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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-10/23/1997 HEARINGAPPE)tLS BOARD MEMBERS ~ ~ '<< r Southold Town Hall Gerard P. Goehdnger, Chairman 53095 Main Road ~..~r~e ~%e~ Tr, P.O. Box 1179 James Dinizio, Jr. Southold, New York 11971 Fax (516) 765-I823 Lydia A. Terrors Telephone (516 ) 765 - 1809 BOARD OF APPEALS TOWN OF SOUTHOLD Final set replaces former draft set of copies. TRANSCRIPT OF HEARINGS THURSDAY, OCTOBER 23, 1997 SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS Prepared by Lucy Farreli from tape recordings 7:02 P.M. - Appl. #4520 - STANLEY PA'~II)WSKI CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Variances are requested for "as built" tennis court construction which exceeds 20% allowable total lot coverage for all buildings and ,structures, and for location with reduced setbacks from property lines, partly located in an area other than the required rear yard. 1785 Crown Lane, Cutchogue; 1000-102-7-4. I have a copy of a survey dated July 6, 1987, and updated March 17, 1988, indicating a penned in area of approximately 59 x (I'11 ask him the distance) and approximately 4 feet from the property line. i have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this amd surrounding properties in the area. Would you state your name for the record please. MR. PA¥tLOWSKI: Stanley Pawlowski. I have what you requested for this evening the a - CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: Neighbor notices? MR. PAWLOWSKi: And the notices and notarized. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK, what would you like to tel1 us about the court, Sir? MR. PAWLOWSKI: It's a blacktop court, it's in back in the sideyard, it's 59 x 115 and I supplied some photographs and you really can't even see it from the road and Pm just applying for a CO just in case in a few years we decide to sell the house I wouldn't want to go through this in the futu~e. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There are beautiful photographs. MR. PAWLOWSKI: Thank you. ffage 2 - Transcript of Hearings Meeting of October 23, 1997 Soutbold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What else are we discussing here in reference to improvements on this site regarding this tennis court, anything? MR. PAWLOWSKI: That's it. The only other thing that I may- do is put up a six foot fence but that's it and I understand that I don't need any variances or anything of that nature. I'm not going to put any lights and it's just basically recreation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK, we'll start with Mr. Dinizio. Any questions? MEMBER DIN~ZIO: No, I have no questions, no. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Tortora? MEMBER TORTORA: No, the fence won't be over six feet? MR. PAWLOWSKI: No, not at all. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: i don't know where I got the opinion that you were putting a 10 foot fence up, but it must of been my mistake. MR. PAWLOWSKI: No, my children play well enough, that, I don't need a fence. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And just in case the ball goes over you can pick a couple of potatoes in the back. MR. PA~,~%OWSK~: Sure. CHAIRMAN COEHRINGER: Mr. Doyen any questions? M~BER DOYEN: No. CHAIRrg~AN GOEItR1NGER: The normal process is to see if there's anybody else in the audience would like to speak in favor? Anybody like to speak against? Seeing no hands we'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving deeision until later. We hope to n~ake a decision tonight. We're not g~arauteeing it, OK. }~R. PAWLOWSK~: Will I have to walt for it? CHAIRMAN GOEItRINGER: No, we'll send it. M~MBER TORTORA: I'1l second that. CHAIRMAN G©EHi~INGER: OK, all in favor? BOARD M~IBERS: Aye. ~Page 3 - Transcript of Hearings Meetm~ of October 23, 1997 ~ Southold Town Board of Appeals ZBA PUBLIC HEARINGS, continued: October 23, 1997 7:15 P.M. - Appl. # 4509 - TONYES REALTY CORP., d/b/a Southold Autometive Corp. (Carryover from 9/25) CHAIRMAN G©EHRINGER: Property Location: Corner of Youngs Avenue and S/S Main Road~ Soutbold, N.Y. T~s is a hear~g that we had opened ~d had tes~ony on from ~e ~st re~r scheduled meet~g, ~d we'H ask ~. Tonyes ff he would Hke to add to ~s appH~Oon? How a~ you te~ght, Sir? MR. TONYES: Very good. How are you rodent? CHAIR~N: We'~ full (jo~ngly - We took Mr. Doyen (board member) out for dinner). MR. TONYES: I'm kind of hoping that v~th a ~ce laugh ~e that it would be done for me. W~le I'm up here, I just w~t to t~ lhe Board very much for ~o~ng me to have a come-up he~ a~. I ~e how busy you are, and the last ~e when I was here I wasn't r~y fee~g well that ~ght. CHAIR~N GOEHRINGER: Yes, I ~ow, you s~d that. MR. TONYES: I probably shouldn't have c~e, but io~ght ff you'H bear, 1 ~ prepared. I took the board's recommenda~ons. I have consulted ~th ~ attorney. And tMs way ff I could make you underst~d, it ~11 be easier for ~ of us. Some of the t~gs I'H go over ~th, what I went over the last meet~g, but I'H see ff ~ ~ m~e a Httle more sense out of it tMs time, OK. I ~ess the most ~por~t t~g t~t I'm trig to say here, ff my appH~on for the variance is dec,ed, it ~ ~use an economo hards~p. I'll lose Bus,ess. I ;~ not be able to conOnue and do New York S~te inspec~ons or rep~r work. I think I menOoned briefly last week as well that the new eq~pment - ~ it's installed in the existing bay, that's fine, we probably- ~ get it ~ there but then I won't be able to do rep~r work cause the macMne ~d the desi~ of the whole macbJne w~ch I went into a Httle det~ ~th the pictures t~t I ~ve you, ~ ~use problems f~m pu~g ve~cles ~ ~d out of the shop. If I stop do~g Cae N. Y. S~ate ~speetions, I feel that 502 of my shop bus,ess is lost, ~d I ~1~ last week you asked me - t~s is one copy for ali of yon they're stapled together, that a, just w~t to We you ihese too. Keep them in order so that I ~n go over ~eh one you. And t~s one. So the thug i ~ve you first is the shop report. Two of the y~rs ~ there are ~ss~g wMch you rely go detailed through CHAIRr~N GOEHRiNGER: W~t a ~ute, I have a s~pped work order ?age 4 - Transcript of Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. TONYES: That's correct, that's the Shop repair of the total business that we do. It started wSth 1.988. Two years of it is missing in there because of a hard drive crash. I have a printout of thai. But, it kind of gives you an example of what my business would like if I stopped doing inspections. Take that average. If you notice over the years if you're looking on the correct Hnes where a business is increasing in the shop. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are we talking about, which year, just in general? MR. TONYES: In general, if you start from -. CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: Yes, just scan all five years? Six years? MR. TONYES: Yeah. If you look at the amount r~ceived here, just re-scan that 124 and then go through it, - MEMBER TORTORA: What year is that Ed? Let's -. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well he's starting out ~Sth the first year. MR. TONYES: 1988. Our business year goes from October 1st ta September 30tho So, if you start in 1989. CHAIR1VtAN GOEHRINGER: 89 to 1990. MR. TONYES: Right, 124. The next page is 130. Here is a hard drive crash. You really can!t go by these two years. You don't have a copy of those two years. Then, jump up to 201 - but this is a significant increase in business. These, even on a computer system, since 1986, so - MEI~IBER TORTORA: TbJs is 1990. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Show~mg Member Tertor~a and exp!air~ng. ) MEMBER TORT©RA: Tl~s is 1999. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's right, he started in 1989-1990 and he's talking this amount (pointing). MEMBER TORTORA: OK~ it came off where it was p~inted. It*s hard to see. It came elf the page. MR. TONYES: I'm sorry. C!tAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's alright. MEMBER TORTORA: OK. ~Page 5 - Transcript of Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, ]997 ~ SouthoId Town Board of Appeals MR. TONYES: It just, all it plainly shows you t~hat this is an increase to the shop. Now, if you go - the second t~ing I gave you was an official letter from N. Y. State. This is to prove that it's not seif~created. I did not make this up. it's not my idea to do this. Does anybody need help with any of that? CHAIlglVlAN GOEHRINGEi{: Nc, we're getting it. MR. TONYES: i cannot afford to lose bus~ness, OK, without doing inspections. It would cause layoffs and possible foreclosures. I gave you a few months of the, you know, a few of the finaneiai records just to show you that the increase from shop business is increasing. If you wanted to scan through that letter, the offieiai letter of New York State, it basiea!ly says, that if you don't get with it, you don't conform, you'll have to drop out of the system. You know, this is what we want. New York State requires this. It's nat us. I want you also to notice with regard to the second bundle of pages, where it says on the top, where it says "Gasoline Sates Summary." BOARD SECRETARY:: This one right here. CHAIRIV~&Ni Hold on. MR. TONYES: That's the last thing that ! gave you. CHAIRIv~AN: Go ahead. MR. TONYES: Now, [ have seven years of business here. Now, I can go back 30 years. I can go back to when Richard Grigonis sold his business, when he used to pump over a million gallons of gasoline a year. The more gas you sell, the more money you make. What happens now is that the cars are running more efficient. So, although I probably have probably the same ear count that I had that they had 30 years ago, if you start On, I took liberty of circling the total on it on this one, to make it easier for you to see? CHAIRMAN: Yes. [~i~. ToNYES: If you notice when you scan through, notice the gallons of gas dropping as we get up to the finai year, which the cutoff is about 130,000 gallons less, and a loss of profit if you can notice is approxi- mately $37,000. Se, we look into other areas. O~r areas are to continue to do these N. Y. S~ Inspections' and not lose the shop business. Without that, we're in big trouble. This hardship is not self-created 'like I mentioned already once. It is - if we were to be able to continue the way we are now, I probably can do it for the next 15 years. Things have changed a lot. I have another problem. I wouid like to address the Board on the letter that was sent. You probably reviewed it from George and Bonnie ?age 6 - Transcript of Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Hoffner. Did everyone get a chance to read the letter? (Response, yes). (Pause) Should ! wait while you review the letter? CtIAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can read the letter if you want. Do you want to read the letter? MR. TONYES: If you want, I will. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, read it. We'll refresh our memories. If you have it, Ed. MR. TONYES: I didn't think I was going to have to read it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: You don't have to. MR. TONYES: OK. Let me just address a few of the points in the letter. First of all, they're arguing about a piece of property that i have no control on. It's not my property that they're talking about. The thing that I wanted to say, there's one little thing in the letter they said, they say they have ears en blocks back in Danowski's parking tot. That's not true. That's not me. There was a car on a trailer with blocks, yeah, I noticed that was one of the tenant's cars that was there for about six months and then there's also another t~g there, it says, let's see - not all of the cars there are Southold Autos cars back there, you have tenants, you have customers from Clothes Pub. This is a parking lot back there and that's what it should be used for. I think another thing they made comment in the letter that cars come ~ud go. Well, that's what happens in a parking lot. The Hoffners weren't on my list to ~ out the plans for what I intend to do. If they did, they would notice that there's a 13 x 30 foot - maybe they reviewed the plans, I don~t know. I hope that they did because then this would make it a lot easier for them to understand that the area is a working area where we want a building. You can see this is on the side. We'll open up the hoods of the cars we~li see I don't have six of each, we'll open up the hoods of the cars, we'll take a look to see what they need, maybe we'll do something ~inor outside, but we don't do no major work, but this is a work area where we want to build the cars, not a parking area and not a parking area that we plan to use. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we keep those, Ed? MR. TONYES: You can have them for yonr file, yes. CHAIR~AN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. TONYES. It's getting tee cold to work out there anyhow. I don't like to work outside. I get warmed up here, I get sunburned up there, I don't like that either. We work on a repair, we work on a "pick up and delivery service". In other words, as soon as the car is done, we call up the customer to pick up the car or we'll deliver the car, we'll teage 7 - Transcript of Hearings tMeeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals drive people home. My father is retired, that's ~ he does all day' long, is pick up and deliver ears. We're not - I want to repeat this now, we are not in the business of storing cars. We do not do this as a business, OK. Also, there was a truck that was behind there, I don't know whose it was, they had a -there was a truck there for like six months, there was eulother abandoned car that was from a tenant that lived in the white house on You~gs. I thin~k it was Joe Froehnhoff'er's house. It was a tenant in there - the guy just left his car there. I have no control over these things. What I'm trying to say here is - we also do towing for the Town of Southold, OK. We do emergency tows, we do tows like for somebody, they lose their insurance cards or somethi~lg, so they have to impound the car, so a lot of times we go to the po]ice, where does this car have to go? Does it have to go to us, or ge to your impound? Well Southold Tovfn's impound lot police department is filled up right now. They need more pl~operty themselves, We refuse to tow. We lose business because we're not in tile storing business. We don't sto~e cars. I've turned down at least a half a dozen tows over the summer because I can't hold these cars for 30 days. I'm tryi~ag to pick apart the letter is what I'm realJy doing here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have another one here for you, OK. We have another one up here for you. So, what we're going to do is, we're going to stop your hearing when you're finished and we're going to let you digest the ether letter and then we'll reconvene it age. n, OK. MR. TONYES: Let me give you one letter here, a good letter. CHAIR~[AN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we'll take a good letter. ~R. T©NYES: Listen, I'm not going out eanvasing for good letters. mean, ! could probably get thousands of them. But, that's not what my intention is to do. But, if Khis is what it has to be, i know people would back me up because of th~ way- I've been handling business. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I've already gotten calls from people and had discussions with people regarding primarily business people regarding your application, and there are a lot of people out there that think a ]et of you, alright. I~m not going to name them because they've asked not to be named, but they have cedled me personalty at home. They have spoken to me personally on the street, and primarily Southoid business people and I think I believe I spoke to one Cutchogue or Mattituckian. You know, we understand the size of the property, but please remember what we said to you at the last hearing. The zoning is the issue at this point. We can talk about where we're going to put this thing if you can deal with the zoning aspect. OK, and that's what we're concerned about, OK, so I want you to think about that. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Would you explain to him the zoning aspect to him? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK, Lydia do you want to explain it to him? ~age 8 - Transcript of Hearings ~feeting of October fi3, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER TORTORA: You're asking for an expansion of a nonconforming use. The district which you are in, gas stations are no longer permitted. You're a grandfathered use. To obtain an expansion, that means to expand your use in this district you must meet one of the highest tests in zoning in New- York State, and that test is for a "Use Variance" which means that you must prove that for each and every permitted use in the zoning district, you cannot obtain a reasonable rate of return on your property and that excludes uses that are not-for-profit. The burden is so high, Mr. Tonyes, that in good faith, we recommended that you seek legal advice becanse we felt that this was the right thing to do. I sliil feel that way. I will listen to you. l will read everyt!~ng you have and i will keep an open mind. But, I would feel very bad if I didn't tell you the truth r~ght up front. CHAIRMJkN GOEHRINGER: That's what we're concerned about, Ed. Now, number one~ Lydia is assigned to your file. Mrs. Tortora is assigned to you, thatVs the reason why I asked her to mention this and so, we kind of want to certainly address al/ the issues that you have. The dollar fignres that you have given to ns tonight are very important to us, because they do show a dec,ease in gasoline sales because of the higher efficiency of the automobile today which is assnmed~ ~d we understand that that has to be made up in other areas and that usually is made up in the shop area because you don't sell ice cream~ goodies and so on and so forth, right? Yen sell oil products. And~ you know, motor oil for boats and so on and so forth, airight, But this other area is extremely important for yon to present to us in a proper manner~ and we'r~ not sa~ng you can't present it in a pre)per manner. ~'e're just saying that there is somebody else ou'c there that probably can express it better~ qaicker and more efficiently and that was the purpose of it. Now~ we're nol telling you to do that. We're just trying to give you every possible option. ~t concerns me because there are a lot of people out there that like your service~ that deal with you on a personal basis, on a daily basis~ and they have called me and I have spoken to them as I said, not to be redundant. We're going to give you one more letter, OK. Did you give us that letter - the one that you have "in favor~'? MR. TONYES: No. CHAii%I~LAN GOEHRINGER: OK, weqI take that one and we?re going to trade letters with you, and we're going to ask you to digest this one. Write some notes down and then in the interim~ we're just going to go on to tlie next hearing and then we'll reconvene this one. We have one new hearing and one rehearing. ~t~s going to take about 15 m~nutes and then we'll come right back to you. You can either sit here, sit outside, whatever you want to do. MEMBER DINIZ[O: Can I comment? CHAIR~YiAN GOEtlRiNGER: Surely. ~)age 9 - Transcript Sf Hearings ~ ,~ tMeeting of October 23, i997 $outhoid Town Board of Appeals MEMBER DINIZIO: I got to say, I brought 'up the lawyer part the last time and I~m looking for~ if we're going to grant this, the int~ormation that will allow us to put in on our decision the proper information as to reasons why we're going to go through the zoning change. It will stand up in court. Something that we can't search out the information on zoning and the reasons that would meet the test for a use variance; and the problem is as I think we*ye had may'be four, five applications of this tyl~e. Now- mind you I've been on the Board now for eight years and you see we have what five or six each month, maybe more. i don't think we've ever given one. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we given two. MEMBER D~NiZiO: Sic'ye given two. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, one in Cutchogue and one in Southold. MEMBER DiNIZIO: They're extremely hard you know to justify and though if you need have that, you need to have someone come to us and explai~ your situation in a way that we can make a decision - be it to your benefit or not, based on the taw, based on it, you can't possibly in my opinion supply that information. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: WED., that's not true. He started with, excuse me, with tlie increase of gasoline sales and I mean that certainly has great credence to this particular-. MEMBER D~NIZIO: Yes~ it may. It may% but again, I mean there's so many other things to look at. Certainly, the fact that you have a garage already, you have a place to put this thing. MR. TONYES: Yeah~ the p~blem is here. We'll take that repair business and cut it right in ball if I lase this machine. MEMBER DINIZIO: 1 need proof of that, I need proof - MEMBER TORTORA: We need dollars and sense proof. MR. TONYES: How am I going to prove that 'to you? MEr~BER DINiZiO: That's a good question. I can't tell you how' to do that but I'd ~e you to do that for me. MR. T©NYES: What i'm te ~lling you and I'm telling everyone here, as nice as ! ceca here, that tl~_~s is going to be a big problem. CHAIR1VtAN GOEHRINGER: Devestating, right, it's devastation. ~R. TONYES: I want to tell you something. When I started doing inspections, tt-Js is another thing, I started doing inspections in 1990. Pa~e ]0 - Transcripi 0F Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals That should prove to you that the increase in shop business is not due because, OK, we're good business men, we don't rip off people,, we're liked in the town, yes, but it proves to you we're increasing because we started to do inspections in ]990. That is proof positive that these inspections give us money. MEMBER DINIZIO: But, listen, here's the problem. You want to expand that. For whatever reasons, logical, or illogical, the town decided that that partienlar spot is no longer to be a gas station so that it can be expanded. It's not allowed in that zone. OK? So for us to grant that, it would be either similar to rezoning or use variance. METdBER TORTORA: It's hard to get - MR. TONYES: Well, that's what we want. MEMBER DINIZIO: And it's extremely difficult for you to explain that. Yes, it is. MEMBER TORTORA: It would be easier for you to go to the Town Board because the burden of proof that we have that's upheld in the courts and has come down like Jim said, it has to have - MEMBER DINiZIO: We may end up denying you and yon may be going before the Town Board, but you've got to have, you've got to have all your legal blocks in place, and I can't tell you what they are because I listen to what comes from there. MEMBER TORTORA: That's right, we can't be your attorney. MR. TONYES: I understand what you're saying, and I really respect you guys very much for kind of saying, hey, listen we really don't want to push out business men in this town and not get that feeling from you. But what I'm trying to say is plain and simple. This is just going to be an economic hardship and you can't argue that point. MEMBER DINIZIO: I can't either way. Someone has to explain to me that you can't open up whatever is allowed in that zone and not make a profit and not make a living out of it. Be it an ice-cream shop, be it a shirt shack, be it a shoe-~ regardless of whether. Now, this is the law, and I don't necessarily agree with it, regardless of whether your trained to make a profit in any other business. I'm saying, hey, you do gas, you do motors, you_ do them well, you make money, but the town in its infinite w~sdom has decided that in that particular spot it's not going to be enlarged any larger than what it is right now because it's nonconforming. Now, they have that perfect right, OK. I don't mean to sit here and preach, but, what you have to do now is set up the blocks, tell us exactly the reason why, you know. You could do this, but you wouldn't make money out of it. You could do this, but you couldn't make money out of it; and maybe, just maybe, you could convince enough people on the Board to allow you - and even if you didn't, even if we 'Page 11 - Transcript of llearings ~Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals turned you down, you've set it up so that you ca~ go to some place else, your next step because you have to go through us which would probably the Tow~ Board or maybe an Article 78, and you end up in court. I~IEMBER TORTORA: For example, you need a percentage like you said that you could still use the existing footprint to do the inspections but you couldn't do the repair work, and repair work is a big part of your business. OK. MR. TONYES: Unless we do it outside like the pictures. MEMBER TORTORA: No, I understand that. But for example, that's a generic statement, what percentage, what percentage your repair work is dollars and cents? What's that dollar and cent amount? What percentage is in inspections? What's the dollar and cent amount? What percentage is gasoline? What's the dollar and cent amoo~ut? MR. TONYES: You see, it's not that - MF~MBER TORTORA: I am on~y giving you an example but we can't be your attorney. MR. TONYES: Yeah, it's net the $5,000 worth of revenue from the inspections that bring in om0aually. It's the repair. CIIAIRbIAN: Repair. MI{. TONYES: Repair, when you fail the inspection, you know. 1 have to go through every repair order. I could do it and say I did all inspection. I failed this here, it's all registered with the State. CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: Right, let me just tell you, Ed. ME3/IBER DiNiZIO: One more tbing~ could I just say one more thing? MR. TONYES: Could I just have a copy of what you just read me before and then I'll read this. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have a copy here~. She did that extemporary. MFJvlBER TORTORA: I just memorize it. MEMBER DiNIZIO: Mr. Tonyes, let me just this. I've seen this document for 5 minutes, i am not familiar with your business. But, I can say to you that if you're telling me that the totals for gas, OK, are affected by not necessarily that you don't pump good gas or whatever, it's just that ears are being more efficient. I say to you, then that's not a hardship because every gas station in town would be affected by 'Page lfi - Transcript of Hearings 'Meeting of October 23~ 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals the same way. They all have the same probable percentage of efficient ~4iR. TONYES: I know that. MEMBER DINIZIO: So, it's not unique to you - unique to that piece of property. Now, I determined that in five minutes, What I'm saying to you is you need somebody who's going to think in a legal way that has been through this that can present to us facts so that we can build blocks either to allow you to do it, or turn you down, and let you go on your merry way into an appeal that you may win. OK, but, I'm just looking at - you're right, your volume is down, but I'm assuming t.hat this is not unique to that particular piece of property. That R could be any~-here. That this could be in a zone, titis particular piece of property that's pumping this gas could be in a zone where it's allowed. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well the majority of decrease in sales is when yon have additional activity in the area, or somebody constructing another gas station. MEMBER DiNIZIO: Wet1, that's a possibility, but I can say from living in the town there hasn't been except the one up in North Road. Gas station ( ) You know what I mean? MR. TONYES: Agway used to. MEMBER DINIZlO: And Agway closed down, se, you should have increased volume from that. MR. TONYES: I thought I would go crazy when they closed, hut they didn't. MEMBER TORTORA: Why don't we take that five minute break~ give you a chance to think, us a chance to think and we can then - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great, great, thanks. MEMBER TORTORA: I'll move for a break? MEMBER DINiZ~O: Ne, we'll go to tlie next hearing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we're just recessing it for approximately 20 minutes. MEMBER TORTORA: OK, I'll move that? MEMBER D!NIZIO: Second. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: AH in favor? Motion carried. 'Page 13 - Transcript o{ Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals 7:40 P.M. - Appl. #4519 - CAROLYN H. FISHER CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Based upon the September 24, 1997, Notice of Disapproval, a Variance is requested under Article XXIII, Section 100-239.4A (1) for permission to construct deck addition within 100 feet of L.I. Sound bluff. Location of Property: ]7975 Soundview Avenue, Southold, N.Y. 1000-51-1-7. I have a survey produced by Anthony W. Lewandowski, dated June 24, 1997. On that survey is a proposed deck which is contiguous to the rear of the house and lies approximately 75 to 80 feet from the which they refer to as a timber retaining wall. I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Could you state your name for the record? MS. FISHER: Carolyn H. Fisher. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you? You have a beautiful piece of property. MS. FISHER: Do you need the affidavit that I mailed. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Yes, we do. MS. FISHER: OK, and does anybody need another copy of the survey? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think so. MS. FISHER: I haven't'yet had that notarized. You said we could do it. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: You could sign and I'll notarize it for you. MS. FISHER: OK, all our receipts are there and here's some pictures if that's would be helpful to anyone to see the a. OK, I've had two responses of the three people. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK, why don't you tell us why you'd like to have this deck? MS. FISHER: Weli, it's the only place that a deck can be built from whieh one can see the water and enjoy the lawn there and at either side of the house there's a declivity of falling away. There's a you can see a stone or rather a brick wall on one side and the other side is a drop off stone. Th}s is the only real patch~ where one can put a deck, and we would like to be able to walk out on to it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you know the actual footage to the edge of the lip of the bluff? 'Page 14 - Transcript of Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MS. FISHER: Well the bluff curves a bit, so, at one point one of those pictures was taken from standing on the deck that exists now, at the top of the bluff and that is probably about 75. I mean I haven't made any other one that's over 80 feet. It's hard to measure because you have to go through ail the bushes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I know. Now this deck is not to be enclosed. It will remain open? It's strictly a sun deck and a visual deck? One to visualize. OK, we'll start with Mr. Doyen. Do you have any questions of this lady? MEMBER DOYEN: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Tortora? MEMBER TORTORA: Are there any other alternative places on the - the property is quite a large piece of property that you thought of to put the deck? MS. FISHER: We!l, because of the wall and the fall off on, what should I say, facing the water on the right side, and on the left side the property also goes down into a dip. This is really the only spot that one could put a deck which would be facing the water side. MEMBER TORTORA: The deck would be parallel to the retaining wall? That's what it appears to - MS. FISHER: Yes, it's a square deck. Yes, the edge of the deck would be not quite to the a where the retaining wall is. Does that make sense? Do you want me to point down - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, we know where it is. It's almost constructed with the retaining wall. I mean, it's contiguous to the rear of the foundation of the house and to the a - MS. FISHER: That's right, that's been there for many years. MEMBER DINIZIO: But you're going to be able to walk between the retaining wall and the deck, right? MS. FISHER: Yes. MEMBER TORTORA: And it's S0 feet to the wooden deck~ at the top - ? MS. FISHER: Probably 75 to the wooden deck and S0 to the - MEMBER TORTORA: To the top of the bluff? MS. FISHER: Top of the bluff. 'Page 15 - Transcript of Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Some how it looks like it's more than that when you actually stand in back of the house. MEMBER TORTORA: It's heavily vegetated. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Alright, are you done? MEMBER TORTORA: Yes. CHAIRMAN TORTORA: Mr. Dinizio? MEMBER DINIZIO: No. I'm assuming where the chairs are in these pictures, that's basically the deck. It would be to the edge of the deck, right? MS. FISHER: Oh, yeah, a, the chairs, we were just sitting there when I took the snapshot~ the deck will be 16 feet out from the house and a we'll know around maybe two-thirds or three-quarters of the length of that wooden lit'de fence there that you see on one side. MEMBER DINIZIO: How high is the deck going to be off the ground? MS. FISHER: 3 feet. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: How high? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 3 feet. MEMBER DINIZIO: And then where will the steps, you'll have steps coming off the side? MS. FISHER: Yes, the steps are coming off the front as planned. MEMBER DINIZIO: Off the front towards the water? MS. FISHER: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: So, there not on these plans now? MS. FISHER: They should be. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's on the blueprint. MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, it's on the blueprint. MS. FISHER: Do you need a copy? MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no, I'm just looking at the photocopies. Alright I see. So, the 80 feet is to the steps or are they to the deck itself? ~Page 16 - Transcript of Hearings *Meeting of October 23, 1997 , Southold Town Board of Appeals MS. FISHER: The old deck which is at the top of the bluff now, I think it's about 75 feet to that. There's a curve of the top of the bluff and itts probably, it's about 80 feet to where those, the back of all the bushes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK. While you're standing there we'll see if anybody else has anything to say, OK. Is there anybody like to speak in favor of this application? Anybody like to speak against the application? Any other further questions? Seeing no further comment, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER DOYEN: Second. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: All in favor? BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 'Page 17 - Transcript of Hearings ' Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals 7:50 P.M. - Appl. #4512 - CHURCH OF GOD CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A Variance is requested, based upon the Building Inspector's September 2, 199, Notice of Disapproval, under Artiele XX, Section 205(D) (5) and (100-206B) for an "as built" ground sign in its present loeation, with interior lighting and brick base. Location of Property: 15625 C.R. 48, Cutchogue; County Parcel ]000-101-1-10. This hearing somehow is linked to the prior hearing, because this very nice gentleman came before us the last time and told us that they wanted to build this very beautiful sign which it is very beautiful. Is there something you'd like to add to it before me talk to you about it. Just state your name again for the record. MR. STILLEY: I'm Earnest Stilley. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you. MR. STILLEY: I'm fine. Nothing really that I eau think of. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How did you get the sign in that location is the issue? In other words, how did you build it so close to the road. MR. STILLEY: Well I called it and measured from the lines on the street, to the highway, 20 feet, and that was the only best landmark I had at that time to measure from there and I'm assuming it was you know where it should be at. That's where I measured at from the beginning. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As for the lighting situation, the internal lighting of it. When we made the decision before, or we gave you the decision before, we never deal with internally lit signs in residential agricultural districts, OK. All the signs that are ever approved by this Board, if they are lighted, are lighted by external means. Meaning spots to it, shielded to the property itself. The internal lighting is only allowed, if any, on business signs, alright, and of course this is not a business piece of property. There's is no doubt in my mind that you did a magnificent job with the base and the entire position of the sign. It's a very beautiful sign. But, we are telling you, that you cannot internally light it. We realize that it has those bulbs in it, it has that capacity and of course you did tell us at the last hearing that you did construct that sign prior to actually knowing that you could do this and the Board did grant the size, the oversize of the sign. So, just so you're aware of that, OK. We'll start with Mr. Dinizio. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I've got to say when we voted on this before, I was always under the impression that it was an internally lit sign. The specks said that it was translucent made of translucent material and you know, we did ask the question whether it 'would be lit and you did say yes, it would be and it's in our minutes so, I feel like it may be a little bit unfair now to tell the man to shut off its lights when you know, I'm assuming you assumed that lit meant whatever it meant and 'Page 18 - Transcript $f Hearings 3/Ieeting of October 22, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals again, I did look at the specks and I assumed that what we were dealing with even if it didn't say internally lit, it does say, you know, translucent and when you say translucent, you know~ you know you're going to put something inside, you wouldn't have a translucent box without having something inside. So, I assumed that everybody else assumed that it was translucent in that it was lit. So, I'm a little bit troubled with not allowing you to have that. Certainly it wouldn't be, I mean what are you going to do, shine spot lights on it now~ it wouldn't seem like it would make much sense to me. And, the distance again, I had thought at the end of the meeting that was exactly where we had agreed to p!aee it and you know, if it wasn't (end of tape) I mean I didn't measure it. I mean it looks to me that it's that close and yes it would be 15 to 20 feet, you've answered the question as how far from the road. It's probably 20 feet all around, 15 to 20 feet and we did vote. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: What are you reading from Jim? MEMBER DINIZIO: From the transcripts, June 19, 1997. So~ I personally don't have any trouble with it Mr. Stitley. You know, if other people do, then we'll have to hash it out, but, I think it looks pretty nice. I have never seen it lit, I don't go that way at night, but, I assume it looks OK. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just for the record because of that large telephone pole, it's in front of it~ and it not only protects the sign, but lessens the impact of the sign in its present placement. So, just so, I don't think that we are totally upset where the sign is, to be honest with you, so we've reached that hurdle I think to that point. I'm not speaking for my fellow Board IVIembers, but~ you did a beautiful job, really it's a beautiful job. MR. STILLEY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Tortora? MEMBER TORTORA: No, except that it was my elear understanding that it was going to be externally lit because internally lit signs are prohibited in the agricultural districts. I had no other understanding. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr, Doyen? MEMBER DOYEN: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While you're standing there~ we'll see if anybody else would like to speak in favor? Anybody like to speak in favor of this application? Anyone else other than this nice gentleman? Seeing no hands, anybody like to speak against it? Is there anything you'd like to add for the record? MR. STILLEY: No, Sir, I just thank God for what has been done and - 'Page 19 - Transcript ~f Hearings ~Vieeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again, it's a beautiful sign and we a, I'm happy that you know, that you built it and we've allowed you to build it and will just deal with the lighting aspeet in our deliberation and we'll go from there. MR. STILLEY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Hearing no further comment, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision. Motion carried. 'Page 20 - Transcript vf Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals 7:56 P.M. JOINT PUBLIC HEARINGS: Two applicaiJons filed by PATRICIA RUSHIN and PAMELA MOTTLEY regarding property located at 6850 Indiarr Neck Lane, Peconic, N.Y.; County Parcel t1000-86-7-5 of 149,054 sq. ft., which project is further described as follows: CI!A!RMAN GOEHRINGER: Appl. ~4522 - Special Except/on is requested to convert e~sting principal b~ f~m one fomHy to two f~ly use~ as provided under Ar~e III, Sec~on 100-3lB (1); ~d AppL ~4523 - Vari~ces under Article III, Section 100-32, Bulk, Ar~ ~d Paring ,Schedule, as to the e~s~g nonco~or~ties of the property size ~d b~l~g setbacks, for the proposed conversion of the e~st~g p~cipal single-fa~ly use to a two fa~ly dwelling use, ~ ad~'don to ~e pree~sting ~est cottage, w~ch cottage is ~cluded ~ February 6, 1986~ Certffi~te of Preexist~g Occupancy tZ-14212, Zone: R-80 ResidenO~, have a site plan from B~nn~ Desi~ Works, Inc. in,tang the proposed edition to the exis~ng two-sto~y frame dwel~g. The date on ~at is Au~st 19, 1997, ~d we have a copy of the ~fo~ County T~ Map ~dicat~g t~ and surround~g proper~es ~ the a~a. We ask you to s~te your ~me for the ~cord~ Sir. PATRICK BRENNAN: Patrick CHAIRM~ GOEHRINGER: How a~ you? What would you ~e to te~ us Sir? BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: You may w~t to mention that there's writte~ opposition on t~s for the ~ecord. CHA~Rr~N GOEHRINGER: OK, Oh~ I'~ sorry, there ia some opposi~on in' the record w~ch you my or may not be aware of. MR. BRENNAN: I'm aware of it. If I may I'd ~e to We you a Httle bit of back~omid, I was h~Ped by Pat Rus~n ~d Pamela Mottley. I'm arc~tect. They engaged me to ~desJ~ their home ~d to assist them in the appH~tion. MEMBER TORTORA: Could you sp~ ~ ~e ~crophone so that we get t~s on the ~cord ~lease? MR. BRENNAN: Yes, do you h~ me better now. Pat Rus~n and Motttey a~ sisters, ~d they recently ~erited the house from their mother, and two sisters a~d their F~es have been us~g the house s~ce 1941. It has been ~ the fa~y ~d they've been m~tain]ng it ~d enjoying it ~d using it in pretW much in the ~me way. The fa~es get together mostly from May to October to use the homes in summer. They we~ really ~te~sted in the North Fork ~d their home ~d their love for it and app~ached me ~th the id~ that they w~t to preserve the quality and the ~nte~ity of their site as much as both f~Hes ~o-~g they need to accommodate both f~Hes o~ the site since they both w~t to continue to use it, and they both have c~dren a~d one of the f~Hes has ~ndc~dren. P~'s approach was, ~Page 2] - Transcript ~' Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, ~997 Southold Town Board of Appeals thoughtful and sensitive approach, because they hired an architect I did prepare a new design summary for thom so I could explain to thom all the considerations that they had to take into account. If I may, I'd like to give you a copy of that. (Gave copy of Design Summary for the file. ) I did not include that with the application. CHAIRMAN: Sure. MR. BRENNAN: I'm sorry, I only have one copy with me. Some of their initial considerations were to come up with some way to accommodate both fam~es equalJy and ina reasonable way, a sensitive way and they didn't want to add any more buildings to the site. They didn't want to cut down on trees. They want to maintain the look and feel of the property as it is as much as possible. I researched it and tried to consider all the options. I went to the Building Department first to discuss it with Inspectors Gary Fish and John Boufis. I told them what my challenge was and asked their advice on how to approach this. I prepared the pre-design report explaining the situalion to the owners; and based on my findings in research, I recommended that they should try to accommodate both fan~Hes through a two-family home because that would have the least impact on the quality of the site and the neighborhood. That's most in keeping, I think, for the purpose of the low density residential already zoned and it would be most likely approved by the town through'the special exception. And in that sense it would come in at a reasonable cost for the owners without much hardship and it makes the use of the existing house which needed some attention. Some of the other options that we considered were putting one family in the cottage, which exists on site. It's a legal cottage but it's a nonco~xforming use; and I explained to them that it would be difficult to expand on the cottage and that the town would really tike to restrict any work on tho cottage to maintenance. That's really the town's view that through neglect or some accident, hopefully nonconforming uses will go away, and that the towel would not be too excited about going to develop the cotiage. I was also advised by the Building Inspector tbat it would be highly unlikely that the Board would consider a variance for the use of the cottage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's a seasonal dwelling isn't that, Pat? Thai has no heat in it, right? MR. BRENNAN: Yes. No, it does have heat in it. CHAIRIV~N GOEHRINGER: it does have heat in it? MR. BRENNAN: Yes. MEMBER TORTORA: It's still a seasonal dwelling? MR. BRENNAN: Yes. They use it as a summer home~ both. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What does it have, electric heat? 'Page tiff - Transcript ~f Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. BRENNAN: No, it bas oil. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It has oH. MR. BRENNAN: The other thing was that aside from the ( ) results an increase in size of the cottage woul~'t have a negative impact on the property and the site to have two larger dwellings in a proximity, I think, it woutd make it appear denser and be less desirable. The other option I considered with the owners was they have a subdivision, and somehow separating the lot into two lots maybe taking the cottage out of the same lot as the main dwelling, or building another building on the lot - on a separate lot. The owners were not excited about this because they thought that that was less in keeping with their ideas as well as the tov~a's ideas about open rural space and low density. So, that was not of interest to them and they firmly believe that that would most substantially have the impact of the site in a negative way. I am aware of the objections that came in. If you like, I would like to have the opportunity to address them. Should I do it now? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can do it now, or you can do it later. It doesn't matter I suppose. MR. BRENNAN: Are you familiar with the objections from the Varano family? Kathleen Varano? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. We've had applications before, before us from her late husband and her. MR. BRENNAN: Right. The Varanos make a couple objections in the letter. The first one, about ground water and cesspools, I believe this is really sort of a grounds argument because the new work, the new proposed work to the house would in fact be better in that it's mere stringent with the Health Department and the Towel Bttilding Code, or the New York State Building Code, protect the Varanos' interest in that they would be put in accordingly, and new toilets and fixtures, more water efficient. We would only add one new bathroom and one new kitchen to the dwet]Jng and water conservative devices would, be used as required. And as far as I k~now the Rushins a~d Mottleys don't have any history of water preblems. They do have a well. The second issue that the Varanos bring up is the rentals. The owners have made it very clear that they have no intention to rent either building. They only want to use it for their families and they also bronght to my attention that the Varanos rent out their home and that this past summer the Varanos didn't use their home but it was rented out to another fancily. As far as the general complaint as the density would be increased or decrease the quality of the neighborhood, I disagree because this approach does not involve adding any new buildings to the site~ and the small addition that would be necessary to accommodate both families is 'Page 23 - Transcript o£' Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals really only a 32% increase in livable floor area and represents only a half-percent increase in lot coverage and doesn't infringe any furiher on any setbacks. And as you cam see from the drawings that the proposed additions are kind of in the center of the lot, east to west. The Varoa~os' complaint - has to take argument with their complaint because their approved subdivision, I think, will have - ~-ili be more likely to impact the quality of the neighborhood and the environment because they have the potential of adding two more buildings to their lot. And the paragraph that the Varanos quoted in their letter of objection which is from Pat Rnshin's objec'don of 1994, Pat Rush/n sti~l firmly believes in that sentiment and she believes that in fact supports her position today because her approach again is to mlnLmize any impact to the neighberhood, per se. That's ail I have. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The exisiing garage that we see first, before~ that is a garage, not a cottage? MR. BRENNAN: Yes. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: It says on the map "framed cottage barn." So it's not a framed cottage barn? MR. BRENNAN: l~/el~, it's a two car garage. It has a carport on the north end and on the south end it has a - like a porch - and a storage room. It's a room with windows a~d doors, but it has no facilities. They don't using it for sleeping, just for storage. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: It's not really a cottage, then. No. MR. BRENNAN: It's not really a cottage. It's been showing up as a cottage on all the surveys. But, they never used it as a cottage. It was built by Pat a~ld Pun's father. CHAIRSYlAN GOEHR!NGER: Are you Willing to give up the seasonal use or any use of the Cottage in the construction or the reconstruction of this house? MR. BRENNAN: I don't think they would like to give that up. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK. Because we have a square footage problem in reference to what's allowed for two-fsmiiy houses and that's an area that we really can't vary - you k~ow what I'm saying? So I, you know - we certain].y can do a trade-off and that's the reason why I asked the question. Do we like to? No. Do we do them sometimes? Yes. I personal;~y thi~k that's the only way you're going to get two kitchens in that big heuse. I have no objection to you reconstructing that house and mak/ng that house bigger but we have dea!t with this issue since the beginl~ng of time to be hanest with you. We've gone from shared kitchen, to unshared kitchen to no kitchen at all for the purpose of · expanding families, uses and so on and so forth. But I can't foresee us pushing the issue of two families along with the guest cottage on a piece of properly of this size. We realize the property is long. We realize the property is large. OK? But it doesn't meet the criteria that we Page 24 - Transcript of Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals need for the Special Exception situation. If you were to tell us tonight, "well we'll eliminate the kitchen and just let me add the bedrooms and the upstairs, downstairs, onto the house" and whatever variance aspects that are before us, you know, we'll address those issues. But, I'm warning you that - (interrupted). What? MR. BRENNAN: Not creating a two family dwelling? MEMBER TORTORA: That's correct. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct. Yes but, I'm warning you, that we are really without authority to exceed that square footage of the lot. MR. BRENNAN: The square footage of the lot? CHAIRMAN GOEIIRINGER: Yes. You know, you need 160,000 sq. ft. for two family. t6. BRENNAN: The lot I believe, is within 7% of that requirement? CI!AIRldAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, but you also have an existing, it has to be a - MEMBER TORTORA: That's a legislatively-adopted requirement. We can't vary what is legislatively adopted, If it wasn't in the Code, if it wasn't part of the Special Exception to a two-family use, we could vary it but it very specifically says, this is what we must have. So, that's why Jerry has asked you-. MR. BRENNAN: I guess I'm confused, isn't that what an area, isn't an area variance is available somehow? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, this is a Special Exception, this isn't an area variance. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: But there's both. He's applying for both. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, well fine~ for both of course, yes. IVIEMBER DINIZIO: But to meet the Special Exception criteria, that is set down by the law itself. It's similar to the Bed & Breakfast Law, where you bare to have five things. You have to have this, well, if you were to have 750 sq. ft., we oan't vary that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me give you another example too. We also have an Accessory Apartment Law in the Town of Southold, OK, in existing dwellings. You can't have a Bed & Breakfast in an accessory apartment also. In this particular ease you're looking for a two-family and then you have an ex~sting oottage. That was the purpose, let me 'Page 25 - Transcript 8['Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals preface it from a symmetrical point of view of my first question to you - are you willing to trade-off the cottage for the purpose of t~his? In that case you said, "No." So. We're very simply just warring you. You're a very nice person and we're just warning you a~d telling you that we can't exceed that criteria in the Special Exception aspect. MR. BRENNAN: I g-aess I'm still confused. If my clients were willing to give up the use of the cottage or the kitchen? MEMBER TORTORA: Kitchen. CHAIRMAN: Either one, I don't care. MR. BRENNAN: But the cottage - BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Do you mean the kitchen in the Cottage? MR. BRENNAN: Giving up the use of the cottage doesn't give them more square footage in the lot. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: But it takes away the dwelling use of it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It takes away the dwelling use. We would rather have you just eliminate the kitchen from the main house. MR. BRENNAN: From the main house. CHAIRBiAIN GOEHRINGER: From the main house. The proposed kitchen to the second. MR. BRENNAN: When I'd considered that and explained that to my client early on, I thought that the to~ would look down on that because that would in fact not involve the intent of the Code because they would have two families essentially living in the same house. I guess I thought of that as- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But those two families are on the deed. So, those two families are uniquely. MEMBER TORTORA: It would never be a two-family house. CHAIRMAN GOEHRtNGER: It would never be a two-fam/ly house. MEMBER TORTORA: It's not going to be a two family house no rotter what you do tonight. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It can't. OK. 'Page 26 - Transerip{ of Hearings ,Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER TORTORA: Because you do no meet the basic requirements of the Code that the analogy Mr. DinJzio has given you is quite right. MI{. BRENNAN: For that area of the lot? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER TORTORA: The lot size area. MR. BRENNAN: But, you make a consideration if we were to give up the cottage? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's my suggestion, OK. That's not the Board's suggestion, OK. You know, we may have to seek guidance from counsel on that aspect. MEMBER TORTORA: There's nothing in the Code that says, that if two sisters want to live in one house and share the house they can't do that. What i think IvIr. Goehringer said, if they want to share the house together that's fine. But they're not going to have two kitchens in the house and they're not going to have two separate dwelling units. CHAiRI~L~N GOEHRINGER: We've actually done it with pocket doors. We had a house in Greenport, a brand new dwelling. You remember that one? MF&IBER TORTORA: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK. And they logisticaily drew a line right down the center of the house and used the shared kitchen with pocket doors. And, it wasn't that they didn't speak, it's just they enjoyed their own privacy. MR. BRENNAN: Yeah, I think this is a similar situation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, you know, I mean you have so many other options too, being- using it for primarily summer a~d good weather use~ yon know, that there are times when you're going to be cooking outside on a gas grill, or a regular open charcoal pit, and so on and so forth. And I'm not trying to sell that item to you, but I'm telling you that I don't have a particular problem with the additions but we cannot deal with the kitchen aspect. So, I mean I don't want you to give us an answer now. You are welcome, we can again- we can recess this and you can speak to your clients tohight, or we can recess until the next regularly scheduled meeting, and have you come back. Certainly the weather is still good. You can start the foundation construction in December and you know. ME~iBER TORTORA: Our next meeting is in two weeks, so, it may give you some ff~ne to think about other options. 'Page 27 - Transcript 0f Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MB.. BRENNAN: OK. Could I make an argument for why I believe that the cottage itself doesn't, it should not be considered in the equation? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You mean as reconstructed? MR. BRENNAN: No, as it is. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Or the elimination of the cottage? MR. BRENNAN: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK. MR. BRENNAN: I'll have these plans corrected, they shouldn't do anything with the cottage and that it would be unlikely that they would be allowed to anything to the cottage, except maintenance? MEMBER TORTORA: That a preexisting nonconforming use. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct. MR. BRENNAN: And that eventually it is the Town's understanding I believe that eventually those things will fall away? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct° MR. BRENNAN: So could it be considered that the cottage is of a tempoxmry nature in terms of having bearing on whether it is two or tin-ce dwellings on the lot? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cer'~O~ly if the cottage burned der, m, alright, you wouldn't get an instantaneous buJlc~ng permit to rebu3Jd. You probably would have to come before the Board. MEMBER TORTORA: What is the cottage used for now? ME. BF~ENNAN: it's used for one of the families. One of the sisters generally uses the cottage. One uses the house, but the cottage is small and damp. It's just doesn't - it's not well suited to it. MEMBER TORTORA: So currently, one of the sisters is using the cottage? ME. BRENNAN: Mostly, yes. MEMBER TORTORA: And one of the ether sisters is using the house? MR. BRENNAN: But they share the dipJng room and the porch of the house and - ~IEMBER TORTORA: So, if both sisters are living in the main house then~ what will become of the cottage? 'Page 28 - Transcript of Hearings ,Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. BRENNA_N: It'll be overflow for their children and grandchildren. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's uniquely what most of the cottages have been on these, I'll refer to it as a palatial piece of property because ii is a palatial piece of property; and we're very cognizant of those situations and the restrictions that are normally placed on those buildings if tlhey were not cottages, that they not be used for sleeping quarters. Do you understand? So, I mean this particular case, you have a C of 0 for a preexisting nonconforming eottage~ which is internally- the whole CO encompassed all the buildings on the property. MR. BRENNAN: Right. I thought that when I was introduced that this was a unique situation because they hadn't always used the cottage. And it was built as a cottage and it wasn't someone trying to pull something over on the Town, and i think that the ovmaers feel like they should not be penalized for l-roving maintained that cottage or maintain the property in general, and I think that they their feeling is that that should not be held against them. That they have fallen intp that category - nonconformity because - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think that is the case Mr. Brennan. 1 think the case is you get 3-1/2 acres and you need 4. I mean that's basic - MR. BRENNAN: Right. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Need 6 acres. It's two acres for each dwel[ing unit so it would be 6 acres he would be needing. MEMBER D~NIZ~O: Well, that's if you consider the cottage. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: If he keeps the cottage. Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, but ~ mean for the Special Exception you need 160,000 sq. ft. You have 3-1/2 acres. BOARD SECRETARY: Without the cottage, right. MR. BRENNAN: Right. CHAIR[VL&N GOEHRiNGER: So, you're a half acre short. MR. BRENNAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just on that aspect of it. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Without the cottage. CHAIR1VLAN GOEHRINGER: Without the cottage. MR. BRENNAN: I thought that that was a - 'Page 29 - Transcript df Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You thought you could vary that, is that what you're saying? MR. BRENNAN: Well that would be something that would be open to the variance aspect° But you're saying that Special Except/on does not, you're not allowed to take advantage. You can't use Special Excepfi, on and area variance? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To answer your questions, OK, we don't normally m/x apples and oranges. Do you want the Code, I d/dn't bring a copy of the Code. Do you have yours out, Jim? MEMBER DINIZIO: No. MR. BRENNAN: I have a copy. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You do. MEMBER TORTORA: No, that's OK, I'l/ go into the office. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK, is there anything else you'd like to say w~ile Mrs. Tortora is checking? MR. BRENNAN: Welt, I guess i'm just iuterested in more ciarification of this. I wi]l need to a obviously speak with my clients. The Board's suggestion is to - MEMBER TORTORA: I just wanted to look at the criteria for a special exception. CHAIRMAN: Sure. I was lool~ag for it before. I wanted to refresh my memory. CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: To answer your question. We normally don't mix apples and oranges. Do you want the code (to Member Tortera)? I didn't bring a copy. Do you have yours, Jim? MEMBER D[N[ZiO: No. MR. BRENNAN: I have a copy. MEMBER TORTORA: That's ok. I'll go to the office. CHAtR~&AN: Is there anything else you would like to say while Mrs. Tortora is checking? MR. BRENNAN: Well, I g~aess I was just interested in more clarification at best. ~ will need to obviously speak about th/s w/th my clients, so, the Board's suggestion is to -- CHAIRI~iAN: Eliminate the kitchen. 'Page 30 - Transcript Of Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. BRENNAN: We could go with a two family dwelling. The legal two family dwelling, which would have two complete housing facilities under one roof? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. That's ~ suggestion. My suggestion is to eliminate the cottage and do the trade-off for the - because the cottage has a kitchen, is that correct? MR. BRENNAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK, ii has complete-house type of situation? MR. BRENNAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN: - habitable dwelling standards. That's my suggestion. I'm telling you that's mine in particular. I'm saying that 1 would probably seek legal counsel in reference to that trade-off, alright. MR. BRENNAN: Yes. CH AIRiVIAN: Our, I think, total suggestion is: eliminate the kitchen of the new proposed addition, OK, and just b~iid it with a shared kitchen as you have it now. That doesn't mean you can't enhance the kitchen that you have. But quite honestly that's my suggestion- I mean that's the Board's suggestion. And, you know-, just the way you're p]ann~n.g to construct it and you know, I mcan, I don't think anybody is going to stop you from reconstructing a very beautiful stately house on 3-]/2 acres. Is that correct (to board members)? MEMBER DINIZIO: Well I just - my concern is that you'd like to end up with three dwelling units and basically I'd like to see and I know we've done it in the past is a trade-off in that direction considering that the lot ~'is" se large. In other words in your case, so that you don't quite meet the, you know, for ~o families as you're half acre under, you know, we can consider that similar to a subdivision, only not a subdivision, that you have two dwelling units on that 3-1/2 acres to me is not so, you know - I don't really have too much of a problem with that except that you're asking for three - a~d what do you do? Do you come back, I sound - like Bob, do you come back in a year and say, now you want to chop off, you know, two acres and subdivide and build a house back there? Now you've got it on two acres of land or an acre and a half, you got three dwellings and then you'll have another dwelling, and ~ think that's the concern here. ~IR. BRENNAN: W]lat would the concern be? MEMBER DINIZiO: Well, that would be my concern. That you would come back later on and say, "wail we have 3-1/2 acres, we'd like to subdivide that" and you know, on one piece of property say, you know an acre, and on 1.75 acres you have three dwellings and you want to subdivide and have another lot that you want to Build another house on. Legally. 'Page 31 - Transcript d~ liearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals So, in some way, there's got to be a little bit of g/ye and take in that respect; and I know in the area we've done some pretty liberal things, th~k, but certainly most of the applications we had in that area consider that the lots are so long and narrow and they were odd ball cottages that were there like this for years. I'd ~ike to see in some way come up with some kind of a compromise in that respect. Two kitchens to me in one house are not objectionable, it's just a question of the amount of people that you could having living on there. The neighborhood doesn't really support it in my opirJon. CliAiRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, as I said before, also that the variance procedures that are before us also, or tile fact that you don't meet the setbacks for a two family house, so, you know~ we are with that understanding. MR. BRENNAN: Yes. Wouid- there are other requirements for a two family dwelling, lkke a fire separation between tenancies. If at some aspects of the two-family dwelling were not carried out to in effect not creating a two family dwelling~ not having two kitchens as per your suggestion~ er not having separate e~r~ries, or not having a fire separation. MEMBER TORTORA: You're not having a two family dwelling. MR. BRENNAN: We're not having a two family dwelling? Not being Right. CHAIR~kN GOEHRINGER: What we're saying to you is we have two people on a Deed that want to use the house simultaneously er concurrently-, OK. MEMBER TORTORA: You see it doesn't matter ff they're sisters. It doesn't really matter. CliAIRMAN GOEHR~NGER: It doesn't really matter because it could be two frieuds that didn't want to go out and spe~td $~00,000 for a piece of property and just wanted to enjoy it together. We've seen this. MEMBER TORTORA: Two years from ~ow the two sisters could not be talking to each other and it could be two separate families. M~. BRENNAN: I understand. MEMBER D~NIZIO: Or one sister could rent it to somebody. MR. BREIS~NAN: Yes. It's unlike giving an apartment a permit for an apartment which is attached to it. Applicant ( ). I think that they just were trying to take the approach that was most in the spirit of the Zoning Code. Page 32 - Transcript Of Hearings · Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Well, we appreciate that~ but we're just saying to you- that we're not within the, we don't haVe the ability to vary that particular portion of the Special Exception, alright. So, whatever your choose to do, We're not pushing you tonight. We;re saying to you, go back to your clients and see which way you want to go. In the interim I wiU personally seek legal counsel on the issue as welt. If you choose to relinquish the use of the cottage, we'll discuss that issue. I will discuss that issue. All right? MR. BRENNAN: All right. OK. CRAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's just a preliminary thought, alright. certainly we would just rather see you build the building with the additions and use the kitchen together. MR. BRENNAN: Yes. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Can he apply for an accessory apartment? CHAIRMAN: No. It won't qualify because it is already constructed after 1984. BOARDSECRETARY KOWALSKI: The house was built before 1984, right? MR. BRENNAN: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes there is a possibility. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: You have a CO. You could qualify possibly for an accessory apartment. MR. BRENNAN: Yes. We have considered that. MEMBER DINIZIO: But certainly, then someone who owns the house would have to live there. That's, as opposed to a two family house - MR. BRENNAN: Right, one side has to be bigger - MF2~{BER DINIZ[O: Right, owner occupied, which is, you know, the town considers that a fairly valuable piece of legislation - then you don't have absentee landlords. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only thing about that is that you're really circumventh~g that portion of the law because now you're going to add a big addition onto the house, OK, for the sole purpose of either the main dwelling or the apartment, you know, and in this particular case it would have to be for the main dwelling. The apartment would have to e:cist in the exqsting portion, in the existing portion of the house and then the addition would be just very simply the - 'Page 33 -Transeript 0r Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, 1997 $outhold Town Board of Appeals MR. BRENNAN: Right, I understand. CHAIi~.MAN GOEHRINGER: It's really not, doesn't really fall within the overall objeclive, I should say~ of the accessor~r apartmeBt law. MR. BR~NAN: Yes, i unders~d. CHAIR~N GOEHRiNGER: And then we ~n ~to the problem ~th hav~g the nonco~or~ng cottage back on the p~perty a~n, ~d it goes back to the ~scussion I Bad ~ you about two Speci~ Excep~ons. One for an accessory apartment ~d o~e for a Bed & Bre~ast. And then we have to seek te~ counsel on ~at aspect MR. BRENNAN. Right. I understand. I just w~t to ~iterate that ~e o~ers ~ no way w~t to cr~te somet~g objectionable. CHAiR~N GOEHRINGER: Right, of course, ~d we appreciate that. MR. BRENNAN: And I eer~y did not adze some sought of creative interp~tation of the Zo~g Code in terms of trig to sp~t the ~tchen or $omet~ng ~ke that. Il was not - the ~tent ~s enOreiy to do it w~tl~ the me~s of the law. CHAIRb~N GOEHRINGER: The co~es of the law, right. So, you*re going to get back to us? You w~t us to ~cess that ~d we'll see you the next meeting and we'll try to put you on right ~ the be~ng and you ~n tell us w~Jch way you w~t to go. MR. BRENNAN: OK, t~ you. CHAIR~N GOEHRINGER: Tha~ you. Is the~ ~ybody else would ~ke to sp~k in favor that is at t~$ hear~g? Would anybody Hke to spe~ a~st? Seeing no hands IqI rake a mo!ion ~cess~g the hearing to the next re~larly scheduled mee'~g. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Could you ~ve a date ~th that, November ~3th? CHAIR~N GOEHRINGER: November 13th. Thank you, Sir. S~e home. Motion carried. 'Page 34 - Transcript of' Hearings · Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southoid Town Board of Appeals 8:28 P.M. - Continuation of the TONYES REALTY CORP. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK, Mr. Tonyes you're back on. We apologize for the delay and you're becoming a regular part of our Agenda here between the house down the block and so on and so forth. MR. TONYES: I will read Ed Danowski's letter: I am writing to you today- in regard to Southold Automotive Corp's application to the Zoning Board. I would like to show my support for their extension. It is my understanding that the new extension will be of the 1930's style building, and it will not change the value of the neighborhood. It is also my understanding that there will be 20 feet between the bu~ld~l~gs. Ten foot setbacks from the ones, if the new extension is built, the 10 feet setback plus his driveway which is a l~ttle more than 10 foot wide. 20 feet between the buildings and meets my approval, considering they keep their property very well ma/ntaiued if business is run in a neat and clean orderly fashion. As a business man myself, I feel that they are a highly respected business and have not had any problems between the past and do no foresee any in the future, The reason why I'm here, I guess I eau get a lawyer to say this to him and if I can't say it as clearly as I can, I'd like to ask the Board if I can bring a lawyer which I can't afford. The reason why I'm here is because if this Town Code right now is klnd of unfair for my business. If the, if this code holds, the way it is right now, that's why I'm asking for a variance, I will lose my business. I will go out of business. I will assure you that I w~ll be the next business going bankrupt in the Town of $outhold. I can't guaranty that, but I can see it because I've had problems paying my bills now. I need extra revenue, I don't need less. I don't know what I'll do if I have less business. I mean I can get on my hands and knees and beg but, I'm a business man, I'm a respectful business man in the Town. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the reason Ed wily we want you to do this in the manner of which is the most expeditious. MR. TONYES: That's it exactly. What I'm trying to say is I'm net a, by the letter that I read from the lady, you think i'm building a 300 story building. I'm not, I'm building a garage. The minimum I can bnild. I'm going to the even setbacks in the back which is 8 foot. It is preexisting setback for 8 foot. My side lot is 10 foot on the west, well right now it's 23, but if we're going to 13, it will be 10. The east setback is 39 feet, the north setback is 32 feet. I have, this, this is a good amount of property. In my case the Code is, if we continue like this and if we can't change the Code and I'm not saying to change the Code for everybody in town, but, it's, it's a, I mean if I come back again on the 13th that would be great because I, you know, this is just going to cause such a hardship. I can't express it anymaore than that. 'Page 35 - Transcript ~f Hearings ,' Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Towl~ Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, whY don't you do that. Why don't you come back. MR. TONYES: I mean I have to hire a Lawyer that [ can't afford. This is what we're asked to do. This will put me deeper in the hole. 1 want to continue doing business in Southold. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, do me a favor, when you consult the attorney, if the attorney feels that - whoever you consult that you want us to complete the hearing you know as Of tonight, we will then close the hearing on the 13th of November. We'll leave that as an option to you, OK. Just let us know, you know, but within at least a week or so because we have to readvertise and we would appreciate that, airight. Now remember that I'm telling you we're giving you every possible option here, OK. So, please use this time and we do appreciate the information that you've given us tonight, aJ.right and we ~ start to look at that as you t,ad presented it, but it's still our suggestion that the Zoning aspect is the greatest hurl that you have to get over and let's deal with that aspect first and then we'll deal with the placement of what we have to do with this addition. MR. TONS~ES: Is it true that, you could change the zoning on this? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can't the Town Board can change the zoning. MR. TONY}~S: I mean for me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The Town Board can change the zone. MR. TONYES: Only the Town Beard can change that? Well what about to allow me to do this. I)o you have, does the Board here have that - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Only through the use variance procedures as Mrs. Tortora had said. I had said in the beg]nning. Mrs. Tortora had ssjd and Mr. Diuizio had said, OK. MR. TONYES: Alright. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And, you know, the one thing as I say to you before we close, is that if your attorney feels that he does not want to or she does not want to present this ease, then you let us know and we'll close the hearing, you know, formerly without any further testimolly. You don't have to come back then on November 13th, OK. Thallk you. Hearing no further coulment, I'll make a motion recessing the hearing for the next regularly scheduled meeting. Motion carried. 'Page 36 - Transcript ~£ Hearings ~Meeting of October fi3, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals JOINT PUBLIC HEARING: HAY HARBOR CLUB, INC, - Variance and Special Exception Applications. The Chairman read the legal notice and application at the beginning of the hearing. CHAIRMAN G. GOEHRINGER: We have a map dated 6/24/97 - most recent date 7/7/97. And I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax map showing this and surrounding properties in the area. And as counsel knows, we have visited the site. How are you tonight? Would you like to state your name for the record? PATRICIA MOORE, ESQ: Patriela Moore. 315 Weslphalia Road, Mattituck. This evening I submitted for the record the Notice of Posting and the green return receipts you have in your file at this point. I also have the transactional disclosure form which I'll give you at the end o~ the hearing process. Before'I begin, I would like to introduce the people sitting hero this evening from the Hay Harbor Club. Christopher diBonaventura is the President of the Club. Sandy Esser who you met at the field inspection. Right here is the Vice President of the Club. CHAIRMAN: Minus the hat. MRS. MOORE: Minus the hat. MRS. ESSER: You have your hat though. CHAIRMAN: I have both hats. MRS. MOORE: IVIark Goumand, did I pronounce tlmt correctly? MR. GOUMAND: Close, "Go-mond." MRS. MOORE: He's the Treasurer of the Hay Harbor Club. Bob Anthony is the Secretary. Dick Duggan~ Club Manager. Tom Tammony is the Head of the golf committee as well as a board member. And Jean Thatcher who is also a board member. There she is, ok. They are all here this evening to show their interest, their support and to answer any questions you might have throughout the hearing. The first issue I would like to address with the Board is whether the Zoning Board has authorization with regard to a special use permit to vary from those (the) conditions. From the presubmission conference that we had, I told you that at that time I was researching the law. did find a case right on point, a3ad the case is Dennis v. gonin~ Board Vi/~age of Briarcllff Manor. This case I photocopied for you tonight and would like to submit to the Board deals precisely with the issue of what the Zoning Board can and can't do and whether or not area variances are in the purview of the Beard when there is a special 'Page 37 - Transeripf'~£ Hearings · Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Beard of Appeals exception ttmt Hsts certain conditions as part of that special use permit. The case is very clear. It discusses the Village line. I attached to this case the Village Law, the State law - because as you knew in 1995 the State Law was amended to clarify the intent of the drafters with regard to Zoning Board authority, area variances and the like. And the Village Law parallels directly the language of the Town Law. So I attached both, the Village Law which deals with this case and the Town Law, and you'll see that the language is identical and that the case should be applied to Town Law Interpretation as well. So I have that case for you this evening and it clearly says that as it should and common sense would tell you that when you~re considering a special exception, special use permit, that many times there are conditions that cannot be met because of the circumstances of that particular property, setbacks, area variances, are a common-sense requirement amd that's what this board sits and does on a regular basis. Finally, I found a case that says precisely that. And I cmn tell you I was jumping for joy when I found it. I'll submit that in the Board. So now that we have reached the threshold issue of whether or not we are dealing with a special exception and then area variances, I'll begin with the criteria of a special exception. A special exception is a presumptively valid use. It allows you to put the property to the use which the ordinance expressly permits. The use is contemplated by the ordinance subject to reasonable conditions to minimize the i~pact on the surrounding area. Thai is what you should be considering this evening. It's clear - the building has been built. It has been bnilt since 1890. SANDY ESSER, ARCHITECT: No. Since 1927. The golf course was 1890. MRS. MOORE: !927. I'm sorry. The golf course has been there since 1890. The building itself has been there since 1927. The setbacks have been established with the building that is there. What we are proposing to the Board and would like relief from is to reconstruct, to essentially build the new building in the precise location with some slight modification; and we will discuss that further on. So right now the condition of the 100 ft. setback does not exist and cannot exist. The 50 ft. side yard setback from the property line does not exist today and will not exist with the new building. So it's - those are the facts that we start with. The first consideration under a special exception is that the use will not prevent the orderly and reasonable use of adjacent properties or the properties in adjacent use districts and that the use will net prevent the orderly and reasomable use of permitted or legally established uses in the district wherein the proposed use is to be located. And I'li recite for you because there are so much here, just to make sense of this all, and when you go back to the transcript and consider this application, I'm going to go through based on what are the standards and then what the facts are se that hopefuHy it will make sense to you at the end. ~Page 38 - Transcript' ~f Hearings 'Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals We have the golf course and the club house which is located on the b~ildiug, and to start with some photographs - I know you have been on the site - but these photographs ave reaJly wonderful and we should incorporate them at this time. (Note from Board Secretary indicatir~g attorney will furnish PHOTOGRAPHS at a later time for the record for the reason photos were on a poster board and Architect S. Esser want to keep architect's rendition on reverse side till end. ) MRS. MOORE, continued: Sandy (Esser) did a beautiful job of showing the building that you saw and really highlighting some of the special features of this building. And I'm going to have Sandy - why don't you come up. You'll never see it unless I bring it up to you, if that's all right. Can I bring it up? CHAIRMAN: Sure. MS. ESSER: As you can see the building is right along the road currently. Right in front of the building we have a putting green that has been there for a considerable period of time. Up here we have a first tee which we have an archival photograph of. It's been there since 1890. We don't want to - we can't - that's immediately to the east of the bnildi~g which would preclude us from meeting the setback requirement. CHAIRMAN: How long is that hole? MR. : 415 yards. MS. ESSER: He's the golfer, the golf expert. The back of the building, this is currently the back of the bnildiug show~ug the property. The adjacent, property owner's house is this way up here. So, this is actually laud that right now - we are asking for, which isn't where we are now, but we are asking for an extension of the bnildix~ footprint by four feet to accommodate current code requirements for handicap accessibility and fire-related issues. This is the side yard of the building. Again, same issue. The~ is no ex~ansion asked for here, but as you can see we really can't move the building 100 feet because there is a berm here which precludes us from doing that. These are all pointing out conditions of the existing building. Those of you who toured the building ~qth me, there's about 6" of mud in the basement. The foundation is at risk. The upper floor meets iu no way the existing fire code. The stair risers are too high, the stairway is too ~arrow. There's no way to change it within the existing building. Right now, this is the fire escape from the second floor. It's a wooden ramp. Balanced oil a subroof that's there. AH of the wirLng is scary. That's about it. MRS. MOORE: Sandy mentioned the historic nature of this property, and the first tee - this is a photograph taken from 1890 and shows that it's a really interesting photograph. That is actually the first tee which is what you see, the building is down here, the clubhouse is down here, ~Page 39 - Transcript' ~f Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, ]997 Southold Town Board of Appeals when you go up the path way, the first tee is pretty much at the top of that h/Il. The building as you recall is tucked in, nice and cozy into that corner. And it is approximately 20, 40 - what is the distance, the height between the elevation of the building and the neighbor, 20 feet? 30 feet? MS. ESSER: The back of the building? It's hard to say because it's quite a steep slope. The overall height of the building is about 30 feet, 27'2" and the berm, the site plan variation is about -- CHAIRI~IAN: About 56 feet it shows here? MR. : About 20 feet. MS. ESSER: Twenty feet. Right. CHAIRMAN: By the way-, we would Hke to keep this (1890 photograph) until the end of the hearing (returned at end of tonight's hearing). MEMBER TORTORA: Are you going to ask for the legal case? CHAIRI~[AN: You are going to give us the legal cases too right? MRS. MOORE: I'm going to give it to you right now. SECRETARY: And the other photographs? CHAIR~rlAN: You are going to give us that too? MRS° MOORE: I'm going to give yon everythiug I'm just presenting. Yes. There's the case. SECRETARY: Thank you. MRS. MOORE: I'm going to show you this rendering for the purpose of this hearing but she would like this hack (architect's rendition behind the multiple photograph display on poster board). So you have in mind what the ultimate building - CHAIRMAN: Can you send us a picture of that (architect's rendition)? MS. ESSER: I can send you a picture of that. Yes. MRS. MOORE: Yes. So when i discuss the character of the area (took photograph display back for presentation). CHAIRMAN: Yes. MRS. MOORE: So, as Sandy pointed out the Clubhouse is tucked into the hill. Its closest - it's presently located on the road. It is very close to the putting green, or right adjacent to the putting green and 'Page 40 - Transeript'0~f Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, ]997 Southold Town Board of Appeals just a few feet above is the first tee. Tt~e property also consists of a nlne-hole golf course which faces the water. So you call see from the - I know you can see the building and the surrounding area, there really are only a few properties that are affected. The property is really surrounded by water aside from the road and the few houses up at the hill. The third issue that you have to deal with on the special exception is that the safety and health, we]fare and comfort, or the convenience, or the order of the town will not be adversely affected by the proposed use and its location. To start with, the building is falling down. You saw that when you were there at the site. And Sandy eau go into some more detail with ~espect to the condition of the existing building. It is a concern to the club. It's public safety issue. And it should be a health, welfare, comfort, and concern to the residents as well. With respect to, Sandy, I don't want to be the one to testify - Sandy, maybe I could - why don't you come up and explain your eredent/als. That way when I -- SANDY ESSER, ARCHITECT: I am Vice President in charge of the facilities at the Hay Harbor Club. I actually have a history of construction, currently I am head of construction for Cartier in New York and I am rebuilding two landmark buildings on Fifth Avenue. This is has no relationship to my credibility as a golfer. At this point - MRS. MOORE: Sandy, excuse me. You work very closely with the Architect? MS. ESSER: Yes, I did. We've directed the Architect to design for us a building that was very much in keeping with the residential quality of the neighborhood, and in fact, we looked at the building. One of the buildings - it's not photographed here, across the road, to get a lot of the details that are there in the building. To use as an example, which is a very typical Fishers is'land look as Serge (Member Doyen) can probably attest. Much more so actually than this building. We've also taken some of the existing features of the building and we are going to remove them for demolition and reinstall them. The ~ndows that are here in this drawing are actually windows that are on the builddng now. And this ~ndow is also replicated on our main clubheuse building, so these three windows were built at the same time. The existing building as I mentioned before is in very poor condition. The drainage is very bad. MRS. MOORE: What condl'don is the roof? MS. ESSER: The roof is lesking. MRS. MOORE: W~at is the structural integrity of the building? 'Page 41 - Transcript of Hearings ~Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MS. ESSER: The structural integrity is compromised because of the water in the basement, which is actually ~ust a ha]f-basement. And it's been run-off from the hill, that has accumulated over time. The drainage was i~adequate in the beginning and there's no drain really to 'rake that water away in the basement. At this point, it's really beyond the point of reexcavating the basement and putting in additional drainage. In the ladies locker room, for example, there's a whole in' the ceiling about this big - attributable to a leak that we cannot repair. It's someplace that we cannot find. We've worked on that leak for years. The windows are all - even though the dormers are all part of the structure - they all leak and it has not really been through negligence of the club. This is a building that is now 70 years .old and it ]~as been very much exposed to the weather. Over 70 years as buildings on Fishers Island. MRS. MOORE: Sandy, does it co~orm to any of the handicap accessibility requirements? MS. ESSER: None. No. MRS. MOORE: Does it meet any of the State Code, F~re Prevention Building Code? MS. ESSER: No. No. MRS. MOORE: Thsnk you. The next issue that the Board should address is that the use will be in harmony with and promote the general purposes a~d intent of this chapter. Well we have au existing golf club. The code is R-120. It does permit by special excep'don a golf club. It wilt be a new building which will be in compliance with all State, Federal, mid (County) codes so it will be a significant improvement on, well it depends at least in the Board's opinion that it will be a significant improvement to what is there today. Another issue that the Board should address is that the use will be compatible with the surroundings and with the character of the neighborhood and with other, and of the community in general, particularly with regard to viaibillty~ scale and overall appearance. Sandy touched on this point tlmat the building in size is about 3,000 sq. ft. at the first floor, and another 3,000 sq. ft. on the second floor. So the size of the buiIding is actually to scale and in many cases smaller tha~ many of the homes on Fishers Island. The design of the building was based on Mrs. Husband's house which is of similar ty~pe and, Mr. Doyen, you know the archi- tectural style of Fishers Island and this buildiug is in keeping and cer~iniy taking great care to make a very beautiful building. And if you had a chance to go up and see the main clubhouse, that, too, is of similar style. With the natural shape, the white trim and the gable roof - what is the description? MS. ESSER: Gambrel roof. It covers the roof - is a regular sloped roof, it's not the same. 'Page 42 - Transcript ~f Hearings ,Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MRS. MOORE: Oh. It's not this. MS. ESSER: There are a whole series of buildings that were built by the club which are called the Hay Harbor Cottages. Ail of those buildings have the same roof line as the building that we have designed here. MRS. MOORE: Another issue the Board must consider is that all proposed structures, equipment and materials shall be readily accessible for fire and police protection. While the building will finally meet State Code, Federal Codes, it is - hopefully no personal injury, attorneys are listening - it is a fire trap now. It is structurally precarious and this new building wilt be a significant structure. My position is that once the use is permitted by a Special Exception use, it should be considered until 100-242A which is the remodeling, reconstructed or enlargement of a nonconforming building with a conforming use. The building inspector cited us for a nonconforming building with a nonconforming use. Once, and one of the reasons were that this building does not have a special exception use to it so that it is presently considered not a permitted use. Once you've given the special exception approval, it does not create - we don't create any new nonconformity or increase the degree of nonconformity with regard to the regulations. The building is presently 56 by 52. There is an 8 by l0 bite taken out of the building. You can see that from the plans. I have for you this evening, Sandy prepared a site plan - I guess I could describe it as a site plan. It's not the kind of a site plan that - it's more of a survey. That shows the existing clubhouse. And then the proposed structure. You will notice there is only- a four-ft, distance lowards the - would it be !he westerly side of this north up here? OK, the northerly side of - that is in order to meet the State and the State Code. There were some questions the Board had that you sent me a request to show the parking. There is an area that is parking right l~ow. It's certainly not a fixed up iu any way. There will be an area for parking that is shown and ii,is is on the survey. I'll give that to the Board. We're continuing the use of this building as a two story building. There are two existi~mg parking spaces. There will be an additional handicap space that will be paved for handicapped accessibility. That area will be leveled and cleared, paved and used for the handicapped parking. There is also parking across the street. That parking area has been used for the past 20 years and it accommodates 15 to 20 cars. In the photograph you can see - I'1[ point it out to you because I know the day we were out there it was kind of busy. Right here is the photograph that shows you here's the club, here is the area that has been used as parking. It is actually - we believe it's land owned by Mrs. Husband but that area again has been openly, notoriously used by the club for the past 20 years. Adverse possession only requires 10 years, but there's been a very cooperative working relationship with that family. So, when you're looking at the photographs I'll just peint out that stuff. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's a diagonal parking across the street? 'Page 43 - Transcripf ~f Hearings ,Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of AppeaIs MS. MOORE: Yes. There is also a great deal of parking at the main building and there has been routinely the shuttl/ng of staff and herself from the main clubhouse to this facility. So, there is also off site parking with regard to the main clubhouse. With regard to the rooms that ture upstairs. You knew I was going to get to that eventually. There, I did some research and I called around to the different clubs, golf clubs, unrelated, it had no relationship to Fishers Island and I inquired. I said, well what is customary accessory to a golf club? And, a very nice gentleman, a Joseph Pfaff who is - he preferred not for me not to state which chib he works for because obviously- he had not gotten permission from the club management or the Board of Directors of that particular club to speak on behalf of Hay Harbor. But, he was willing to provide an affidavit with respect to his experiences as a club manager and he states this is an affidavit prepared by certainty prepared by me based on the conversion I had with him. He signed it and notarized it. it's signed September 23rd. He says that ha is a club manager, at a private golf club on the North Fork. He is a member of Club Manager Associatio~ of America, CMAA, which represents 4.500 Club Managers world wide. He submits this affidavit at the request of Hay Harbor and as a professional with experiences in cJub golf club operations. He also understands that this affidavit is going to be used by the Zoning Board and relies on his statement. He says that the staff housing is part of a golf club facility, is customary and accessory to the use of a private golf club, such as Hay Harbor. That the larger type of clubs imve customarily provided housing to these senior staff and circumstances such as high housing costs, low ( ) with limited rental availability, time commitment on staff and seasonal nature of the position necessitates the on site housing of the staff. Now~ he wasn't speaking specifically about Hay Harbor but when he deait with those issues, he said, it just made sense. You have here high housing cost and I will have in a moment soma testimony vxith regard to the cost of housing the senior staff for this club. The localities limited lmntai availability - well you ali knew how lovely Fishers Island is and certainly is an exclusive area, and rental is at a premium. The time commitment on staff and we have a staff manager, the Hay Harbor Club and he can attest to the time commitments involved ~th running a club and the seasonal nature of the position which you're not going to have on an average staff position - someone that lives on Fishers Island. You're going to import from off the island someone to work and it is a professional occupation as a golf pro, as a tennis pro~ a chef. These are positions that are very prized that there is a demand for it, nation wide, and you have to track your staff and encourage them to come and work for you. So, he was very, he explained the operations of a club beautifully and I was able to put it all in writing for him to sign. He says that accessory housing of the staff is common in the industry and offered as an inducement to attract senior level staff. Housing is advertised routinely with job postings nation wide and is incorporated into compensation packages. On the Island, such as Fishers Island, or Shelter Island, he used Shelter Island as an example, commuting to the club is either impractical or unavailable due to particular transportation limitations. Housing of the staff is beneficial to proper club management. Se I have that affidavit from 'Page 44 - Transeripf df Hearings .Meeting of October 23, ]997 Southold Town Beard of Appeals Joseph Pfaff and again, he has no relationship to the Hay Harbor Club, but educated me on the running of a club and the need for housing. We can get into if you like to at this time, do you understand the plans you have before you? Would you like a little tour of what is involved? CHAIRbLiN GOEHRINGER: We'll take a tour. A quick tour. MS. MOORE: You'll take a tour, OK. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I should point out to you, that at 10:00 o'clock we have festivities tonight, OK. MS. MOORE: Oh, we're going to celebrate. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is Mr. Doyen's last meeting. MS. MOORE: Well I'll talk fast. You do this to me every time I have an important hearing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That doesn't mean that you cannot come back, you know that Mrs. Moore. MS. MOORE: Alright, I'll try to wrap it up as best as I can, OK. Well then let me go through and then will do it at the end, a little tour. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK. MS. MOORE: You have two full apartments with two bedrooms, one will be for a golf pro and the tennis pre and their families. You also have four bedrooms which are dormitory style, there is no cooking, please disregard any rumors you've heard, any- things that you've been told. There is no cooking on the facility for the dormitory style rooms. It is o~nJy for senior staff. The meals are provided at the main clubhouse, the staff people have to be at the clubhouse by 8:00 o'clock in the morning, there is no parking after hours, there's no partying after hours. It is a very ridged working environment. They have their privacy and that's all they have. The employees are seasonal. It is May 30th thru September 1st. I'd like to get into the financial nature of the accessory use because it is crucial to this club to have the apartments and the dormitories. I'll have some financial information now for you. You ready? M~BER DOYEN: Ready when you are. MS. MOORE: OK, go ahead. MR. GAUMOND: Don't you want to lead me through this? MS. MOORE: Alright, well, a!right. You know more than I do. MR. GOLDMAN: I'm [Vlark Gaumend, I'm the Treasurer of the club. 'Page 45 - Transcript ~f Hearings ,Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MS. MOORE: Can you describe how much it costs for you to house your senior staff off premises. MR. GAUMOND: Our present situation is this. We have three employees and in some cases with their families and some ease not, whom we house off campus. This past year we paid some $25,000 to house those three people off campus. Our view is, that with this new construction project we'll be able to eliminate that cost altogether. Moreover we will be able to continue to provide houses for the people who live at the clubhouse presently. If we cannot do that, we think the estimates would run to $50,000 per year in annual, in rental costs, and that presumes no escalation fox' Fishers Island's rents and it presumes the availability of off campus housing for our staff. MS. MOORE: OK, thank you. Dick Duvan maybe you can present to the Beard, what is the, what are the limitations on your staff when they're living in those dorms. MR. DUVAN: In terms of time? MS. MOORE: Yes. MI{. DUVAN: The golf pre and his wife, their day starts at about 5:30 A.M. They're up, his on the ( ) tee by 7:00 A.M., he's l~ot a late man. You don't get, you can't find him up beyond 9-9:30 at night. The Assistant Manager, his first responsibility is to cheek tho pool at 5:30 A.M. and then he's back for a tour of the golf course belween 6 and 7, checking out any problems, vandalism, anything that might be out of line. He has living with him, two children~ one college age, one high school age. They work for us at the club. He also house with him, one of my college ago employees because they didn't have room in the dorm for her. He's up early, both aduRs responsible to keep an eye on what is going on at the golf house~ Tennis Pro, his lessons start at 8:00 A.M. He's over for breakfast between 7-7:30 in the morning. The Executive Chef, he works late, but, he has a heavy responsibility as some mornings he's meeting the first boat when the truck comes over from 'Hartford and he's unloading the truck and doing inventory at 5:30-6 in the morning. Then we have an Assistant Golf Pro who puts in a long day and he's in bed early. So~ these people work in many cases 7 days a week and they put in long hours. MS. MOORE: Is there any- intan'den of renting any of these rooms? MI{. DUVAN: No, these facilities have never been rented out. I don't intend to put in any kind of a partying crowd or people that want to cause trouble. I won't put up with on my staff, people that cause any problems and I haven't had any complaints from members for the last three summers since I've been here, problems with our staff. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. 'Page 46 - Transepipt'd£ Hearings ,Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MS. MOORE: Mr. dj Bonavontura, maybe you can give some information with regard to the membership, o:nd how many members you have, and what is the limitation on membership right now? MR. dj BONAVENTURA: OK, currently we have a policy of having 440 members, family members of the ciub. We're currently at a membership total 410. The reason why we are capped at that level cur~entiy, is because of the demographics of the membership. It is the facilities of the club that control in the capacity of those facilities that control the number of members that we actually can have. In recent years we have been as is often the case, having as resignations older members of the club who have not used the facilities with nearly intensity as some of the younger members and we have been replacing those with younger families. The impact of that is that the pool and the swimming areas, the sailing p~q)grams and the tennis courts have been maxed in terms of capacity. Those are the facilities that are controlling the level of our membership. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not necessarily the golf course? MR. dj BONAVENTURA: Not 'the golf course. We are interested in and continually tr~fing to find additional capacity because we would like to have more members of the club. But, as we a, just to keep the current membership, we need to on occasion increase the number of staff because we are hav4ng more and more children every year use the facilities of the club and use the programs that we provide. So, currently the membership is 410. We would like to, like to be our capacity at our policy of 440, but we have not realty be able to do that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is the yearly cost per member, or per felly? MR. dj B©NAVENTURA: The annual dues Mark arb ? MR. GALq~IOND: 20 a Unknown male answered: I think it's 250. MR. GAUMOND: No, I think it's more, Tom. Full family membership is $2~ 200 approximately. CHAIRMAN GOEHRtNGER: OK, and the cost of the i~construction of this building will be borne by all 410 members? MR. dj Bonaventure: Yes. CHAIRI~kiN GOEHRINGER: They will all be signing the mortgage and bond, if there is a mortgage or they're will be? MR. dj BONAVENTURA: There won't be a mortgage. We've estimated the cost of about $1,000,000. $9007000 is construction, $100,000 'Page 47 - Transcripi~ of Hearings ,Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals landscaping and other ancillary costs. To finance it, we have assessed the membershipS2,400 per member. They trove variance installment options available to them to pay and at this ]point the first installment has been called for and it has been paid by 100% of the membership which we think is a very clear sign of their support, Some 10% of the membership have paid the installment in its entirety this past summer which we think is a further sign of support. The first installment was 50% with an option to pay it in over four installments if some chose. A small percentage of the membership elected that option. The vast majority took the 50% approach. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MS. MOORE: Wihh regard to the support of the membership clearly there is a majority of this for new membership and I have a letter for the record, detailing the Board's Authorization to do this that you have received ( ) correspondence, accusations that the Board should have gone to- like a referendum vote of their membership. That is not necessarily, that was not part of their By-Laws and that their following their procedures, their By-Laws. I want to put on the record - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to ask how they were elected? MS. MOORE: How were you elected? MR. di BONAVENTURA: There is an independent nominating committee comprised of three members of the membership. Two out of those three are past presidents of the Board. The Nominating Cor~mittee put forth the nominations for-the six people each year. We have a three year 18 member board for rolling, rolling membership. The Nominating Committee put that forth at the general meeting of the membership, the annual meeting of the membership at the end of August, the begin_~uing of September, the Labor Day Weekend, and the membership present at that annual meeting votes on the board, on the Nominating Committee's nominations for board. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGIgR: Now, there are 18 members? MR. di BONAVENTURA: Yes, 18 Board Members~ 6 came up every year. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask, are all 18 in unanimity on this construction, reconstruction? MR. di BONAVENTURA: Yes, unanimous support of the ( ). MS. MOORE: While I, while you're standing there, 1 do want to address the adjacent property owners and whether or not that we have support or they're opposed to it. There was one pariicular letter I want to address. I think you and I spoke about it. Why don't you list the adjacent property owners that are most affected and please state their position. 'Page 48 - Transcript uf Hearilxgs Meeting of October 23, J997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. di Bonaventura: OK. We have two immediate neighbors, one is the Hobson family whose house is above the first tee and above the clubhouse and the other is the Husband family which is across the street and up the hill across the street. The Hobsons are in, maybe I should talk about our process first. We went a, Bob Anthony and I and a couple of our other board members went and visited as many of our neighbors as we could early on in the summer. In July to go through the plans, this was our initiative to do this, to go through the plans and try to ( ) any problems they may have. We did that with the two immediately adjacent families. The Hobson family, we don't have a letter from them tonight, hut, they have ex"pressed thei~ willingness to give one at anytime~ is fully in support of the project, had no problems with a~ay of the details of the plan, we went through it in great detail over about an hour aJad a half worth of time. In addition, the Husband family, Mrs. Husband and her two Sons who live with her during the summer, we spent probably a good hour and a half to two hours worth going through every aspect of the plan. Now, that's in front of you and received a great deal of support for the project at that meeting. Many favorable comments about many of the features abaut the architecture and about many of the assurances that we made in terms of parking and staffing, that would be living in that building. We did not ask for letters from those neighbors at the time and we were pretty confident that we had done our due idJligence with them and gotten their full support to proceed and I think they all knew when we were talking with them~ had they voiced some concern or had they indicated some concern that we would have responded to that in the appropriate way. We subsequently learned that Mrs. Husband has submitted a letter Ilmt opposes the project~ I must say, that that's quite a shock given the tone of our meeting with her and her sons. We, over the past two weeks have tried to reach the one so, we knew how to reach and finally did this morning and he was out on a trip in Europe and just returned yesterday evening and he is completely unaware of the letter that his mother has submitted. He is going to try and find out for us what exactly transpired that would of caused her to change her mind so completely about the project. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a key issue, OK. The reason why it's a key issue is because she holds the parking, OK, for this club and it's extremely important that tl~As Board know which way they go concerning that. MS. MOORE: If you recall the letter it doesn't addressed the parking at ~l. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It doesn't address the parking hut, if she is of that particular feeling, you know - MS. MOORE: No, no, you're absolutely right and that was an issue that we war, ted to address. My suspicions and they don't have to say, my suspicions are that she is elderly, she was approach, coerced, to sigm something she honestly didn't understand what she was signing. They had the respect to meet with her with her two sons, she is elderly and · Page 49 - Transcript of Hearings Meeting of October 93, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals her two sons who are the apparent heirs are the ones who were obviously going to be impact at the most for this building for the new building for years to come. MEMBER TORTORA: Do the sous have Power of Attoruey? MR. di BONAVENTURA: I dou't know. MS. MOORE: We dklu't address that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The other issue which cannot be cleared up tonight though, is, is this route, you know, if she does try in cording off the parking. MS. MOORE: I, they wouldu't, she wouldu't be able to do that, at least CHAIRIVIAN GOEHRINGER: You'd have to go to court with a ( ) claim action, right? MS. MOORE: Oh, absolutely. I mean they have an adverse possession ~ke that. There bas always beeu cooperation, she is a lovely lady, they spent hours with her, her two sous and when I read the roue of the letter and the language used there, it was clear that someone else had written that letter and fortuuately we were able to reach the sou and he's gouer to try and find out what happened, but, we suspect that that letter does not actually reflect her opinion. MR. di BONAVENTURA: We'll find that out. He has asked me tomorrow to fax that letter so that he can review it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: Is there anything else you'd like to say. MR. di BONAVENTURA: No. t thought I heard Mr. Doyeu ask whether the sous were members of the club and the answer is that they are uot. CHAIRRLiN GOEHRINGER: Only the mother is a member. MR. eli BONAVENTURA: No, the mother is uot a member of the club. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, she's no louger a member? MR. di BONAVENTURA: She was a member. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: She was a member and she no longer is a member? MR. di BONAVENTURA: That's right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK. 'Page 50 - Transcript~of Hearings Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER DOYEN: Well, just a minute. Incidentally, tell me, how did she cease to become a member? MR. di BONAVENTURA: ! think she chose to resign. (Unidentified voice) She resigned a number of years ago cause she's not a golfer and doesn't use the facility and she wanted to make way for younger members. MEMBER DOYEN: Well, the rule in there such as it is, on Fishers Island, didn't come out that way, she was asked to resign and she resented it. Is thai correct? MR. di BONAVENTURA: I highly doubt that, Mr. Doyen. MEMBER DOYEN: Alright, that's what I'm just saying, those are some of the rumors that were going around. MS. MOORE: Yes, I want you to ask, that's why they're here because I know that the small island does create a lot of very interesting rumors. Some of which i've gotten, some of which I don't know about. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to point out to you, that Mr. Doyen will not be voting on this application, OK. MR. di BONAVENTURA: But he asked and it's important that we respond to those questions he had. MR. DOYEN: Is it correct, that there was a petition of some 200 of your members that were not in favor of this proposal? MR. di BONAVENTURA: No, it is correct, that there was a petition circulated, that actually was circulated for up to a month or more. The number of people whose names appear on that petition, numbered approximately 100 to 125. I forget the exact number. Many of those people on that petition, we have spoken to since the petition was sent to me~ and we have heard some pretty amazing things. That they were cornered in church, that they were given no information, that they were asked to sign this petition based on an understanding that we were going to be putting up a hotel on the property. That there were all kinds of representations made about what we were doing except for the information which we have provided that group of people who put the petition forward the week before the petition began. We sat down with that group, at their request, and ran through the project, answered every singie one of their questions, they took minutes of that meeting, a all of the information that we gave, say a little bit were in those minutes (end of tape). That none of the people who signed that petition had the benefit of that information other than the people who had been at that meeting which numbered about 10 or 12. 'Page 51 - Transcript ~£ Hearings Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeais CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: These people that signed the petition, were all members of the club? MR. di B©NAVENTURA: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In some way, m~nner, fashion or family or regular or whatever? MR. di BONAVENTURA: Yes, but many of those signatures were, many of those people were signed for by other members of the family, and a couple of those people on the petition did not know that their names had appeared on the petition and there were a very large number of people who subsequent to that after we had spoken with them, said OK, now I understand, and after I had written this very lengthy letter, explaiuing again, what our goals were and what our thought process was in coming up with the project. Many people said, OK~ now I understand what you're trying to do, take my name off the petition. MEMBER TORTORA: That puts us i~a very awkward position because those people aren't here tonight to say that that's just your word that they said that. I mean, put yourself in our position. MS. MOORE: If you would, put him on the record, swear him in. He and the others will swear to the truth of what they're saying. My concern is, petitions can be signed by anyone. Those are not sworn statements and which you have is, rumor, innuendo, and some neighborhood, no neighborhood, some internal strife within the club that is giving much greater weight than is due in this particular case. So, - MEMBER TORTORA: But it puts us in an awkward position when he says, he's talked to those people and those people want the names taken off. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well let me ask you. Then, the next question is, how many hard core people are still against the, that were on that petition? I need the estimate. MR. di BONAVENTURA: it's hard to tell. it's very hard to tell unless we ge back and canvas each one of those people that we know that have not told us that they no longer are against the project. MEMBER DOYEN: I have another question Jerry. You don't have to answer this question, but, would you eventually guess why so of these people might be oppose to the proposal. MR. di BONAVENTURA: Mr. Doyen, I've been asking that question of everybody I can for the last two months. MEMBER DOYEN: Obviously the building is falling dewn. So, ! was just curious why there are some of your members oppose to it, because some Page 52 - Transeript'~f Hearings Meeting of Oelober 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals of them are. I got phone calls, they informed me that lhey were opposed to it. MR. di BONAVENTURA: If you look at the petition itself and look at the points in the petition, - BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: But, we don't have a Petition in the record. We have the letter but- MS. MOORE: You don't have it? You were, you never sent it? Unidentified person: They were sent by Nancy Hunt. Nancy Hunt sent that petition. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Mrs. Hunt sent a cover letter, but there were no signatures attached to it. There's no signatures or anything with it. MS. MOORE: We~il give it to you tonight° If we have a copy, if not, I'll give it to you later. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: OK, thar~ks. MR. di BONAVENTURA: You will see that the petition itself does not oppose the project. The petition opposes or addresses 6 or 7 details of the project. It does not oppose the project. CHA[Ri~LiN GOEHRINGER: You don't have to give it to us tonight. You don't have to rush Sandy or Pat. You know, this can be submitted. We're going to carry this over until October, until November. MS. MOORE: The point that I was getting right at this moment was thai the petition when you read, read and review the points that are being made are operational there and to certain extent, some prefer the building this way, some prefer the building this way, some wouid want it tiled, some wanted it a, they didn't like the fireplace and the fireplace was donated by a very generous benefactor. It was not going to cost muybody anything. So, it was issues that mature that were coming in to the petition. Not, we absolutely don't want to rebuild this building. They just had certain points - oh, thank you. In the interest of time, I'H just very quickly, I'll give this to the Board. This was the petition. OK, they're losing busy in a central section of the porch. It will be a common room. Who will be responsible person to supervise the end season, off season use of the common room? The golf pro who spends 5 months should have a better housing, he shonldn't have the back, the front of the building so he can supervise rather than the back of the building. Staff housing should be first and second floor in the back of the building, not second for a common area. Golfers that present carry their bags onto the porch, should place them on a cart and goes on from there requesting the need for two men's room, one is being handicap room we're concerned the cost of this project and its further · Page 53 - Transcript'of Hearings ~ Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals maintenauce. We request that before the Capital Expenditure is undertaken these issues will be addressed and the membership will be kept informed of your progl~ess. That's the petition. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sounds like membership issues. MS. MOORE: Exactly, exactly. MEMBER DOYEN: Answer my question. MR. cfi BONAVENTURA: I'll try. MEMBER DOYEN: One of your members was opposed to it. Just simply said it was too extensive. You don't need a club. MR. eli BONAVENTURA: All 1 can respond to that and I've wrote a much too lengthy letter in August. Everybody appreciated the information but, wish that I had been much less opposed. All I can say is that we went through a two year sought of long term planning effort. We had a Planrdug Committee formed to look at the project to solve two problems that we had. One was a facilities problem, one was a staff housing prOblem. Both of those well within the purview of the Board's responsibilities a~d once a week we took very, very, seriously. We look at it from many prospectives, and one of those prospectives was, the need, the needs of the membership, and the cost to the membership. We firmly coneluded that this is the least cost solution, for the membership, that it provides a, that it answers the two problems that we have on the facilities standpoint and from a staff housing standPoint. It creates, we thi~k it makes an addiiien to the commu~dty, because of the style of the design and the quality of the design. So, Mr. Doyen to answer you prior question. I asked all summer what is the real reason that you oppose the project Because the petition points really don't make se~lse to me as the basis for opposing a project. MEn, hER DOYEN: Well I had several others that were passed aiol~g to me a~d one of them thought they didn't care too much for the assessment. MR. di BONAVENTURA: I think that there are probably are some of our members who oppose that. MEMBER DOYEN: Ai~other one was oppose to it because they thought that the people in residence would be too noisy for their neighborhood. MR. di BONAVENTURA: Yes, a~d that's a, that's why we very clearly made the point that this would be for senior staff housing only. That if we do not have senior staff to fill up those roads, there will be nobody in thoSe roads.People who have worked with Dick aud have seen how Dick manages the club know that he doesn't put up with bad behavior anywhere~ for any reason, and that's a policy' that this Board supports and will put forward, and carry forward. · Pa~e ~ - Transcript ~ Hearings _, ,~ ~IVleeting of October 23, 1997 ~ Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER DOYEN: Because that argument is always rather thin because you don't know what's going to happen next year or ten years from now. MR. di BONAVENTURA: T~ue, but a, We can do what we can to continue to carry that - MEMBER DOYEN: I appreciate that, but I'm just saying - MR. di BONAVENTURA: No, that's, that's true, t/mt is true, Mr. Doyen. MS. MOORE: There are certain conditions you can impose on the Special Exception and certainly the condition of seasonal occ,apancy, no rental, for staff housing only associated with the golf and the tennis club. You may not be aware or you may, I'm sorry, is that there is the main clubhouse and then the golf club house. Both incorporate the Hay Harbor Club, Inc. and so just so you understand that that the two separate bnildings are all part of the same club. So, when someone is a member they have the benefit of both facilities. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We had not seen the main facility or the other fae/ldty only because of the time factor when we were over. Not that it really makes a big difference except for the eenstruction or reconstruction of these rooms that you're referring to. OK, where do we go from here? MS. MOORE: Well I do have with respect to an area variance there are some a - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't we do this? Why don't we go through some questiens and then you can deal with since we have the Beard Members here, the Board of Directors here and then you can continue that on November 13th. MS. MOORE: Yes, thank you, that's fine and we can tmswer any other questions that they don't have to be here and they could just relay that information° Is that alright with you? MFa~BER DINIZIO: Yes, it's fine with me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, fine. Mr. Dinizis? MEIviBER DiNIZIO: How many members do you have at your annual meeting? How many members voted? MR. dj BONAVENTURA: Oh, probably, easy 100 people ! would say. MF~MBER DINIZIO: About 25%? MR. di BONAVENTURA: Yes. We have a again a seasonal membership, probably depending on the year, you know, 50% w/ll come in July, or may be 30% come in July, 30% in August and the remainder stay all summer. 'Page 55 - Trauscrip~-0f Hearings Meeting of October 23, 1997 Sou/hold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER DINIZ!O: But 25% is apparent. Is that families, 4107 So, you could have 1,000 members, I mean 1,000 people utilizing that facility. MR. di BONAVENTURA: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah~ that's true. MEMBER D1NIZIO: OK, so it is 25% members. I mean 100 families were represented ? MR. di BONAVENTURA: That's what it appeared to us. We did not take attendance there, that's what it appeared. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You'd certainly know that if someone wasn't a member and they were there attempting to vote, that they were not a member. MR. di BONAVENTURA: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My question is to Mrs. Esser and we did have a great tour of the building and a I just have this feeling toward old structures and my question to her is the same question as a metrical matter that I expressed to her in August and that was why destroy the building? I am also going to do a double thing and that is really to charge her with over the next couple of weeks with a figure that would involve the reconstruction of the existing building in a similar area of what you want to do here without elongating the foundation and so on and so forth. Give us a figure Sandy ff you would in reference to what your opinion would be in reference to the reconstruction of the existing building and that means physically picking it up, putting a new foundation underneath it, dropping it back down, ripping off everything down to ihe first story or to the second story I should say, and reconstructing it from that particular point up. The reason why I'm asking you that question, is because we are still having, i'm stLli having a very difficult time on a zero lot line. It's, it's just, it's to the point where I don't know what to tell you, you know. We are not zero lot line people. When new construction comes in, new construction is new construction and we're not saying that it has to deal with the exact figure of what the Code calls for. But, zero let line is very difficult in this particular area because of the lack of parking that you have, you literally have no outside parking~ and the on site parking that you do have, is the nature of an adverse possession claim across the street, OK. Secondly, you walk off that sidewalk and you walk right into that road and we did see that at a very, very busy time. MS. ESSER: Can I address that for one second? That was the worse day. That is the one time of the year that you're going to have all those people at one time. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. I mean it is a dead end street sought of speak. I mean, but at the same time it was a busy day, OK. MS. ESSER: The busiest day of all year. · Page 56 - Transcrip~ of Hearings Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, maybe that was the best for us to see and I don't mean that from a derogatory standpoint or anything, I mean we're open people. We don't ask these questions because we're not interested. We ask the questions because we are concerned and for the next month we're going to be a three member board until the Town Board appoints. Mrs. Totters? MEMBER TORTORA: OK, let's see back to, I'm all the way back to Dennison, Dennison? MS. MOORE: Oh, the Dennison case, I'm sorry. MEMBER TORTORA: Essentially we can get passed that issue everything else is moot. So, we haven't had a chance to even look at that case and I think that's a very important issue, because you said that you had ( ) case, you had ( ), that you can vary the legislative ( ) adoptive criteria - MS. MOORE: Keep in mKud, that the town is with, directs the authority of the Zoning Board and the Town Law- specifically addresses Special Exception uses and the criteria that a variance can be granted under with a Special Exception use. It goes as basic as looking at the lack of Town Law, that is where you derive your original power and it was from there that I started. So, I think it's a veiny important case. Really, it does set the tone for the whole tow~. MEMBER TORTORA: No, I think, I agree, and that's why I think it is important to you know~ get our feet on the ground amd just take a quick look at that° Presuming, that that is so - MS. MOORE: And it is. M]~IBER TORTORA: Then you are suggesting that the application of an expansion of nonconforming use does not apply because once the Special Exception in place, is in place, then 242 ( ). MS. MOORE: Right, right. MEMBER TORTORA: I just want to generalize it. MS. MOORE: That's right, you got it right on - MEMBER TORTORA: A parking, yes I did. How many spots are there on the site? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 18 right? M~BER TORTORA: On site, I only saw - MS. MOORE: It's 15 to 20 can be off site plus that on site is three, handicap and two. -Page 57 - Transcripz if Hearings · Meeting of October 22, 1997 Souihold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER TORTORA: Two handicap? MS. MOORE: One handicap and two. MEMBER TORTORA: One and two. The next step. Interpretation aspect of it, You have two apartments now in the existing structure? MS. MOORE; Yes. Full apartments. Kitchen - MEMBER TORTORA: Two full apartments now and what is the size of a new apartment. You're going to replace those with two new apartments. MS. MOORE: Yes. MS. ESSER: Right now we have two - two bedroom apartments and we're replacing them with two - two bedroom apartments. MEMBER TORTORA: Is the footprint the same. Are they larger, or what? ( ) do you know what the size, I really want to know what the size of those apartments. MS. ESSER: It's very hard to tell because it's actually on a different level. We have two duplex apartments in one building and MEMBER TORTORA: Square footage? MS. ESSER: I can calculate them for you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again, you don't have to do that topJght. MS. MOORE: No, no, something that you should keep in mind that in one of the points that you raised was, reconstruction of this building. There is a point of no return and certainly the cost factors - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well that's what I want from her is the points of no return. MS. MOORE: Right. There is also Building Code problems. That one you start taking one piece at a lime, the whole State Code triggers and Federal Code, Handicap Accessibility. All those Codes trigger. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, no, it's got to be taken into consideration the minute you sever that building. MS. MOORE: Absolutely. Well, you start changing windows, and the value is going to be brought up to a certain extent where the Building, certainly the Building Inspectors, the Building Code will say you've expended more than a certain percentage of the value of the structure and now the whole building has to meet code. So, that's a very importaut point that I want you to keep i~ mind. -Page 58 - Transcrip~ of Hearings ~ Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I was referring to an entire tear down. OK, and outside walls you know, because you're going to have to replace all of the windows. MS. ESSER: So what you're asking me to do - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: i'm asking to sever that building, excuse I didn't mean to cut you off. Sever the building from the foundation, reconstruct the foundation in its present footprint, rip the entire periphery of the first floor wall with the stud standing, and then rip the entire second story walt and reconstruct what you basically want. MS. MOORE: So, instead its one timber at a time instead of demolishing it. Is that correct. MS. ESSER: Can ! sbnw you a photograph that would make that pretty impossible? If you look at the way the building is constructed now, it's actually two separate structures, so eveu the ( ) floor the apartment is actually in this back section so the floor plans are not at the same level. The studs aren't of the same height. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that. I understand that, but, if you actually raise the building and elevated it above the street, OK, so that the back of that building ~4as one block high, assun~ng you used block or 8" above the contour of that street, alright, regardless of what you ended up wSth, in reference to level floor interiorly in the building. I'm not asking you to do it, I just want to know what your figure would be in reference to a total tear down of construction. MS. MOORE: Keep in mind that part of my presentation which your cutting me off is the area variance criteria. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1 didn't say this was etched in stone. MS. MOORE: No, no, ! understand, but, what I will be presenting to you in addition to what you've already heard is that the area variance criteria and the cost of the feasibiilty of relocating the building or providing parking by taking out a putty green or by affecting the golf course in any way, is a financial hardship, so it's not only the construction of the building, it's also if you start changing it around, you're going to affect the golf course and that is, I mean it's the oldest golf course in the United States? One of the oldest golf courses in the United Stated. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well that's why I ask how long the first floor MS. MOORE: Right, so it should be preserved and the cost of replacing any of those particularly the pipe ( ) is an exorbitant cost. -Page 59 - Transcript ~f Hearings · '/' :~ Meeting of October 23, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're aware of that: Yes, you did express that. I think at this particular point we just very simply would like to ask, Mr. Doyen, any way, I'm no trying, you have more questions. MEMBER DOYEN: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead Mrs. Tortora. MF~MBER TORTORA: So, it's a two square footage and you will get the square footage on that at a later ( ). A we, a, Joseph Pfaff, does llot want to normally ( )? MS. MOORE: Yes, but it is a prestigious North Fork Club. You wanted the affidavit~ is that what you were asking me? MEMBER TORTORA: Yes, that's fine. MS. MOORE: Please ask me now while the Board is here because I don't want to have to guess what the answer is. MEMBER TORTORA: You said that you are going to present the criteria for the area variance and the cost of an old ( ). MS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Doyen? MEMBER DOYEN: No, I have no more questions. cHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody on the Board that may not be here at the next meeting or the meeting after. I should bear in mind to you and this is the decision that both your counsel and you have to make, it probably would behoove you to have a Fishers Island Member on the Board at the time of making the final decision. So, we reaily shou]d recess this to early December so to give the Town Board the time to - MS. MOORE: Oh, you mean at Fishers Island from your Board. OK, alright. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Zor~ing Board Member, yes. At least be present for the last hearing too. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That doesn't mean t~at you couldn't present your area irons, but I, you k~ow, I would rather give everybody the opportunity of having 4 Board Members, OK. We could have 5 Board Members, airight. The extent of the r~sum~s' for the Fishers Island Member I thir~k, is November 6th. Is there anybody would like to say a~ything prior to the recessing of this hearing? MR. di BONDAVENTURA: Well, you asked a question about whether we could all come back. ( ) date in December that would be a problem .; .,Page 60 - Transcrip'~ Of Hearings - ... ~ Meeting of October 23, 1997 ~ Southold Town Board of Appeals because of time and difference of people's schedule that we can guaranty that we can all come back. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I also want to point out to you too, that we have pending two tele communication towers. That the moratorium is up on November 17th. Is it the 17th? Yes the hearing is on November 12th. So, we are going to be competing with those. I realize the time limits, the construction situation and so on and so forth, but I personally think that a December hearing is more favorable. We do appreciate it, we will continue to study everything t~at you've given us. MS. MOORE: Keep in mind that something that was raised tonight, that there is a membership limit. So that the existing conditiens and the use of the club today will not be changed tomorrow tl~at this building is there. So you, I would agree with you that there would be a, I would have a real hard case if the building wasn't there today. So we have an ex~sting building. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well we thank you very much. We wish you a safe trip home and we wilt regroup and a continue this process. We'll make a motion recessing the hearing, reserving the decision, I'm sorry, recessing the hearing until December llth. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Could somebody second that? BOARD MEMBER TORTORA: Yes. CHAIR~rIAN GOEHRINGER: All in favor. Meiion carried.