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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-10/17/2002 HEAR SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS TRANSCRIPT OF HEARINGS HELD OCTOBER 17, 2002 (Prepared by Jessica Boger) 'fresent were: Chairman Goehringer Member Tortora Member Horning Member Orlando Absent: Member Oliva PUBLIC HEARINGS: --~~ :~~~F2-;:;-;;·-ltr.2'-"--' !!O)t'L\>Sh? ~L~'LJ5J~i\1 \) ( I nEr -;·3. 2 1/ !J 'OJ . r/i ---'-'''''..,." 6:25 p.m. 4ppl.Np.S185 - R()BERT and DONNA M. M()SQUERA. Request for a Variance under Seytiool P9';:44,. lYased qn the Building Department's June 17, 2002 Notice ofDisapprovaL Applicants are propo~ing to Co:nstruct additions/alterations to an existing dwelling with less that 35' from the front lot line. an!! less than 35' from the rear lot line, at 370 Hobart Road, Southold; Parcel 62-3-6 (Tape started:> minutes late) ROBERT MOSQUERA: It would make the house look more appealing, Having the porch in the plans made the house look very choppy, CHAIRMAN: What's on the concrete slab? MIl- MOSQVERA: It's just a footing, CHARIMAN: What's the purpose of the footing? MR. MOSQUERA: Just to hold the roof. CHARlMAN: I see. It's open- MR MOSQUERA: I think we would put a small slab in. CHARIMAN: You were issued a Building Pennit for the slab? I have a Building Pennit #28103 issued on 2-22"02. MR. MOSQUERA: That's the extension on our house - 20x20_ It's from that point that we want to come out and re-do the porch, CHARIMAN: Is this an enclosed porch? MR, MOSQUERA: No. CHARIMAN: This is an open porch, What's the elevation factor off the ground? MR. MOSQUERA: 8 or 10", CHARlMAN: Is there a roof on it? MR. MOSQUERA: No_ We are reqnesting a roof. That's why we are here, Page 2 of 14, October 11,2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of $outhold CHAR1¥AN: No screen, just an open porch, Like a typical open porch that you would fm<i in an ol<ier hþuse, facing the rbad. Except ouly a small portion of is facing the road, the remaining portion is facing the rest of yom property, MR. MOSQUERA: That's right. Only 4', it can only really be 4' wide, but it's coming out the 8" past. CHARIMAN: That's whatyoll bollght the tresses for? MR. MOSQUERA: They are alxeady built. That's why they built the tresses. I didn't think it was going to be a problem with setb.acks. Like I said there is only 4' facing the street, 4' wide, but that's what I'm here for. CHARIMA;N: Let's start with Mr. Horning. Any questions for this gentleman? MEMBER BORNING: Tcl1 us. again, on the porch, YOIl had a bui!c:liJ:¡g permit, or you n~er had a building permit for it? MR. MOSQUERA: For the porch, no, I misunderstood you, for the extension, we had a permit For the porch, we didn't have a permit for. At the time! submitted it, the )3uildingDepartment told me it might be a difficulty, so we omitted it from the plart· MEMBER HORNING: Then you started building it anyway. MK MOSQUERA: No I didn't build it. MEMBER HORNING: Have you started building it at all? That's what you bought plywood for. MR. MOSQUERA: He bought tresses, but the only thing he built was an extension, which he has a building pennit for, which was issued on 2-24, which is between, just south of the house. MEMBER HORNING: It's faciug straight south. MEMBER TORTORA: So is the att¡chment, where it says "concrete slab"? MR. MOSQUERA: Right. That's the extension. Where it says "concrete slab", that's where they had the berm before. If you are looking at a survey of the property, at this point- MEMBER TORTORA: I have the survey, I'm just tryiug to figure out what you have. Where it says "concrete slab", you have a building pennit to do what on that. MR. MOSQUERA: Build the exteusion, that's already built. MEMBER HORNING: In theory, you can have your porch even with the edge of your concrete slab of your new extension. MR. MOSQUERA: When you build it (inaudible) MEMBER HORNING: Why not? MK MOSQUERA: With the proposed porch, that's what I wish to do. MEMBER HORNING: I'm asking why you need it so close to the road, or the boundary_ CHAIRMAN: I guess the question is how come it's closer to the road than the existing house? MEMBER HORNING: Correct. ______"'~ c Pagè3 of74, October 11, 2!)O2 ZBA Public nearing Transcript Town of Southold CHAIRMAN: Is that correct? MR. MOSQUERA: The existing house is 4.6'. CHAIRMAN: No. It's 7.5' to the property line. MR.MOSQUERA: O)1lybecause, aesthetically, thefto)1t, the south side of the porch is 8'. lnorderto make the (inaudible) to make the house look aesthetic, you have to make everything clean cnt. Otherwise the ftont of the house is going to be chopPed. ~~ER l!-ORNING: It looks chopped !lOW. T)J.ey are sticking it out !jniheI; than- aP)'thing else YoU have :t"Äerè. MR. MOSQUERA: lam. sticking it out. As. you C<JJ).notice, the survey shows the ather neighbotßto the no¡;th;'f me. Their porch is also sticking out. One of them is 11' rrom the road. The other 'one. sticks OUt- it's a)most equal, it's only 8." different than what is aJreadythere. MEMBER HORNING: It's a 4' increase. The other department said you want it 3 \4' rrom the road, property line, MR. MOSQUERA: Yes, 3\4'. The neighbors next door are 4_1' rrom the existing house. MEMBER HORN1NG: Through the boundaries_ MR. MOSQUERA: Right- MEMBER HORN1NG: Our boundary is 7.5' ftom the existing house. MR. MOSQUERA: It would be 3' more than wha.! the existing house is, which would be the same as the neighbors house. I don't know how big their porch is, but you have a space between the end of their property to their porch that would be identical to what mine is. The only difference is 8"_ MEMBER TORTORA: You're referring to the house to the north_ MR. MOSQUERA: That's correct. There's 4.1', mine would be 3.5'. We're talking 8". MEMBER HORN1NG: It looks like they have just a tiny Httle depth- MR. MOSQUERA: That's the width of their house. I'm not even going there_ CHAIRMAN: Let's go on here, Mr. Orlando? I'm sorry, George, are you done? MEMBER ORLANDO: Just to expand on that a Htde bit, we're assuming that your neighbors have CO's for those rront porches, we're just going to aSSunle that We don't know if they just built them- MR. MOSQUERA: Those houses have been there for at least 90 years. MEMBER ORLANDO: I just wanted to put that in there, we are assunring that they are legal ftontporches with CO's. The other thing is a standard ftont yard setback is 35' _ You're asking for over a 30' variance. MR: MOSQUERA: Front yard? MEMBER ORLANDO: Both rront and rear, 35' setbacks, you're requesting over a 30' variance. -~.---~.~-~~--~_.~.'._=~'-'-~._~~ -- - "'" Page 4 0[74. October 17.2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of Soufuold MR. MOSQUERA: I guess if you add it that way, it would show that this- what we're löoking to do is just confOrnl with what's there in the I;!eighbors. From the end of the property, there is an additional I 0-11' to the curb. Besides the 3.5'. If you look at the main house, it would be more than 10' back It is a wide road, a one-way street. MEMBER ORLANDO: It's showing 49' 5". Which way does the property slope? MR. MOSQUERA: It slopes south, away nom the main street, nom north to south, one way. MEMBER ORLANDO: No other questions. MEMBER TORTORA: Just to keep things in perspective, you're existing 2 story name is setback 7.5 and 7.9 each nom the nont property line nom the road. MR. MOSQUERA: ne existing b,ouse, yes_ MEMBER TORTORA: ne exttmsiol;! is (inandible) ITOm the road. MR. MOSQUERA: Yes. MEMBER TORTORA: Now you want to come in and be 2 % nom the road. I've been OIl this board since 1985, and the time I've been Ol;! this board, I'll be very candid with you so we won't waste any time, we have never granted a variance for anytbing 3' ITom the road. nat's forsaking the welfare of the tOWJ1. Yes whel;! houses were builtin the 1800's (inaudible) considerations there were houses that were built Ol;! the road. But certainly when you have theoptlons that you have on this property to build that porch - you have other alternatives. From a practical standpoint, 3' is the distance ITom here to there. When you come alol;!g the road, whether ìt's one-way or two-ways, ìfthe car veers off, ìt's go:ing to lit you. It's aliabìlityto the tOWJ1. The bottom line is you have plenty of other options available to you, to be able to enjoy a ITont porch, and to have it set back in line with the new extension without requiring this degree of a variance_ If the board were to irant you a variance for the porch of 15', we would still be giving you a 60% variance (inaudible) because the requirement is 35', so even if the board cOl;!sidered 15', we're still cutting it close_ I'm tryÍ11g to give you a,perspective QI;l this. We can'thelp what happened in the 1800's, and god bless them. We've seel;! places Ol;! Fisher's Island, and on the mainland, plel;!ty of places built right up to the road. You have many options available_ You have a large piece of property. You certaiuly have the optiol;! to get it off the road, not 3' ITom the road. MR. MOSQUERA: It's not 3' nom the road. It's actually 13' ITom the road_ MEMBER TORTORA: You're counting the road, and you can't count toWJ1 property. MR. MOSQUERA: The DEC already approved it, and I do have it on the plan (inaudible) the eastern section up against the street. I would like to do the porch up against the house. MEMBER TORTORA: The applicant has agreed to amend his reqnest. The request would be for a 15' setback to run parallel with the existing extension on Hobart Lane CHAJRMAN: We thank you sir. MEMBER TORTORA: We hope we helped you. MR. MOSQUERA: In regards to the (inaudible)? MEMBER TORTORA: The board recognizes the wetlands. Weare aware of that. I don't have any problems. CHAIRMAN: I have no problems with that. --....~~~ \ Påge5df74,Octohor 17,2Û02 Z)3A Puhlic fIearing Transcript Town of South old MEMBER ORLANDO: Likewise. MR. MQSQUERA: (inau<tibk) .' ÇH.A1RM.AN: No, you have to wait for a written decision. Ar\d please dQ11't kave nntil we close the hearing, MR. MOSQUERA: We are all squared away with the ~ MEMBER TORTORA: I think we are in good shape. MR MOSQUERA: I appreciate your time_ C~AN' Than!<s for CQP'ing in. Anyone. else like to speak for or agaills, this applicalioIj? Seeing 110 hands,FJìmak~amotiont(.) close thisJ",aringreserving decision until Iater. . Allin favor? .AU ayes- We wiU vote onit hQpefuUy tQ,);ght, if not tonight, it,wI be very shortly, Thank YQu. SEE. MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 6:41 p.m. AppL No. 5190 - JOEL LAUBER. Request for a Variance under SectiQn 100-32 based on the B\IiIding Department's September 23,2002 NQtice of Disapproval (replacing the August 14, 2001 Notice), for the reason that the zoning code restricts the )leigl:ttof an one family dwelling to 2-2 Y2 stories. Applicant is proposing to make additions and alterariQl:)S to an existing dwelling with a thirdstory habitable :space. Location QfprQperty· 4090 Orchard Street, Orient; Parcel 27-3c3.13 (nonconfonning size of79,300 +/- sq. ft. in an R-200 Residential Zone District) CHAIRMAN: We've been out to your house in Orient. Whatwould yon like to tell us about your 3,d story? JOEL LAUBER: It's pretty straightforward. What I can tell you about the property is the house is set qnite a waybackftQm fue road. It's surrounded by trees 40-50' highQn2 acres. I can see the neighbors - fuey can't see me. When I bought the house it had ql1ite a spectacular view of the -. Given fue fact that the trees ill the area have grown in the last 25 years, it's gone. I'd like to re-capture those views ifI CQuldwithin fue existing footprint. We have a flat root: It's abQut 1,500 sq. ft. I'm sUPPQsed tQ take about 40% Qfthat,just to put on the bedroom, which WQuld give me the views back. The house now has a 3' - around fue entire toof so fuat as far as fue existing structure is concerned, 19' high ftQm the road, you can see - if we add this addition, we would add 5', about 113 on fue sarne footprint obviously. The impact is really for me. There would be no impact negative or positive on any of the neighbors. CHAIRM,\N: Are you aware of some of the restrictions enforced on 3'd story additions? MR. LAUBER: I'm aware that fuere is a 2Y2 story ~ this house is bnilt on slabs, and has 2 stories. I know that we're well under fue tQtal height requirements, and fuat's why we're asking for a variance. I'm also aware fuat a piece of property only 2 doors dQwn from us, which would be anofuer 200 yards down the road, has j\Ist recently been approved. CHAIRMAN: That had fue story on it already. MR. LAUBER: He already built it. CBAIRMAN: No. It was part of fue house. It existed. MR. LAUBER: No, I'm talking about brand neW. (- "..~ I I I I , I LJ Page 60[74, October n, 2002 IlBA Public Hearing Transcript TOWjl.ofS'outbold CHAIRMAN: We didn't grant it. We're not quibbling with you, but we didn't grant it. MEMBER TORTOLA: It didn't come through us. CHAJ]¡.MAN: No, it didn't come through u"' and that's the only way that it conld come. Let me go a little bit farther. Bverything that we bave granted to date has required a full c<m;1prehensive spripkler Syste1U ill all 3 ,tòries. That's ntnnber one. Number two, we understand yoUr situation, but we don't know if the water view aspect is.really- a plight. That's not a sarcastic statement. I'll leave that up to the board to make that determination because we have¡1't really discussed it amongst ourse)vès because wti don't until we èome to this hearing. I just need to àsk you what's downstairs on the firSt floor in the house. MR,. LÀUBER; Well tha house. is bµilt, was o{iginally built ~ff the ¡;tounp- the way it was (inaudible) so the lowet leve:l of the houslJ, the main living; aréa is on the,seébrtcI:f!pDr, thIJ kitch€!!, livID¡; IOom- CHAIRMAN: Like a reverse house. MR. LAUBER: The first floot isjust a home office, a bedroom, a utility toom, a lalUldry room, and sort of an ent!1l11C"e. 1:hesecondfloorispretty much the living area, the kitcfuon, a bedroom, and a little bed. What we are ptoposirtg to do is put a bédt;oom on the tbird floot. MEMBER TORTORA: The elevation exceeds the limit. You said the existing house has 19'. MR. LAUBER: Two stories. MEMBER TORTORA: The top is 19'. Your plans measure to 29' to the top at one point and 32-34' at another. MR. LAUBER: 32' high? MEMBER TORTORA: The elevations you submitted show you increase it l' (inaudible) MR. LAUBER: AIl I can tell you is two 8' ceilings and a 3' bathroom. They might be a little more than that. CHAIRMAN: Whatever the (irtaudible). MR. LAUBER: All I'm sayirtg is it's a standard 2 story house- CHAIRMAN: We were there_ We know what it is. MEMBER TORTORA: The other thing I want to ask you, on the third floor, you're going to have an open flat root; a deck area, what is the dome ou top? MR. LAUBER: The existing staircase, the entry stairs are going to be exteuded on the floor. They are goiug to be arched ou the top, it's architectural. MEMBER TORTORA: Gerry, you have the full plans, what is this indicating? CHAIRMAN: I would assume it's the stairwell that this geutleman is referrirtg to_ MEMBER TORTORA: It's on the west elevation and it also shows up on the east elevation. MR. LAUBER: It would only be on the front of the house. It rises above the- CHAIRMAN: Right. It's that stairwell that you're referring to. \, I . , ~ , ,,~ L:i 1'> I: 1\) U1! ;1 I: , ,..' ~ ~ ~.....__._._-",..",,~ - Page 7 01'74, bctober!7, 2002 ZBA Públic Hearing Transcript Town of SOlJthoJd MEMBER TORTORA.: One of the things that's hard for us to understand, when we first started looking at flat roofs in tef11ls of height - it's really remarkable when you look at a 2 story or 21\ stories structure, as opposed tó a flat roof. The board has had experiences looking at (inaudible) MR, LAIJ8ER: We have' a big roof en 2 stories, The pitch in the roef is higher in the front. MEMBER TORTORA: The overall effect On this js very everwhelming_ MR. LAUBER: The only thing I can tell yeu abeut this preperty is it's net visible ITem the road. CHAffiMAN: I had tp drive down yeur driveway. MEMBER TORTORA.; Since it's net technically a third story, kind ef an ebservati"n tower, ør a non- habitable area- MEMBER ORLANDO: . Let' sback lJp. Wouldn't it be e¡¡sier to trim your trees so you conld see the water again (hen to gµ through this aggravatiött? MR LAUBER: We're not talking about my trees, It's an entire area. MEMBER ORLANDO: They're not your trees. MR LAUBER: Some are, but many are not. . MEMBER ORLANDO: The observation tower, we'll call it. The new extension will not exceed the height of that? MR. LAUBER: No, it's exactly the same. One way to look at itwonld be an extension of that tower, MEMBER ORLANDO: And what's up there now? MR LAUBER: Nothing. MEMBER ORLANDO: I also stopped by there_ No one was home, but I wanted to go up there and look. MR. LAUBER: There's nothing in there. MEMBER ORLANDO: And the construction is at that height. CHAffiMAN: This is a very interesting situation_ You've started with this third floor construction about 2 years ago. New houses, it seems~ it's assumed, if you're building a house, you're going to put it in. A couple of people merely put them in entryways for the first and second floor, and I guess there's no provision in the state construction code, and therefore the Building Department requires that we hire a consnltant. So, that was the reason I suggested we talk about it in the beginning. It's a little expensive to do thai Ifwe,were to grant this, or a portion of this, I'm sure you would be required to pay for the entire amount. MR LAUBER: That wonld be the Building Department? CHAlRMAN: That's based upon the state construction code. We've come a long way on this, and I realize this is somewhat upsetting for you to understand, Not to understand, I'm sure you understand it very well, but to learn this tonight. That this is basically the case_ I think what we need to do, and I think Mr_ Orlando hit it right on the head, and that was, I think we need to make an appointment ou a Saturday morning or some evening before any of this starts, and come Over and see that ,third story room. ("'. ---~ ('. \,,-/ r¡ Ji ): ! (! 1:; _<__·__.__~~<__~~_"...~_x·._~~."·.~,,~",._.~~___~··,~,__~~,~~ Pag!".8<>f74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public)J.earing Transcript TownöfS011thold MR LAUBER: I must say, this is no exception, a brand new house being built 2 houses, and Ihave a copy- CHA¡IµvJ:AN; Weare aware of that house. The !TIst stQry of that house is not a story. It's not in the gJ;OUAd... ~.lòt. of the.house i& pî1jUgs. The one room that's doWl1staU-s isa non-habiìablerqo¡:n. H's basically (Ii" Jmn.ace roOll1, ¡t)ld they haveadmítted toUS\ during tjle !leluing, that they llseit for an exercise room, bnttha;tis th" exteì1tof tlµt r091'n, Thatis still construed. to be nOl1-habìtable becanse>they don't OPJ4lpyit 0):\ ILnlglltly pasig. In other words, they don't sleep there. H is a Jmn.ace room. That's why I questioned yon 011 what waS downstairs. MR. LAUBER: Personally, I'm not trying to point the finger at somebody else. CHAJRM-AN; Ate yo1/. ayailabI" Satm:day, between 1O-10:30? Anywn"re between that range, we'll come oVer and ~e a look. Are you ';vailable? MR LAUBER: What i& the )3µüding Department requirement? MEMBF;~HORNTh,~q: On row p~, are YOll having sliding glass doors? On othar approvals, you.have one requiring ¡netal ,,!lain ladders. Are the windows up on that third floor - it's open. MEMBER ORLANDO? No railings up top? MR LAUBER: You're actually sinking it in to the existing- CHAIRMAN: I think Mr. Lauber is.saying there's a membrane there that comes up approximately 3' up, and the roof drains in the house, and. then out. Is that correct? And that's what we'll see on Saturday. That's why you have to make sure that they are clean, nothing backs 111' when the leaves fà11 in the winter. We thank YOll' We'll see you between 10&10:30_ Iffor any reason there's any change or anything, we'll call you tomorrow. Please· don't l!"ave until this hearing is concluded. Is there anyone else who would like to speak for or against this application? What I would like to do, ladies and gentlemen, is close this hearing for verbatim testimony and so long as you guys go along with that. That's fine. Weare going to close this hearing for verbatim testimony, and any additional infonnation we may reqnest of you, you will be able to put into the record.. We will close it on November 14th. We'll take no further testimony from anybody standing in front of us in a verbatim sense, but we will take additional testimony if we have any requests from yqu in :writing orftom your architects or engineer or whoever makes claims. Your name will appear on the agenda for the next regular meeting, but merely as a right to close this ont. MR. LAUBER: I have a letter. CHAIRMAN: We'll take that right now_ MEMBER ORLANDO: Second CHAIRMAN: All in favor? AIl ayes_ SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 7:00 p.m. Appl. No. 5174 - ARLENE MANOS (Hearing canyover from September 19, 2002 for Suffolk County Soil & Water Conservation District reply to ZBA inquiry. Reply received September 23, 2002.) Pool at less than 100' from bluff at 2000 Sound Drive, Greenport C. Mesiano, Inc. CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Mesiano, we have the letter from the SC Soil & Water Conservation dated September 23,2002. It's probably one of the more favorable oneS we've seen in a long time. You want to comment on anything? ">'~""_=__~~____~',"__'~.~~___~e=~'.~~ ,,-~.....~ -=....-."'~-- Page <} of74, October 17,2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of South old CATHY MESIANO: The only thing I'd like to say is in light of the letter ITom the Soil and Water Conservation that we reiterate our position in that we're giving the most conservative actions we can in order to put a small pool in the back of the house the ITont yard not being an option primarily because the because the l0patÌon and the driveway. The neighbors cpncern is the appeara1\ce of the neighborhood. When we were here last we talked about, we taJked briefly about what kind of treatment there wouIrl.\be as fur as the patio. Mrs. Manos had not hired an architect becaUse she was not confiden( to do thet until' tins Board made a decision. So I have a couple of sketches that I will pre$e11t to the Board. basically we're looking fdr, we had proposed a 42' sethack ITom the bluff, what we wonld likMo be able to de (ipaud1.ble) the comments about the excavation being too close to ,the foundation. I've spoken to the Building Depa;lu1ení they didn't see anything wronKwith it as a matter of the work conce¡ned after we m~ f!¡e com;ment. If we gained 2' móre off of the house whereby total setheck ITom the bluff at 20' to the edge of the pool andthe,patio arounçl the pool (inaudible) fencing would b" tWt requir!,!! by code, CHAIRMAN: Question is again, is it a liner pool or a gutrite? MS. MESIANO: Liner. CHAIRMAN: Liner Pool, okay.. Two quick thiµgs - one of the concerns the board always has in 100' lots of this magnitude, which happens to be a beautiful piece of property I'm just saying it's not a 2 or 3 acre parcel where the utilitiesJàctors are going so they don't bother neighbors. What we have been doing en these is reservìti¡>; their ri@l!s on two things. W" are reserving th" right to review the1andscaping plans, and we are reserving the right to find out where those systems go. We learned this very, very well in Southold down in YennØcott Park on a one-acre lot. There's going to be some time issues betweeµ the construction of this pool.and the actual use of this pool. We may be addressing the right to review next Spring. In thet particulat case down in Yennecott Park, which Were one-acre lots, they were required to put the utilities in an iusulat"d shed sp they did not bother the neighbors. In reference to the 4' I don't. know if the b<)a1'd is willing to gqthe other 2, but we'll kick it around. W e'lllet you know in the decision. Don't you want to say something? MEMBER TORTORA: You hadn't shown any fencing or decking, that will all be (inaudible) MS_ MESIANO: No decking, just patio- CHAIRMAN: Blocks or something_ MS. MESIANO: It's going to be decorated (inaudible) CHAIRMAN: Questions gentlemen? MEMBERS ORLANDO AND HORNING: No. CHAIRMAN: Auything else you want to say Ms. Mesiano? MS_ MESIANO: No, I think we've covered everything. CHAIRMAN: As you know, welve been relatively modest ínreference to our reviews we have_at times -come down \Vith a hammer or a sword or a sickle, or anything of that nature in reviewing this stuff just so you're aware of that. Inplacing of restrictions are. MS. MESIANO: Thank you. CHAIRMAN: Hearing no further comment, I make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** '-"'--='~---' Page 10 of 74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of South old 7:07 p.m. Appl. No. 5179 . CHARLES SIDOROWICZ. Request for Variance under Sections 100- 30A.4 and. 100-33, based on theBuildIDg Department's June 5, 2002 Notice of Disapproval for a location of a new accessory ganlgein a side yard area. Site ~ociltiOn: 3300 Cox Neck Road, Mattituck; Parcel 113-8-4. CHAIRMAN: Charlie we are reildy for yon. CHARLE$ SIDOROWICZ: Charles Sidorowicz, I'm here to answer any questions the board might have. CHAIRMAN: You have a one-story garage which is an existing one-car garage, and you want to replace it with - the size of the new garage is? MR. SIDOROWICZ: Proposed26'x26'. CUAJRMAN: How close is that item to the property line? MR. SIDOROWICZ: 6.3'. CHAIRMAN: That bU1¡1p in your property line was a nature of a court action and that bUfnp exists, when I say bU1¡1p, I tueanjog_ That jog is. now your property and there's no question abont it and that's it. MR. SIDOROWICZ: That's in three different courts. CHAIRMAN: Just so the board - because there are members on the board that were not aware of that sitnation, and not to bring up any problems or anything of that nature. MR. SIDOROWICZ: We were in litigation for 19 years they finally settled this year. CHAIRMAN: I think we can normally call that a boundary line disagreement which is what was settled in court. Is that correct? MR. SIDOROWICZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN: Height of the buildiug? One story? MR. SIDORWICZ: Approximately 12'. CHAIRMAN: I have no questions - is that actually attached to the house? MR. SIDOROWICZ: No, it's not. There's a breezeway between the garage- CHAIRMAN: Sö where it says "concrete slabll? MR. SIDOROWICZ: Right. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Horning, any questions for Mr. Sidorowicz? MEMBER HORNING: In your application that you submitted you're mentioning there's a slab and the current garage is on at least half of an existing slab. MR. SIDOROWICZ: The plan says 24x24 and the garage is on 112 the deck. MEMBER HORNING: In this written testimony here there was a garage over the entire slab at one time. CHAlRMAN: Mr. Orlando? ,...,.., ~ ., n í; , ;:1 I H 1: ~! :1· :~ -..~ Page 11 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Publîc Hearing Tnwscript Town of South old MEMBER ORLANDO: You're going to do a complete demo. You're going to remove this single-car garag~ ndw_ C1fARL];iS SIDQROWICZ: 1'111, not going to demojish it, it's going to be removed. I've got somebody who's going to\ake it. MEMBER ORLANDO: Second, this existing slab, are you going to re-use that? MR. SlDOROWICZ: It's going to be a 3' footing all around it. We're going to use that existing- MEMBER ORLANDO: Go over it. Because it didn't look very level. Good drainage, but not very leveL Ne"t year that will. Jx; a new garage, it W<l11,'t be the asbe¡;tos sÞ:ìngle¡; you have on there now_ MR. SlDOROWICZ: Yes it will matçh the house_ MEMBER ORLANDO: No further questions. CHAIRMAN: Member Tortora? MEMBER TORTORA: No, we're pretty f,mliliar with the property ftom the last owner. You have limited options because of the wetla11ds. It's probably the best location. CHAIRMAN: For the record, Mr. Sidorowicz, the reason for more feet is what? The reason for going ft¿m 24 to 26 is what? MR. SIDOROWICZ: It would be easier to put a footing around the whole foundation now, then it would be· to pick up a portion of the fOWldation. CHAIRMAN' We'll see what develops throughout the hearing_ I'll be right with you. Would you state your name for the record please? ELEANOR SIEVERNICH: I'm Eleanor Sievernich. I own the adjacent property. I'm requesting an adjounnnent. My intent is to procure a response fÌom my insurance company. CHAIRMAN: Because of the nature of the November meeting, we are Wlable to postpone this to the November meeting. We have an extensive amoWlt of hearings on that night, and one hearing is going to take approximately 2 hours. The best we can do is the December meeting_ We'll see if the board is so inclined .to grant that to you. Is the board inclined to grant that? All agreed. We will calendar that for December 5. MEMBER ORLANDO: YoUr property is on the south side? MRS. SIEVERNICH: Yes. CHAIRMAN: Anyone else like to speak at this hearing at this time? Hearing no further comment, I'll make a-motion recessing the hearing until December 5th. MEMBER ORLANDO: Second_ CHAIRMAN: All in favor? All ayes. 7:14 p.m. Appl. No. 5200 - PATRICK W. LORN. Request for a Variance Wlder Section 100-244B, based on the Buílding Department's June 14, 2002 Notice of DisapprovaL Applicant is proposing to construct a new dwelling (after demolishing the existing dwelling), and the new dwelling will be less than 35' ftom the ftont lot line, and the lot coverage will exceed the code limitation of20% of the total lot area. --".'-~,,-------~-<~---~ .b........__ Page 12 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Heariug Transcript Towu of Southold LQcationofProperiy: Comer of Minnehaha Èoulevard aild Wabun Street (at Laughing Waters), Southold; Parce187-3-55. ClIAIRMAN: Evening sir. Would you state your nanIe for the record? PATRICK W. LOIlN: PatrickW. Lobn. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lohn, wQuld you like to tell us what you are doing? MR. LORN: What I'm asking for is a lot line setback, and a couple of variances on a new house that we are going to build. The lot line setback is necessary. It's an odd situation. The only reason I'm here is that the Building Departnlent considers the dirt path that.l1J11\! adjacent to my property as an actual road. I believe i¡;~ calk¡ . Lobom Str~et on ·the ¡nap. My family has lived in this house since 1955. It has never been used as· a road', that's as far æ I'll sày. It's basically a dirt path. You've be~r there, you've seen Ít_ WhátI'¡n;asking foris an .~dditionul7 1/2' to.position the house closer to .¡hat dirt path, so I can have the driveway 011 the south side of the property. It would be adjacent to my neighbor's driveway, and make a whole.l¡rt;more sense, Right now, aIpl:\g that pathway, there is my oW11 garagò, which is less than 2' rrom the pøpèJ;ty Ime.. ::rlrere is, ¡ntpf!\eF £W:¡¡ge. fiu:t4er down, same. thing, rjghton it. Where I'm asking :fo): th~ setbacks to be placed, would acìmûly pnt·tht>.new hQuse furtIIer £rö1Ì1 that Lobom Street. tJ,,,,,. the present hDù.Sê is."-"'w ¡;'y abQut a fort. Ai; fai æ tb,e.aiea setbacks, the.y are basically qne of livability, I just want ¡he deck to Q¡> a lItt1e bit larger, and th"" also, in practical temIS,- I'm lo(>~g for a .little bit larger place for a garage. . Wllere the l"opert¡y is.lo¿at<;¡!:.nmv, I'm, I1Qt allo,!,ed to have a space for some storages. It's very, very tougb. As far as the '!Tell, :ítJere~ llI'è conœmed, cQIµpated to t)J., overall size of the lot, fuey are very mm*",me, I t1),,.,k cenfumed 'theX are less than 350 sq'; ft., but.again, I.oon't know, The Ipt line setback is very ÌùJpc" IMr, b!'c/lUSe'1 win n0tJ14ve a ·ljse~ble drivtwa)' I don't belreve it would interfer<> m any·way, shape, or'Ibim with.thè character -òf 1lie neigrrbo:rhood. Ip fact it migbtactaallw improve it. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lohn, When I.met with you and you .kiNdly showed me the interim of your house, could you just explain to the boardH\le reason wh¥ you need to tear this house doW11? Ml}. ¡;QHN: The house is a &hoddily built nigl)lmare. It Js a nightmare. Any workman that has ever done- whethòr it be a carpenter, electrician, or a pluinber- leaves. with their mouths open. It is impossible to fix. any!hÍng ¡here without running mto ¡L major project. It's¡ impossible to add a second story to it because there is absolntely no substance to add. a. second story on. It started as a sum:ttler cottage, and thell it was added otl to. TIle addition is - qnite Ii";'estly, I don't know how it's ever stood up for what it is. It's terrible. It's liter¡Llly falling oovm around'me. CHAfRM<\N: Y 01:4 did shpW me the, deterioration in the livrng roan¡ and in the dining roem. MR. LOHN: Correct. CHAIRMAN: Of course, we didn't go into the bedroom because the boys were sleeping at that time. I did visuálize fuat, but I just wanted you to explain that to the board. MR. LOHN: It's basicallytbe same thing. Windows don't operate properly beea1:4se there's no rrame properly in place in the wan to put them in at the right angle. It's an absolute nightmare. There are no bases to build on so, thatlswhere we are now. CHAlRMAN: Member Tortora, any questions? MEMBER TORTORA: Who owns the right of way? MR. LOHN: The T OW11 of Southold says that the tOW11 owns it. But I have, on two separate occasions, been told by the Highway DepartJ;nent, because the tree thst stands 011 the comer ofMhmehaha Blvd. and the entrance to that is on toW11 prOpèrty, has needed work, the tOW11'S Highway Dept. .refused on two occasions to come and do the work,. claiming that ìt wasn't' a street. · _"··"~~___.~"~,,~_~-,-,,,,,,~.,",,·7·,·.~...-__,,____~..1_--==.~=-· =",..,'=-","--=""----=><>.=~=._- Page 13 of 14, Octob6' 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of South old MEMBER TORTORA: (inaudible) MR' LüHþl; 1, J?1!iÀ for the tree work, and I also, al<;mg with my 1).eighbørs, paid to have it mowed, sprayed Whé1). neèess¡¡¡y; therè's never been any maintenance of allY kind done on that pathway. Ml\MB~ TOROTRA: I'm curious, because ifs not shoW!). as a privatè right of way back ttom (inaudible) official map, as a street. lvIR. LOHN~ In effect, itts never been used as a street. There is maybe a dozen cars going up it a y~ar. ç~; W e'fI'fì!milia¡- ~th the street, Þecausewe granted varianc~s 01). the ()tt's and Eileen ;(}aI1a¡;1'ler last June. \ŒMBERTO:ROTRA: A COUplè of things, you havè a small (inaudible) the totalbuilding area is 1,750 sq. ft. is that the footprint of the (inaudible) MR. LORN: I'm lIDt sure. I'd have to look at what you're looking at MEMBB:R TOROTRA: That dOèsIÌt include the deck area or the garage. I'm actually looking at the architect's tendèri11g that you subIuirted with the application. I'mjnst wondering because the lot èovèrage- MR. LORN: Ag;ri1\, what you see in ttont of you has been approved by the Building Department. What has notbeen approved was a slightly larger dèck and a slightly larger garage. The two increases 1 believe- MEMBER TOR@TRA: We've got tø stop right there because that's not ourU1\derstanding of what's befure us. Our U1\dèrstanding of what's before us is ttom the Building Department's disapproval. What they' say the variance is for, they say yOU have two ttont yards, because they consider the private driveway also a ttönt yard, and they are saying thettont yard setbacks are 35' ttom there, and yoU are proposing 10', thafs variance No. 1. Then they say you exceed thè lot coverage (inaudible) for 20. I'mjust concerned becaus.e the garnge is not (inaudible) you're actually okay as far as the garage is concerned- MR. LORN: I wonld like to make it another 80 sq. ft. larger than it is. MEMBER TORTOLA: I see, you're total garage area is 320 sq_ ft. Well, depending on what you want to do, you could take a little bit off the garage orwha¡ever (inaudible)thè lot coverage, and the setbacks. MR. LORN: Right. MEMBER TORTOLA: I really don't know what the stams of that driveway is, other than it's (inaudible) MR. LORN: That's pretty much what it is. MEMBER TORTOLA: A more important question I can't offer. You have some fairly obvious consrtaints on this property. Is there any way that you could increase that 10' setback? MR. LORN: Right 1).OW, they want us to go, I think it's 17 1/2' and I simply measured ttom what I felt is the property line to where 10' was, and low and behold, it's right where the present house is, so I figured it was, really, not asking too much just to keep things stams quo. You must realize the existiug garage that's there now is also going to come dovm. Itls only going to add to whatever aesthetics there are there. Thatls my feeling. Again, ifs such a tight squeeze on the south side of the property the way the Building Department has approved us that another 7 1/2 would make it very, very uioo for me_ It really wonld. We've worked a long time on getting this where we are. MEMBER TORTORA: (inaudible) '~·'··'_._·_c,~,,·,__·.~'~'·~"C,,_·.~,,~~·.~.""i"".,,"_'"~---"''''1''''-'.'~~'~='''''''"'''' ...,......"""""''''""=''...'''''"'.,.,-'''''''".-~,~--=-=~,-'''' Pagèl4of74,'Oêtobêr17,2002 ZBA Public Hearing- Transcript Town ofSouthold CHAIRMAN: About 32' approximately_ MR_ LOI-IN: I'd have to look at the plans, and I really wouldn't know how to read them to tell you the truth_ MEMBER ORLANPO: Your north sjdeboundary where the garage.i$ now, you're going to iucrea~e that ~ide yard, actual1ythe front yar~ they call it, your front yard ftom 2'-to 10', correct? Yon're incxeasing that- MR_ LORN: In effect by removing the garage, that is what is goiug to happen_ MEMBER ORLANDO: Exactly, that's what I wanted to get at You're iucreasiug it by 8', by removiug the garage. MR. LORN: Again, the pre~ent house is where the new one is going to be basically_ MEMBER ORLANDO: But your g¡u'age i~ 2' off the property liue, which wíl1 be xemoved and nPwwill be 10' away - the closest ~tructure_ ' MR_ LORN: The clo~est structure will be 10' away. MEMBER ORLANDO: You're incxeasiug it by 8'. No other questions. CHAIRMAN: JMr. Horning- MEMBER HORNING: On your architect's rendering, what is that irregular shape with the 1/7 iu the middle of it? ApprQximatelyextending 17' ftom the house to your proposed driveway, what is that area? MR. LORN: I think it's the curved driveway. It gives the illusion of something that- MEMBER HORNING: Is it your lawn? MR. LORN: Right now it's grass and shrnbs_ I'm sorry, I misunderstood. MEMBER HORNING: So you could conceivably have your house pushed to the south a bit_ MR. LORN: No, not if you want to walk off a normal driveway. Can I come up and show you what I'm looking at? MEMBER HORNING: Sure_ MR. LORN: IfI'm not mistaken, here's the proposed driveway, this I think was supposed to be- still even if it was to become a driveway, from the comer of the hQuse to my property liue is 5' . You can't get a car around the comer of the building. MEMBER HORNING: +/- 7' ftom the comer over. You're saying this is only 5'_ I'm goiug on this - I've walked it off, and staked it to the best of my ability. I mean ifthexe was a delivery, a truck of some kind, it would never make it around the corner of the buildiug. CHAIRMAN: Anything else? We'll see what develops throughout the hearing. Please don't leave until this hearing is closed_ See if anybody else has any comments regarding this. We thank you for your - presentation. Anyone else like to speak iu favor or agaiust this application? Seeiug no hands, I'll make a motion to close the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER ORLANDO: Second. CHAIRMAN: All iu favor? All ayes. - -,.._.~",---,",..--,,~.",,-~=",--=~-~.,--,¡ ...,.-"""'-~"*" PagelS of74, Octolier 17, 2002 ZBA Public Heariug,Transcript Towu of South old PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 1:J.9 p.ll . Appl. N~. 5189.· PAUL AND LIS^, HOLOBIQIAN. R,eqq~$t a Vari¡u¡,ce under S~c1ion 100. 242A and WOc30A,A, based on theBnilding Departm~nt's Junè 11, 2002 Noriçe ofDisapproval. Appllcaqt!i pr9Po$e to enclose at¡ exi¡;,ting addition, with an increa$e in the d~gree ofn<>l1cotrf<>nnlty <>f the existing garage in a side yard. Location ofptoperty: 1155 Marlen~ Lat¡e, MattitJrck; Parce1144-3-3. CHAIRMAN: Evening sir, how are yon? Please state your name fortheTecord. WILLIAM HULSE: I'm Wi11imn Hulse. CHAIRMAN: You aIe the con1;ractor for the applicant? WILLIAM HULSE: Yes_ C.ßAIRMAN' It is my understat¡dìng that the plan that was submitted has now been revised somewhat, andthis.i$ goitIgto be at¡ enclo$ed wom, and made part of the living area of the house. Is that correct? .MR. HULSE: (inauillòle) CHAIRMAN: It's stin going to be one story, right? MR. BULSE: Yes. CHAIRMAN: Any questions for this builder? MEMBER HORNING: Is this livable space you're proposing? MR. HULSE: Yes. MEMBER ORLANDO: The pi,tch, it's gradual ftom the existing roof· and tree removal, the triple oak trees, that's going to' go? Is there going to be an entranceway? MR. HULSE: Yes. MEMBER ORLANDO: I don't' have a set of plans in ftont of me. I gness I didn't get the revised ones. CHAIRMAN: It's still the same plan_ MEMBER ORLANDO: Is there going to be a door access on that? Or will there be an access door on the north side. What's the total square footage of the extension? MR. HULSE: I got 12 8th,s. CHAIRMAN: About 300 sq. ft. I get 12 8th,s x 22 8th,s according to this plan ftom the lumberyard_ Is that correct? MR. HULSE: Yes_ MEMBER ORLANDO: No other questions. CHAIRMAN: MemberTortora? ="=,,,,,-==~"C_ ~~--~ )'''ge 1'6 of74,Qctober 17, 2002 ZBA Public H"""ng Transcript TOW1I.ofSouthold MEMBE~ TO~TORA: You have your accessory garage in your side yard in a perfectly legal spot. You were issued" bl/ilding permit for the deck. You put the deck on the back of the house. The deck was in the righ,t place, put the accessory garage (inaudiNe). You meet all of the setbacks required_ I have no objectiol1S_ CHAlRMAN: Is. there anyone else who would like to speak in favor or against this hearing. Seeing nO hands, I make a motion to close the hearing, reserving decision until later. PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 7:30 p.rn. Appl. No. 5184 - WILLIAM ¡¡EIFERT. Request for a Variance under Secrion 100-242A and 244B, based on the Building Departmenfs June 19,2002 Notice of Disapproval. Applicant is proposing to C011StruÞ! additions/alteratiol1S to an existing dwelling with setPacks at less that 35' :crom the :crom lot line, and less than· 35' :cram the rear lot line, at 7145 Soundview Avenue, SouthoJd; 1000-59-6-3 CHAIRMAN: Could you please state your naI11e for the reco:t:d? GARRE:rtSJ'RANG: Gan-,tt Strang, ¡µ:chitect, representing William Seifert. Iwould.like to suPmit for the board the Trustee's permit for the record. I would m,.o like to make the board aware of the fact that we are in contact presently with the PEe, and theY<ITe reviewing our application. We've had seNeral meetings with tþ.eiI)c. At this point, I've Peen told. that everything that we've supmitted to them - what you see on the map it1 wnt of you, is acceptaple to them, lfasically what we are proposing there, as you Can see it, on the east side of the hous~, Qyer the rear PQrtion of tlte driveway is a 16x24' screen porch. It's supposed to pe setbacklO' wm the :cront propertY line,and OPviQusly the requirement is 35'. I expect the PQard is aware of the fact that tlterewas a.variance ¡ssned on this prQperty when the house was puiltback m 1984, allowing for a 171/2' fropt yard, Now, I'm not quite sure whether that setback with the structere of the Qrigi1Jalhouse. CH.A1RMAN: Actually, Mr. Seifert, was quite upset with us. We sent him backto the drawing board several times~. afid at.certain times, that he's come, he's mentioned that tome. To be honest with you, yes, and we know ifs close. I just wanted to reflect on one thing, which you don't have to answer rignt now in YQur prese.t1tatioI). Whydid you choose to extend it out past the building envelQpe, and not Pring it right in lirte with the present sit11ation? MR. STRANG: I'd be happy to answer that, Put I'm not, you mean as far as this projection out towards the pond? CHAIRMAN: Yes, towards the pond. MR. STRANG: Tne idea there, is tQ nave it project out there.- well, numper one to bring it out further Pack to the front yard so that we could leave the other comer that's closer to aPont 20' as well. Also through that there can p" an egress from that porch along a little snort walk across the back of the house to getto the primary deck which is another of the application. That's the reason for the two-fold, to bring it further baçk from the road, and second, to gain access to the walkway. CHAIRMAN: Is there anything else you wanted to say, or can I ask you another question? MR. STRANG: The. only other thing I wanted to address is in respect to the deck. The deck is, as you can see, supposed to be 27' back from the edge of the water, or property line, as opposed to 35'. We originally nad wanted to do a but in discussing it further witb the DEC, their preference is for atl elevated deck. Tney didn't want to nog the surface of this patio area on grade. Tney would rather have an elevated deck. My understatlding is nad it been a character grade, we would have needed a variance. They asked ns to elevate it, now it's actually by the pool. Tnat's pretty much what we have in this application CHAIRMAN: Let's go with Mrs. TortQra. f'. '\..._- ,.i._.,,_,o·'~""'_~""""~"'__"~·__~""""'·~~_~~="-=__ -L-""=----=OO"""""'=.--."""""Io,___ .,..-==~~~~- Page 1 Tof74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Tran$çript Town of Southold :MEMBER TORTORA; To clear up the record, a variance is granted to . There was a request ahnost identical to what you're proposing that came before this board on March 10, 1986. At which time the aPP!i-p¡tnt a¡>Plied for an accessory storage structpre in the identical area that you;re proposing. The po¡ttd de!lied ir.,andJ'wnot<¡uite sure thatwe are n?t in dIeet barred by the dqC1ill1entdirectly because we h~¡tt Whllt an¡quï¡ts tpessentillily the same application, Td have to check with leg>¡! cOll.j1Se], but I just note that itwas~yniedpecaµse I!heboard atthe tiJI]e ~eltthat it would be too. close in proxiInitY to the wetlands, i¡.1).d it "IllS fi<1t!ieciwiJ]iolltpreJµG!ice. We 1:(ied lolitigatt;it by aU these filctol"$, bUt the Qne-stqry sCreen porch is virtually i¡,Ientical to anQther applièation that was denied by this board. MR. STRANG: That application, I was npt aware of. It's the first I've heard of that. I was of the opinion I!harthis. (leGis;- that has beel)renderOO by this boardwöµ)<J:.be 13.l/2fsetpa",k;as it exmts. :MEMBER TORTORA; There was another one priQr to that Ifs in out hom.e file. MR. STRANG; Sort of a secondary. This is from the previous owner, this i$ a new owner who purchased the house 10 years ago. MEMBER HORNING; Wasn't the variance denied for an4 the board was - we had occasion to go before the Trustees and the·DEC we were concerned about the property f\ear the wetlands. We wanted to get some f<redbaek from either of those boards, theDEC and Trustees before- (?) accessory building rather than principlli dwelling? MEMBER TORTORA: If You read througt it, I would have to pnll out the whole file, that's why I'm not ; sure whether it wa.s denied because of the wetlands or not. MEMBER HORNING; Right because if it were for accessory building MR STRANG; One of the reasons that we withheld coming before this board until we had occasions to go before the Trustees and the DEC because of concertls with the wetlands. We wanted to get feedback from either of those boards, the DEC and the Trustees on what their feelings were on the proximitY to the wetlands. They are supposed to have that they are in favor of, as far as the Trustees, they have actually issued peimits. And the DEC is expected to give peimits, hopefully, not before long, but for several reasons _ They had no challenge, to give a brief history with respect to the portion, the DEC rellily had no challenge beçause the majority of construction was going over an already 'graveled parking area, they felt that wasn't really much more of an impact I do appreciate your concern with respect to the proximity to the wetlands. I follow the format of addressing the enviromnentlli issues first CHAJRMAN; The only other concern I have is the fact that you're actually taking driveway area away_ As you know, it's a very difficult piece of property to park on anyway - in reference to multiple cars_ That's an issue thats a concern. Mr. Orlando? MEMBER ORLANDO; That was my one big question Gerry. No, I'm. kidding_ It give the impression there's 20' of driveway, but as you see, the grade is maybe 10', there's a morlli dilemma rigtt there. Another question - is there going to be a slab or a crawlspace built underneath the porch, how is that going to be constructed? MR. STRANG; As I was proposing, I haven't gotten iuto the finite details yet with my client, but I would suspect to build it as an on-post elevated to the floor level of the house, basically it would be a deck, it wonld be insect -proof- MEMBER ORLANDO; Because of the back, because the grade in the back drops off pretty significantly also, that was why I was inqillring- · ~_"W'·~_C'___~ '._.' ~~_~~~,.~~._~.,~_.·~".»~~.~.===,"..,,,,~~_L -"""""==--~=._"".-===~--.,.,,.- ]>ag<; 18 of 74, bctober 17,2002 ZßA Public Hearing Transcript ToW!) of South old :M:R. STRANG: I would prefer not to get too involved with constructing, or excavating an area. MEMBER TORTORA: How high? MR. ST)ù\1'irG: Anyw,h<)re :ITOm 8.16" öff the grade_ I believe thars prese,ntly what the elevation would be. MEMBER TORTORA: MR. STRANG: That is in the 80. Elevation II is the minimum. Cl;IAIR,MAN: So i¡¡ the case with the deck, right? MR. STRANG: Yes. MEMBER TORTORA: Except the :ITont part. MR. STRANG: That part is out. We're not doing anything with the :ITont. MEMBER ORLANDO: No other questions. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Horning? MEMBER HORNING: No other questions_ CHAIRMAN: Thank you sir. I don't lmow if we shouldn't wait until you get some definitive answer :ITom the DEC, on what they are going to do. In the interim, ifwe recess this to th<; December meeting, or we recess this to tile January meeting, we would then be able to detenuine the issue that Mrs. Tortora is raising about the cotta. You would probably have a definitive judgment from the DEC on what they were going to require. MR. STRANG: l;Iopefully, yes. CHAIRMAN: Why don't we go with the January meeting. I don~ know exactly what the date is. MEMBER ORLANDO: Could we also get a preliminary drawing of the porch/deck area? MR. STRANG: We haven't done any designs on this pending approval- MEMBER ORLANDO: At least you can get approval on a sub-floor with the posts and the decking. You can convince them that ex:cavation is not the preferred weapon. MR_ STRANG: The DEC didn't seem to have an issue with it. Quite frankly, the Trustees never even raised the question. Again, I prefer not to do excavation. CHAIRMAN: January 9, 2003. Before you leave, is there anyone else who would like to speak for or against the application? No response. I make a resolution to close the hearing. PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 7:45 p.m. Appl. No. 5194· CHARLES AND ROSEMARY LUSCHER Request a Variance under Section 100-242A and 100-244, based on the Building Department's June 16, 2002 Notice of Disapproval. Applicants propose a second-story addition in a nonconfonuing location (existing dwelling) at less than 35' :ITom the front lot line, less than 10' on a single side yard, and less than 25' for a total side yard area, at 820 Bayview Drive, East Marion; Parc<;137-5-6. ~ ¡ ~ \ ..~~....-._."......,~*-~-~"~,.,-=~,".",~"=-""",, ~-- ---'=-_...--~ Page 19 of74, October 17,.2002 ZBA Public Hearing TransGril't TowuofSoufuold CHAIRMAN: Evening sir, how are you? Can you please state your name for fue record? CI,IARLES LUSCHER: Charles Luscher. CH;A1RMAN; Mr., Luscher, I spelit some time with you at your very nice piece of property at East Marion_ You were explaínihg to me, ánd I obserVed the real problem that you have with your roof, and the apparent collapse based upon the significant snow load, that we hope doesn't occur. I do understand your pJ;oblern; and will tutn it over to Mr_ Horning, and ask him if he has any questions. MEMBER HORNING: Yell us about what you propose to do then, tear down how much? MR. LUSCHER: I'm going to take the roof off the house. Replace the existing 2xl O's. MEMBER HO;RNING: Rafters? IMR. LUSCHER; Roof rafters. I'd like to raise the height of the peak of the roof 7'. What I'm asking petnùssion for is to put a bedroom on the east end of the house. I'd like to replace one of the bedrooms downstairs. MEMBER HORNING: The second floor will not encompass the entire existing layout of the house? MR. LUSCHER: I want to put a bedroom on fue east end of the house. I have a small comer bedroom on the fITSt floor, but I have no closets. I'd like to make that comer bedroom a walk-in closet, and put a bedroom upstarrs, so if my kids come, they have a place, MEMBER HORNING: What would be the size of the upstairs bedroom? MR LUSCHER: Probably 16x16. Actually, there's no way to make it smaller because fue house is 30'x40'. MEMBER HORNING: So it's just the one room up there. MR. LUSCHER: One room. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lushcer, will there be attic area? MR. LUSCHER: The rest of it will be unheated attic area. There will be a hallway at the top of the stairs. I required to put a hallway in there, and sheetrock that hallway. CHAIRMAN: You told me you needed that for storage because you have a garage underneath the house. MR. LUSCHER: No, thafs for storage, It used to be a garage- CHAIRMAN: Oh I thought I observed a garage under the house, MR. LUSCHER: It used to be a garage under the house, by the driveway, but every time it rained the basement fiUed with water. CHAIRMAN: Right MR. LUSCHER:, Part of the attic is for storage, MEMBER ORLANDO: Will the existing footprint tnailltain the same dimensions as it is now? MR LUSCHER: No chllllges_ ~~"'-~·'-""-"__·_'._"'<·O_··'_·~··~··"·""~~-=_-==~""""""""~'''"='__''''''''''"_''' " ~-~""""",==.-~--"""""",-",,,,.<,,,,,,=~,,--,.,,,-"--",,,,=,=._=~-~-~...,~~- Page 20 of74, October 17,2002 ZBA Public He3ri:ug Tl1Utscript town of Southold MEMBER ORLANDO: Front yard, side yard setbacks are all tbe same_ . MR_ LUSCIIER: No difference. MEMBER ORIANDO: Using the existing footprint. MR. LUSCHER: I'm duplicating the cape next door. I'm turning a saltQox into a cape_ MEMBER ORIANDO: No other questions. MEMBER TORTORA: CHAIRMAN: While y?u're standing tbere sir, anyone else like to speak; for or against this appJication?No respOJ1$e. J!m going to w<e this ot!t of normal. order and, because oftbe nature of your situation, make a motion that We grant this variance. MEMBER ORLANDO: Second. CHAIRMAN: Allin favor? A11ayes. As soon as we get this in "Writing, wer:L1 give it to YOll, sir. MR LUSCIIER:. Thank you_ 7:50 p.m. Appl. No. 5204 - SANG LEE FARMS. Request for a Variance under Section 100-13, based on tbe Building Department's August 19, 2002 Notice of Disapproval for the reason that tbe farm structure does not meet the definition of a farm stand under Section 100-13. In addition, the Notice of Disapproval states that under Town Code Chapter 47.3A, a farm stand in excess of 1,000 sq. ft. is permitted only with site plan approval from tbe Zoning Board of Appeals. Applicant is proposing to construct a farm building (or structure) which will Qe enclosed on all sides and used as a sales area, open to the public, in addition to tbe existing farm stand sales area. Location of property: 25180 CuR- 48, Peconic; Parcel Nos. 84-5-1.2 and 1.3 (as one lot). CHAIRMAN: Weare ready for you, sir State your name for the record. FRED LEE: My name is Fred Lee, I'm tbe owner and operator of Sang Lee Fanns_ CHAIRMAN: How are you Mr. Lee? MR- LEE: Fine. CHAIRMAN: I've been over your place several times, and taken a look at what you're proposing. Some of which I have concerns. about, some of which maybe we can ease those concerns to a certain degree. Why don't you start and tell us what you want to do. MR. LEE: Just to give you a brief background, I'm the second generation My parents and myunc1e started tbis in the early 40's. Over the course of time, we (inaudible) before we moved to Southold. I moved here with one of my cousins at that time. In tbe early 90's we split up, and have lost contact since then. Over the course of the years, we were strictly wholesale. I operate year round. I pay taxes for 12 months of the year, and I hope to be able to generate (tape change) our production and my production was geared primarily solely for wholesale distribution. The brokers iu Hunt's Point, Manhattan, Boston, Washington, Philadelphia since tbat time I have witnessed ttemendous change in the industry. Currently I can't survive without retail of our fann operation. I wouldn't be here now if we weren't retailing. It now comprises more that.50% of our total gross sales~ That's the main reason we are here today_ We want to expand our ret¡iil operation, and we want to build separate retail shops_ The trailer area just to tb,e south next to where we have the retail stand now is not being utilized as much I had ./"""\ '- è _"~77"'.~··'··_'_··.7."~~~_"_"~-""-'-'_~~=-~__"""'-' ~.-..=~=»~o~____.~__ !'age 21 öf74,Öctdber 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript town öfSöuthold to mO've that out to create space on the to put our potted plants, our herbs, flowers in addition to selling fann produce. I guess the objection from the Building DepartIhent was that We were exceeding the footprint 1000 square feet. We designed the fann stand addition with the help of our architect to. be 1,300 ~(kft.that's 3.j)0' more_ the 300 sq. ft. is important to have fur supporta¡-ea by $Upport I mean two 300' fclPgeràtòrs in·there . . . ' The other code problems we,-e that the farm stand was no.t going to be þI1c:lps,d. Ioperateyear roUnd I pay t;¡xesfor 12 months a year, andr ho.pe 10 be ableto generateaswe hâ"ein pa§t'3 years year round by farming in the gree11houses, I healed the greenhouses and I grow jj):e$C¡\1!).lettl¡c:es, onious, radi$hes, beets, sc:aI1ions, many varieties of\1erbs, and all our cuttings thátWe ¡av,efQî'tl)øspringprodnction. TO able ""!)!lclose.it andheaUt so = don't ¡ave fteezi1Jg vegetables as "Wel1' asfteeiing furín. stand help ifnec,",sa¡;y a par!,ing lot. I don'tkI'1,ow what other questio.us you have. MEMBER TORTORA: You would like to ope,rate the fatm stand year round on a year round basis? MR. LEE: Yes we have over the past 3 years been operating dnring ¡Ire winter months_ We operate our greerlbouses during the winter months and sell our produce dnring the whole year. MEMBER TORTORA: Actually more that 50% of your sales slowly ttansf"rred from wholesale to retail. MR. LEE: That's correct. MEMBER TORTORA: The only question I have, I was loo!,ing at the development rights of where the parking area is. Is parking going to be right on that line? MR. LEE: There is one parking space that overlaps the driveway area" I actually requested input from the Suffolk County Farm Bureau and I have a copy of the letter. They said it would be okay as long as I didn't build structures. For parking or a display area, anything to snpport tbe retail sales. MEMBER TORTORA: So the driveway in a sense is Rt. 48 and ifs back to the farm stand MR. LEE: Yes_ CHAIRMAN: It's my understanding that you were anticipating a basement in this structure and the purpose of the basement was to do what? MR. LEE: To store boxes, paper, bags, cartons" when we set up tomatoes our cherry tomatoes the cartons are about 3 'x3', that's just one case ofa cardboard carton. I bring in 6 to 10 cartons a week for orders. We are putting tbem inside the trailers that we have behind the farm stand now in the basement lack of space. CHAlRMAN: Your utilizing out of your existing garage in the house, is that correct? MR. LEE: That's the current farm stand_ CHAlRMAN: I think you're going to have to give this board a significant amount of latitude in an application of this nature because I'm not positive that the board in my estimation certain members of this board are going to go with the plan. There may be significant modifications of this plan simply because we really don't want to, va¡;y the law as it exists today. We can make minor changes to that law, but we are not going to see significant changes to that law_ I could be wrong my fellow colleagues were m.issing but we are certaiuly going to type the draft of this hearing and we are going to review it. That's my suggestion at this point. MR. LEE: I'm stupefied to hear that. I just need to say that I'm not - from my perspective I feel so much pain being in the agricultural industry. I'm a straight kind of person I follow laws I understand the code of 1,000 sq_ ft. for a funn stand and I feel somewhat perhaps agitated it doesn't apply to where farms stands are in this day and ,age to what's changed_ Many fanns have gone out of business I would be one of them if we weren't retailing right now. My livelihood, my business is dependent on being able to make some of _ __~__·...·_._~c_,,~,,~_~·,,· ,._~__._~,~,. ~_'.~'~~____~~."""'~~__'~. .~",...-_~--.....----",,"~-~-~~,. ~-~--- Page22of74,Oclober 17,2002 ZBA Public Hearing TrlUJScnptc_ Town of South old these c.banges. 1 don't think 300 sq. ft. is lllITeasonable even if! were to put a basemeut 1llldemeath for storage. rmplatl1)ing to move the trailers out which is where I have the boxes, cartons, poly bags and everything else that's where we do our work. We want to create a nice appearance not only the farm stands, bt¡tin the business ¡¡lJ,<lltQuses th¡¡f s what we do. Somejlúng that Southold can be proud of. Those are aJl in!ine with om- plans andl See a negative view_ CHAIRMAN: Not a negative view_ It's the fact that - it's just the degree of how far you can go ftom the existing law. We are silnply an. appellate board We do not necessarily change or modifY laws. These are the codes of the town· and I can tell you, that :there was a significant am01lllt of time spent in the construction of this farm stand còde. I waS p¡¡rt, of that, I sat in on it, I voiced my opinions on it, and we had many farmers come in and you're absolutely correct some may not be farmers today, but that was their choosing. Some of ·them sold their'p,ropeJ;ty'and still live here, but I don't know to what àegree we oan actually modifY this code:. To an extent ofgiving you I ÒO% or 90% of what you are actuaJly reqµesting, and t¡Ùeil you the .. ."... '. ......-. _,.:: .:-' ...... -' ". '. .,.." '. -,'. '.:.'. "";'. ':" ::. .c,., '.'. . '. . '-':' . . .' _. :'::.' :.' '.' ,,'. .: -'.' -''-:''''''. . '-.": . . ..,."... '. ':',.: ", . ..-: '. '. ..:.:. _', . .:.." '. ~"-,..:..,, \. -' _'.' _ '" ',. 'I n,ason,why. I.sp""t sq= tJme, sfupe this,application came in IboJáng at soine, of :the e,p"ting fàrm stands that e:x:ísl; s"me ò:f'theÌrí bave sp,aqe heirtets in th!'J1l some o~ them - to keep peciple.Wam1 in the, wiDíerti'me: pàrticuJ;ady tþ.e ones that a¡;e 0PeJ!l. to 1'h¡,.p;ortheast J:l¡at face the northel\St so ta speak. Of cou¡¡se they m:e open fr!:1ttt 1 goo$!< the _li,~st p'os'¡¡ilYle fuµe wonld be spm~ tin1e in làte Aprí1 ¡'arly May they emt aIlM:b.e wáy tIn¡ough Thanl<:.Wvinginto eill;,~ ~Gernber ~ it rea1Jy sjgnifi=tI)C get¡; cold and nobody r~1W w.ants tí> s1:1md.out th~re a: that)ÄWt T/Ji>t>j¡ some of ti¡" dîsCüuIse thai¡ I1w ~tteIÌ from some of iliepeople that I've discussad tlli" wftif¡. lIi'iw 1 t!Qn't W<U;~ YQU, 1p. gp !!\Way ftom heffj àt1<1 ~ay that)'ve just wastei! my: money in d"~ this but¡'nt teli~\yPu w"" may pµsh this. tò the";tfmi" My .s~esti"J1 tò fhis bdard\-let m, continne'tbis dü\Wn the ¡¡:n", s"!.ding .'tlitis gl'lltleman 10 my right a:p.d yom l¡'fi Mr. Orlando. MEMBER ORLANDO: Thank you Gwy, for that introductio11- Have you spoke to the Planning Board at aU? MR- LEE: We met with the planning Board before we got a disapproval ftom the Building Department 1"e presented the sa¡ne plans about wbat d.ìtectiøn we might be headed. As far as I know, they granted their approval on the way the farm stand Wàs constnlcted was the building too close or- MEMBER ORLANDO: Basically they accepted your site plan? MR. LEE: I believe that's the case. MEMBER ORLANDO: Pending on the outcome of the Zoning Board. MEMBER TORTORA: A letter to the Zoning Board of Appeals on October 4 the Planning Boardfeels an enclosed farm stand is a good way to encourage farms to be open year ro1llld and has no objection to this application, however, the board notes that a farm stand is not open all yeM existing øn this application. MEMBER ORLANDO: No other questions. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Horning? MEMBER HORNING: I dø have a question. The area that you're using for agriculture, what is the zoning? MK LEE: AC. MEMBER HORNING: You're aware of what uses are permitted? MK LEE: Yes. MEMBER HORNING: I'm curious, did you think of any ideas - let me backtrack _ the existing residence - do you use that as an office also? '___<~¡V'.·__"_~___~~~"__~'__~~O-O=-~_~""""._'__~_~=~~""'l...""""'~ Páge 23 of74, October 17, 2002 ZÐA Public Hearing Trattscript,-, Town of Southold MR. LEE: Part of it, yes. .MEMJ;ŒR H9RNWG:. Di<i youct)lltemplate in auy fashit)1l auy deSigIlplauswhere Yt)U wt)uld n¡ake au addttiClt¡. to that, au "Jcteµsit)n oftha1; off your residence area aud incorporate enlarging the eJcisting . building? MR_ LEE: Yes aud we were not happy with the design feature of the house, We felt that by making·a new structure I don't know if yon have a copy of the elevation that would be mote opellandpresentable, The. existing s:1ructµre; rd like to:l1S~ as a ~:upport areä~ that's our plans. _ We can't just say thát Weare gOÎ]1g to h"g, weigh, tie, bunch, rinse,and do an of the lettuce work in 300 sq. ft. of space. By relllOVÍt1g the trailers wb¡ch Iì¡."ve fpm.ofas \V~ll asi;heí1flt bed,.".ea aud thedqck .".~a jnnnedíately sotl(1t qfw);ere the ofIJpe is Ìhau¡~~"Iot t)fare¡¡ tha1; I'\1i.gíVÚlguP and we fleed the existing sp"pe tD' beabIe tt)Ç()Il'fi1luett) dt) wþ.at we a1;edÞing. ME'MBER HORNING: I'm JUst suggestingT oon't know this, I'm jnst suggesting thaUt ¡night be au e~sier llwpleifít was incorpo!"'ted ÍI)to the e'listing structure somehow. It.tníght be an eas~r hwdle to overcome_ I'm suggêSting that I do¡it know. NANCY STEELMM'" I'm the architect for this project. I'd like to address that. This project has been we've beep involved wii;h this project for" year and a half Or so. ()ur first was the Building 'bepartJ:\1ept Mike Verity adding on to the existing residence, as you are proposing. Between Mr. 'Kasner and. Mike it was really detennined that we tried that, it ~as OUI fITSt choic'; they did not accept'i!. -:\ --- -- ; -- - --- -- - ; -- -' -- -- -- -- - - -'" With th\> Planning Bøard, we had" work session they we very supportive of this_ It is not pernritted in CHAIRMAN: Questions for Ms. Steelman? MEMBER TORTORA: Well I'm not quite SUIe about CHAIRMAN: It's very simple. Fanu stauds don't have basements. Fanu stands are normally temporary structures. Fanu stauds are usually on slabs. Fanu stands are sometimes on stone floors. IfI'm voting on this application right now unless somebody hits me over the head with something it will not exceed 1,000 sq. ft. I suspect that a bam storage building can be built associated with it and that Mr. Lee can do all of those :fìihctions that he has to do in that bam accessory building close to, next to, contiguous to, adjacent to, this fanu stand and that particular bam cau have a basement in it just as the old root cellars were and the sprout houses that existed and still exist throughout this entire town. I also suspect that the doors and I thinkjt's an_ extren1ely attractive structure there's no question about it and the doors shall remain open during the entire period of time that weather penults and the doors can be closed at that particular time. I don't snspect that this structure should have any air conditioning or any other formal system other thau a temporary heating system for those winter months when you need it. I would suspect th"t the system be a hot air system and I don't care if it's. gas or whatever would exist in that situation. I am not in any way ttying to modifY things or curtail this man's operation, but I do not want to see a rnajor transformation for the other issue 6fwhatwe see.in fann stands today. I think the positive issue here is one of the issues that the Planning Board recogIlizes that now I have not discussed this with the planning, nor with the chairmau as a fact this fanu stand is off the road which I think is a very positive step a very, very busy road as we know. That's the way I look at the application I wouloo't reduce this by just brutalizi¡lg your magnificent plau,Ms, Steelman, but just trom the availability oflooking at what fanu stands really exist aud sitting in on those meetings during the period of the time that we've reconstructed this law_ That's my suggestion. CHAlRMAN: Ms. Steelman wants to say something first. MS. STEELMAN: I'd like to speak- CHAlRMAN: To me. ~ I "-.-. ~ I \, . ,~ ....... Page 24· of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript ~. Town ofSonthöld Ms. STEELMAN: Ti¡e issue of the basement is not an issue with the Building Department because it's not specìfic to fannstand cöqe that they not have a basement The concem that they have primarily was the cooling system, that's the code, the cooling in the summer for the types of produce iliat they have and also t!¡atitwasIl<)t 9pen On one side iliat was the other CO¡lCern, From my w;tde,standingthe two issues iliat T\09'ciJ'e¡avarìa¡lJ;e the other issu, was< exceeding 1,ODO sq. ft. iliat was. really the heart of ÚJ.e issue. Ti¡e lJas~was also in addition to storage CHAIEMAN: I have no prolJlems with..the 1,000 sq. ft_ of retail space and lhave no prolJlems with th, systelJ.)8 going On the outside of the lJuilding or any other place other tJwn the lJasemeht lJecause I d"n't thìrÍk farm stands sh"nld have lJasements. That's just an opinion. MS. STEELMAN: That's not it's nqt stated in th.e code tl1at you ,c!(I1J1ot have lJase¡nents- Ç'HAIRIyI:AN: .No, it dicbit say it was; lJut if yo)]. want a d~ision out of this lJoard and ifso¡nelJody asked me my opi.níon tl1at'smy opinion after reviewi¡lg; this application, Thafs not cut and dry mqst people know me that I'illhot sreadfust. . 1).1s. STEELMAN: There's "ne more point I would really like to make and it is a little more personal, mainly b""aus, it involves th' mechanics in Southold T"wn and wlJat lJas been allowed for wineries are stilJ open"ehded the wineries as agripultural means have been able to use it for retail, have actually been . I think in this situation you have far too many restrictions 165 acres J11at they are .trYing .utilize . whereas the wineries are ablè to sell many othertlrings besìdèS their wine, and I think that there should be a balance. I'm not trYing to encourage I think it might be worth Iookingat when you start to :see the Uses. MEMBER HORNING: Is the fann stand the only outlet for retail produce on a farm in an ag zone? Is iliat what you are saying? That's what code says. MEMBER TORTORA: The bam could not do it MEMBER HORNING: You could not have an accessory building- MEMBER TORTORA: Barn with retail sales. MEMBER HORNING: I needed verification on that FRED LEE: I don't mean to take up a lot of your time, but I had to say a couplè of things about what you said before. Out of all of the fann fàmilies that I personally know everyone that sold their farmland didn't sell it for a profit, they sold it because they could not farm any more_ If! could do a support function 175' away, November it's ~aining, October I can't expect the women that work with my wife to Carty bags oflettuce baskets and a box 75-100' feet away and consider that sufficient production retail lettuce packs for vegetables. CHAIRMAN: I wasn't suggesting that, I was suggesting 1/3 closer. MEMBER TORTORA: I can't determine the assessment of the need for a variance_ CHAIRMAN: But you are the first to say when a variance becomes a use variance. MEMBER TORTORA: What make an issue CHAIRMAN: Ms. Steelman I just want to make a comment regarding your situation about wineries. I disagreed with the Town Board at the time. They took a special exception criteria away, and the special exception power away from this board in the granting of wineries. That's one of the issues I've always disagreed with. Yon are absolutely correct Mr. Lee let's go on and see if there's anyone else who'd like to speak Mr. Wickham I see has his hand up_ Thank yon for the presentation sir. - - - ,-----~-..~~~=,"'-~=~'.,,""'.=-"=,~-=._'=---=.."'- ~..-.~~-~--=-~,.",.....-=,.,.'-""""~~ P~ge 25 of74, Oètôberl7, 2002 ZEA Public Hearing Transcript Town of Southold THOMAS WICKHAM: My name is Tom Wickham. I'm a farmer in Cutchogue_ Several weeks ago I stood before this board to urge you to twn down an application. Tonight I'm here again this time to reconunend granting th~ request for a variance. The legislation goveriring farm stands written just a few years ¡¡go is, in my opinion, not a realistic approach to regulating farm stand structures. While I'm sure it was well intended, I do not believe 1,000 sq_ ft. is a realistic condition. The new language refers to, approvingly? farm stands on the b¡ick of truck and trailers a nice touch perhaps for some, but hardly for a modem bRsiness to live with. I might add that our business began off the back of a truck after WWIL If we were to continne at thàt level, I wauW not be befure you tonight This legislature refers 00 keeping farm stands in an unfiníshed state, U11heated and open to. the weather on at least one side. Bnt farm businesses in ordèrOO survive ·need to' opérate as many months of the year as possible. Can you imagine trying 00 attract pa¡yiÌ1If.~ustome~s WOO·a fí:.eezin~ windy structu¡-e? T awI! policy l:eqognizes thej¡;¡¡portance of farm& and fàtJ;n.in~try it's·in every one "f o.ur·docmrrents_ Itis f!:te center of.p!à~l1i¡tg'futtl¡:is OOwn. Thátpolicy ...1 :;.r"if'¡' .111,. ...::ì;hl·- :,·J'I'I !i,!:,':""1h.' ¡; ;"I~ ...':'1 .:'·i'¡/ìll,g-'J:ife:~~$tð1J~Y~<fÞ~:Sì1fG_¢ssW:r~_~-_~~~-£nture ,'. . ;, ¡... ...... . 1;1:11 r. .'..1 \'~ :... j,' ...·P...:.I.·I I, "I'il'", :'.~ ~i~~:'~·I;~~':';. T':.í· Ii "f:liI.,1-';;:~'IÏ!'-~Li-;."':lf\¡8! 1.11Irh'.~ ·.j ~I~ ,;,1-1,' "'I/.~ ::I'd ,"\I!\ ,'ill, .:~' :.'. :1..... I'" :I~\';"', 'II'., ;'1...... II ..1'.1 I·..· 1'.1.1:1..' I iI..· .~·.i·...· =:.Iïl ...1-:1 ,':-, ".... :~;!~ III ·.'\I"'.,··.~_ .;1' ..\.~,·.~;i 1'1 .~.. '." 11.'; ;. '.... I ':'1 ..... ~,' I _, . :1 U !.,'..... 10:..1.'............ I::. '.. dl'!'II;"';1'11 ' '\.' MIJiW.¥ ·'lI;l ,\<,"!lP¡leSi. l-ixt?< ard,eepmg uJ? WI"" 1,Ire farn\Ît]g end;òJm;¡~t, aiJ.d mlly are' cJ;Íìi.œl to the 8\'00""; bfthis pperation. . CHAIRMAN: T4ank YoU. Y ~ sir, can you state your name for f!:te record? ROBERT VANBOUR,GII)IDIEN: rm Bob VauBou.rgindieu, I've known Fred and Karen for many years. I wQ\Ûd like, to ~e this boatd look.positivelyon his tequest. The reason being as he said agriculture has evolved over the years, I've seen ~griculture evolve rapidly oyer the years also. I think.this board should IQok positively 9'Yer this applieution, and at the same time review the farm stand law that was writt,n just a few years ago. ·Xt is in dire need of updating. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes ma'am, kindly state your name for the record please. PRUDENCE HUDSON: My name is Prudence Hudson. I manage the farm stand in Cutchogue, Sang Lee Farms, and I must s~y and really reasonable in tenus of the kinds of requests that have been before this board. We try to keep the farm stand open as I~teas we can eve.tyyear, and by January it is miserablll. :pllople are. getting out of their cars, they come into that farm stand as fast as they can and they get out off!:tere as fast as they can. As far as working there, it is really uncomfortable. It is not another huilding going up. We WàI1t to be in agriculture. This is what we really wantto do_ right next to the parking lot, people bring their so he doesn't have to have another building to put up just for storage and it's right f!:tere, it's convenient 4e could continue to operate a farm stand and! be attractive to the public We needhlllp. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes- GERRY WOODHOUSE: My name is Geny Woodhouse. I grow wholesale in Orient and I am a consumer ofprodQCts rrom Sang Lee Farms, and in my opinion, Sang Lee, like Wickhams Farms, is represeutingthll best that we have to offer here on the North Forlc Recently I was with a woman who said that the best 1:hing about Sang Lee was that she could go in there with her eyes closed and buy anything and know th~t the quality was absolutely outstanding, and to achîeve that kind of quality that required that the people 'Y40 are producing our food and growing it have the best possible environment to do their work. I trust Fred and Karen as. growers to know what's best for them to survive to produce the kind of quality that they are kn"W11 fOT.. With a farm like Sang Lee, there is nO reason for us to shopping at fann stands. When yoU go to many of the fartn. stands out here, they migbt have open sides, they might not have basements, but I guarantee the maj ority of the products that many of them are sellíng are not grown by the people who are operatj:q.g those fartn. stands right in that area. Here you have an example of people who are doing the best job that theyc'Ul to provide us with the best possible food that we can have. Iff!:tere is any 'Yay that YOll can want this variance, knowing that there needs to be some change ín Town Code, I urge you to do so. _ <",.w,",~,~,_?__".._,,,-~_y._=~"__=,,*~,___~,,,=_~~~_ -~- ~ l'ageo26 of 74, October 17, 2002 ZBAPublic H¢aring Transcript Town ofSouthald GHAIRMAN: Anyone else? Anyone like to speak against the application? I have to ask that qnestion, d'on't get illi\d, Seeing no hands, any other qnestions for the board. Seeing no hands, we'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision. MEMBER ORLANDO: Second. CHAIRMAN.: All in favor. All ayes. What that very simply means, Mr. Lee, is that we will get together and disCl!Ss this. I have not voiced my opinion on anybody other than what you asked me tonight and we'll go ftomthere. It's ¡¡)deliberation process. MR. LEE: one way or the other ClL;\IRMAN: very soon, Vlithinthe next couple of weeks. Thank Y01.1. We have 62 days, but we liever Jaké· 62 days. B:owever we eRd take 62 days recenJ!y on an applicmi(>n down on PeCQnic Bay 011 a large white bird. PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 8:30 p.m. Appl. No. 5189 - SHIRLEY KRAMAND KRAM FAMILYTRUST. Request for a Variance under Section 100-242A, 10(j-239AB, and 100~244B, based on the Building Inspector's May 6, 2002 Notice ofDisapprQval. Applicants propose a new accessory garage with a setback at less than 35' ftom the frQnt lot line, and to construct llew additions and alterations to a dwelling in an existing nonconforming location, with setbacks at less than 75' ftom the btùkhead. Location of Property: 100 West Lane, Southold; Parcel 88-6-12. TIM FITZGERALD: We need the garagè. The alternative of course is not to pnt it in the front yard, but to put it in the rear yard. I think with regard to the garage, you ought to consider the fact that the right of way under the Angel Shores subdivision is a common area and there's no development. In addition the area surrounding where the garage is proposed is_a conservation easement extending at least a 100' from the property line, any development, clearing what have you in that area. Any construction that would take place on the privately owned properties immediately adjacent to the Smith property would be more than 100' away, and it would be shielded ITom the garage by the existing trees in the right of way which can't be cleared. MEMBER TORTORA: Where is that conservation easement? MR. FITZGERALD: I have a copy of the portioll of the subeRvision map and a portion of the C&R's which shows the location of the easement and-the common properties which are tieatedin the C&R's. The green represents the area in which development is not permitted, and the blue in the middle of all that is the Kram property. CHAIRMAN: This is the nature of a minor subdivision? MK FITZGERALD: What? CHAIRMAN: This entire C&R issue regarding these 4 lots. MR_ FITZGERALD: Those lots are part of Angel Shores_ CHAIRMAN: They are a minor subeRvision of Angel Shores or what is part of the total subeRvision? MK FITZGERALD: Part of the total - it is cQvered in the C&R's which are part of the subdivision map_ CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Are you - do you have something else you'd like to say? ==--~'~'='......~"""""",......~.'~= Page27 of74,October 17; 2002 ZBA Pub1k He,ru,g Transcript Town of South old MR. FITZGERALD: No. ÇffNRMAN: rxn a little concexned about the issue this xnay be a one or two stQry hQuse. If it's a 2-story house; we need tos,^, what the 2"' story is going to look like. MR. FlTZGE~D: . The point of that was tQ eover as much as We could. They are not sure what they want to dQ at this point. The ter>der>cy is ¡rom the inforxnatiQr> it would be I-story we have a preliminary drawing of that We would be willing tú'.c1assifY that it would be I-story if that would make the board happy. CHNRMAN: You're goiµg to give,.µs 1J.ie drawing? MR. FlTZGE~D: I could show it to yoµ, I Ç<Q!y haW one copy. The propoSal includes the entire footprint Qf what we're requesting app¡:qvai fur if it is just for this . what's across 1J.ie back is not inch1dedc CIlAIRMAN: What is acrosS the back? Just the deck or- MR. FITZGERALD: No, it's part of what we would propose as the building envelope. MEMBER TORTORA; The Buildi11:g Department disapproved this map? It says this map is dated - and rm very concemed about this - this map is dated after ille notice of disapproval was written. Tbis map was dated June 19th -ille notice of dìsapproval was written ille month before- MR. FITZGERALD: Tµe only changes that were made were editoria1, illere were no substance changes_ MEMBER TORTORA: the Building Department. MR. BTZGERALD: Yes. MEMBER TORTORA: Is there a CO on the deck? MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know. MEMBER TORTORA: The reason rm asking is you're using iliat as the existing line to the house is 42' and this survey says single family house but we don't have anything in our files that actually shows where that was determined ille42'. MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know - it never came up. MEMBER TORTORA: The other thing iliat gave me a little concern is in the Notice ofDisapprova1, I noticed ille lot cQveragewiill the proposed construction is 7% and your plans note 19.14% - that's a big difference. MR; FITZGERALD: It is. MEMBER TORTORA: I have no idea how they came up wiill 7% lot coverage when your plan is 19%. MR; FITZGERALD: It is indeed. I've been over it a number of times. MEMBER TORTORA: Third question is can you get that garage closer to ille house? MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. MEMBER TORTORA: Howmuchcloser? ~"<"_'_~_"_","~~_~~~ë'+'_~"~_~_=<"'""PO'_.,,,,,,~~~,,,,,,,,_~~=~~__ ~""""",_~..""""",=~~,~=n>±~~> P~g~28 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Publi<; Hearing Transcript Town of South old CHAIRMAN: 3' wh~t can we do here? MEMBER TORTORA: About the easements, how much closer can we get it? Your drivewa~ is goingtO' "ome in ITom ]¡ere presumably? It's going to come in like so. How much closer can you "om" to the house? CHAIRMAN: What do you want 10xlO? MEMBER TORTORA: 1 don't know what the plans are and you're asking what he can do. Recess 8:20 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. Motion to reconvene. JAMES FIt'ZGElI,ALD: Make it 10 feet betw~en the ]¡ouse and the. garage, which would make it 13 f""t ftom this propertý line, but I think it would have to stay at 3 feet. MEMBER TORT()RA; You need fire access for vehicles. No matter what, you need fire access; access for fIre vehicles to come. If you're going to make it over here I think you're at 7 so you need to be able to do this if you have to do this. MR. FIt'ZGERALD: 14'. and what- MEMBER TORTORA: That's the conservation easemenC MR. FlTZGERALD: The requìrement- CHAIRMAN: W ell the fire vehicle is never going the get behind it becanse a fire vehicle today needs aboutJ 3-16' to make the turp bnt I'm just saying to fIght a fire you need at least 5' ITom the property line. You've got to be able to work on the building on the property that's the problem_ You're going to go 10 and 5? You go along wit]¡ that good. 5 off the west property line and 10 from the- MEMBER TORTORA: 10+3 would be 13 and 5. MEMBER HORNING: Mìnimnm of 10. MEMBER TORTORA: Can you work with that? MR. FITZGERALD: Yes if it's okay ITom the standpoint of the [Jre equipment access. MEMBER ORLANDO: That Will work. CHAIRMAN: The garage is how many stories? MR. FITZGERALD: One - and it's ouly 20x20 which is allotted size to the property line_ CHAIRMAN: You can have the plans back. MEMBER HORNING: Mr. Fitzgerald the line of hedgerows that are cedar - are they mature Or young? MR. FITZGERALD: Very mature_ CHAIR1\¡[AN: Pretty closed in, too. MEMBER HORNING: That's what I was suggesting too - 5' is mÌ11imnm there because ITom the property line those things must take up 5' now. ~~-- Pàg~290f74-, October 17,2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town ofSouJhold MR. FITZGERALD: It would work at 3' because it's stak~d and- rvœJ'v!BEß OE+-ANPO; Tbispiece of property, th.ere's no tr~e re¡¡¡oval on that 011e - tlutt has to stay as is, There are dead cedars Îl)th.ere. MR. FItZGERALD: The u"æ ,,:"ould not thrive after th.e garage went np in tlutt area, It would be very close. CHAIRMAN: Anything else? MEMBER TOßtORA: Front yard ",tback is 13 on th.e proposed garage and ~ on th.e property li11"? CHAIRjMAN; Mr. Fi~gerald we could. uSe a copy of this - if you could bring a copy'dôwn. Anyoll"else like tô speak? P¡easestå1:eyôut nam~ for therecord. SUSAN KALIN: My name is SusanKalin. He ownS .th.e tree lot tlutt is adjoining this prpperty· I know there's CHAIRMAN: That's why we changed It. MEMBER ORLANDO: It's 5' now. CHAIRMAN: 5 and B. MS. KALIN: Oh 5 and B. It's supposed to be 35- CHAIRMAN: It depe11ds upon what you've determined. It depends upon which way th.e driveway comes in and what th.e Building Department determiues. 1 will uever second guess what the Building Department determines. I have to tell you. That's the story. That's uot a sarcastic statement, th.at's a pragmatic statement MEMBER TORTORA: Which lot are you? MS. KAlJN: I'm 4- MEMBER TORTORA: Number 42? Or you're adjoiuing lots 42 which is ou the weste MS. KALIN: MEMBER TORTORA: 1 know where it is uow. It's on back, I'm trying to see- MEMBER ORLANDO: And tlutt right of way basically is not developed_ CHAIRMAN: No. MR. FITZGERALD: Conservation easement is ou th.e west side. CHAIRMAN: Right MEMBER ORLANDO: So you own lot 41&42? MS. KALIN: Excuse me? MEMBER ORLANDO: You own both. lots 41&42? Two lots you own? ~ ,-,~---~>,------~~"~_.~------,",~-.þ, ~=""---=-=--_.,,",,=, _.~- Pag<: 30 of74, October 17; 2002 ZBA PUbijc Hearing Transcript Town of Southold MS. KALIN? MEMBER ORLANDO: You have them aiL ME.M:BER T9RTqRA: ISj;l'tth¡,tgoing to give you with th¡,t conserv"tion easem,mt the way it right apgl,s Üp there. Isn'tthat going to. giVe you" (:H.AIRMAN: Come up apd look at this. This is all conservation you can't build in any of that green area_ What we are doing is moving the gaT"ge back and over- MS. KALIN: SO it's going back 13 here and then over another 5. (:H.AIRMAN: A total of 5. Yon have to provide enough access to get between the h",use and around ftom _the GPposite díreytion and thaf;;, tbis direction, All we are domg is moving it down.and over. Over a little and çlo'\vn. You have to prO'vid~ access a1;oùnd her" for fìrÞ emerge)1cy vehicles. Thank Y01L Auybady e1St> like to speak? Hearing;no further comment, I'll make a motion closing the heariing reserving decision until later. PLEASE SEE MINUTE FOR RESOLUTION *** 8:50 p.m. Appl. No. 5181 - THOMAS SAMUELS AND NANCY STEELMAN. Request for a Variance tmder Section 100-242A, 100-33, based on the Building Department's June 13, 2002 Notice of DisapprovaL Applicants propose to construct additions and alteratious to an existing accessory bm1ding located in a nonconforming front yard location (rather than a rear yard), at 7090 New Suffolk Road, New Suffolk; Parcel No. 117-6-7.1; (former CTM Nos_ 7 and 4 combined as one). CHAIRMAN : You had me going for that driveway in you house for a little while, but I came down on Sundaymorning and yO!) g¡¡ys m!)st have been at church. MEMBER ORLANDO: The dog greeted me. CHAlRMAN: Then I turn around and I said they do have fi-ontage on Fanning Road. But it was interesting coming down the driveway. Very nice. THOMAS SAMUELS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN: What would yO!) like to do here? MR. SAMUELS: I'd like to explain very briefly my simation where the house was built in 1840 approximately and the barn was bnilt abont the same time_ About 1960, and a second Door was put in creating a fi-ont yard on that side and . Because that barn in what is considered the front yard and the side yard there is. no way to add to it without a variance. I think it's the interpretation in the code that an accessory structure is not to be bnilt in a fi-ont yard, defined in the building phase, all the way to the road. 1 can understand that.thefi-öntyard 50' setback means_ This building would be 10Q' fi-om the road. I feel it's in your capacity to look at the code, at some point you look at that fi-ont and side yard situation particularly accessory bnilding gives you no end of trouble. CHAIRMAN: We've been asked to look at it with the building envelope and create a building envelope which includes off the primary structure and all accessory structures and thereby once the building e)1'1elope is created, as long as we didn't go and breach the building envelope you'd be allowed to do that. We're just having trouble with wording. MK SAMUELS: I'm just here to answer your questions. -,,- ~-'--'-'._~'=~"-~~'~-'~"~'."=~~~'~~-~'-'-"~~=' f".. \,,--: -ii' f" j 1 ·1 ,'r ---~","""" Pàge 31 of74,October17,2002 ZBA PuNic Hearing Transcript Town otSouthold CHAIRMAN: The barn is how many stories - the addition rather? JIiIR. SAMUELS: It is one story CF!ÆIRMAN: 16x30. L have n9 objection to it Mr_ Horning anY q¡:testions? MEMBER HORNING: I haye no questions. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Orlando. MEMBER ORLANDO: The existing barn - also when I was there you must have been at church also - but 1 took the lib¢rty 9f walking¡¡toU1)d. The~xisting barn - is that. going to stay in tact? Ou that one side. ME.. SAMUELS: The foundatiön wön't stay the. way it is. It will b.e r¢sto;red: in a mOr¢ beautiful stat¢. Beautift¡lm~aning new storage. MEMBER ORLANDO: New storage. You're the architect who drew this up? MR. SAMUELS: Yes. MEMBER ORLANDO: No other questi9ns. CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Tmtora_ MEMBER TORTORA: I don't have any questions except - do you have access to Fanning? MR. SAMUELS: I have access to Fanning. There is a driveway. We have a gate there and we nse it occasionally, but our primary driveway is . It has been - that's why We when the former owner used that certainly we have access. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Tom_ We'll see if anybody else has any objection and have a good evening. Anybody else like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision U1)tillater. PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 8:54 p.m. Appl. Nos. 5181 and 5230 as Amended - MARTEM MANAGEMENT (A. MARlNAKAS). Location of property: East Side of Stars Road, East Marion; Parcel No. 22-42-20&28 (as one lot). Applicant requests Variances for a tennis court, based on the Building Department's April 2, 2002 Notice of Disapproval, to locate a tennis court structure: I) at less than 5' from the lot line(s), (2) in a yard other than a pennitted rear yard, and (3) with a lot coverage over the code limitation of20%, and (4) based on the September 20, 2002 Notice of Disapproval for fencing over 4' in height, Section 100-23 L P A1RICIA MOORE, ESQ: Good eyening, I'm here on behalf of Mr. & Mrs. Marinakas who are here this evening S<) hopefully we can finish up òur hearing_ I snbmitted a - to the board members - a landscape plan ànd a site plan that we prepared fm your review and all of the issnes I think were raised at the last hearing were answered either by way of the site plan or by letter which identified the specific questions and I have it noW which parallels the letter that . Very quickly the site plan has the location that the building code itself _ The material is an asphalt material not in a pattern I think that determines the' asphalt is ,a quieter material than stones MEMBER ORLANDO: í\ , ' " :- ,_"~~~~,_,~~~_"~~""_,""""",,.=~,..,.,_.,.,",,,,,_~~~L~ -""-'_.,,',.,'=_.,,,,"",.;....,..~~-'"=""""""""=".......,-=-~~---~~- Page 32 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA PubIicHoarlng Transcript Town of So nth old MRS, MOORE: One of the questions that were raised outside we did have the landscape pictur<)S fi:om the landscape architect and what he tried to do is incorporate a mixture of materials, One is the fence ¡tself is å black vinyl fence which has _ He contacted the Planning Department to make rec")lllliet)~ationsa& f!II as the plants and the Ipcust trees and the local cherry tr~s and di:s)/etsedwith 2' high !lIborvitae so it will be löw visibility and then trees for the higher visibility. I think th'e,åi1SWe,rs- CHAIRMAN: You didn't recdve this. letter from Mr.Bombadiete? MRS. MOORE: That's the list of questions - yes. My letter was in response of his letter was a list of items ' tlÌat were raised at the hearing , CHAIRMAN: Did you ask if the sub-floor of the tennis court - MRs. MOORE: Well only ifyou'te in - he's not actuá1ly building it- CH.i\!JP4AN: Cöuld you ask him to tell us where he has constructed one so we can See this composite material that they are using_ MRs. MOORE: I could - here you are. CH.i\!JP4AN: Manny, we recently granted a tennis court lot somewhat smaller than yours and then at a discussipn with the gentleman who owns the company who was constructing it - you have any idea or conld you contact this company and ask them to get in touch with us so we could see what the composite material looked like? MANNY KARA V ANIS: One of the things is CHAIRMAN: Is it actual asphalt? MR. KARA VANIS: It's hot asphalt. CHAIRMAN: It's hot asphalt. That's what the problem is. It's not a composite. This is an actual asphalt court? MRS. MOORE: 1.5" asphalt and 6 layers each hot asphalt. 2 coats of c-o-I-o-r-n-t, a brand name MEIvlBER ORLANDO: They jnst built the driveway. MRs. MOORE: Pardon me? MEIvlBER ORLANDO: You just described the driveway. CHAIRMAN: Can you let us know where they built one and ask if we can take a look at it or something? MR. KARA V ANIS: One of them is a 10' temlis court company the other is east end. CHAIRMAN: You don't know which one you're going to use? MR. KARA V ANIS: Probably the east end. CHAIRMAN: That makes it easy then. Ask him if we, could take a look at one that's already constructed. MRS. MOORE: They are located in Jamesport. - ""-"~-'-~"-~"--<---~-,--~~'.~_._~- ",-,~"-,,--~~=..-._,-~,,,--~--,~~~, ---.-......-=- ~ Page 33 or74, October 17, 2002 ZBA l'ublkBearing Transcript ToWll or Southold CHAIRMAN: I can dose the hearing, and before I make a decision I can take a look at what- MRS. MOORE: That's fine. CHAIRMAN: What about drainage? MRS_MOORE: We showed on the site plan there is a drainage detail-let me See wh!'fe it is - here it is I&"wideby ¡O" deep perimeterinc1udes gravel drainage. MEMBER TORTORA: What'S.the lot coverage - do you kuow - with the reduction wm the tenni>; court? MRS. MOORE: 1'4 have to have.a surveyüI: recalculate. MEM:8IìR TORTORA: Cap. you have it re-calculated. Mr. Marinakas? Excuse me, I am terrible at n¡mtes, '\IIliversal- all acroSs (he ®át4. I dou't make any exceptions. Let's.talk abont what amount 2.5' from the property line. ' MRS. MOORE: Keep in mind the fact that he owns both parcels. MEMBER TORTORA: He owns lot 23 and lot 21? MRS, MOORE: Yes_ MEMBER TORTORA: You owu both lots, 23 & 21? MRS. MOORE: Yes the original proposal put the tennis court on lot 23, and lot21 is a different corporation , but it's the same family. MEMBER TORTORA: Same owner? MRS. MOORE: Yes same owner. MEMBER TORTORA: This lot, this tennis court would be visible from lot21, it would be visible from lot 22, and it would be visible from Stars Road_ Is that correct? MRS. MOORE: Well the intention of the landscaping was to shield the visibility oflot 21 and Stars Road is landscaping is on the side I'lus what he has au his own property is berms and a lot of dense shrubberies in the entrance. MEMBER TORTORA: What is the purpose of putting the landscaping along the lot line of21 ifit's your lot? MRS. MOORE: Because somebody asked for it CHAIRMAN: Because it's an undesignated lot. MRS. MOORE: It's got grass and trees on it. CHAIRMAN: That's what they are requesting. MR. MARINAKAS: 18 trees. h \~- ,r; MEMBER TORTORA: 18 trees? Let me ask you a Teal simple question - you would not even be here except for 2.5', why don't you just move it east 2.51? MRS. MOORE· No_ Accessory structures in a side yard '" I l Î". ~-" ~\ ~"..- ¡,.!" r]!" il; II· ¡t, (' ..,"_.~,~_..~",=.~.".",.--~---.=----,=,"~~--==-=~..-,,~~ ~=-'--~"=""- Page 34 0174, October 17, 2002 ZBA PublkHearing Transcript Town of Soutbold MEMBER TORTORA: A proposed accessory tennis court partially in the front yard and síde yard requíred set back of2.5'. Yes you're right on the priors, as far as the setbacks, you're talking- MRS. M.QORf;: The btril(ti¡:¡gis pretty close tothe road; sotheJandscape architect after he looked at thÌ$ Jj11d re-cous,Ì!lereði!'snot 2.~ tow¡rrd the end of the tenniscot,trt,. and angled it ;t J,íttle bit because of the dinwnsipns of'Z.5 but because he oM1Sthe 2 adjacent properties and. to try to keep the te¡u;ris court away fhnn Stars Roag, he's. pusbing it asfar bacJ." as 4e can without oVerlapping the property lihe, Yes if you want it ¡i,ear Stars Road, th>rt's not a problem. MEMBER TORTORA: What's the distance oflot 21? MRS. MOORE: That is 51 from the property lihe. MEMBER TORTORA: That's not a very big stretch. CHAIRMAN: I think it's 5 and5. MEMBER TORTORA: rd be willing to do away with one of the variances, frankly_ MRS. MOORE: That's fine with us. MEMBER TORTORA: Can we amend that right now? To a minimum of5', there's no variances required on that. CHAIRMAN: Anything else? You're going to give us lot coverage and you're going to give us where a court is constructed so we can take a look at it. MRS. MOORE: CHAIRMAN: We need to know where the tennis court is so we can take a look at this material. MEMBER TORTORA: What conditions MRS. MOORE: 184-110, I'm sorry add 5 in the back. CHAIRMAN: 2.5 more. MEMBER TORTORA: You are at 2.5. MRS. MOORE: Close to 90'. MEMBER TORTORA: At the closest point to Stars Road- MRS. MOORE: You want exact or- CHAIRMAN: You can give us that when - gentleman over there, any questions? MEMBER HORNING: We discussed the fact that there would be no lighting there at all. CHAIRMAN: The fence is 9' in height proposed? 8' black chain link MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER ORLANDO: I believe Mrs. Moore addressed all of our previous concerns_ Page 35 of 74, October 17,2002 ZBAPublic HearúIg Transcript Town ofSffil!hold CHAIRMAN: SO you're goiug to get that for us aud We will go rrom there. MRS_ MOORE: Thauk you. C:EIAIE.MAN: T/laok you. Anybody else like to speak? Yos sir. RAY BOMBADIERE: Hi. I'm Ray Bombadiere. I'm on Stars Road. I wrote the letter- CBA!RMAN: Anyfuing iliat has not beell auswered_ I'm not auswering auy questions auy more_ Every bne of those questions should be directed to us and they'll auswer !hem if we don't. Because I'm not auswering them auymore. MR BOMBADIERE: Okay. ÇH~: T!1e auswer to your questions Mr. Bombadiere, or give us the questions rather that you need iUlsweréd at this pojnt. MR BOMBADIERE: That hasn't been addressed. CBA!RMAN: Right. MR BOMBADIERE: Any question that hasn't been addressed I cau ask? cBA!RMAN: Sme, you cau ask auy questions, I'm just sayiug that I'm uot answeriug auy questions for the board when there's a-consultant or an attomey- MR. BOMBADIERE: FÏI1;t of all I'd just like to say as far as the trees that were plauted, they were really no more than bushes. I have a few pictilles here and you can barely see them. We're very concerned aboµt this. The members of the association you see this white, you get an idea that not much really is done there. It was addressed, but I'm not sure to what degree. After the trees were removed rrom these three lots, there's been more- CHAIRMAN: Did you see the plauts? The most recent plauts - why don't you do this, railier thau put you On the spot - let us coutinue om hearirtg_ We will go out aud make some notes on the piau aud bring the plan back in a;nd we'll reconvene. MR. BOMBADIERE: This is a revised pIau showing drainage? CHAIRMAN: Supposedly it is. MRS. MOORE: I cau point it out for him. CHAIRMAN: We'll recess for about 20 minutes - I don't waut to put you on the spot. Write all of yom questions down that you have aud COWlt the - we'll get the auswers for you. MR. BOMBADIERE: Okay. Can I have the pIau now or do I have to wait? CHAIRMAN: That's the only pIau that belongs to this file so I'd like you to review that pIau. MR. BOMBADIERE: I have a few more qnestions. CHAIRMAN: Sure go ahead. MR. BOMBADIERE: As far as the time of usage- CHAIRMAN: They haven't gotten to that yet. ~_.""'" Page 36of74¡Octobei 17, 2Q02 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of So nth old MEMBER ORLANDO: The daylight hours. MR BOMBADIERE: We at the association on Stars Road are very concerned about how this is going to change the nature of'Stars Road. Everyone wants to make sure that this some members·are dead sçt against it. But w~are. cçncerned about the n9ise, we are concerned about how it's going to look especially after the nCees are cleared - it seems to mean so much to Stars Roa<l Everyone is very concerned that the addition of a tennis bomt is going to look a little awkward tllere- CRAlRMAN: Waita minute Mr, Botobadiere. MEMI;ŒR TORTORA: properties- at the boars! meeting on Stars R9ild as well as the adjoinÌ1:1g MR. BüMBADIERE: That's a corr~ction they were hIlking about Tuesday" CHAIRMAN: No. That's why we want you to review the plans. MEMBER TORTORA: That would be written as it is with all because I· know you have concerns. how you direct your concerns CHAIR.MAN: We are not going to address then>, counselis going to address them. I'm tired of being a sounding board for people who have conslallt questions_ I h~ve no. problem with your questions sir, but I need tø know each one that has not be~n answered so that we can have counsel answer them. Please go outside and write the questions down and submit them to us we will then submit them to counsel. Hopefully sh~'1l answer those questions. She can't answer 10 questions tonight if she doesn't know the answer to them. MR. BüMBADIERE: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN: Don't leave with that site plan because it's the. ouly one_ W e'll rec~ss for 20 minutes. CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen I need a motion to reconvene. MEMBER ORLANDO: Second. CHAIRMAN: All in favor. All ayes. Mr. Bombadiere We are ready and waiting to hear what you have to say so We can wrap this up and go on to the next hearing. MR_ BOMBADIERE: We looked at the plans, they look nice. Weare concerned about the material- CHAIRMAN: They are going to tell us where a court is being constructed, we are going to ask the owners permission to go look at it. If you so choose to think that you would like to go or since you are a president of the association maybe that can be arranged, alright I am very simply going to hit a couple oftennis balls on it and that is the ~xtent of my thing. MR. BOMBADIERE: Do you want me to bring my racket? CHAlRMAN: No_ That's basically the situation at this point. The time of play - as to how early in the mo¡-ning_ The board has the right to place reasonable restrictions, and we will discuss that issue_ That's all I can say. MRS_ MOORE: 7 a.m_ is early enough for this. Do you want to make a schedule for whenever? c\ Page3J of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hemjng Tran&cript Town ofSont!íold CI{AlRMAN: I carrt waít until the Town Board re-reads this transcript here. No one has determined how much bo¡¡'g this' court is going to create, and when we find out how much boing this creates then we will teU you what time the starting time wiU be based upon- MRS. MOORE: Are you serious? I don't know really how to respond to thaL We have aproble~ with the boing level because L think it's reasonable to piupoint the of a&phalt or &Ome other depŒit materiaIs_ You can't Iegi&late so specifically' . CliJAIRMAN: I disagree with you 100% in a residential district, and we did legislate in the last one. MRS. MOORE: If you are in a special perimeter, I don't believe- we are gOÎng to argue oVer a&phalL C8AŒMAN.: Let the Supreme Court make their <leterminati01l- I do¡Ú care. MRS. MOORE:, If the asphalt court doe&n't create a problem with the board, we hope that- CHAIRMAN: What dQ you ~ I'm actually going to do, I'm going to have somebody throw the ball on the oourt and I'm going sO ""e at what degree, at what distance I can hear that balL I'm going to take that circumference, around Mr. & Mrs. Marinakas' court, and I'm going to &ay is that reasonable at 7 a.m. in tlw morni1¡g. That'& what I'm goÎng tocask, that's what I'm going to determine. That's the ertgineering possibility based µpon an evalUation. MRS. MOORE: CHAIRMAN: TJ;¡at's thenonn. That'& the reason the&e hearings take &0 long. MRS. MOORE: Are we ready to- CI{AlRMAN: No. We have one more question. MANNY KARA V ANIS: My name is MallllY Karavanis, I just want to clear up a few things_ CHAlRMAN: I may stop you mid-way, we'U tell you if we do. MR. KARA V ANIS: You &aíd a black vinyl fence. You would still be able to see through it or is it like- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MR_ KARA V ANIS: Because I've seen it where you can't see through iL CHAIRMAN: There's two processes you can use on that. In other words, you can put up wind. screen or you can use slats. MR. KARA V ANIS: Slats you can't see through, right? CliJAIRMAN: One statement at a time. MRS. MOORE: My interpretation is more that you might want to see through it than have the physical barriers that's why we're providing the different levels of vegetation. CHAJRMAN: Which have to be continuously maintained. We're suggesting a drip system on those for irrigation purposes. MR_ KARA VANIS: I just want to thank Mike andhi& wife for coming. Some of these things could J;¡ave beenresolvedhad discussions been said and cotuiesies months ago so we would know - it's a shame we had to get to this point. Nevertheless there is concern about the closeness of the road and how itts going to look. _._~_._"_~~~_~'.__""-'--'~~'_'W__=-.~~'~!~_ ~~--~~~-~---~---= Påge 380f74,Oc'ober 17,2002 Z:~A Public Héaripg Transcript Town of Southold It's amazing a blillch of people gei upset about the yèllow line that was put - Stars Road neVer had a yellow line, it was outrageous - a yellow line On Stars Road the Department ofTraffic - and also at one time they were going to ~dd some lighting I understand on Stars Road_ Then they reduced the speed limit to 35mpIL It's a be311fitj¡l,oad. ItcOllleS to credibility intbings. IthinkMike is a man of his word, 1,.e's going to do "",hat he says. I ¡-espect!1is rightto build his te¡¡nis court, but we want it done very tastefully. It will be done, this w'!š my con""rn, and Iwanted to make that statement. CHAIRMAN : You'll give us that information. Hearing no further comment rn make a motion closing the heáring pen<1ing we receive that infòrmatíon . a)1d the inspectiön. PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 9:23 p.m. Appl. No.4942 -BREEZY SOUND CORP. Request for a Special Exception under section lOO-60B(4), for permission to establish new 68-unit motel with motel office, pool house for motèl g¡¡ests, and motel"manager's apartment, on 7 _13 total acres in this Resort-ReSidential (RR) Zone District. Location of Property: North Side of CX 48. (a!k!a North Road) (opposite San Simeon Nursing Home), (ireenport; ParceI45-01-2.1. PATRICIA MOORE, ESQ: We have a fellow who is building a- CHAIRMAN: While you're putting this up - I hate to bring this issue up but r think we should just allow everybody to take.a look at this and digest it in the audience for the people who would like to see it for a¡'out 2 minutes here. Would everybody please feel fi;ee to come up - we've bee" patiently waiting for a long period of time and- MRS. MOORE: I've provided for the board a memo with regard to the criteria for the special exception, with the interest of time and the hour of the evening_ I set forth all of the standards that are our obligation to you and I just want to remind the board that the special exceptíons prohibit use as far as the zoning code is ,concerned and the presumption that it will not adversely affect the neighborhood given certain reasonable conditions and all of this Griteria will be set forth in the zoning code. Having said that, I have this evening with me I have the principles of Breezy Sound. I also have Kevin Walsh who is the engineer - he G311 address any of the site plan issues the board may have any questions on and he's also provided for the board a color rendering of the site plan So you can see the am.ount of and the ;µnount of vegetation that this site has on it. We have - if you reGall the histdry - certain váriances you've seen if you Were on the board - the history of this property is that in the 80's and '89 it had a building permit, and construction was starte<i The issue of whether ortlOt it's a use permitted to add kitGhenettes became something that the board at tbat time felt that the special exception and the site plan alllevèls need to be addressed at the beginnirlg. That is why we are here before this board special applìcation with the same number of units the design has been improved upon in that it was reviewed environmentally byChic Voorhis and bis, grouP with respect to the top of the bluff the Trustees deemed a wetland area that Was in the front and the town said these people with the buffer - a natural buffer - that too was added to thé site plan and would obviously all be done by a)1dKevin Walsh here. We have addressed all of the issues that were thoroughly addressed and d¿¡lÌed,were reviewed again presently and before the site plan, at least the Planning Board staff has had reviewed ¡;¡lçmg the way and it has. b~en a fact that it is involved in a special exception. There has been a . great deal of reyiew_ We've had two. bites of the apple producing this application - here we are the second time aroun<i I'd l>e happy to address anyone of the points that are listed in the special exceptions listed by criteria, agai11 I CQuld g() down on the. ):ine to each of the standards, but it seems to me that they are ouly testi:f'yWg as to wbatthey faxed ns. That's why rve provided for you a _ Do you have any particular quesiions? MEMBER TORTORA: Do you have public water? "'Y-._7~"~_O'·_~~_~<_·'.~~~~===-~·'--==__"'~"~_ ., ""'-~=_~h~",",==-"'- Page 39 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public He¡¡ring Transcript Town ofSonthold MRS. MOORE: We have pnblic water - we have both. The application fees for the water and sewer and böth . Then they received a credit report. It ended up in litigation. The litigation - the settlement at this point - in fact I have a letter from SuffoJkCountyWaters - it's ready to be wrapped up. Th.e WiJ,Ier A.Uth0ritY: doesn;t want, They both want to si¢uLtap.eously sign off, The health. department is rev¡)wing the ~ calculations, the sanitary requirements. We are dealing with the¡r¡ with respe.ct to the different alternatives that are available to us. MEME\ERTORT0Ri\; Thecrit¢a that is in.the code, so what I would like to do, I'd like to calculate how many anitsare being submitted at ":ratio of 6,000 sq. ft. ofIand atea as opposed to 4,000 because I believe ifs an ûbsttnction ofTDwn Code that you need 6,000 sq. ft. ofJand area without water and sewer. MRS. MOORE: But we have it. We have it. Water and we also have the availability of sewer_ Keep in inind'i met with Plannillg a loug tjme ago and s¡ñd Valerie sewer, is it VilIagepf Greenport Sewer or is it a systynr? She said it's a system it's not sewer With village hppkup you would need a1ternatives. to the v¡1lage . there, are alteí:natives tQ hooJÇ\ng up with the village. That is,the way it is, public water and sewer, and We are addressing them and have both. MEMBER TORTORA: MEMBER ORLANDO: Waste water treatment plant? MEMBER TORTORA: We couldn't get a positive number we could fix in that 6,000 sq. ft. I don't want it to comebaCk in. ntunber. MRS. MOORE: I understand their criteria. MEMBER TORTORA: MRS. MOORE: The Health Department is looking at this as a special float and the number ofanits availablebasedonthetourwhether it's different alternates - there's chromoglass which isa very good alternative right now. Chromoglass system is a self contained system approvable by the Health Department That is the same calculatious as connecting the interiors of the lines and popping it into the Greenport sewage system. Those tWo alternatives are equal to code and the sewer ca1culations~ MEMBER TORTORA: We need to have proof that it is going to happen before we give the special exception;, That's a requirement. MRS. MOORE: I nnderstand what yon are saying, I've been in touch with them for a month, I should be getting sOme paperwork - it was expected today - I might have it tomorrow which is from Greenport. There's also right now the Health Department issued a variance for the chromoglass system, we are pursuing both because Greenport while they want us to hook up, they want - how much was the uumber, a million - up frout no questions asked give them a certified check and they'll give you an availability letter. That's a lot of money up front. Rather than what has always been the house was a payment schedule at least tö hook up. No, they want a million dollars up front and that imposes a real difficulty for anybody, any existing facility that wants to hook up to sewer or new facility that wants to hook np to sewer. That is something under special pe:rmit for these conditions for sewer because that's how our munber calculations come up with cost, what our calculations are based on. Again, it is whatever the Health Departmeut approves whether it's a plug-in to the building or its and that has not been decided because right now the regulations with the Health Department are in the process of being revised to allow the I think they are going to have to re-issue the engineers in the .month ofNovembeL That is a very serious possibility and while the chromog1ass system is a half a million dollars improvement, it was uot a milliou dollars and you can work out the cousttnction plans_ MEMBER TORTORA: a system, you'll have to address that. MRS. MOORE: I don't know how to address it other than· ---=-~~~---=- Page 40 "f74, Octob", 17,2002 ZBA Public Heariµg Transcript ToW)! orgouthold MEMBER TORTORA: MRg. MOORE: You can see the nwubeI of ~u.tes to 58 because I just di<;i the calculations for the revision, the minutes are 47 based on that 4,000 number. I did it:in my computer but I didn't write it down. The n~bèr you give us is 58 is contìngeut on the sewers. If you don't get, sewers, whether iVs cbromoglass or connection to Greenport we have to come back to you, and they mtderstand that. That's how they got their buíld:ing permit initially. CHAIRMAN: In 1991 we - actually prior to that we weut through a gEQRA process - We started with 77 ánd ended up with 66 "I 67. MEMBER TORTORA: 68. CHA1lUÆAM' Well one was a , . I think what Mrs, Tortora is saying is they've given a fuir amOnn( onime while you're working this out, you can tell us what you will f111ally come down to what you will reduce $e number of units to. MRS. MOoRE: We will not comedown below 58. 58 was - you guys cut them back - to the po:int where they'd have to stop the ptocess because it wasn't fmancially" CI:lAlRMAN: We, didn't stop- MRS_ MOORE: No, the economy- CHAlRMAN: The paper process. MRS. MOORE: Well, the paper process, now we've done the paper process again and through the paper process 58 has been justified aga:in. So you have - iVs not healthy or acceptable. They have reached a bottomline nwuber from 89 in building bistoric connections and cbromoglass and engineering everything is dowiL The nwuber of units hasn't been increased - you haven't asked for and given the Village of Greenport's blackmail on the part of the sewer, you couldn't ask for the maximum. They came in, said listen, we've got the st8I1dard, we can't reduce it dovro any further, that is the bare bones. It is a 7 acre parcel. We just gottoday theletter from the sew A with the exceptions to verify- CHAlRM.AN: We're also here to discuss the issne of - what shall we c'all it - efficiency? MRS. MOORE: It makes it a - it's a resort motel- the po:int of the motel is to what the use has to be. It's not, again" ít'~ to be used by other motels in the area, whether they were resort motels or otherwise - you call np any motel:in the even:ing and there are little kitchenettes that are available becanse that is the going thing, That is what people's expectations are. When you travel and I travel- that is almost an amenity as a bathroom would be :in yont room_ You need to have a kitchenette to make it available to families to be able to be there 24 houts a clay or even just for people on a fixed income who don't want to go out to a restaurant every single night or you may go out to dinner; but not to lunch, that's the basic consensus we have that's why we are here. Otherwise they couldn't go down there with the special permit without the permits and it would take a nwuber of months and all of the reviews and other stuff CHAIRMAN: Who is here to discuss the size of the unit and to discuss the size of the kitchens? MRS. MOORE: Well, we can discuss the size of the kitchens. Do you want the square footage? CHAlRMAN: No, I want you to tell me if there's an eng:ineerhere who can tell us- MRS. MOORE: Yes. We have a specific unit - I think it was - it has a little half a kitchen unit_ It has a little stovetop, 4 burner. There was a photo included early on. ,~,.,..~==~~..,~-~-=<""~".",,,~,=,,,,,,,,",~ --~ Page41 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Publio Hearing Transcript Town ofSontho!d CHAIRMAN: We had the same discussion with Heruy Raynor in 1991. They are a little more neuveau riche at tl¡is point, but I want t() disouss the size of the unit in relation to the size of- MRS. MOORE: Thesize- CHAIRMAN: When I say the size of the fIxed unit tl¡at goes into - ílO, tl¡e unit of the motel. . MEMBER ORLANDO: The room. CHAIRMAN: Yes, tl¡eroom. MRS,MooRE: The ro()m is 600 sq. ft. CHAIRMAN: The room win be 600 sq. ft. MRS. MOORE: The. total is 600 sq. ft. I have the interior layout as part of the package. CHAIRMAN: t need it in the record. MRS. MOORE: It is in your rec()rd in the packet. CHAJRMAN: I understand that but I need it in tl¡e verbal record. MRS. MOORE: Okay, orally. But understand that your record consists of all written documentation, my bottom line- CHAJRMAN: AIl those people that aren't here that are going to read this record, I mean it's part of that record. MRS. MOORE: There is the kitchenette included as part of the living unit. It consists ofa living area and two bedr()oms. AIl together it can1lQt exceed 600 sq. ft. which is the same way the code read before, maybe 9 with()ut a building permit on it, actually the applicant's plans were the same ones we used. The architect pmvided the certifIcati()n to that effect, and it's still go()d. There is in fact, depending on the unit, S()ille are 599, ()thers are a little ()ver 600, but they seem to comprise 89-600 maximum. CHAIRMAN: Is that considered a suite? MRS. MOORE: I guess that's how you market it. It's the living area where you have the television. CHAIRMAN: But each unit will have 2 bedrooms. There will be no units that will have less than 2 bedr()()ms. MR8- MOORE: N(), actually what happens is the rooms have cOlUlections, s() you CQuld actually rent a r()om without the kitchenette and the moms attached to it S() there is 8()me flexibility. That's the makeup Of the units. If you went there with y()ur wife, and you do not care about a kitchenette, y()u w9l¡]d possibly rent one room. CHAIRMAN: You could be excluded from the kitchenettes. MRS_ MOORE: You could be excluded. CHAIRMAN: You have to come up 1Uld we need to swear you in, sir, so would you stand up? Can you raise your right hand? Firstly, we want to know who you are. BYRON CABOT: Byron Cabot, I'm the ()WIler of the pmperty west ()f- ~ ~17:: ! -: ~ I' I I ! I i; ~ _.~_.~_,"",.,·_.~_.._,",_~,___.,_____~*~=.~-'==~~,=~~L~_'_~...< -, -".~~ -",- "=-'-~-=--~-_._--- Páge 42 of74, October 11, 2002 ZBA PnbliC Hearing Transcript Town of Southold ~: Do you solemnly swear 1he information you're about to give. us is the 1ru1h to 1he best of your knowledge? MR" C1,\BO:¡: yes 1 do_ The question I have is when she mentioned that 1he rooms may bee adjojnìng,does that me¡m that you havee 2 ápàIt1nents making 1he total squaree footage ¡¡-olll 600' to 12,000'? MRS, MOORE: No. MR, CABOT: Or 1,200? MRS_ MOORE: No. CHAIRMAN: Jj¡st àI11ih11tee, this q]restion is to thee board. MRS, MOORE: rortuJ:¡ateely we haye 1he ard)itectwitl1 1he pl1Jì)s. Their way to tkscribe it is tI1at 1he livipg area has a 5' wide kitchen.ettee rj¡Wiin 1he cen.ter, Then. it liM. a bedroom wi1h a door and a separate bedtoom wi1h a dOOL That is thè one unit There is no- CHAIRMAN: Do you tbinJ<; ¡lie arcbiJects redu<;e tJ1is to a plan minded situation as far as - sO 1hatwe could put this np On a board in here and: everybgdy could untkl'Stand it? MRS. MOORE: You!re ~öcrking at a well dyed tlring, and I'm not criticizing anything, ifs probably been photocopied a few ti!))es_ MRS, MOORE: This is actual!y an original blueprint, CHAIRMAN: 1 want to be able tq visualize this up here, I want these people to be able to see it MEMBER ORLANDO: You want a blow up of a singular room wi1ha kitchenet\e_ CHAIRMAN: Yes, and let's see how the-movements go, let's see how everything works out. Let me just tell you this gentlemen. You think that we are kidding around, we're not kidding around_ This is where 1he breakdown of communication was in 199L I've been here since 1980_ I dou't know if I'm going to exist pasr yeM 2002, but I'm telling you if you want to sel! it to us let's get it down and let's get it down now. Let's get it so we undel'Stand what the story is, what the movement of 1he walls are, who gets what, and where it goes, then we will all be able, to make a decision. Weare one member less tonight,' and I'm sure tlrismemberwho vvas a Town Board member wants to seethe movement, and we want to be able to get it down right. MRS. MOORE: Okay_ CHAIRMAN: In the interim, we will have any o1her specific things 1hat you Me getting approvals on, and we'll set a date now for a firutl hearing, and we'll have everybody else understand it at that point. MRS. MOORE: I'm not sure I understand (inaudible) CHAIRMAN: Well that's one reqnest that we just had, MRS. MOORE: That's Dkay_ They are still coming up wi1h things_ CHAIRMAN: I just like to set 1he ground rules in the beginning because then we know where we are going_ MRS, MOORE: As I understanç! it's an iuternal layout of single units. (, '.¡. "(' :1 :t ._~"'~~'''''~~='"===~''''~''''~~''-'''''''''''''''''''''''="=-==='---~~. ""..."'.,.-=-=>""""~,-~-- Page 43 öf74, October 17, ZPOZ ZBA Public Hearing Ttá)!scnpt Town öf SouthoJd MEM)3ER BÇ>RNING: I'd like to ask a few questions before we jump to audience. In the written sub111Îssions here you're citing several motels in Southold Town that have so called kitchenettes in them and you wish - to your knowledge is that all there are? M,RS.M;OORB' Is th~t it? I don't kµow if that's it, those are the ones I called_ When, I called to say, can I rent ~ H>Om wit\l a kltchenettè, theans",er was yes. per$onallyl called most other hotels it;t the area that would be compárable tó what we have here. Could. I call all of them? I could, but- MEMBER HORNING: I was j.µst curious because I'm interested.in the perce»tage ofkitche)1ettes as a percentage oft:j1e total room in these facilities and in the facility that you're proposing. In other words 68 unil$, how many kitche)1ettes? MRS. MOORE: 68. MEMBßR HOJRiNING: 68, okay, because you were just saying there were rooms available without kitcl1e»ettes. MRS. MOORE·: No, no, no_ In the complexes, there is a living area, with 2 separate rooms attached to that living area. Cou)d you separately use them and "ay you have a family, 2 separate couples_ One has a bedíoöJ:n witha,kitchenette because one is always going to be attached to the kitchenette. The other one could be a separately rented room. Ifs designed in that way that it could have some flexibility. MEMBER ORLANDO: Two separate access_ MRS. MOORE: It has. MEMBER ORLANDO: People can come in and out without connectiug- MRS. MOORE: Ideally, if it's a fumily that comes in, they are going to want the kitchenette, presumably, you're not going to want to have your kids sleeping i» the same room with you, you're going to have use for a second bedroom. MEMBER HORNING: If! understand it correctly, 100% of the 58 600 sq_ ft units will have kitchenettes. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. The way the code reads is that each unit, motel unit will have the kitchenette. MEMBER I:10RNING: I've stayed in many rooms in the Townse»d Manor, and none of them have kìtchenettes,except one that I accidentally ended up in~ I was just curious because, they may have 10% in their facilities_ MRS. MOORE: Right Keep in mind that they all added kitchenettes I gness without the Building Department because I couldn't find record of it at the Building Department. So they presumed it to be a permitted use and an alteration to the existing resort motels that this applicant has been asked to submit a special pennit and. specifically i»c1ude (irumdible)_ MEMBER HORNING: I have a quandary with that myself because I don't read the code. I can't read into the code and concur that kitchenettes are allowed in resort motels. MRS. MOORE: I would disagree completely. If you read the definitio» oftransie»t motels vs. the defInitio» of resort rr¡otels, ttansient specifically says no cooking_ MEMBER HORNING: That's correct. MRS. MOORE: While resort has no such indication. .....".,.-~1 . ~ ~.-<>.~'-'~ -.'-".'",^,..--.,<..".",.'."~~"~",..="..~=~"""""-,,<-.,,,.~~=-=='-_. P1tge44 of74, Oct<¡bér17, 2002 Z,BAPublic Hearing Transcript Town of South old MEMBER HORNING: What I read on it is resort motel calls for available for use as sleeping quarters on a daily or a weekly basis. MRS. MOORE: Yes MEMBER HORNING: Oµ a transient, they make it available fOr sleeping and lìving quarters, but no cooking facility, I see it as kind of a mystery there. SleepingandJiving in the transient one, with no kitchenette, but no sleeping in the resort motel with no mention of anything else. MRS. MOORE: That does not make sense. Yon're reading it a certain way but there has to be some logic ill howîtts read. MEMBER HORNING: The logic mystifies me. MRS. MOORE: Well, cpuld it have.beenmore clearly addressed? CHAIRMAN: We have another question here ftom Mrs. Tortora. MEMBER TORTORA: Actually, I'm going to play devi!'s advocate_ The real bad guy here_ If you talk to people in the bu¡siness, the motel busip.essîs it's washed down, closed up, - I mean they do a boo111Ì11g business during the spJir¡g, smroner, whel\ we get into the fall months and the dead of winter _ Here we have all these units with nice little kitchenettes in them - what's to stop them in the dead of winter ftom just b¢ing rented out as apar!11lents or any other use. On a liroited time basis- MRS_ MOORE: I ho:nestly don't think the code allows that because on a weekly basis a motel use is not a dwelling. A dwelling is ye;u--roWld habitation_ We could covenant - the mvners are very willing to cövenant thèma:xÏi1J.lU11 stay. Be it two weeks is the maximum stay for a vacationer~ They have no objection to that. That's what they want this for wlùch is the board entered it. I would disagree with you that I think that's even in the descriptio~ and yes, February is a lousy month to be on Long Island. But asidefi-om, Imeanyou also have holidays, you have Christmas, you're going to have the Pecomc Landing facilíty that has a huge anlOWlt of members in it and have a lot people that have fanrilies that are going to want to come out and stay. We'reg()wg'to have- to have some:thirig, I think it's going to generate a demand. The Chdstmas trees that are sold all over -our season is now ahnost year:"round because -of the wineries~ I wòuld say that it's not necessarily the smroner season, the fall season alone_ I think it has extended into everything but into the winter in teJ'J11s of Seasons. At this point they would be willing to close dowu January, February, and March? CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute. We need to know who the gentleman is who spoke_ MRS. MOORE: I'm sony, this is Ken TedaIiand Neil Esposito. MEMBER TORTORA: I want to get this dowu for the recqrd because I don't want to-_ Is it our Wlderstanding that you plan to close it for aroWld three months? MR. ESPOSITO: January, February, and half of March_ MRS. MOORE: About March 15th? MR. ESPOSITO: I would say about March 15th_ MEMBER ORLANDO: That's basically the winter. CHAIRMAN: Let me swear you in. Do you solemnly swear the information is the truth to the best of your knowledge? MR. ESPOSITO: Yes. One of these is built out in AInagansett called the Hermitage- .·._.~<··._·=c.·'-_~_~_""·~'~'.'.=~~=--·~_'''·'''''''~O'=_'''''~'''~ Page 45 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of Southold CHAIRMAN: I know it well. !vIR. ¡¡sP0S,!TO: I built it b~ck in.'83-'84. They all have little1àtchenette§, individual m¡its, buphey have to rent. :tL\em out for the new sea¡¡on and in Jannaxy, February, and half 0fMarch the units are drain,ed, the complex is closed. MRS. MOORE: Same thing at the North Fork Motel. CHAIRMAN: When the North Fork Motel was granted I sat on this board, which wa¡¡ in, 1981, and it wa¡¡ the nature of the first lawsnit I wa¡¡ part of MRS_ MOORE; I know that as well. CIlAI~: A1¡d every one of those units did not have 1àtchenettes. They have kitchenettes now. You )mow \\fhat that is, th<jÍ's a sUbterfuge. Because of the way the law is "'fitteIL That's my opinion Qn the whQ!e.>'i¡µation. Ànd they are 215 sq. ft. approximately because I meastlted nUtnber 27 twelve times. Thafs the one we USéd- MRS. MOORE: That place is still doing qnite well, and I've recommended several people who bought and sold :tL\ere; and it is an. affordable way of coming out and visiting, CHAJIi.MAN.: Np question about it, but they were nQt granted by this board for the. sole purpose of having 1àtchenettes. I'm just telling you, I'm making a general statement. MRS_ MOORE: I understand that the courts though rule as far a¡¡ the ownership and you were told that YQU hadtQ- CIlAIRMAN: It's like getting 10 year by acceptance_ MRS. MOORE: Anyway. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions rrQm the board at this point? MEMBER ORLANDO: I just wanted to darify, so you're ba¡¡ically dosing for the winter. Have yon done a traffic stody? MRS. MOORE: There was an environmental inlpact statement, everything was addressed. MEMBER ORLANDO: So, th~re would be a light put out there? MRS. MOORE: In fact the state, we met with the county and what they did wa¡¡ they located an entrance directly across from San Simeon fo.r safety, and that was their recommendatio.n. CH.AJI{:MAN: There was also. the condemnatio.n situatio.n which o.ccurred in my office wh:i.ch caused - I'm not part ofiliat plan sitting on the board - the widening of the roads_ MRS, MOORE: They had that in mind. MEMBER ORLANDO: You can rent a room there without a kitchenette? MRS_ MOORE: Yes. The way I see the layout, you can rent a room separately rrom- MR. ESPOSITO: We do have a brief, sinlplified version of the room sizes. To answer your question, the average livingroo.µI is 16x14 vvith a 5 o.r 6' kitchenette stuck in the co.rner. The bedrooms are approxinlately 12x10_ -~- Page 46 0[74, October ¡ 7,2002 ZEA P1>blic HearÌíig Tnmscrìpt Town of Southold CHAIRMAN: Do you understand what I'm requesting so that we can understand. MR. ESPOSITO: I have O)1e and I think ifs in my files. MRS. MOORE: I'll look in my file before I leave- MR. ESPOSITO: Because it simplifies a version of a unit MEMBER ORLANDO: And the 300 sq. ft. living room includes fue kitchenette. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MR.. ESPOSITO: Ifsjusta- MRS. MOORE: It's a pop-out kitchenette_ This is a quarter unit, it has a living area, here is the kitchenette. This is one room, and you can see that you could bl<)ck it off, und you could have it used separately, then the other is connected. So it gives a litt;le flexibility on the- CHAIRMAN: I'm just waiting fot ilie simplified version. For the people that are here, an& the people who know me, I'm wearing this hat because the lighting in this place has destroyed my eyes, and ifs really starting to get to me at this point I .apologize, very shortly I'm not going to see anything. I think we have to get into any comments in fue audience at this point and pick a date for the recess, and give 118 the movement that I'm requesting -atthis point. I MJ3MJ3ER HORNING: Can I ask one mote question? Again, the 68 two bedroom unit - a bedroom could be rented without the kitchenette supposedly. Is that correct? MRS_ MOORE: Yes. Keep in mind that the nun:Jber ofbodies. in fuose rooms stays fue same. If you have two rooms, you could have one person renting one room and one renting another one~ MEMBER HORNING: 68 units - you could call it a 136 room hotel- could you not? MRS. MOORE: We did not intend it to be that waY. It is the same square footage that is - the units, fue 600 sq. ft.. unit is broken up is such a way it gIves flexibility to a family or to two couples that come separately. It is not an intention to rent 100 - whatever double is - it is the Same square footage wifu the same number of bodies that could = out a 600 square foot So square footage wise, it is identical. We wanted to design it in such a way so as not.. CHAIRMAN: Is there anybody in fue audiepœ who would like to speak for or against this project? Jack I'll be with you in Ö1'le second. That may not be here in a future date which We have not set yet I have a case in mind, but I will, now I'll let Mr. Levin. Mr. Levin, would you like to come up and say something, sir? Mr. Levin, I've knö\vn you for many, many years, but 1 haven't- JACK LEVIN: My name is Jack Levin. CHAIRMAN: I have to swear you in, Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give us is the truth to the best of your knowledge? MR_ LEVIN: I'm very much interested in the procedure fuis application. This is 67 kitchens obviously. The sunset motel is adjacent to the east They had the unfortunate incident of losing a building by fire a couple of years ago and they asked to re-build, they said you canj118t replace what you had - there's kitchens in the 8 rooms. People ITom the town came down, and thonght they would do us a good win " if you eliminate the kitchens, you won't ne.ed a pennit_ At that point in time, we had to get outside help to get this permit - I don't know why we had there were two kitchens, they ~-- ..--._._._.~=~~~-_.~.__.,~~-"--., Page 47 of 74, OctoberJ7, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Tral1$cript Town ofSouthoJd Were (>DIy being replaced. As far as this project, it is very rare, they are not motels, they are condo:rn.iniums or apartmcnts right there, CHAJ1llv1AN, Than!< you. Anybody else li1œ to speak 'It this point? Go alwad. I need to know yom: name. BRUCE GARATANO: Bruce Garatano, I'm the owner of the Blue Dolphin Motel, CHAIRMAN: The new owner? MR. GARATANO: I am the owner and proprietor of the building. CHAIRMAN' Do you solenm;Jy swear the iufonnation you're about to give us the truth to the best of your knowledge? MR. GAlMTINO; Yes, My concern 'Ibout this project is the fact that what the impadwill be on the reSt of the co!t\fi1lUlity on the rest of the mOtels, on the test of the B&B's in the area. They are proposing 68 ~'t$ an1 now telling us they can break these units up into 100 and somethinguni(s. I think this is something that the board should seriously consider their way out and their use fortl1.e property. It seems that there's an tiltcrior motive, and I just would like the board to review this andmake sure theY!l':e doing the right tl)ing. CHAIRMAN: I trying to lUlderstand the break-up, and that's what I'm trying to do at this meefu¡g. MR. GARATANO: The break-up is that they, by their drawings, by their renderings - is that theY are $Ding to c9ndo co-ops, going from - if you have two rooms in these apartments, that houses 4 people, tl1.'It's 4 people per unit in 6S lUlits_ That's going to impact our community immel1$ely - the locm businessf", the 10ca1B&B's, the rest of the motels in the ar"". I would hope th'lt you would not allow a Holiday Inn type 'Itrnosphere here in Southold Town. CHAI1llv1AN: Tha1Jk you_ MR. LEVIN: Can I 'Idd just one more thing? The impact of the traffic on that highway, thousands of cars going to Orient, baðk at the curve there 'It the entrance is one of the most dangerous curves in Southold Town, ftom Orient to Mattituck. That would create havoc. CHAIRMAN; Thank you_ BYRON CABOT: I was just going to speak my support for Jack. I think one of the big problems with it, it's being presented as a motel, and I think Jack runs a legitimate motel, and from the description of this project, discussing the nonnm lUlderstanding of a motel, and how a motel operates. This is basically a timesharing unit that the devel9per wants to get his money and get out. I don't think this is going to be a positive contribution to this community. I don't thi1Jk that the Town of Southold would be interested in monitoring this sort of thing. They say they are going to shut down in January, February, and March. What are you going to have police - how are you going to enforce this sort of thing? I know you said and under, but nonetheless- CHAIRMAN: In covenance, but can I just have your name for the record please? The information you're about to give us is the truth to the best of your knowledge? MR. CABOT: Yes it is. I would like to know, I don't know of any motel that is 600 sq. ft. anywhere that I've ever stayed in. A hotel that I've stayed in was basically 12x20. CHAJRMAN: That's why I asked if it was a suite or not. ".,_."_'-+·._.~·~,~.._~~r__~>_~~=·__~_~~,~=_~,L_ --- Page48of74, OctoDer 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Towtl of Southold MR. CABOT: Suite, or apartment condo. I mean, how do you break up 2 bedrooms to support 2 indivídual families with one door? CHAIRMAN : Yon have to wait until we get to the next process, and that's how the whole tlring !lows. We are going'!<W<lt it up on the board, and we are going to learn and understand that. That's the best I can d& foryou at tl¡:ìs poM ~emember that these hearings usually end up being prelimju"ry hearings, and then we get int~ a final hearin¡J; situation. We are always generating· questions and the questious are inputted questions nom the audi;ence_ They are questions.that are inputted by the indi,",dual members of this committee, or this organization. At no time do I ever want to. see anybody sitting back and not wanting to ask a qn~n when there's an issue here. Tlie issue is I'm n<¡>t gomg to reVÍew this blUðprint that I càn barely see nom m,re ¡it thi¡; J;>omt. hyantto see it pla:in, I w3f)t. to see it nke. I wantW see it as"", example 01' whim one of thes.. units go, With surrOll1Lding·unit&so that we un~tand how this. whol<Hbi<¡1g comes to~t. Tharikyou_ ·MissMoöre? M:&S. ¥OqRE: We will Pl'9víde y"u with eVentually with, I knöw I have in my file that I've higlilighted for the J?TimningBoard actually at ,me poi»t . and the code allows 600. sq. ft . Ifs notour intentiön, to double anyt!\ingor increase or wbatever. This win work it put so that it wor!is an.:! we have nO p¡-obl~ with that. That is the intentiönl¡ere. CHAIRMAN: We weren't indicating that was your intention, we'rejust saying we need the input MRS. MOORE: I'm not trying- CHAIRMAN: We are in court. It's fine. ~ r \~ MRS. MOORE: It's a good observation, and certainly we'll address it and it's not the intention here. We're following the code- MEMBER ORLANDO: So it won't be like, I'm sorry_ MRS. MOORE: We are following the code, and it was designed with that in mind. With the same code, for pw-poses . We thought this Was a one year process to re-activate the site plan and everything has taken three. They have used the same architectural plans that were approved, and building pennit ftom 1989. We'll take those and show you how it's laid out and if you need to see how it's laid out, we11 show you, and if you need us to close off a door, We can do that There's flexibility. CHAIRMAN: We have one more question. MEMBER ORLANDO: So you will not be following the Amagansett suit by indivídually selling them? MRS. MOORE: That is a possibility that what happens is, you can buy, as an investment so you have indivídual investors buying a unit They must participate in the motel aspect of it So in other words, if you buy a unit as an investment, you may use it for a week or two weeks, but aside from that, it must be in the rental pool as a motel use_ It's a form of ownership. MEMBER ORLANDO: Who ma:intains it after it's been purchased? MRS. MOORE: The association of owners actually monitors it to be so that's how we survive all the economic cycles, because you don't have the developer who builds it, I mean he may end up keeping it, but let's assume that the developer isn't making money, the economy goes bad, and it just doesn't work out. The índividual investors are going to want to secure their investment and the other members are also going to walk out to their investinent and be sure the facility is used in itls nature as a resort motel. It cannot change it's use - just to be used for 2 different tlrings. You can own it as, my parents have bought time shares and this is not a timeshare, but as an example, you can buy a time share and you know you're going to have one week or two weeks time uSe of the facility, and you can carry it on, and sell it to your children and grandchildren. But the nse remains the same_ It is going to be used as a resort motel and no ""-~--- l'age 49 of74, October 11,2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of South old variation of ownership, whether it's owned by art mdividual or owned by individuals, it doesn't chartge that use~ CHAIRMAN: Do you have to file fOr with the. Secn,tary of State to create a" MRS. Mo.ORE: Depending on how iI's owned, yon'd have to " artytime you" even a lme of subdivision if you have a co~on road, you have to file somè kind of - there's always a state regulatiön anytime there's money collected- andWs overSeen. CHAIRMAN: Before 1v :t$. DuflY who would like to speak in the back would like to get up. I am gomg to request and rm sure this is not gåmg to be. Cap is not gomg to sit too well with this, bUt I am gomg to reques!art~djou,rnment to.J"'1¡IID)'9"'. We haye p.o 9ther time. We are so immdated with heari:ngsin the later p!lrtof !:his·. year. I dop.'tJ<now whar to suggest here_ MRS. Mo.o.RE: Keep Ì11 mind we've been waiting marty months to get to this pomt, artd we haye to get back to finiSh the site plan. We aie not dorre yet, and if we keep waiting, the economy is gOÌ11g to take, artd we'll be back in the 80's allover again. CHAIRMAN: We dOh't Wartt that to happen. MEMBER ORLANDO: Don't say that. MRS. Mo.o.RE: None of us want that, but that's always ¡he fear that you know, here we've waited three years throngh a very s1rong economy, just when we fmally get to the pomt of making a decision. If you could at all put us as the last hearing of the night or whatever" ~...... C_ CHAIRMAN: Preliminarily, I'm going to go with Jartuary 9, 2003. We Cart. chartge that at arty time, artd I'll let you know what's ayailable artd ¡¡ow the calendar looks for December 5'" but as of right now, we are Oh February's schedule, or actually w~ are in March of 2003. MRS. Mo.o.RE: I filed it 3 years ago, it shouldu't take this long to get through the special permit CHAIRMAN: I understand, but as of right hOW, it wiIJ be Jartuary 9'" unless we Cart grab some additional time. MRS. Mo.o.RE: Maybe you Cart schedule a special meeting. CHAIRMAN: Mrs. DuflY, do you want to say something? I know you are art elected official of this town. rveknown you for many years, you are a gent from- DARLENE DUFFY: My name is Darlene Duffy, I'm not here as a member of the Board of Assessors, I'm here on a personal leveL My family owns the Silver Sartds moteL I just Wartt to ask how marty bathrooms are you gomg to put in? MR. ESPo.SITo.: Two bedrooms, two small bathrooms. MRS_ DUFFY: So we are talking 68 units _ I think that's really importaut, I was thinking there was a motel there for a while, when you're talking co-ops and condos, as I remember, -so it just seems a little strartge. CHAIRMAN: o.kay. MRS. Mo.o.RE: I'm so happy that rest of the hotel/motels in the community embrace artother project that they have. The use is what - there îs no questîon about it - ît îs what it îs, and that's what the code says. We operate it that way_ Nobody watches overthese particular motels to see if people rentfor a day or a week, or a yyar, or whomever they choose to rent to. As far as an assessment goes, a condo is assessed as rental "_"'--_"'_"-~-_"'-"'.-"---'_---'---=~-='~'====~~^'.~='~""""""'-" ~, , \_~Ý ~"'---""""""'-=-~^--.".,.,~-- J'ag" ~O of74, Öctob"f 17, 2002 ZBA Public Bearing Transcript Town of South old JJnit However it's owned, the courts have said ownership is not of the criteria in which you are reviewing this application, it's the use. We came up with some other covenant where ownership means under the state law -that would not be the decidilig point, it's the use, the motel use. To call it anything else- CHAIRMAN: I need you to under_stand one thing ladies and gentlemen. This is a preliminary hearing. We need to get on with the schedu1e_ I dort't want to resmct you. Mr. Tedall, you want to say something? MR TIDAlJ; The units, if sOmeone could: gO Ollt to Amagansett and lOok !It the pern1its there. Individuáls out there own their own units, like investors, lilre myself; I ",antto buy a unitfor $150,000 ar¡d you want t6 buy a unitf6r $150,000. CHAIEMAN; Hpld it, hold it, holrl it. MR. TEDALI: Now listen, have an opeu miRd. You cannot use your investments, you owe $150,000 down, and you have no right to use that unit as an investment The management company rents your JJnit out. Let's say at the end of the year you made $21,000 - ITom an investment point of view, that's pretty good. P'eople who invest in these imits will actually get a check at 1he end of the year. It's something positive. The ownership· is insignificant. If somebody owns a JJnit, and it's in that TentpJ. pool, they take care ofit It's not like in own the. cnmplex, I rented out ~ 6S rooms wiill contract subs, w:þat sho\lld you do? You'll get anybody to renf it, but when you have 68'Dwn~rs an,d they have bylaws,to fQltow they just cannOt rent it to anybody for 2 or 3 months. They can't do it because there's going to be covenants of bow long you can rent ant !!:te JJnit CHA(RMAN; That's similar to the Montauk Manor, isn't it? MJ:!-. TEDALI: It's done quite a bit. There basn'tbeen anew resort motel in Southold.in 7 years. Three years ago, we were going to re-institute half-acre lots, and that's through zoning, you could ouly do half ácre lots. We submitted, and the Plátming Board ·said n<), we want your motels. We were happy to do half acre Jj)ts, but they said they'd like to have the motel, and if you could go out ITom Montauk, and look up some of the eastern ones, too - you know I bring up the Hermitage in An¡.agansett, it's run beautifully. Individuals have responsibility to maintain that unit after the season. Thçy go look at it, the furniture has to be replaced, they replace it. The ownership it deceptive, tl;re people invest in these kU:Id of deals now, it's a fortn of investment for tl;rem, better than the stock market CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mrs. Duffy, do you want to say something else? MRS. DUFFY; I just want to say one thing. I didn't mean to insult Mr. Tedali, butI don't know, 136 motel units on 7 acres is a lot. It's interesting because, Imight buy one of these because ¡ know what he's talkU:Ig about - it i$ a good investmenL I understand about the ownership, you know. But when you call it one thing and it's something else, it's a different thing_ And I don't know who's going to monitor it, because People aren't living there. all year. I don't care if they live there all year. It doesn't inatter to me. The only thing that the toWn really has to understand that it's not ren,ted oulon a year round basis, or lived in by a family. What you want to avoid' is kids being raised in there and going to school ITom there. If they are going to be taxed like a rental UUÌJt, it is.nott>l)(ed like a home. The Board of Assessors, who I'm not representing tonight for co-ops and cond01tlÌniínns. They have to be taxed as a rental JJnit like a hotel room. You aren't taxed like a resident in an individual home, 600 sq. ft. is a pretty bigJJnit. It's 2 bedrooms, you could put a small family in it, and the way things are around here, you can squeeze quite a few people in 600 sq. ft. the way it goes now. I'd like you to be minqful of that. CHAlRMAN: That's why were we interested to find out if they were required to file with the Secretary of State, because that is the key to the shutting of the motel d(!wn duting the winter season. MEMBER TORTOLA: Couldn't that always be changed? CHAIRMAN: I'm not an attorney, but I think it's difficult ,·.._.·"..,·_._.__,~._~_"~"~o",_=~"._~._=_.",,~,,,",~="'_,_.="d~,"""'-",,,,,,,~ (" \ / '"" ~~.-.""" Pago 51 of74, October 17,2002 ZBA 1iùblic Hearing TraIisCript Town of Sot¡thold MRS. MOORE: If you're open a certain number of months a year, and you're closed forthe winter- CHAIRMAN: That was the key to that question. MRS. MOORE: We want this to be an investment for someone, but it is. not to be a dwelling fur anyone. We do not want it to become a dwelling. We do not want to have families living there. Any children in the school district should not be placed for pennanent occupancy. MEMBER TORTORA: Could yoti give me some infonnati~ if! want to buy one ofthe¡¡e units? MEMBER ORLANDO: Literatt¡re. MEMBER TORTORA: I'm very cnrious, m AmߣßnsetL Do yon have information? 'MR TEDALI: We built it 19 ye¡U"S ago, and I'm cOJIlpletely out of it, but yes, theyl) give you the information- MEMBER TORTORA: Just submit it to the board so we can review it. MR, TEDALI: This is somewhat common nowadays with- MEMBER TORTORA: I'm familiar with it, I'm want to see how you offer it m writing, etc_,as a point of reference. Fair enough? MR. TEDALI: Got it MEMBER TORTORA: Thank you. CIlAIRMAN: I need to take a question over here, Mrs. Duffy. You know if you use the microphone, you need to be.swom in. You soleninly swear the infonnation you1re about to give is the truthto the best of your knowledge? NEIL ESPOSITO: I have been part of the Hennitage as the fust president to the Board_ We opened it as a twelve month operation.. After a year we found out it was not insulated enough to expand the -weather, so to speak, or go without heat The board itself voted to close the buildings. The buildings become drained after New YeatS Eve. They s!;ill do it, and I'm still an owner, and I still participate. The rentals are very high . They are good through September. They take them down after that, and they (maudibleJ and it opens always m time for the Samt Patrick's parade m Montauk. That's when the season opens m Montauk, and it's mamtained by the professional managers and a board of directors who look out for the welfare of the units. If you have a or picmros now at this pomt giving placement, they are ltaving the systems replaced. It's not that it's run down, it looks as good as when it was built. The people who originally bought there are now selling for three times what they were originally sold for as illvestment units. In high season, the open tront units rent for $4,200 a week CHAIRMAN: I need to close, recess this hearing at this pomt. I appreciate everybody's information and questions. I'm suggesting arecess for Clara un!;il the meeting ofJanuary 9th, If there is any change on that we will advertise it, and that is what I'm offering as a resolution ladies and gentlemen. MEMBER ORLANDO: Second. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? AIlayos. We'll let you know if there's any changes. Thank you. While we're setting up for appeal #5182, we are running out to get some water we'll beright with you_ 10:38 p.rn. Appl. No. 5182 - R. W. REINIGER. Request for a Variance under Section 100-242A and 100-244, based on the Building Department's April 22, 2002 Notice of Disapproval. Applicant is , i I I , (: ~!I··f· 1·1· it ;" H ' '1'1, :,¡ .-,1 ¡Ii ~ ,...._-"'~,._.~~~~._~-,~~=-~-" -~ Page 52 of74,OctoberI7, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Tran$C1'Ìpt Town of So nth old proposing to construct additions/alterations in a nonconfonning location (existing dwelling) with a rront setback at less than 35' and a rear setback at less than 35', at 3500 Lighthouse Road, Southold; Parcel 50"2- L MR- FlTZGERAW: The house that he is reuovating, and there is no room inside. It's a relatively small hause, ií's on a lot that's UOt buildable. The setbacks are very small. What we .are proposing is to add a. small' ex.tension. It does not extend beyond the existing: concrete path or the existing eav<Ò overhang tOlthe house. CHAIRMAN: Any COfi]1l1ents regarding the letter rrom Soil and Water Co\!servatio\!regardÍ11g the parcel? MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sony, you received a letter? I !mow whafs hinlJ1ame made some comments àbout thi" house uext door. ~Iì~ T«RTQRA: ~e letter rrpm Soil a¡o.d Water Conservation approves that all of the plaµs are liieferentthanwhatthey are proposing, Whe\! I looked at this, All of thase new additiollSthat they.are pr"!'osing, the 2nd floor, the SlID room the one-story additio\! to the side" none of these are part of this .appIicatiofl. 0 that ..!¡oar? I thir1k when Soil a¡o.d Water Conservation looked at it G~my, actually the 01ÙY thing weare looking at is this tiny, little- L;HAIRMAN: I see what '¥e are looking at, but it affects the entire piece of property_ I'm just saying the entire .Piece of property - you are missing my point - this is a free evaluatiou for thé homeowner 10 deal with. That's all this is, we very rarely, lIDless we have a very high hazard erosion situation imposed. The last time we dealt with it w¡¡s the end of Oregon Road on a piece of property that belongs to a lady by the uame ofM¡uy MUrphy. "Ehe restofit is pragmatic criteria that the person shonld use when they are doing thin!¥, that they wish. . That's the reason why - it's a standard situation_ I am very simply going to ask yoµ that question, And if you.don't have a· copy, I'll give you a copy_ MEMBER TORTORA: Are you finally making an application? CHAIRMAN: Again. we're 01ÙY giving you this to give to the homeowner. So when another variance application comes i;J, we build on that MEMBER ORLANDO: What are we here for tonight, Mr. Fitzgerald? MR. FITZGERALD: This little proposed thing right there. That's all we are looking for. MEMBER ORLANDO: This is a sketch for a hot water heater? For what? MR. FITZGERALD: For the house_ MEMBER ORLANDO: The kitchen is here, and the bath is here. CHAIRMAN: Is there anybody else in the audience who would like to speak for or against the application? Seeing no hands, rn make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision lIDtillateL PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 10:40 p.m. Appl. No. 5182 - RAYMOND AKSCIN_ Request for Lot Waivers lIDder Section 100-26 to unmerge: (a) a vacant parcel of20,000+- sq. ft. referred to as 1000-89-2-5.2, (b) a vacant parcel of 20,000+-sq_ ft. referred to as 1000-89-2-3, and (c) an improved lot with L6+- acres oflandremaining referred to as 1000-89-2-5.L Based on the Building Department's April 12, 2002 Notice of Disapproval, corrected September 25,2002, the properties have merged lIDder Section 100-25 due to common ownership with the first lot at any time after July 1, 1983. Zone District: R-80 Residential. Location of Property: 105 _._,>...~~.-.,-,~*._~-~-"~-~~-~~.,--,=.~'.~*,",.~.=.,",~-~""=>-.-",~~'- PageS3 0f74, October 17, 2002 ZBAPub¡;cH~aring Transcript Town of Soufuold and 26,5 Orchard Lane, and 1800 Cedar Beach Road, Southold; Cedar Beach Park Map Lot Nos_ 25, 27 and 28., CHAlRMAN: We are ready to start. KEVIN MCLAUGHLIN, ESQ: Good evening, my name is Kevin McLaughlin. I'm the attorney for the applicant. This is an application for a waiver oflot merger. My clients have owned all of these lots since the early 1950's. They sold the middle of the three half acre lots on the roadftont in 1955 to people by the name of Reed who have subsequently built upon that parceL The large parcel, lot 28, is also improved. Lots 25 and 27 are vacant. Our clients entered into conttacts for the sale to separate buyers oflots 25 and 27 and m doing their title search and single and separate search. It came to everyone's attention that the seller who asked for the 10Js ~me¡;ged by ope¡;ation of law into. the 6- acre.Jot,.lot nn,,;,her 28, Basícall)f we are hèr<;. before this board thisèeve;ring.to !)ave those lots be s.eparatoo into 2 separate and sWgIe lots. As I said 11;Ly ooent ha.s òyroed these for over 50 yea¡'S- They have paid ta:x€S on these, lots, A separate tax hill for over 56 yeaµ;- They've aJ'ways i1;rtendè¡l fuese' ]pts to,remai;tt separate, and not being .I'''P!JistiC¡tted in the laws. oj'merger as ¡:µòst pe'6pJøare not, never reali:l~d that by having.th= in_common oWnership they w0,<Ùd ~e e'verme'rged !PÌ;e14eT. .(1veprov!dec1 yorr in.the ap¡ili""tion Wi1h i¡J1 of the rotèria £;ör w;anting this waiver, Th,.lofs in: the' ¥ea.m<1St ofw:hièh aI:"'$ÌmiJar in ~ we'ren<¡>t gpml!' tç-,mcrease tþ.e œnsity of the nefgJÌhöthood, and for all qfÌh9sereasons we'rb asJdng 1he. board fwa waiver of;that merger. CHAIRMAN: What abont 1he letter ftom the Town Trustees? MR. ¥CLATJGBLIN: I read tþ.e lettef ft()m theT()wn Trustees - to be blunt - I thinkifs irrele'vant for this eveuiJ¡g,. Let's assume that you grant us oux waiver of 11;LergeI'. ¡:More we do anything, we still have to - On eitþ.erof these lots. we st11lhave t9 satisfy Trustees, DEC, the Building Department, 1he Health Department as to whether or 'fot We can improyé either of those lots. There's another attorney sitting in the audience this,evepingwho :repre$ents one of those lot o-wnersJlefQre the T 9Wll Trustees, and it's my understanding that ther~'s substantial difference betweemVhat.their experts say is a condition of that particuJar lot which is lot 25, and what the Town Trustees can indicate. MEMBER TORTORA: 2,5 is lot number what on the town tax map? MR. MCLAUGBLJN: 2.3. Bµt1hat applicati0'f is still pending before the Town Trustees. The issue befqre the board tonight is muchÌ)1ore lin)ited to whether or J+ot we should grant this waiver of merger, and it reaHy doesn't have anythitlg to do wi1h what 1he Town Trustees or 1he DEC Or any other board may do On any application before it in the fofure. CHAIRMAN: There is some degree of correctness. to what you said. Except that you are saying that aut()matically, the purpose of unmerging them is for the purpose of 1he code construction of building the one family house. Hopefully that would be what We would hope to do_ I think of all the un-mergers 1hat we have done - the objective was to do that. That's 1hereaspn I asked you the question. We could have done this in an hour. I think that there is a degree of credenèe ftom, în anpther 10 acres say, which says that they can d¡J " they don't say exactly which Jot. Theyconstruethis one lot, I'm going.to tal<;e it as lot ]5 as being significantly riddled with wetlands. We've had sinú[ar eases like this. I'm just saying to you I accept what you're saying, but I think 1here is some degree of interest in looking into that aspect. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That aspect will be thorougWy explored by the DEC. It may come to the point that the conttacts we have for the sàle of these lots are contingent upon the obtaining of certain permits to be able to use them for 1he purposes fof what they want. If we don't get approval ftom the Town Trustees then it would be likely 1hatthat person w(mld opt ont of1he conttact. But that is an issue for 1hat board to deal with_ Whether Or not the pi.ece of property has wetlands on it and if so, what is the impact for being able to build on it. MEMBER TORTORA: One of the things we look at when we look at requests for unmerged lots is we look for some indication that weareindeed,recognizing öriginallot lines as lots that were carefully ~ ~"- -"'I ~.; Page 54 of74, October 17,2002 . ZBA P"blic Heari~g Trat)~cript Town of Southold maintained in single and sep¡u-ate ownerships. That's basic¡ù)y when you ask us. When I come up with here in reviewing this partnership, it is essentially since 1950 and in the 60's a lot has never been single and Separate. They should merge - they should merge the minute yon went to one of these . This was 1971. there waS µ9 effort oµ the part (jf the owners t(j place them in single and s.eparate ownerShips, but it wasjointlY9wnedþy the two for an of those ye¡u-s. Now, in 1971, wheµ the town weµt to one·acre toning, they wereatltomatica1ly . . . For mwe than: 32 years, they were merged What you are sayìJ:tg toJ])" ~ these p~pledidnot know to put the!)l in sÍllgle. and sep¡u-ate ownership, 1.'bat's number I, J111111be¡¡2, yes whbtl:¢r 1llbre ¡u-ewedands au thatpropertY ör not, is a fi.ctor ror this bOáfd's determínatiOI). It's wrilÎellfÍght into theJaw. It's written fÍght Íll the criteria, page 126. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I dörit agree. MEMBER TORTORA; Wen it~_ MR. MCl,d\UGHLIN: I don't agree that whether there's wetlands oµ the propertY is part of the criteria. ME:MBER TORTORA; Enviro11txœntal factors is not part of the criteria? MR- MCLAUGHLIN: I don't believe whether or not there ¡u-e wetlandS on that property is part of the criteria. AI; f¡u- as the.t(jwn ownership, in fact as you look through the material that I sent you, there was a time, not until 1992 wheuthese lots were not held in town ownerships. There are two, but they're accidents, there's RaYfilond and there's Raymònd J., the middle µa,me is Jay, they ¡u-e father and son. There was a time wherrthese lots were. weeded out.separately. You can also See that in 1965, that middle lot was sold with the sole intentioll of holding these lots by the Serrior Mr. AkscÍ11, basically as an investment so in these ye¡u-s, he would have something to be able to selL Separate tax limE oµ these lots, Yes, by operation of law, I agree, these lots have merged_ Otherwise, I wouldn't be standing here in;ftont of you tonight asking for the un-merge_ In a perfect world, if everybody would]µ¡ve known what lot mergers meant, of course they would have checker bo¡u-ded all these lots, and nobodY would ever have to come before you. As this is µot a perfect world, I'm su,re you get applications all th" time for waivers of lot mergers simply because people ¡u-en'tthat. sophistjcated to know that by owning what are separate maps on the subdivision goes hack to 1927, thafs just a Y2, acre lot and it was an approved subdivision, that it someday is' going to mergèîl1tÇl another lot, even though there1s a lot in between that's been sold to someone. else because it happens to have a county boundary. ME:MBER TORTORA: What's the ~eason on the 1989 tax !)lap - if yon look at a copy of a 1989 tax map mérges lot 5.2 with 5.1. There is no distinctiol\ between (inaudible) the '89 tax map. I know what you did in the separation. But iu the ye¡u-s before that, they won_ The other factors related is, one of the factors is these are 20,000 sq. ft. l(jts. I looked ¡u-ound the neìghborhood, and they ¡u-e not substantially the same, they ¡u-~ substántially s111aller than most of the lots in the ¡u-ea_ MR- MCLAUGHLIN: is 20,000 sq. acres. ME:MBER TORTORA: Tills is olie lot- ME.. MCLAUGHLIN: If you down all Orch¡u-d Lane, there are small lots down through there. MEMBER TORTORA,: I come up with Ll acres, 1 acre, 1 acre, I don't see oue lot in here for 20,000 sq. ft. Tills i8the cri1:\,ri~ we have to go off of, we are supposed to go off of. The fact of the matter is that aside ITont the lolin betweeu was those trees. There were no other 20,000 sq. ft. lots in the immediate district. I've got a copy of the tax map right here. You ¡u-e completely wrong. I don't see it. It is substantially S11taD~rthan the majority of the lots. CHAIRMAN: 1 need you to state your name for the record_ ~ ~~ _ _ ,,_.. ,,~__._ ~·~~",".~~_N..~~~.OC._~C·'-~_"_"·_._.,._·~,,_<.~·__~__~ -~ ---""'~~'---"'""'- r \",-,.-- page 550f74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public 1;!em::ing Transcript TöwI1 of South old RAY1\1Ç>ND 1. AKSCIN: Raymond J. Akscin, I'm the owner of No_ 27 on the local tax map_ Lot 29 and lot 30, when did you sell those lots? What year Was that? That was after '65. Those are all separate lots. They are only 2 quarters of an acre if that. MEMBBR TORTORA; You don't have those lots anymore. We have.tax maps, MR. MCLAUGHLIN; Those two lots were sold to onelllan who built his house on 29. He sold his house on lot No. 29 along with No. 30. That 1)1an who has hishouse on No. 29, Frank Laterri, he just sold that lot two years ago, anµ they built,it house o!), iL And yon're telling1)1e that wasn't merged? No One has ever had any statement or any notjçe of that these things were ever merged. I can't believe it. This is an oulrage_ It's lilte "llthese years- It's like an investment,it's lilte a savings account, Y"u are paying on this, you get a tax bill for each lo~ y"u. g~tit b11)1ch of then': Yoµ. pay, yoµ. pay, you pay. ]'fow comes a tÌine. whet; you want tq g<>, Y011 ~dthe","on"ffórSùme¡4irig. ¥,,µ.go, yi;>:o. are tol4 YON dpn'tJ1aye that to s.ell mrynr"re.. We took it.away a IcmgtÌin<¡c ag<5-,weJustj'Orgqtto 1\>11 you, MEMBER ORLANDO: The to'\VJ1'S not required to !),,,tÎj:ý everyone when yow lot is merged. MR. MCLADGHLIN: Why don\ttheYse!),d o!),e tax bi.ll the!),? Why is it separate tax bills? They give you a false impression, likè'they are sin.gleand separate. MEMBER TORTORA: There are a.Iot ofpeaple who own several lots, and even if they are all merged, they get separate tax. bins. I can see where it could get confusing. MR. ASKCIN: That should ansWef yow question why did we think they were single and separate_ MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Plus.the fact that they did sell off, when they originally bought these lots, they bought 25c30. They sold off 26, they sold off 29,. and they sold off30. They continue to get separate tax bills, they c011tinue to pay those separate tax bills every year, so they would have no reason to suspect that lots 27 and 25 which are divided by 26, which they sold and improved upon, would ever have merged. And merged with a lot that's 1-6 acres. MEMBER TORTORA: I know, and thatlot that you say is 1-6 acres, actually when you look at the 1989 Suffolk County Tax Map as bein.g 1,1 acreS. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct me if c I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, but I suspect my clknts never went and looked at the tax: maps to see if these lots had merged. Theyhad no idea that they would merge_ Or why any reasonahle person would understand that MR. ASKCIN: 1.also think that's your fact that you said it was 1993 or something that lots 27 and lots 25, they came to me at that time.. ¥y parents wanted to do estate plamring, and they turned these two lots over to me, I had title to both of thetu, and I was paying taxes on both of them. About a year or so later my mother became sick., and she was worried for her health, and she said she wanted the lots back. Turn the lots back to them. My mother died. My father said, took you take one of these lots. Turned the lots back to me again. That was in like '95-96 c number 27. That's why you see aU of these lot changes. CHAIRMAN: All we can tell you is that we will look at it MR ASKCIN: I'd lilte to say one thihg also_ My father here lived and worked here his whole life. I've worked here the last 30 years in the 1J.ursery business. We've donated a lot.of stuff to this town. We've never asked for anything tram this tOwn, and we're really disappointed to have this come upon us like this because if someone had said hey loak you better go down and change all of this, they are going to merge, of course: We could put different initials' in it or something like some of these people do, but we never thought that the town would do anything like this to us. If you look out here, there's trees that Were donated to the tOWll- The family donated at least a hundred trees around this whole town_ L... _ I i L-~ ~"-""""'~""""""'=''''''''-~." Page 560f74, Octóber 17,'2002 ZBp, PuNic Hearing Transcript Town of Southold MJ:¡MB¡:ìR TORTORA: Mr. Askcin, do you know the strange thing about it is some people think that this is a resUlt of some new law. Bntitisn't. This has been in the town since, actually, 1967 . You )mow that Mr. McLaughlin_ MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That may very wen be true- MEMBER TORTORA; It.<:ertainly is. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: But this town perpetuates all codes by sending out individual tax bills, they let people - why would anybody - I've never gone to a cocktail party where it's been the snbject of çonversatiol1'" oh gee, I'd better checkãI1d see if my lots have merged. 1t'$ not something the average Person thinh about. It's somethíµg that sneaks up on unsuspecting Reaple. That's why this board is given '!he power to tunnerge lots when Ít's clear that the purpose of ownership of these lots is not to let them 111erge' where there's a large 10Ümd two little furks coming out to another road. You know, a lot that they OW11erl; sold in fhe.¡niddle, and.a couple df other lots that were sold off during the ye¡trs. That is our purpoSe in coming here. today. I·underst¡pld the lot merger. 1 understand w):¡at has happened here. But that doesn't mean that t.Í1is board doesn't hàve the ability tó undo an injustice. C:HA)RMAN: Qkay. WeacceRt your statement. Gentlemen, any questions? No. Yes, ma'am in the back:. P1easé· .~ome i,lD.d stateyòur nanie. HE:[ßN FINNIGAN: My natlle is Helen FIDnigan. I'm actually metgerissue~and there isawetland:issue.' Ifwe deal with . I understand that there is a CHAIRMAN: Anyone else like to say something? PATJUCIA MOOR¡:¡, ESQ: IjQSt happen to be the attorney for the other lot, number 25. iÂt'mtiIY the wetland highs, it is Our 1illde~tanding that thete is a substantial portion of the property that is buildåble. The trustees. are not in a dispute and Rob Herman - he doesn't understand their disagre~mentwith them, but he's getting a second opwon trom a professional, whether he's somehow or another identified with it orth,eres arguments to be made by somebody bias. Certainly . In all fairness to Mr' Askcin, the properties are sticking out like a fork, and it really doesn't 111ake sense to have it merge to the fathers honse behind or to both merger and it was dissected by a property that was sold. Certainly We are infavot of the waiver of merger and the issues with respect to the wetlands, we are dealing with the Trustees. En-{;onsultants the DEC will come out and verilY his lihes because En-consultants is one of the foremost expeJ:(s_ Rob Herman is one of the people I trust most, with his expertise of the wetlands. If you can't trust his opinion, the next best thing is the DEe. MEMBER TORTORA: If you are fmniliar with that part of the code in the waiver of mergers that we have to review... MRS. MOORE: Yes the environmental issues. MEMBER TORTORA: They maybe we would submit some other point of reference as to why_ MRS, MOORE: Well rn check with Rob to see ifhes able to get us some second opinions as far as the wetlands. If it's not buildable, I guess nobody will be able to- MEMBER TORTORA: I'm confused, what have you applied to the Trustees for? MRS_ MOORE: We put in a building envelope for a house. We located everything as you would with any construction on a lot. As part of the application to submit, you have to flag the wetland line, and determine the- MEMBER TORTORA: It's not a lot yet ,....,.,- ~_.~.~. .,_~~~.~·,._~··.o~·_".___~_.-.__~.-~.-=>,._.~~.,=_=~.....,.-_="",,=~"""""'__'.''''''''''"'''". - -".~~~--- ~, "{ Page 57 of74, October 11,2002 ZBAPublic Hearing Transcript Town ofSouthöld MRS_ MOORE: Pardon? MEMBER TORTORA: It's not a lot MRS. MOORE: We weren't aware that it bad merged until it had been, there was some kind of survey - some 1ci!1là of s;ìngle and senarate. In this instance the single and ~eparate had the survey very quickly done and flagged so we were one step ahead of it and we kind of held off doing.anything further until the waiver of merger got resolved. Obviously we don't want to invest any more money, on a paréeI that got denied the waiver of merger. H'ere we are, we can't go any further_ Everything is bappening at the same time. I will testify that we've gotten a second opinion on the wetlands. MEMBER TORTORA: a separate file. MRS. MOORE: Funny you should ma1<;¡;. áC91'Y of that. CHAl~: It looks like a copy, We woµ't clpsethehearinguutil-we'll close it at verbatim, and close it at th"nextregular scheduled meeting. MRS. MOORE: When's thene){tmeeting? CHAIRMAN: November 14"'. AnybO<;!yelse? MEMBER HORNING: Can I ask a question? CH.AI¡<:MAN: Quick one, George, we have to get going_ 0, \ . ~~. MEMBER HORNING: Mrs. Moore, wbat's the chance that you could provide for us the lot sizes of those 7-íS lots on Cedar Beach Road áCross the creek tram the 2 parcels? MRS. MOORE: I think you want to have the chance to - he'd be happy to do that for you. MEMBER HORNING: And the ownership, of course, too to see if they are merged or whatever the status of them. MR.. ASKCIN: In order to do that I'd have to run title searches on all of those lots_ MRS. MOORE: You couldoilly go back as far as the owners presently, because if you have 2 parcels, sometimes the successors on that have merged, and then you get one tax bill, or it's rare that the assessor identifies that MEMBER TORTORA: On Orchard, on Cedar Beach, across the road, that's oilly showing up as one, there's oilly 3 lots on that - the dotted lines, George, they are old structure lines, not lot lines_ There are öilly 3 lots on them, they are alii-acre 10ts_ MEMBER HORNING: Okay, my question's answered. CHAIRMAN: Again, we will close the hearing to any verbatim, closing it on November 14th. MRS_ MOORE: I'll give yon a copy of our survey on that house (inaudible) provided that our wetland line is a direct line. CHAIRMAN: Okay. HEARING CLOSED TO VERBATIM *** "~"_"~"_<'''~__'~''~''_'·''''¡''"_~'~~~__~--='~'',~''''''''-'''''''''''='''''__=h-=-"_'="""","",,,,,,,,,,._"~~~ Page 58. of74, October 17, 2002 Zj3APublic Hearing Transcript Town of South old 11:11 p.m. Appl. No. 5032 - LISA EDSON. Request for Variances under Sections 100-32, 100-231 and 1 00-235A.I, and New York Town Law Section 280-a, based on the Building Department's July 5, 2001 and September 20, 200 I Notice of Disapproval concerning: (1) a retaining wall proposed at a height greater than the code limitation of 4' along or in a ITOnt yard area, (2) proposed deck constructipn with a Zer<\ setback ITom the front yard line, and ITom the private right-of-way, at its closest point; and (3) a detennination as to minimum specifications at the base of a Private Right-of-Way, (land owned now or fornierly by Mary KiTsch referred to as 87-5-24), to establish standards of improvement for safe access by fir<> áIld emergency,vehìcles (applicanfs lot does not have direct ITontage on '" town street)_ Location of Proper1y. Extenrliftg 450' over a Private Right-o¡;' Way, commencing at a p"mt on the north sid~ of BayÝiew Road (9326), Sonthold; Parcels 87-5-25 & 24. CHAIRMAN: Mark, areyou rû;lling with this one? MRS. P ATRICJA MOORE, ESQt This is mine. CHAIRMAN: Oh, Pat you're doing it, I'm sorry. MRS. MOORE: That's okay. I wasn't there on Saturday, I waS out "ftown. CItAIRMAN: Yes, I was there with Mark. We crossed each other's paths then we met each other sometime,: soaked. MRS. MOORE: We are sortofjn an unusual situation here that in the access to the property requires approval, but the Trustees actually directed us on how they wanted the road improvements over that right- o¡;'way. They had each of you review an application that had a design that they very much liked. When we were at ,the Trustees, actually Rob Heffilan and I were working together on this_ Rob had the engineer who had to find another road for aCCe8$ similar to this, and it's designed as another group of properties the applicants have designed in Southold. So the testimony and engineering with respect to these improvements, so I would ask that you include the access with the improvements which are reaIIy expensive and over-the-top and not something that the applicant really wishes to do, but which the Trustees really recommended and the applicant agreed with. It's more than just a standard driveway, it's significantly different. The other issues are the state funds some right-o¡;'ways that are on this property that were created when the subdivision was created. These right-of-ways, there is an access right~of-way w]:rich gives access to this property as a driveway access. Once the right-of-way extends from the property line. down to the , it Ì$ a limited access driveway in that - excuse me, 20' right-of-way which gives the 2 property owners on the north, on Main BayvÍew access to the dredged canal. At one point in time, whet): the subdivision was created, it was imagined that there might be a boat basin or some improvements down in the dredged canal, but given today's environmental laws, that's not likely. It's going to be used in it's natural capacity. And the access. to the right-of-way is going to be down to the dredged canal is going toremóve nptably natural - I gness those property owners would have a very minor mulch on it, so it would allow us to take a boat down on a trailer or something. But really you cannot go down there by vehicle becanse the car would be stuck, and you probably could.t1'tfit any pervious material on that right-of-way because the DEÇ and the Trustees would never allow that. While we have to maintain setbacks ITom that right-of·way, the right-of·way is really no more than a pedestrian access down to the dredged canal The same goes with the access - there is a 20' right-of-way that runs along the width of the property - that too is access for the twQnortherly beáches to get across and if they were to go and - let's see, the westerly part, the ot):es who cross over'<ri}d get access to the walkway down to the canal, they could cross, they would have aright to cross Lisa Edson's property. But again, because of wetlands and setbacks, you cannot put any kind of pervious material and create any kind of significant, drivable aspect_ Let's see, another issue that has COme up, quite frarikly, the retaining wall around the sanitary systems_ The sanitary system walls arenot~erteral1yconsidered structures. I actually - at the time that we were doing this application, Ed Forrester had left and Mike Verity had come in. Things were in flux at the Buildiug Department. I thought it :-vas better to be safe thàn sorry that this wall ¡µ-ound the sanitary be considered a structure for purposes of setbacks, so that. it would be included here since I was coming before this board anyway, I wanted anything ànd everything possibly you could consider to be included. What we included was the sanitary walIthat ,_.,~-_.__..<.~,~^--,--~.~.~~~"~....,~~_.~~,,---..-..,=-,~--~~~- ~~~...",. l'age59of74,October 17,Z002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town ofSouthoJd goèS around \he sanitary system is setback - unfortunately it can't be pushed away from the right-of-way becausetliat is the location of both the Health Department and the DEC has detennined as the appropriate location for the sanitary system and the wall around it Any sanitary systems on this property require some fOInl of retajning wall to prot""t the W<jter here. MEMBER ORLANDO: That retaiillng wall is sub-su:rfuce correct? MRS. MOORE: Both are suþ-surface areas, some protrude above the surface, and in the cross section acre- MEMBER ORLANDO: It's insignificant, it's a couple of inches_ :rv.œ..S. MOORE: No, no, no, -it!s,5~ - 5-.5 Vz'. MEMBER ORLANDO: Above surface? . MRS. MOORE: Ifs above, yes. It's equiv¡1lent to a mounded system. MEMBER ORLANDO: I'm looking at th~ other side final grade. MRS. MOORE: Sanitary system here witJ'r the brown waters that we've had. MEMBER ORLANDO: The finished grade on the other side, I'm reading they are filling it in. MRS_ MOORE: Yes, iliey are filling it in. Now keep in mind that ilie house is going to be on piles and the elevation, the house is going to be actually above the sanitary system. Houses in this area, again, just like Mary Kirsch's bouse and any house that wj\i be. built on any other parcels have to be elevated because of the flood ZOne. Sanitary is 5 W from grade on grade on average and the sanitary floor is at I'm going to say 11. You're looking at a height at 6' above the sanitary wall. That's where the fInished grade is. CHAJRMAN: Can we go back to the for a minute? MRS. MOORE: Sure_ CHAJRMAN: Are you refen;ing.to Ibis right-of_way access fOr subject property was improved wiili 2" of crushed bluest011e over 12" layers of 1 Y:z!!~tone and let the stOD11 water runoff? MRS_ MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN: What is the maximum width on that? MRS. MOORE: The widili of the right-of·way - it actually encompasses to the entire width of the right-of- way because the driveway is in one area wben you look at the dimensions, but ilie drain system has to run adjacent to the improved surface, so there are actually drainage drains that run - you can see the drainage rings iliat are drawn in. Tbere are drainage drains that run the width of the right-of-way, so within ilie legal limits of the right-of'way, is a drainage drain that is 4x8 diameter so 5' of drainage then the balance of it is, oh here on the cross-section map up here on the top where it says Main Bayview Road, up 10 the right of Main Bayview Road. CHAIRMAN: Tbe problem that I have is, and we'll leave it at that point- MRS. MOORE: Take a look at ilie question you're asking. You have a 10' portion, then you have 8' system drainage, and- CHAIRMAN: When you look inside, looks like 12' to me. MRS. MOORE: Yes right, 20' altogether. And that's the width of the right-of-way_ ¡>áge60 of74, October 11, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing TranScript Town of So nth old CHAILTh1AN: The trucks are II' 6" - fIre and emergency vehicles. That is tight $S. ~1100BJi; That's what, I mean,. that's what the Trustees wanted. They wanted the drainage in, and we had to pm SOille in. We, only have 20' to work with, CHAIRMAN: If you go with 12, y<ou're going to have an over·¢ut on both sides. You have to have a 3' <:>ver'cut on both sides to allow, MRS. MOOBJi: The legallirnìt is 20', q-IAI~: YOll"",gp~to 4!!ye an over,cut on the one. side. Beca1.)Se if you don't do that, you will never getfire insurance. Aniì that i8the· story. MRS. MOORE: Okay, Well,wehaveIO,excuseme, 18'ofwidth. CHAIRMAN: You've created the over-cut by the draining. MRS. MOORE: That's right. CH;\RIMAN: But that drainage is going to have to withstand a phenomenal amount of weight MRS. MOORE: I'll make sure the engineer is aware that you have to be accessible to emergency vehicle<>. CHAIRMAN: And I'm not referring to just an ambulance, I'm referring to the fact that you've got to get a pumper down there one way or another. (--- \ '...../ MRS_ MOORE: Right, I waS referring to a fIre truck And a fire truck goes down there and damage<> soille drainage, trying to protect the house. MEMBER ORLANDO: They make separate, different precasts for load bearings and non-load bearings, They are obviously load bearing_ . CHAILTh1AN: From my understanding, they have to withstand a minimwn of II or 12 tons. Most of the trucks weigh about l8 now, loaded with water- As long as you get one truck down there, that's what you have to do because that truck is going to be the truck that's going to see the [¡re_ ' MRS. MOORE: I'll be sure to let him know this- CHAIRMAN: What we are going to have to do is make it subject to review by the Zoning Board after the right·of·way is in_ T4is could take - what? - I want to look at it because it's going to be a forerunner for what we are going to do for future stuff- MRS. MOORE: You are certainly entitled to look at it if- CHAIRMAN: Somebody will look at it, it may not be me. Somebody may opt not to look at it The nonnal sp.eci[¡cations are the drainage and what you had given us on 11-16-02, what I just read to you_ Is that correct? MRS. MOORE: This is what the Trustees approved. In fact it was also reviewed by the Health Department. I'm hoping somebody along the line looked at it for strength. CHAIRMAN: The right-of-way is nothing. You are creating this. It's just a right·of-way. Anybody else have any questions for Ms: Moore regarding this application? Yes, are you Lisa? MARY KlRSCH: No, I'm Mary Kirsch_ for months- --"-,,~".""_..~~==-~~-~-'-~..-~-~~ JL",,-"'='. Page 6Iof74,Octaber 11, 2002 ZBA Püblìc Rearj\1g Transcript Town afSouthold CHAIRMAN: The new house? MS- KIRSCH: Yes. CHAIRMAN: The hQuse that we¡rtjstakenly thought was this J,9üse in the beginning, and we didn't nnderstand the map. MS. KIRSCH: The 9ctag9n house. CHAIRMAN: I watched the entire c9nstructi9n 9f that. MSc K.IRSCHt I jl)st want t9 'djscUS$ the entirepf9pos¡¡!9f the Edson's. CHAIRMAN: Prüþ9sal afwhat ma'am? MS. KIRSCH: The building package. Right U9W, Y9µ're accepring retaining walls 5' high. They are pf9p9smg 9' high" MRS_ MOORE: N9, 5'. And that's n9t a structure.. CHAIRMAN: That is a structure. MS. KIRSCH: It's c9nsidered a structural part 9f the wh9le building package_ MRS. MOORE: Weare here becanse we've called it a structure far the sake 9f the Building Department to be sure it's included, but the Building Department dgesn't c9nsider retaining walls and sanitary walls structures. Maybe code will change eventually, but far right now it's not. MS. KIRSCH: Okay, and the new stuff that the Health Department depicted could be put in that particular place. MRS. MOORE: Actually the DEC specifically, the location of that sanitary system has to be there because of a very. a piece of wetland - that isactua1ly a finger you can see it there_ It is a measurement of! 00' of sanitary, it has to be 100' from a wetland, and there is a wetland, significant wetlands on the property, and 9n the adjacent pf9perties, but the closest point is that finger that protrudes toward the Edson property. That's what we have to base our location on. MS. KIRSCH: The reason why you bave to do that is because the building package is t90 long_ Ifyoü eliminated or scaled down the house or the deck, or get rid of the p09l, it would be a totally different thing. That would be a possibility. Right noW when you add the square f99tage of the h9use, the pool, the deck, and this above ground septic system, it comes to over 7,000 sq, ft. I mean, welre not talking about a modest house, welre talking about a huge compound, a house on pilings, deck, therels nothing in the whole area according to Corey Creek. I know, I was raised on Corey Creek. You don't see anything like that, it's totally out 9f character_ MRS. MOORE: I just want to clarify, the of the house and deck and pool is. is uot considered in lot coverage. The square footage of the house and pool and decking is 4,700 sq_ ft. to be precise. You cannot consider the sanitary system as lot coverage or the habitable space of the house. You have to maintain the sanitary system requirements and this is where it's recommended it be located. It got Health Department and DEC appf9val for the sanitary system at this location. t"""'\ I ~,,~ i:il~_{' I·, ·1, IÏ> '11;~j ¡h' It iii,'! MS_ KIRSCH: You insist on keeping the pool and the deck and etc. It's a very sensitive area, extremely sensitive, and all of a sudde;n you don't have to comply with front yards, side yards, any kind of setback - it just doesn't seem appropriate, ;¡;; ¡-,. '!Iii ~,~~ < -"~=~-".,.,"""-~ P·age 62 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA P1¡blic Hearing Transcript Town of Sonthold CBAIRMAN: It's a very unique piece of property, there's nö question about it MEMBER TORTORA: That's not what this notice of disapproval is about. In fact, the Building Depa¡tme!]etl¡as aJready·reviewed this- it's. defined as zone. That is - for Southold Town - thars the lowest I¡eight c most of them are up,around 16. That's n()tunique -fur alòt this size, that's not a lot in COmparison to what:$ nonnal in Sonthold. . MS. KIRSCH: As fur as the wetlands? MEMBER TORTORA: As far as the retaining walL The Building Depa¡tment does not even consider them s1ructures. They mnst need - you don't even have to get a building pennit for these a retaining wall in Sontbold ToWJ;L Period. End of story_ Thars not, I mean, maybe they will in the. future. You can look at retainilIg walls all along Lpng Island Sound. Yon can look at retaining walls in between peoplds properties, and go out and ask them, did YOll get a building pennit for this? Did YOll haye. to get a special exceptionJ Di(l ybu have to get a height variance for this? And the answers are no. There's a T_etaining w,,11zo' tall not even two blocks from my house. What rm 1rying to say is lers stick tø the real issnes. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to review the issiles regarding this and c0m:tnent On this atœr the next hearing? MRS. MOORE: Weare goingto have three hearings together. She is very ~liar withthe,proce$s, the Board "fTrustees. There are at least three hearings at the TfU$fees office. The uniqnene$sof this property is evidentfroffi,the survey. The setbacl<ß, as wesélÍd" the~retafuittg walli~ rea,nynotästructute~ ,you ca,n take it ont.ofthe equation, but agi>in, I did it very conservatively, and not knowing how the Bllilding Depa¡tment was going to rule onsomething]ìkethat at the time .theNotice ofDisapprovalwasissned. The house is nöt oversized, it's. relatively modest. . The decking and the pool is lIS;lbl¢ spacearoundyottr 1?roperty beeauseif you look atthe natural buffers th¡¡thave t() be maintained he¡-e, you o¡1!y have 25' beyond the actual building envelope. If you see the sU)'Vey, you h¡¡ve a 50' 11atural.buffi>r, non conservative buffer, from the wetlands. That's a regulated area, and the Truste.es and the DEe have prevented "S from. doing anythijIg .without pennits, Then it's marked as a 75', eXcUse me 25' beyond th~ d>&(ance. th~t's 110n- dis1:urbance buffeL. So Lisa Edson has a¡ctm¡lly limited her area of activity to a very small !!Tea of!hi;; parcel. It's areasonable applicatj()n given the size of the property. Remeµilie¡- this p):Opeµ-/ is double the, ~ize of M¡uy's property_ There's two lots in the front in comparisQn to the 011e lot that these applicants have. CHAIRMAN: What else did you have to say? MS., KIRSCH: Around this retaining walL in the area of this right-of-way which lawn, you will be cutting down trees, not because she wants tö- MRS. MOORE: You were at the Trustees hearing. This was their idea not onrs. Yes definitely, there is landscaping around the retaining wall. She doesn't want to see it any mOre than anyone else wants to see it. It will be landscaped and if you want to pnt a conditiòn On the variance that there sho¡1!d be landscaping niaterialsaround the sanitary walls, she would do it anyway. It's certainly not a problem. The driveway is where their house is, so there's rea:Hy not a lot of room th¡¡t we cannot block the right-of-way that goes down and gives access to the dredged canal. MS:. KIRSCH: I will be using the right-of~way as I go down to the beach_ CHAIRMAN: Y òn have to- MRS. MOORE: She has a right to use it, it's part of her deed conveyance, so certainly she has a right to useìt, there's no intention of blocking it and it also limits our abi1ìty to landscape it too, because you can't block it. Mostly around the house and the property has natural vegetation, and again, there's no intention to clear anymore ifit's not 25' of the building envelope. CHAlRM¡\N: We reserve the right to review the landscaping, which we do all the time. ~.",_~.,.~,-,_.",,~,_,,_,._~,O+.,"=~''-~'~~~_~~'¡'--'''''~_='~_~,_ L '. -""""-.J- .'-----"""""'"' Page!>3 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Pub.lic Heming Transcript Town of SauthoId MS. KIRSCH: If you come out and look at the landscaping, after it's been built, and you suggest cettain things. I'd like to make a point that making sure the drywells don't some kind of fIre. That I 1:hink is really impo$nL CHAIRMAN: That's why we mentioned that" MRS. MOORE: I'm going to check with the engineer to make sure that " what is it, the casing? MEMBER ORLANDO: Pre"cast, load bearing. MRS. MOORE: I'm going to check with the. engineer for load bearings. Be.cause you don't w¡¡nt to" CIIAIRMAN: Any other comment? Hearing no further éÖmments, I'll make a motion closing the hearing. PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** 11:31 p.m. Appl. No. 5193 - MAlNTREE CORPORATION. Request for a detennination authorizing a change of use from an 'adult residence' home to a 'tourist' home for overnight guests (sometimes, referred to as a country inn) for under Sections 100-31 and 100-241, based on the Building Department's June 27, 2002 Notice of Disapproval. A prior variance (#990) granted a change of use from multiple residence to an adult rest home in 1966. Location: 25500 Main Road, Orient; Parcel 18·6-10_ CHAIRMAN: Guess what, Mr_ Lark, we finally got there. RICHARD LARK, ESQ: I have here with me tonight two of the principles of the applicant Maintree Corporation which (inaudible) The Orient Inn. The application that you have is farrly well complete. I'm j~t going to co.mm.ent onsome of the points. I'm not going to read the whole thing because I'm assuming you've all read the petition and the exhibits ¡¡nd I'm hopeful that you have seen the property and gone through the building. If you haven't you know the invitation has been extended to you and is still open until you make your decision. Like I say, most of the stuff that I think is self"explanatory, however, if anybody has any questions on it I will when I get finished be glad to auswer them. I want to start on defInitions though because the Building Department in the "Notice of Disapproval got all hung up on definitions. When they went in on the building application what you do there they use the word 'country inn' and they got all wound up on what an inn was I can understand definition problems because this very board back in 1966 this property was before it as I'lldover the history on it they just merely request a nonconforming multiple residence which it really isn't but that's the way they treated it because that's what the code said. The reason that we are really here is the Building Inspector is exactly correct the use section says whenever there is a change it has to come before the Board of Appeals and he was quite proper in directing with his Notice ofDisaþproval with that I higWy agree you got into defInitions here early tonight I know you dealt with them in the past this application becomes somewhat frustrated with them because what is it? Is it a hotel? Hotel is defined in our zoning ordinance. You heard it tonight they mix them together, hotel, motel, resort, and transient also boarding and tourist hQuses I noticed the notice in the paper irithe thing called it a tourist höuse by defInition in the code that's any building other than a hotel. You just go round and round with this definitional problem. The point I wish to make in this application, and I want to cover non-confonning use from a leg~ point of view I think its very relevant it doesn't really matter what you call it whether you call it an inn,. a hotel, a motel, a tourist house whatever it really, really doesn't matter in the [mal analysis. It is a non~confonning use. It always has been a nonconforming use ever since Zoning was adopted by the town in 1957. Both in the earlier code and in the code we have now, to go ftom one nonconfunning use to another you have to go the Board of Appeals_ The main difference in the early code when they were here in '66 itwas a higher classification.. They use a different form oflanguage. They call it now the same or a more restrictive nature now if that isn't a tongue twister, but in faîruess to the code drafters, a lot of codes enlightened modern codes in the country use that exact language because when OC was researching the,nonconfÒTming use problem how do you go tbere what criteria what standard does the Page 64 of74, October 17,2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town ofSouth01d board use that type of thing which I will get into in a moment and I was surprised that they used that language and they dumped the higher classification language which all the earlier codes had virtually all the earlier codes had okay so simply put that's what we're here all about the along the property prior to zoning the widows bat is branded asa tourist home mainly during the summer months and in the fall season. Then when the application came in it was confronted with the board in '66 they wanted to put in a rest home and the board decided after hearing all the factors that changing to a nonconfonning use would be okay and their they were really dealing with our old traditional special exception categories which we don't have now the special exception thing has been changed in our code it's not the same as it was with all the 12 factors tl1at the board had to go through and based on that they said and considering how it's going to be regulated and considering the need for the community attl1at time they said it was a higher classification then they made their detennination and went on. What I don't think anybQdy really understood is who controls it and I think that's something that this board wants to take under consideration but when I researched tl1e thing on the nonconfonning use and what kind of standards to uSe when you go from one change to another it became a real challenge as to what to look fOr and what not to and I came away with some interesting conclusions. Provisions in those codes wouldfla:tly prohibit change they have found people who study this thatthe where you don'tfu1d any change at all first of all bybackgro~d when the municipality adopts a code and they decide this should be residential, this should be industrial, this should be business and so on and so forth the variedclassifiC¡ltions there's obviously parcels buildings anything in there that don't conform to what they visualize as the master plan. They call them nonconfunning uses courts and planners have histori<;ally said we wantto get rid of those but because of our constitution of the United States (tape change) What happened with thatwhell you get~o the philosophy of it is that they found that not allowing any change because communities do cb,ange it became these nonconfonning uses were not became the responsibility the neighborhoQds became. when that wasn't the intent at all. The enlightened view where you have a rigid prrscri)Dtion of any change Í1):volves the hazard that the effected use may sicken but not die which is 'Yhat happened to the gas station that they tried to eliminate but just sæyed there. You follow me because it didn't beèOme ecqnomical1y viable. The one that comes to mind in Riverhea;d across from the Elks we used to have one of the original McDonalds places called Ricky's and it was a gold mine, but when it died it becawea harbÍ1):ger for dope trades because of the neighborhood what happened that's what happened with theseuol1conforrning usest¿ enhance the community rather than to tear it down because even an abandonment - t:J;1e altetnative change is prohibited - may result in a vacant nonconf9rming structure which is. useless for its ìnten<j,eµ purpose, but too sturdy to condemn if this was the case aIild tQO large or inadapt¡tbl~ to conVert to a proJ¡itabk CQnf011J).ing use so ordinances would permit change toa more restrictive use such as Southold ToWn are more realistic and are more to court with the attainable ends of zoning whiph is what you guys. are here for this more restrictive use they assume the more restrictive use will be less jncompatible and tl).e change will better the neighborhood. It reduces the hazard of potentially decaying uses and inpreases the opportunity to make more economic and a less deleterious use of the land if it's in a b~ess'suchas we are dealing with here you want it to succeed because· if it succeeds and is profitable it ~ill enhance things ratl1er than have it go bust parenthetically the adult rest h?me got into pro'blems not beca,use of the building or it's layout or anything else but because it was cOl1trolled by the NYS Dept. of Health New York State, not Suffolk County and the Dept. of Social Services ala Medicare, Medicade and things like that. They ran into some accounting violations that real1y kirj.d of put them ont of business. It wasn't the building or anything else it was _like we've seen in our èorporate in !be last6 months of this country. That's what really shut them down it was the abj.¡ses of the [manceS of the operationespeèially the people in the Medicare/Medicade were paying fdr some of the seniors that were living there. Not the care, the care I understand from Laura who gave you an affidavit was always excellent that was never the issue. It was the money. MEMBER ORLANDO: It was the W orldcom and the Enron. MR. LARK: You got it. It wasn't the care of the people. In fact the owners did a good job. They were able to disperse all of the 19 people in there when the hammer fell because of the economics of it. But anyway, back to the - I think the whole idea in the nonconforming and using of the physiology of the least restricted use is to pennit a change where the new use is less injurious to the area here we have you're all familiar with it the residential area in say Rt. 25 there in Orient. Whether a proposed new use or is less injurious or involved in more than just a simple examination of the basic classification of uses that's why I Page 65 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of Southold was getting into the defInitions it requires rather an estimate of the effect of the proposed use in relation of the area where it is to be maintained. And the key there, what to watch is the new use is it more compatible with the neighborhood than the old use. That's really what they are getting at when you study the writers of this area of nonconfonnìng uses and so on and so forth. That really becomes the criteria that you use in your opinion as to that corporate language 'more restrictive nature' you know what the heck is that. I submit to you what the applicant will tell you tonight and what is in the petition. What they have done there and what they propose to do is defmitely going to have less impact or if you would more restrictive nature than what was existing there when the adult rest home was in operation and the Board of Appeals and you're given your copy of that decision and you can look at the analogy and what they had to go through then and they were using a little bit different standard and I don't think you can use the same criteria but an interesting thing happened when it comes to regulation and I think you should be aware of this because it was a real education to me when the town said okay you can do an adult rest home the jurisdiction to run the rest home came out .of the State Depart1nent of Health, not the county the state they regulated they said what they can do what you hfld to put in when you see the metal stairs in the back there's a fIre escape that was required by the State theY dictated aU the things they said they want the kitchen over here because you see I gave you all copies of all the CO's and all the Building Permits you have there. They dictated the whole thing. When the - Ms_ Turtorra and Karen Voss bought it, they were under the impression that the :ijealth Depart1n~t, the county was iµvûlved and 011,e of the ;fltstthings they did - they went to the County to find . out what the requirements would be t@ turn. this into - if you would - a country inn, an inn, a hotel whatever you want to call it. And they were shocked to fInd out ]hat yes as soon as the adult rest home ce1(ses, and then you lease it ontto an overoight transient guest or what have you the hotel type concept youiverun out of room the county does give jurisdictionifyou Ij.ave mOre than 10 bodies in there at anyone pþrticulartime you know 10 people renting thecoUlfty controls it. What they are interested in is when you n~ad their regulations they are into the food servicing ~ow your kitchen is run and all those health requiremeJits for food preparation they are really big on ¡hat and they are also then big on the waste water manageme11,t as we all know and of course water supply!¢d S<!, Qn and so forth. Curiously enough they weren't.that interested in fIre safety and stuff that I thought that they would·be interested in. You have to go through this laborious, confusing labyrinth ofhureaIlcracy if you are more than 10, and they make a classification - I forgot what the number is i:fmorethan 14 or 15 that's even different - then you go to waste water management before you can come back - it's really involved. If you're under 10, they don't care, they don't care. CHAIRMAN: 10 or under. MR. LARK: 10 or under they don't care. MEMBER TORTORA: That's 10 or under rooms? MR. LARK: No, people. They deal with people. As it's totally ludicrous when you consider what the industry who deals with rooms - you know how many hotel rooms you have, how many motel rooms you have, how many boarding house rooms you have, they deal with people. 10 or under they don't care. MEMBER ORLANDO: How many bodies can this place accommodate? MR. LARK: We'll get to that. Oh, a lot of bodies. We'll come to that with what they want to do with what they did. So what Joan and Karen did was interesting. They said okay we want to make this something really special. Let's not get involved with going forward with all of this improvements and all this other stuff. Let's restore what was there because with the adult rest home they did a lot of modifications which were not in conformity with the original design of the house. They put up different walls and stuff like that. What they did is they brought the building back to it's original pretty much it's original type of situation and they kept it 10 or under. The county would check with them, what have you got in there, how many, so on and so forth and as long as there was 10 or under they really didn't care what they did. And it was only when they went to the town because they realized they had to start conforming to the ADA all these other laws that have come into effect with the handicap and believe it or not in the adult rest home 2 bedrooms back to back they share common showers and common toilets with separate entrances and there ~~~'."-"'''~"~~~.'''-~------"=.~-~--~"'- .-"~'-~''''~~'-~''-''~~--'-"''-~-~-~''''''~-=~~~~---'''~'-' ~~'- ~---""""------ ,.--... I "',- f"\.. \ .~ Page66óf74,October17,2002 ZBA :prn,lic Hearing Transcript Town of Southøld was room where you could make each one a shower and have a vanity and a toilet so they wanted to put iu effect another,bathroom. . MEMBER TORTORA; Kitchenettes? MR. LARK: No, no kitchenettes. So anyway, the Building Department said no we're not going to allow you ill do that. They're not going ill let you put in a. handicap ramp. I went down there with the Building Inspector because the handicap ramp that was in there with the adult home is like a slide. I said this can't lk He said I know - get before the Board of Appeals, get your uSe variance, r realize you should have the this handicap ramp and all of these things_ r took him. throngh the building just to make sure there was nothing else' that is was missing on fire safety and anything else. He says eeverything else is pretty much - the electricaJ has. been n¡odexuized because the state insured in all - the state believe it or nQt wa" mpre concetned ~th the fjre and safety aSJ(ect than the Cö'UItty was, So the whtYlè thing willi wheoAb,eywent with thé adu;Lt horny, when they ckn¡f.eP- the OJ:iginal hDIise a little bit. it was ¡iII. f.eared fowar\ÌB thit! typp of oPeJ;at!Dn and so, ~ I said; it w:a& ¡tr<il,beduca:tion. S~ I sa\n w]1at are we f""I~? . Ther bnd apprøved by the state 19 :fì:ill tJnoe'poople there36D days a w"ar, 3 meaIs a !lay, and II> show you hÞw~g"t$,¢azy, the staíe lDved t 'te kifch~n hec'l1!8e tJ+ey, designed j:heki,t¡;hen for them - the staíethealm departrriènt - -the c¡;)J]]jty hea!J:!;: tk;pm;tment saidi¡Íf y,ØÍ1 gcimore than 10 peopk Ì1>;hpre, we don't-like that kitchen, '1'« want yOu. ta da tripi.e· sink, you kn_'this, al1)tbe "ther !)!peS of thirigs, It"g,ets to b" a real ;ZO<Y. . MEMBER TORŒORA; How 1I'1any.people and how l!lJ¡1ly rOOI)J$ _ Y0)l proposing? MR. LARK' They would like to b..ave 10 .rooms, A. tþtal òf I 0 rooms, that's what th"yare prapasing and they Mvetüdosomeworkonsome. That's correct. MEMBER TORTORA; Tbeywant 10 goestrooms_ MR. LARK: 10 goestrooms. That would be a good way to put it. Right That will take them over the 10 people obviously. MEMBER TORTORA: r just want to get some real, solid facts in. MR. LARK: Okay. MEMBER TORTORA: There is a kitchen in the facility that will be used? MR. LARK: No, in the rooms, no. There's a central kitchen, yes. MEMBER TORTORA: What will the kitcheu be used for? MR. LARK: Well, right now, it's just used to do breakfast which is nothing more that coffee and rolls. MEMBER TORTORA: Continental? MR. LARK: Yes, continental type things. They would like to have an accessory - I have to caIl it a restaurant with it. When you look at the floor spacing and everything on it and the expertise that they had. It could not accommodate safely more than 60. lIooked around for the criteria that some other codes used when they have a hotel, if you would, for lack of a better word and they use it about six to a room. Now you are talking seatings - six seatings to a room for an accessory restaurant. That's what they kind of figured. I was talking to them and I said could you get 60 there and they said oh yes we can fit that in very h(illdily because what theive done - they've opened this up to the comtnunity on occasion -like the historical society is had meetings there wheu they couldn't use Pokatuk Hall or someplace like. that - they have had other types of meetings like that there. They just wanted not the foad but to see what the seating and the tabling would be and with the bed and breakfast aud everything, they feel that that's not going to be . a problem, changing any of the configuration of the building - so that's another use that they would want is ..--~.".·.~-~.·"".,~~=,~.=,--,._~·Y_=~=~'--==-~"·""~~=""'"-_, ...", ;"\ ( , "'--- CI'~ ··1 ìl ¡,.., Iii: .1,1.1 II -"I" "1"· !I I ,~ ' ïìi' '~I! I ~! i i -~ ~~---- Page 67 of74, October 17, ZOOZ ZBA Public Refiring TranBcript Town öfSouthold an acc~ssory -the other One would be eventually in time which makes a lot of sense in the back to put a SWÌ1tI1I1Ìng pool. They would like to do that. MEMBER, TORTORA: Let's \Uckleone ofth~se big mousterproblems at a time. MR. LARK: Okay. MEMBER TORTORA: The accessory restaural1t is that part of this application? MR. LARK: Well it dependß on how we are going to do definitions, aI1d that's what I'm saying to you_ If ypu call it a transient hotel, yes it's right in there, you can have that. If you call it a boarding house or a tourist 1:1ome, theya)low food accommodations - it says so. in the defU1itioIJ., That's why I thoughtJ woul4 cpm.e aµdtellyou everythfng.thattþ~y Wal1ttu do in th~future. Ifyoµvebeeu thf'{e you seewbát they þ.!Lvetb.er~todayarid see if it coul<):'I:)e encompflSSed in this moTe r~tricrive us~ if that's ';Vhat you fmd - we ar~r~legated that w~ have to do thatµnder the code, I'm ~g to foElowthe law here. You JUStcan't open thedporhere,Y9u !mowwe Ilavetostay within the restrictiousthatwehaye here. So yes,. the code dpes pr9Wide for that now is it morerestricwe than it w¡u;before, ye~ 365 me41S' three fÌ1I\es a day it is because - MEMBER TORTORA: Say that again. M¡t LARK: Ih the adult home, they serve. 3 meals a¢ly365 days a year for the seniors and there was 19 people there. MEMBER HORNING: Yes, MR. LARK: And this is not going to get anywhere close to that. That just can't be because this business, you've heard SO much abOht thishote]/motel business, but it's clear and they have their records here. You take Monday, Tuesday, Wednes¢ly, there's nobody there, you !mow the weekends of course there is. MEMBER. TORTORA: The problem is we're probably not going to be able to close this one up tonight. It's going to take some thinking. MR. LARK: Yes it is. MEMBER TORTORA: The prpblem you're into is this - that a restaurant, the minute you say 60 seat restaurant, there is up limit ou the hours or open to the public. Will you be serving lunch, breakfast, dinner. I'm just thinkihg out lbud here. MR_ LARK: Do so, because I've gone through the same agouy. MEMBER TORTORA: Then you do 60x3 and you come up 180 and that's much more than 10 people_ MR. LARK: Right. The restaurant is primarily, if granted, it would be aI1 accessory to the people who are staying there, obviously breakfast aI1d lunch- MEMBER ORLANDO: Not open to the public then? MR. LARK: Well, it is open to the public- MEMBER ORLANDO: Uuless they are staying there- MR- LARK: IfI'm staying there aI1d I invite you to come have dinner with me, that's - I understal1d the di.¡emma. I went throµgh this- You CaI1't just limit it - the only people who Cal1 eat there have a ticket who's staying there. You see that, it's the diletnn¡a you have with that. I don't know how to handle that, I'll be honest with you. '~'.~<""""~ Pago 68 of74, October 17, 2002 ,ZBA Pu¡'1ic IIoarlng Transcript Town of Southold MEMBER TORTORA: In a B&B, tho B&B food is only for tho people staying there. This is not going to be the Same thing. CHAIRMAN: Well, that's wh"t they Proposed. MEMBER HORNING: The code dQesn't exclnde people going there as I understand- MR. LARK: No it doesn't. MEMBER TORTORA: A restaurant is a separate use_ MßMBERHORNING: It's a11ow¢d though. MR. LARK: It's allowable yes. MEMBER TORTORA: But not in this, ¥R LARK: My point is that it ¢xist¢d before - in effect you had a restaurant b¢cause they were feeding these 19 people- MEMBER TORTORA: A private restaurant. MR. LARK: Yes, private restaurant. The help and them, they are the only ones who basically ate there. That's c'Örrect. MEMBER HORNING: Mr. Lark, was this premise the owner occupied? 'IMR.. LARK: It could~beithasnttbeenit is in the sense when anybody stays there, one of the owners is in ihe building 24 hours. They've done that right in the beginning for obvious reasons. They wanted to mak¢ Sure- this is a fledgling thing and they wanted to make sure they had control. One of them is there all the time when there's anybody staying overnight. That's true. MEMBER HORNING: Like in a B&B, the owner is there- MR. LARK: Well it's part of the honse, yes, MEMBER HORNING: In a tourist home the owners are there. :MR. LARK: Well, it's their home, it's a requirement. MEMBER HORNING: But in this case- MR. LARK: It's not a requirement. Basically that's all they are asking for and then of course, like I say, they used th¢ facilityfor when people got cut short and they couldn't do- like the historical society wanted to- the church group was another that usod th¢ parlor and the stuff to hav¢ a little meeting because they couldn't get, MEMBER TORTORA: We need occupancy, is it two couples, one couple- MR. LARK: This is Karen Voss, one of the owners and Joan Tototoro, one of the other ones, and her husband, Howard couldn't be here tonight. The question is the rooms, how many people, so on and so forth. MS. VOSS: The rooms are set up for two people pet room. CIIAIR1.1AN: You want-to exceed that 10, is that what you!re telling me? _'_~__'_·"·~_·___·ë~·~·""...,._",,~__"'~~~=-c_.~~~.-=*_r-==_ - ""-""""""'~~ Page 6g 0[74, Üêtober 17, 2002 ZBA Public He8IÙ¡g Transcript Town of Southold MS. VOSS: Yes, we're 1rying to go for 20 people in 10 roolllS_ CHAIRMAN: Ilow many rooms did I see when I was there? MS, VOsS: You saw 5 in the front and 1 in the back. They were op\,u as guest rooms CHAJRMAN: Isaw a total of six. Plus your room down stairs in back of the kitchen. That would be 7. MS. VOSS: Therè's another room on the 2nd floor in the back which isn't open yet. CHAIRMAN: That would be a total of 8. MR. LARK: There's 8 pb,ysica1 rooms as we exist. As we are today_ 8 distinct rooms. CHAIRMAN: Well, they'd have to use the 3d story then. MR- LARK: You'd have to. Without changing the blueprint of the building, you'd have to. CHAIRMAN: I thought you wanted to use the 3d story for your own use. MS. VOSS: One of the things we were thinking of doing if a room wasu't renting then we could use that rOOm - part of the 3'd story is unused - it's very large - and it could be broken up into a smaller area. Wbièh with iwo rooms that we're considering for the 3" floor do uot take up the entire 3d floor, probably nohveu half ofi!. MEMBER TORTORA: I'm going to ask- because of the late hourI would like you to give us a one or two page outline of what you want, number of guests per room, number of desks per room, number of bathrooms, one kitchen with a 60 seat accessory restaurant whatever you want to call it, you total hollIS of qperation - 5 months a year, 12 months a year - 2 meals a day, 3 meals a day - think it through. Because of the late hour, but I do want to give this a lot of thought and there's also a womau patiently waiting here. CHAIRMAN: The other issue is alcohol. That's another issue. MS. VOSS: I don't think - if we do open a restaurant, I think we need to apply for a pennit- CHAIRMAN: I think you have a problem with that because it's a wood framed building_ MS, VOSS: In other words, those are things we need to look into. MEMBER TORTORA: Give us a vision of what you want. That's what I need to have because I don't have that clear in my head right now. MS. TOTOTORO: Can I give you MEMBER TORTORA: You can, but at 12:04 a.m., I'm not going to promise any of" it's not going to go very far. MR. LARK: I don't blame you, it has been a long evening. We could do that. MS. VOSS: Would this have to be presented at another meeting? CHAIRMAN: No. MEMBER TORTORA: I'd really prefer to see it in writing so when we have the next hearing I have a chance and the board members have had a chance to look at it- """"",,- Paße 70 004, Octobèrl7, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of Southold MR. LARK: MEMBER TORTORA: Yes, right. JOAN TURTORRO: I'm not sure- CHAIRMAN: We need your name, dear. MS. TIJRTORRO: I'm Joan Turtorro. The contract a restaurant as a roadway, the concept is; a rear country inn and people come to the inn also as beautiful place to stay, a wonderful place to eat, and if they choose to eat, they can eat. thexe. Many people who come to Orient - there are very few places to eat- they have to go trave!íng a long distance to eat dinner and even lunèh. What I'd - what we'd envisioned i~ a country inn,where you have lodgings, there would be food for you and that is the feeling you have of '3Iha1 we'd 111œ to .accomplish -,not a roadside - you kuow - if people were served - we're serving people who want to go àw..y for a weekend wilt come to. Orient, and many of our guests do to visit lliends, to go 19 affaÍ1;s·"I1d to have apleasant stay and todèel they have a little bh of a home índependen¡ oftheÍ1; family and £:iends. It's a very, v.cry close comn¡unity feeling. We want to keep thai. MR. LARJ(: I do understand what you're saying ahemt the <estaurant. It could very well be after they've thoµghithis oµt ·that it hasn't bèen because it really hasn't been a really subjept on it that it could be ín the neighborhood of-for la:ck of a better wÓrd - a private restaurant - ín-other wpTds yon have to be staying there or if you ínVÍte me, you're stayi)lg there -, you follow what I'm trying ta say - you invite somebody over. I did findthis out.in pass1ng_ A l'\fge,amount of people who stay there are VÍsitíng people in Orient. They are thère for a reason. It's not a destination per say it is for a lot of them go to the wineries it's a lot of people Visiting people. MS. TURTORRO: Youknpwas well as I do, ])ick- MR. LARK: You can't police it. MEMBER TORTORA: A,you can't police it and B, you can't say okay, we're just taking people jfom here. MR. LARK: I went through th"t analogy with them, and that's why I said what would it support and that's when I started to look around and 60 seems to be what criteria itis that they use if you h"ve 10 rooms· 60 seat restaurant- stuff like that. Not that it's used aU the time. We got stopped because they wanted to put in two \hil1gs, the handicap and· these bathroom showers So they have private - these two rooms upstairs that's whytl¡ey ate re<llly pressing not to delay it too long, but I realize that we have to look at the big pictureaJso_ CHAIRMAN: WeU we have to do it ín stages. MR. LARK: We don't.have to do it today. That I don't mind if you think that would be the better way to go. I never thought of that, but I know w4at you're saying_ MS TURTORRO: How can you give us state approval? CHAIRMAN: You stated it as aB&B. That's how you stated it first. MEMBER HORNING: But that's ouly for a certain nlJrtlber of rooms. What is the use now, .Mr. Lark? MR. LARK: It's like a B&B ín a lot of ways_ Then the. Health Department gets ínvolved - they haven't done that they've tried to stay clear of aU that. So they've limited it to 10 people_ MEMBER HORNING: I.don't see how they can uSe it for anything except for a residence if it's not an adult home and itls not then gìven a special exception. {~"'\\ \' \-.,.- --- .....~~- Page 71 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public H".nng Transcript Town of Sónthold MR. LARK: That's why we are here. Wé are in limbo right now_ C~EJ;1AN: What \Ve sl¡QU¡4 40 is give you a special e"'ception for a 13/i¡:B temporarilY - not t0l1Ì.~t- but that's what we shoµldgive)'Qu. TJ1en when the situation evolves that you want to go fårth.er then we have further hearings on those aspects of that . MEMBER TORORA: MEMBER HORNING: It is an allowable use in a residential zone though. It's owner occupied that's the problem, MR. LARK: If it were non-confor¡ning in that sense it would not be necessarily- CHAIRJv1AN; Idi<\n't1:J1e'1" 13&B in the pure sen$e pfthe \\,0r<1 I meant B&B in the pure sense of what we are $eeing noW?Ud.the way ypu're oper",tipg. l'1:J1notreally saying 1:h",t it needs to be a special exception it maybe a- convertible use, VIUi~èe; ThattsTea11y what it is. In'other words we're r:econverting- MR. LARK: We are getting sophisticated_ I know what he'$ talking about. CHAIRMAN: The re-conversion ofan adult home to a status. that is similar to a B&B. MEMBER HORNING: It was a tourist home wasn't it? MR. LARK: It never was. MEMBER TORTORA: Way, way back. MEMBER HORNING: Wasn't it a tourist home that went to an adult home? MS. VOSS: It was a private residence then a tourist home MEMBER TORTORA: Let's give it some time to think about it so we CaIl through what a tourist home is- go through all the possibilities. MR. LARK: Yes if you can come up withsomethiug better than I could - that's why I said definitions you ha"" to stay away ITom- you could go crazy with it MEMBER TORTORA: The most important thing is an outline of your plan. Then we can look at the code, we can look at the C01)..cem areas, and we can get back to you. CHAIRMAN: Are you shutting this down for the winter? MR. LARK: No. CHAIRMAN: You're going to continue. The oilly way to get around the whole thiug is the use variance. It's the only - MS_ voss: I'm sorry what? CHAIRMAN: The use variance. That is really the ouly way to get around it MR. LARK: A use variance. MEMBER TORTORA: You aren't going to get one_ I~r,-, ~ '_"_~_"_""'~""'-_~~_=~'""'=-=..,~~_~o_.-.,,~~.-..===Iw="'=='>-_~L_-"- (,"""\. i ~-."...... ~~~-~".""'.,=."" Page72of74, aetobe< 17, 2002 ZBAPublic Heariug Transcript TOW11 of Southold CHAIRMAN: Why can't you get one? MEMBER TORTORA: How many use variances are given in NYS every year? CHAIRMAN: A handfuL Th,re'S a chance. MEMBER TORTORA: Yon can apply for attorney's fees from yonr variance. MR. LARK: It's all numbers. CHAIRMAN: Let this young lady speak. State yonr name for the record please. DARLENEMCGUn:rn:rS: My natne is Darlene McGuinness. I'm the neighbor I don't have any problem with the'iDn. I think they are doing a ",ry good job with the B&B and it's very nice and everything like that. The .only thing I'm. wOIxied·about is 1 reany don'twant to see a restaurant tliere_ I don't want to see a barroom there and everybody tbat·lives around m, is residences. It's not any kitìd of - CHAIRMAN: Iknowtbat. MS. MC(RJINNlS: That's the only thing I haye to talk about. I don't want that to happen. CHAIRMAN: Thank you_ The question is whether or not to recess this. MR. LARK: You want this business plan type thing for lack of a better word. MEMBER TORTORA: If you give us a specific detailed- MR.- LARK: When do you want to reéess it till? CHAIRMAN: We'll recess it till December 5th. But I'm not positive we're going to be ready then. We have a very huge sc.hedule on November. MR. LARK: Their intention is to have a - the handicap thing they can live without for awhile, they should have it as you well know because of public accommodation, but it's the bathroom thing that really screwed things up there. CHAIRMAN: What you have to tell us is what you preliminarily want to use in reference to the amount of rooms. MR_ LARK: Okay. CHAIRMAN: Then we can detennine that aspect of it again, preliminarily. MEMBER TORTORA: Just prioritize them on yonr list. MR. LARK: Okay. MEMBER TORTORA: That's easy. Let's look at the whole thing - prioritize where this falls into a zoning category ~ Lets hear the concerns, the restaurant in a residence. CHAIRMAN: It isn't going to happen. MEMBER TORTORA: It isn't going to happen. MS. VOSS: What about just feeding onr guests period? ....."....." i- ~-~ Page 73of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Tr¡¡nscnpt Town ofSol1fuoId CHAJRMAN: I think that's an issue there. By the time YOl1 got done with the Planning Board on sito plans with a restaurant. I'd hate to See what that property would look like. MR. LARK: I do~'t tbink they eyer envisioned that it would be open to the pl1blic, you know with the thing. It Was just 1t¡;;in1yas an acco11)!l1od;;ti{)n.to the people there. Apparently what's happened is a lot of the peopl\),stayiM there say "where Gan we eat?" There's nothing, well there's a couple of places fairly close, but hot thatc1ose. MBMB;ER TORTORA: The way Suffolk COl1nty Health Department look at it, the way our zoning code looks at restaurants is very MR. LARK: Yes see that's the problem. ¡yœMBER TORTORA: The way the heal1,h departmeJ1t looks at it - that's the way all down the lWe. CHAIRMAN: You gtlys ate still on a well right? MS. VOSS: Yes. CHAIRMAN: We'll go to December 5th. MEMBER TORTORA: Basically the health department finds it sanitary? MR. LARK: They don't care as long as it's 10 or under bodies. MEMBER HORNING: Well - a restaurant? CHAJRMAN: Y ol1're asking for more than that? MR_ LARK: Now they know they have to go to - I was getting into that - what's going to happen if we get into this hotel status from the county defuritioJ1 Or point of view - they are going to be running the show. It's like the state ran the show for the adult home. MEMBER ORLANDO: They'll dictate everything. MR_ LARK: Exactly, better word than I had. They dictate everything. They tell us where you can do, when YOl1can do and so on and so forth. X'l\ give you an example - when I was talking to them preliminarily trying to understand the mindset, the guy says to me, you know that metal stair you've got gomg back as a rITe exit out the second floor in the back - first thing we're going to make you do is take that down_ I said for what reason" he said, we <\on't like it. I said what do I put up? Well we'll tell you at the time. I don't like that. Which makes no sense to me_ The state dictated the metal and where it went and so on and so forth. So that's the kind ofhar"ss that they are going to get mto once they go above 10. But economically they can't stay at 10 forever bôcause that's a losing proposition from a dollar and sense point of view. MS_ voss: It would help l1S to have showers - people like to haye their own showers - they have a problem sharing showers. First step showers_ MR LARK: So we're going to get the l1se approved - it's the trick (inaudible) that's what's going to happen here. I don't mind you doing it in stages if you think that's the way we've got to go here. CHAIRMAN: We've got to do it in stages. MR. LARK: Becal1se that way it's not going to grow. MEMBER TORTORA: If it can work. Page 74 of74, October 17, 2002 ZBA Public Hearing Transcript Town of Sonfuold MR. LARK: I'm not against fue concept becanse- MS. VoSS: We can't PaY f<ir eve~g now anyway_ ¥R, i-ARK:, They have to get so many pennjts to get out of where 1hey ¡¡¡-eright now - it's tremel;ldous - the fir)anyia! investment it would take. Just to get beyond the next step. C;HAlRMAN: I nllike a motion to recessing it to December 5"_ We'll take the first step at that point. MR. LARK: We'll try to get you within the next two weeks - is that fair euough? Has everybody seen the bniWing So that when we'reta!i<:ing ¡¡bout this it inakes sense7 CE'fAIR.MAN: I wanHo se" the Sth to<im. MR. LARK: Whatroom? C;HAlRMAN: The S" room on the 2nd story. MS_ VOSS: It's the same size as the one that's in the corridor. CH.AIR1v1AN: At the end oftbe corridor, as if! was going upstairs, it's the other one - itts the one I'd be going upstairs it's the one to the right of that at the end of the hallway. MEMBER ORLANDO: You were there, I wasn't. MS. VOSS: If you go on that 2nd floor and go towards the back of the building, it's next to small room - to the left of that - the same size_ CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I just want to mention a few things to you - we start to make a decision on a crazy I think we can make a motion on that right now - I believe that's Lydia's is it not? Lydia you want to ma1$:e that motion? MEMBER TORTORA: Motion to approve it. CHAIRMAN: Second. All in favor? AIl ayes_ PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION *** Prepared from tape recordings By Jessica Boger, Transcriber OEC - 3 2- .'~~~. -