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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-01/16/1997 HEARING TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING JANUARY 18, 1997 SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS Prepared by L. Kowalski 7:08 - 7:18 p.m. Appl. ~4445: Application of MARY TANGNEY for a Variance based upon the March 20, 1996 'Action of Disapproval by the Building Inspector, as per Article III, Section 100-32 for the proposed insufficient lot area in the prbposed set-off of lot situated along a private right-of-way extending from Little Neck Road, Cutcho~ue; County- Parcel #1000-103-5-2.1. The parcel as exists contains 143,020 sq. ft. of land area. Proposed are two lots, one of 40,191 sq. ft. and the other 102,820+- sq. ft. in this R-80 Residential Zone District. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have a copy- of a survey which is really a site plan type of survey indicating the two lots, the house lot being 40,191 and the vacant lot being 102,829. And I have a copy- of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Mrs. Tangney, how are you tonight? MRS. TANGNEY: Fine thank you. CHAIRMAN: Is there anything you would like to state for the record? MRS. TANGNEY: It is too large for us now, the children have grown and we would like to have a house to build. CHAIRMAN: Ok. We have had some communications from the Planning Board that kind of went around and around through the newspaper, and it was brought to our attention that the Planning Board - that no application for a subdivision was made to the Planning Board by you which is part of the Notice of Disapproval. Don't be concerned, ok. This is not a problem, ok. But they would rather see the lots divided equally. Now I don't know how they are planning to divide them equally so we will discuss that in a minute, ok. But let me just go through the roster and we'll, please don't get too concerned about it - we'll work it out one way or another. (Member Tortora mentioned there were drawings there.) CHAIRMAN: Mr. Villa, would you like to say anything? MEMBER VILLA: Well basically I had the same concern a little bit about the size of the lot. You certainly have enough for two Page 2 - January Southold Town Board of Appeals Transcript of Public Hearing lots, it's just a matter of how it's divided, so, and if they have concerns about it, if they can be resolved ' I don't have a problem with it. CHAIRMAN: Ok. Mrs. Tortora? MEMBER TORTORA: Just that when I originally saw this plan last Spring it was for four lots, and then it has since been revised for two lots, and the lots in question you're proposing is 40,000 sq. ft. which is the variance you're requesting, and this is an R-80 Zone which requires 80,000 sq. ft., so I wanted how you came up with this particular proposal as opposed to dividing it more equally? MRS. TANGNEY: I'm going to ask my husband speak. CHAIRMAN: Sure. MR. TANGNE¥: Ok, what was the question? MEMBER TORTORA: Why is it that you chose to divide it by creating one 40,000 sq. ft. lot and one lot of 102,000 sq. ft. rather than more equally? MR. TANGNEY: As we go ( ) that property, go to, one time that property was a larger piece at that time, but she still likes her property. She likes to look out and take it ( ) keep as a larger lot for ourselves, built on that, and either sell it to my daughter or someone the house we live in now. We can stay- at a house in Southold and she would be happy and I would be happy. CHAIRMAN: Ok. Member Doyen? MEMBER DOYEN: No question. CHAIRMAN: Ok. Now getting back to the subdivision issue. The Notice of Disapproval that you got from the Building Inspector did indicate that you had to apply for a subdivision before the Planning Board. Rather than cause any I use the phrase "not unanimity" between the two boards, it would behoove you to make that application, let us hold this hearing in abeyance until such time, and see how they feel the property would rather be divided under their plan. And then you can come back to us and we can probably almost simultaneously can make the approvals. Do you have any objections to that, Mr. Tangney? Do you have any objection to that? MR. TANGNEY: Can you go through that again? Page 3 - January 16,~ ~'1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Transcript of Public Hearing CHAIRMAN: Yes, sure. If I had the blackboard in here, I would draw it for you, but you have two (interrupted). MR. TANGNEY: You want me to submit to the Planning Board for approval before the Board of Appeals - CHAIRMAN: No, I want you to apply to the Planning Board for a subdivision, which is what you have to continue to do any way. MR. TANGNEY: Ok, afte~ this - CHAIRMAN: Right. We are going to continue this. Wetre going to let this float until such time as you go to them and they input what they are looking for in reference to the equality of the two lots. Meaning the house lot and the l~egular lot. SECRETARY: Would you want to ask Mr. Tangney to come up to the dais closer and we can show him what you're talking about? CHAIRMAN: Sure. SECRETARY: Mr. Tangney, would you come up to the dias closer? (Mr. Tan~ney came up closer to the Board.) SECRETARY: The Planning Board was talking about drawing a line directly across from the old lot line that you did own at one time here, draw it straight across to make the lot the same size as the other lot. MR. TANGNEY: Fine. No problem with that. This had a 25 ft. right~of-way, I would have done that. But they were afraid that we might split that again in the back again. MEMBER TORTORA: At least we eould coordinate it with the Planning Board, and if you have objection, I think you would be more (interrupted). MR. TANGNEY: That would be fine. SECRETARY: I was told by Melissa, Planner with the Planning Board Office, that that is what they would prefer to accept - but if you would want to coordinate it and wait, that's fine too. CHAIRMAN: Because it's not equal. SECRETARY: But the Planning Board letter said "more equal," it didn't say it must be exactly equal. Page 4 - January 16~ ,i997 ' Southold Town Board of Appeals Transcript of Public Hearing MEMBER VILLA: Do you have any problems with putting a condition on that back lot, the big lot that it would not be further subdivided? MR. TANGNEY: I would, yes - but it's her property. MRS. TANGNEY: But we don't know what's going to come about in the future, right, so - MEMBER VILLA: Well, it is two acres here, I mean actually you are getting two lots that would average less than two acres apiece. So we're granting a variance to begin with. The concern with leaving one larger lot is that somebody would come in some time down the future and ask for that to be further subdivided. So we would like to put an end to that right now if it's being granted, and we would like to see, you know, you can either go through the Planning Board and the lots come out so that they wouldn't be of that size, or else it would possibly, we could put a condition in there that there be no further subdivision. CHAIRMAN: I - MR. TANGNEY: Let me first look to the Planning Board. I don't know- about that. CHAIRMAN: I think that's really the way to go. MEMBER VILLA: Go to the Planning Board. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I'm sorry to bring you out tonight. Is there anybody in the audience that would like to speak in favor of this application? Anybody like to speak against the application? PETER DANOWSKI, ESQ.: How about in-between the application? CHAIRMAN: In-between the application. It looks like Mr. Danowski? PETER DANOWSKI, ES(~.: Without a jacket and tie, Pete Danowski. I did recently buy some property next to this property, I happened to knock on Mrs. Tangney's door and hopefully didn't intrude on her. I didn't catch her husband there, but I invited the both of them over to my property if they caught me over there working on the old barn, and what I did say to Mrs. Tangney, is I would never oppose her application because I am tired of people opposing my clients' applications. So, whatever she wants - she's a neighbor~ she seems like a lovely lady. I haven't met her husband Page 5 - January 16'¢ -~997 Southold Town Board of Appeals T~anseript of Public Hearing --'TctA~.o yet. But I am sure we will be good neighbors, and if it turns out she doesn't want to build her house or Planning Board denies the subdivision or talks about alteration of boundary lines, I would be more than happy to talk to her about acquiring the extra parcel, then we'll have subdivided and create that extra house. That's up to the Planning Board and Tangneys, and I'm just a participant in the audience. Thanks. CHAIRMAN: Ok. Hearing no further questions, I'll make a motion reserving this -- SECRETARY: Recessing - CHAIRMAN: Motion recessing this, excuse me - recessing this with no date until such time as the Planning Board has had a chance to act on the subdivision. Motion was seconded and car,.ted. RECESSED WITHOUT A NEW DATE UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. RECEIVED AND FILED BY THE SOU/HOLD TOWN CLERK To~ Gl~rk, Town d ~uthold r ~ FEB- 5199T Transcript of .NYNEX Hearing Thursday, January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals 8:30P.M.- Chairman read the Application Chairman: Appl.#4446SE I'll continue with the legal notice while these gentlemen are setting up. Location of Property: a certain portion of farmland identified as 24850 Main Orient Zone District RS0 Residential and Agricultural;County tax map parcel 18-6-5 which contains a total lot acreage of 10.5 acres. Applicant as future tenant is requesting a) a variance under Article III Section 100-31 Bulk Schedule pertaining to a proposed wireless cellular telephone facility tower over a height of the required 35 ft. for a principal use, or over 18 ft. if the same is requested as an accessory use (main use at this property is known to be agriculture) and b) Special Exception under Article III Section 100-31B6 for permission to construct 12'x40' unmanned modular equipment shelter communications facility and use of a single wireless tower for public utility communications. No. III Bell-Atlantic-NYNEX Appl. #4446SE & ~4446V, possible action is requested by the Orient Association for an adjournment. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: OK I have a copy of the site plan indicating every facet of the antenna and its construction. I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and the surrounding properties in the area. Mr. Pachman are you doing the presentation sir? Howard Pachman, Esq. - Half of it. The other Mr. Pachman will do the other half. Members of the Board, ladies and gentlemen, it's nice to back at this venue again. At the outset I'd realty like to express my sincere thanks for the cooperation I. received from Linde Kowalski, the Boards' secretary. One hell of a nice person and she really knows how to serve the public. And I really want to extend my heartfelt thanks for the way she really cooperated with us and gave us the information we needed. My name is Howard Pachman and I'm from the firm of Paehman, Pachman and Brown, my address is Veterans Memorial Hwy. in Commack and I'm the attorney for the applicant Bell Atlantic-NYNEX Mobile. The affidavits of mailing and the return receipt cards were received and handed up to the Board Secretary. As you can see, the site of this particular location is 24850 Main Rd. Orient NY. The tenant is a subdivision of NYNEX known as SMA Limited Partnership and they are a conglomeration or in coexistence of Belt-Atlantic-NYNEX Mobile and they're located 180 Washington Valley Rd Bedminster NJ. The particular site is located in Orient but the portion that we rent is 1800 in Sq Ft and with the access road of 2500 Sq Ft making a total rentable space of 4200 Sq Ft. The landlords are Mary and Mark Phillips. The proposed monopole as you can see by your site plan is a tower which we made application for as being 100' in height, we are publicly indicating to at this point we are requesting a lower height of 84'. The reason for the additional 16' is that at some future date subject to this Boards' approval this tower would be made available for collocation meaning that P~age 2 - Transcmpt Of NYNEX Hearing J~anuary 16, 1997 Southotd Town Board of Appeals another tower user could this same site so that there would not be a proliferation of antennas at this particular location. I will be speaking to the issue of the telecommunication act which was passed about a year ago which encourages and suggests that in as many areas as you can have as many providers collocate on the same tower to avoid proliferation of towers and because of the way the radio frequencies work you need a distance separation of about 16' between each of the providers. The base of the tower is 3.6' and at the top it has a triangle of three antenna rays and they will be described to you by Mr. Gazzo who is our radio frequency engineer and the tower has three faces on them and you can see existing towers; Bell Atlantic-NYNEX has a tower in Cutchogue on North Road. Metro-One which is now AT&T has one on EHjah's La. off 25. Those are the two towers that are of monopole construction. I will show you later that the tower that we are proposing to erect is not any thing similar to the lattice tower that exists behind Southold Police Department. It is not similar and as large and as bulky as the NY Telephone tower that sits on Peconic on Main Road 25° It's a different type of tower. A Public Hearing has been calied to establish our availability and our compliance with the Town of Southold Code. The Southold Code makes provision in the Residents Agricultural Conservative District R40 RS0 R200. Permitted use subject to conditions under 100.31B6 of Public Utilities and that is deemed under this code to be a permitted use. And a special permit as defined in your code is a permitted use and the only thing that is subject to that is that when this Board make its determination it makes the determination based upon the existence of our proof to you, which we will show that we are a public utility and that it is necessary to serve the areas within the town subject to such reasonable conditions as the Board of Appeals may impose in order to protect the health safety appearance and general welfare of the community. The character of the neighborhood in which the proposed site is to be constructed. As I say your code specifically states that this is a permitted conditional use. Now lets turn to what Bell Atlantic NYNEX is. Bell Atlantic NYNEX is a public utility. Chairman: Mr. Pachman we're going to stop you second to change the tape. Mr. H. Pachman: Under the Public Service Law Section 17, which I won't read to you at length. Under the Tax Law 186A and under the FCC we are deemed to be a public utility. This is Board has held in two previous cases which I eluded to. One of them being NYNEX Mobile application in Cutchogue, 1991 that we were a public utility and that we served certain purposes and that it is acknowledged that the service provided by our cellular phones are important telecommunication services. You did that again in Metro One Application 402-3 in 8/][8/92. Things have happened since that time, the Courts have held in the Court of Appeals of the State of NY in the matter of Cellular Telephone Co. vs Rosenburg that the telephone cellular service is a public utility. In a case in the Appel]ate Division 2nd Department in the matter of the Cellular Telephone Co. vs Robert Meyer that the petitioner Cellular Telephone Co. is mandated to provide service under the Public Service l~age 3 - Transcript ~ NYNEX Hearing ~anuary 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Law to fill the gaps and to have seamless service. This is no different than if you built a house down the road from here and you wanted a telephone, the telephone company would have to provide that service for you, and make sure that you have the right to have that service and the availability of that service. It is further note worthy that the trend has changed that in ]996 on Feb. 8th the Telecommunications Act was passed signed into law by the President and it has revolutionized change and radicalized the. telecommunications industry. We direct your attention to Section 704 of that particular Act which makes certain new important findings. One, that cellular phones are public utilities that each Board must not discriminate among providers. A municipality shall not prohibit the providing of cellular service, a municipality must act within a reasonable time if the request is duly filed to be heard. That the municipalities decision shall be in writing and supported by substantial evidence and that is according to the usual policies which you follow. I know that. But I'm saying it was recodified in the Federal Law and it attracts the State Law. And that any cellular service that is adversely affected can bring what we call an Article 78 proceeding not only in State court now but in Federal court; and can even bring an application before the Federal Communications COmmission. As you will see by the witnesses we will present to the Board we believe that our client complies with all the requirements of the TOwn of Southold Zoning COde as it pertains to the application as submitted including uncontrovertible expert testimony. That our client's intended Use does not exceed the standards for radio frequency emissions as set forth by the FCC and that this service is needed to provide the service in this particular area. As you can see by the aerial, the site is in Orient on the South side of Main Rd 25 just east of Platt Ave. On the corner of P]att Ave is the Fire House. Public: No, not so. Mr. Peluso: That's Platt Rd. The Fire House is on Tabor Road. I live there, I know where I live. Mr. H. Paehman: I appreciate your concern. Mr. Pehiso: Thank you. If you want to address it, address it right that's all. Mr. Pachman: Thank you. Mr. Pehiso: It's no problem. Mr. Pachman: I beg your apology. The property is largely farmland as you can see. There are residential houses that border the perimeter of the road. And the site is this acreage right here; we intend to put the cellular phone tower on, as you can see by the site plan, on that site with the road that takes you to the back. The area will be fenced. It will be a communications building which is unmanned, which will be described to you by our engineer and we will have the following witnesses that will ~age 4 -Transeript of NYNEX Hearing January 18, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals speak to you in due turn to touch all the bases of all the requirements that are necessary. We have our consulting engineers, Daniel Faiasco, we have our real estate manager from Bell-Atlanfic NYNEX Mobile if .there are any questions pertaining to the site lease. Mr. John Gazzo who is a radio frequency engineer for Bell-Atlantic NYNEX Mobile. We have our district manager of construction for Long Island and Queens, Mr. Dominick Clemente. We have Mr. Louis Cornacchia from SINETICS Corp. who will talk to the issue of radio emissions. We have John Breslin from Breslin Appraisal Company who will taik to the issue of reai estate values and we have John Follis, Am. Institute of Planners who w~ll discuss the issue of the proper planning and use of this particular site. And we have a submission which we will hand to you at the end, a report dated 12/96 entitled Visuai Impact Anaiysis for the proposed monopole at the particular site. At this time Mr. Matthew Pachman wdll take the witnesses through their particular testimony. Chairman: Who is the first witness you are going to cail Mr. Pachman? Mr. M.Pachman: We are going to call... Gordon Price: Could we have a microphone for these gentlemen so the rest of us conid be aware of what's going on? Chairman: They can take that microphone right there. If they can reach. Ralph Peluso: Can we see that map? Chairman: I think the best thing to do is take a short recess and let everybody look at everything we have.. Mr. Paehman: Right now? Chairman: Yeah we'll do it right now. Chairman: I need a motion to reconvene. J. Dinizio: So move. Chairman: Second. The next thing is. I have to swear in each witness, so give me the availability to do so and thirdly, we would request that the audience be as cordial to everyone as they are among themselves. No more outbursts please. Thank you. Mr. Pachman. Mr. H Pachman: Just one thing. That large aerial I have some smaller ones for you so you can see them a little easier. Chairman: Raising your right hand gentlemen, do you swear that the information you are about to give us is the truth to the best of your knowledge ? Witnesses: (All) Yes. i~ge 5 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing Sanuary 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Chairman: Will you state your name, thank you. Mr. M Pachman: May I proceed Mr. Chairman? Chairman: Yes Mr. Pachman: OK When we first ask Dan Falasco to step up. (Microphone set up). L. Tortora: Mr. Falasco, you are? Mr. Falaseo: I'm the engineer. Is that alt you need? L. Tortora: That's it. M. Paohman: Mr. Falasco can you please just give a brief description of your background and experience? Mr. Falaseo: Graduate of Clarkson College which today is known as Clarkson University, I received my degree in engineering in 1973 and I received my PD license in 1979. I've been praotioing on L.I. ever since then. M. Paehman: Mr. Chairman I've handed up a copy of Mr. Falaseo's resume to the clerk. MR. Falasco can you please tell us you had an opportunity to review the plans and submissions of the applicant? Mr. Fa]asco: Yes I have. M. Pachman: Can you please describe for the Board the type of communications facilities that is contemplated at this site? Mr. Falaseo: What I'd first like to show is that we took a copy of the actual site plan and scaled it down to be to the same scale as the aerial photo to give you some kind of an idea of where the tower is on the site itself. Also showing the required 120' radius fall zone we had to put on the plan to show how that fits on the property. After that we'll go back to the site plan itself and basically as Mr. Pachman explained before, the property is approximately 375' east of Plait Rd. on the south side of Main Rd. The property frontage on Main Rd. is 223'. We are proposing to put our access road to the easterly portion of the site and the road going back will be approximately 250'. The monopole itself will be approximately 275' from Main Rd. Our leased area is 50x36' plus the 10' road thai we need to get back there. On the site that we're proposing is a 12x40' premanufactured equipment building by Fiberbond. It's an exposed aggregate type of structure, and there's only one door on it. The facility houses all of the necessary equipment that someone else will be able to testify exactly what that is. This is an unmanned facility. The site is Visited once every three, four weeks by a technicians who today they are currently driving Ford Taurus', that is a NYNEX assigned car. They ~ge 8 - Transcript Of NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of APpeals come to the site, they take out their bag of diagnostic tools, they run some checks on the facility, they do their thing, they leave. So from a traffic point of view this is not going to be generating traffic except one vehicle every once in a while. The facility is secured. It has fire and alarm systems that are tied back into the main offices of NYNEX in case there's any problems, that's how they get notified through the alarming system. The pole that we're proposing on the Site is known as a monopole. Basically it's a steel pole, the one for this site was originally shown on the plans to be '100'. I heard Mr Pachman say that it has been diminished to 84' for our needs. The pole, at the top of the pole, as Mr Pachman explained is a triangular shape base which is 10' on each side. On each one those sides there are three antennas, which is cailed an antenna array. There are three antennas on each side of the triangle. So for a total of nine sticks that stick up. The pole does have the capabilities of having an extension put on it, but that would obviously be subject to this Board and at this time there is no other provisions for that. The pole is a blue gray color. We also have information from the manufacturer of the pole which will give the loading requirements and what it's designed for. This pole has withstood and has been in place in Florida during hurricane Andrew and has withstood those httrricanes. These here monopoles they are designed not to fall, they are designed to bend if there is a catastrophic environmental condition that will cause that; that is they will flex and they will bend, and if they bend beyond its' fail point they won't come back into position but they will not fall down. As they bend the wind resistance on the pole diminishes because the surface area diminishes and therefore there's ]ess reSistance on it as it is bending. We have not had any failure of these poles that we know about, that the manufacturer has known about, and basically that's it. The driveway that we're proposing on this site is a gravel driveway and as I said the reason for that is that because of the limited amount of need that we have to drive on the site. Basically that's it. M.Pachman: Yes, in fact this unmanned facility clearly of course does not have any bathroom facilities or anything like that. Is that correct? Mr. Falasco: That's correct. M. Pachman: Yes. Mr. Chairman I'm handing up now letters and a report from Engineering Endeavors, that is the company that has designed the pole and certifies the structural integrity of the tower. Again as Mr. Faiasco has said these type of pole has withstood hurricanes up to 120, 130 mph. It has withstood the earthquakes and in fact during these natural disasters it is these poles, it is this system which is the type of communication that continues to operate when the land lines are down, and aids in the emergency services. Mr. Falasco, now the Southold Town Code provides certain conditions that the applicant has to satisfy and with the Board's indulgence I'd just like to take you through those conditions which apply to your testimony. Can you please describe the effect that the location of the proposed use would have on the vehicular traffic congestion. Would there be any creation or Pe~ge 7 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals undue increase of vehicular traffic congestion on the public streets or highways. Mr. Falasco: No increase. M. Pachman: Can you please describe if there is any need for the availability of adequate and proper public or private water supply or facilities for the treatment, removal or discharge of sewage, refuse or other effluent? Mr. Falasco: This is an unmanned facility so there would not be. M. Pachman: And whether the use of the materials incidental to the tower may give off any noxious gases, odors smoke or soot? Mr. Falasco: No, it will not. M~ Pachman: And whether the use will cause any emissions of electrical discharges, dust, light, vibration or noise? Mr. Falasco: No. M. Pachman: And we'll have further testimony about that. And whether the operation pursuant of the use will cause undue interference with the orderly enjoyment by the public of parking or recreational facilities? Mr. Falasco: It will not. M. Pachman: And whether the plot area is sufficient and adequate for the use of the operation? Mr. Falasco: Very sufficient. M. Pachman: I have no further questions members of the Board. Chairman: Starting with Mr. Vilia? R. Villa: Yeah I have a question. I saw on the plan that the building to house the equipment has a area for a generator. Mr. Falasco: That's correct. R. Villa: Now what kind of a generator? Mr. Falasco: Mr. Clemente? Mr. Clemente: It's a diesel generator. R. Villa: Well then how can you say there will be no odors, smoke or noise? Page 8 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Mr. Falasco: It's interior to the building. R. Villa: No it's still going to have some emissions. And if it's going to be a diesel what kind of tap in? I saw nothing on the plans for storage of fuel. Where is that going to be? Mr. Falasco: It's self contained. R. Villa: Both Mr. Falasco: It's self contained. And the unit itself is a self contained unit to house the diesel fuel and the generator all as one unit. R. Villa: Al1 right. I'd like to see the specs on that. Mr. Falasco: I'd be more than happy to provide those for you. Ellen Peluso: Excuse me Mr. Chairman I just have a question. How do you know about the traffic? Have you done a study in that area? Chairman: I did recognize her but I thought it was a specific question about the other. Ellen Peluso: Oh no, but can we ask the gentleman questions? Chairman: We'd kind of would like to wait until the presentation is done if you don't mind. But if for some specific reason you want to ask it now you're welcome to. Ellen Peluso: Well no, because it was just current right now. It just came up and I thought since he's the ~xpert he could probably answer it. Mr. Falasco: Would you like me to answer that right now? Chairman: Please. MR. Falasco: There was no independent traffic studies that were done on Main Rd. We're referring to the actual fact that this is an unmanned facility that has one vehicle coming out of it, in and out, once every three or four weeks. That's the only traffic that wilt be generated on it. Ellen Peluso: No I meant the traffic on our roads. Not your traffic, our traffic. How wi]] interact with that. Chairman: Miss you have to address the Board. You can't ask specific questions. Ellen Peluso: Oh I can't? Oh I'm sorry. Chairman: You have to address the question to the Board and then the applicant. Do you want answer that question? Page 9 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board Of Appeals Mr. Falasco: There were no studies done on any of the other streets. There'll be no need, in my opinion for that one car that does come once every three or four weeks to go down any of the residential areas to get to the site. Chairman: OK. Mr. Pachman? M Pachman: Yes, then Mr. Chairman I would like to ask Mr. Gazzo, the radio frequency engineer to come up. Chairman: Oh. I apologize. I didn't go down the entire Board with Mr. Falasco. I apologize. No. We'll just wait until the end. L. Tortorak I'm willing to wait till the end if you are. J. Dinizio: Well I'd just like to ask this gentleman a question You said the top of the tower is going to have a 10xl0xl0' triangle on the top, antennas coming down. I'm assuming they're not going to be over 84'. That's not going to make any noise? Mr. Faiaseo: Those towers? We haven't experienced any noise from them. Chairman: Are you referring to drone or something of that nature? J Dinizio: Yeah. More specifically, a drone. Yes. Wind howling through the tower? Mr. Falasco: I haven't experienced anything, at our other sites. Chairman: OK. Thank you. Mr. Pachman I'm sorry. M. Pachma~: We'd .ask Mr. Gazzo with the Board's permission to come Mr. Gazzo you are the radio frequency engineer employed at Bell Atlantic NYNEX Mobile is that correct? Mr. Gazzo: Yes. M. Pachman: Would you please give us a brief description of your background and training? Mr. Gazzo: I graduated with a bachelors in electrical engineering from Polytechnic University located in Farmingdale NY. I just recently graduated again from Polytechnic University with a masters. I've been in the radio frequency business for about the last seven years, I've been employed by Bell Atlantic Mobile for the last six years as a radio frequency engineer. M. Pachman: Very good. Now Mr. Gazzo can you please tell us have you been previously qualified as an expert in radio frequency matters by various towns and villages in Nassau and Suffolk County. Is that correct? i~age 10 - Transcript"~f NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Mr. Gazzo: Yes I have. M Pachman: Would you please explain to Board how a cell telephone system works from an engineering standpoint? Mr. Gazzo: Sure. Well very briefly, if you look at the use of things in the room. We have three microphones .that appear on the desk. If each of these represents one of our cell sites we'll go through basically how the system works. If you were to start at this end of the Board table and initiate a call, the way the call is initiated is as follows: You dial a number, you will press send and that call will go up onto the cell site the call will be routed back to a switching office and from that point there we will determine whether that call should go to a land line office or to another mobile telephone or even out to somewhere else in the world. As you begin to drive, because it is cellular and it's a mobile environment you're going to go from one cell site to the next cell site. Somewhere along the point both cell sites are constantly communicating back and forth with the phone and with our computer network back at Orangeburg. When you get to point where the service level diminishes to point where we feel the call quality isn't where we need it to be we will begin a hand off procedure. And that procedure basically says the next site is located coming up, please tune to these channels in the phone, automatically without you knowing in under a second will tune to the next cell site. And the whole process starts over again. Wheu you press end it basically tears down the call and your call is completed. The way we accomplish this is through radio frequency and we are given by the FCC radio frequencies which we re-use through the network. This is akin to what happens basically with radio stations today. If you drive across the country you'll notice that your radio stations change every once in a while, and that again is the re-use of frequencies. We obviously do it in a much smaller area and we do it more precisely because our frequencies are higher. And basically that's how the system does work. M Pachman: Can you please tell us Bel Atlantic NYNEX Mobile as part of its' FCC license has been granted a specific band on which it can operate. Will you please discuss this with the Board. Mr. Gazzo: Around 1984, some channels that were used for what was currently very high frequency television, this was the dial on your TV that most people tuned to view and got mostly snow, well in that band there was a group of frequencies that was not really suited for that type of use, which is broadcast television.At that point the FCC reallocated those frequencies across the country to two cellular providers in each geographic area. At that point we were NYNEX Mobile Communications, we received a license from the FCC which allowed us to use those frequencies throughout the NY Metro area. By receiving the license we were guaranteed that we are the only users of the frequencies in that band, therefore we do not interfere with any one else and we also are not interfered by other people. Because, again it's our band solely. P~ge 11 - Transcript'~v~~ NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals M Pachman: Now have you determined that there is service deficiency along Main Road in the search area? Mr. Gazzo: Yes. M Pachman: Could you please us how you determined there was such a service deficiency? Mr. Gazzo: Well what you'll notice is crackling, you'll notice a degradation in the call quality. The standard we hold ourse]yes to is the standard of land line quality, which is similar to you picking up the phone in your house when it operates normally and you hear a crisp clean conversation from both parties. In order to do that there has to be certain area between the noise level which is the ambient noise level thai exists in the environment and our signal level. For us to be able to do this we need to strategically place cell sites in our cellular geographic area. We've noticed that in this area that level has deteriorated. That is basically due to the population of other cell sites which creates some interference and also that we don't have a cell site in the area and mainly because the customer and what they're using today is a much smaller phone, lower power. So one of the main things you are going to see there is a deterioration in your eali quality. We also have a problem with Connecticut service. And basically what happens is their signal is stronger in that environment than our signal and we can't have that, we have to correct that situation. Which is mandated by the FCC. M. Pachman: Is it true Mr. Gazzo that as part of the FCC license a eompany is mandated to provide a certain level of service? And that service should be what is ealled seamless service. Mr. Gazzo: Correct. Seamless in quality service is part of the requirements of holding a license and that basically is judged by our customers and our customers do eomplsin about the service in this area. M. Pachman: Now did you, will the site which is proposed help remedy the service deficiency in this area? Mr. Gazzo: Yes it will. M. Pachman: And you've been referring to a computer propagation map labeled existing cellular coverage. I've handed up a copy to the Board and ask that that be put in evidence. Will you please describe what this shows? Mr. Gazzo: Basicaliy what we have here is the North Fork of L.I. and this shows our existing cellular coverage. The current map you have, the hand in map, is basically the same 'thing just a smelter version. I've pointed out the existing sites and the proposed site. And as you can see the blue represents what we call quality service. Now there are several other gaps in the area but what you need to understand about this map ~ge 12 - Transcripf-~' NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Sonthold Town Board of Appeals is it's a computer generated model and what it says is basically it's a switch, either the service is there or it is not there. And if you set a certain threshold mark it may turn off in a certain area. This is only a representation of the service it's gives a good representation of the service and these are also some of the areas we are looking at to place a cell site. What we do to also back this up to really- get a good feel of what is happening is again we have field personnel who are constantly driving the area in their effort to service the site and also in our effort we constantly drive the area to determine the level of service. And that's what we're judged by for internal reasons. We've also noted based upon that information that there is lack of coverage in this area. I've also sent people from our organization to drive the area with equipment. Basically what we do is we use the current GPS network which is a satellite network constantly orbiting around the world. We tie that into our vehicle which gives us a location on a map. Then our vehicle has receivers tuned to a specific frequency within site of our van which is a test frequency. We generate a test signal and we see where we see the test signal and where we don't. And then we turn the test signal off and we do what is called an ambient coverage of the area or existing cellular. And then we overlay that over the map. And this basically represents that information also. Chairman: Before we finish this with this gentleman, we have to give the audience a chance to look at this map, OK. All the people squinting and having a hard time just give us a couple of minutes here and we'll let you look at this and then we can deal with __.That one isn't really as good as the one they have right there. L Tortora: I'm having a problem with this map because it really doesn't coincide with the map you've submitted as far as your seamless service areas. Mr. Gazzo: This is proposed coverage; that would be the second map. L Tot/ora: We were looking at this one, there's another at the end. Mr. Gazzo: One is a before and the other is an after. One is existing the other is put forward, should the site Chairman: This one (exhibit) is the deficiency. Mr. Gazzo: Correct it shows the gaps. B Villa: This is the current though? M Pachman: Yeah, this is what's happening according to the computer propagation. Maybe if we can flip that up for members of the Board and for the audience when they have an opportunity to see it. If and when the site is up and operating what the computer propagation, computer generation will show as to the coverage. Page 13 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Beard of Appeals Chairman: OK M Pachman: Will you please explain Mr. Gazzo what we are looking at. Mr. Gazzo: Sure. Right now you see that there I~ve turned on several other possible sites in and around the area and one of those being the proposed Orient site and you see that it covers the area we're having a problem with. L Tortora: OK Cause it wasn't identified here and I said wait. Not the same maps. Mr. Gazzo: On the key on the side of map what you'll see is the first key is titled existing cellular coverage and the key on the other map is titled proposed cellular coverage. Let me make sure that's correct. Proposed cellular coverage. L Tortora: Because we don't have the ~ther one down here. Mr. Cazzo: The other one says existing cellular coverage. Chairman: What's the question Bob? B. Villa: My question is, and I profess not to know much about this, but we were asked to get a tower in Cutchogue which you did get, why have you got an area where you have poor service right in the middle of Cutchogue? Mr. Gazzo: OK And I'll explain how it works again. Understand something first of all about the propagation; it's a 0 or 1. So by setting the bar it could be on or off. The service area you are talking about is probably about maybe a mile along, along 25A. As the terrain changes and as the cells propagate the propagation dies off naturally-. That's just the way it is. And we also have to keep the propagation at a certain level so it doesn't interfere our other~ cell sites. Thirdly, the site is made up of three different sectors. There's a sector faced ~02 degrees east of true North, there's a 220 degrees east of true north and a third sector at 342 degrees. Sometimes when you appear in the no you're going to get what's called an area of no service because you are in the no of all the sectors. And we try to overlap that but sometimes we're not able to do that. So we have to put in other sites to do that. B Villa: So what you're saying is we're looking at a proliferation of these things because you're always going to have blind spots? Mr. Gazzo: Well the way we determine and that goes into how and why we put up sites. And there's a whole list of criteria. One of the biggest criteria is that our customers eomptain and that we have a significant enough problem to spend a significant amount of money to fix it. Again this doesn't necessarily mean that this is a bad area. What it means is Page 14 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing January 16, ]997 Southold Town Board of Appeals that the level of service we're looking for is currently not met in that area. And it's currently not met over a small part of the area. L Tortora: How many customers do you serve in the area that you are proposing to create the cell site? Mr. Gazzo: Well there's two issues with that, I don't have that information and that's, I can tell you how many customers we have, over a million customers~ but how many customers we serve in specific area I don't have. L Tortora: I'm trying to get some idea of~ the extent of the complaints and the magnitude of this problem. Mr. Gazzo: A sufficient enough amount of complaints that a) It has been brought to the engineering departments attention by our customer service organization b) It has also been flagged on our, every time we re-evaluate the network and we do a scan of the network and we see the current level and each year we adjust the level we need to provide to our customers based on the technology and the amount of customers that that is also flagged with a problem and thirdly the predominate problem on the North Fork of Long Island is the proliferation of the competitor on the other side of the water into this area. L Tortora: Let me get into this a little bit. Chairman: Hold the question, we'll be right with you. Gerry Woodhouse: Just a definition. When you're taiking about customer I'm clear what you're talking about. Are you talking about customers who live in that area or are you talking about customers who might be driving on 25 and need to be using the phone. I'm just not clear on that. Chairman: Do you want them to address that? L Tortora: Yes and then I'd like to ask a question. Mr. Gazzo: It's both. L Tortora: As far as the competition in Connecticut. Explain to me exactly what happens. In other words when you get into one of these crackling areas what happens? Mr. Gazzo: OK If this room were to be dark and you were to stand at one end of the room and I were to stand at the other end of the room and I was to give you a light flashlight and I was to tell you hold this flashlight like that. Now the room is totally dark you have the only light source in the room and as you put thai light on a certain amount of that light is going to travel across the room. The reason being there's nothing for it to interfere with. There's no barriers to block it there's no mountains there's no trees. There's nothing else there. Now the only way page 15 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals to compensate because if I need to have my own Hght on my side of the room is for me to put up a light. And then if I put up a red light I'm going to see more red light than I'm going to see white light because the red light is closer to where I am. L Tortora: It has nothing to do with frequency and transmission. Mr. Gazzo: Well basically light is a waive. L Tortora: So in other words you could have this problem whether you're living in Cutchogue or in Southold or anywhere. It's very similar to the fact that the people who live a'long Long Island Sound in Southold pick up Connecticut TV because there is nothing to interfere with it and because their transmission is much stronger because there's nothing to interfere with it. Is that very accurate? Mr. Gazzo: Exactly L Tortora: So at what point does this competition come in? In the township of Southold in other words? In what specific area is it being flipped over to Connecticut? Mr. Gazzo: Probably in the Orient Point area you're going to see a lot of it. L Tortora: In no other areas? Mr. Gazzo: Oh. L Tortora: In no other areas of Southold? Mr. Gazzo: If you travel along the beach of Southold and you're an area that's a bluff that's behind one of our sites, and again you have a clear line of site to their sites over ours you're going to see that signal much clearer than ours. L Tortora: So the problem of the cellular quality service is not one that is unique and competition from Connecticut is clearly not one that is unique to this particular site. Mr. Gazzo: It's unique to the North Shore of Long Island and it's also unique to any time you border a system, especially your systems are boarded with a large body of water across them. L Tortora: Are you familiar with the new micro cell technology that require new types of towers and has NYNEX operated any of these systems in NY State? Mr. Gazzo: Yeah. I'm very familiar with micro cells. Micro cells is also a generic term. Basically what that generic term means is a smaller cell, thus when you talk about a micro cell you talk about a smaller cell that's Page 16 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing ~January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals going to serve less customers and it's predominately used in an urban environment because of the low powered nature of the cell and because of the way it's positioned. L Tortora: Do you have any of the micro cell systems operating in NY State. Mr. Gazzo: Oh yes we do. L Tortora: Could you give us a list of the locations of those. Mr. Gazzo: They are in building type cells. Yes I don't have that list at hand right now but. L Tortora: Could you provide that information to the Board please. Mr. Gazzo: Sure L Tortora: Thank you. Chairman: Gentleman had a question right over here. Ralph Peluso: I have a question regarding the cellular phone which I use quite often and live right where that proposed tower is going and I have no problems what so ever. Now if I'm using the cellular phone and I don't get, and I use NYNEX by the way, and it goes out, I'll go into Rome. OK. Now when I go into Rome it's not NYNEX is that what's their problem, that they are loosing money cause my cellular phone is being transferred to someone else, in that area. Chairman: Who's able to answer that question? Mr. Gazzo: Again it's the perception of how you look at it. You're also paying an additional fee. R Peluso: I don't care. Mr. Gazzo: Well. R Peluso: You're the people who care it seems. L Tortora: Just address your question to the Chairman, OK please. R Peluso: He's looking at me, you know. Mr. Gazzo: To answer that question I can give an example only cause we can go back and forth. Basically we have customers who do care and are concerned about when they go to make a call that they're not making a call in the network they're contracted to make that call on. This becomes partieularly important when you're trying to make a call to save someone's life. Page 17 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals R Peluso: 911 goes through no matter what on the celiular phones. Chairman: OK I had two other questions. R Peluso: My background is an electricai contractor. Chairman: Hold on one second. Hold your questions ladies and gentlemen. R Peluso: I just think that's a bogus answer. Mr. Gazzo: The problem with that is that when you're roaming on another carrier and you try to use some of the services that cellular provides you're going to be routed over to the Connecticut area. In the Connecticut area you're going to be telling someone where you are located and what the probtem is. There's a very good chance that they're not familiar with what's happening. Until you identify that you're on a cellular phone and you identify what county you're in. At that point which is probably about two to three minutes you are now going to routed back to Riverhead. t{ Peluso: Excuse me. I have an answer to that please. Usualty when you go to Rome the operator will tell you you're in Rome, OK and if that phone cail is going through they already know I'm in Rome. OK Chairman: OK Is there anything else you'd like to say. M Pachman: If I could just ask Mr Gazzo, How did you determine the height of tower? Mr Gazzo: By using all the tools we have available to us. Using both the propagation model the real life data model using GPS and also the signal strength we'll do several propagation models before we send a team out to do a test. Based upon those severai propagation models we wR1 se what the best height is and then we'll confirm that using actual data analysis. Chairman: We have a question from the lady in the back. Ann Mc Since it's nine miles across the Sound, and we are transferring and picking up from Connecticut, then you're sending equipment, Orient's only three miles, so is it true then that if the power were located on Plum Island which would only be four miles away from us it would be equally effective? Mr. Gazzo: No. Again you go back to the quality of service and what we discussed about the flashlight and there is no interference. When and I don't know who I should direct my question to the audience or you. OK Again when you're talking about cellular you have to talk about a line of sight technology. And when you're standing on the shore of Connecticut yon have to understand something about the way Connecticut was Page 18 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals developed. Connecticut is very industrialized on their shore, Their sites are very very high and very very powerful. And they see much farther than our sites, that's why some of their sites actual interfere into the Sag Harbor and E. Hampton area. They get that far across because they're so high they have less to interfere. And because they're powered up. Again if we put a site on Plum Island, again we're defeating our purpose because we're going to have to power the sites up so much thai we're going to create interference back into our network, thus creating another mini SNET problem. What again, when you talk about micro eeli tecimology and you talk about where the technology is going that really ties into what we're discussing here is that you need to place the site where the customers are, where the problem is so that you reduce the interference you give the level of service you need and only that level service. If you start to power it up and try to fix the problem from the outside in you're going to create a mass amount of interference in our network and that's just going to shuffle the problem all over the plaoe. Chairman: OK Question from this gentleman here. Just state your name for the record please. John Rieger: Do you have an application before the FCC for this instillation? M Paehman: The FCC has granted Bell Atlar~tie NYNEX Mobile a license to operate a cellular network. You don't apply each time for each site. It has a license, the license was just approved for l0 years, John Rieger: Have you notified the FCC that this might be environmentally sensitive? M Pachman: Well maybe we can into those questions with another witness who might be, ah. Chairman: Can you hold that question sir? J Rieger: Yes, thank you. J Dinizio: Can I ask a question? Chairman: Sure J Dinizio: I guess I have a couple of technical questions, one would be, I notice you have a tower in Greenport, Moore's La. And then you have one ~where, in Cutchogue, is the next one? Mr. Gazzo: Yes. J Dinizio: I suppose, can you give some information on the tower? Some type of level reading? Mr. Gazzo: That's proprietary to our network. Page 19 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of APpeals J Dinizio: I suppose, but we're trying to make a decision here as to whether or not you need to have this to service your customers. So I'm wondering myself personally just if it's necessary or if you couldn't go to this micro cell technology because mostly your customers are going to be along that main road, and you could put mini cells, same as in the Lincoln Tunnel same as Queens Midtown Tunnel along the main road and be much less obtrusive. And solve your problem and solve our problem, so I'm looking more for, I worked for cablevision for 18 Years, and I sited towers. I've done some. And if you're telling us that the information that was sent to us from Washing~on was basically that you do have certain rights as a Public Utility, and I don't deny that, but I would like to be able to make an informed decision. I understand proprietary. You can put it anywhere you want. You can go based to 1 to 10 and tell me where l0 Would get you and where you are now. At 5 or whatever. Mr. Gazzo: I guess I can answer that question a lot better by just giving you a little more information. And I also fall into this sometimes too when asked these questions. Everyone focuses on the structure they are going to see, which is the tower. And everyone focuses on the existing towers and only what we call. talks about the forward pattern or the forward channel which is the tower speal~ing to the phone. The other problem that we have is that the phone needs to speak to the tower and regardless of the power level we set this at, if the tower reaches the phone but the phone doesn't reach the tower, the call doesn't work. So the phones are getting much much smaller, and so again we've gone to the micro cell technology in dense urban environments or inside buildings because we want to locate the antenna which is both the send and receive as close as possible to the customer. Hopefully that answers the first part of your question which was talking about powering up the site and why can't we do that to solve our problem. Because it's not going to solve the other problem on the reverse end, plus it's going to create a huge amount of problems in the area with the other sites located both in Connecticut with our competition and also in the Hamptons. J Dinizio: Just one more thing. I'd just like to concentrate on this. You know the argument kind of flies in the face of everything if you're telling me that the same exact phone in Orient can talk to Connecticut but can't to your tower in Greenport. Mr. Gazzo: There it is, again, you're talking about water. There is nothing in its way. Your talking about sites that are 300' above ground level that are powered up much much higher than ours. Again you're getting into how we engineer our network and they engineer their network different than the way we do and we try to coexist and we have monthly meetings. And we're always asking them to power their sites down because they're infringing onto our network. But if we don't have a source of RF in the area there is very little we can do to fix that problem. Page 20 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southotd Town Board of Appeals J Dinizio: OK Now you've answered the forward part, but what about the other side. What about the this guy talking to that ceil site? Mr. Gazzo: Again, it's a clear Hne of sight, this is not a clear line of sight here. It may be flat in you mind, but at six feet there are trees, there is a lot in the way. When you're going this way it's a much clearer line of sight. Plus this is a much higher antenna. Our antennas aren't as high. B Villa: If that's the case, you'd need a pole every fifty feet. If a tree is going to stop you. Inaudible due to noise in room. There are houses that are 35'. Mr. Gazzo: No. Chairman: I~ve got a question back there. Sir, you've been very patient thank you. Just state your name for the record. Bob Hicks: I'm very confused at least with the technology that this man is putting forward. In other words, we're at the mercy of the technology which NYNEX is developing as opposed to something in Connecticut which can overcome these problems by boosting the power. But the original suggestion that I put to the Board was Plum Island and I guess several others have, and I still don't see why there's a tower there, a water tower that's existing. And I don't know the exact height, but the tine of sight off of that tower has to be perfect for this area. Again, I'm not an engineer, you can rebut whatever you say. And from what I'm that your technology and I think that Bob Villa is just alluding to it, is micro, and you go to that and you're going to have a tower~ God knows how frequent you'll need towers. Why don't you take something from Connecticut and see if you can't apply it here and save us all of these particular problems that we're coming up with, land values, site everything else. You're just going in your direction, you're NYNEX and you want to build towers. Where is your consideration for the people that are in Orient. Mr. Gazzo: I'll try and address again the issue about Connecticut and the way they design their system. When you have a tower and someone said and I'm using information that was told tonight, that is nine mi]es across the water the level of service that you are going to get while you're roaming is not the level of service we want to provide. That's the company policy, that's the engineering rule. First of all we wouldn't want to put a tower over there to shoot back into here. We couldn't do that because it's not our CGSA which is the cellular geographic service area which we're licensed to provide service within. And again we go back to the level of service. Everybody has a perception of what they deem to be an acceptable level of service. We go by several criteria we've talked about and based upon that criteria we need a site in this area. Again I still haven't answered your question about micro cell technology to your fullest extent. I'd like to dabble on that right now, to see if I can help. Page 21 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals J Dinizio: That's why I asked it. Mr. Gazzo: I'm pretty familiar with trying to use a micro cell technology in an area like this. The problem you get into is then you don't fully cover the area and your create now mini spots. And the mini spots now become micro cell type holes, so then how do you begin to fill those. If you don't get the coverage the way you need it. It's not an urban environment the coverage is not going to dictate where I want it to go by using these smaller antennas. It's not a feasible solution for me to try and do that with micro ceils. L Tortora: Aren't they built into the cable systems. There are no towers is my understanding. Mr. Gazzo: It's a lot. You know. The public hears a lot about this stuff but it's not being done it's all kind of like vapor-wear. Like when someone comes into you and tells you we're going to be doing this or we're almQst close to doing this we're almost there, but when you really sit down and I try and sit down with these people and say well what do you have, what is the product you have, because I would love to be able to hang stuff off of poles and do this type of technology out here to save the cost of putting up a tower and the cost of going to hearings like this, but it's just not available today. L Tortora: It's not available because of the cable companies? Mr. Gazzo: The technology hasn't reached that plateau. If you want to get into the actual micro-electronics of what goes on, at our frequency range you need to build a certain size amplifier that produces a certain size power output and then you have to have a power supply and then you have to have fiberoptics that go to it. Ail of ~hat stuff. And then it has to fit into a certain size canister and then it has to go to certain antennas that go a certain way. It's hasn't all come together, they are working towards that. Beyond thai point, and your next question would be then why would you put this up here if it's going to be there and then you could come back and do that, it's again, it's not feasible then for an area, for a rurai area. It's just isn't feasible. You'd have to put so many of these to get the type of coverage you'd need, it becomes infeasible. Chairman: I've got a bunch of questions that have to be asked in the audience here. Do you want to address that issue Mr. Villa? B Villa: No. Chairman: OK There was someone on my right. Jim Latham: Orient. I was just picking up on question. You haven't answered Mr. Dinizio's question. I'm still a little vague as to whether you answered it fully, or whatever. The micro cell will not work, or it would be more expensive? PAge 22 - Transcript-.~f NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Mr. Gazzo: Current technology, it will not work. J Latham: It works in the city and other areas, but it will not work out here. Mr. Gazzo: In the city it's located inside of a building. Basically you wire a whole building in the city. You have a lot more space to place all of these huge types of cabinets and it's a much more denser environment. And also the signal then stays inside the building. J Latham: But within a period of time micro cell might work in this area. Mr. Gazzo: Then you go to the other issue of it not being feasible for a rural type area. Chairman: OK, this lady is next. Gerry Woodhouse: Two of the problems that I hear you talking about, one is customer complaints and the other is that cellular phones have gotten smaller and have less power. Which you might not have anticipated when you built the tower in Greenport or Cutchogue, I don't know. So the two questions I have are: one of them, you talk about customer complaints, do you have a number of customers who Hve in Orient or Southold who are complaining or where are the complaints coming from in terms of your customer base? And secondly, if you forecast the future and you must have some sense of where the industry is going, if you built this tower now what else do you anticipate happening in the future that might create changes in the cellular system. Do you forecast you might need another tower in E. Marion or another tower somewhere else on the North Fork, do you forecast that there might be other changes in cellular phones, that they'll get even smaller with less power? What do you see happening down the road and what can you tell us about the customer base? Mr. Gazzo: With the passage of the, and I don't mean to go into the leg'al ramifications of this but, but this is the answer I have to give you. With respect to the customer information, with the passage of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 the passage of what's called CPI Customer Proprietary Information, and what that says is that we've contracted with a customer to provide a specific service and only that service so we are not allowed to at all take any of that information that we have about our customers and let that become public. That's CPI. Your second question, you talked about the industry and where it is going and cellular phones and where they're going. First of all, cellular phones will obviously get to a point where they won't get any smaller because from an aerodynamics point of view, from usage from a human being it won't be able to get any smaller because it won't be able to be used. As far as planning for the area, yes, we do have a plan and I discussed what that plan was briefly; is that we have a spot down here, which we are looking for site in Mattituck. You brought up a very good point about E. Marion and I did study the area and I want to tie in some t~age 23 - Transcripf-OI' NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals of the other things. If we were to put the site out on Plum Island and this is the main reason why we can't do that, what's going to happen, at the current way we engineer our system, if the site were to go at Plum Is. Point what would happen here is you would create a dead spot right in this area. And that dead spot is eaused beeause this is a eauseway. The terrain changes, how ever everyone perceives the terrain changing, I have the data for it, and it changes and it creates a dead spot. So by doing that we would then have a site there and we would need a site here. So this basieaily solves the problem by putting one site we're solving the problem. Chairman: To Mr. Rieger and then back. John Rieger: I don't know how to start but I was very instrumental, I'm a ham radio operator for one thing. I'm a ham radio operator and I was very instrumental in putting up a repeater in Greenport. Now our repeater covers all of Orient, it covers Riverhead, why can't you put your tower on the Greenport tower, whe~'e the Greenport tower is; or get on the Greenport tower. The Fire Station is on there, the Nassau Police are on there, the Suffolk County Police are on there, the hams are on there and I don't know what else is on the water tower in Greenport. Why can't you use that an.d it would give you coverage. Mr. Gazzo: We currently have a site in Greenport on that tower. Mr. Rieger: That's more like it. Chairman: Why don't you put more power on that? Mr. Gazzo: We discussed the issue. It's not an issue of more power. More power in our case doesn't work better. Mr. Rieger: It's height and power, you know that. Mr. Gazzo: And I understand a small amount how ham operators operate, several of them are my friends. We use a pattern of frequency reuse. Mr. gieger: Yes I know the frequency'you use. Mr. Gazzo: No, frequency re-use. Which means that, it's basieally, if you give me a second I'll try to think of an analogy. We're given a set of numbers, the numbers 1-4, and what we have to do is we have to take those numbers and we have to put a number here and we have to put a number here and we have to put a number here. Now as we grow, we have to keep using those same numbers again and those numbers can't interfere with each another. So you know that sometimes you'll get a skip, you know what a skip is. You'll skip for miles, what happens if you get a skip let say in Southern Jersey, what happens to some of your fellow ham operators, they may get bumped off, because you're getting a Page 24 - Transcript-df NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Beard of Appeals skip and you're bumping them off, because you're using the frequencies that have been delegated to their repeaters in their area. Mr. Rieger: But when you get that skip you might have the same trouble right here in Orient. You're liable to get the same problem. Mr. Gazzo: And we're not allowed to do that. Mr. Rieger: Propagation is sometimes very funny. Mr. Gazzo: Exactly, and we cannot have that type of thing happening in our network because our customers will not stand for it. Beyond that, the FCC will not stand for us interfering with other networks other systems. So you understand my point. Mr. Rieger: I understand you're point, and there's another space that you might look into which is very close and it's right by the airport in Orient. There's a windmill and I'm sure that they'd be tickled to death to rent you the land. And that's, what are we talking about, another mile? Mr. Gazzo: It would have to be tested' and evaluated. Mr. Rieger: Well, I built a radio station in 1959, I went all through this. And there is a way. And I found a way. And you must find a way. Mr. Gazzo: There's a big difference between building a radio station and building out a cellular network. It's the same basic physics and you admitted to that about the skip and about your frequencies travelling over many distances on certain occasions and creating interference. We can't have that. So it's very delicate where we place our sites. Beyond that you asked me to evaluate a site while I'm standing up here, you wouldn't walk into a doctor's office and say you had a pain in your stomach and say you wanted to take medicine right now about it, if he said to you he needed to do some testing. So I think that's an unfair position to put on me. Chairman: Mr. Peluso. Ralph Peluso: I keep on hearing that people say that cellular phones are getting smaller and smaller and less powerful. What do you mean by less powerful? Mr. Gazzo: OK In 1984 when cellular was first created many people had what was cailed an installed phone. A cellular phone in their vehicle with an antenna which was external to the vehicle. This antenna was a larger antenna, it had a larger amount of gain as compared to the antennas today and the amplifier and the phone was bigger, larger and was more powerful, thus enabling the customer to travel farther away from the cell, that was called a 3 watt phone. Today the phones have come down in power to six tenths of a watt and even less that that. Page 25 - Transcripf'~u£ NYNEX Hearing ganuary 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals R Peluso: OK What I relate to power, I relate to power OK- the battery, OK, not the wattage that's going out, I'm relating to the battery outlet. If I have a cellular phone and I have a battery that's good for four hours what difference does it make if I can't use that phone because, maybe I need another battery I have to recharge. Do you know what I'm saying? Mr. Gazzo: OK the power you're talking about is a form of power. That's the power that powers the phone. The power I'm talking about is the radiated power phone to phone from your cellular antenna. So, if you just look at it as a quick block diagram you have a block here which is your power source which is your battery, and then you have another block which is basically your receiver or your transceiver and your phone which is basically your phone and then you have your antenna. That powers this to make it do something and then there's a power that comes out of here. As you condense the size of this type of equipment, the output power gets much lower and its a function of the battery because the battery is lower. And that's where the technology is going today. Mr. Peluso: So if the battery is lower, then you can't use the phone anyway, that's what I'm trying to say. And you keep saying the size of the phone, I have a cellular phone as big as a credit card and I'll go to Orient and I'll call you up right now, deal. And then we'll just squash everything. I'll make the phone call here and that's it, is that a deal. Chairman: Gentlemen. I don't mean to' restrict you, but the gentleman in the blue sweater in back of you- I think is you husband. Could you please state your name for the record. John Woodhouse: My question is that by putting these towers up they must have a certain distance that they can cover. The one that's in Greenport how far can that go out, one mile, two miles? What is there coverage or radius of coverage? Mr. Gazzo: OK Based upon the way we re-evaluate the network every year and going back to the ERP or the power the plaone radiates, as that changes, we change the footprint of the site. Basically when you first put up a site what you're looking at is the terrain and the height and the power you're at. So in an environment where there is a terrain condition that's going to.., what I'm trying to say is there is no cutter way to say that every site we put up in the network is going to have a 1 mile radius or every site's going to have a 5 mile radius. The contour of the site changes based upon the environment its in and todays environment dictates that the sites become closer together. Mr. Woodhouse: What you're saying if you put that up in a mountainous area you may have an antenna every half mile. Mr. Gazzo: If we locate the antennas correct. If the antennas are located in the valley of the mountains, yes. If the antennas are located on the peaks of the mountains we're going to be servin~ the airplanes. page 28 - Transcript"df NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Mr. Woodhouse: OK The height of the tower determines the distance that that signal is going to travel unobstructed right? Mr. Gazzo: Right and the power. Mr. Woodhouse: As John Rieger said if you have a taller tower you can go from Greenport to Orient without any difficulty. Mr. Gazzo: Again that's correct with tower, that's called the forward power. That's called me standing on top of the Empire State Building and ... a very good example, if I stand on top of the Empire State Buildings Observation Deck and take a set of binoculars I can look out for many many miles, many miles, I can see points on L.I. but I believe if you were to be standing in Uniondale in Nassau County the possibility of you seeing me on the Empire State Building is pretty dim. And that's what we're talking about. We're talking about the person who has the phone trying to commurficate back to the tower. Mr. Woodhouse: Even if you put this thing in Orient at this point, you cannot tell us the distance that antenna will cover? Mr. Gazzo: Oh yes I can. Mr. Woodhouse: How many miles? Mr. Gazzo: It's going to cover the point from basically the E. Marion point here. If you look at this area right now what we have is white. Basically what I'm intending to cover is this whole area here. And based upon the height the power the elevation I've gone at with the location I've picked, I'll be able to do that. This sites going to cover from the E. Marion point here all the way to the tip of Orient. Audience members: Yeah but who is going to benefit? Chairman: Can we get Mrs. Peluso. Ellen Peluso: Mr. Chairman, esteemed Board members, esteemed experts, OK, I'm a property owner, my property is going to be right. across, my front window look out at your tower. I'm not an engineer or a expert but I'm a property owner and I worked hard for that property. We've been sitting here for 3,4 hours, I'm sure you could speak another 5. We do not want the tower. I can speak for all of us, Yes or No. We don't want the tower and we would like to know how we can just stop it. That's all we want to know. OK Chairman: I have to, with everybody'~ indulgence, I have to take a quick break and it will some people at least a chance. It will give this gentleman a breather. If you have any qualified witnesses that aren't going to make it back here let's use them first after this gentlemen. Mr. H Pachman: I don't understand what you mean Mr. Chairman. Page 27 - Transcript ~f NYNEX Hearing ;lanuary ][6, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Chairman: Welt there's going to be a time restriction. And we're going to have to reconvene this at another time. So that's what I need you to tell me. Think about it. It's not etched in stone at this time. Noise in audience. L Tortora: We may want to ask some of his witnesses at a later date after we've had time digest some of this. Mr. Pachman: Mr. Chairman this is the first time I've seen this process work before this board and I'm very surprised and I'm glad that we're having this dialogue because we want to get as much information out as possible. I've presented many applications before this Board and every town on L.I. and in many of the villages. We present our application and then if there are objections or questions we do that after. I've got 8 people who come out from long distances to present an application tonight. And I think in all fairness to our presentation that we should be allowed to complete our presentation. Ellen Peluso: But you're not answering our questions. You keep saying its restricted information. Chairman: OK Ralph Peluso: I came from 160 miles away to come here. Ellen Peluso" I've been out of my office since 4 o'clock this afternoon. Chairman: OK Let's hold it down. Alright. We're going to take the break. BYe']] come back and we'll discuss it among ourselves OK I need a resolution. Motion made by Jim Dinizio. Seconded by Chairman and duly carried for a brief recess. Chairman: A couple of ground rules please, number one, please no remarks, number two, we are going to limit the amount of questions. We have got to get through the presentation. I assure you if these gentlemen have six more witnesses we are going to be here until two o'clock in the morning. Please restrict it. We are not in any way lessening your impact in reference to what your concerns are. We are just as concerned as you are concerned. Please do not feel you are alone on this aspect. OK But you have got to let them get through the presentation. Mr. Pachman. M. Pachman: I'd like to call Louis Cornacchia. Before I start, I'm sure the Board is aware of one aspect of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 that we've discussed before which we haven't touched on yet, but now becomes relevant with Mr. Cornacchia's testimony is that Section 704 states that no municipality may regulate the placement construction or modification of cell phones on the basis of environmental effects if the I~age 28 - Transcript~of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals frequency emissions comply with the FCC's regulations concerning those emissions and I just say that because that will put Mr. Cornacchia's testimony in some focus. Mr. Cornacchia can you please give us a description of your background, training and experience. Mr. Cornacchia: Yes I've a degree in Electronic Engineering, a graduate of Manhattan College, School of Engineering. I've spent about thirty years in the design and development of ground based radar systems, avionics type communications equipment and navigational equipment for D.O.D.. The last eight years I've devoted in the analyses of cellular antenna installations for the multiple providers within the tri-state area. M Pachman: And you've testified previously before municipal boards in this state and other states, is that correct? Mr. Cornacchia: Yes I have. M Pachman: OK and you've prepared, you've had an opportunity to review these plans concerning the proposed communications facility that we are discussing tonight? Mr. Cornacchia: Yes. M Pachman: And did you prepare a report discussing the radio frequency emissions? Mr. Cornacchia: Yes I did. M Pachman: Mr. Chairman, that's the report that I handed up to you and on the back of that in fact, it also contains your resume is that Mr. Cornacchia: That's correct. M Pachman: Mr. Cornacchia can you please give a synopsis of your report and its results. Mr. Cornacchia: Yes, the report essentially reflects the characteristics of the proposed site. Particularly the type of tower the location of the tower, the proposed tower, type of antennas, the equipment that will be used to drive the antennas and the frequency then which will be transmitted out. M Pachman: Please continue. Mr. Cornacchia: Given this data the purpose and intent of this analysis to create a worst case emission result, such that the analysis will reflect what will be in the event the tower is installed. The absolute worst case highest possible emission that might be, in a sense transmitted within this community. tYage 29 - Transcript -of NYNEX Hearing ~anuary 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals M Pachman: Now Mr. Cornacchia you were familiar with the fact that the FCC has promulgated a certain level of radio frequency emissions and that was done in August of 1996 is that correct? Mr. Cornacchia: That's correct. M Pachman: Can you please tell us how .the radio frequency emissions from this proposed tower will relate to the rules and the levels promulgated by the FCC? Mr. Cornacchia: Yes, to begin with N.Y.S. did not and has no legislative standards. It relies entirely on the FCC emission, Maximum Permitted Expose. Since the congress and President signing into law the 1996 Telecommunications Act and requesting the FCC review the proposed standards which were reviewed and studied by the American National Standards Institute and Electromagnetic Engineers. The FCC did review the proposed recommendations and in fact adopted those recommendations in August of t996 which went into effect in January 1, 1997. The analysis is based on those maximum permitted exposure levels. Particularly in the environment a emission level, maximum permitted exposure level of 2600 micro watts or millionths of a watt per centimeter squared. In a residential community 500 micro watts/cm, sq. particularly for the residential community. The two tier approach primarily was to treat both the work environment and residential community in accordance to the limitations of individuals who either working in the environment who can change their job that are aware of the emission levels. It would be quite difficult for a homeowner not knowing the environment and knowing it obviously, finding it more difficult to sell or to move because of their attachment to the community. The standard now that we focus on is the more restrictive standard of the 500 micro watt/cm, sq. standard we in our analysis assume certain criteria or electronic and waive front emissions that might create the highest possible emission. Not necessarily on a permanent or continuous basis but we assumed that in our analysis. We assumed many reflections that might occur in the change in the atmosphere or any characteristics differ or somewhat change, even though they were momentary we assume they would being occuring 24 hours a day 365 days a year. We assume all channels of transmitting simultaneously 24 hours a day 365 days a year. So when we assume all these worst case conditions and apply them as if they were occurring continuously then the results will assume a condition that will never be exceeded and certainly in real life if one to measure these levels. We'll never really in fact encounter these levels they are usually anywhere from 10 to 100 times less than the maximum permitted, worst case analysis that we developed. The highest possible level we encounter and we assume here that ali sectors have antennas that are transmitting so that we have a circular transmission in other words that it's a uniform transmission in all directions and that the again the transmissions are occurring continuously.. Approximately 2 millionths of a Watt or 2 micro watts/em, sq. which is well over, 100 less than, the more restrictive standard, and just about a thousand times less than the work environment standard which is less restrictive but is still left in our P~age 30 - Transcript~' ~ NYNEX Hearing · 9anuary 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals analysis. We certainly are well within the permitted exposure level. We would never exceed it. And in reality we're well below that standard if one would measure them in the community at certain field points as selected. M Pachman: I've no further questions of this witness Mr. Chairman. Chairman: Does anyone have any questions up here on this witness? J. Dinizio: Yeah, I have a question. Based on what you just told us, the output of worst possible level, what are you operating at at the Greenport tower? And based on that could you increase that anymore to expand your ... Percentage, I don't care if you give me exactly what it is. Mr. Cornacchia: I think you're asking me what would happen if we increased the power level? J Dinizio: No. I'm asking you, You just said that you're operating at I think .02 watts. L Tortora: Micro watts. J Dinizio: Right Mr. Cornacchia: The output the emissions of a particular field point within the community which in tlzis case has a radial distance of about 500' from the monopole. The maximum level that we encounter is about 2 millionths of a watt. J Dinizio: From, about how far from the tower? Mr. Cornacchia: About 500' feet from the tower. J Dinizio: Based upon that is that what the Greenport Tower's operating on? Mr. Cornacchia: It's based on what this tower would be transmitting on. Yes. We also assume for example that, in our ar~alysis we assumed a potential second antenna instillation which would be operating simultaneously. We took that into account trying to make this worst case. So the emissions from the Bell Atlantic instillation if it were to be installed singularly without any other cohabitants on the tower then the emissions level would be somewhere around 1 millionth of a watt not 2 millionths. J Dinizio: Enough certainly to service that area. Mr. Cornacchia: That's correct. Page 31 - Transeripi Of NYNEX Hearing 'Tanuary 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals J Dinizio: That ~ould be 500 times or 200 times less than you what would really need. M Pachman: I think that what Mr. Cornacehia is testifying to is the radio frequency emissions, with all due respect, I think your question relates more to the testimony of Mr. Gazzo and in terms of how they engineer the network. Mr. Cornacchia is merely talking about the radio frequency emissions from this tower assuming the worst ease scenario and the fact that they fali hundreds, depending on the standards, to thousands of times below the maximum standard that has been adopted by the FCC. J Dinizio: That I understand. OK And I recognize for safety reasons and certainly public concerns that you would want to do that. But we're being asked here to make a decision on the information that you give us. My concern is that, this tower is necessary. That you have to prove te us in some reason that you need this tower so the question I'm asking him is if he's basing that on the bare minimum as opposed to the worst ease, is there in anyway some halfway that's still safe, in the existing system that could be utilized? I guess. M Pachman: I think and apologize if.this doesn't answer your question, I think that the way we have to answer that Mr. Gazzo can testify I believe Mr. Cornacchia is testifying what the emissions would be at the power that Mr. Gazzo has testified about and I believe your question asks is to Mr. Gazzo, can't you power up the Greenport site to eliminate the need for this site in Orient and I believe Mr. Gazzo discussed that, and he certainly is willing to discuss it again, I think it would be repetition, or might repeat some of the remarks, but what Mr. Cornacchia is testifying about is at the level that Mr. Gazzo, or the Company needs this site to operate out that at the maximum worst case, how does that relate to the FCC standards for radio frequency emissions. I hope that. J Dinizio: That's not my question. My question is, you are-saying you are operating so much lower than that. Well I want to know well how much closer can... Mr. Cornacchia: No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the characteristics of this site that are being proposed are the characteristics that we installed in our assumptions in our model and in our calculations to develop the worst ease analysis of this particular proposed site. We are not taking any minimum power level, we're taking a maximum power level which is being proposed be transmitted from the antennas of this particular site. · J Dinizio: I understand that, somewhat. L Tortora: What is the power level that you are proposing? l~age 32 - Transcript df NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Mr. Cornacchia: The transmitter will he driving the antennas with approximately six watts. Six watts power, it's less than a night light. L Tortora: Per antenna? Mr. Cornacchia: Per channel L Tortora: Per channel, that's correct. Mr. Cornacchia: The output of the antenna is essentially, because the antennas are directional antennas acting very much like a reflector from a flashlight, a small light source creating a brighter beam, the antenna, the efficiency of the antenna is the directivity of the antenna, essentially collecting the energy and transmitting it into a very narrow flat beam over the horizon. To reach out, essentially. And very little of that energy- reaches the ground immediate to the monopole, that.'s why the power levels are very iow. But as you reach out and you go further the energy is dissipated through the air and it's dissolved and diminished, the law of physics, and so the power level is extremely low as it reaches out several miles. J Dinizio: Can you operate at 10 watts? M Pachman: I think you'd have to defer to Mr. Gazzo. J Dinizio: I asked that question before of the gentleman and he told me- proprietary and suddenly this gentleman here is telling me.. Mr. Cornacchio: A power level is not proprietary. M Pachman: Maybe Mr. Gazzo can up and try and put things in... Chairman: We have one question in the audience for this gentleman but go ahead. Mr. Gazzo: Lou (Cornacchia) is an expert in the field of RF emissions, and their relation to standards that the government has put out there as what is the standards that we're to go by. So Lou is an expert in that area, so what he does is he is' now giving you a report which compares the standards put out by the American National Standards Institute which is a standards body in Washington which has contacted the I.E.E.E. which is the Industrial Electronic. And he's telling you that based upon that standard and based upon us operating at our maximum potential that we're licensed to operate at, he is saying that we are in that case, many many times below the standard. Many, many percentage below the standard. For health aspects only. And to defer back to your question, and I thought we could come around about that, again it's not the importance of what I operate the tower at-- it's the importance of the proximity of the tower to the customer or to the cellular phone, and in today's environment, that proximity can become ranch, mnch closer and we again have noticed in this area - based upon page 33 - Transcript gf NYNEX Hearing ~January 16, ~997 Southo]d Town Board of Appeals several types of tests we've done that we're going to need something in that area. That we do need something in that area. CHAIRMAN: One question in the back. Bob? Just state your name again. BOB HICKS: Bob Hicks. What you're putting forward is cellular, is that right ? MR. GAZZO: That's right. MR. HICKS: Is there any occasion that any of these poles would be used for any other type of transmission? A rental process that would increase this wattage and give you another scenario. MR. : The wattage wouldn't increase. MR. HICKS: Well, with the power level. MR. : Very constant data. MR. : I'll answer half your question, and then he can answer the other half. The collocation issue of increasing other types of transmitters on our monopole is fine with us, and we review that process, and we could do that, as long as it again does not degrade the service we are trying to provide. Examples of that are as, again, we try very hard to collocate with police, fire, ambulance and incoming services to help the community and other cellular providers now a day so that there is not a huge run of these towers put up all over the place unnecessarily. As far as the tower and what would happen -- MR. HICKS: When I'm driving out to the TV station or radio station, would that be a consideration for this tower? H. PACHMAN: No. MR. HICKS: In other words that would be locked out. MR. GAZZO: Right. MR. : They would have to come before the board for the lineal. HOWARD PACHMAN, ESQ.: This board has part of their conditions, when they approve this application, if they do get to that point, has a condition that no one can go on this site with any other use without coming before this board, and they are the ones - the ultimate lot-keepers, gate-keepers, who determine whether this site will be used by any other collocation and what kind of uses can be used on this tower. l~ge 34 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing ~January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. HICKS: In this Communications Act, is there anything in it that will give these people the right to come in, as you elaim that this law does give you. H. PACHMAN: Well, the Telecommunications Act says that you cannot discriminate against providers and it encourages providers to collocate so as not to have proliferation. MR. HICKS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN: We have one question in the back of the room real quick - this nice lady in the back there. (They've answered her question.) OK, one quick question over here. This lady who had spoken before in back of Mr. Peluso? No question. OK. The gentleman in the blue sweater, quick. MR. : Yes, I have a question on NYNEX. Why is the bottom line that NYNEX feels it is this important to put it here in this area? Are they a good samaritan and they want to do us a service? CHAIRMAN: Just state your name for the reeord. MR. : What is their reason for spending all this money? CHAIRMAN: I don't think that's a question for this witness. Could I have your name again for the record? (Not given by speaker). Can you hold that question? (Nodded). Does anybody else have any questions on the board of this witness? No. Thank you, sir. MATT PACHMAN, ESQ.: In that case, Mr. Chairman, we ask that Mr. Breslin to come forth. Mr. Breslin, ean you please give us a brief description of your background and experience in the field of real estate? JOHN BRESLIN: First of all, my name is John BresHn, Jr. I'm president of Breslin Appraisal Company with business offices located at 44 Elm Street , NY. I have a Bachelor's in Business Administration from Sienna College, a Major in Accounting, and also have a Juris-Doctor's Degree from St. John's University Law School. I am a licensed real estate broker in the State of New York, and am also a licensed certified general of Real Estate in the State of New York. (Speaker was asked to use the mierophone.) MR. BRESLIN: I'm sorry if I wasn't able to be heard. I'll start over. (Audience asked him to keep going instead of repeating.) MR. BRESLIN: Basically, my professional practice is that of real estate appraisal. I have been so engaged in that business since- on a full-time basis since 1979. Prior to that in a family business that I was engaged during my period in high sehool and college on a part-time basis. My t)age 35 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals firm appraises real property in Nassau, Suffolk and Queens County. We appraise properties from single-family homes to regional mails and major shopping centers. I have done a lot of testifying in connection with different types of zoning applications, for applicants, against applicants, working for municipalities, as a consultant included in that is the Towns of East Hampton, Riverhead, and I have testified many times in all different types of courts, . Supreme Court, Federal Court, Bankruptcy Court, as well as many times before Town Boards and Zoning Boards in most of towns and villages throughout Nassau and Suffolk County. In connection with this application I have been asked by NYNEX to make a study of this proposed application with respect to the monopole and its potential impacts on real property values. And the first thing that I think that is important for this Board, the term tower is used and described to talk about this structure and I think little reference has been made to distinguish this type of tower from a lattice type tower. This is not a lattice type tower which is the erector set type of tower that you all would originally think of or envision when you think of a tower. A monopole is a singular pole, it's essentially a telephone pole type of structure, it's painted blue with the antenna on the top. And that's what a monopole is and so that's completely from a lattice type of tower, both typically from height and also from its physical appearance. Tape Change MR BRESLIN: It's like a big osprey nest, basically with respect. I will submit a written report when I've completed and in that report are photographs of lattice type poles and mono-poles so the Board, if someone is not familiar with it will be able to see. With respect to this type of construction we've done extensive research on the impact of mono-poles as well as other types of utility type structures on surrounding property values. And when I say other type utility structure I'm talking about utility poles, power lines, water towers, fire whistles and those type of structures. And it has been our experience depending upon the size and scope of structure sometimes there is an original impact that may be felt by that structure but after time it blends in and becomes a part of the natural landscape. And that is actually evident in the town of Southold in various locations. There are, as was. already mentioned by Mr. Pachman in his initial remarks there is a monopole which was recently constructed just to the north of Main Rd. off Elijah's Lane in Mattituck. That property is situated on the corner there is an auto parts store and a old barn that's used as a art warehouse. It's situated directly behind those two buildings, directly across from residential homes on the east side of Elijah La. and then directly to the south of residential homes which are on street that comes into the north called Rachel La. Rachel La. at the time, there were homes on Rachel La. which again I have photographs of this and you can see the homes and the tower directly behind it as well as from the homes on Elijah's La. There is also at the present time new residential subdivision being the extension of Rachel La. These homes, the road has just been cut in, this subdivision is going in and runs parallel at this point with Elijah La. Rachel comes into the west and turns north and these homes will be parallel with Elijah, again in direct Page 36 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing ~January 16, t997 Southold Town Board of Appeals view of this and this is a brand new subdivision that is now going in. In addition to that there is a NYNEX monopole that is situated in Cutchogue on Rt. 48. By the Plumbing Supply situation. The Plumbing Supply house near the dump as the gentleman mentioned, while this is not as closely located to residential properties as the Elijah's La. mouopole it is clearly visible to passers by on Rt. 48 which is one of the main roads. In addition to that there are lattice type towers that have existed. There are two actually behind, on SoUthold Police property on the Main Road to the west of here there is a small one that's in the front portion of the Southold Police property and there is a much larger type lattice type tower that is situated to the north. From looking at it I can't determine whether it is on the Southold Police property or the vineyard behind it but it's directly north of the Southold Police property and that particular tower is clearly in view from Peeonie La. just to the east of that and Peeonic La has houses aiong its westerly side as you move north and those are in direct view of the lattice tower in that vicinity. I've taken photographs of that so you can see that. And there is also in Greenport, which I reaiize is a different zoning jurisdiction than this Beard however I believe its Washington there is very large lattice type tower that is situated directly in the backyards of homes that are situated on that street. The point that I'm making by bringing this up is to say that these type of things, and i'm not sure whether this Board or any of the other peopIe in the audience are aware of these and ff you go by if you're not looking for them the point is you don't see them. Because they become part of what you expect to see. Now in this particular section of Orient on Main Rd there are telephone poles and power poles that are 55 to 60' tall, I'm not sure if anybody realized that directly on the south side of Main Rd in this particular area that is the height of the utility poles and when we're talking about constructing a monopole that would be some 250' south of the roadway, the visual impact of the 55' telephone with the wires on them in some cases there doubled up; to the person standing on the street is far greater than the in the distance monopole which is 250' away which is only 30' higher. In addition in this particular area the other structure that has a high point of elevation is the church steeple that is situated just to the west. That's a clearly different type of structure but the point is that what happens is the height of these structures becomes part of the expected scenery once there a construction. Chairman: Just let him finish the presentation. MR BRESLIN: The second part of the thing is to study; once the monopole goes in and when the monopole goes what's the impact when it's nearby the residential properties. Does it effect the values of these properties. I know the people behind me think I'm out of my mind when I stand up before you and I tell you that it's not going to have an impact. And when I first looked at these, mono-poles are a relatively new in the cellular network. They started off by going on existing tall buildings, water towers or lattice type towers that already existed so they that they didn't have to do this. So the concept of a monopole is relatively new so there's not a lot of them. So before when I was asked to do this I said to Page 37 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals NYNEX where are there existing mono-poles that are nearby residential homes, direct proximity to residential homes. Where do they exist. They gave me a list of mono-poles in Nassau and Suffolk county, again there's not a lot of them. Then I went and researched when those mono-poles were constructed their proximity to residential properties sales of those homes before the mono-poles were constructed and sates of homes after the monopole was constructed. These are alt homes thai are directly, in close proximity to the monopole in far more densely populated areas, or much closer to the monopole than what is proposed here. What I have in summary form I have submitted with my report are three separate maps of those type of situations. Besides these three I researched others and there was no sales data to make any type of comparison at ail. These three are a site in Shoreham a site in Patchogue and a site in Port Washington. I have submitted, I will submit, there are copies of the tax map and I've located with a subject arrow the location of the monopole as well as indicating the parcel surrounding it, their sales prices and their sale dates. Now in each of these cases the mono-poles were instailed in October of '92, December of ~92 and-August of '92 and there are sales both before and after. Now just for a point of clarity, this during a period of time from say 1991 until 1995 when the rea1 estate values in these particular areas were pretty much stagnant or stable. So there was no big up and downs like we had in the previous years of the '80s when we had the big up and then the big downs. So we're taiking about a period of relatively stable values. I think the Board can reach there own conclusions by looking at this data but in my opinion it clearly points out that these mono-poles have absolutely no impact on these property values. And these homes are in the ease in particular of Shoreham, they are situated directly behind the monopole both sides of the street in very close proximity and within view of the monopole. CHAIRMAN: We're coming (for questions) B VILLA: Where in Shoreham is that located? MR BRESLIN: It's on the Rocky Point Fire Department property, the monopole is in the back of the Rocky Point Fire Department property which is situated on route 25A. B VILLA: Alright, but that's a heavily wooded area. MR BRESLIN: The wooded area actually is further to the north beyond the first cut of the commercial properties that are 25A and the houses behind it. There are some trees but it is definitely not a heavily wooded area and the pole is not obscured and I think the photographs will clearly show you that. CHAIRMAN: Are you done with your presentation sir? MR BRESLIN: Basically based on that study it's my opinion it will not have any adverse on property values. I'd be happy to answer any of your questions. t~age 38 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any questions from the Board. L Tortora: Not at this time. CitAIRMAN: This gentlemen I think right here was the first. I don't mean pointing. GORDON PRICE: I live on main Rd in Orient and I live directly in front of this tower. Now this room to the other wall on the outside is approximately 100'. There proposed tower is within 100' of my backyard. And this gentleman, hired by NYNEX to tell me that my real estate value are going to remain the same after, w~tkin a certain amount of time, what five years ten years whatever, is not going to influence my property value at all nor the property value of all the people around us within a good mile and this is what you see here. This is what is known as the monopole that has a nice blue color and everything and it looks like a osprey nest at that top of it and there is nice little fence around the whole thing with this... CHAIRMAN: Mr. Price we (Board) are getting the presentation, we have to make the decision. G PRICE: I'm just trying to say that this is what they want to put behind my house within a 100' of my backyard gentlemen and ladies and I think it's appalling that we're even sitting here listerdng to this stuff happening. I can't believe it. In fact, I'm going to say this to NYNEX. We're all customers of NYNEX and you are coming in here and you're saying "thump" this is us and the hell with all the rest of you people. And that's insane and there are other sites. Now I'm not objecting to a tower here because of your need for a cethilar tower. But I'm objecting to your blatant disregard for the residents of this community. FREDDIE WACHSBERGER: Orient. I wonder if the learned gentleman in any of the research he has done; the impact of one of these towers has been in a designated national historic district such as Orient is, which was designated so more than 25 years ~go. MR BRESLIN: I don't believe that any of the locations that we've researched were in what would be historic districts. No. JOHN RIEGER: A 1640 house is just about a half mile from there. Chairman: Is there an issue that you can deal with in reference to historic districts and maybe you can get back to us, see if there is any change. HOWARD PACHMAN: I've got some information on that Mr Chairman which I will give you in few minutes separately. CHAIRMAN: There's another question from the gentleman in the back quickly please so we can switch. Page 39 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals TOM MURRAY: From a real estate point of view Mr. Breslin, if I were to look at that particular piece of property and ask you what would be the highest and best use of that property what could you tell me? MR BRESLIN: Residential development. T MURRAY: Residential development he said. CHAIRMAN: We don't have any further questions Mr. Breslin thank you. MR BRESLIN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN: You do have a question sir. DAVID MOORE: This is not a question for him but just a generai procedure. At the end of this are we still going to have a chance to get up and talk. CHAIRMAN: Not tonight you're not. D MOORE: You mean they're not going to be here when we talk? H PACHMAN: Oh I'll be here. CHAIRMAN: Well I don't know if all of these people will be here. AUDIENCE: Random comments from audience. CHAIRMAN: Why don't you wait till the end of it and then we'll see how much time we left and we'll see basically .. D MOORE: They're going to walk out the door. R PELUSO: I drove 150 miles to come here OK, I don't care if they have to come back. If I have to come back they have to come back. NYNEX pay them. CHAIRMAN: Pardon me, I am not telling them not to come back there is no one here that is telling them not to come back. My discussion at five minutes to ten tonight was to learned council asking him how much more time it was going to take, OK. In this particular case we are trying to get through the hearing to the best. of our ability. Does anybody over here have a specific question of Mr. Breslin? Yes. Mr. Rieger. JOHN RIEGER: I asked before, do they have permit or a license from the FCC to construct this? H PACHMAN: And the answer to that before sir was yes. J RIEGER: Yes, did you mention to the FCC that this property may be environmentally sensitive? Because before placing a station on land of Page 40 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January ]6, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals environmental importance or that is signifieant in American history, architecture or culture the licensee may be required to take certain actions prescribed in section 1.1301-1.1319 of the FCC rules. Did they go through all that? RANDOM COMMENTS FROM AUDIENCE. L Tortora: The Board has not made a determination under ~he State Environmental Quality Review Act yet. We have yet to make that determination and perhaps in the weeks to come we will. And those are some of the issues that if that is decided, so that will be addressed. CHAIRMAN: This has nothing fo do... J RIEGER: I would recommend that 'the Board write a letter to the FCC and just quote that. Ask them, that they want fo put a tower on to land that is environmentally sensitive that's all, just do that. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Rieger, you are going to have to write us a letter and tell us or somehow give us a letter indicating what you're determination of the words environmentally sensitive. I'm aware it's a historie district, I'm aware that you don't want the tower, there isn't anybody in this world as I sit before you, if we could think of any other place to put it we would put. OK I am supporting you as the public, 100%~ but tell us why you think if is environmentally sensitive and we will write the letter OK. One quick question man, I've got to role. SUSAN MADIGAN: Does my question have to be addressed to Mr. Brestin because I again have general things, I'm afraid I won't get ... I'm president of the Orient Association. I had a long statement here to make but I'm afraid we're going to be running out of time and I don't want to make it in front of friends later on. Are you aware of the memorandum that was given to me by Varnum Riddering Schmidt and Howlett from Michigan, well a) it has to do with zoning. The Federal Communications Act did not exempt telecommunications from local zoning. They keep saying they are above it but the Telecommunications Act of 1996 did not exempt the cellular communications industry from local zoning. This ordinance, wkich I have a web site on, which I will give you a copy of this because if has all information you can get on your web site, but it strongly encourages collocation. Now I know that Mr. Gazzo who was here before said that roaming was something that he was worried about for Fire, Rescue and Emergency. I was told by John .Raynor who is a communications specialist here in Town, thai the Fire, the Rescue the Emergency and the Police transmissions are adequately covered right at this moment, they do not roam, they do not go to Connecticut and are then told somewhere in Suffolk county there is an emergeney. They are at present more that adequately covered in Orient and Greenport and Southold Town. Furthermore if indeed my NYNEX phone or whoever NYNEX's phone Page 41 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, ]997 Southold Town Board of Appeals does have to roam that is not an expense I'm concerned about. What does get service here in Orient, the little white area there~ and a a lot of people here do have a cellular phone, we do get coverage, whether we get it from Southampton, Sag Harbor, if the towers in Connecticut are railer, I don't care. I mean if I get covered here, that is perfectly adequate. The thing about that we're not covered as far as our emergency goes, that does not ring a bell. Absolutely false. But I do have this here. There are a lot of items here that the zoning . CHAIRMAN: May I have that. S MADIGAN: I'll give you a copy of it. It was received by the way in your office here on the 20th of January. It encourages avoiding towers altogether such as was done by the new micro cell technology used at the ]996 Republican National Convention in San Diego where a PCS system as built as part of the cable system and no towers were needed. It also says about setbacks, it encourages placement of new towers on municipai property or in industrial or heavy commercial zones and again as far as PIum Island the Section 704 of the 1996 Telecommunications Act mandates that the Federal Government make available, property, rights of way, easements under its control for the placement of new spectrum-based telecommunications services. It provides that a presumption may be established and grants such requests absent unavoidable direct conflict with government missions or planned use of those locations. So we have been in contact with our congressman Forbes, who has been very helpful. His office called us again this morning. They are pursuing the Plum Island site and I really don't think at this point that that is out of range or out of height or whatever. CHAIRMAN: When are you going to give me another copy? S MADIGAN: I'll give you a copy of this right away. Do you want a letter from Mr. Forbes too? CHAIRMAN: No I have that copy thanks. LINDA MYLES: I just want to make a really short statement. My vision of this, it's not very technical. Living on Main Road opposite where this tower is supposed to be which will be directly in my view. All I think about are all these cars racing along' Main Rd. to get to the ferry, and now we have to be concerned, the people in Orient, have to be concerned that these cars don't have any blank spots. So we can't even get out of our driveways and now we have to sacrifice our aesthetic pleasures and our property values so that they can have proper cellular service. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Pachman. M PACHMAN: Mr. Chairman here is copy of that report from Mr. Breslin. Next witness would be Mr. Fotlis. Mr. Chairman should I proceed. Page 42 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing Uanuary t6, I997 Southold Town Board of Appeals Mr. Follis can you please tell us your background experience and training. JOHN FOLLIS: My name is John W. Follis Jr. I live at 609 Seventh Ave, E. Norhtport NY, I have a Bachelors of Science degree in Landscape Architecture from the N.Y.S. College of Forestry and a Masters in Public Administration from C.W. Post. I've been a professional planner for thirty seven years. Most of it spent on Long Island. M PACHMAN: Mr. Follis, your resume is attached to the report which has been submitted to the Board is that correct. J FOLLIS: That's correct. M PACHMAN: Now Mr. Foilis you've had an opportunity to ~eview the application for the proposed communication tower, is that correct? J FOLLIS: Yes I have. M PACHMAN: And you've also had an opportunity to review the Southold Town Zoning Code is that correct? J FOLLIS: That's correct. M PACHMAN: Now can you please give your professional opinion about how the application fits within the land use framework as determined by the town code. J FOLLIS: I don't mean to lecture the Zoning Board of Appeals OK. Generally Land Use policies in any community are implemented through subdivision regulation, site plan review, architectural review, environmental review and zoning. The Zoning ordinance creates districts. Business Districts, Residential, Industrial and then Sub-districts. They locate these districts on the zoning map which you all know. The zoning code or Building Zone Ordinance as it's called in some communities sets forth the permitted and non-permitted uses. Height, area, bulk regulations including parking and loading. However it is not possible to consider all possible development issues or to render justice when a parcel does not meet the specific i~equirements of the zoning ordinance. In the Zoning Code in the Town of Southold the Town Board anticipated a variety of special uses that may be appropriate throughout the town and that's very important and I think it differentiates possibly between the Michigan case. What we're dealing with here is a special exception, OK, it's not a use variance, it's not an area variance. It's a special exception. The Town Board in its wisdom has decided that there are some uses, cemeteries, public utilities, places of worship, private schools, nursery schools, nursing homes, beach clubs, camps and special exceptions. What they have done is to give you the power to determine where these things go. The special exception provision in the Town of Southold ~pplies to all districts except the hamlet density district, the affordable housing district, and the marine I and II districts. So Page 43 - Transcript '}~ NYNEX Hearing ~January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals throughout the town and all other distriets, the B districts the residential district the 40 the 80 the 200, the special use permit applies, and what that says is that any of these special uses ean in faet go in those areas if approved by you. It's not a use variance it's not an area varianee it's a special exception. What we have today, now you think back, did you ever think that Marconi or Bell envisioned that somebody with this little instrument could stand here and talk to somebody somewhere else with another little instrument. Times ehange. We are now in an environmental situation where cellular communication is no different than cable television, water supply service where we have a 100-125' tanks to give you water pressure, electricity where we have transmission lines, we have the poles that Mr. Breslin mention.ed, This is all part of the infrastructure of a community. And it's up to you people to decide where this goes because the Town Board gave you that power. In fact what they did was they in Section 102.63 which I'm sure you're all familiar with and possibly you have in front of you they said six criteria that have to be addressed. I'm not going to list the criteria I'm going to list the answers or we'll be here all night. The site is an open field with access off Main Rd. Housing in the area is limited to direct frontage to NY 25 and Platt Drive except for a dwelling that's located at the end of a long driveway off Platt Drive. The remaining lands in the area can be subdivided in accordance with the requirements of the RS0 zoning district, c) The proposed antenna will not adversely affect the safety, health, welfare, comfort~ convenience or order of the Town. d) The proposed use will promote the general purpose and harmony of the Zoning Ordinance since the Town Board has declared it an appropriate use in the RS0 zone if the conditions of your Board the Board of Appeals are met. The proposed use is compatible with its surroundings. There is a nearby fire station with a horn mounted on a tower. There is a gas station on Business B property across the street. All struetures, equipment and material wilt be accessible via a driveway for fire and police protection because a fire station is located almost adjacent to the site. The ordinance then goes on in Section 100-264 to list another series of items that you have to consider: a) The district requires 80,000 sq. ft. lots, minimum width, depth, side yard etc. Anything that happened in the area can comply with those items. The items through item (i) have been addressed by previous witnesses. Item (j) there will be no overcrowding or undue concentration of the population. The site will be visited on oecasion by a technician as testified to earlier. The plot area is sufficient for the proposed use. We talked about bending even if the pole fell down, whieh it won't, there is adequate drop zone on the site for that use. The use is not unreasonable when you're a chureh~ sehool~ theater, recreational area or other place of public assembly. It's not unreasonably near. The site is suitable for the use and particularly well suited to meet the needs of NYNEX Bell Atlantic. The building and fence will be screened, storm water runoff is not an issue. There will be no undue disturbance of natural features on the site and no pollution will be created. It is my professional opinion that the proposed monopole antenna meets the criteria as outlin~ed in your zoning code for a Special Exception by this Board. Page 44 - Transcript~df NYNEX Hearing "January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals CHAIRMAN: Thank you. One question here. L Tortora: A couple of things. I have your application for Special Exception before me now and I also have a notice of disapproval on the height. You said it requires no area Variance. That is not what we have in front of us. We have that it does require an area variance. MI{ FOLLIS: You are correct. L Tortora: Secondly, this is an RS0 Zone, correct, minimum sq. footage 80,000 sq. ft., yet somewhere along the line I remembered that you talked about renting a space for 1800 sq. ft. and with the road it would be a total of 4200 sq. ft. What's going to happen to the rest of the land? MR FOLLIS: It's capable of being subdivided by the owner I would presume. L TORTORA: No, what I'm saying to you Rs Are you planning to set aside that entire 80,000 sq. ft. for this principal use? That's the question. MR FOLLIS: No. L TORTORA: Then you are going to need an area variance in my opinion. Could you address that. B VILLA: Another question. If you're saying the drop zone is clear. If you're only renting 4200 sq. ft. that drop zone is outside of your area. MR FOLLIS: There's room around it. B VILLA: I reaiize there's room around it but you have no control over it how do you know if there is going to be something put there? L TORTORA: I'd like him to address their site. This is troubling because it's kind of conflicting with me, because in your application you're discussing that it will meet the 80,000 sq. ft. requirement and yet you're saying you're only going to occupy or rent 4200 sq. ft. and the rest can be subdivided. So I'm very confused. tt PACHMAN: The site that we rent is only as we suggested to you. This is a permissible use on this site. It does not require any side yard variances and setback variances. It is the same as it is in any other town where you have a small particular site and you develop it for its' Special Exception permitted use. The issue that Mr. Villa, had raised about the fall zone. That is not a condition of your ordinance. You have inherently on this Board in its' previous applications have required that a fall zone exists and where it is adjacent to other properties to get consent from the adjacent property owners. We do not need this in this particular page 45 - Transcript of NYNEX Hearing ~January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals instance because the area in and of itself falls within the confines of the area that we are renting and which is owned by our landlord. CHAIRMAN: Can I ask this question. L TORTORA: Go ahead. CHAIRMAN: The unique issue concerning this application is~ that this application is not on municipal property, it is not on business property. I personally thought it was R400 but you're telling me it's RS0, and we will check that. H PACHMAN: It is RS0. CHAIRMAN: OK Good H PACHMAN: I'll go to the zoning map. CHAIRMAN: Alright. OK No. You are utilizing. The use that your are utilizing is in an agricultural residential district which requires 80,000 sq. ft. for use. That's the minimum. That's it. So you have got to utilize 80,000 sq. ft. L TORTORA: Or apply for an area variance. Either way. Simultaneously. That would mean you would have to amend your application. H PACHMAN: Well, that's surprising because when Dan, when the Building Department gave us a reject on this they didn't raise that issue as a condition. L TORTORA: It's difficult to see, I looked through the application and the appearance of the application that the building inspector looked at appears that you would be utilizing 80,000 sq.ft. In fact, aetuatly on the original application it talks about a 10 acre plot. So if there's confusion let's get it straightened out flow. CHAIRMAN: In light of that while Mr. Pachman is looking at that we are going to take another three minute break. Motion to recess made by member Villa, seconded by J. Dinizio. Short recess. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pachman? H PACHMAN: Although we have leased the size of the site as we have indicated to you, my review of the ordinance and apparently your building official's review of the ordinance did not require us to ask for an area variance on this particular site because it is a single use that we are using on this site at this time. At some future date and I don't want to miss-speak on behalf of the owner I can't determine what they are going to decide to do with the balance of the property. But if they 'Page 46 - Transcript' d~ NYNEX Hearing ~ January 16, ]997 Southold Town Board of Appeals decide to sub-divide the property they're going to have to sub-divide it in accordance with your subdivision regulations and go before your Planning Board. In your previous applications for any of the two towers that I have reviewed by searching your record you did not make that a requirement in those particular applications and I don't see why that is a requirement in this application. CHAI1{MAN: Just what I said. They were business parcels. L TORTORA: First of all, as one of your witnesses testified I believe on the Elijah's La. site it was an improved site ~dth multiple uses, therefore that situation does not apply here. Second of all your application was made for a Special Exception here and as you know under NY Town Law you can simultaneously apply for an area variance without a notice of approval from the building department. So I don't know whether the building department reviewed this issue. I am reviewing it now as part of your Special Exception application. And I'm suggesting to you that you are proposing one principal use on a piece of property where the minimum zoning requirement is 80,000 sq. ft. So I asking you, in my opinion, I believe that is what is required here. H PACHMAN: Well, since this is the first time ttkis is raised Miss Tortora we will review the ordinance and submit a memorandum of law on what we believe is the appropriate situation. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention and we'll be very pleased to respond to it in accordance and hopefully we'll have an answer that will satisfy your curiosity. There are two things before proceed along. I am submitting here a visual impact analysis for the proposed monopole site at this location prepared by the environmental consultants Freudenthai and Elkowitz who have their qualifications involved in this and this report speaks for itself. have some photographs in addition to the ones that Mr, BresHn gave you and this is a photograph and it's marked in the back - your lattice Police Department antenna. This is the gas station right down the road from where we are. The Cutchogue poles which we talked about before, here you can see what they look like from the road. The NY Tel Company. tower which is the one on 25 which I told you, ours is much smaller and thinner, doesn't have the. bulk like that and here's another typical tower, lattice tower with all these dishes on it. We are not building that kind of tower. And that's not what they're for. No one of the issues that we should address and we feel it's necessary to address is the Planning Board as part of their memorandum of November 27, 1996 and we just received today their memorandum of (June) January 16, 1997 suggested that the Planning Board is not in favor of the use at this location. The residential nature of the area will be compromised by a 100' structure Both the Planning Board and the Zoning Board should encourage the applicant to find a location more suitable for a structure of this type such as a Fire House or the Plum Is. Ferry. Now I have here your zo~zing map in the key area that we're talking about. This whole area is either, in the Orient site, is either 1{200, 1{S0 it's all residential property except for two sites. One the gas station which you ~Page 47 - Transerip~~ df NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals have a picture of and one on Platt Rd., around the corner there's another business site. No matter where we go in this particular junction for our site we are in residential zones. The more important factor is the Planning Board for some reason which I don't understand, suggested we go on the Orient Ferry or the Ferry for Plum Island and that's an M-1 M-2 Zone. It's not a permitted use. Ptanning Board suggests in an area where we're not permitted. I don't understand that. GORDON PRICE: Because you can get a variance ... faster than you can with an RS0. I knew that for a fact. H PACHMAN: Secondly, the issue in the January 16, 1997 suggested that we use the Plum Is. by itself. That has been testified to by Mr. Gazzo. We would have no objection to go on the Fire House site. We received a letter after we contacted 'the Fire House site and they said they will defer to the Orient Association whether we can go on that site. We haven't heard back from the Orient Association or from the Fire Commissioners whether we can use that site. That's an acceptable site to us. We would consider other alternate sites. We have looked at twelve sites. Twelve sites members of this 'Board, in this location and they either are not available or they're not acceptable. You have the Latham site which is on the north side of main road out further easl and that site is closer to the ferry and it is just as open an area as this particular site and it is not as acceptable from an engineering point of view. There is another site on the north side just opposite that site which is a similar problem. We tested the site which we're on which is the Philips site We contacted the Ferry Service and asked them if we could go on their site. And they suggested that they are already in difficulty and in contest with the town of Southold and they would not think that it would be appropriate at this time for them to negotiate with us with reference to that particular site. CHAIRMAN: Did you deem that to be an acceptable site? H PACHMAN: No. It's in an M2 Zone. It's not acceptable. L TORTORA: It would require a use variance. JOHN FOLLIS: It would require a use variance yes. H PACHMAN: But it's not acceptable from our engineers point of view as to location. AUDIENCE: Why not? H PACHMAN: The Orient Point State Park is a site which through some configuration, if we would go into the wetlands, the bird sanctuary it would have a longitudinal or latitude area whieh would be aeceptable to us but obviously it is not a site that we can go on. The Plum Is. site is not acceptable because of its distance its location our inability to get to it for servicing purposes. And I may be one of the '~ !Page 48 - Transeript~of NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals few people who has ever (Comments from audience). The Fire House site, we would be p,leased to negotiate and talk about the Fire House site. We'd be pleased to collocate their fire siren on our antenna. We'd be willing to eliminate the tower that they already have there and let them collocate on our site. We've done that in many locations. We are on a Fire Department site in Ronkonkoma, we're on a Fire Department site in Rocky Point and they're acceptable sites to us, but they apparently will not talk to us as 1 understand it, and if I miss speak I apologize they haven't gotten the authority or the OK or the aegis from the Orient Point Association. Unidentified person: It's right across from the school. H PACHMAN: That, we'll get to the issue about that, because I realize there is a question about that. I have here a series of eight hospitals and nursing homes where we maintain towers and which they're perfectly acceptable. We are presently negotiating with St. Charles Hospital. And it is perfectly acceptable to put them on top of hospitals and there is no danger. I also have in this packet facts about cellular sites. I also have an article in here where 911 is being tested in New Jersey so you can locate the car just like you can locate a 911 call with a land line. A woman in So. Dakota who was saved and would have been saved much earlier if they were able to locate her location when she used her cell site phone. We have letters of commendation from the State Police we have letters from the Ronkonkoma, Glen Cove Police Dept. showing that all these sites are very important to them. They cooperate with and there are also a series of articles in there, B VILLA: Can you educate me on something Mr. Villa? H PACHMAN: I don't think I could ever educate you Mr. Villa. B VILLA: Oh yes you can. H PACHMAN: We go back too long and.I know that's not an easy chore. B VILLA: Who actually owns the pole? H PACHMAN: NYNEX B VILLA: NYNEX owns the pole. In all cases? You rent the property they own the pole. H PACHMAN: In all cases. We rent the property . Part of the condition and one of the conditions - when our lease is up we must remove the pole and take it away if we don't use it. B VILLA: Then if other people come on that pole they pay you a rental? H PACHMAN: One of the arrangements we have in collocation they would also reimburse us for cost of construction. But they would normally install their own equ.ipment. The building that we house as the accessory Page 49 - Transcrip~ df NYNEX Hearing 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Beard of Appeals structure we would co-tenant that particular building so that we have two uses. B VILLA: Well bow is it proposed some time ago in Orient when they had this big discussion about a previous pole. It sounded to me like the Fire Department was going to eome up with some income. How is that possible? H PACHMAN: That's very possible because if we located on that site we would pay them the rental. B VILLA: Just for your own. But if you hooked other people up? H PACHMAN: Well, that's the way we negotiate the lease. We would be able to sublet it or we could work out some other end. Those are negotiated by our real estate people and Mr. Wayreiter is here and he would be the one that would negotiate that lease with the Fire Commissioners, Matthew Pachman would also prepare the lease and it's not an uncommon procedure. B VILLA: Do you propose to lease the property and erect the build and you're leasing it for five years with options to renew? H PACHMAN: We have ten years with three, five year options. B VILLA: Thank you. H PACHMAN: There's been some talk and I'm not trying to... There's been some statements made to the historic nature of this particular community and I'm not here to contradict the many people who spoke but Freudenthal and Elkowitz who is our environmental planners and consultants contacted, wrote a letter to me, "pursuant to your inquiry I contacted Mr. Bob Kassner of the Town of Southold Planning Department on December 19, 1996 and January 13, 1997 to determine if the above referenced property is situated ~dthin any designated historic district on both occasions Mr. Kassner advised that the site is not located within a historic district. You should also be aware that Mr. Kassner is a commissioner of the Town Landmark Preservation Commission. I also placed a telephone call to Mr. Aliwater of the NYS Office of Parks Recreation and Historic Preservation O.P.R.H.P. to inquire as to whether the subject property is situated within a designated historic district. Mr. Allwater advised that there is no historic district on Main Rd. between Platt Rd. and Narrow River Rd. which is the area in which the subject property is located. Should you wish to discuss this matter further please do not hesitate to call me. So I'm just trying to get the record straight as to this historic district. My witnesses are all complete. I have pretty much presented my ease. . I've tried to show that we've done everything possible and will continue to do everything possible to find another location on this site that meets the criteria. We met with the Orient Association, Ms. Madigan and some other representative, they met with the NYNEX people last week in an effort to show our cooperation, extending our hand. We are not coming in ))age 50 - Transcript~df NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals here in a high handed way. We are coming in here with an understanding that tiffs is a needed site and we've tried everything possible to cooperate and try to find common ground and we continue to hold out our hand to find common ground and if we would get cooperation and understanding we would work in that particular basis. But to constantly state that we are here in a manner which is not in accordance with the ordinance, not in accordance with the best interests of this area, is not true. NYNEX is a good corporate neighbor, it is a good corporate friend and we are doing everything possible to present an honest and sincere application before this Board. And we expect justice and we expect the Board to follow the rules of their own zoning code. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN: MR. Price. GORDON PRICE: Just one point about the historic district. The pole which is 100' away from my house from my property and my house is another 50' from that. My house way built in around 1820 to 1830. Now that's the first part of it. Across the street, down the street about 100 yds is another house that was built in t812 and there are three or four that are in that and that is not a designated historic district but there are an awful lot of historic houses that are there, including mine. DAVID MOORE: Mr. Peluso, Mr. Price and I are probably closest to this because I live right across the street. When I look out the window I look at the field in which this pole is going to be and nobody from NYNEX ever contacted me about the visual impact. They didn't come in my house and stand there and look out and see what it looks like. Alright- So that's where it's going to be. I don't pretend to tell the Zoning Board what to do with these decisions but if they allow a Special Exception for a residential district, this time, they cannot be stopped; they can be forced to grant it every time thereafter. Tiffs is, up till now, it's been business and commercial zoned properties that have had these towers. This is a Special Exception. If the Exception is granted today there is nothing stopping them. On that tax sheet that the FCC sent out on this siting stuff they say, just because you put one in a commercial zone doesn't mean you have to allow them in a residential zone. It says that very clearly. If you grant the exception today forget it, the~'e is nothing that will stop any other communications system from coming here and literally demanding a piece of residential property for this. Since I live across the street I would be very interested to know what they are going to do with the rest of that property. Can the owners then, rent out another 4000 sq. ft or whatever it is to another tower. They can get 100' away. Are they going to rent it out to some other business. There was rumor in the paper that there was already an exception granted for commercial office space there. I don't know whether · that's true. That was in the paper. But can you take this thing and chop it up into five different uses. And I'm afraid that's what I'm going to see when I look out the front door. Now I live in an historic house, but live there since 1968 and I've seen that farmed, I've seen it used for nursery stock, I don't care if the owners want to build a house there, [Page 51 - Transcript ~or NYNEX Hearing January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals great welcome. If they put a barn behind it. They can put their junk behind the barn, I don't care. Farmers do it~ I do it, but this is a blatant commercial use, it's a special exception and if you grant it then I think you will have lost control over residential property in Southold. CHAIRMAN: I need one more comment. Thank you Mr. Moore. And then I have to say two or three things and we're going to cut it because we're out of tape. ELLEN PELUSO: I feel everyone is stressing the property value- monetary. We who live in Orient are there, we could have bought in the Hamptons, bought in Mattituck, further up where it's more expensive. I think where we are is beautiful, it's historic very bucolic and very relaxing. We go there to get away and it's just peaceful and that would just destroy the area. Looking out my kitchen window at a fence and a tower. That's what we're upset about. We're not upset at NYNEX personally. And I hope you don't take it personally, that's the problem. We love Orient and that's why we're there. It's quaint. You don't get that in the Hamptons you don't get that upstate. We've been all over. We researched this property before we bougilt it. And we just love it. And that's the way we feel. CHAIRMAN: OK Just let me take the gentleman in the back. WALTER SMITH: If you had a transmitter in the middle of L.I. Sound, that would sends us beautiful, salt Water, any analysis we wanted. I wonder why they can't put a tower in the Sound for their transmitter. State of the art allows you to do it. And they'd have no problems, the fish would love it. They could put signs on it to New London. Since Southold has a problem with it. CHAIRMAN: The issue that was raised regarding the 80~000 sq. ft. is going to be dealt with and you are even going to modify the application or you are going to come to some fruition in reference to our statements. H PACHMAN: We will review what you said Mr. Chairman and Ms. Tortora and we will try to respond to your questions. CHAIRMAN: Before we leave what are we doing about the Fire Department Site in Orient anything? Is there any question regarding the Orient Association? Yes Freddie. FREDDIE WACHSBERGER: As you know it came up a few years ago and there were pretty convincing arguments why there was not enough fall distance around it for that to be a reasonable site plus the fact that it was so close to the school. It brings up the same question of a historic landscape. This particular site is not literally a historic district but it's like being in a no smoking section when you're in the row just b~hind the smoking section. As you know the historic district is Village La~ and adjacent streets and we're just one block over. It's also at the end of a whole bunch of farms 'that are contiguous farms where the ~Page 52 - Transcript df NYNEX Hearing · 'January 16, 1997 Southold Town Board of Appeals development rights have been sold in order to preserve the historic landscape of farming. The whole zoning that's written in that area underlies Southold Town's commitment to preserving the economic base of second homes, of agriculture and of tourism. Orient has been designated one of the sites in the Maritime Heritage Trail that has just been designated by N.Y. State, by Parks and Recreation. In every single possible way this is the most inappropriate place for this tower. CHAIRMAN: OK I cannot close this hearing because we have not had a chance to look at any of the data that you have given us. H PACHMAN: I understand that. CHAIRMAN: OK So we are very simply going to have to recess it and my calendar, I have no idea if I'll even be chairperson; OK, but my calendar. H PACHMAN: You're leaving? CHAIRMAN: I wasn't planning on it, but, if you read the papers you may get something out of it. H PACHMAN: Let me say this. If I believe some of things these other people said were in the papers which apparently is not true maybe that's not true either. CHAIRMAN: That was very good Howard. Our calendar for February 6th is booked so it's either going to be March 6th. By that time we will have looked at everything. H PACHMAN: Can it be the following week? CHAIRMAN: Send us a letter saying you can't and we'll make a motion on February 6th and reconvene it the fo!lowing date. I have to see when we can get the Hall. L TORTORA: We have other people that are also scheduled. CHAIRMAN: Just send us the letter and we'll put you on special. We haven't mode a motion yet. The motion is reconvene March 6th, however we will be receiving letter from Mr. Pachman to extend that time. I need a second. J DINIZIO: Seconded. CHAIRMAN: All in favor. -~ .......... ::i:L~ ~:L~ MEMBERS: Ayes. Transcript prepared by Patricia Conklin. ~W~~~ Town ~ .... '