the awesome po~er to presez~ve it for
post6riCy or let it be ruined. I pray that y~u will nave tae wisdom
to proservo it.
oincerely,
~i. rs. ~bn~l ~randeis~
Orient Point
Southold New York
Buchanan.Weintraub Architects
Henderson& Bodwell Engineers
Nicholas Schick Developer
Site ':
', Orienl~Point '-~
,eTti?Site Plea ~.~ i
,.~. ~.,~-~' ...
View kom ~eadow Iowarcl Big House and Beach Club
Ioward Beach Hous®B ~ Beach Club
View of the Inn/Conference Center
/t/
View from Dining Porch to Long Island Sound
View of Two-Story Lounge
It comes as · real surpebe to
mm flint any of the ofl~tals of the
Town of Southold is sm~onsly
mnsidertnu the development of
the Orient Point property for
anything else than the renewal or
replacement of th~ hotel.
.Consider that in the past the
Plaunin8 Board turned down
uppll~flons reqneetln~ less than
one house per acre, stating that
there wl, an't gtmmdwater enonuh
for that density under this
pmpe~.
Consider that tn the put nearly
iH of our mnR~ple residence uses
have been of seasonal nature --
motels nad tho like -- which were
only occupied for part of the year.
Condominiums. on the other
band, can be expected to be
lans~d for off-seuon use in many
c~ses. This wJfl result in much
more wate~ ~nsumptinn. ~n fact,
out "M" dintTint deneky allow-
ance wn~ determined fDr putt-
ttnle occupancy only, and R Is no
doubt t~me that we entaBlished a
~nlums.
There bein8 no possibilR~ of
anpplyln~ the water needed for
the p~,~l~ed deveJopment f~)m
on-site wells without ~t tn~u.
sion, the very real question is how
the water requh'ements are to he
met. The a~vcrse o~no~Jn plan
ml~t work for s while, but can be
expected tn hcre~e nallnRy tn
nearby &,z~]ndwater to the Ix)inS
cal. In sho~, out ~mdwater
comes only from rain and snow.
~ic~h water might be used by
the p~D~ed method for a short
time, but, quite simply, you
cannot ~et more ~reih water than
fails on the land for any protrac-
ted period.
· ruble ~st. This, of coupe,
~d cut. do~ on the field of
li~ units, but, much more
~t, what wo~d be ~ne
~ the ~moved s~t? h is
l~ely il ~d ~ ~lowed to
in~ea~ ~e s~hRy of eRher
~d or by. It wo~d ~imply
have to be truc~d away.
~e oth~ ~tomative would
to ~end the ~een~ water
m8~s to ~ant ~ht. ~ is no
~u~ that m~y p~ple ~ ~ent
nd ~ssibly ~een~ ~uld
~l~me such n pl~ even
R wo~d ~ ex~nsive. However,
to p~de the add~n~ water
requirements the G~an~ sys-
tem ~uld have to develop a new
weilfield, ~is ~uld p~sumably
be st Cutchosue, and even
i~o~g the ~s of such
p~. ~e ~dants of Magi-
tuck, New Su~lk nd N~nu
~ht who ~ have a ~ic~
s~ htrus~n pmb~m ~d
mo~ relu~t to ~ &eir only
surplus aren pumped out to
supply this ~ of thug at ~ant.
~ sho~, ~though we c~ be
~nably su~ that the County
~d of He~th ~ turn
&Is pmj~. we all. town o~ci~s
~d ~sidants ~e, mu~ cle~ly
~der~snd that ~e ~dwat~
of ~u~old is abMlutely l~ited.
~r present ~n~S ~ based on
· is fa~. If there is a que~i~ of
who or what w~ez u~ ~ets
p~o~y It bemmes ~ isle
eye.one ~ the Town of ~uthotd.
S~ly you~,
J~
~..; ..... * Ct~o~ue, N.Y.
Lab No,
Field No. ~//.~>
Date;
Time:
Col, By: '~'/'~-'~
(Name not initials)
Date Received in Lab
Public Water
Private Water
Other
Date Completed
Examined By
SUFFOLK COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES
PUBLIC HEALTH LABORATORY
CHEMICAL EXAMINATION OF WATER
Point of Collection
Partial L~
Owner or
District
Complete E3
Resample []
Free Ammonia
Nitrites +
MBAS (m9/I)
Spec. ~nd.
~mhos/cm
Chlorides (mg/I
Sulfates (mg~ SO
Iron (mg/I Fe)
~p~r (mg/I Cu)
Zinc (mg/I Zn)
~dium (mg~
Nitrites (mg~ N)
T.Hardness (mg/I CaCO3)
T. Alkalinity (mg/~ CaCO3}
Ca Hardness (mg/I CaCO3)
Mg Hardness(mg/1 CaCO3)
Arsenic (mg/I As)
Selenium (mg/I Se)
Cadmium (mg/I Cd)
Silver (mg/I Ag)
Lead (mg/I Pb)
Chromium (mg/I Ct)
Mercury (mg/I Pig)
Fluoride (mg/I F)
Barium (mgll Bal
Total Hyd P(mg/I)
DIRECTOR
Form No. PHL-1
Field No.' ~0 !
Date: ~/¢~/~: 2.-
Time: ~
Col. By: ~
Name not initials)
ba,e ~eceived in Lab
Public Water
Private Water ~/'
· '% Other
Date Completed
Ex a mine~d By
SUFFOLK COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES
PUBLIC HEALTH LABORATORY
CHEMICAL EXAMINATION OF WATER
Location
Point of Collection
Owner or
District
Rema~s:
Partial
Free Ammonia
Nitrites +
Nitrate; (mg~ N)
MBAS (m9/I)
S~c. Cond.
~mhos/cm
Sulfates (mg~ SO4)
Iron ~mg/I FE)
Man~nese (mg/I Mn)
N~tr~tes (mg/I N)
Complete
T.Hardness (rog/1 CaCO
T. Alkalinity (mg/I CaCO
Ca Hardness (mg/I CaCO
Mg Hardness(mD/1 CaCO
Free CO2 (Nomagraph)
Turbidity (Units)
Color (Units)
Cadmium (mg/I Cd)
Silver (mg/I Ag)
Lead (mg/I Pb)
Hexavalent
Chromium
Cyanide (mg/I CN)
Fluoride (rog/1 F)
DIRECTOR
Resample []
C.O.D. (mg/I)
T. Solids (rog/I) - 180" C
D, Solids (mg/I) - 180°C
S. Solids (rog/l) - 180"C
B.O.D. (mg/I)
I! _//
orm No. PHL I
Field No. ~0/ , public Water
Date ~/~/~ private Water
~ime Other
Col. By /f~ Date Complete~
[Name not Initials) ExaMined By ,,
SUFFOLK CO~T¥ DEPARTM~SNT OF MEA~TH SE~JCES
DIVISION OF FIEDICAL LEG~kL INV~STJSATIONS ~ FORENSIC SCIENCES
PUBLIC HEALTH L~BOP. ATORY
TP~CE ORG~kNIC A3~ALYS1S OF WATER
Point of collection
Compound
ppb
25O
305 Methylene Chloride ............
290 Bromochloromethane ............ I-- 251
323 ~ 254
1,1Dichlor~thane ............
309 Trane Dich]oroethylene ........ ~___ 252
300 Chloroform.' ................... i-~ 253
324 1,2 DJchloroethane ........... .~2~255
321 1,1,1 Trichloroethane..>... 58'
30~ Carbon ~etrachloride .......... ~ ~ 259
294 1Bromo-2-Ch]oroethane ........ 257
405 1,2 Dichloropropane ........... __266
310 1,1,2 Tr~chloroethylene .......
267
303 Chlorodibromomethane ~
.......... 268
293 1,2 Dibzomoethane ............. 265
420
3~1
311
3O8
320
295
307
302
2-Sromo-l-Chloropropane ....... 415
Bromoform ..................... ~ ~ ~12
Tetrachloroethylene .....
Ci~-DichloroethTlene ..........
Freon 113 ..... -__~ 406
Dibromomethane ................ 322
1,1 Dichloroethylene ......... I 409
BromoDichloromet~ne .......... I~!~
1,3 Pichloropropane .......... 1~295
Cie ~chloroDropene..
Compound ppb
~en=ene .............. .......-.-- '- '*'~-
Toluene..
o-Xy]ene.
m-Xy] erie .........................
p-Xy] eme ........................
X) leoe~' {S) ........
Ch] or oben zene .....
Ethylbenzene ......
Bromobenzene ....................
o-Ch!orotoluene ................. __
m-Chlorotcluene .................
p-Chlorotoluen8 .................
chlorotoluzne (s) ...............
m-D~ chlorobenzene ...............
o-Dichlorobenzene ............... ':7
p-Dichlorobenzene ............... __
,2,4 Trin,e~hylbenzene .......... __
,3,5, Trimethylbenzene ....
2,3 D~cnloropropene ............. __
1,1,2 Tr~chloroethane ........... __
1,1,1,2 9etr~ch!orethane ........ __
1,2,2.3 Tetrachlor~ropane .......
£-?et rach]o~octhane .............
],1,1,2 Tctr,.~c~]oropropane ......
Lab No. P-
F~e~d No.
(51) Date
Time
Col. By
- ~ Rec'd in Lab
~/ Public Water
~/~ / ;-z-- Private Water
~ Other
/~_~.~ ? Date Completed >'
SUFFOLK COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES
DIVISION OF MEDICAL LEGAL INVESTIGATIONS & FORENSIC
'PUBLIC HEALTH LABORATORY
SCIENCES
PESTICIDE ANALYSIS OF WATER
(3) Last Name
(4) Street No.
(8) Community
Mailing Address
(20) Pub
(15) Distance to
(9) Street
__ Ncom ~ Priv / (14) District
Farm /~0 ft. / (13) Section
(30) Nap Coordinates / / / (16) Block
(3]) Well Depth ,t~O ft. / (17) Lot
(57) Resample? Yes Ke~ ~ No __ / (1) Data Base No.
COMPOUND
PPB /
MG/L
(222)
(425)
(426)
(224)
(427)
(429)
(430)
(431)
Aldicarb .............
Aldicarb Sulfoxide ...
Aldicarb Sulfone .....
Carbofuran ...........
3-Hydroxycargofuran ..
Oxamyl ...............
Carbaryl .............
Methomyl .............
Metham ...............
~ ?B) Nitrate
/
PUBLIC }{EARING
SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD
NOVE~IBER 9, 1982
8:00 P.~.
IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATION OF NICHOLAS SCHICK FOR A CHANGE OF
ZONE FROM "A" RESIDENTIAL AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRICT TO "H-i" GENERAL
MULTIPLE RESIDENCE DISTRICT ON CERTAIN PROPERTY AT ORIENT, NEW YORK.
Present: Councilman John J. Nickles
Councilman Lawrence Murdock, Jr.
Councilman Francis J. Murphy (Deputy Supervisor)
Councilman Joseph L. Townsend, Jr.
Justice Raymond W. Edwards
Town Clerk Judith T. Terry
Town Attorney Robert W. Tasker
Absent: Supervisor William R. Pell, III
COUNCIL~.IAN I[UiIPtIY: This is a public hearing concerning a Change
of Zone application of Nicholas Schick at Orient. I'd like to ask
Councilman Larry Murdock to read it.
COUNCILMAN MURDOCK: "Pursuant to Section 265 of the Town Law and
requirements of the Building Zone Ordinance of the Town of Southold,
Suffolk County, New York, public hearing will be held by the Southold
Town Board at the Southold Town Hall, Main Road, Southold, New York,
in said Town on the 9th day of November, 1982, at 8:00 o'clock P.M.
on the following proposal by Nicholas Schick to amend the Building
Zone Ordinance (including the Building Zone Maps) of the Town of
Southold, Suffolk County, New York. By chaning from "A" Residential
and Agricultural District to "M-l" General Multiple Residence District
the property of Nicholas Schick situated at Orient, New York, and more
particularly bounded and described as follows: BEGINNING at a point on
the ordinary high water line of Long Island Sound, where the same is
intersected by the easterly line of Lot No. 6 of the subdivision known
as "Lands End", Suffolk County File No. 5909; Running thence along said
ordinary high water line of Long Island Sound the following thirteen
(13) courses and distances: (1) South 40° 25' 36" East 42.64 feet; (2)
South 50° 36' 45" East 102.37 feet; (3) South 62° 11' 38" East 168.23
feet; (4) South 73° 47' 4~" East 189 feet; (5) South 68° 03' 04" East
137.28 feet; (6) South 72° 19' 46" East 598.52 feet; (7) South 78°
36' 11" East 126.86 feet; (8) South 83° ,i4' 17" East 123.06 feet;
(9) South 89° 11' 29" East 378.47 feet; (10) South 86° 53' 58" East
129.56 feet; (11) North 86° 09' 54" East 133.10 feet:; (12) North 81° 06'
07" East 340.80 feet; (13) North 77° 20' 09" East 140.88 feet to land
of The United States of America; Running thence along said land of The
United States of America, South 22° 00' 00" East 136.57 feet to a point
on the ordinary high water line of Gardiner's Bay; Running thence along
said ordinary high water line of Gardiner's Bay the following three (3)
courses and distances: (1) South 62° 45' 00" West 47.25 feet; (2)
South 59° 43' 27" West 389.03 feet; (3) South 56° 27' 16" West 191.61
feet to land now or formerly of James T. Hughes; Running thence along
said land now er formerly of Hughes, the following three (3) courses
Page 2 - Public Hen_ina - Nicholas Schick Chance of Zone
and distances: (1) North 36° 06' 50" West 233.06 feet to a monument;
(2) South 53° 53' 10" West 100.00 feet to a monument; (3) South 36°
06' 50" East 228.57 feet to a point on the ordinary high water line
of Gardiner's Bay; Running thence along said ordinary high water line
the £ollowing nine (9) courses and distances: (1) South 56° 27' 16"
West 78.11 feet; (2) South 56° 36' 40" West 387.48 feet; (3) South
53° 09' 01" West 260.15 feet; (4) South 49° 20' 18" West 125.70 feeL;
(5) South 56° 01' 15" West 140.02 feet; (6) South 46° 25' 28" West
88.13 feet; (7) South 53° 40' 50" West 75.92 feet; (8) South 63° 18'
18" West 209.88 feet; (9) South 59° 05' 29" West 108.09 feet to land
now or formerly of George E. Latham, Jr.; Running thence along said
land now or formerly of Latham, North 33° 40' 00" West 159.09 :feet to
a monument and other land now or formerly of Latham; Running thence
along said other land of Latham North 2° 03' 40" East 200.20 feet to
a pipe and other land of Latham; Running thence along said other land
of La,ham the following two (2) courses and distances: (1) North 2°
03' 40" East 534.19 feet to a monument; (2) South 76° 11' 20" West
343.60 :feet to a monument and land now or formerly of William G.
Wysocki; Running thence along said land now or formerly of Wysocki,
South 74° 45' 40" West 203.85 feet to a monument and land now or
formerly o£ The Long Island Lighting Company; Running thence along
said land sow or formerly of The Long Island Lighting Company, South
78° 11' 40" West ]00.00 feet to a monument at the easterly line of
land of C.S.C. Craneport, Inc.; Running thence along said land of
C.S.C. Craneport, Inc. the following two (2) courses and distances:
(1) North 8° 04' 40" West 75.31 feet; (2) Nortt~ 89° 25' 30" West
210.73 feet to the westerly line of Lot No. 11 of the subdivision
known as "Lands End"; Running thence along said lot North 0° 57'
30" East 142.12 feet to the southerly line of Lot No. 10 of the
subdivision known as "Lands End"; Running thence along the southerly
line of said Lot No. 10 North 82° 48' 10" East 171.08 feet to a point;
Running thence still along said Lot No. 10 and along Lots Nos. 9,
7 and 6 of said subdivision known as "Lands End", North 1° 21' 30"
Eas~ 1004.08 feet to the ordinary high water line of Long Island
Sound at the point or place of beginning. Any person desiring to
be heard on the above proposed amendment should appear at the time
and place above so specified. Dated: October 19, 1982. By Order
of the Southold Town Board, Judith T. Terry, Town Clerk."
I have an affidavit by Patricia Wood on behalf of the Long Island
Traveler-Watchman testifying to the publication of the notice in the
Long Island Traveler-Watchman, and I have an affidavit from Karen Jean
Rysko on behalf of the Suffolk Times in Greenport testifying to the
publication. I have an affidavit from the Town Clerk saying that the
xtem was published on the Town Clerk's Bulletin Board.
I have a letter from the Suffolk County Department of Planning
addressed to Mrs. Judith T. Terry, Town Clerk. "Dear l~rs. Terry:
Pursuant to the requirements of Sections 1323 to 1332 of ~he Suffolk
County Charter, the Suffolk County Planning Commission on October 13,
1982 reviewed the above captioned application and after due study and
deliberation Resolved to disapprove it because of the following: 1.
The contemplated density of development appears excessive considering
the unique physical characteristics of the premises; 2. It appears
injurious to the integrity of the limited underground water resources
in the locale; 3. Environmental constraints preclude reasonable
development under existing zoning; 4. It is inconsistent with the
Long Island 20g Water Quality Management Plan and subsequent related
Page 3 Public Hea. ing- Nicholas Schick Change of Zone
studies of the Suffolk County Department of Health Services which
indicate severe water supply limitations in the locale; 5. It is
inconsistent, with the Long Island regional element of the N.Y.S.
Coastal Zone Management Plan which designates this area for open
space and recreational use; and 6. It is inconsistent with the
Town of Southold Development Plan which designates this area for
agricultural-single family residence development. Very truly yours,
Lee E. Koppelman, Director of Planning."
I have a letter from the Planning Board of the Town of Southold
to the Southold Town Board: "Re: Orient Point Property (Nicholas
Schick) Change of Zone. Gentlemen: The following action was taken
by the Southold Town Planning Board on Monday, August 2, 1982.
Resolved that the Southold Town Planning Board recon~end approval
on tile application of Nicholas Schick for a change of zone from "A"
Residential and Agricultural District to "H-I" General Multiple
Residence District on certain property at Orient, New York. This
resolution was unanimously adopted. Very truly yours, Henry E.
Raynor, Jr., Chairman."
COUNCIL~{AN MURPHY: Thank you, Larry. At this time I would like
to ask any people here who would like to speak in favor of this
proposed change to please step forward. Abigail Wickham.
ABIGAIL A. WICKHAM, Attorney for the applicant: Mr. Deputy Super-
visor, Members of the Town Board, ladies and gentlemen. My client
has applied for a rezoning of a 46 acre parcel at Orient Point, New
York from "A" Residential and Agricultural[ to "M-I", in order to
use the property in conjunction with an adjoining "H-I" parcel of
two acres as a condominium-conference center. There are several
areas to be covered in our presentation, i.e. the reasons for the
rezoning, the planning justifications, the traffic impact, and
the water and sewer analysis. I have invited Mr. George Buchanan,
of Buchanan and Weintraub, the architects on the project, Mr. Peter
Wolf, a planning expert, and Mr. Benedict Barkan, a traffic engineer-
lng expert, to testify tonight in support of the application. Our
engineers, Henderson and Bodwell, have met today in Albany to
straighten out some technical questions raised by the Board of Health,
and will be unable to present their report tonight. However, ~Ir.
Bodwell advised me by telephone today that the discussions in Albany
today were positive and that he responded to most of the technical
issues, which will be addressed in a supplemental report. I am
prepared to proceed with the other aspects of the presentation, and
would like to request a recess of the hearing for the presentation
of tile engineering report by Henderson and Bodwell, as well as for
the submission of a written statement by Peter Wolf on his testimony
this evening, and a draft of the proposed covenants and restrictions
Mr. Schick intends to place on the property. If possible, we would
like to request that portion of the hearing be adjourned to your
next evening meeting of December 7th. I don't know if you want to
take that up now or---
COUNCIL~{AN MURPHY: We']l reserve decision.
biS. WlCKHAM: In order to address the rezoning reasons, I would like
to briefly describe the overall project proposal. I have for you
a copy of the Southold Town Zoning Map which is colored to show the
Page 4 - Public Hea~,ng - Nicholas Schick Chan~ of Zone
parcel in question in blue, the nearby Inn property, business prop-
erty, park property and remainder in "A" zone. And I would like to
,just submit that. It's not very big for the people in the audience,
but it just will give you a point of reference as we go through. If
I may introduce that as an Exhibit and maybe pass a few around up
here.
(Exhibit I Southold Town Zoning lIap, Orient Point Area.)
MS. WICKHAM: While site plan details are not generally appropriate
until a rezoning is ~n place, we fee] that the scope of the project
is an integral concept to this rezoning idea and I'd like to briefly
outline the salient features for the record. As the first witness,
I would like to call Mr. George Buchanan.
COUNCIL~IAN I~URPHY: George, will you raise your right hand. Do
swear that the testimony that you are about to give will be the
whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
you
MR. GEORGE BUCHANAN, Buchanan g Weintraub, architects: I do.
liS. WICKHAM: Would you please give the Board your name and address
and qualifications?
MR. BUCHANAN: My name is George Buchanan and I'm a partner in the
firm of Buchanan ~ Weintraub Architects, with offices at 730 lIain
Street in Branford, Connecticut and offices in l~anhattan as well.
I'm a registered architect in the State of New York and I'm also a
teacher on the staff of the Architecture School at Yale University.
MS. WICKHAM: Have you been employed by Mr. Schick to design the
Orient Point project?
~R. BUCHANAN: Yes.
biS. WICKHAM: I understand there
firm which have been submitted to
brie£1y identify them.
is a series of renditions by your
the Town Board. Could you very
MR. BUCHANAN: This a group of drawings which are being submitted
in quadruplicate to the Town Board. This is the drawing that
describes in detail--this is the site plan of our proposed develop-
ment for the Orient Point Site which I would just like to review
briefly with you. The site is indicated in the colored portion
here. This is the ferry dock coming up to the highway and out
towards Orient. The development consists of 120 units of resort
condominiums that are located in clusters along Long Island Sound
and Gardiners Bay, as well as an additional 30 units--condominium
units that are related to the relocated, renovated and reconstructed
Orient Point Inn, which will provide the focus for this development.
The Inn being reused as a restaurant, lounge and conference facilities
in off season. Conference facilities which would use these flanking
condominium units, the 30 units, as part of the conference during the
spring and fall. The Inn has been relocated because since it was
originally built, the land around it has been developed so that it is
a small parcel of land and really uncapable of expansion or providing
P;~ge 5 - Pubilic Hea~ing - Nicholas Schick Change of Zone
sufficient parking and here it recaptures the prominen5 position
that it had 100 to 200 years ago when it was really the sole build-
ing this par5 of the site. The other faci]ities on the site include
recreation facilities for the development itself, a small swimming
pool, club house and tennis courts and key to the development are
the leaving of large portions of open space, primarily that entire
area of land, which exception of the hotel space, facing on Gardiners
Bay between the beach itself and the existing right-of-way where the
trees and the telephone poles are visably located. The units, as
you can see from one of our other exhibits, and this is drawing that
people have see up on the site of the Inn. One can also start to
see a little bit of some of the flanking units that would have the
suites that are part of the Inn. The style of the houses, which are
still in the development for these clusters takes as its origin the
style of the houses primarily out in Orient itself, of that kind of
turn of the century.
MS. WICKHAM: About how many buildings do you propose?
BUCHANAN: Approximately 20 buildings on the site, containing
multipie units.
MS. WICKHAS!: Can you given an idea of about the average square
footage of the units?
MR. BUCHANAN: The square footage of the units will vary from between
1200 square feet per unit up to maximum of 1500 and maybe a little
bit more.
MS. WICKHAM: How does that size compare with your average single
family residence?
MR. BUCHANAN: Well, ~verage single family homes are always larger.
liS. WICKHAM: Do you have an estimate of the cost of moving and
restoring the Inn?
MR. BUCHANAN: We estimate that the Inn itself will cost somewhere
in the range of a million dollars to move and restore, including
the grounds, and that cost is one of the determinates for the number
of units on the site that has to be amortized over the number of
units of resort housing that we have.
liS. WICKHAM: Would this be feasible with a single family development?
MR. BUCHANAN: No, it would not be feasible, it wouldn't be sufficient
in any form.
MS. ~VICKHAM: I'd like to ask that the drawings that have been
presented, which the Board already has, be introduced as the second
Exhibit.
(Exhibit II 8 drawings of the proposed condominium-conference center.)
MS. WICKHA~!: I do not have any further questions for l{r. Buchanan
at this time. I would now like to outline the considerations raised
by the Comprehensive Plan of the Town of Southold, primarily by
Page 6 Pubic Hearing - Nicholas Schick Chang~ of Zone
reference to the study of Raymond and May Associates of 1967. Since
my copy is on loan from the Mattituck Library and is due back in
two weeks, I've made a copy of Pages 1, 2, 3, 7, 22 and 23, to which
I will be referring for introduction into the record, rather than
the entire volume if that is acceptable. The introduction to the
study on page 1 states, quote: "the essence of any planning program
is to determine the conditions which have influenced a community's
growth and development and to evolve goals and development policies
appropriate to deal with these conditions." In his presentation, ~Ir.
Wolf will address some of these conditions and their relation to this
application, but first let me review the primarily specific policy
considerations for zoning set forth in the Raymond and May report at
pages 2 and 3, and there are eight of them. 1. The first objective
is to preserve agriculture. This property has been used as farmland,
for several types of vegetable crops and now a rye cover. However,
it does not have an irrigation system. Even the present "A" zoning
would not protect an agricultural operation, since the spectacular
waterfront position will surely result in some type of housing
construction, and the "M-i" zone maximizes the shorefront use, which
is one of Southold Town's prime assets. The parcel is also cut off
by single family residential developments to the west and business
zoning to the southwest. Thus, the parcel's viability for agriculture
on a long term basis is small. 2. "Major residential development"
is to be encouraged south of Route 25 and on a strip along Long Island
Sound. Water is the primary concern of this section. Obviously, the
word "major" residential development doesn't preclude other locations,
and the unique position of this parcel, at the terminus of Route 25,
on Long Island Sound and Gardiners Bay, makes it ultimately suited for
"M-I" zoning. The water issue will be discussed at the engineering
section of the presentation. 3. The third consideration is wetland
preservation, and there are no grass marshes located on the property.
The average elevation is about 12 to 16 feet. 4. The fourth consider-
ation is retail development, which has limited application to this
project in that some retail services, such as a restaurant/lounge and
other amenities would be furnished at the Inn/Conference Center. This
is retail zoned business property in close proximity to this site.
5. The fifth consideration, industrial development, is not applicable
to this presentation. The sixth concern is open space consideration.
This has been maximized in this project both inland and along the Bay,
and moreover, although the property could now be used for approx-
imately 40 homes of any design and of a large size, this project will
contain far fewer buildings than a single family development and will
cluster them to provide maximum open space. Number seven, trans-
portation and traffic will be discussed by Mr. Barken. Number eight,
capital improvements are inapplicable. However, I might mention that
the project is in close proximity to a large State Park, a restaurant,
marina, ferry link to Connecticut, and a small airstrip. At pages 22
and 2~ of the Raymond and ~{ay report, the trend for increased demand
for resort facilities was recognized. They recommend "limited
extension of resort areas containing such uses as motels, restaurants,
hostels and ~narinas." While specific areas are recommended, Orient
Point is certainly suitable for, and was at one time, resort-hotel
site. I would like to mention that the primary use, residential, is
the same as the present zoning, with the addition of the Inn to be
restored to a position of prominence as it once enjoyed. The main
difference then, is density. In terms of people density, water and
Page 7 - Public Hearing - Nicholas Schick Change of Zone
sewer are the key elements, and this will be addressed by Mr.
Bodwell in the engineering. Mr. Schick has decided to limit the
project to 150 dwelling units, although the "M-i" zoning would
permit approximately 225 units. 150 was arrived at as the number
of units necessary to financially justify the project, including
the Inn restoration and the water system. In terms of building
density, the visual impact will be minimized by the series oi
attached units, containing less square footage than most single-
family homes. The question has arisen in many peoples' minds--
they're all here tonight--why should this request be granted? We
maintain (a) that the project will supply needed resort housing
and a conference center to boost our important tourist industry
and business community in Southold Town over an extended season.
(b) The project will maintain open space, and it will provide new
public access to Orient Point for visitors to the Inn/Conference
Center, to the fishing areas on the point, and to the services of
project, including the restaurant and tennis courts. (c) The
project will attempt to preserve the historic architectural
integrity of Orient, which has been ignored by many of the newer
single family residences. (d) The project will have minimal impact
upon municipal services and traffic, and will not adversely affect
Orient's fragile water supply, which I am going to leave to be
demonstrated by the experts. (e) Since the developmen~ of the property
even under current zoning is enevitable, we ~hink the proposal is
vastly superior to single family residences in terms of building
density, public access, open space, and in bolstering tourism,
business and employment opportunities, and tax revenues. There is
a specific section in the Comprehensive Plan governing multiple
residences at page 7. It is said to be appropriate when the need
and demand develop, and we think they have. It is suggested that
the multiple residential areas be located in the immediate vicinity
of retail shopping centers. This is certainly more of a concern for
year-round residents than in this project where the residents will
likely be seasonal and weekenders. However, the need for services
nevertheless does exist and we think they can be met in several
ways - by the amenities to be provided at the Inn, by the services
available at the nearby business district, which could be more
fully developed, and by the business communities of Orient, East
Marion and Greenport, which are sure to benefit. On this part o~'
the Island, some fravel is necessary for any person. While the
services in my home and business communities of Cutchogue and
Matt~[uck are expanding, I must often travel to Greenport or
River'head in order to obtain some items, even though I prefer to
shop locally. I think this is a characteristic of our Town and
fortunately for this project, it will be less of an imposition
than it is for us year-round residents. As to the recommendations
of the Suffolk County Planning Commission, I believe that reasons
1, 5 and 6 have been addressed above and will also be answered by
our planner; and reasons 2, 3 and 4 will be answered by the engineers.
The primary concern was water and that we believe we have a handle
on. Finally, the Town of Southold does not contain adequate provision
for "M-i" facilities, particularly those which are resort-oriented.
There are no undeveloped Sound-front sites except a small "M-I" area
near the nursing home and an "M" light parcel at Brecknock Hall with
less waterfront than this parcel. The only available Bay-front
property is at Cleaves Point, which is partially developed, but is
Page 8 Public Hea~'ing - Nicholas Schick Change of Zone
of limited capacity, and most important, this is the only area in
Southold where a concept like this could be fully realized.- I'd
like to turn the meeting now over to our planner, Mr. Peter Wolf
as our next witness.
(Exhibit III - Pages 1, 2, 3, 7, 22, 23 of Comprehensive Plan,
Town of Southo]d, New York, Raymond & May Associates 1967.)
COUNCILMAN MURPHY: Peter, will you raise your right hand. Do you
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the whole
truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
MR. PETER WOLF, Peter Wolf Associates, Land Planning and Land
Investment Management: I do.
MS. WICKRAM: Would you like to start by giving your name, address
and qualifications, please?
[IR. WOLF:
Associates,
with offices in New York City and in East Hampton. I am, in
addition, a full member of the American Institute of Certified
Planners. I have been chairman, for the past ten years, of the
Institute for Architecture and Urban Studies in New York City,
which is a non-profit educational research and development
corporation registered in the State of New York. I'm also a
professor of planning and teaching architects at Cooper Union
New York City. In addition I'm the author of several books,
particularly focused on land uses and land planning in this
country. One called The Future of the City, and the other Land
in America. Land in America having been published just last
year. I will submit to you here a more complete biographical
resume and a firm brochure for your records.
My name is Peter Wolf, I'm principle of Peter Wolf
a land planning and land investment m~nagement firm
(Exhibit IV(a) Firm brochure of Peter Wolf Associates, Land
Planning & Land Investment Management.)
(Exhibit V(b) - Resume of Peter Wolf, A.I.C.P.)
~R. WOLF: In addition, I intend, following this evening, to submit
a written copy of the statement that I'm about to make. I've been
asked as a professional planner and land investment management
consultant to comment on two particular aspects with respect to the
proposed Orient Point project. These are: Need and demand for the
proposed project. First let me address the question of need. In
order to address this question af the outset, I would like to comment
on particular areas of impact and benefit which can reasonably be
expected as a consequence of the proposed development. The first of
these is related to preserving and indeed returning to the proposed
site area a portion of its historical heritage. Clearly through
restoration of fhe Orient Point Inn, a major landmark and gateway
symbol for the region itself, as a fine, commanding welcome to New
York State, is reestablished. An immediate next consequence of both
the restoration of the Inn and the concommitant proposed additional
development of its immediate area as a top quality residential resort
and conference center will surely be substantial economic benefit.
Page 9 - Public Hea~,ng - Nicholas Schick Chan~z of Zone
Not only will a sizeable number of temporary construction and
construction related jobs be created, but also on an ongoing
operational basis it is estimated that 50 to 60 regular, new,
full-lime seasonal .jobs will become available to area residents
and about half that many on a year-round basis, and we'll submiT,
with my written report, a table documenting how we've arrived at
those jobs. Construction costs alone at the project are estimated
in excess of $13 million dollars with total development costs ex-
pected to reach over $20 million. Sales of materials and services
required to make this project happen, alone, will produce a very
substantial economic boost to myriad organizations, businesses and
individuals in the area. Once the project is completed and occupied,
an ongoing stream of retail, professional, and maintenance services
will be required. Certainly the impacts of new demand for retail
sales, and all forms of services related to people's individual and
real property needs will be experienced primarily along the eastern
portion of the North Fork. Real estate and market observes target
substantial positive impact throughout Southold Town. Because of
~be conference aspect of the proposed project, and the well designed,
energy efficient housing, ir is expected that people will be attracted
to the area not just duing the traditional summer season of two or
three months, but for a much longer season, and indeed to some extent
throughout the year. This expectation will lengthen out the curve of
positive economic impact across many more months than the sharp peak
of eight to twelve weeks so long experienced in the area, only to be
followed by a predictable and precipitious downturn in the important
tourist and seasonal housing industry of the North Fork. The local
municipal financial balance sheet in Southold Town, Orient Hamlet and
the Oyster Ponds School District will surely come out big winners as
a consequence of the proposed development at Orient Point. Sales
tax share will expand, but more important, a captive real property
asset whose market value, as I've already mentioned, including land,
is likely to exceed $20 million dollars in the first year following
completion, is projected to throw off real property tax revenue based
on current rates, in an annual amount in excess of $250~000.00 per
annum. Based on the 1982 Southold Town budget of approximately $17
million, this represents approximately a 15% increase in real property
tax revenues. What is all the more significant is to recognize that
there will be almost no call on these revenues for expenditures as
a consequence of the project. Few, 5f any, school children are
expected re inhabit this proposed development. Most of the residents
are expected to be seasonal, second home occupants, who will therefore
make few, if any, demands on municipal services of any kind. Confer-
ence guests will obviously have an opportunity to spend money, but
none to demand public expenditures on their behalf. Southold Town
Police, though some monitoring may be required of them at the very
entrance to the project, are likely not to have to expand services
significantly. Another substantial benefit to the North Fork, east
of Greenport, will be the provision of new, quality housing and the
satisfaction oI demand for new housing on a contained and well
designed site rather than sprawled throughout open spaces which
might themselves be more appropriately continually devoted to
farming or other significant uses. A concentration of facilities--
recreation, housing and conference--at Orient Poin~ will therefore
serve to liberate other parcels of land in the same marker area
from development and redevelopment pressure. Now let us consider
Page 10 - Public IteL. ring - Nicholas Schick Chat.ge of Zone
the site itself for a moment, and its most appropriate use. While
the roughly 48 acre site has been used in the past for farming, this
use encounters limitations, as Gall Wickham has already described.
There are no on-site agricultural buildings and, more important, no
irrigation system exists there and one seems unlikely to be feasible.
Yet with relatively flat surface characteristics, and surrounded by
expansi~,e bodies of water on three sides, this is clearly a most
attractive spot for housing. Indeed, in discussions with real estate
market experts all along the North Fork, this particular site has
been consistently characterized as a prime residential site, in fact
as one, and I'm quoting here, "of the very best sites for housing
and related development on all of Long Island." Furthermore though
we rarely think in these terms, this particular field and this
particular point of ]and is a prominent gateway to New York State
and ~o Long Island. Rather than enter past a dilapidated Inn crumbling
in unsightly disrepair, sitting adjacent to a field, is it not more
desirable to offer a handsome renovated historic structure and a
destination that itself will attract and serve the needs of the
people? The site is also being carefully thought of and planned to
create positive community amenities for existing residents of the
North Fork. A definite housing alternative becomes available to a
local[ home owner who prefers the convenience in a condominium
community. A good quality year-round restaurant is project, meeting
rooms and associated services for commercial, soci~l and public
gatherings will be available. Subject to availability, a new tennis
center at the western edge of the site will offer excellent seasonal
facilities. Access to the Point will be continued for fishing
purpeses and while we seldom think of such things when contemplating
a flat field bare of structures, as it is now, it would be possible
in a conventional residential subdivision of this property to create
a grid of streets, private lots, hedges and fences which would pre-
clude the existence of and the enjoyment of open space on this site.
Whereas, in the proposed approach, as George Buchanan pointed out
briefly, significant areas along the waterfront and at the site
inferior will remain open as perpetual, uninvaded open space.
Finally, the unsightly power line which now runs the length of the
property,nearly to the Point will, if possible, be buried under
ground.
Let me now say a few words about the question of demal~d for the
kind of conference-recreational-residential project being proposed.
While we all here tonight are thinking about this particular parcel
of land, and this particular project, it is well to place it in
another context, one in which it also properly helongs. This is
the context of new trends and new types of demand for housing and
expecially recreational second home housing in this country. Let
me for a moment recall for you certain ways in which the underlying
characteristics of the American population is now changing. You
will see that these are pertinent. 1. We are becoming a nation of
an increasingly high proportion of older people and older households.
Increased life expectancies and decreased fertility rates have con-
tributed to a total reversal of the situation just forty years ago
when it was the younger generations which were expanding in number.
Now the population in the age range of 50 years old and over is a
real growth segment, exerting demand for desirable, appropriate
accomodations. In fact, just yesterday the Census Bureau issued its
latest report which "forsees a much larger number of elderly people
than the bureau anticipated in its last population projections just
Page i1 - Public HL ring - Nicholas Schick Cha..de of Zone
five years ago." Point 2. The other major area of growth in demand
:for housing of all types in this country is small households. Typically
the households now being formed, of which half or more consist of only
one or two people, seek smaller quarters than years ago; many want ail
apartment or a condominium unit, and in addition they seek good,
available, convenient recreation facilities as nearby as possible.
Point 3. The average citizen is seeking less land, not more. As
taxes, and operatiag expenses rise, and as assistance with garden,
lawn and maintenance becomes ]ess and less available. In addition,
increasing numbers of second home owners find that they have less
time--or are willing to devote less time--to household and ground
care and maintenance. In recreation communities this is all the more
true, and is illustrated by the fact that a targer and larger proportion
of all recreation housing starts in the past five years in this country
have been for apartments, cooperatives and condominium units. 4. In-
creased leisure time, increased incomes and increased freedom from
jobs, especially for older people, is leading to a dispersal of second
home and full time residences into areas remote from the cities. For
example, in a 1972 poll of urban dwellers by the President's Commission
on Population Growth and the American Future it was found that 34~ of
a wide sampte of Americans surveyed expressed a preference to live in
the open countryside rather than within a small town, city or suburb.
And indeed, in the past ten years, as is now known from the 1980 census,
just fully reported, it is the areas 50 to 100 miles and further from
the cities that are growing at the fastest pace all across America,
indeed they are growing at about ~wice the rate of the cities and
suburbs. Calvin Beale, chief demographer of the U. S. Department of
Agriculture, and one of the most perceptive and experienced demographers
in this country, poi~ted out recently and with absolute justification
as follews: "The renewed growth of population in nonmetropolitan
communities vies with the continued ]ow level of the birth rate as
the most significant demographic fact in the United States today."
5. For second homes and recreation oriented housing the most sought
out locations of all are the limited number of places in American
which possess fine scenic amenities such as waterfront views together
with reasonably reliable access especially ~o roads connected to a
regional highway network. In addition, when rail and bus service is
also available, the attraction and the demand expands. Against this
national background, it becomes easier to understand why a number of
cluster type second home and recreational oriented projects have
appeared or have been proposed in recent years along the North Fork,
as they have been throughout most of the other sought out rural resort
and recreational oriented communities across this country. But it is
also easier, I hope, to understand why these proposals are ~n fact
responsive to proven demand, to proven--it relatively new--patterns
of living that users of these facilities seek. And located as it is,
literally perched in a tantilizing and extraordinarily visible manner
.just off shore from the densest, most highly congested and in many
ways most productive centers of population in the United States, that
is the northeast corridor, it takes no imagination whatsoever to
envision specific demand and good sales results for the 150 units
projected for this site. Now then, what about specific demand at the
site and project feasibility? The very few better quality condominium
projects in the immediate area have met with relatively good sales
success even during the housing slump and depressed economic conditions
whxch have prevailed nationally over the last 12 to 18 months. Now
it appears that conditions are improving. Interest rates are down
Page 12 - Public H~_,ring - Nicholas Schick Chat.ge of Zone
substantially and still projected to fall further. The underlying
economy seems to be stirring, and if Wall Street and the securities
markets are indeed reliable leading indicators, then economic con-
ditions should be much better a year or two hence, the period during
which demand for this project would be matched by its availability.
And informed market experts throughout Southold Town do indeed project
strong demand for the facilities offered as proposed for this site.
To review the current market, several comparable condominium projects
in the site area were analyzed with respect to demand. At Sea Breeze
Village, on Route 27 in Greenport as you all know, ail units sold out
quickly and only one is now available for resale. This well received
project offers excellent water views, is attractively situated, and
well designed. However, this is purely a residential clustering of
our buildings, each containing four units. Considering tile very
substantial additional amenities to be offered at Orient Point, the
projected unit values there--which are somewhat higher than those at
Sea Breeze Village today--are viewed as realistic and expected to
attract a strong demand. Another nearby development known as Cleaves
Point, situated at the end of Shipyard Lane in Greenport was also
inspected and sales experience reviewed. This project faces on Orient
Harbor, but is sited across the street from the Long Island Oyster
Farm facility. While sales have not been brisk, 11 of the 14 units
already constructed are reported to be sold or are under sales contract,
and the owners believe that the entire project will sell out during the
next year or two. At Orient Point, and this is really the point,
construction quality is expected to be much higher than at Cleaves
Point; the Orient site itself is much more attractive, and substantial
site amenities will be offered. All of these facts are expected to
stimulate much stronger demand and prices at Orient than experienced
at Cleaves Point. With respect to the Conference Center element of
the Orient project, a few remarks about anticipated demand are also
in order. Recent experience at the few nearby conference centers
which mix condominium units and recreational resources have been
reviewed. Tile only two comparable developments close to the site
are Baron ' s Cove at Sag Harbor, and Gllerney' s Inn at Montauk. Guerney ' s,
as you know, has been in business for quite a long time; Baren's Cove
is in its first season. Conference Center activity, in spite of the
poor economic showing national]y, has been quite good in the past
year, even though the conference business is acknowledged to be
sensitive to the overall economy. At both Baron's Cove and at
Guerney's, meetings and conferences were found to bolster the off
season periods, especially fall and spring. At both centers, ex-
perience also shows that a conference facility capability increases
overall site demand and unit occupancy by about 25y~. Even though
competing conference facilities do now exist around mid-island, demand
for attractive conference facilities in eastern Long Island is expected
to increase as western Suffolk and Nassau Counts' companies of all types
expand and as regional service organizations and institutions proliferate.
As another part of the research effort I'w~ undertaken with respect to
need and demand for this project, I interviewed at some length several
established and knowledgable North Fork real estate specialists. Let
me share with you by way of conclusion five of their concensus obser-
vations and remarks: 1. On the North Fork demand is s~ronger for
all water related housing, much stronger than availability. 2. Many
people now seeking a second home prefer a condominium to a single
family house because of ease of maintenance, improved security, and
Page 13 - Public Ha.L£ing - Nicholas Schick Cha,.ge of Zone
available recreation and services. $. The well-to-do elderly are
a prime and somewhat neglected market. 4. Most local businesses
and services in Southold Town will benefit in some way and a positive
economic influence will be felt all along the North Fork. 5. The
convention and meeting services are likely to attract the growing
nmnber of organizations and corporations from western Suffolk, Nassau
County and even the northeast mainland, and thereby stimulate tourism
over a longer season than is commonly experienced today. Thus, in
conclusion, and after careful review of the project in terms of need
and in terms of demand all evidence indicates that the proposal is
timely and that its general conception is appropriate to the market
in which it is placed and to the specific site on which it is
proposed to be located. Substantial benefit and advantages are
expected throughout Southold Town as demand is satisfied and needs
met through the development proposed at Orient Point. Thank you.
MS. WICKHAM: Thank you. Our final witness, I'd like to ask Mr.
Barkan of Barkan and Mess Associates to make a statement on the
traffic :impact.
COUNCILMAN MURPHY: Mr. Barkan, would you raise your right hand.
Do you swear that the testimony that you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
5{R. BENEDICT G. BARKAN, Barkan and Mess Associates, Inc., Traffic
Engineers and Transportation Planners: I do.
MS. WICKHA~: Would you please address the Board as to your name,
address and qualifications.
MR. BARKAN: ~{y name is Benedict G. Barkan. I'm the President of
firm Barkan and Mess Associates located in Branford, Connecticut.
We're a firm of consulting traffic engineers and transportation
planners that was organized early in 1976. ~ly own background is:
undergraduate training in civil engineering, graduate training in
traffic engineering and transportation planning and a number of
years of experience in the field of urban planning. I'm a member
of the American Society of Civil Engineers, the American Institute
of Certified Planners, the Institute of Transportation Engineers,
among other organizations. I have been in the consulting end of
traffic engineering and transportation planning for well over 20
years, and as I said, formed my own firm with a partner six years
ago. I also have a resume of my own background and I will be happy
to leave this with you.
the
(Exhibit V(a) - Resume of Benedict G. Barkan of Barkan & Mess
Associates, Inc., Traffic Engineers and Transportation Planners.)
MR. BARKAN: I have prepared a report and I will leave copies of
the report with the Board, but I would like to run through the major
elements now. Our firm was asked to prepare a study to assess the
likely traffic impact that would result from the development of the
proposed project at Orient Point. As part of our study we did a
field inspection of the site and its environs. We observed traffic
on Route 26 at Orient Point in the vicinity of the ferry terminal
of Cross Sound Ferry Services. We obtained traffic count data from
the New York State Department of Transportation and discussed traffic
Page 14 - Public Hu_cing - Nicholas Schick ChaL. ie of Zone
conditions and accident experience with the Police Chief of the
Town of Southold. We also had discussions with transportation
planners of the New York State DOT and the Suffolk County Public
Works Department. On the basis of the proposed land uses, which
you heard described by the earlier speakers, we have estimated
and projected the site generated traffic which can be expected in
the peak season and we then took this traffic and combined it with
what we call the background traffic already on the road system and
determined adequacy of the resultant traffic operations. I will
not tell you about present conditions, we all know about them. I
won't tell you what Route 25 looks like. The report does summarize
the activities of the Cross Sound Ferry Service. It lists the
approximate frequency of service, the size of the vessels, and
also mentions briefly the growth of that service over the last
few years. There is also a discussion of the physical facilities,
their parking lot, the various lines--waiting lines for small, large,
small cars, large cars and trucks. The stand-by lane which we under-
stand and we observed occurs on the shoulder of Route 25 and while we
did not make our observations during the peak summer season we do
understand that there is a problem with regard to the stand-by line
which occasionally extends well around the bend and once in a while
to the Orient Marina Restaurant, past the Plum Island facilities.
The report also mentions the Plum Island facility, the work schedule
8:00 A.I~. to 4:30 P.M. Approximately 150 vehicles arrive in their
parking lot before 8:00 and a similar number of vehicles leave after
4:30. In other words causing two surges of traffic ol~ weekdays that
are associated with the Plum Island facility. As far as the anticipated
site traffic, as we call it, I'll go into a little more detail on that.
Due to the location and the seasonal nature of the proposed development,
the greatest traffic impact on Route 25 is expected to occur during the
summer months of July and August. This impact would result from the
three components of the proposed development, that is, the condominium
residential units, the restaurant, and the conference facilities at
the Inn, which as you heard will be operated as a conference center
primarily in the spring and fall as presently planned. Typical
condominium development, that is not resort developments, the ones
that are in metropolitan areas, exhibit sharp peaking characteristics
of traffic during the morning and evening commuter hour. Such
characteristics are not expected to prevail in this case. Instead,
the hourly traffic flow variation probably would more nearly resemble
that of a typical resort community. The traffic volumes would be low
in the morning, steadily increasing towards the noon hour, remaining
relatively stable through 6:00 or 7:00 P.M. and then dropping off
gradually in the evening hours. The guest suites in the restored Inn
are also anticipated to exhibit different traffic generating character-
istics than typical hotel units, or motel units. The planned community
wiil be relatively self-contained with a restaurant, swimming pool,
beaches, tennis courts, and other recreational facilities. Therefore,
in our opinion, off-site travel to and from the Inn by guests would
be relatively small, reducing the amount of traffic that otherwise
might be expected. The restaurant on the other hand could be expected
to be somewhat more typical in the way it generates vehicular traffic.
That is, there will be considerable activity through the lunch period,
a decline through the afternoon, and a sharp increase after 6:00 P.M.
However, even in this case the traffic gei~eration rate is expected to
be slightly lower than what would otherwise be expected and this is
Page 15 - Public H~LLring - Nicholas Schick Cha.,ge of Zone
because it is assumed that some of the restaurant patrons will be
condominium residents or Inn or guest suite residents, or perhaps
ferry passengers who--day-trippers--that might walk to the restaurant,
or possibly other patrons may arrive by car, but with the restaurant
being a secondary destination, the ferry being the primary one. Based
on this analysis, and the report goes a little further into it, the
smnmer traffic volume of traffic generated by the combined proposed
development is expected to be approximately 900 vehicle trips daily,
that is, 450 vehicles arriving and the same number leaving. During
the highest hour of such a day we expect that roughtly 10~ to 12% of
that 24 hour total, or approximately 100 vehicle trips wiil occur.
These estimates are based on statistical information compiled and
published bi' the Institute of Transportation Engineers, supplemented
by numerous studies of generally comparable land uses on file in our
office. As far as roadway adequacy is concerned, first of all Route
25 through Orient and to Orient Point is a well-designed and well-
maintained highway. In the vicinity of the site, the annual average
daily traffic, based on a 1979 count, was 1,450 vehicles daily. The
highest daily volume during theweek of the count in June 1979, was
about 2,000 vehicles. It should be recognized that the traffic volumes
on Route 25 in July and August are somewhat higher than June and there-
fore the traffic volume would be higher. Also, they have increased
somewhat since 1979. In our study we estimated that the [)resent peak
summer traffic volumes at the site, that is near the entrance to the
ferry, are in the neighborhood of 2,500, or possibly 3,000 vehicles.
Just today I received a copy of a traffic count taken in August of
this year by the New York State Department of Public Works, a count
that was not available to me when we prepared this report, this court
indicated that in fact traffic volumes have not yet grown to the level
that we project, so what I'm say is we were conservative by being on
the high side as far as the growth between '79 and '82. The newly
generated vehicle traffic, as I said before, was added to this back-
ground traffic~ and thus the combined volume would be in the order
of 3,000, plus 900 vehicle trips, or 3,900 vehicles daily. This
total should be compared to the capacity of Route 25, which is some-
where in the range of 13,000 to 17,000. The poin~ I'm making here is
that 3,900 vehicles on a roadway that can easily carry in excess of
13,000 indicates that construction of the proposed development and the
addition of 900 vehicle trips daily during the summer months would not
overload the highway. Moreover, sufficient reserve capacity exists
for further development. As far as the adequacy of the traffic
operation on Route 25 at the pier to the Cross Island Ferry Service,
Inc. is concerned, that's a separate issue. As previously mentioned
in the report, the traffic operations associated with the ferry
service are, in fact, disruptive to the normal traffic flow on Route
25. Stand-by vehicles, as I mentioned, park on the shoulder of the
highway and interfere with otherwise smooth traffic flow. The removal
of the stand-by line from the state highway would dramatically improve
traffic flow through the area. Confinement of the traffic associated
with the ferry service to the ferry company's own property would make
the overall area more invitint~ and improve the perception of Orient
Point. This entire matter, we believe, should be addressed independ-
ently of the present zone change request. Perhaps the parties concerned,
that is the Town Board of Southold, Cross Sound Ferry Service, Inc.
and the New York State Department of Transportation should hold joint
discussions and study ways to mitigate the obvious existing traffic
Pag(? 16 - Public H~ ting - Nicholas Schick Cha.,~e of Zone
problems that are associated with the ferry service.
In summary, we conclude in this study that the present flow on Route
25 is well below the capacity of that highway and the addition of an
estimated 900 daily trips due to the proposed development would not
decrease the operating efficiency or safety of Route 25. On the other
hand, the traffic operation associated with the ferry service does
need improvement. As a very minimum, parking should be restricted
alon~ Route 25 and all waiting vehicles should be required to park
on property controlled by the ferry service. Thank you. I'll be
happy to leave copies of the report with the Board.
(Exhibit V(b) Traffic Impact Study, Orxent Point Development, Town
of Southold, New York, prepared for Schick Realty International by
Barkan & Mess Associates, Inc., Novelnber, 1982.)
COUNCILMAN MURPHY: Gall, do you have anything further?
MS. WlCKHAM: I don't have anything further on this presentation
unless something comes up in response to questions. We do have a
question about the final presentation of the engineering report
and the two written items that were mentioned. Those are the only
items that I have remaining open.
COUNCILMAN MURPHY: Is there anyone in the audience, anyone present
who would like to speak in favor of this application? Former
Councilman Henry Drum.
CAPT. HENRY W. DRUM, Matfituck, New York: I would like to say that
I concur with our Planning Board in favoring this project. I look
at the alternative whereas we know the hotel, as it exists today,
is a multi-dwelling, zoned for multi-dwelling. It could be rebuilt
and occupied. Also, the 45 acres on the Point is one acre zoning.
They could put approximately 39 to 40 houses out on the Point. They
would be narrow strips, but this is permitted with out ~resent zoning.
It would not require a change of zoning. Of course you all say this
is--we all assume that there will be adequate water. This whole
project assumes that there will be adequate water, but for this reason
I feel this present proposal far surpasses the alternative that all
of us are faced with here in Southold Town and that is having the
hotel rebuilt and 39 to 40 homes in narrow strips on the point. In
summary, I favor the project as presented tonight.
COUNCILMAN ~URRHY: Thank you, Henry. Anyone else care to speak in
favor of this project? If not:, I will entertain people speaking
in opposition to it. For the convenience of everybody I wish you
would limit the amount and let everyone speak first before you get
your hand up again, and try to control it. ~7hy don't I start in
back on the left-hand side, come down, go back up, and come down
again and take comments in that order rather than everybody sticking
their hand up.
FRO~! THE AUDIENCE: You didn't limit ~hem.
COUNCIL~AN MURPHY: You can speak all night. This was a oresentation
in fairness to them. And please give your name and address. I would
like to recognize Ruth Oliva.
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