HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-08/09/1995 HEARINGPage 1 - Hearing Transcripts
Hearings of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
7:33 p.m. Appl. No. 4319 - Yoshimasa Osato: (Carryover from
July 12, 1995). Proposed addition with reduced front yard setback
at 35 Sunset Way and 3250 Cedar Beach Road, Southold.
Chairman: This is carried over from the last hearing. The board
has certain questions regarding it. I will ask the board members.
It is appeal #4319 if they have seen the floor plan that I proposed.
If you could go down and take a look at the place. The people that
own this house live in New York City and can only come out on
weekends. Any questions at all.
Board Member Villa: No, it makes sense now.
Chairman: O K~ does anyone want
Anybody have any questions on this.
plan. Yes.
to make a resolution on this.
You said, you saw the floor
Board Member Villa: Yes
Chairman: Anyone want to offer a resolution.
Board Member Villa: I will.
Chairman: I'll second. Linda, we have a motion by Mr. Villa to
approve appeal #4319 provided it remains unroofed.
Board Member Villa: Yes.
Chairman: O K
7:36 p.m. Appl. No. 4324 - Richard Mautner. Variance under Article
IliA, Section 100-30A.3 and Article XXlll, Section 100-239.4B based
upon the disapproval action of the Building Inspector dated July 18,
1995.. Applicant proposes to construct deck addition at the rear of
existing dwelling which will have an insufficient side yard setback
or insufficient setback from bulkhead. The subject property is
nonconforming having a lot area of 16,$75 sq. ft. and a lot width of
50 feet. Location: 2055 Bay Shore Road, also referred to as Lot 34
on the Map of Peconic Bay Estates, Greenport: Parcel ID
#1000-53-4-12
Chairman: A copy of the map produced by Robert Van Tuly, pc
amended date May 15, 1995 indicating a renovated two story frame
house. The nature of this application is mentioned in the legal
notice, which extends towards the water, or the proposed deck that
will extend towards the water. I have a copy of the Suffolk Tax Map
iudicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Is there
anybody that would like to be heard? That's better. We do have at
Page 2 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
least one letter in the file from the neighbor and is the neighbor
present? O K, any questions from any board members?
Board Member Dinizio: No
Chairman: Bob?
Board Member Villa: What's that.
Chairman: Do you have any questions?
Board Member Villa: No. I was there basically and the one thing we
should have on record is probably, what they are calling a bulkhead
to me is more like a retaining wall.
Chairman: Right. It's pretty shallow.
Board Member Villa: Because a bulkhead to me generally has water on
the other side of it. This has beach that goes out 100 feet or
more. So I don't consider that bulkhead.
Chairman: Is there anything you want to question these people about?
Board Member Villa: No
Chairman: Do you want to hold this hearing over like we did on the
last one. I don't think anyone is present here.
Secretary L. Kowalski: They are coming from Virginia.
Board Member Villa: Oh the builder is here.
Chairman: The builder is here, Oh I'm sorry. John, do you want to
say anything for the record.
Mr. Mautner:
any.
I'm just here to answer any questions if you have
Chairman: Have you people received the letter from your next door
neighbor?
Mr. Mautner: Yes
Chairman: Is there anything you would like to address on that issue.
Mr. John Bertani: Our concerns are of the neighbor in terms of the
view, we would be willing to compromise certainly and give up the
side deck, that comes out from the kitchen. If that is her main
issue. She seems to say that it's an issue of privacy. Yet, on the
other hand there are an awful lot of bushes that is on her property
Page 3 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
that are fairly tall. So, I'm not sure I understood where the issue
o[ privacy comes in.
Chairman: Is there a particular need for that side deck that wraps
around?
Mr. Mautner: Well, my wife just had both her knees replaced and
the issue was, she can't maneuver steps very well. Having it leveled
with the house, it gave her the opportunity to come out of the
kitchen onto the side deck to where the seating area was going to
be. But on the other hand, she can go through the kitchen and
through the living room, and through the living room if it's flush
with the deck, she can go out that way.
Chairman: O K.
Board Member Tortora: It sounds like if you can remove that little
edge, that comes out, that 3 and one half feet.
Mr. Mautner: Yes.
Chairman: Bob, do you have any questions of this Gentlemen?
Board Member Villa: No.
Chairman: Jim.
Dinizio: No
Chairman: Serge.
Board Member Doyen: No
Chairman: O K, is there anyone else that would like to speak? Is
their anyone else that would like to speak against the application.
It looks like an easy night. Look at this. Ail right. I have no
questions. The deck is going to remain unroofed. You're willing to
take that portion of it off and that basically the issue. There is a
concern about a shower that's there. But I'm sure you want to leave
it there.
Mr. Mautner: That shower has been there when I bought the house
in 1987 so. The record has shown that that shower has been on there
for well over 25 years.
Chairman: Beautiful spot, by the way.
Mr. Mautner: Thank you.
Chairlnan: Anyone want to make a motion of this or do you want to
hold up?
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Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
Board Member Dinizio:
feet.
Chairman: Yeah.
Board Member Dinizio:
Secretary L. Kowalski:
Board Member Dinizio:
Would that be south?
I'll make a motion. Granted, minus the three
What room?
On the side your talking about.
I'm trying to figure what side that is.
Mr. Mautner: The south side, southeast.
Chairman: O K
Secretary L. Kowaiski: What would be the size of the sides of the
deck be, reduced all the way down Jim.
Board Member Dinizio: Yes, I guess.
Board Member Villa: To the width of the house.
Chairman: To the width of the house.
Secretary L. Kowalski: To the width of the house, O K.
Chairman: That it remain unroofed.
Board Member Dinizio: Yes.
Chairman: I'll second it.
Page 5 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
7:48 p.m. Appl. No. 4325 Thomas McCarthy. Variance under
Article lllA, Section 100-30A.3, based upon the disapproval action of
the Building Inspector dated July 18, 1995. Applicant is requesting
permission to exceed lot coverage in order to extend porch addition
to larger than that permitted under Building Permit No. 22881 issued
7/12/95. Property Location: 375 King Street, New Suffolk, NY;
Parcel ID #1000-117-07-8.3; or Lot #3 ol~ the 1994 Subdivision Map.
Chairman: I have a copy of the original format of the house as it
exists, the addition which is the nature of this application
approximately one third or a little more than a quarter of. I have a
copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding
properties in the area. Mr. McCarthy would you like to stand up at
the podium so we could grill you?
Mr. Thomas McCarthy: My name is Tom McCarthy and the owner of
this piece of property and a real estate broker and I maintain my
office in Southold. As you may be aware, this is the third lot of a
previous subdivision that was brought before your board by in 1992,
where you granted subdivision of the original parcel into three
pieces. Two of those three parcels have been sold to residents of the
town of Southold as first time buyers. So they are not vested
owners in taxpayers in Southold town, since this project has had
some benefit for some of the local people that wouldn't have
otherwise perhaps had an opportunity. The third parcel which has
two cottages on it with a stipulation that your previous approval,
that one of the cottages be removed in the front and that is what I'm
in the process of doing. I'm in contract to sell the third piece to a
Doctor who is going to come out and make a home in New Suffolk.
What you see as proofed under the building permit is something that
we are moving forward with. We'll start our building very soon.
The reason for the variance is that he feels that the property will
be better used and more architecturally complete. So the very small
variance that we are asking for is 64 square feet. The lot is a
small lot, although it's in conformity with the rest of the lots in
the surrounding neighborhood. The proposed structure is perhaps
more in conformance with the front yard setback than any of the
other properties in the neighborhood. The request for a variance
will not alter the front yard setback, which we remained in the R40
district. I believe it's 50 feet. The subdivision has had some
other benefits to the Hamlet in New Suffolk. By which it's very
existence,the subdivision had increased the assessed value in the
area without more new construction., which would have the effect of
overall lowering the tax burden on all the people of New Suffolk,
working with just the pieces that we've had on the corner of fourth
and King Street.
Chairman: This is an enclosed porch. Right.
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Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
Mr. Thomas McCarthy: It is an enclosed porch and we are
requesting 64 square feet. We feel the application is very minimal
in nature, and it's a very small percentage. Do you have any
questions?
Chairman: Bob, do you have any questions of Mr. McCarthy?
Board Member Villa: Looking at the preliminary print elevation, this
isn't going to be a year round room in front.
Mr. Thomas McCarthy: It's an unheated space that we're proposing.
Board Member Villa: I see you have scoffers on the bottom, which
means that you have a place where the water can run out of.
Mr. Thomas McCarthy: The drawing that's there that shows the
scuffers,it will be a roofed structure so that the necessary for
these structures, we may not need them, but that's what his
architect had drawn because it is roofed and enclosed and has glass
around it, so you need the scufflers.
Board Member Villa: I was just curious. It's not going to be heated.
Mr. Thomas McCarthy: No, it doesn't have any proposed heating at
this time.
Board Member Villa: That was my only question.
Chairman: Jim ?
Board Member Dinizio: (Nothing)
Chairman: Lydia.
Board Member Tortora: No.
Chairman: Serge.
Board Member Doyen: No.
Chairman: Let's see if there is anyone else that would like to speak
in favor of this application. I see no hands, anybody like to make a
motion?
Board Member Tortora: I will. I will make a motion that we approve
it and the relief sought is minimal.
Chairman: I'll second it. All in favor. (Ayes).
Page 7 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
In the next hage, a Postponement has been requested by the
applicant until 9/13 since engineer was not available for 8/9.:
7:45 p.m. Appl. No. 4317 - Edwin and Donald Tonyes: (Carryover
from July 12, 1995 for continuation). Property location: 55465 Main
Road, Southold. HB Zone District.
Chairman: Gentlemen, I need a motion postponing or continuing
postponement of Edwin and Donald TQnyes, and Ladies I should say
excuse me, second all in favor say aye.
7:50 p.m. Appeal No. 4314 James and Barbara Miller, Contract
Vendees. (Owners/Sellers: Paradise of Southold, Inc. and others).
Continuation of hearing carried over from June 7, 1995 and further
postponement from July 12th per request of attorney for applicant.
Location of Property: 580 Basin Road, Southold, NY, <paradise Point
Section One, Filed Map 3761-4/11/63; also known as 1000-81-1-16.7
(formerly part of 16.4). This request is based upon the March 29,
1995 action of disapproval by the Building Inspector, wherein
applicants are requesting a building permit to locate a new
single-family dwelling, disapproved on the following grounds:
"1. This parcel of 1.79 acres is not shown on the Map of
Paradise Point, Section One, as a building lot: Section 100-281A-7.
Single and separate search required back to 1957.
2. Approval required by Board of Appeals to build single-family
dwelling as a second use on this 1.79-acre parcel. R-80 Zone
requires 80,000 sq. ft of land area (or 160,000 sq.ft.), Article 111,
Section 100-30A.
3. Approval is required from Board of Appeals under Article
xxlll, Section 100-239.4B for location of dwelling with decks at less
than 75 feet from existing bulkhead... "
Chairman: We go over to the Miller application or contract vendees,
Paradise Point. How are you tonight?
Annette Eaderesto: Good evening Mr. Chairman and the Members of
the board. Annette Eaderesto for the applicant. This application as
the board knows, was held for additional information and I believe it
was supplied to the board. And also during the adjournment we had
various meeting with the Association and some of the people that came
in opposition to the application, to see if we could resolve the
matter that way. I don't think we have been too successful but I'll
give you a brief rundown. First I'd like to address some of the
matters the board requested in their last letter. I've giving the
board a new printout of the parcel, and one of the concerns was, in
our original hearing we asked for 51 foot setback from the bulkhead.
What we have done is, we relocated the proposed resident and
removed tile deck to create a greater setback from the bulkhead.
Page 8 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Beard of Appeals
Now what we have is a 65 foot setback to the house itself and a 63
and a 60 foot setback to the deck. The board also asked us to show
some other setbacks in the area. On the surveys presented you can
see the adjoining house has a 58 foot setback. But I've also
pictures is sometimes is worth a thousand words. We have an area
here that shows the area of the point and the other houses in that
area that are, the board can see this, this is the subject premises
and this is the turnaround area which, we will speak of in a little
while. This is where the post house's, this house is 58 foot back
from the bulkhead, this is even closer. And if you look around this
side you can see the houses, this is also bulk headed or closer to
what we requested. Which is now as I said 65 foot back from the
structure, 60 back to the deck, and 63 back to the deck.
Chairman: Maybe I could ask you to put this down here and we will
take a little. I don't know if there is anyone down there, hard
enough to see. Can we give them a couple of files. Why don't you
take these two files. We will take a little recess so everybody can
look at it later.
Annette Eaderesto: Thank you.
Chairman: Thank you.
Annette Eaderesto: So in this way, the applicants tri~d to move the
house back to address the board's concerns with the setback
variance. The board also requested that the land should be shown
on the survey between the easement area, which is used for the
boat basin purposes and what we'll call the building envelope area.
The survey presented shows that, if we carve out the easement area
which is shown as parcel B and we're also not counting that pier area
that was filled land that no one has title to. Then we have a parcel
A, is the building area parcel on the survey shown. That becomes
53,300 square feet and if we were ever to deed off this parcel, which
the applicant has no objection too if the board would look favorably
at this application. If we do this, the delineation of two separate
parcels, instead of the 1.7 acre area, we have a 1.33. acre area left
in the building parcel area. Finally the board indicated that we try
to meet an hash out some problems with the association and some of
the people that came to voice objections at the last hearing. And we
did try to do that. I did meet with there attorney and I think the
association met. But we weren't too successful in addressing or
satisfying what they requested. What the board has before them, is
our last proposal which was for a turning area and a parking area in
the easterly end of the property. It's basically what they use for
the parking area now, although the turning area now, as you can see
from arealsis much further to the west of the property. This
proposal was not acceptable to the people who came in opposition to
this application. We believe that this proposal did address some of
there concerns regarding access of emergency vehicles, access of
utility of vehicles and the ability to turn around. This area would
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Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
have all been improved with a stone blend as the board can see from
the survey provided. It would have been a permanent surface and it
would have been a well maintained surface. It also provided parking
area for the boat basin use. The application as amended, I believe
addresses all the concerns of the board and the residence while still
allowing a proper building area for a lot and this particular lot,
especially. To allow the use of the existing turnaround in this lot
would basically here make this tot effectively prohibit the
development of a house here, because it would cut off the entire
westerly side of this property. We already have some practical
difficulty with this lot because we have a DC problems that we will
have to address if we go further here with setbacks from the boat
basin area. As you see, there has been allot of erosion on the
survey in that area, and we are going to have further variances as
you can see that we just found out about. So, at this point if the
board has any questions I'd be happy to try to answer them.
Chairman: Bob.
Board Member Villa: I'm just waiting here as we go along.
Chairman: 0 K. Jim
Board Member Dinizio: Did you say you're going, to deed this
variance?
Annette Eaderesto: That was one of the requests at one of the
various meetings. If this application was successful and as we show
here, we were no problem with doing a separate deed.
Chairman: Lydia.
Board Member Tortora: What did she say, that the size is
approximately.
Annette Eaderesto: 53,300 square feet and 1.33 acres.
Board Member Villa: That's parcel A.
Annette Eaderesto: Yes, parcel A. The building area. I'm sorry.
Did you ask me for the area of the building area or.
Board Member Tortora: The building area is 1.3, I've got that one.
Parcel B
Annette Eaderesto: Parcel B would be the remainder which was 1.79
so that would come out to .46.
Chairman: Serge.
Board Member Serge: No
Page 10 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
Chairman: O K
Board Member Villa: I do have a question. I think at the last time
I asked if the applicant would consider scaling down the size of the
house. Because the house here is about 76 by 76.
Annette Eaderesto: All right. It's a one story house though, tt
looks, the foot print looks large. We're only even with the reduced
lot area if you just count the 53,000 Square feet. With the square
footage here, we're only still using 10% of this lot for building
area. And we would really, I mean devoted, the plans are here that
were requested. We devoted allot of time to the plans and how this
would sit on this piece of property. We really tried to keep this,
if we can to this size house. But we did address your concern about
the setback by turning the house.
Chairman: I guess that leaves me to ask you a question? I don't
know if we brought the question of easements up before. Have you
run a title and search on this?
Annette Eaderesto: Yes, we presented the title report with the
easements on it the last hearing. There is a deeded easement area.
Chairman: Good, go ahead.
Annette Eaderesto: That is a little bit different then what we have
here because we gave some extra area because it eroded. Also, the
10 foot, where we would like to put our well, that is also included
in the easement area of Basin Road, which if we could deed it
separately, we would like to keep that 10 foot. Basically, the
easement does follow the parcel B area and it is a easement.
Chairman: I appreciate you restating that O K, but I was referring
to mainly the building area itself. Did the title report pick up any
easements within that particular area.
Annette Eaderesto: No, did not.
Chairman: Is there any future ideas you may have in reference to
what you may be doing with the Association or with the Corporation
as it exists so that if the Association or the Corporation gets any
closer in reference to any types of unananimoty.
Annette Eaderesto: At this point, we've tried to. There are two
fractions from the Association that I'm sure you will probably hear
from tonight and they seem, right now that they are pretty far
apart. We're not really part of the Association so we're kind
of in a strange position in that way. We've tried to deal with. I've
met with Mr. Cuddy who represents some of the opposition in the
Association. And we've met with a representative of the Association,
Page 11 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
three Attorney's met to try to work something out, but we weren't
successful.
Chairman: O K I just have one other request tonight which is not a
terribly costly one. It will continue. We would like to seen more
unitimityconceivably. I mean, It's a very unique piece of property.
I'm sure you are going to continue with. If you're not going to, let
us know, that's the situation. All right, O K thank you. Mr.
Miller, is there anything you would lik~ to add at this time?
Mr. Miller: No, not at this time.
Chairman: Thank You. Is there anyone else that would like to
speak in favor of this application? O K Anybody that would like to
speak against the application or constructive comments. How are you
Mr. Charles Cuddy? I would try to have constructive comments if I
may., if I could take a choice. I'm Charles Cuddy and I represent
Mr. & Mrs. Cureuru who have property immediately to the east of the
subject parcel. I also represent Mr. & Mrs Berry whose property is
approximately 250 feet south of the subject parcel. And there are
other people who have joined with them but in particular I represent
the Cureuru & the Berry's. Neither of those people or any other
people I representing oppose land use and it's opposed residential
use of the land. But that involves certain consideratiQns and one of
the considerations is the right of others to or over the parcel of
land we are talking about. I would like to address the
considerations that the board has set forth in it's notice tonight.
You have three considerations. The first one is that the parcel at
179 Acres is not shown on the Map on Paradise Point building line. I
would like to together with the third one, which is approval prior
with the board of Appeal for location of the dwelling with decks of
less than 75 feet. Those two are basically are area type
considerations and I think it brings us to 267 B Town Law. 267 B of
course, is a criteria for granting variance. I'll just quote from
two sections so I can get into the concerns of my clients. One of
those sections says, whether an undesirable change will be produced
in the character of the neighborhood or a determent to nearby
properties, will be traded by granting of the area. Another one
number four, it says whether a proposed variance will have an
adverse effect or impact on the physical or environmental conditions
in the neighborhood. One of the problems that we have and it
relates right to those two considerations is the road. The road that
is called Basin road extends directly from the area in front of Mr.
Curcuru house and his neighbor across the street Mr. Maynard, right
into this property. Initially, I don't believe it was shown on the
maps. On some of the proposals that are presented to the board, it's
not showing either. On the recent maps of the title May 31, and July
26 additional. It's absolutely fundamental this application consider
that road. And I don't think that it can be ignored. I'm afraid
that, that sometimes happens with the way the application was
presented. I would like to offer up and include as part of the
Page 12 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
evidence before you, the map of Paradise Point which is dated April
11, 1963. Can I hand that map over.
Chairman: Certainly
Mr. Charles Cuddy: Thank you Sir. The reason I give that map up
is because it shows on there future extension of the road.
Basically, the road that is paved which' shows on the map Van Tyle,
the latest two maps paved carefully through that property. That's
virtually a unique map. I've gone over that with certain title
company people. None of us, and the people I've gone over with,
have been in the business over forth years have never seen a future
e×tension road on a map. [ think that has to mean something and
they think that has to mean something too. What we think it means
is that it was intended the time that was on there, that people could
rely that there was going to be a road in that fashion at that site.
The people that I represent that lived there for more than thirty
years, they used that road as it is, over and over again. The road
is half paved. It was paved by the Association. The remainder of
the road is paved but it has a turnaround. That turnaround is
indispensable to that part of the community because that how trucks
get in and out. If you go down the roads, Basis Street and related
roads in Paradise Point, they are narrow roads. It's very difficult
to get in and out. In front of Mr. Cureuru house, the road actually
bluffs up or the property bluffs up and it's very difficult to turn.
If the proposal before you is adopted, and this road is done away
with. I'm not sure how you do away with a road that been there and
has been used for 30 years, but that's the proposal. There is a real
problem, and the problem is that Mr. Cureuru is absolutely going to
be affected, and there is not question that he's an agreed partner.
He lives next store, he's going to lose several things. I think if
the road is put in place he's going to lose part of his driveway.
think he's going to have people come in and out of it of his driveway
to turn around. I think that if the plan is adopted before you, he's
going to lose some privacy because the proposal that has been giving
to you suggests that there be parking along the south side of the
road and also into the subject parcel. The only way you can do that
I think, is cut down the trees. So he gets effected enormously by
this as I think do other people on Paradise Point and they object to
it on the grounds that it really, this proposal before you does not
meet the criteria of 267B. I would also like to address the question
that you raise in number 2 in your notice. Approval required by the
Board of Appeals to build a singie family dwelling as a second use.
I don't know what that entails. The reason I say that is because I'm
not sure that's an area variance. It's two uses on a single lot. If
it's an area variance, it's an area variance of enormous magnitude
because it's greater than one half. In fact, if you use a statistic
that was given to you, they just have a third, they have 53,000 out
of 160,000. square feet. So you're talking about two uses. A marina
use which is there and I think that the board if it's not aware of it
should know, that the marina used, is used by the Paradise Point
Page 13 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold To,~rn Beard of Appeals
Association and there are docks that are in that little inlet, that
partly dredged area. And that people come down to those docks
using these roads and this particular lot, the way it is. What we're
proposing now is to put two uses on the same lot. I don't know how
that can be done. I think if you grant the variance your granting
one with enormous magnitude to them because it's less than fifty
percent of the property. I think they have a real dilemma. Either
you grant a variance of that size or else they have to go back and
they have to deed that out, which is what they're suggesting. If
they deed that out, they have a very different application. They
essentially have an application that's a subdivision application
because that lot was set off in 1981. So you can't go back and reset
it off anymore. You got to go back and ask for a two lot
subdivision. One of which would be 53,000 square feet and the other
of which would be 27,000 square feet. You also would have to go
through two area variances. You also would have to go through a
Sequa study to get that. I simply don't know how that can be
done. I don't know how the board can address properly that
question. I think it's a big question. I think it's a hard question
to deal with, zoning wise. I submit to you as the application is now
presented to you, it cannot really go forward. Thank you.
Chairman: Thank you Mr. Cuddy.
like to against the application. O
you would like to say?
Is there anyone else that would
K Councillor, is there anything
Chairman: Against.
Mr. Cureuru: Good evening Mr. Chairman. How are you? Board
Members. A few months ago I was here asking for a time to do
research and we've done some research in that time. Since then we
have had a opportunity to contact several of members of the
Association about what their concerns were, our concerns were with
Lot 1 and the potential The majority of the Association members
have contributed funds to our study on independent basis. The
board at that time did not see fit to grant us funds and that was not
the problem because we preferred independence anyway, which we
maintained. The majority of Association members and the study
group of four members in term was formed to work with Mr. Cuddy
and then work with the Attorney the buyer and the seller. We think
it's been a fairly friendly so far. We have really experienced no,
shall we say confrontation. It's been quite thoughtful. Our board
concern, that most people that we contacted was that every member
felt that the marina area should not be negative impacted by the sale
of Lot 1. The reason being of course, the parking area, the walking
path, the Basin and the Basin Road turnaround extension. If it did
have an impact, it would have a negative impact on all the 23 owners
of the community. As much as that charm that place is that
particular unit area. The first thing we did was try to talk about
the Association objectives as we saw them, the majority. We want
Page 14 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Beard of Appeals
continued of Basin Road. A turnaround at the end of Basis Road or
aquilevant for servicing the vehicles. Plus also the dredging. We
have used that road for over 32 years. We need parking space for
increased numbers of cars, future boat basin docks, and access or
vehicle access to east jetty and that is the point where we
apparently meet some major differences. We recommend presently no
changes to the docks, parking area as a turnaround. If we retain
Basin Road as it has been for 32 years, there will be no cost to us
presumably. There would be no need for increased parking area.
The point is, once you clean out the leaves and so forth, you have
15 feet wide and you can get parking cars along there as well as
getting vehicles going through. So it's been a very operational
order, we've also asked that no landscaping in Association titled
property except by the Association. There has also been interest by
the buyer because he wants the Association easement to be
landscaped and we appreciate that, we prefer to do that ourselves.
We ask that no costs except property transfer costs be born by the
Association, because there is no cost to the road now. Since we
have been paving that way for years. Association funds have paid
for the road.
Chairman: If there was a transfer or a subdivision so to speak as
Mr. Cuddy so nicely put it, and a portion of the property was
deeded out to the Association, you would have . to bear the
responsibility of the tax level you would, wouldn't you.
Mr. Cureuru: We understand that. That we consider an operational
rather than a capitol cost. We recognize also, a special meeting of
the Association will have to be conducted to approve any negotiations
that would be agreed upon interms. That would have to come on
after your deliberation. I would like at this time though, to call
on an associate, Rich Berry whose had a distinguished career with
Grumman. Helped us get to the moon, and he's been our engineering
person, to try to come up with alternative road solutions that might
solve the problem of Basis Road. So I would like to call him at this
point.
Chairman: Sure
Mr Rick Berry: We carried out some studies on alternative solutions
which I'd like to pass out.
Chairman: We need a couple more. Thank you. How are you tonight
Sir
Mr. Rick Berry: Pretty good. How are you. We carried out these
studies so that we could try to overcome the objections of the buyer
or so we can meet our requirements on getting vehicle access to the
turnaround and the jetties. In a nutshell, the green on Basin Road
as it exists, what we have done is say. Let's look at an alternative
where it's shown in blue, which conforms to the land layout in a 6 or
Page 15 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
7 foot level so we don't run into the basin in trying to build up a
road. It begins with the turnaround, which you can see and the
buyer has rejected all these proposals. So that our alternative now
is to go back and use Basin Road the way it exists as recommended
by our Attorney.
Chairman: Thank you, Sir.
Mr. James Miller: I have a summary })f a Map that you were giving
showing the future extension of Basin Road. That was meaningful to
me because, my wife and I, when we purchased the lot #4. I have a
chart here showing #4 that was indicated that this was the map
showing the deed. We bought more property on 1969 from Mr.
Garette Sr. who was then the developer of the property. Using this
map, showing exactly the layout of the land of the road and where
the other 75 feet that I purchased, we purchased to the left or west
of lot #4. So we did purchase more land and he offered me 200 feet
plus Mr. Maynard's property for $50,000.00, no lie in 1968 dollars.
When we did buy 75 feet' for obvious privacy and building a road.
He advised me that I would not buy that if I were you, because there
is no water on it. Of course, none of us knew that threereverse
osmosis would be here. I talked to Bob Villa yesterday about that
process. So we were presented this map. If anyone wants to have
it, I have copies of it. He told me that above Basin Road extension,
was residential and below marina use and we could not build any more
houses there because there was no more room. I excepted that and
we stayed at 75 feet. So I didn't want to mention that particular
thing.
Chairman: O K great. There is a request that I will have of the
applicants before the end of the meeting that I have not had a chance
to discuss with all the board members. It's a pragmatic approach and
sometimes I work from that point. I don't want to enter into, I
don't want them to enter into any more cost either you or them
actually, unless we're going to go forward with this application. If
we're at a complete stalemate and we're not going to go any further,
then I can't see anyone bearing anymore cost, to be honest with you.
O K, is there anyone else.
9:17 p.m. Hearing Appl. N. 4128 - Brewers Yacht Yard. Based upon
the July 12, 1995 Board Resolution, a rehearing is held to
re-consider the use applied for by Brewers Yacht Yard at Greenport,
Inc. on September 2, 1992, under Article Xll, Section 100-121B(1),
Special Exception #4128, for "...food services to it's District,
identified as Parcel No. 1000-43-3-2. Street address: 2530
ManhassetAvenue, Greenport, NY.
Chairman: That file contained information which related and refers
to a decision that was rendered on or about a time that I just
mentioned. It's on a parcel of 9.6 acres on Manhasset Avenue,
Page 16 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Tow~a Board of Appeals
Greenport and it concerns a Cafe. I believe, Mr.Acebo, would you
like to say something for the record. How are you tonight.
Mr. Acebo: Thank you very much Mr. Chairman and board
members. I've got photographs that show the lunch crowd at the
Salamander Cafe yesterday, noon. I'll just let you have these in
case anybody hasn't been there for a little while to let you look at
what the facility looks like. We appeared in front of this board on
October 15, 1992. The purpose of our application was to take a
building that existed on the property formaily known as Pier Yacht
Basin and move that building to an upland site. The plan that I
devised for that building was to lift it up, using some beams and
cribbing and move it away from the water. At the time we purchased
the property this building was used, it was a former farmers house.
It was a two story building, it had been used prior to Henry Pierce
buying the yard, as a family dwelling. It had septic systems along
side the bulkhead approximately 10 feet away from the bulkhead.
Our proposal at that time was to pick this building up and move it
upland and actually place it 102 feet away from the bulkhead. Put a
swimming pool beside it, raise it 4 feet off the ground level so it
would be well above any high tide situations. And develope this
buliding, rehab this building, recondition the bathrooms and were
they primary and sold bathrooms on the property at the time, in the
back of the building. Redevelop those and make them modern and
convenient, leaving the location on the back of the building. We
rehab the interior of the building. We got the building permits. We
got the plans drawn up and we turned it into a snack bar. While we
were doing the construction, we were approached by Claudia Helinski
who entertained the desire to use the snack bar to develope the
Salamander Cafe. We now have a lease with Claudia to operate the
Salamander Cafe. Brewer's Yacht Yard operates the building as a
amenity to the yacht yard. We are 180 slip Marina. We store 300
boats during the winter time. We pay the utilities on the building.
We pay the heat, the light, and the water for the building. Claudia
leases the building from us on a monthly basis, and the building is
predominate]y used for the customers of Brewer's Yacht yard.
think one of the questions is, who are the customers of Brewer's
Yacht Yard. Brewer's Yacht Yard is an opened facility. There are
no gates. The entry way is opened 24 hours a day. We have many
amenities in the yard. We have a small ship's store so that the
public is aliowed and invited to come into the ship's store to
purchase a life jacket, a fitting for their boat, bottom paint for
their vessel. Whether there vessel is on the property or off the
property. It may be at home, it may be in Southold, it may be in
Mattituck, it may be in East Islip. The store is opened to the
public. We sell ice to the public. All you have to do is drive in,
go into the dock master's office, get the key to the ice locker, pay
for the ice and you have made an ice purchase. We have a ice
broker on the premises, Bruce Tatefrom Sag Harbor rents an office
from us and has a yacht brokerage. We get people all over the east
coast who come in to purchase, look or kick tires. We have several
Page 17 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
other amenities. We have a coke machine which is opened to the
public. Any type of activity that a person would like to undertake
as far as yacht yard, full service type services, are available at
Brewer's. Our doors are opened. We offer access to the public
waterways which is Stifling basin to the public. We do not turn any
one away. Those are our customers. We have customers during the
wintertime who have there boats in Sag Harbor during the summer.
Those people also come back during the summer time and utilize our
facility's. We have winter storage people who have boats at there
homes in Southold or Mattituck or Cutchogue, who come back to the
Marina, either by boat or vehicle, during the summer who utilize our
services and our amenities. We feel that we have met to the letter
all the conditions and the stipulations on our permit. We feel we
have moved this building which was intrusive through it's septic
system to Sterling basin and we feel it was a hazard and a determent
to the waterways. We have taken that facility which housed a yacht
club for all there functions, for dinners, for parties, housed the
restroom for the marina. We have taken that facility and moved it
upland. We have installed a septic system that meets all the
required codes to this date. A very expensive septic system and a
quality system that works very well. All that is placed upland
towards Manhasset Avenue. Claudia is running a very very good
snack bar. It seats 24 people which is restricted by the Health
Department. That's the number of seats that are available in the
snack bar. She sells food on plastic plates, another restriction
p[aced on her by the Health Department. She sells drinks in paper
cups another restriction. There is no dishwasher. This snack yard
is an amenity to Brewer Yacht yard. The size limitations that were
placed on this building, by this board were hereto. This building
was the exact shape of the building when it was moved from the
waterfront to 102 feet away from the waterfront. The use of this
building falls into the used description according to the permit.
We're happy with the permit. We're happy with the use and we
would like to continue to operate this building under this permit at
this time and in the future. If any desire on our part to modify the
building, to use it for a different purpose, this permit stipulates
that we would approach this board. We would have to have a new
site plan. We would have to go to the Planning board. There would
be allot of effort we would have to go through to modify this permit
for another use. We would like to have the right to do that under
this permit as is stipulated. I personally have no plans to come
before this board, to change the use of this building, to modify the
use of this building, to change the size. Increase the size,
decrease the size. I have no concern to do that. We're not asking
to do that. But under this permit that would be allowed at a future
date if we so desired and I think that's within the code of Town of
Southold. Those types of things are allowed.
Chairman: During what times is this opened Mr. Acebo. I'm not
talking about, I'm talking about times of the year not times of the
day.
Page 18 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
Mr. Acebo: Right now Claudia's is opened 11 o'clock in the morning,
she's closed Monday. Tuesday is opened 11 till 9 o'clock.
Chairman: No No. What seasons of the year is she opened.
Mr. Acebo: She's opened, she's basically opens when Spring opens,
when tulips start to pop up, when the boaters start to come down to
prepare their boats for yachting season. So I couldn't tell you the
exactly day that she opens.
Chairman: Sometime in April.
Mr. Acebo: Spring, April 1st.
Chairman: 0 K
Mr. Acebo: We are active hauling boats, 300 boats are hauled.
We're active just short of Christmas. I would hope that she would
stay opened to a time, right around Thanksgiving or just after. I
would like, as I stated, the first time I was here, to continue to
use the building as a meeting place for seminars, for sail makers for
engine manufacturers,any type of activity that centers around
boating. We would like to use that building and I've O K this with
Claudia, that we can run seminars during the winter and Claudia has
offered to cater those seminars, whether it be coffee or donuts or a
lunch. We run, we have some, we now have one regatta that we
run. We would like to run a couple of regatta during the summer.
We use Claudia to cater those. We have yacht club groups that come
from Connecticut etc, that want to have a barbecue, we set up.
Claudia caters those, sets up a barbecue outside. I personally don't
see that this operation is any different that what I originally
applied for. She does have a beer and wine license. I requested
that this building have the capability for the person who rented the
building from Brewer's Yacht yard to be able to apply for a beer and
wine license. I was asked by this board, do you want to have a
liquor license, I said no. I don't want to have a liquor license.
By saying that I meant, I didn't want to run a restaurant. I'm a
boat yardmanager. I repair boats, I build boats, I design marinas, I
implement the designs of the designs that I create and I manage the
marina after it's completed. That's my job. I wanted someone to
come in and run the snack bar that we constructed. That I
designed, that I located, that I got approved. That was my plan,
my intention and that what I think we're doing. And also I think
we're doing a very good job of it. I think we're a very good
neighbor in the community. We are one of the few marinas in
Southold Town that has a pump out facility. I'm sure you have dealt
with some of the other marinas and talked to other boards and
discussed with the trustees about the need for pump out facilities.
with the Peconic Estuary program, that's becoming very important.
We have a pump out facility, we have an application in to get funding
through the State for another pump out facility. We have the
Page 19 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
cleanest bathrooms in the town of Southold in a public facility. We
keep our bathrooms clean, so that our customers are enticed to use
the bathroom as opposed to using the toilets on their boats. We also
offer dingy docks to the village of Greenport mooring customers. We
offer that dingy dock to those customers so they don't use the
toilets on there boats in Starling basin and come aboard on our
property, use our showers, use our swimming pool, use our
accessory snack bar as mooring customers of the village of
Greenport. We do this out of the conscience of our environment.
That's where we come from, that's what we're looking for. The water
is our livelihood. We don't live on the water, we make our living
from the bay, the cleanliness of the bay. We also try to educate our
customers about the needs of the bay. We are very involved in
Peconic Esquaryprogram. We're working to help them develope the
guidelines that we feel are necessary. I would just like to see that
this permit stand as it is. Or if some terminology needs modifying,
the board in this permit has allowed themselves to modify this permit
when they see fit, if they see fit. If there is a statement that
needs changing, that fits within the code, the Town of Southold
today, I would be happy to see any terminology changed. That's
really all I have to say. Thank you.
Chairman: Thank you. It's not really in favor or against the
application but is there anyone else either representing Brewer's
Yacht Yard other than Mr. Acebo or anybody else like to speak
constructively toward this restaurant, cafe.
Mr. Steve Helinski: My name is Steve Helinski. My wife and I own
Salimander Cafe. First of all I'd like to present the board with
letters that was written by some of our customers.
Chairman: Thank you.
Secretary L. Kowalski: I'll make down that we received it
Chairman: Thank you.
Mr. Steve Helinski: Some of the things that I was told was possible
problems, is the fact that we advertise. According to my lawyer, the
first Amendment guarantees me the right to advertise. I'm not
breaking any laws in that. I'd just like to go over some of the
stuff that Mike Acebo just said about anyone coming into Brewer's,
this is a potential customer as long as they buy something that is
offered at Brewer's they become a customer. I'd also like to read to
you what the dictionary defines as a amenity. Quality of being
pleasant or attractive, agreeableness, something that contributes to
physical or material comfort, fixtures that increases attractiveness
or value especially of a piece of real estate or geographic
location. Amenity, social curtesy's and pleasantries. I think by
that definition we fit that amenity. Again I'd like to say that all
the food and beverages we serve are in paper or plastic, the utensils
Page 20 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
are plastic. The food, we take a great deal of pride in the food
that we serve and we like our people to come back for that reason.
There are alot of choices in Greenport, places to eat and we would
like them to consider us and they do because of the food. People
don't come to the Salimander Cafe for the alcohol, there is alcohol
in Pier 1 available, but that's not what brings them, it's the
food. It's very casual Cafe. People can be having dinner while
children are coming out of the pool dripping wet walking passing
them to get an ice cream. The neighborhood kids bicycle up anytime
we're open for ice cream and snacks. And that's the way we'd like
to keep it. We're a real community establishment. And the last
thing I'd like to say is, I understand that Mr. Taskerhas a petition
signed by some of his neighbors. Some of the neighbors including I
believe, some of them that has signed the petition, have patronize
the Salimander Cafe and I just can't understand if, what they are
trying to do is close us down to the rest of the public or what.
But, one of the people that signed the Cafe, came to us and
confessed that they did, and I just want to say that they have
patronized us. I think that's all for now. Thank you very much.
Chairman: Thank you Sir. Anybody else would like to speak Sir.
Just state your name for the record.
Mr. Robert Sca]a: I was here, really for the prior.show, not for
this one. When I heard this was on the agenda, I would like to give
you a little background. I was a member of the eastern sailing club
from 1975 to 1983 my former wife is an officer, commodores of it. We
had membership of 100, approximately 100 people or 100 families, I
don't know which. We would have dinner and affairs, right on the
water and we would have anywhere from 100 to 125 people would be
there as the gentlemen from Brewer's said. Toilets were right on the
water. We would invite other yacht clubs to come in and have affairs
and functions with us after regatta had to sail, after races etc.
And when I came back and I saw what they had done there, certainly
the usages of the building that's first class. The positioning of it
is certainly much better than it was 15 years ago. And certainly ifs
it's limited to 24 people, it's a much lighter usages of the land,
the water and the building than it was when we ran affairs for 65 to
125 people. That's all.
Chairman: Thank you. 0 K We'll move over to Mr. Tasker now.
Mr. Robert Tasker: Good evening Mr. Chairman, members of the
board. First I'd like to very briefly perhaps, some of the comments
made by Mr. Acebo and Mr. Helinski. I think everyone would agree
including myself what Brewer's has done to there site is to be
commended. They have done a good job, they cleaned it up, they
didn't have to move the building and get that septic system away
from the water and so forth. That's not the issue, the issue is,
what did they ask for and what were they permitted to do by this
board with respect to food service. Part of this resolve, and
Page 21 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
intend to address this in more detail, but part of it involves
definition. What's snack bar, what's restaurant and so forth.
Second of all, the question is the limitation as to customers of
Brewer's. What's a marina patron as the word terminology was used
in their old application, put in September and as the board
restricted in there decision and I'li address that in detail. With
respect to Mr. Helinski comments, to the effect that one of the
persons that signed my petition, has been to the Marina. I have to
confess that I forgot to sign my petition and so did my wife, but I
will admit that I had been to the Salamander twice. I feel a little
like Jeff Miller did when he was caught out in the fast food
restaurant in Riverhead by a opponent of McDonald's that he wrote
about in the editorial on June 8 in the Suffolk Times. Nevertheless
I was there, it was a good meal. The service was good. It was not
inexpensive considering it's plastic silverware and plates and so
forth. But that's beside the point. They run a good restaurant.
They're just not doing what they were permitted to do by this
board. I've been over to Sandy beach, which is only a stones throw
from Brewer's for more years than I'll admit, but I remember very
well the celebration of V J day. So that can give you an idea of
what that was. I'm here to speak not only on behalf of own interest
but also that of my neighbors at Sandy beach, several of whom are
here. I want to point out that I do not represent them as an
attorney, but merely as there neighbor and friend to bring forth
there views along with mine. As was mentioned earlier, I have
submitted a petition to the secretary with 45 or more signatures who
expressed their opposition to having a restaurant at Brewer's. The
overall concern, of the residents in that area, has been the
unchecked growth of Brewer's over many years. What used to be
marshlands, I can remember when I first got to Sandy beach looking
across, the only thing you could see there was Gil Verde's shack
among the reefs. Now it's a hugh Marina with I believe with 180
boats. I'm not sure if the number is correct, but it's a large
number of boats and it's caused gross changes to the surrounding
area. But what I'm here to address a particular concern however,
not there site plan and general an use plan which is dealt with by
the trustees and the planning board. But the particular concern is
the food service operation. That too has grown like toupee, in
violation of what the board has permit. But the board permitted
exactly what Brewer's asked for and no less. The real concern gets
down to nuisance type things, noise and traffic and change in the
general area, both at the present in terms of the present operation
and what it might become in the future. Incidentally, by the way as I
notedin my written submittal copy, which was giving to Mr, Acebo, I
also have mailed a copy to Helinski attorney because I saw in the
file a letter expressing his interest in these proceedings, although
he can't be here tonight. So they are fully informed of everything
that has been submitted to the board. Brewer's special exception
expired at the latest on October 1§, 1993. Section 100-262C of the
zoning code states that a special exception, which this is, expires
in 6 mouths unless it is extended, but it may be extended without a
Page 22 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
hearing for an additional 6 months. Any extension beyond that
requires a new submittal and a new approval from the board. Setting
that precedential difficulty aside, let me proceed with the substance
of the objections. During the application process, Brewer made many
representations to the board to rely on. John Brewer, the president
said in a written application that he wanted to provide food service
for it's patrons as an amenity. Mr. Acebo said at the hearing, I'd
like to bring someone in to rent the building in the summer and run
it as a snack bar, as a legitimate snack bar. Brewer's engineers at
the project description said, that they intended to provide food
service to customers at Brewer's and they will not produce operating
noise exceeding the local eminent noise level. Over there, in the
exchange beach pond area, the local eminent noise level is crickets
and transformers. This board gave Brewer's exactly what it
wanted. A special exception for quote" An accessory food service
establishment incidental to the principal views marina for it's
marina patrons unquote". Let me digress. What's a marina patron.
This question was raised by someone I believe from the planning
board when asked to investigate the situation at Brewer's. They
didn't report any finding or facts, but came back with the question,
what's a marina patron. I think what the question should really
~neans to ask is, if somebody who doesn't keep a boat at Brewer's,
drives into Brewer's to go into the restaurant, are they a marina
patron. I think that's much the issue that Mr. Aeebo .raised. But I
think that question answers itself when you ask yourself, what's a
restaurant patron. That's somebody who comes either from a boat at
the dock or from a car in Queens like I do, that comes to the
restaurant to have a meal. And I think that by understanding what
a restaurant patron is, you know very well what a marina patron is.
The reason there is confusing between what's a marina patron is
because Brewer's has made it's restaurant a new principal use on the
property. It is not as they were permitted an accessory food
establishment incidental to the principal use of the marina. During
the course of it's back binding~ the board based it's special
exception on proposed use as a quote. An accessory snack bar
incidental to the marina, quote. Not as a principal separate use,
quote, and no other use is included. So Brewer's got, asked for an
accessory snack bar for there marina patrons and that's exactly what
your special exception allowed. Despite getting everything it asked
for however, Brewer's doesn't seem satisfied. The restaurant has
grown like toupee as I feared in 1992 when I originally wrote the
board about the time of the hearing. The Salamander Cafe is a full
service restaurant, a take out restaurant, a commissary for off site
takes. It offers three meals a day prepared to order, with table
service and a wine list, take out beer and wine license. In fact, I
noticed as I drove pass Salamander on the way to the hearing
tonight, at the top of there sign on the road it says, beer to go.
They are advertising publicity, the solitude customers from all over
Long Island. One restaurant guy said, that Salamander is worth the
trip. And I don't disagree. Salamander is a good restaurant. I'd
make the trip. But the Salamander operator wrote to the planning
Page 23 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Tow~ Board of Appeals
board saying quote. Our customers are from Brewer and Stifling
Harbor Marinas and from Manhasset out of the neighborhood, and
from Orient and from Southold. But the Salamander isn't a snack
bar. It doesn't limited it's solicitation to Brewer's patrons as a
amenity and it's not an accessory use as was permitted. Now, in
their attorney's letter to this board, the Salamander suggests that
the board might be responsible if the Salamander were required to
change it's operation because it's an issue of a building permit.
That's nonsense. The Salamander knew exactly what was permitted.
They took care to represent that they were going to do only what
they were permitted to do. There building permit application said,
the intended use was a snack bar. Their architect plans described it
as a snack bar. The building permit gave them permission to renovate
a snack bar as described. The application to the County Health
Department stated the operation was a take out restaurant. That's a
new one. The definitions problems, I know may be a question. I'm
prepared to address those. The zoning codes defines a couple of
different food service operations. One is the take out restaurant
that the most important part is for the sale of foods and t quote, in
a ready to consume state. The Salamander only has food prepared to
order like a restaurant. The codes definition of a restaurant
indicates states that it is not a take out restaurant or a formula
food restaurant. But one where food is sold for quote, on premises
consumption. But the Salamander promotes and provides take out
service and catering off site. A snack bar is not defined in the
code. The definitions in the code are those that the legislature
body of the town decided that it wanted to define in a different way
from there common need. So the fact that they did not define a
snack bar does notmean, there's no such thing as a snack bar. I
don't think that the town defines steam ship's either. But we
certainly have to agree, that there are steam ships whether or not
there is a definition. If the code doesn't define it, we go to the
dictionary. The dictionary defines the snack bar as a eating place
where snacks are served usually at a counter. The Salamander
doesn't serve snacks. It serves four meals at tables and not at a
counter. So the Salamander doesn't seem to fit any definition. The
problem is not the definition. The reason that no definition fits is
because Brewer's is operating a full service restaurant, and a snack
bar and a take out restaurant and a commissary and a beer and wine
store for the general public. Brewer's is doing everyone of these
things. But, this board told Brewer it could only operate a snack
bar for it's marina patrons which is all they ever requested. What
do we ask. What do I ask on behalf of my neighbors. We ask the
board to exercise it's power to the code. To modify, suspend, or
revoke this special exception because it's clear that Brewer has gone
far beyond the scope of its self imposed limits to operate a snack
bar. We're concerned as much about how Brewer's operates as what
it does. They don't seem to pay attention to rules and they go
ahead and do what they want. And they thumb their nose at the
Zoning Board. And aside, I sit on the Board of Directors of a major
housing, private housing corporation in Forest Hills Gardens, in
Page 24 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
Queens and they have ridged constrains on there architectural rules
and regulations of what there members can do. And very recently,
one resident there applied to the architectural board for permission
to put up a fence and when the architectural group went over to
have a look at it and said, by the way, I have to tell you. I'm
going through this but if you turn me down I'm going to do it
anyway. That may be a representable attitude but at least he was
forthright in terms of what he was going to do. Our greatest concern
is noise. Earlier, I'm sure you're aware there was alot of concern
about the noise from the clubs on the docks in Greenport, which
came over loud and clear to Sandy Beach. Most recently, we got
Sharkey's, which is directly across there in the old fish processing
plant. As we speak, live music, live loud music is being played at
Sharkey's and I'm sure just as the people on the sandy beach can
hear it, so can the people at Brewer's. Now I expect if you ask
about music Brewer's would say, we'll never do that, we only want a
restaurant. But three years ago they told the board, they only
wanted a snack bar. And then they go ahead and set up a full
service restaurant with a snack bar, and take out beer and wine
retail operation. Frankly, Brewer's hasn't demonstrated much
creditability as to it's willingness to abide by what it asked for
and what the board granted. Now, the board may feel that it's to
honoris or perhaps too late to make Brewer's to put the toothpaste
back in the tube. But Brewer certainly should never be permitted to
expand at all whether in scope or size or nature beyond it's present
food service facility irrespective of who is the operator or the
lessee. Perhaps some restriction like an enforceable stop expansion
order or like a stop work order, I'm not sure if there is such a
thing, might be acceptable to the people who are concerned. But
there is absolutely no question that any expansion beyond the
present use is totally unacceptable and it's not clear that even the
present usage is acceptable unless some restraints are put on it to
make sure it doesn't continue to grow like top seed. Thank you for
your time and I'm happy to answer any questions.
Chairman: The 24 seats, when you were there because I have not
been inside the restaurant, is that inside the restaurant.
Mr. Robert Tasker: I don't know where the 24 comes from. I don't
know if it's inside or counts the seats on the deck. I just don't
know the count. I'd have to exceed to Mr. Helinskito answer that
one.
Mr. Helinski: We're allowed 24 seats. If we count the outside
seats, they count as half seats. We can have either 48 outside or 24
inside. Or we can have a combination to reach 24.
Chairman: So, what do you have inside now.
Mr. Helinski: Right now. I don't know. Whenever we're going to
have more seats outside, we have to pick up inside seats.
Page 25 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
Chairman: I see.
Mr. Helinski: If it's a nice day, we pick up inside seats and put
more outside seats. If it's a rainy day.
Mr. Painter: There were 8 more seats behind me in that one
picture. You can count the seats there, there were 8 more seats
inside that building that night.
Chairman: O K, you have a question Mr. Tasker.
Board Member Tortora. If you're not happy with the way it is, and
less constrains are put on, what kind of constraints are you talking
about.
Mr. Tasker: Frankly, they have a good operation there. It's a nice
restaurant. I don't ever want to see it get anymore than it is. So,
if that answers your question. I'm not sure what the constraints
might be, but what I want to see is fences. Not necessarily taking
something away from the present operation, but some kind of a
barrier that going to prevent it from growing like top seed.
Chairman: O K just before, can you just hold that question. Do
you have any questions of Mr. Tasker anybody before' he sits down.
O K Thank you, Sir.
Mr. Tasker: Thank you.
Mr. Acebo: I would like to bring the board back to the resolution
that was approved. The floor area, the accessory foods service
establishment is limited to 46 by 60 feet. Requested and shown on
the site plan prepared by Daniel Matches. There is a restriction
that is very confining. That restriction has confined us to
limitations imposed by the County Health Department on the number
of seats for that establishment. If that restriction isn't
confining, I'm not sure what is.
Board Member Tortora: He had mentioned
and expansion. Would you have any
restriction of no live entertainment.
his concerns about noise
objections to additional
Mr. Acebo: Well, I think we're O K. Gerry Garcia died today, and
we won't have the Grateful Dead anymore.
Chairman: He did.
Mr. Acebo: That building had entertainment when Henry Pierce
owned it. Again, I don't want to say that yes, this board yes
should impose that there will never be entertainment at that snack
bar.
Page 26 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
$outhold Town Beard of Appeals
Board Member Tortora: No, in other words. If we put, would you
be opposed to that restriction. Naturally, your free to come back to
this board and reapply it at a later date.
Mr. Acebo:: If that type of restriction fall within the guidelines
of the code of the Town of Southold, I would be happy with that
restriction. If that type of restriction has prescience for this
type of operation within the Town of Southold, I would be happy with
that restriction. If that restriction has a purpose and a meaning
and it's constructive, I would be happy ' 'with that type of
restriction. As I am happy with the restrictions that are already
imposed upon that snack bar at the present time, with the resolution
that was passed in 1992.
Chairman: O K. Any other questions, Gentlemen, Mr. Tasker. I'll
be right with you Sir.
Mr. Tasker: Certainly, right now the decision of October 15, limited
the area of 46 by 60 or whatever it is right now. It's not,
obviously it's limited. But the zoning code permits Brewer's at any
later date to go to the planning board and get a new site plan with a
new restaurant that's twice as big and come to this board and
request a new and different special exception. There is no cap.
And Mr. Acebo, said as much. We'll stay with exactly what we're
permitted because he knows very well he can come back and ask for
more. I don't think that's being straight forward with this board.
It's a non answer.
Chairman: I have one question here Sir and I will be right back.
Sir, excuse me for pointing at you Gentlemen:
Mr. Ernest Painter: I just want to say something. We're the last
house on Sandy Beach, 26 Sandy Beach. My name is Ernest
Painter. Sharkeys Restaurant opened up across the way as the quiet
cafe on the water. We now have, right now at this point I could
make levity of this and say, why don't you come over and we'll have
a party and we'll dance to the music, and I mean it. You can hear it
to that extent. And I'm sure they have been doing this on
Wednesday nights. How do we know it's not going to be Thursday
nights, or Saturday and Sunday night. These things seem to grow.
Like we've been putting up with Claudia's. We had to put up with
Kokokom's which thank goodness there gone. Now we got
Sharkey's. That's what we're a little worried about. I like the
people. Unfortunately, I like the people at Brewer's. They have
been very nice, very cooperative with me on different things. But I
don't want to see a Restaurant expanded over there with music,
dancing. We'll be surrounded by music. What do you call music
from three different directions surrounding your house. A stereo
with three speakers or what. I don't know what you call it but I
don't ever want to see this. I just would like to have you put it
on record that this has been brought up, that if there is a noise
Page 27 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Sout[~old Town Board of Appeals
factor, we're coming back. I've been down there for 50 some odd
years. My wife has been there ail her life. I won't tell you how
many years. She'd kill me. But we know the area. We've seen
what happens. This is not unusual. That something grows, like Mr.
Tasker said like top seed. It starts off small, we're not going to
do this, oh no, we're not going to do that. And the next thing you
know we have a magela. I happen to be a professional engineer. I've
been through this alot of times before, so I just let it go like
that. Mr. Tasker has put a beck of a lot more work than I have.
Chairman: Just let me ask you a question Mr. Painter, while you're
up there. About 6 weeks ago we pulled a special permit. We
actually revoked it at the second night of the hearing on a. I guess
it was supposed to be a sports bar in Mattituck. Now, it certainly
ended up not being a sports bar. Not in any way comparing the
Salamander Cafe to this or anything else, I mean, the operation
there, forget it.When we granted this application, the application in
Mattituck, we did assume ~hat during Super Bowl Sunday, that there
was going to be more cars.
Mr. Painter: O K
Chairman: That they really was going to be more parking. O K.
Unfortunately it emanated into a night club, discotheque type of
effect, so on and so forth. My question to you is, has there ever
been a parking problem at the Salamander?
Mr. Painter: Not that I'm know of.
Chairman: O K Has there or is there presently a novice problem at
the Salamander.
Mr. Painter: No, not that I can tell.
to that point.
I just don't want it to get
Chairman: I understand. O K. The situation that exists is one we
certainly would readdress assuming that we're all there, whoever is
here on that board at that time, all right. Assuming something
happened that would cause it. I mean, certainly Mr. Brewer would
not intend to own this boat yard all of his life. He may intent to
sell it. Mr. Acebo may move on to another boat yard. In New
England, down South, New Jersey, whatever the case. That's down
South also. You know, I can see your concern. I understand it.
Mr. Painter: I would just like it on record. I'd like to get a copy
of the minutes and have it, so when this ever comes up again, we
can refer back to it. Just like the letter I have from October
1992. It's something, I think we all have to look out for. I'm not
looking for somebody to go broke in a business. I'm glad they're
doing well in Salamander's. No problem. But just don't put that
music in my ear every night.
Page 28 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of AppeaLs
Chairman: It really carries over the water to, doesn't it.
Mr. Painter: Over the water is terrible.
across the water.
It just travels right
Chairman: O K
Mr. Painter: And now we got Claudia's. We got Sharkey's. We
don't want it from Salamander's. I think that's a little
unbearable.
Chairman: Where was Sharkey's. The old Greenport Yacht Club.
Mr. Painter: Pardon me.
Chairman: Where was Sharkey's.
Mr. Acebo: Middleton's Harbor Fisher's. That's all I have to say
and I thank you for listening.
Chairman: Thank you Sir. I think Mr. Helinski has a question back
to you personally or statement.
Mr. Helinski: I would just like to say that, as far as noise goes,
on our busiest nights I've walked around the perimeter of th~
room and you can't tell they were there. They're no noise coming
from our cafe. I don't think they will ever be noise coming from the
cafe for the simple reason, that people sleep on there boats. If we
start keeping people on their boats out, giving them a problem, we'll
be out of there. I think that problem that there worried about,
that's going to take care of itself before it ever happens.
Mr. Painter: Excuse me, I think you'll probably hear from your boat
customers the, from Sharkey's.
Mr. Helinski: We probably will.
Mr. Painter: Because they are right across the way.
Mr. Helinski: They know where the music is coming from. We agree.
Chairman: O K ,just so you're aware of Mr. Acebo that any
indication of outside events other than serving people outside, would
require additional application before this board and additional
things.
Mr. Acebo: That's fine. Again, I would like to impress you, that we
may be the largest boat yard on Long Island and most surely have
the highest occupancy rate for slip rentai on Long Island. We treat
our customers properly and one reason we can't have music is
because of because of what Steve said. We cannot drive our
Page 29 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Beard of Appeals
customers out. Claudia's doesn't have slip rental. They have
transient slip rental. The type of people they attract enjoy staying
up till 2, getting very drunk and falling into their boats. That's
not desperation against there business, that's there business.
Expensive drinks and lots of them. We don't make our living that
way. We have slip rental. That is our source of income, major
source of income. And then enticing people to bring their boats for
the winter to park their boats, and Store with us so that the 20
people that live in the town of Southold and work with me, have a
job during the winter time. We cannot scare anybody away from our
Marina. And if we can't scare people away from our Marina, we
certainly won't be affecting our neighbors, because our marina
patrons are much closer than any of our neighbors. And again, I
cannot speak for Jack Brewer. I do not know what his plans in the
future are and that is why I ask you, not to put limitations above
and beyond the normal in customary limitations on a N2 zoned piece
of property, because I think that is unfair for Jack Brewer as a
business man. We, you and I do not know what his plans are in 10
years or 5 years. I don't know if I'll have a job in 10 years. I
don't know if it will be Brewer's Yacht Club. We don't know and
that's not for us to decide. That's, you know. I think it's set up
perfectly. The permit to me is an ideal permit. I'm happy with it
and I think we're living by it.
Chairman: Sir, you have a question or a statement I should say.
Mr. Frank Kelly: My name is Frank Kelly and I'm not connected with
Brewer's or with anybody else here really. But I happen to own a
house which is probably' less than half the distance from the
Salamander Cafe, from the Sandy Beach area cottages, and we
routinely sit in our back yard which is the side closest to
Brewer's. Probably less than 75 feet from the edge of Brewer's, we
have never heard a sound that we could ascribe to the Salamander
Cafe. We have never seen any traffic that we could ascribe to the
Salamander Cafe or indeed to Brewer's. We can hear Sharkey's loud
and clear. It's three times the distance to us from the Salamander
Cafe. So the question of a present noise and traffic nuisance, as
far as I'm concerned, as a neighbor, it doesn't exist.
Chairman: Thank you
Mr. Painter: If I could just rebuff that a little bit.
Chairman: You have to rebuff to the board Mr. Painter.
Mr. Painter: To the board. What the gentlemen just said, I'm not
saying that you can hear any noise either or I've notices any
additional traffic. But I'm sure if they had noise there, you
wouldn't hear it. Then you'd be on the spot to, this gentlemen
here. So we're trying to prevent you being a witness.
Page 30 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
Mr. Frank Kelly: The only noise I've heard is from Brewer's is the
sound of rough slapping on the mask at night, as the wind blows
through the yacht yard and I find that very pleasant. It has
nothing to do with the Cafe.
Mr. Painter: I am not objecting to noise or to car traffic or
anything at Brewer's.
Chairman: Thank you. The last thing, we're going to go with Mr.
Tasker and then we'll with you Sir, in the back. Again, pardon me
from pointing at you people.
Mr. Arthur Tasker: If I may, certainly no one is suggesting that
there is any noise problem at Brewer's. The issue is what it might
become. Sharkey's example, is the best one. We have, Mr Acebo
will not admit that it might become that. He dodges that question.
More particularly from a different standpoint, he misunderstands the
issue. The issue is not what permitted in a marine R2 where they
are. It's what is permitted in the special exception for the use in
the R2 permit. Special exception in an R2 permit, the approval may
include reasonable conditions that the board determine may be
necessary or appropriate to insure that the applicable general and
specific standards and safeguard set forth in this chapter for the
use, can and will be met or adhered to. There is a second issue
which cannot be dodged and that is that, pursuant to 10262C, the
special exception expired no later than October 15, 1993 and that
cannot be ignored. There is a third issue and that is, the
Salamander, Brewer's has permitted the Salamander to become a new
principal use. It is not an accessory use and the board cannot ignore
that fact. It must deal with those. It cannot simply say, we're not
going to put any more conditions on it. tt has to address expiration
and principal use as much as anything else as well as a way to avoid
the growth that will create problems in the future, and we cannot
ignore any of those. Thank You.
Chairman: Sir
Mr. Douglas Moore: My name is Doug Moore and I live directly
across the creek on Stifling Street from Brewer's Marina. And I
don't keep a boat in the marina so my contact with the restaurant is
just a customer on the street. We enjoy going there. We like the
opportunity to be able to go on to the property and as everyone it
seems, pro and con tonight, it's an excellent operation. I think
most of the concern is for the future of what might happen, and I
think all of those issues can readily be addressed under the current
set up for expansions if a restaurant facility will be built or
whatever. A night club, outdoor music, whatever. That can be
dealt with in the future. So I think all of the concerns in not what
is happening now and what is not permitted but what might happen
in the future, and I think that can be adequately dealt with in front
of this board or whatever the board has to say.
Page 31 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Tow~ Beard of Appeals
Chairman: Can I just ask one quick question. Is Sharkey's in the
Incorporated Village.
Mr. Douglas Moore: Yes it is.
Secretary Linda Kowaiski: What is he talking about, possible
condition, advertising we were discussing. (inaudible) Everyone is
talking at once.
Chairman: We're sorry about this little conversation. I have
nothing further. We thank you for your courtesy and we are, I am
in sincere hopes that the Salamander remains just as it remains. We
will kick this around and I use that phrase rather figuratively. We
may as Mr. Tasker might say, propose something that may
legalistically straighten out some language, tighten things up a
little bit, but nothing that I'm a little toward the issue of hoping
that his successful business is continue. This is a world where,
many successfulbusinesses haven't continued and when we have one
that's working right as long as it's not abusing anything we'll let
it continue. That's just an opinion. It's not a motion or a
decision or anything of that nature as long as it's not hurting
anything. Hearing no further comment I make a motion of closing the
hearing and reserving decision. All in favor Aye.
Note: request from attorney has been received to withdraw the
following application: 8:05 p.m. Appli. No 4321 - Frank
Palumbo, as Contract Vendee (Owner: County of Suffolk/Mary
Murphy). (Carryover from July 12, 1995 as requested applicants,)
Proposed insufficient front yard setback and setback within 100 feet
of the L.I. Sound bluff. Also requested is acceptance of certain
improvements pursuant to Town Law Section 280-A for access by fire
vehicles over a private right-of-way or other easement area, when
such right has been confirmed for use of and improvements to
purposed easement area. Property is located along the L.I. Sound,
north of lands of Bokina and north of Oregon Road, Cutchogue.
11. Deliberation and Decision carryover: 10:05 p.m. Appl. No. 4316
Oscar and Beth Blevins. This is a variance based upon the May 11,
1995 Notice of Disapproval issued by the Building Inspector for
permission to relocate dwelling and garage addition which will have
insufficient front and side yard setbacks, Article lllA, Section
100-30A.3. Location of Property: 640 Haywaters Drive (and Mason
Drive), Cutchogue, NY; County Tax Map Parcel No. 1000-104-5-23.
Zone District: R-40. Note: Hearing was concluded as to further
testimony on July 12, 1995.
Board Member Villa: How far do you want to go?
Chairman: I don't know. That was a question that one of us had
concerning that and that was the reason I asked the question. We
Page 32 - Hearing; Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Town Board of Appeals
really only have a standing wall at this point.
saying.
You know what I'm
Mr. Oscar Blevins: He has the floor down, which is maybe 2 by 10
or 2 by 12, we have that down, which would have to be moved if you
wanted. But I don't know. Are you talking a couple of feet or
yards.
Chairman: I'm not talking yards.
Board Member Dinizio:
property line?
Could you get a ten foot setback from the
Mr. Fabb: Well the thing is, it's sitting on an edge of a piece of
property so we're sort of strapped, so I can't go towards the water.
And the only way I can go is to cut into the parking lot. I have a
parking lot there where cars go in and unless I have a cesspool in
there, which is connected to the other house, I would have to. If I
move the house, what would probably happen, the thing would
probably be sitting on top of the cesspool that's in the parking
lot. I mean, anything is possible. But we'd have to move the whole
house.
Chairman: Let's see what else developes through the hearing Mr.
Fabb. Thank you. Is their anyone else that would like to speak in
favor of this application. Anyone that would like to speak against
the application. Sir, would you state your name for the record if
you wouldn't mind.
Mr. Frank Lisen: My name is Frank Lisen. I have property of a
house, full time house that I live in that is two properties away.
Not directly adjacent but one next to that. The property is really
50 feet away from this house, because the property between it is 50
feet. I really don't like to stop anyone from building on there
property. They live there. Mr. doesn't live there, we do.
We put up with a lot of problems, with this property with the rental
people over the last ten years. It's a string of things. Starting
with stolen motors, ranging back to loud noises. If you don't live
there, you don't have to be concerned about it. If you do, it's just
present. My well is directly in back of my house. It's been there
since the house was built. It's probably less than 50 feet from the
or 60 feet from his sewerage and his has been there for awhile. The
only point is that if he's going to keep full time people in these
houses and I don't think this was initially a full time house.
Secondly, the big house has three families on it, not one. And I
found that out, not because I'm nosey. But when my motor was
robbed and I found it next door, when the police went with me, I
knocked at the door figuring there is only one person there. Well
the guy in the middle floor told me, well I know it's not the girl
that lives upstairs, it's the guy with his son downstairs. So, this
is not a one family dwelling. It's a three family dwelling and then
Page 33 - Hearing Transcripts
Regular Meeting of August 9, 1995
Southold Tow~ Board of Appeals
he rents full time to the cottage that burnt down and currently has a
family in a lower cottage that was fixed up this year. So, currently
there are two people in it. But there has been at times four or
five. That's my objection. It's not a R1 zone or a R80. It's
really much bigger than that and basically that's my objection.
Chairman: Thank you, Sir. Anything you would like to say about
that Sir. 'A. ny alterations about this board any changes or movement
of the house whatever the case might be, an application will be
required before this board. Other than something of second story
nature on the house. How's that sound.
Board Member Dinizio: So, you want me to make a motion.
Chairman: Yeah.
Board Member Dihizio: I'll make the motion. All in favor say Aye.
Prepared from tape recordings.(by Noreen Frey - who was not present
during the actual meeting).
RECEIVED AND FILED BY
THE SOUTHOLD TOWN CLERK
DATE/-~.P-~ /~iO~:~-/~.,
Tow~ Clerk, Town of Southold