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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-03/19/1997 HEARING Transcript of BELL-ATLANTIC/NYNEX Hearing Wednesday, March 19, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals 6:47 p.m. (Continued from 1/16/97 Meeting): Appl. No.4446 - BELL ATLANTIC ~ NYNEX, as tenant (MARK AND MARYBESS PHILLIPS, Owner). Location of Property: A certain portion of farmland identified as 24850 Main Road, Orient, NY; Zone District: R-80 Residential and Agricultural; County Parcel #1000-18-6-5 which contains a total acreage of 10.5+- acres. Applicant, as future Tenant, is requesting: a) A Variance under Article III, Section 100-31, Bulk Schedule, pertaining to a proposed wireless cellular telephone facility tower over a height of the required 35 ft., for a principal use, or over 18 ft. if the same is requested as an accessory use (main use at this property is known to be agriculture); and b) A special Exception under Article 111, Section 100-31B(6) for permission to construct 12 ftx 40 ft. unmanned modular equipment shelter communications (cellular telephone transmission). CHAIRMAN GERARD GOEHRINGER: We would like to just as a point of order mention to you, that we are presently a four member board. However the Town did appoint a fifth member Tuesday evening. Mr. Villa has resigned. He is no longer with us, and that is the reason why he is not up here tonight. I just wanted you to be aware of that, and we thank the Town Board for there appointment. That person will be with us at the next meeting. We would like to reconvene the Nynex hearing and we would like to ask Mr. Paehman, either Mr. Pachmans, if they would like to continue. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Mr. Chairman, members of the board and citizens of Orient, and Southold. I had a few housekeeping matters to bring up to the board. We reviewed the minutes of the last meeting, and some of the items which we believe were at issue, and still to be concluded, I am ready to conclude right now. CHAIRMAN: Right. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Two things, One was the Certificate from the Public Service Commission of Public convenience and Necessity, and also the FCC licenee. They are beth here, and I hand them up as our next two exhibits. We range 2 - Bell-Atlantle;NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 ,Southold Town Board of Appeals alluded to them at the last hearing, the application of NYNEX. We also alluded to at the last hearing, the application of Nynex, which was the predecessor to our current company Bell Atlantic Nynex Mobile Communication. That was your Appeal ~4058 and ~4062, which was the Junge property in Cutchogue, which is the Nynex application. Because we alluded to the many things that were in the application which we believe are similar to this application and are precedent for this board to follow, that we want it to become part of the record, although it's part of your files. I would also like to read to the board, the Planning Board determination made in that same application with reference to New York State Environment Quality Review Act or SEQRA, with reference to non-significance of the application, because it is identical to what has to be held in this particular case. "...The Planning Board finds that the potential environmental impacts of the proposed construction, are not significant. The potential impac~ of the proposed project, also reviewed by our Environmental Consultant, in a report dated February 3, 1992. This report has been considered by this board, in making this determination of negative declaration. The board's findings are supported by the following information: The site lies within a light industrial zone and is adjacent to the zoned Town's landfill. The proposed use is appropriate for the zoning district. While there are two non- conforming residential dwellings to the West of the site, in view of the new buildings and tower, will be partially screened by the additional landscaping, that will be planted to the West of the monopole. Since the site will be unmanned, there will be no noticeable increase in vehicular traffic to and from the site as a whole. The anticipated radio emission from the antenna appear to be within the radiation hazard standards, of the Occupation Safety and Health Administrations (OSHA), and the American National Standard Institute (ANSI). By the way Mr. Lou Kenica of Science Tech, did testify to that last year, and it now complies with the FCC regulations, as being well below those standards. So I wanted those things to be kept in mind. CHAIRMAN: I just want to say we have not made a SEQRA determination on this yet, ok. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I understand. CHAIRMAN: OK, so I don't know if we concur or we don't concur, in reference to this. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ. Well- Page 3 - Bell-Atlanti6/NYNEX · TR~-NSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: And remember, that is light industrial property and we're talking a different zone in this particular case. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I understand that, but the findings should be of no different or great consequence or difference, even if you talk light industry and residential because of the code specifications. CHAIRMAN: We also had no contest from the Town because the landfill is in back of that particular site, off of County Road 48. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Well, I don't see any conflict with the Town on this application either. Are you talking about the Town of Southold? CHAIRMAN: The Town of Southold owns the landfill on that to the rear of that particular piece of property. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ:. I understand, ok. We'll look at that point, too, Mr. Goehringer. I'm glad you brought it up. There were several other issues that were raised, and in reference to Mr. Gazzo's testimony.. Mr. Gazzo had testified with reference to the need and filling in the gaps for the surge area, and two questions were rendered to him at that particular time, and constantly in reading the various information that is being circulated in the Town from the residents of Orient, including correspondence to the Supervisor and correspondence to Congressman Forbes, with reference to the selected site, of the people in Orient, that this site be put on Plum Island. Mr. Gazzo testified at that particular time, and he so certified again in his affidavit, that "...I have reviewed the data, with regard to the location of the proposed tower, and I reiterate that the erection of the tower at Pinto Island, would not eliminate the Orient service deficiency." The gap of coverage in this area can only be eliminated by locating the proposed tower near or adjacent to the proposed location .... " Then Mrs. Tortora, indicated that she wanted to know where the other micro cell sites were. He's put in his affidavit, that to the best of his knowledge, the existing micro cell communications that are connected with Bell Atlantic Nynex, are in the Pennsylvania Station, the Holland Tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel, Madison Square Garden, Nassau CoHseum~ Stalen Island Ferry Terminal. Micro Celt Technology has only limited applications. It was designed to eliminate the service of deficiencies in small areas, which have very high cellular phone usage, such as within urban areas and heavily populated or traveled suburban areas. I have testified during the Janu- ary 6, 1997 hearing, that this micro cell technology is simply not feasible to eliminate the service deficiency in the Orient area. I submit that affidavit to you, as an additional exhibit. More questions. With reference to the issue by Page 4 - Bell-Atlantze/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals Member Villa and, I think, Member Dinizio. With reference to, whether Mr. Villa wanted to know about the generator, and in the affidavit of Mr. Gazzo, who is qualified and who testified last time. "... I have reviewed the information supplied by the manufacturer of the Kohler Model 3070ZJ generator, which will be installed inside the fiber board equipment building, adjacent to the monopole at the proposed communication facility. As installed at that site, the generator will have a louvre, the sound level of 54 DVA, which is barely above ambient noise. I have also reviewed the information supplied from Engineering Endeavors Inc., the manufacturers of the monopole, which will be installed at the Proposed communication facility. Engineer Endeavors has never experienced or made aware of any monopole structure that has generated whistling type noises, caused by the wind. Monopoles are flexible structures, and deflect due to wind loading. However, once the wind stops, the structure moves back to its original position. In regards to the structure reaching a resident frequency,lc, the structure sways back and forth without stopping, it's highly unlikely to occur due to these characteristics. All structures that experience this type of phenonemon generally have two distinct characteristics: 1. Very light weight shafts, with heavy masses at the top, or 2. Very tall, slender structures, in height less than 200 feet. This particular structure does not exhibit any of those characteristics and would not experience this type of vibrational event. In addition, engineers have been very successful in solving this type of problem, by adding additional steel to the structures, to disrupt the aeolian type forces causing the cyclical motion. At my request, not the board's request, my firm also performs surveying services, with respect to the height of other structures in the immediate vicinity of proposed communication facilities, we have determined that, the free standing antenna structure, at the rear of the Orient Fire house is 62.8 feet high. The steeple at the Church, diagonally across from the fire house is 96.2 feet high. The windmill on Main Road, 1.8 miles east of the proposed communications facility site, is 75.2 feet high. A representative of Long Island Lighting Company pole along the length of the north side of Main Road, in the vicinity of the proposed site is 46.2, 46.8 feet high. Now remember, we reduced our application from the 100 to 82 feet. (emphasis added). So we are well within marginal differences of existing buildings, or heightened structures in il%at area. Another statement was made. I don't remember the gentleman's name, about the environmental sensitive area, that this tower is proposed to be erected upon. We had given you at our last meeting Fredenthal and Elkowitz, who was our environmental engineer person and she had given you her Page 5 - Bell-Atiantic/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold To~-n Board of Appeals qualifications in. that report. We have asked her to look at this problem and she has given us an affidavit. "...At the request of the applicant, I have reviewed the potential sensitivity of the proposed communications facilities at 24850 Main Road, Orient New York. I submit the following findings: Historic district, and this reiterates what we had given you the last time .... Consultation undertaken with John O'Water of the New York State Office of Parks Recreation and Historic presentation and with Bob Kassner of the Town of Southold. Both parties confirm that the subject property is not situated within a designated historic district. Wetlands, fresh water and tital wetland maps of New York State Department of Environmental Conservation were reviewed, and no reg~llated wetlands are situated on or adjacent to the proposed monopole site. ...Special ground water protection area. According to the Long Island Comprehension Special Ground Water Protection Area, SGPA plan, the subject site is not located in a SGPA Area. ...Pine Barrens, the subject property is not situated with the designated pine barrens area of Suffolk County, or Central Pine Barrens Joint Planning and Policy Commission. ... Critical Environmental area, pursuant to the consultation with the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, the proposed monopole site is not situated within a designated critical environmental area... · ..Flora and fauna· The proposed monopole site consists of a former agricultural field, and a portion of the abandoned nursery use, as evidenced by the existence of planted shrubs. No significant species of flora or fauna were observed during the site inspections..· · ..Based upon the above considerations, it is in my opinion, that the site of the proposed antenna, is not in an area which is environmental sensitive and will not create any significant adverse environmental impact to surrounding community .... " I submit that affidavit to supplement our application. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: On February 12, 1997, I wrote to the Chairman of the Board of Fire Commissioners, the Orient Fire Department and once again, asking the reference of the use or the availability of that site. The Fire Department site in Orient. ·.. Dear Sir: Page 6 - Bell-Atianti~)'~qyNEx · TRAiNSCRIPT Public Hearing 'held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals You are aware we are the Attorneys representing Bell Atlantic Nynex Mobile plan, with respect to the above referenced application, at the Southold Zoning Board Appeals hearing on January 16, 1997. Several alternative sites were discussed as were ~th the plan would be willing to locate to a similar tower in an area acceptable to them. As you know, the site that was suggested by the Southold Planning Department, is behind the Fire House Headquarters. We would like to have an opportunity to sit down with yourself, and members of your board, to discuss the possibility. Of course, Bell Atlantic Nynex would he willing to relocate your fire alarm, and other services, on the proposed monopole, consistent with vans operating requirement, thus eliminating the need for multiple towers at the site. This would also supply rental income ta the district, with its intended tax reduction to the district taxpayers. Your response would be appreciated. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Response, on February 20, 1997 ...Dear Mr. Pachman, The Board of Fire Commissioners wishes to thank you for your letter of February12, regarding the Bell Atlantic Nynex Mobile Cellular Tower. The board has responded to this request by deference- I underline that word myself, it's not underlined in the letter to the Orient Association, which represents the homeowners of the community .... " A copy of that letter was sent to you in December 23, 1999 as attached. And that letter I had submitted the last time. So, the Board of Fire Commissioners will not opt to make an independent determination. They will be bound by the Orient Civic Association, which I believe has been here last time, and I presume is here again tonighi, in opposition to this application. Another Gentlemen stood .up again and his name escapes me, and said that, this was environmental sensitive land, and the Federal Communication under Part 47, requires that certain things be done. Part 47, that he referred to: 97.1. The basis and purpose of the rules and regulations of this part is designed for amateur radio use, and a whole series of definitions under, which that part participates and pertains to. It does not pertain to cellular communications. Part 22, of the Federal Communications Commission, which are very lengthy at best, spoke on authority of that section. The purpose of these rules, is to establish to requirements and conditions, under which domestic common carrier radio stations may be licensed and used by the Public mobile service, which is what we are, and therefore we are bound by that section, and there is no comparable prohibition in that particular section of the code. This is my only copy and I can't give you that. Page, ? - Bell-Atlanti~/NYNEX TRA~NSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: I think we got copies at the Association of Towns, thank you. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Good. CHAIRMAN: And if we didn't, we'll call you. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Ok, give me a call then· Now the last item. CHAIRMAN: OK, Mr. Paehman while you are doing that we will open some windows. Ok, we're ready. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Members of this board at the very end brought up a new twist: the issue of whether we need a variance, and whether this site requires subdivision regulations for a variance. Based upon the prior acts of this board, the answer is absolutely, categorically no. If you look at the Elijah's Lane site which is LB, Hmited business. There are three uses on that site. One is a Parts place. Two is a museum of some kind· CHAIRMAN: It's an old potato barn. Several old potato barns linked together. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: It has a sign in front of it, saying CHAIRMAN: They sell some antiques on the weekend. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And the AT&T Cell One Site. That particular one, I read your opinion and I looked at your regulations on that, and there was no requirement that that site be subdivided. CHAIRMAN: Can I just ask you a question? That was a cellular one site· HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: yes Sir. CHAIRMAN: Do you presently operate or own that site. HOWARD PACHMA~ ESQ: No. CHAIRMAN: OK. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Nor does Cell One, they are a lessee. MEMBER TORTORA: Mr. Pachman, I've reviewed the transeript and I don't find the word "subdivision" in the transcript. Page 8 - Bell-Atlantic?NYNEX TR~k*NSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: That's right. That's exactly my point. MEMBER TORTORA: I didn't mention the word subdivision, so how did you come to that? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: There is more than one use at the site, a variance, because it was using less than the area that was necessary at that particular site. CHAIRMAN: That's not what we (unfinished sentence) MEMBER TORTORA: That's not what I suggested. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Let me finish, and if I haven't answered your questions, let me then talk about that. CHAIRMAN: OK. HOWARD PACHMAN ES(~: On the Cutehogue site of Nynex predecessors of Bell Atlantic, I looked at the site plan and I have it in front of me. That has one building, and it has a bakery or was a bakery at One time. CHAIRMAN: It was a caterer. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: .Caterer, OK, CHAIRMAN: By the way, that's your site? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Yes Sir. CHAIRMAN: Right. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And we put up a cell site and an accessory structure. The whole site was utilized for the purpose of determining the side yard varianee, that you requested that we have. There were no requirements in that applicatio, n for a variance, because we're going in less than 80,000 square feet, or in that case, I think it's 80,000 square feet also, if I'm not mistaken. So, in a second case, this board did not require that as a prerequisite. Thirdly, the use of either of those applications, somewhat mystifies me when you constantly say it's an accessory use, based upon your definition and your ordinance, none of these cellular towers are accessory uses to the multiple uses that are used on these properties. An accessory use is defined as a building or structure, A building or structure detached from the principal building, located at the same lot, and customary and incidental and subordinate, to the principal building. Neither of these cellular sites is the antenna or the cellular structure, incidental, subordinate or accessory. So that holding, as I say, mystifies me. If you look at the Zoning ordinance, the only restriction in RS0 district it says, on any site, there Page ~ - Bell-Arian ' YNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals shall be not more than one building on the site, residential building. No requirements. No requirement in that ordinance~ that any other use which is permitted or conditionally permitted use, must be singular in use. So therefore, in applying your own ordinance, there is no requirement for us to ask for a variance. But out of a spirit of "generosity" on my .part, if you feel and that would make you feel more' comfortable in granting this application, and you also grant us a varianee, we would amend our application to ask for such a variance. CHAIRMAN: I see. I will let Mrs. Tortora speak, too - I just want to say something to you, ok, in those other two situations, one of which, the building has been there sinoe the mid fifty's. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: It doesn't matter. CHAIRMAN: OK, the Ag and Markets Law allowed the barn to be there, which has pleobably been there since the thirty's. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Doesn't matter. CHAIRMAN: As in the ease of the Junge application, which was built in the eighties, that is the situation that we are basically dealing with in this aspect. That's ali I want to say. Member Tortora? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Excuse me, the Agricultural and Markets Law does not adversely effect or impinge upon, or change the rules of laws of zoning. I'm sorry to say. CHAIRMAN: You're absolutely correct, but if there was a barn on this particular property... HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: It would be a preexisting use. CHAIRMAN: That is correct. And even though that is not a dwelling, there would be what we construe to be a nonconforming primary structure, even though it's not a dwelling or a business use or whatever. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I agree with you. I don't care if the use is a permitted use, conditionally permitted use or a nonconforming use. They are uses, and you allow multiple uses on the property without variances. If this property ultimately needs a subdivision, it is premature for this board, and not within the jurisdiction, of this board, to determine at some future date, if the owner of this property came here and he wants to utilize his property and subdivide it, and goes before the Planning Board, they will be constricted by whatever exists at that particular time, as to how that parcel may be ,~ Pa~ge 10 - Bell-Atlan~icTNYNEX TR~iNSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals subdivided. I've got one more thing to say, and I'll let you talk, Mrs. Tortora. MEMBER TORTORA: I'd like to review this but one question? What is the principal use of the property now? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: According to your advertisement it's agricultural. I don't know how you come up with that, but I'll accept that, if it's not so. Residential in zone, it has no use at this point. It is purely residentially zoned property. MEMBER TORTORA: I concur with you. There is no principal use of the property now, and I believe you said a couple of minutes ago you said, that in all the other eases, neither is the antenna incidental or accessory, in the other cases that you mentioned. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Due to the principal use that exists on that property, correct. MEMBER TORTORA: Correct. But there is no principal use on this property. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: At this point, the principal use, the only use on this property would be an acces-, a building with an accessory, with a tower, all right, and under the case law, the case law states, and I'll be handing up a brief at the end of this meeting, to help guide you I hope, in your judicious determination. All right Payne v. Taylor, I have it here. If it's not in the brief, we'll give it to you. The appellate division held that the tower and the structure are deemed to be the same. They are part of the telecommunications facility, and they cannot be discriminated against and separated, or passed as being different parts. Now, it just came to my attention today, I haven't had a full chance to review ali the papers, that behind the Police Station on the grounds of the Highway Department is a tower. CHAIRMAN: Right. Page 11 - Bell-Atlanti~TNYNEX TR~{NSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: That was originally used by the Police Department, and in 1996 the Town of Southold entered into a lease with NYNEX-Tel, and allowed NYNEX-tel to erect a tower, an antenna on an existing tower, and an accessory structure. CHAIRMAN: Yes. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: The search of the Building Department indicates the only required document was a building permit to erect the accessory structure. I dontt understand how that goes, and how this discrimination, and I believe it to be discrimination, is when your ordinance 100-31B6 says, "...Public utility, rights of way, as well as structures and other installations ,..." so giving it your broadest interpretation. I don't agree with it, but giving it any kind of interpretation~ that all these things are installations, or structures, necessary to serve areas within the Town, subject to such conditions as the Board of Appeals may impose, and order to protect and promote the health, safety and welfare etc., must go before this board for a special permit because it's an RS0 zone. I don't care if it's property that has been used by the Town of Southold. The zoning of that particular area is still RS0, and that portion of the commercial lease which applies to the Town, should have been required to come in here for a similiartype of variance, if it was required. I don't think it should have come in because I don't think I should belong here either. CHAIRMAN: I just want to say one thing, Mr. Paehman, that property is adjacent to both the Police DeDartment and to the Highway Department. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I know that, it's not an issue. CHAIRMAN: There are large structures on both of those. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: It's not the issue. CHAIRMAN: And I understand what you're saying. Also, there was a tower there before. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I understand that. CHAIRMAN: OK. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I'm not talking about the tower. I'm talking about the allowing of NYNEX-Tel to put its antenna already, on that particular tower, where it was owned by the Town or the County. It's in an RS0 zone, and it required the same special permit that you're asking us to do, and the Town only required a building permit. That is discrimination, and under the Telecommunications Act~ you cannot discriminate against one carrier in favor of another carrier. Pag? 12 - Bell-Atlantic~/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: OK, the other issue is and we will be discussing this. This Board of Appeals as precedents in 'the past has never allowed a person build an accessory structure, on a separate piece of property, except under that Agand Markets issue, of which we're kind of exempt from. We have linked every single solitary piece of property to a primary structure. We have even had a gentleman in Cutehogue who wanted to build a carport. He ended up building a house above his carport. A carport probably cost him about $150,000.00, all right. I can assure you, that nowhere does it exist for the 17 years I've been here, how I seen an accessory building or an accessory structure built on a vacant piece of land, non agrarian. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Mr. Goehringer, I'm sorry to say, how can you say this is an accessory structure, when there's nothing else on this property? CHAIRMAN: Well, it's not a primary structure. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Why not? CHAIRMAN: Because there is no one living there. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: A primary structure doesn't have to be a residence. CHAIRMAN: We're not saying it is a residence. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: You don't have to live there, to be a primary structure. CHAIRMAN: We're not saying it has to be occupied. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: No, it doesn't have to be occupied. CHAIRMAN: We'll let Lydia go on this one. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: It does not have to be occupied. MEMBER TORTORA: I think the point is very simple. It's a vacant piece of land, A vacant piece of land has no principal use. We agree on that. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Correct. MEMBER TORTORA: OK, under our zoning code, this is RS0 zoning, and all the other instances you talked about~ the land was not vacant. There were uses on that land, accessory and principal uses. In order for you to comply with the zoning code in my opinion, this is only my opinion, you must either meet the requirements of our zoning, which is two acre or apply for an area variance, or convince this board through any Pa'ge 13 - Bell-Atlan~-/NYNEX ' TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals other means that you choose, why that should not occur. Why we should treat you as a special exception. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Because the ordinance says, that you must treat me as a special exception. MEMBER TORTORA: No, I was -- You know what I mean. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: As to treat us differently. Well, I don't agree with what you've said. I respectfully differ with you, and I respectfully differ with the chairman. The parcel is five acres. MEMBER TORTORA: Is it five or ten, because your application says ten. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Ten acres, I'm sorry. It's ten acres. Under 80,000 square foot, if it was to be subdivided, we would be allowed to put a five lots in. MEMBER TORTORA: It isn't subdivided though. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I said, if it was to be subdivided, we could put five lots in it. I have a plan that shows at best, it could be five. If it were juggled around, maybe four, depending on how the road is placed in the situation. Even if you segregated this tower to one 80,000 square-foot site, which you have no right to do as the zoning board of appeals, we could still get four lots, on thai site, if it were to be subdivided, without a variance, or come in at that time if they wanted to have five lots, and then ask for the variance, to allow that parcel to be less than the 80,000 square feet, which under subdivision regulations can be granted by the Planning Board. MEMBER TORTORA: That's true, but that's not the proposal before us. MR. PACHMAN: Excuse me? MEMBER TORTORA: We don't have a subdivision proposal before us. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: That's exactly my point. MEMBER TORTORA: We don't. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: That's right. That's exactly my point. MEMBER TORTORA: We simply have a proposal to erect a tower on an 1800 square foot parcel and lease access road totaling square footage of, I think, it's 4200 square feet. Pa~e 14 - Bell-Atlanf~c/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals Rather than going around in this, I think we both understand where we're both coming from, and you have submitted ... HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I think my eo counselor, thinks he can help me out. MATTHEW PACHMAN ESQ: Maybe if I just state it another way. CHAIRMAN: You're going to have to speak a Httle louder. MATTHEW PACHMAN ESQ: Maybe if If I could just state it another way. Yes, this parcel is 10 acres. Obviously, the minimum lot area in this zoning district is 80,000 square feet. This is a conditionally permitted use. We don't have a circumstance where the parcel of land, the lot, is less than 80,000 square feet. With respect to the prior grants under both EHjah's Lane, and the one prior for Nynex Mobile Communication. There wasn't a requirement that the applicant make a minimum lot area variance, because the size of the parcel of land which is leased was less than 40,000 square feet, or 80,000 square feet as required by that particular zoning district. So, under the rules of am administrative board where there have been prior determinations by the board, that there is no requirement that the applicant make a minimum lot area variance, because the total lot on which it is going to build, exceeds the minimum lot area of the zoning ordinance, then we respectfully submit it would be improper for the Board to require that in this case. Whether this is accessory use or principal use, it is a use conditionally allowed on this zoning district. You have greater that 80,000 square feet. Indeed, you have 10 acres. To require a minimum lot area variance in this case would be inconsistent with the prior grants to the Elijah's Lane's parcel and the Nynex Mobile Communications parcel, where there was also a conditionally permitted use. Also, a situation where the total leased area was less than the requirement, then the minimum requirement. But the total lot on which it was buiR, was greater than the minimum lot area, and I guess that's the argument we're trying to put forth. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pachman, there was some discourse during the January 16th hearing and today, which I thought there was some commitment to, with reference to - I don't know the exact terminology used, but something to the effect, that you would lease 80,000 square feet or covenant 80,000 square feet, and I know, I apologize, that you would covenant 80,000 square feet, and that some discussion was done between our office, ok. I was not privy to that, ok. Are you familiar with that at all? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: NO. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Then you might consider that. I think I had mentioned it to you. Pa~e 15 - Bell-Atlant¥~/NYNEX "TRA~NSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Oh, would I consider that, yes. Like trading quit pro quo? CHAIRMAN: No, I think we've gotten to that point right now. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: If I'm making a concession here, am I getting a concession from the board, that that's the condition they will grant the application. MEMBER TORTORA: No. MEMBER DOYEN: No. MEMBER TORTORA: This is one aspect that we're trying to address. CHAIRMAN: One of many. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Well, I hope we have addressed every one of them. All right, as I indicated to you, there is, and I think this is premature, but I want to put this board's mind at ease if I can. We have 10 acres here, going back to here. Based upon the zoning code as it exists today: lot size 80,000 square feet, width of 175 feet, depth of 250 feet~ side yards total of 40. Ali those conditions,, we can put in here, with a 50 foot road, with rights-of-way into each one of these properties, five sites. If later on it becomes necessary to segregate this one lot, we can do that. Ali we have to do is make the application and we're willing to do that, is move this back 85 feet more, so it will come further from the road, and well within the confines of a subdivision lot. CHAIRMAN: OK. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: So, but that's premature here. I'm saying it can be done. I'm just showing you it can be done. I'm just showing you the mathematics of it under the current zone, if that was a Planning Board determination and if that would relieve the board here of this doubt in their mind, we would amend our application to extend this site back 100 feet further from the road. MEMBER TORTORA: You're talking about filing a subdivision? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: No. We would say now, this application which calls for the distance of (unfinished sentence) CHAIRMAN: It's an anticipatory subdivision. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Where is the site plan. I don't have it. Do you have the site plan there, Linde, please? BOARD SECRETARY: Yes. Page 16 - Bell-Atlant~/NYNEX TRA~NSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: Sure, take that. Bv the way for the public, we will every hour, we'll take a short~ recess and allow you to look at everything that's up here. So, we'll pull the mike in so nobody trips or anything. We have approximately 15 minutes. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: OK, we're going back now 165 feet. CHAIRMAN: Right HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: So ff we extended that by, Dick, another 100 feet? MR. Richard : Yes. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: So it would be back 265 feet. That would clearly come within the (the ike isn't working). CHAIRMAN: Your mike doesn't work. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Doesn't work. CHAIRMAN: There it (mike) is goes. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I'm burning out too. Lot I you would have, the only thing you would have to do, if you did this, that subsequently, you would have to change ultimately, the access from this area here. CHAIRMAN Yes. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Which is easily done. CHAIRMAN: Right. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And so we would eliminate this area here, we would go... So I at this point, I would ask that the application be amended, so that the setback of the tower and the accessory building be 100 feet more than the 165 feet that we called for, and I respectfully request my application be amended accordingly. CHAIRMAN: OK. What else do you have to give us tonight, Sir? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: At the end of the night, I'll give you my brief. CHAIRMAN: That's mine. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I'm giving it back to you. CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I have hopefully -. Pa~ge 17 - Bell-Atlant~J/NYNEX ' ' ~ TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: That's actually yours, hut you gave it to me. (map showing five lots). HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: It's not a conditional gift. CHAIRMAN: OK HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Thank you very much for your attention. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Do you want to discuss that now, or should wa take a short recess? MEMBER DINIZIO: What? CHAIRMAN: I think we'll take a short recess here, and allow everybody to look at this. I have one thing I want to discuss with the board. Approximately three minutes, Ladies and Gentlemen. I offer that as a resolution. MEMBER DINIZIO: Second Resolution adopted. (Tape changed to Side B, Tape 1). CHAIRMAN: I'm just a little confused about your math, Mr. Pachman. HOWARD BACHMAN ESQ: The subdivision? CHAIRMAN: Yes, are you saying that in moving the entire structures back 185 feet, that it puts you basically on the second lot? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Yes. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: It's a 100 or more feet. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: With the depth of this it's 240 feet. CHAIRMAN: Good, it's 240 feet your moving back? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Look that up, I need. my site plan back. CHAIRMAN: OK HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: With the requirement of your zoning code, it says that~ you have to have 80,000 square feet, width of 175 feet, depth of 250 feet. That's the necessary depth that we need. Ok? CHAIRMAN: Right. , Pag~ 18 - Bell-Atlant~c~/NYNEX ·TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: So, and they varied. Some are 272, so when you file a zoning map, some lots are a little bigger, some lots are a little bit, as long as you get the same yield on that site. I'm saying, that based upon the site plan that we submitted to you and the requirements, we were going back 165 feet. CHAIRMAN: Yes. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: OK, 165 feet, just bear with me please. CHAIRMAN: Sure. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Would potential create, that it would be on the line. CHAIRMAN: Oh, I see. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: See what I'm saying, so by moving back that additional 100 feet, we clear the line keeping you still within the confines of the necessary lines. CHAIRMAN: So these are 80,000 square feet? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: That's right. They meet your current zoning code. So by putting it here, we'll be in the center or on this lot, and we will not impinge upon, you'll have your yields. MEMBER TORTORA: Your distance from here to here. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Right now. MEMBER TORTORA: No, the distance on that map it how much? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: It's the same 240, they're all the same. MEMBER TORTORA: The distance from the access road to the tower? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Right on ibis one now will be, 240 plus 85. I'll round it out and give you 100. The 85 is again your arbitrary basis of having a fall zone, which by the way, Elijah's Lane, the fall zone falls on the building. So I don't understand it, and it also falls on the building on our Cutchogue site. CHAIRMAN: Well, we had engineers (unfinished sentence) HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: You had letters, that doesn't mean anythh~g. Pa~e 19 - Bell-Atlan~cTNYNEX ~ TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: No, we had engineers testify. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I testified the same thing. My people said, this thing will not fall down. My engineer testified. CHAIRNLAN: We didn't ask for a fall zone. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I'm just saying, if you ask for a fall zone. CHAIRMAN: We didn't ask for one. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: OK, but this can go back 85 feet, and that will be the length of the pole. CHAIRMAN: The concern of this board has always been in reference to these poles, that they not be extra loaded, ok HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: They're not. CHAIRMAN: OK HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: They will not be. CHAIRMAN: But that has been the request. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: We testified to (unfinished sentence) CHAIRMAN: Because the certification has been, that they will do 200 miles an hour, wind velocity and so on and so forth. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: By the way, if you went up (unfinished sentence). CHAIRMAN: If you loaded them with 14 antennas on them, I don't know what they'll do. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Even if you go up 100 feet, it will be wind loaded to still handle 200 miles an hour. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Could we also have one of those maps for the file? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: OK, I'll give you that. CHAIRMAN: So, it's my understanding that you are talking about modification of this application, which you will do in our office after this hearing. , HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Right, I'll run in there and I'll sign my life away. CHAIRMAN: OK. All right. Pa'ge 20 - Beli-Atlan~c~NYNEX TRA~NSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Only until tomorrow morning (jokingly). CHAIRMAN: No, we'd rather have you do it tomorrow morning, when your fresh. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: My wife expects me back home. I am married and loved by my children and grandchildren. CHAIRMAN: Does that conclude your proposal? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Yes, if we have to do any rebuttal, which I don't think we'll have to. CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Tortora, do you have any questions of Mr. Pachman? MEMBER TORTORA: No. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Doyen. MEMBER DOYEN: No. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dinizio? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, I have a couple of things. At the last hearing~ it was mentioned by one of your experts that Nynexwas getting complaints in the area. MR. Can't hear you. Use the microphone. MEMBER DINIZIO: It (microphone) doesn't work. I'll speak loudly. I can do that. At the last meeting, one of Nynex's experts had testified that they were getting complaints in the area from cellular telephone users. So I wrote to the Bureau of Records access officer, Mr. Steven Blow, and he taxed me a one-page response basically saying that there are no service related complaints against Bell NynexAtlantic Mobile for the year 1996. That doesn't necessarily mean thai there aren't any. I just maybe didn't ask the right question in the right way. So, perhaps maybe you could? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Well, there is two possibilities for the answer. CHAIRMAN: You have fo use the mike, Howard. Sorry. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: There are two answers to that question. One is, if you recall Mr. Gazzo's testimony was 'we get calls' indicating that there are drop calls, static, etc. That means the company gets the calls. The company based upon a policy and other companies have a similar policy, that that's internal communications, and personal and privileged to the company. Now sometimes, sometimes, there are complaints Pa~ge 21 - Bell-Atlanfzc~/NYNEX TRAhNSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals that may be addressed to the Public Service Commission, and sometimes there may be complaints to the FCC, all right. Now, these people when I call up and I'm driving in my ear, and I have my cell phone, and I have a drop call, the first person I'm going to call up is the company that gives me the service and yell at them. Why do I have lousy service, and they come back to me and say, 'well, we need more towers,' meaning more location. CHAIRMAN: Let's give the man courtesy. ~orry, Mr. Paehman. (SPEAKER OUT OF ORDER) CHAIRMAN: QUIET. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Let me say it this way, because I didn't mean to evoke the force. What they say is, we do not have enough ability to transmit in that area. And they don't necessarily say, we don't have enough tower. They say, our capacity in that area is limited, by what we have at that point. That's why people in the efficiency department, the RFdepartment, the customer service department, are constantly, constantly trying to upgrade the service, so they won't have that. I hope that doesn't bring a laugh to anyone's lips. But, the other thing you have to understand is that part of the obligation of New York Telephone Company, Bell Atlantic Company, Bell Atlantic Nynex Mobile, any one of these services, we must supply services to the most poorly economic area, the most poorly serviced area~ where there may be only l0 phones, or 5 phones, because the law ~says that you must give equal service. Equal service to anyone who wants service, and that's why we talk about the term 'seamless service.' So even though we may not want to come into a community because the people in Orient only use 100 phones and the people who use the roads use 1000 phones, we must supply the service, not only for the 100 people, and that's an arbitrary number, and I don't mean to put anyone down by saying it, or 1000 that goes through here. We must provide the service. The people may not want those cars to come through here; those cars come through here. And we can't make that judgment that they can't come through here. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pachman, we have conducted our own little survey, all right. I presently am an owner of a Motorola Cellular Phone, not with an external antenna, but an antenna that's on the phone. I've had no problem in that area contacting anybody that I wanted to contact. I know, Mr. Dinizio has used his also. Mr. Diniziois a technician in this business, so to speak. Not necessarily with all of the nuances that your expert testimony has, but he's worked for Cablevisionfor many years. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: We are not cablevision, no. CHAIRMAN: Presently he does not work for Cablevision. P~ge 22 - Bell-Atlanfi~TNYNEX TRA~qSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: OK. CHAIRMAN: I don't understand why this tower has to be placed in this location. I realize that this gentleman has spent a ~ong time, and he has tremendous credentials, this gentlemen in back of you. I understand, very nicely that he has explained to us all those areas that are browned out, so to speak. I realize all this other stuff. But when push comes to shove if I've got to dial 765-2600 or 911 in that area, I have no problems doing that, and in both cases that triggers Southold Town Police. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Let me indicate to you that Bell- Atlantic/Nynexis not willy-nilly arbitrarily deciding to come in and say, "This site is what we need." Forgetting about the rental of this site, the soft cost of about $40,000.00. It costs about a total of $1.1 million. .They're not going to put down 1,200,000.00 on an arbitrary capricious act of picking this site out of nowhere. Their engineers, their experts, their people that they have to design the network for, now and in the future, for what the equipment needs. I'm not going to put in that kind of money and say~ "We don't really need it there; we're doing this as a fluke. As an arbitrary." It is a good site, boom, "make it there." You're assured thai they engineered this site. They worked over this site carefully with their calipers, their slide rules, and everything that's necessary to make sure that this site works. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pachman, in all due respect to you, and you've been before this board many times before, I think this is the first time we had the luxury of meeting your son. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Look forward to seeing him more. CHAIRMAN: I'm an avid voter, all right, although I don't spend as much time in the rear of Shelter Island as I would like to and out in Gardiner's Bay. It appears to me and I'm an novice at this, all right, that you are trying to construct a site that is going to be utilized by the rear portion of Shelter Island, Gardiner'sIsland and a portion of the South Shore. I mean, that's what appears to me. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Well. CHAIRMAN: I could be wrong~ but that's what appears to me. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: With · ali due respect, I've submitted in evidence, and we have given you grids of this is our search area and this is our coverage area. The fact that a part may flip over to Shelter Island, that part of it flip over to some other area because there's leakage, this is the search area, this is the need, this is the requirement. This is our need for the site. $1,200,000.00 to get that coverage. Page 23 - Bell-Atianir~/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing hold 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: Again, I can understand the purpose of having the bunker effect towards the North, so you don't bounce off of the antennas in Connecticut, and so on and so forth. But again I say to you that I think you're servicing an area in my opinion more than what you are just requesting. Sorry, Jim. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just have a --have spoken on my cell phone from the causeway to Orient Point Ferry with minimal interference. I can't say that it was seamless, but I can say that I never got hung up on it. But it seems to me that you know, the zoning is probably correct, the size of the lot is probably correct, but there is one thing to me that is missing, and that is, the technical need for this, if I can - I'm not on Nynex; I'm on AT&T. And I don't know where their tower is. My assumption is that it's in Greenporf here. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Wait, wait. You're on a different carrier. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Different grid. MEMBER DINIZIO: Same type of service. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: No, absolutely not. Our grid, if I call up I don't get AT&T service. I get Bell Atlantic Nynex Service, and I'm bound by their grid and their tower unless I get into roam situation and I leave this community, out of the area of my particular cell site, and I tie into roam. Then I go into a different carrier, but I don't get on AT&T'slines. And AT&T has a site in - it has two sites I think in Cutehogue, right. It looks like they have two sites in Cutchogue. They have the Elijah's Lane site and they may be a tenant, we'll find that out tomorrow on the Southold -. CHAIRMAN: Then you're going to have to afford us a Bell Nynex cellular phone for testing purposes. MR. PELUSO: I volunteered that at the last meeting, Sir. CHAIRMAN: I don't want it from you, I want it from them. MR. PELUSO: I'm right next door, I'll have to go ( ). CHAIRMAN: I don't want it from you. MR. PELUSO (speaking out of turn): I have Bell-Atiantie-NyNex now. I'll call up now. CHAIRMAN: I .need it from them, so that we can test it, that's the only thing I can say. We're not going to make an extraordinary amount of calls. We're going to do it under certair~ weather conditions. Pa~g~ 24 - Bell-Aflan{~o{NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN,ESQ: I can't answer that question, Mr. Chairman. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: I have one if you want to borrow mine. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's one way of getting a phone. Give it to me for a month, I'll test it out for you. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Mr. Gazzohas a question of you, Mr. Dinizio, based upon that, I tlfink. MEMBER DINIZIO: OK MR. GAZZO: Just to try and, I was trying to make people understand and you asked why we technically need something, and you're trying to understand our technical need. The only analogy I can make that may be partly to your past career was that you worked for the Cable Company. Is that correct? MEMBER DINIZIO: (Nodded affirmative.) MR. GAZZO: When you developed your cable system, and you did your distribution, and you designed your distribution network for your signal strength, that would ultimately, it's called a lost budget, where you would get to the end use of the customer, right? That's called a distribution network, a lost budget. There has to be some specification that somebody says, this is the mark. This is where it is. You don't go around and survey 100,000 people in their homes and say "Does it look good to you, ok, thanks. How does' that look to you?" You can't go buy something that is nonconerete and nontangible, because what one person views as quality service, another person does not view as quality service, and espeeially when you get into video and the way video is. I have people who are fanatics, who come over to my house and say, "How can you watch that? There's Hnes, I can see the Hnes of resolution. My brother-in-law works for a cablevision and he said, "Your line- you have a crack in your line. You need to fix that.: It looks fine to me, but I'm not going to portray to them, how to provide their services, and the engineering standards that they have to set to get general customer satisfaction, and I think we have a certain engineering status that we have to keep, and we deemed that this area does needs it, and you even said, your call was not the best quality on AT&T's network, and AT&T does have a site closer to this area than our site. Our site is much further away. Thus in essence, you're kind of proving my case for me just by saying that, because they are closer so they are going to get a better signal in here. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, I would like to know where that is? MR. GAZZO: I think it's behind the Police Station, right? Page 25 - Beli-Atlanf~c/NYNEX · TR/kNSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Well, we definitely know that the AT&T Cellular One site is at Elijah's Lane because that was the application for that particular site. It has just come to my attention tonight when I found this other information with reference to the NYNEX-TEL site on the Police tower, that there also may be a Metro. One tower on that. If that's the case, then it's even closer. So your needs, and I haven't run a survey of where the other sites are for AT&T, Now, but I think the issue and I want to take it under advisement, I heard what you said, Mr. Chairman, and-. CHAIRMAN: We don't even have to do that. We can meet Mr. Gazzohere, and if we can ride around with him. We don't have to make sporadic calls. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: But you see -. CHAIRMAN: We're trying to put People's minds at rest here, and trying to answer all the questions of these very nice people who are very concerned. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I understand that. They're not concerned about the service, they're concerned about the tower. Let's not misunderstand what they're concerned about. ' · They don't care about one idiota about the service. They are only concerned about the tower. CHAIRMAN: You're telling me that I -. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Visually. CHAIRMAN: Yes. You're telling me that I'm discriminating against you on certain issues, ok. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Yes. CHAIRMAN: OK, I'm saying to you that you have - . HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: If you turned me down, you are. CHAIRMAN: I'm telling you, that you haven't, I realize that you have all the technicians here, and we were extremely impressed with Mr. Gazzo'stestimony, and we still are, ok. However, the proof has not been - has not been put in the pudding, you know? We can understand that, but we're not at the site and we can't see how poor the reception is at that site. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I would before I say yes and before I say no, I would like to take that under advisement. CHAIRMAN: Sure. P~ge 26 - Bei1-Atlan(~iNYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And I will correspond to you in writing as to my decision. CHAIRMAN: Sure. MEMBER DINIZIO: May I ask a question of Mr. Gazzo? You know, I t~nderstand all the engineering parts of it, ok, because of my experience and I guess what I'm saying to you is, you said last time, when I askeda question and I ask it wrong. I'm asking about transmittal power out of the antenna, and you're discussing basically what the transmittal power is from the phone cell I would just like to. have some kind of benchmark as to just exactly far can an antenna, how sensitive can an antenna be to pick up the least powerful PCS or whatever it's going to be. I need an idea of just what your benchmark is. You told me last time that, that was proprietary, and in my mind I don't know how it can possibly be proprietary. I just don't want Io take the time to do the formula - I thought I could take advantage of your experience, in that you're in it, to tell me what is the furthest that one of these, the least powerful device could transmit the most sensitive antenna? That would give me an idea of the need of what you need. Now, there have been things said here tonight that I don't agree with. There are alot of thi~lgs that I don't agree with, ok, and not all of us agree on everything, but that particular part of it, you have to show me that technically, because you're saying technically you need ttzis, but prove it to me technically, that in the future you're going to need this. Just tell me what it's going to take for you to have that antenna and why you need it. Why you can't put it say in Greenport. Why you can't put it out in Plum Island. People have told me, people have suggested those things. I would like to know the reason why. Don't just tell me because it's not advantageous to you. Tell me why. Tell me why technically, why that can't be done. And I'm sure you can. I'm pretty sure you could probably prove that to me. CHAIRMAN: Wait one second, we're trying to get all this done here. Sir? MR. GAZZO: You asked a multitude of questions there. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll ask a single question. Give me the sensitivity of the antenna? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: We will look at it again and respond to it in writing. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, that would be good. MR. GAZZO: Just to expand on that. MEMBER DINIZIO: I appreciate that. Pa'ge 27 - Beli-Atlank~,~lNYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Mr. Dinizio, we will get the minutes from MS. Kowalski. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm ready to reduce that to ~v~iting, Howard, I'll reduce it to writing to you tonight and fax it to you tomorrow. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: She'll have it on the record. You'll have it in about a week or ten days? SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Hopefully, yes. We're planing on doing it that fast. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: OK. I'll have it. You're not meeting again to make a decision on this until sometime in April hopefully, and we'll answer you in writing. MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And your questions. CHAIRMAN: OK, I guess that concludes it. Mrs. Tortora? MEMBER TORTORA: No. CHAIRMAN: I guess we'll start with all the people that would like to speak. I think the gentlemen in the rear, I should say in the center? Pardon me for pointing to everybody. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: You need a name first too. CHAIRMAN: I need your name Sir. The gentleman in the red sweater. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Can I just ask this gentlemen in the black sweater. I forgot your name Sir. Sorry, I apologize MR. PELUSO: Mr. Peluso. CHAIRMAN: Somewhere along the line we will get back to you, and I apologize for the discourse. I would like to see you at your house and would like to try your Bell Atlantic. MS. : Can we start a little out of order because someone has to do it? CHAIRMAN: Just state your name for the record, and try to be as brief as possible. MS. CAROL GILLOOLY: I wasn't planning on speaking but I started to get excited when you were talking, so I've just written a few notes. For starters, I don't think I've ever spoken before a ZBA meeting before and I don't think I've ever attended one before, but perhaps I have. They're are lots of Page 28 - Bell-Atlan~ief~NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals things in life that have become legal, that aren't necessarily correct. Excuse me, I didn't speak while you were speaking. There not necessarily correct and that's why we have 55,000 ears a month passing through our ferry. I'm in the business that is 90% generated on the telephone. I'm a headhunter. I'm a New York State Corporation, and I'm President of that corporation, and I live in Orient. I've lived in Orient and I've been a full time resident there for the last 15 years. I purchased my first cellular phone in 1982. That phone costs me $2,000.00 at the time. I have probably more excessive phone bills. I incur over $2000.00 a month in phone bills. To prove that, they're not all cellular. I am willing to sacrifice any quality of service although I'm not saying that I have. ' I am willing to sacrifice any quality of service that I may incur for quality of life. There is no one else in this Town as a local person that has more of a use of a car phone than I do. The purpose of this tower in my opinion is only to accommodate passersby. Those people that are transient and going to the ferry. Why do we want this? Why should Orient accommodate passers through to the ferry. Why should we accept this tower? Mr. Paehman talked about capacity. Who's challenging that capacity? Orient people aren't challenging that capacity. People that are going to the ferry are challenging that capacity. Nynex has free weekends, free evenings. Local people are not challenging the capacity of that service. You're talking about seamless service. I have used my car phone for the last 15 years up and down. I live with the telephone in my hand, at all times. I have a AT&T and I have a Nynex and I have Central Florida Cellular. If you travel up and down the coast anywhere along the coast, North and South Carolina for the most part, you do not pick up car phone service. Hey, too bad. That's part of life. I think we should put this in Greenport. I think we should put this in Plum Island, and if it negatively impacts - it does negatively impact our quality of life. You talked about cablevision before. Cablevision is not for people going to the ferry. If you have a problem with cablevision; it's for your next door neighbor and the people of the town to get together and decide what we want for cablevision. It's not going to accommodate out of towners. I'm asking you to please deny this application. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I think it works out better that if we go from this side of the room. Let's start, we'll go with Freddie please, and then we'll move over to the center and then over to the easterly side. FREDDIE WACHSBERGER: Freddie Wachsberger from Orient. Once again this board is faced with a decision thai will impaet very crucially on the future of Southold. Federal re~lations put a serious burden on towns and muhieipalities to Page.29 - Bell-Atlantic/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals accommodate a potential proliferation of communication towers. One of the Federal stipulations, as was expressed tonight, is that there be no discrimination among providers. Therefore, ff this tower were to be permitted in this agricultural, residential area, it would be ff I understand the legislation correctly, virtuaily impossible for the town to deny access for other 100 foot towers, or 82 foot towers, in similar agricultural residential areas. Towns and municipalities all over the country have objected to the intrusion of these towers on residentiai areas. In fact, there was a major national conference on the problem last year, which produced guidelines for locai zoning solutions. The Federal Government has responded to the desire to protect the residential communities, by making federal property available for the placement of wireless communication towers and equipment. The FCC encourages utilization of towers, by more than one carrier. As a matter of fact, the FCC guidelines, this is 1.1306 note A: It says the use of existing buildings, towers or corridors is an environmentaily desirable alternative to the construction of new facilities that is to be encouraged. If the AT&T, the AT&T tower is carrying adequately perhaps Nynexwould want to go on board with that, rather than build a separate tower. At the last hearing on this application, presently before this board, the applicant referred to the fact, that there are aiready telephone poles. Well, nobody is happy with those. In fact communities and municipalities today have the foresightand ability to insist on underground wires. Half the towns have the opportunity to anticipate and control the siting of towers. That opportunity must not be lost. Towns and municipalities everywhere are ceiling for moratoriums for the purpose of addressing this issue. Clearly, the present application should not be considered any other application for cellular tower, until the Town Board has taken the opportunity to develop a town wide zoning solution, as is the town's right and its responaibility. But, as it is before this board tonight, I would like to address the implications of this petition for Orient. In an article in the New Yorker in 1989 about preserving a sense of place, which in fact contained many references to the North Fork, and you might have read it. Tony Hiss .quoted significant observation, worth paying close attention to. People start to discount a landscape and lose their sense of connectedness to it. As soon as even a few blemishes crop up. The Chairman of the New York City Audubon Society Conservation Committee has even come up with a rough mathematical formula to measure land preservation. The first 5% of development in a countryside region, generally does 50% of the damage. In terms of altering people's mental geography of area; and the second 5% of development enlarges this damage to another 50%. I believe that the tower proposed by the applicant would have at least as radical an effect. Page 30 - Bell-Atlantl~/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals The people of Orient and the other Southold Town villages and Hamlets, have a very strong sense of place. The people who choose to live here and the tourists who choose to come to visit are drawn by the rural historic landscape. Not because it reminds us of an earlier time, but because it still is a humane landscape in which to live, and it is very fragile. The value of homes in our area and the attraction of our tour4sts to our area depend on the preservation of this fragile sense of place. Orient is a narrow strip of land with fewer than 600 mailboxes. The applicant at the last hearing refused to substantLate the origin or number of complaints about inadequate reception in Orient, saying that it was confidential information. I would have thought that it would have been the limit the beard might require for demonstration of a need for this tower. I know that those I know in Orient who use a cellular phone say that it works fine. But even if there were an nano-second during which a driver passing through on the way to the ferry were to experience a momentary loss of service and that hasn't been proven, would that be adequate reason to destroy the value of people's homes? Would it be adequate reason to destroy the experience of historic landscape, including a Natural Historic District to which this site is virtually adjacent? Does that make sense to anybody? The government regulations are sensitive to this issue. Article 1.1307 of the Federal Communications Commission Regulations addresses actions to which environmental assessments must be prepared. Under sub-numeral 4R, facilities that may affect district sites, building structures or objects significant in American History, Architecture, Archeology, Engineering or Culture, that are listed or are eligible for listing in the Natural Register for Historic places. "That may affect districts" is the wording, not that are "in districts." The RN Association will submit to the board the written petition as for Article 1.1307C documenting the necessity for environmental review. But there should be no need for the applicant to prepare an environmental assessment on the site. Rather, the application should be rejected immediately. The Board I feel has excellent reasons for rejection. The small population of Orient and its proximity to the existing tower in Greenport. The potential severe negative impact on the value of homes, not only those immediately adjacent, but in the whole area, and the proximity of the tower to the Natural Historic District, and the Historic Road, and the Kings Highway, with its 18 and 19 Century homes, all of which would be dwarfed and diminished. The negative impact would fall on second home and residential values and on tourism, both essential elements of Southold Town's economy. I ask you to preserve our sense of place by rejecting this proposal~ and I thank you for your patience. Pa~ge 31 - Bell-Atlant~e~/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I was just going to ask you for that. Thank you so much. OK, Mr. Gillooly? MR. WILLIAM GILLOOLY: Thank you. My name is Bill Gilloolyand I live in Orient. As I understand it, I wasn't going to speak either but, part of the application is based on the Federal Communication Commission's insistence, that there be a seamless service. I think Jimmy's questions were very, very important. I'm confused. Metro One and Cellular One. Metro One became -. CHAIRMAN: Cellular One. MR. WILLIAM GILLOOLY: Cellular, well there were two. What were the two five or six years ago? CHAIRMAN: Nynex and Cellular One, and Metro One. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Metro Cellular. MR. GAZZO: The board wants me to respond, I'll respond. CHAIRMAN: Respond, please, Mr. Gazzo respond. MR. PACHMAN: The question, there were two sites, there's a Cellular One site which is AT&T (interrupted). MR. WILLIAM GILLOOLY: Excuse me. I just wondered. No, about six years ago, there were two cellular services in the area. One was called Metro One as I remember. MR. GAZZO: Cellular One or Metro One, and the other one was Nynex. MR. WILLIAM GILLOOLY: OK,. Nynex is still Nynex, and Metro One is -. MR. GAZZO: No Nynex is now, Bell Atiantic Nynex Mobile Communication; and AT&T does business under Metro One/Cell One Wireless. MR. WILLIAM GILLOOLY: Well ok. CHAIRMAN: I think AT&T wireless bought Cellniar One. Is that correct? MR. GAZZO: Yes. MATTHEW PACHMAN: Cellular Communications Company d/b/a Metro One, which is now AT&T wireless. CHAIRMAN: Wireless, right. Pa'go 32 - Bell-Atlan~c'~NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing hold 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. WILLIAM GILLOOLY: The reason I say Jim's comments wore important is this. Two cellular, as I understand it, two cellular companies are chartered to do business in this area. Six years ago, I negotiated contracts with two separate cellular companies for placement of their antennas and auxiliary b~dldings attheGreenport Water Tower site. They wore ten year leases - this goos back six years ago, with ten year options at that point, and my understanding at that point talking to the engineers was that the cellular pattern from the Greenport tower, being, I think it was about 89 foot or something~ the antenna reflects that- would encompass a five to eight mile diameter. In other words, thoro would be, excuse me, my geometry isn't good - the circle would be 10 to 16 milos around, and at that point, hey said with the advanced technology, this will be all you'll need, to cover this portion of the ( ) i may have changed, but I think your comments, based on the fact that I think those antennas are still there, since they're paying I think, about $3,000.00 a month each to the Village of Greenport, would mean that the adequate service six years ago was there, and I don't know what's changed in the last Six years but the bottom Hne was that they felt that that for ten (10) years, and for aIlother ten years after that on the renewal of the lease, that they would cover the area from Orient Point, well into Southold, with those two antennas, and I don't know what has changed since then, but I think Jimmy's information is important. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Bill. Over here, thank you. We have two people getting up. Do you want to yield? Just state your name for the record? MR. WALTER MILLIS: My name if Walter Millis. I am a resident of Orient. I echo Freddie Wachsberger'seloquent comments on the state of the landscape, on the state of tho sky line ~n Orient which would be damaged irretrievably, it seems to me by an 80 foot tower. I have a cellular telephone. It works just fine. I haven't had any problem with it at all. It is AT&T's, not Nynex's and I would suggest that perhaps the answer to that problem is if you have a Nynex phone and it In any case, it's born on me that in the next fews years, technology will move along to the point that this tower won't be necessary anyway, and I would hope the board would turn this down, both on appearance grounds and the fact that it really isn't necessary. Thank you. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Sir. Mr. Latham? MR. JIM LATHAM: I'm the adjoining property owner runhing along Platt Road. Also, a 10-1/~ acre acre parcel, and I'm opposed to the tower. I've prepared a petition signed by 86 people of Orient opposed to the change in zoning, which I'd like to submit to the board. CHAIRMAN: Sure. Page 33 - Bell-Atlant~e//NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. JIM LATHAM: I don't know all the ins and outs. I came a little late so I missed the discrimination part about their particular tower. But it seems to me, that possibly the spirit of the Federal Communications Law is that people in the United States have access to cellular service, not necessarily, that we have to have thousands of companies with cellular services, and if there is service, that would seem to, we talked about a place, a small place with 10 houses, they should have telephone service, and that's fine. If there is cellular service, I think that's more important, than that there be thousands of cellular people, cellular providers. I,d like to ask, I haven't been to too many of these meetings. My father is on the Planning Board, and he says sometimes there are a lotof people in the room. There's probably little doubt as to the spirit of these people, for or against, but I'd like to ask everyone in the room that is opposed to this tower to raise their hand? Thank you. CHAIRMAN: Does that mean it's going to be a long evening? MR. WALTER MILLIS: I'd just like to ask the board to do the right thing, for the residents of Orient, the Town of Southold, and deny this application in this particular location; Thank you. CHAIRMAN: We're doing it this way,' unless you have to leave early (referring to the sign in sheet). MS. MADIGAN: We'd like to sign it. CHAIRMAN: Oh, you'd like to sign it, ok. I also, I'm missing the list of the people names that are speaking. MS. MADIGAN: I have it right here. CHAIRMAN: Oh good, you're going to give it to us soon, when you're going to get up and speak. MS. MADIGAN: All right. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Are there two lists going around? CHAIRMAN: I think there's one (list). OK, I think we've migrated to you Mrs. Madigan. Did you want to speak? MRS. MADIGAN: This is not necessarily in order of names given to you. CHAIRMAN: No problem. Thank you. MRS. MADIGAN: My name is Susan Madigan. I have a prepared statement that I'll give. I'm president of the Orient Association. As we previously stated at the ZBA hearing on January 16th, we are strongly opposed to the proposed eellular P~ge 34 - Bell-Atlanii~7'NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals tower on the Residential-Agricultural property in Orient. The need for such a tower in Orient has not been proven. We're reiterating what everybody else said here. We propose an alternative site for such a tower: Plum Island. Jean Cochran, the Supervisor and I have been communicating with Michael Forbes, our representative in Congress, and he's been investigating using Plum Island for this tower. The Telecommunications Act of 1996, Section 704, mandates the Federal Government to make available property, right of ways, easements under control, for the placement of such communications towers. We have contacted the General Service Administration, and are pursuing this matter vigorously with the help of Michael Forbes, and I think Jean Cochran has correspondence from him too. We requested that the Town Board would place a moratorium on the construction of communication towers to study the zoning restrictions on these structures. I wonid like to read you a newspaper article from the Star Telegram in Fort Worth, Texas, dated March 14, 1997. Fort Worth, the City Council members said yesterday, thai they are ilkely to place a 30-day moratorium on the construction of the communication towers, while they are debating zoning restrictions on where the structures can be built. Restrictions have been adopted in Arlington, Bedfordand Benbrook, and Irving, among other cities. Transmission towers are telecommunication relay stations that have mnitiplied by the growing popniarity of cellular phones and pages. Councilwomen Becky Haskin said she fears that the towers which often reach more than 100 feet skyward may impede air traffic from municipal airports and training centers. We have had a dramatic increase in the number of applications for towers, Ms. Haskin said, and we're going to be impacted both from the residentiai and the business community prospectives. Last night council meeting, neighborhood representatives called for a ban on towers in residential areas, parks and school grounds. They are such an eye sore in the community said Mrs. Morris, Vice-President of the Government Affairs for Fort Worth League of Neighborhoods. The Council is scheduled to vote on a moratorium Tuesday. The members said they wilt plan to discuss the zoning guideline for the towers April 1st. The Orient Association plans to make a formal request to the town board meeting to propose a moratorium in order for the Town to develop a Town-wide zoning solution. At the last ZBA hearing, the real estate consultant, testified that such towers would not have a negative effect on the properties in the district. I'm a real estate broker in this area, and I own a home in Orient. I know whereof I speak. There will be a distinct negative impact on property values in Orient. The examples that were used are not comparable to Orient. The agriculture, historic landscape is unique here, and a cellular tower is totally out of place in our community. Real estate values would plummet, and residential properties would Page 35 - Bell-Atlant~eTNYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals seriously decline in value. There is an article in Newsweek, this past week of March 14, which Wilbur Smith will put into the record which will also substantiate my point here. Several weeks ago I sent you a report, which I think you all got a copy of it. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we thank you very much for it, by the way. MS. SUSAN MADIGAN: A law firm in Michigan said, municipal concerns and interests in personal communications services. I'm not sure if you've had time to read it. It's very long, I know, but it is for, the good point that I've stated here. We ask you to reject this proposal, potential negative impact in Orient, on real estate values, tourism, farming are the reasons for people to live out here. We must look at the future, and the responsibility of preserving the quality of life on the North Fork that in your hands. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN: That's what we need (referring to list of names returned to the Chairman). Thank you so much. MS. SUSAN MADIGAN: Do you want a copy of my report, and you have that. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MS. SUSAN MADIGAN: Do you want more of the moratorium thing. CHAIRMAN: Sure. Ok, I think we've gotten to the first two rows, toward the middle here. Who else would like to speak? Yes, Bob. MR. ROBERT HICKS: Yes. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Bob. How are you tonight? MR. ROBERT HICKS: I have prepared many notes here, much of which has been covered and I don't wish to be redundant. However, I did, I believe here at the last meeting that we had, that the areas in Orient that were solicited for the towers, were beyond what they now have drawn in black on a scale I thought, if I'm not mistaken, that the ferry terminal was asked if they would be interested, and I believed at that time, they said no. If that be the case then, this moves the tower further away the target area, and almost in reach of Plum Island. So, I did want to bring that point up, and state that somehow or other, again if I'm not mistaken, that the target area has been narrowed, since the last, not since the last meeting, but from what the (changed tape to tape 2, side A). e 36 - Bell-Atlant~C~/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. ROBERT HICKS: I agree with all that has been said, and I would ask the board to give serious consideration for denial. Thank you. CHAIRMAN: Over here, the gentleman in the middle was really first. Yes, Sir. I apologize, I hate to point at people. How are you tonight? MR. JOHN RIEGER: My name is John Rieger. I live on Willow Terrace in Orient. The point I'd like to clear up. I understand that some subscribers to Nynex/Bell Atlantic have problems on the road, going to the ferry or somewhere in Orient. There are blank spots. I have two hand-held radios, transceivers, really they're hand transceivers, and if I tried to operate from my car, I will have trouble. But, if I have an antenna outside, I have no trouble. I can hit Riverhead with no problem at all. My point is this, that if Nynexwould educate their users, their hand-held radios, or hand held transceivers to have an outside antenna, remember - with that little antenna that's on that radio, there inside a shield inside the car. It's shielded, and they will not get through unless they're right on top of the transmitter, that transceiver. That's the point I'd like to make. If they would only educate their people. You have to have equipment to be able to reach us, and what are we talking about, $25.00? If they can afford a cellular telephone, they can afford $25.00 for a little antenna about so long. It looks like a little spring in the center tuned to that frequency, and they'll have no problems. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. MR. JOHN RIEGER: Thank you. MR. WALTER SMITH: It seems that I spend my life up here. I just want to say a few words. CHAIRMAN: Could you just state your name for the record? Thank you. MR. WALTER SMITH: Walter Smith of Orient. At the last meeting we were told, that the price of houses would not be affected by this antenna. Now, we all remember DDT and Asbestos. I don't know how many meetings I sat through, where the experts said, these were no problems. Of course now, they're both banned. The interesting thing, if you have a child, to a young person, or married couple with children, to them, a tower is a tower, is a tower. It makes no difference if it's an electric tower or a microwave tower. So, in the NewsdayMarch 14th, this year, they have a little article. "They are the kiss of death. We've seen housed with electric power, in the back yards sell as much as 25% less than houses without a tower. Couples with young children are Page 37 - Bell-Arian cTNYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals afraid to live near towers because of the perception, whether proven or not that they are health hazards. This is something that you have to remember. The average person has very little way~ in the background in Science, particularly toxicology, and the emotion takes over. When they see a tower, they think of only one thing. It's going to harm their children, and they're not going to buy it, and that's going to reduce the prices. That's all I want to say, except perhaps, the only reason Nynexis applying for this is because they want greater profits. But, that's the American way, greater profits - but don't crucify the people of Southotd on the cost of gold. Thank you. CHAIRMAN: We finally got to you, we're sorry. MS. ANNE MACKAY: My name is Anne Mackay. I live in Orient. Nynex has not been our friend over the years, although we use it and spent great money on it. We have telephone poles, which break in with ears and with storms. We're out of service of all kind at that time. We begged that they get put underground as the new technology suggests, and they say "Oh~ it's too expensive." And we know perfectly well that if this tower is allowed that the new technology which always comes in 10 years or so could replace that tower, and they said "Oh no, it's too expensive to put down." We have to leave it the way it is. We put a million dollars into it. It's not going to go away. I beg you please to deny this application. CHAIRMAN: Again I apologize for pointing. MR. COLIN STEVENS: My name is Colin Stevens of Cricket. First of all I think, Counselor, I think you did a very good job. HOWARD PACHMAN ES(~: Thank you very much. MR. COLIN STEVENS: I think you checkmated the Town, everyone has a very good point. I ti~ink legally it proves you're going to be in the right. As a taxpayer the only thing I ask before this site is finalized that the board uses its influence on the Fire Department and the Association. Maybe go back to the Fire Department and locate the antenna there. I'd just as soon have a tax break if it's going to be shoved down my throat, so. That's about all ! can say. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Anybody else? Yes, Mr. Price, please wait just a second. We'll go with this nice lady over here. Good evening. MS. CYNTHIA VEER: Good evening. My name is Cynthia Veer, resident of Orient. I'm not skilled in the technology of this in any way or in legal aspects. I'd like to speak as a Historian which is my profession and to say something about Page 38 - Bell-AtlanticTNYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southald Town Board of Appeals using the argument of precedent, what you've done in Elijah's Lane or what you've done somewhere else and that therefore a precedent is established, which you have a need and a constriction to adhere to. CHAIRMAN: I just want to say, that's their opinion. We don't believe that there's -. MS. CYNTHIA VEER: No, I'm referring to the opinion of counsel. I would like to, from a Historian point of view~ to make a strong objection to that. For example, had the people of the Middle Ages looked to the future a little bit, they might have seem the possibility of controlling rats; which might have not wiped out a tremendous portion of the population of Europe, at one point in the 14th Century. So, I would like to make an argument~ a strong argument based on what one knows about progress, and what one can, with some kind of careful consideration, predict about the future. There has been a great deal of discussion about the proliferation of towers of this sort. I see down the future, which is part of my business to look ahead down to the future as welt as back down the past, and I see the quality of our life eroding, more and more rapidly as time goes by, ff we don't face and lick this problem now. I urge you to reject this application. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Price? I just wanted to say, Mr. Price, that we will like to conclude this hearing-this second portion of this hearing in about 15 minutes. MR. GORDON PRICE: OK, I'li be very brief. Can you hear me now. Gordon Price, Orient. In fact, my house is the one most affected by the tower, which my property line is 100 feet of the proposed radius of the tower. So, naturally I am more than a little concerned. In fact, I'm very frightened frankly. I feel incredibly impotent, in the fact that I have to be here in the first place because of the resident bordering a zone of RS0, which is residential, agricultural zoning, I can't believe that there is even a thought, thai anyone could do anything like this, by changing the laws which are in essence protecting us, the residents, taxpayers, this is for our benefit, for all of our benefit. Not only from a historical value, but from a historical point of view but from a individual point of view. Not to mention the fact that it's a financial- potentially a financial disaster, for all the residents within the immediate area - Not only from a historical point of view, but me, last time on January 18th, Nynex had a so-called real estate expert to testify that there would be no significant drop in real estate valuation because of the erection of the tower. They sited places in Massapequa or wherever or down Island or somewhere. This is not Patchogueor Massapequa. This is Orient, a 300 year old community with incredible sense of its own history, and we want to keep it that way. Not just for me and my little house, which is an 18 Century, ]gth Century house, but for the whole community. l~ge 39 - Bell-Atlan~ff/NYNEX · TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/9~ Southold Town Board of Appeals If, for instance, it was mentioned tonight that in the auxiliary building, in an accessory building, there would be a generator, and it wouldn't make much noise. I don't know what the word was, justified - "ambient" noise, which is in the area, how far I'm not sure. However, I live within 200 yards of the Oyster Ponds Old Folks Home. They have an emergency generator which from 200 yards away, I can hear it distinctly. Now, if this is put in, it certainly would have an effect on me. I don't even want to try to think about the fact that it might not. Also, there was a mention of the Cutchogue site and the fact that we've seen photographs of that. I took some myself. This isn't such a bad deal but if anyone has been down there, they will see that this is right by the Dump. If the same thing is put in my area, into our area~ it certainly would begin to look that way. Anyway, I'm not as agitated as the last time around. So, I will conclude that I hope that you will deny the right to have this tower put up. Thank you. CHAIRMAN: Going back to Mr. Pachman. Mr. Pachman, you're going to. answer us? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Does that conclude the people speaking? CHAIRMAN: I don't know. ok. You are going to answer us on the question - . HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: On the Dinizio question or your question? CHAIRMAN: On my question. Ok. Now remember that, in some way you have to placate me on my question, ok. I'm going to go at the request of Mr. Peluso, I'm going to go to his house, and meet him at his house. I'm going to use his telephone if he allows me to, and if he tells me he's Bell Atlantic Nynex, ok. MR. PELUSO: My phone goes off my house. CHAIRMAN: OK MR. PELUSO: I'll use my mobile phone. CHAIRMAN: OK. I'm going to go to your house, at your request if that's all right with you. I'm going to meet you there. MR. PELUSO: I'm going to be there. CHAIRMAN: Right, I'm going to do that at the end of the meeting. But, at the same time~ I feel strange about using someone else's phone. I would be very happy to ride around with any technician that you have. All right? Page 40 - Bell-Atlantf~i/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: As I said to you, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to say yes. I don't want to say no. CHAIRMAN: Sure. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I want to take it under advise- ment, and I will respond to you in writing. CHAIRMAN: Right, ok. I am suggesting that we conclude this hearing, ok, on April 24th. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Excuse me? CHAIRMAN: I am suggesting that we conehide this hearing, after our findings on April 24th, and then. What's the problem? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Well, I don't know what other informaon, we're going to need. This is it. Why can't we conclude the hearing subject to the issue that we are going to submit, and get this thing moving. We've already gone three months into this thing, by putting it over another month is unfair to the applicant. CHAIRMAN: I understand that. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Excuse me,Sir, I'm not finished. CHAIRMAN: Yes. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: You're not moving with all deliberate speed. You're moving with all deliberate delay if we continue to do this. We want a conclusion. CHAIRMAN: It has now gotten to the point of our own testing, all right, and that's where we are concluding. I will conclude the hearing for, very simply, the basic area that we have found, during our testing period, and I will not take any substantialverbai testimony or oral testimony from anyone, ok, unless there is something that is of gU3eat significance that we have found. Is that all right with you? MEMBER TORTORA: I'm trying to figure out what you mean by that. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I don't understand. CHAIRMAN: I want to conclude the hearing in 45 minutes. I want to get it done. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Right. CHAIRMAN: OK, that's it. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Right. Page 41 - Bell-Atlant~b-~NYNEX -' TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: I want to finish it on April 24, and that's it. I want to get it done, I want it over at that point, all right. CHAIRMAN: I want to conclude with the information we have selected. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I'm trying to get some ground rules. I'm not so sure that I, as the applicant's Attorney, fully appreciate what you're saying, and maybe if-. What I'm suggesting, and maybe you're saying is the same thing, and maybe we should just verbalize it. we close the hearing tonight, subject to your determination what you want to find out, presumably by (unfinished sentence). CHAIRMAN: I can't do that, Howard, because I don't know what I'm going to find out and I have no idea what else is going to come in that you may want to reflect on. We may get information from someone else in the public, and we are not going to be able to reflect on that. That's the reason why. OWe're constantly getting letters on a daily basis. So if I could - (unfinished sentence) HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Presumably if, hypothetically, if we waited a year, there may be letters that will come six months from now. CHAIRMAN: But that's not the point. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: But that's, that's (unfinished sentence). CHAIRMAN: The point is, that every hearing, every hearing generates letters ok. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Of course if you pursue it, and let it go ad infinitum and possibly at nauseum, then it will never end and you won't come to a conclusion. CHAIRMAN: The problem I have tonight is, I don't know where Bell Atlantic Nynex is bouncing off of. I Still haven't understood that. I mean, is it bouncing off the Greenport antenna? Is is bouncing off the South Shore antenna? Is it bouncing off a Connecticut antenna? I don't know~ all right, and that's what I have to understand. MEMBER TORTORA: Can I add something? CHAIRMAN: Yes. MEMBER TORTORA: I think the issue that has kind of baffled us, Mr. Pachman. CHAIRMAN: Just speak on a one~ two, three, because I'm trying to get, we're trying to get this down right. P~ge 42 - Bell-Atlant{~/NyNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER TORTORA: Mr. Pachman. We haven't been ( ) about this, but after listening to you and some of the board members, and listening to the people in the community, I think the thing we're kind of deadlocked here is that you know you are a public utility, and as such your claiming certain accommodations under that issue, and yet we haven't established necessity. At the same time, you're telling us that we cannot access that information from you. You're nol giving us anything, other than your experts to go by. You're saying, your records are closed. We cannot access those, that's policy. So, what we're saying is, please help us make that decision, because aiotof people in this community have said, "we don't have a problem with the service." So, who are we to believe. How are we going to come to a determination, if your records are closed to us. That's the kind of a predicament that I think Mr. Dinizio has articulated in one way or another, and Jim and I am in right now. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Well. MEMBER TORTORA: So that's, maybe you could help us. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I've spent alot of time hopefully presenting this application, with the view of putting before this board evidence which would help you in making your decision. I find myself somewhat with a m~xed feeling here. I know that whatever I have giving to you is adequate for the record. You have raised questions which I do respectfully believe are out of your zone of interest and concern. CHAIRMAN: I disagree. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Well I understand but what I was trying to say is that I heard your question before, and I said I wanted to reserve myself by not saying yes or no. CHAIRMAN: I understand. I was only. restating that. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I understand that. And I said this does not have to be continued beyond tonight to give you that information. That's what I'm suggesting to you. CHAIRMAN: But how do I disperse that information? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Disperse it to whom? CHAIRMAN: To the public. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: You only have to disperse it to this board. CHAIRMAN; No I (unfinished sentence). HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: That's the mistake you're making. Page 43 - Bell-Atlantfe'/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: It's not a mistake. Mr. Paehman, this is Southold, We tell everybody everything. CHAIRMAN: Every one of these people have a right to eome in and review the record, and they will review the record. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I never suggested that they can't review the record. CHAIRMAN: Well, if the record is sealed, when do we know when you're going to send it? By April 24th we know that your determination of what you're going to tell us tonight is going to be in the record, all right. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Ail right? CHAIRMAN: They then have the right to review 'that record. We will then hold off at least two weeks for a decision to allow them to review the record. So~ they know the way you have reacted to the suggestions that we have requested from you. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I say this to you. CHAIRMAN: You know, I hate to say this to you. It's a planning process. HOWARD PACHMAN, ESQ: No, no. I say this with all due deference. I've been before this board before. CHAIRMAN: Right. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And I respect it, I respect its intelligence, I respect the intelligence of its members, and I respect the audience here, too, contrary to what they think. But I'm also a student of this zoning process. I've spent 45 years of my life doing this kind of work, and I'm not trying to substitutemy knowledge and my experience, because I'm not your attorney, in telling you that what I think the road your pursuing is a wrong path. But I'm not going to be able to change you from doing it. What I've suggested to you, that I will once again research in my mind what we think is appropriate and if we can answer those questions, we will answer those questions. I think possibly, if I think you are going in that wrong path, I may give you citation, chapter and verse where you're wrong. CHAIRMAN: No problem, but you have to understand also that you are going to modify this application, all right, by changing the distances. You have riot even done that tonight, all right? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: You make amendments all the time in the course of a hearing. l~age 44 - Bell-AtlantiS'/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: But that's not (unfinished sentence). HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: People that are interested are here, and what we have done is gone further away from the application. We haven't expanded, we haven't changed what our relief is. All we've said, we've come in and because Ms. Tortorahas said the possibility of this, we will do one thing up: we will move it another 100 feet to accommodate this board. It's an accommodation to this board. CHAIRMAN: But when are you going to do that Sir, because (unfinished sentence)? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I will go after this meeting, and I thought I was told to do it, and I (unfinished sentence). I can amend it verbally. It's on the record, and you can now except it. CHAIRMAN: You're absolutely correct. You're absolutely correct. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And I so do it. Ok. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Mr. Pachman, is that 80,000 square feet with that amendment? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Excuse me? SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Is that 80,000 square feet with that amendment? CHAIRMAN: We haven't gotten to that yet. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: We haven't gotten to that, and I don't think that's the necessary condition~ Mrs. Kowalski. I'm saying that for this application, I respectfully amend my application so that the distance rather than 265 feet, with 100 feet is 365 feet, and all the accessory buildings and everything will be moved proportionally to that area. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: On 4400 square foot of land area ? HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Yes, the same thing. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: And not on the map you gave us - you gave us a subdivision, map, that showed 80,000 square feet. So, that's not the map you're going to use. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: No. I gave you thai map, not for the purpos - you asked for a copy of it. CHAIRMAN: Right. l~ag~e 45 - Beli-Atlant{~/NYNEX ' TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeais SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Yes. HOWARD PACHMAN: I just showed you thai potential. I don't think tl~is board (unfinished sentence). CHAIRMAN: That's where it lies in the middle of Lot #2. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: That's right, so if there was going to~ be a subdivision at some future date, and it was still 80,000 square feet, by putting it at that location, we would not impinge upon the effectiveness of developing this site, for five lots. CHAIRMAN: Right. Could ~ve (unfinished sentence). HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: So, I would respectfully at this time, make the application on behalf of my board, my applicant, to amend the setback of the tower and the accessory structure 100 feet to the south, so that ii will be 365 feet and everything would be moved proportionally. CHAIRMAN: OK. We have some questions in the audience. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Can I have my application? Can we act on it? I'm already making an amendment. CHAIRMAN: I don't care what you want. It doesn't bother me one bit. That's fine. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Are you accepting the amendment? CHAIRMAN: Sure. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Oh, OK. MEMBER TORTORA: Wait, wait wait. CHAIRMAN: I'm accepting the amendment that you (interrupted). MEMBER TORTORA: Amended application, this isn't an amended proposal, correct? CHAIRMAN: No, there's no code in the amendment, so all he's doing is moving. I don't care where he moves it. MEMBER TORTORA: That's what his proposal is. CHAIRMAN: I don't care where he moves it to. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: He's accepting the application for the amendment. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Ok, all right. ~age 46 - Bell-Atlan~]NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: Mr. Peluso? MR. Peluso: I'm confused here. As far as his, where he wants to put this tower. I'm of the understanding right now, that he's going to go for a subdivision. CHAIRMAN: No. MR. Peluso: No, he doesn't need a subdivision? CHAIRMAN: No, he's not going for a subdivision. Ail he's doing is moving it more into the property, Mr. l>eluso. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Can I look at that site plan again, so I can - ? SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: No, Jerry has the map. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Jerry has it. Right now the application, right now the setback is 165. We're going to move it 100 feet, to 265. CHAIRMAN: OK. HOWARD PACHMAN,ESQ: 165 now, that's 165. Everything the same except this becomes 265, (inaudible). Ok? You understand? CHAIRMAN: Right. Good. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: That's the application, right there. CHAIRMAN: Could you just re-state for the audience what you're doing? MEMBER TORTORA: 165, 240. L~t's go with the numbers while we ( ) because I wrote them down. Before you had said, you're 165 now. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Right. MEMBER TORTORA: And what you propose was to go back 240-and (unfiniShed sentence). HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: No, another 100 feet which would make it 265 feet in total. Look at this, Ms. Tortora. MEMBER TORTORA: Yes, I have that. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: So, that would became 265, so that would move everything back 100 feet proportionally. I only showed you this diagram here for the sole purpose of showing if there was a proposed subdivision in the future, this would ~ ~/NyNEX Page 47 - Bell-Atlant TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals not impact upon a lot, and therefore you have a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. That was the only purpose that that was given. But for no other. Information purposes only. CHAIRMAN: Information purposes only, ok HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Now, you've given me cause. Before you visit with Mr. Peluso, no matter how gracious he is to allow you to go to his house and use his ( ). I would think that that probably is inappropriate and imloroper~ and before you do that, I would like to answer that in my letter to you when I make my response. CHAIRMAN: OK, and we'll discuss that with the Town Attorney. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: OK. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Price? GORDON PRICE: Thank you (interrupted). GORDON PRICE: Mr. Pachman, you've been talking a long time? I just want to ask Mr. Pachman as a representative of Nynex~o hear what's going on. What you're doing is bringing up two sites, or one site really, which is behind my house. You've mentioned the fire house. Now Nynex, we're all customers and most of us are customers of your company. Now, can't you hear what we're trying to say to you? That we don't want your tower here. Now, and you have been zeroed in, in cement. On this one site and one other you have given no indication that you are willing to even listen to us as a community, to change your location some way, or to a least attempt in a different way than you address it. So, I'm just asking you, maybe you could solve all of this problem without going back and forth with this legal boloney, by saying listen, we really want to help you guys here in Orient too. We haven't heard a thing about that. We just saw the blueprints up there, and I'm just asking you to go back to your company and ask if there is some other solution to this whole number? Thank you. (Changed at this time to Tape 2, Side B. HOWARD PACHMAN, ESQ: I would suggest that since you have told me that everything we've sub,fitted is open to this public, and they have an opportunity to review it, that they review the minutes of the last meeting because if they would review the minutes of the last meeting, which is January 16, 1997, and refresh their recollections, we have said that we tried to meet with the Orient Association. In fact,' we met with Ms. Madigan and some other representatives of the Association. We have solicited the Fire Department. We went to 10 other sites. ~age 48 - Bell-Atlanti~/NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals We gave you ten other sites, that we had (interrupted by Mr. Peluso). MR. PELUSO: Did you go to Plum Island? CHAIRMAN: Shush. Go ahead Mr. Pachman. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And (interrupted a third time). CHAIRMAN: Mr. Peluso, you have to stop. Excuse me, Mr. Paehman, I apologize. HOWARD PACHMAN, ESQ: No ~ you shouldn't have to apologize. Thank you. The sites that we suggested in our presentation which are there. CHAIRMAN: Right. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: Again the testimony of Mr. Gazzo on the 16th. The affidavit, which I submitted to you. All the thoughts that this group would like to move this site to Plum Island, ali the evidence that is required in the FCC regulations which says, try to use those facilities. I acknowledge that. But if that particular site is available to the company that wants to set up the cellular site, if that falls within the agreement, you just can't take Plum Island, because it's there, and it's a Federal site. That doesn't make it go, or useable for our needs. I wish it was, but it doesn't work, Our engineers have looked at it several times. CHAIRMAN: You did say that. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: I understand, so constantly bringing it up again is not going to change it. It's not going to make it work. So I do say, we did try to look at other sites. CHAIRMAN: Right. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: We have not tried to ignore the group. We tried to meet with them. CHAIRMAN: OK. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: And in fairness to us, please acknowledge that that is the ease. CHAIRMAN: Right. Hearing no further comment, I'll make a motion recessing this until the last hearing of April 24th. HOWARD PACHMAN ESQ: What date? CHAIRMAN: April 24th. Last hearing. ~e 49 - Bell-Atlant{d~NYNEX TRANSCRIPT Public Hearing held 3/19/97 Southold Town Board of Appeals SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Could I have a second on that motion please? CHAIRMAN: AH in favor. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Could I have a second? Could I have a second on that motion? MEMBER DOYEN: Second. CHAIRMAN: All in favor: a few ayes. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Wait, I didn't get a vote on it yet. Member Dinizio ? MEMBER DINIZIO: No SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Member Doyen. You're voting yes on this motion? CHAIRMAN: He's seconded it. SECRETARY LINDA KOWALSKI: Well, that not an automatic yes. Are you voting yes? (Member Doyen nodded affirmatively). · Resolution adopted. Proofread and finalized by ZBA office on 4/22/97. ZBA: lk .... AND FILED 'BY Town Ci ..... Toyota ~ ~ --,.x ~