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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-06/08/1994 HEARINGPUBLIC HEARINGS BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS TOWN OF SOUTHOLD June 8, 19q~ (7:30 P.M. Hearings Commenced) P R E S E N T: HON. GERARD P. GOEHRINGER Chairman SERGE J. DOYEN, Member JAMES DINIZIO, JR. Member ROBERT A. VILLA, Member RICHARD C. WILTON, Member LINDA KOWALSKI, Clerk-Assistant to Board Pacje 2 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting,- June 8. 1994 Southold, Town Board of Appeals INDEX APPLN;# APPLICANT PAGES 4235 4234 4246 4245 4249 4240 4241 4243 4098 4248 4247 4239 KlM, FALLONand CYNTHIA.SUTRYK 3-10 ALEX and MARION.WIPF Io3 ~/3-"? 11-19 LKC CORP. and-JASTA. INC. 19-29 GEORGE and SUSAN TSAVARIS :~o- ~.~ 29-33 DEPOT ENTERPRISES, INC. 33-41 SANFORD and-SUE-HANAUER ~-0-~,- "/ 41-59 JOHN CROKOS I 59-72 RICHARD LAN 73-82 MOORE'S LANE' HOLDIN(;, CORP; 82-85 TONY and MARIA KOSTOULAS 86-91 TONY and MARI,A KOSTOULAS 86-9~. HUGH T. and CAROL L. CONROY 91-123 MARGARET BEST a~I:'ADYLYN SYVER$ON 1231132 Page 3 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals Appl. No. u~235 KlM FALLON and CYNTHIA SUTRYK. (Hearing Continued from May 4, 1994). This is a request for a variance based upon the April [[, 199~ Notice of Disapproval from the Building Inspector to locate accessory building in the front yard area. Location of Property: 3200 Soundview Avenue, Mattituck, N.Y.; County Tax Map Parcel 1000-94-2-5. 7:30 P.M. (The Chairman opened the hearing and read the Legal Notice and application for the record.) KlM FALLON and CYNTHIA SUTRYK: MR. CHAIRMAN: On the Agenda is a recess hearing from the last ',earing meeting~ Appeal No. ~235. I see these two nice ladies sitting ~n front of me is there anything you would like to add to the record. I have to ask you to use the mike and I know when we were here the last time we didn't have the luxury of having you here. KlM FALLON: I was not able to be here last week .... . From what I understand I think there might be a little bit of a disagreement on the survey. I had written in corral and the definition of the corral is incorrect on where I had placed it. The corral in the turn out area where the horses would be throughout the day it is not where it is placed on the survey. That is a riding area and it's only half the size of what is on the plan. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. Can you modify that for us in someway? KlM FALLON: It would be about 100 x 90; it is a riding area. 'R. CHAIRMAN: That would be where the corral is at this particular .... Page ~ -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals KlM FALLON: That's correct. It ..... allows 200 feet. It only goes out about 100 feet, has an area for instructional riding only. Instruction is maybe once or twice a week the most or riding on a discipline area. The turn out for the horses run south from the barn; is estimated at 10 x 30 feet. That is a turn out or/corral. There's two runs, each are 10 x 30. MRS. KOWALSKI: There within that 100 x 200 area? There outside? KlM FALLON: No, no ma'am. They run south, south of the barn. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you just come up here one second? So what you're saying is that this is actually cut in.half? KlM FALLON: Yes, that is basically cut in half. MR. CHAIRMAN: So, we're talking something like this. KlM FALLON: That's where it should of been. That's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK, so this part isn't going to be used, this is out? KlM FALLON: No. Not fenced, it's not fenced. MR. CHAIRMAN: Not fenced. KlM FALLON: That's correct. This would be the fenced in area for instructional or discipline riding. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. Now that is still a 4 foot fence? KlM FALLON: That's a ~ foot fence. That's correct. The turn out is this area here which is where the horses will go in and out of the barn on their own which is only 10 x 210 x 30 and that runs south. That is over in this area here. Nothing to do with this area here, so the horses on a regular basis would only be in this little area right here on a regular basis. The rest of the time they would be ridden Page 5 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals in this area here or eventually perhaps on other parts of the property with riding of course but on a regular basis. It's just this little area right here. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Is there another fence on the corral? KlM FALLON: Here? BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Yes. KlM FALLON: Yes, this will be fenced. A · foot fence. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Could you show that on there if we give you a ..... ? KlM FALLON:It says ~ foot.high turn out. 30 x 20 and there's two of ~hose there because the barn only has two stalls. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right, you're Kim, is that correct? Just watching my hand OK, I'm cutting this in half, just as I did on that one and I'm saying that this is out. KlM FALLON: There will be no fence there, that's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right, this will be grass. KlM FALLON: That's correct, right now it's wild flowers. MR. CHAIRMAN: No fence? KlM FALLON: No fence. MR. DINIZIO: Will this be a fence here? KlM FALLON: That will be a fence there, a 4 foot fence. Basically up to ..... that's right. Yes, you're even over farther because I, what I have it measured out the property comes to right about here, but ~nyway it's 100 x 90 is what we have, give or take a couple of feet. Page 6 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1991~ Southold Town Board of Appeals Right, that is the flattest area of the property, the property is not flat it's not a level piece of property. MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand, OK, and everything else is pretty much the same? KlM FALLON: That's correct, the horses on a daily basis would just be kept in this area here. The barn may go out to a turn out. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. OK. There were some oppositions to this. I just want to give you a copy of it if anybody would like to come up from that group. Just for the hearing sake again we had of course asked Cynthia, I hope you don't mind me using first names again to go out and discuss this with the people in the area in the surrounding neighbors and so on and so forth. We were talking about a one and a half story structure, the upstairs you're using for storage? I think we iterated the last time. CYNTHIA SUTRYK: Of the barn? MR. CHAIRMAN: Of the barn. CYNTHIA SUTRYK: The barn is just under 18 feet high. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK, and the upstairs will be utilized for the, for the keeping of store of hay and any other grains that would be used in conjunction with .... . CYNTHIA SUTRYK: And the barns are architecturally designed to suit the home itself. It compliments the home. MR. CHAIRMAN: Good, utility in the barn would be water, no electricity? CYNTHIA SUTRYK: That's correct. That's all. Therels just one .... . Page 7 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: No heating of any ---. CYNTHIA SUTRYK: No heating, no drainage, no heating, no sewage. Water will not go into the barn, the water would just go right from the house to the outside of the barns and there will be like a pump on the outside of the barn. There's no water on the inside of the barn but for fire purposes and insurance purposes we must run an underground pipe to the barn. And as far as lighting, it's just whatever is necessary for lighting, perhaps a smoke protector or something as in the plan. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. Thank you. Is there anybody else who would like to speak in favor of this? Any other comments from the neighbors? Thank you for clearing that up by the way. DAVID DiSALVO: The main concern we had was the number of horses and wind problem as the situation is kind of unique for us and the neighbors. We wanted the Board to define for us exactly what accessory use of horses means, MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. I can not do that for you tonight. You can write us a letter and ask us that question and we will probably refer to the Building Inspector. If he can't answer it and then heql refer it back to us. It is not a specific question. The problem that we run into Mr. DiSalvo and I apologize for this, but it's kind of like putting us on the spot. There are some tenure people here. This gentleman, skipping this gentleman ts a very, very dear friend also. This gentleman has only been on the Board 38 years. Is it 38 or 39? MEMBER DOYEN: ~0 years. Page 8 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: I~m sorry. Lt0 years OK. I've only been on the Board 11~ years and the other gentlemen have various tenures, right. It would involve at this particular time a corpus, we would have to discuss these things and this is something that I do not want to really enter into. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: You may also need a new application for interpretation. MR. CHAIRMAN: And it may need an application for interpretation, but that may be a possibility if you want an application as a group, or an interpretation of what an accessory use may be, a generic accessory use, OK, then that could be a possibility. MR. DiSALVO: Right. We do not want to deny them the barn. I think we all agree on that. Our concern is how many horses in the future and how they be used and where they be kept. While we don't want to turn around and be sorry that you know could sell the house or in the future have to lock the horses and extend that riding area or pick a corral over there. We donmt want to make a mistake and have future regret that we didn't oppose it or have some type of limitation as we oppose in the addendum for the compromise letters so that would really depend upon the definition of accessory use whether or not we would want to carry this opposition any further or push for the proposal that we gave you earlier. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just remember that when we make a decision the decision is based upon the present code as it exists to day and we're suggesting that that decision not violate any of the specific rules Page 9 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals that are within that code as it stands at this particular time. I'm sorry I'm not using the mike and so therefore we would assume and again that most people generically follow the code and that is the case and so you know, that's where we are at this point. MR. DiSALVO: And, if Ms. Fallon's new proposal, right, if I understand it correctly what we're proposing really intersects with that but it does then limit it from, it limits it in essence extends their rear yard and then just limits it to that so it offers us some protection in the future. MR. CHAIRMAN: Wonderful! Good. MR. DiSALVO: So I don't know where we take it from. We, we, what do we do at this point, we applied for a ...... . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well it appears to me that your concern is something that may occur in the future. OK, so your opinion, your concern at this particular point may concern something in the future and I don't mean to be redundant. Therefore, if you want that interpretation you should ask us for that interpretation in writing and it may be the nature of an application of where we may take a significant amount of testimony from several people including a ..... association within this town and that's where it's worked before. We've talked about agricultures as oppose to aqua cultures and so on and so forth this is not unkind to something that we're use to but I'm happy that we've at least gotten to that point on this situation at this particular time so I mean that's something that you as an organization or a group of property owners should really concern and Page 10 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals the decision is going to be generic it's not going to be unique to this particular piece of property because what's unique to this piece of property is also unique to many other pieces of property of the same size and magnitude. You know that's a 5 acre lot. LINDA KOWALSKI: If you want to stop in tomorrow and I'll tell you how to do that. MR. DiSALVO: OK, because if there was, the question that they can put ~, foot fence anywhere on the property and keep the horses there if they're giving accessory use for the horses in the front yard and what we were aiming to then do is give them an ample rear yard by defining it by the terms we gave you which then it doesn't matter where they put the fence within that area and then we thought also if they keep the horses clean and it's not a problem and I mean they want to ride the horses or even let them out you know, I think at that point most of us would just look the other way and not say or deny that you've got to be with the variance. We do want to meet them on this and get this behind us. MR. CHAIRMAN: Good, thank you very much. Is there anybody else who would like to say anything else concerning this application? Seeing no hands I'll make a motion closing the hearing re~serving decision until later. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll second it. Mr. Chairman: All in favor. MEMBERS: Aye. Page 11 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199t~ Southold Town Board of Appeals 7:35 P.M. MR. CHAIRMAN: The next appeal is on behalf of ALEX and MARION WIPF and again that's a recess hearing from the last regular scheduled meeting. How are you tonight Mr. Wipf? ALEX WIPF: Very well, thank you. Listen I want to apologize for not being prepared the last time. I realize that there's a certain formal aspect to the presentation herein. I became aware of it as I went along and I hope for a better presentation this time. I also have some appreciation at this point of what you gentlemen are doing which is preserving as to the best of your ability the Town Laws as it's written and hopefully not letting something go that's of variance go that's in such violation that it'll come back to bite you. I've been in the position myself of being in the Union where people come in and ask for variances and I'm in exactly the same position. I know what it is that you're dealing with and at the same time I hope that what you'll do is keep an open mind when it comes to the nature of this hardship. I'm an artist, it's very difficult to communicate with people who work a regular life 9 to 5 and get the money like they get. How we make our money, how we look at things and hopefully you'll keep an open mind and see if you can get the nature of the hardship that from my point of view. Jim came out at my request and he spent some time and threw some numbers around and what I've come up with is slightly different from what he's a, what the numbers that he came up with and I think you have a copy of it don't you? Page 12 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199q Southold Town Board of Appeals Have you been out to see the way that its been, the way I strung it up this time and I measured it off? It's basically the a tilted property, I mean tilted the building, the south east corner of it is 28 feet from the property line, the north east corner is 39 feet from the property line and it is 5 feet from the side property line. One of the things that I was trying to get some clarity on was the actual size of the property. It is, and I think if you check with Linda because Van Tuyl --. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I saw the number. It's over 21,000 square feet. ALEX WIPF: No, it's not over square feet. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: That's what Mr. Van Tuyl told me. He called. 21,000, it's 2,000. I mean 20,675 That's without the wetlands though. That's if you delete the wetlands. ALEX WlPF: Well, it's interesting to talk about the wetlands alongside the property because the way that its been surveyed it's surveyed Lt5 years ago. I mean it's not the same, it's not there anymore. (Silence period.) BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: It's surveyed below. It's surveyed below that wetland area though, so if you include the whole lot line to line from line to real line, it's 21 .... . ALEX WlPF: Yes I know and the reason that he did that was because there's a tremendous amount of erosion up there and I said to him "How much would it cost to go back and survey this thing and it was prohibited", so what Itve got to do is I've got to hope that Page 13 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals you will view this property as being 675 square feet over what qualifies me for a 35 foot foot setback rather than a 40 foot setback. It is very close, it's the kind of thing that you come to variance forthwith and I hope that you will be sympathetic to the closeness of the setback. In addition to that there's another thing that Jerry Goehringer pointed out that I was, I just didn't think about, was that my property line, my roadside property actually starts 12 to 13 feet beyond where the actual road begins. Now I realize legally that doesn't mean anything. It, it's not important. The only importance that it has is in terms of illusions. Now I know that your concerned about how things will look. If you grant a variance that looks like it's a variance then you're going to have to deal with people you know saying what's the story, he got it. Now I know that you, you've given variances before that are you know, that are concessions and what I'm saying is that this does not fall into the same area. With that 12 or 13 feet you're talking about even with the initial piece that I asked for you're talking about 18 feet plus 12 which would be 30 feet from the road literally and at this point you're talking about the closest spot of the road being 40 feet literally from the road. Legally it doesn't mean anything, I appreciate that, but from a perspective point of view it doesn't create a situation where I'm going to create a problem for the town in the future and I hope that you will look at it that way. I've tilted the building in the way that I have because when the building Page 14 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals was up by the road closer to the road, the height of the trees pretty much took into the count the height of the building in terms of the sun, the path of the sun. Now, as I get further back down on the property to get full advantage of the path of the sun if I tilt the building I get a better angle on the path of the sun and also I took, Mr. Villa you're consideration of mine that you don't want to look directly into a garage. This is on an angle you won't see it that way. I mean anybody going by has to look over their shoulders, if there going north on West Creek and they will not see it from a north cross. In addition to that, Jim had talked about why don't you cut down the size of the building. To be honest with you, I, I'm not in town all the time. I'm an artist, I work, I'm an actor, I work, I worked in Europe, I worked in Germany this last winter. I was there for three months. My boat was on the lawn, my car was in my brother-in-law's driveway. I mean you read about people coming along taking your motor, god knows what else. It's something that is not only an insurance necessity for me it's a practical necessity for me. I need some place to store my stuff, so that's really why I need a 2 bay garage. I mean I'm primarily concerned with the garden I'll be honest with you, but I really do, if I'm going to do this I need to create a structure that works for me. Now, if you accept the 35 foot setback, if you accept the 675 square feet, if you look at it as a 35 foot setback, what I'm asking for is 7 feet towards the road and it goes 16 feet towards the side property. It is a very small variance, it's a 55 square foot variance. I know if you look at it as a 40 foot Page 15 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals variance it makes it much more. It changes the percentages, but I hope that you won't do that considering how small a piece over the 20,000 square feet that I have. Now just let me finish this off by talking about a little about the way I look at things, the nature of the hardship and I know this was very hard to communicate. From an artist's point of view what we do, how we make our money is we look at things, we see things in a particular way, we create things out of that, I work with photographs, I work with dry flowers, I work on the stage and what happens is that people give you money. It's really a wonderful way to live but it's difficult for people to understand. So, when I look at this plot of land I don't look at it as a you know a place for posies, I look at it as a canvas. Now, I originally plotted a 20 foot by 60 foot canvas which is being cut down considerably. Just some very practical things in terms of the dried arrangements I spoke to Jim about this a little bit, I don't think he got it. There's a whole new technique for dried arrangements. You can get free, you can freeze dry delicate spring varieties. Lilies, what's it name, peonies. They can be a very, very ludicrous way of doing arrangements. Hopefully that's something I~m going to have an opportunity to plant. I'm looking for very interesting varieties. I'm not looking to create a junk yard. I'm looking to make something beautiful. Another thing I have a friend in Atlanta who is a garden sculpture. She's looking for a situation where we can create a garden with her stuff and I would love to have that happen so that if somebody in East Hampton and she's, she~s dear believe me. You Page 16 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L~ Southold Town Board of Appeals know what's look at something in place they'll come over and look and they'll look at something that's beautiful to look at and therels some commission involved in it. It's not something that I'm going to have in my basement, but I mean it will be something that's up and standing and beautiful for somebody to look at that could possibly mean some money in my pocket and that's something that I always you know think about. Therels a friend of mine down in Virginia, his name is Brent Keith whose got a place called Daffodil Mart, 20 years ago he started to fool around. He showed me a piece of property that was 20 foot by 20 foot, he said that's my retirement. Now it's possible to take you know if you have the vision, if you have the imagination, very little space and make it into something and that's what I'm hoping to do. I~m trying to take advantage of it. Please, with everything that's you know 675 square feet that growth frontage that's really my spiel, that's all I have to say, I hope that your sympathetic. If you have any questions about what I said I'd be glad to, you know. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just again for the record we're talking about a one story structure? ALEX WlPF: No, it's a two story structure. It's a two bay garage with a storage space. MR. CHAIRMAN: And the maximum utility youql have in the building is electricity? ALEX WlPF: Ah, yeah, I think so. It may be some water, if it's a garden, you know, if it's convenient for gardening. Page 17 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. Good. I don't really have any further questions. Any of the Board have any further questions? ALEX WlPF: Can I get a sense of how you feel on this cause I got, I got an SPA loan that's got to be spent by mid July or I lose it. I"m up against it and if I lose this -- BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: 2nd of July. ALEX WlPF: 2nd of July. If I lose this I'm, I'm dead in the war. MR. CHAIRMAN: We assure you will have a decision, Don't have a sleepless night please. OK, really, honestly. ALEX WlPF: All right, so what do we do, just wait and find out? By the end of the evening you think or is it afterwards? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, it depends upon the lateness of the evening we're doing pretty well at this point and weql let you and actually know. ALEX WIPF: All right. The way that it works because every foot you shove it back I lose two feet in the back because of the slope of the line, that's, I guess you understand that so I'm not going to ramble on anymore about this. MEMBER VILLA: I just have a question. You said something about you wouldn't see the garage doors. You're not going to put them on the side of the building, you're still going to have them in the front, right? ALEX WlPF: Yeah, but, but on the angle. You're going by like this you'd have to turn over this way or you'd have to turn your head this way. Page 18 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER VILLA: You're keeping the opening where you proposed it the first time, out to the street, on the left of that telephone pole? ALEX WIPF: Ah,---- MEMBER VILLA: Right of the telephone pole? ALEX WlPF: Well actually it would be right in the middle of the telephone pole. I've got a deal with you know LILCO next. If I succeed here LILCO is my next job. MEMBER VILLA: Well then it's going to go straight out the street, right? ALEX WlPF: Yeah, but I think what would be, I~ve, I~ve got a driveway there now if I can get rid of that telephone pole lsd make it 20 feet wide instead of 10, but it's the same thing expanded however much I need. I don't know, I like it being hid, I like it and if I keep the thing straight I~m going to lose that tree and I don~t want to lose the tree. OK? MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr. Wipf. Wait a minute Mr. Dinizio has a question. ALEX WIPF: Yes, Jim. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to clarify that you know the 35 foot was in agreement between you and I and not just suggested on my part. ALEX WIPF: I apologize, I apologize for saying this. Jim, Jim said to me, he came in and he was absolutely right I had no idea about the you know, about the actual footage that was involved between us and I was unprepared for that visit. I had no, I had never laid it out. I Page 19 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals didn't think it was that complexed and then when I started to measure it, I said wait a minute this is not that far off, this is you know, this is only a little triangle, I didn't even know what we were talking about 55 square feet. If I had, Jim, I, I was not prepared and I apologize for that. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I just want to make the record straight that it was an agreement between the two of us that 35 feet, not a suggestion on my part. ALEX WlPF: No, no, no, I, I, you know, I'll tell you the truth you know what Linda said is reflexible and I still am reflexlble. MEMBER DINIZIO: OK, that's all I had. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Is there anybody who would like to speak against this application? I see no hands I make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. MEMBER VILLA: Second. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor. MEMBERS: Aye. 7:55 p.m. MR. CHAIRMAN: The next appeal in on behalf of a,2u,6 which is LKC Corp. and Jasta, Inc,. This is a request for a Special Exception for permission to establish a drinking establishment use as listed under Article XI, Section 100-101B in an existing principal building. The Page 20 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals subject premises is nonconforming with a lot area of approximately one-half acre and 115+- ft. frontage along the north side of the Main Road and is located in the B-General Business Zone District. The property address is 6955 Main Road, Laurel, NY; County Tax Map No. 1000-122-6-36. I have a copy of the survey produced by East End Drafting and Designs which is merely a site plan indicating the approximate placement of the building and a request by the Planning Board as per the Zoning Code to include the driveway area and the bluff areas in the front of the building and I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. The date of this site plan is 4/19/9[~. Is Mr. Lubkuecher here? Who would like to speak? Who wants to speak? Could you state your name for the record? KENNETH COUDREY: I'm the President of LKC Corporation. We've owned the property for about six years now. It's been vacant and we would like to make some improvements to the property. It was at one time a drinking establishment and you know we'd like to a get a CO for that purpose. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. For the publics information, this was the former Razmataz Restaurant in Mattituck and a in making the application before us is that a, turning this building into a sports bar, is that correct? KENNETH COUDREY: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK, James you're on. What would you like to say for the record? Nothing like putting you on the spot, right? Page 21 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals JAMES LUBKUECHER: point. KENNETH COUDREY: I, I don't have anything to say I mean at this He has Liquor License already, he's got the approval from the Board of Health, he's made a tremendous effort you know, he spent a lot of money and a for that matter so have we, you know, we're paying the property taxes on this building for the last six years. MR. CHAIRMAN: has any specific OK. I'll turn this over to Mr. Villa and see if he questions. We have for the audiences personal opinions here or information we did spend an extensive amount of time with these two gentlemen at the site and we did express to them our concerns regarding the parking, our concerns regarding the occupancy level of this building and in general the entire renaissance of rehabilitation of this building as it concerns us and the health safety and welfare of the people and that's the reason why we're really not grilling the person at this particular time. Does anybody on the Board have any questions for these gentlemen? MEMBER VILLA: I'd like to know the, we have a site plan before us, what is the status of this site plan with the Planning Board? JAMES LUBKUECHER: They're waiting for a, you're decision. KENNETH COUDREY: They pretty much told us that it was you know, acceptable to them. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Bob, we just got a letter today from the Planning Board and we have copies of it. MEMBER VILLA: When are you hoping to open up? , Page 22 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals JAMES LUBKUECHER: 4th of July. MEMBER VILLA: That's what your target is? See, actually as we expressed when we were there you have an entrance way on the east side of the building and an outlet going back on the main road on the west side and parking calculations by the Planning Board puts two parking spaces right next to the building. I'm a little concerned that when cars are coming in there that if somebody is trying to back out of one of those spaces you're going to block out traffic right out of the main road. JAMES LUBKUECHER: What about if we dedicated those two spots for employees' parking only? This way it would be fixed and cars would be fixed there and there wouldn't be ..... MEMBER VILLA: Well that's a thought but are you going to want to try and take up some of your spaces for you know. You got actually, say you need 25 spaces and you -- KENNETH COUDREY: He's also thinking of you know, having valet parking and someone controlling the parking, he would do that. MEMBER VILLA: Like I said, we expressed our concern, it's in a bad spot of the road there. KENNETH COUDREY: Right, right, there's a bright light, there's a bright light on the road there so you know the lighting would be you know pretty much there. MEMBER VILLA: Yeah, but it's still dark at night when you come around there and you sail on the east and all of a sudden you've got somebody stopping ~n front of you it's going to be a little bit Page 23 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals hazardous. I would like to see that egress because people want to get in and they should be able to get out, get in off the road quickly without having a bottleneck. KENNETH COUDREY: He's, he's rented the property next to him and he's got plenty additional spots over there and I mean he can utilize that. He is going to have an attendant there to you know, he's going to have valet parking to control, you know, if, if he does that king of volume. MEMBER VILLA: OK, and our other concern was how you're going to limit the occupancy of the building, that's the thing? KENNETH COUDREY: He's going to have to enforce it. You know he's going to a. There's a lot of places that, that limit the occupancy. You know, he' going, you know he's a capable person and I'm sure that he'll limit and he'll give you his assurance. MEMBER VILLA: OK. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. The only concern that I didn't discuss, I had a couple other things but the only other thing that I didn't discuss was the access by fire vehicles to in and through and throughout the parking lot and that's where there is a concern. That may be addressed in the decision, all right. Can we physically get you know emergency vehicles in and around the building? KENNETH COUDREY: I think so. I mean, we're going to widen the spots, we're going to remove viewer at the site, we're going to remove all of those shrubs along the fence, make it wider, right, you know, considerable, ---- may be able to go through. Page 24 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: We may include that in the decision. We may ask you to park the car on both sides of the building and weHI bring a truck down on a Monday night and see how the access is around then. There is a concern with that. KENNETH COUDREY: The problem is that, you know, before we can do all this work we need a site plan approval before we can open up. You know I don't have it in front of me but there's, there's plenty of distance on both sides of the building, enough for a vehicle such as a you know a fire, fire truck or an ambulance. MR. CHAIRMAN: What happens after the two year lease? Is there an option in the lease, is there something? KENNETH COUDREY: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, are you going to operate it if he doesn't. KENNETH COUDREY: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: So, in effect it'll die. KENNETH COUDREY: It'll die. I m~an unless the -- MR. CHAIRMAN: Unless he's that ultimately successful that he wants to -- KENNETH COUDREY: Renew the lease. MR. CHAIRMAN: What about the sign situation? What's going to occur there? KENNETH COUDREY: The sign? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, what kind of sign are we going to put up? JAMES LUBKUECHER: I submitted a sketch to the Planning Board. I don't know if you received a copy. Page 25 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. Is it going to be a /t by 6 sign in normal? JAMES LUBKUECHER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. Unlighted or lighted? JAMES LUBKUECHER: It will be lit. KENNETH COUDREY: We will be willing to listen to you know a --- MR. CHAIRMAN: These are just some of the questions. On the Health Department situation we assume that after we met with you that the Health Department arrived at the occupancy level based upon the sewage that was available in the building. Is that correct? JAMES LUBKUECHER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. Has the Building Department indicated that there is any additional occupancy other than that figure? JAMES LUBKUECHER: I haven't heard from anybody in that department. MR. CHAIRMAN: When we met with you at the site we talked about that the second floor of the building was going to be literally shut down over the bar area and that the only utilization of the second floor would be on the basis of where the DJ in a past situation sat and presently will be sitting except for the access of getting up there. Is that correct? JAMES LUBKUECHER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: How long is Mr. Crenshaw lease with him? JAMES LUBKUECHER: His is two years. MR. CHAIRMAN: Two years also. OK, and on the site plan you don't indicate any walking path around the building itself. Your assuming Page 26 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals that the access is going to be from the front door of the building and will the asphalt of the front cement block area or the cement area in the back of the building be roped off or how is it going to be ---. JAMES LUBKUECHER: There's going to be a fence around the a .... . MR. CHAIRMAN: The back. OK, so that's it. You'll have to go through the building to go into the fence area and there will be no access problem? BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: You mean a fence around the back of the building? MR. CHAIRMAN: No. A fence around the back of this concrete area. They'll be fence around it. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Fence around the concrete. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions gentlemen? MEMBER VILLA: Yes. Will there be any objections to having a right turn only on your exits out on to the main road so that we don~t have anybody going cross traffic? KENNETH COUDREY: None whatsoever. If you guys feel that that's the way to go we certainly are willing to do whatever is necessary to make it safe. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK, Jim? MEMBER DINIZIO: Is it understood that the 75 occupancy that is the amount of people that can be on that piece of property , not just in the building but on that piece of property is that what the Health Page 27 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals Department is saying to you or if you have a patio in the back is it 75 people in the building you know? KENNETH COUDREY: It's hard to define what the Health Department is you know saying. MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I interpreted it as being 75 people on that piece of property at any one time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well using the establishment I mean it could be getting in and out of their cars. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well I, I mean you can't tell the difference between 80 and 75, but you certainly can tell the difference between 200 and 75 is what I'm saying. MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand. Well, I don't mean to answer your question and/or the question to them but in my voting on this application they will be doing detail occupancy amounts on a daily basis which they will report back to us on. MEMBER DINIZIO: I, I go along with that but, I --- MR. CHAIRMAN: Just so we know where we are parking wise and everything like that we had discussed this, you're aware of this. MEMBER DINIZIO: If I'm voting on this its for the 70, my assumption I'm voting for 75 people for that piece of property. Not inside that building but you're going to have that outside patio when we count 75 people, 75 people if there's 25 outside there's 50 inside. OK, that's my understanding of what the Health Department was saying. If you can get a clarification on that, that would allow you to Page 28 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L~ Southold Town Board of Appeals increase the amount of people, you know, certainly that's to your benefit. OK, but-- KENNETH COUDREY: 75 was for usage inside the building. I mean, I mean, -- MR. CHAIRMAN: I know we discussed that but the problem is that they have to walk through the building now to get to the back, OK, and you know that there's going to be a constant flow in and out. KENNETH COUDREY: But I'm saying he's trying to do every effort he can, he rented, he's leased another piece of property adjoined to it, has a I don't know how many spaces. 30-u.O spaces and that's hard to cover, reduce the flow, so he's making every effort to get this thing through. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. You can either stand space standing or you can sit down, whatever you'd like to do. We're going to ask the audience if there's anybody in the audience has any questions concerning this application, all right. Is there anybody in the audience that would like to speak either for or against this application? This is appeal No.I~2u,6. You guys are in luck tonight I tell you. KENNETH COUDREY: I have 50 people for. (Jokingly) MR. CHAIRMAN: Hearing no further comment, we thank you very much again for coming to this hearing. We will definitely try and have a decision as quickly as possibly. I know how important it is for you with the summer coming and we will recess the hearing at this point. I'm sorry reserve decision until a later date. Page 29 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals KENNETH COUDREY: Do you know when you would make the decision on this? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well you can hang around tonight, we're going to be' working until the wee hours. (Everybody having conversations at one time) MR, CHAIRMAN: I need a second on that motion gentlemen: MEMBER VILLA: Second. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor. MEMBERS: Aye, 8:13 P.M. MR. CHAIRMAN: AppI. No: 4245 George and Susan Tsavaris. This is a request for a variance under Article XIII, Section 100-239 for permission to locate swimming pool with fence enclosure within 100 feet of the bluff of the Long Island Sound. Location f Property, 2170 The Strand, Lot 111 at Pebble Beach Farms, East Marion, N.Y., Parcel No. 1000-30-2-53. Copy of survey which has been photocopied which indicates the approximate place of the pool which is about 10 feet from the north easterly property llne of ~t6 feet from the top of the bluff and about probably about 10 feet from the porch a pool of approximately 15 x 30 and I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding propertie~ in the area. How are you tonight doctor? Would you like to be heard? Page 30 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L[ $outhold Town Board of Appeals GEORGE TSAVARIS: Yes. I just want to make the clarifications. The distance from the pool to the bluff is measured by one of the Town's Trustees and was measured to be 53 feet. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK, great! I will change that then. GEORGE TSAVARIS: Also, we had submitted two proposals and one is to be, to be built in the northern southerly direction, but we opted to the second proposal which is east-west because of the grade of the property and granted by the Town Trustees and the people who would build the pool, and who objected to the variance, felt that it was better, that there would be less disturbances to the bluff area by putting it that way. MR, CHAIRMAN: By building it horizontal to the existing deck. GEORGE TSAVARIS: Yes, exactly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that still 53 feet also or does that actually -- GEORGE TSAVARIS: That, that was 53, yes. MR, CHAIRMAN: That's the 53, the other one is still a [~6, is that correct? GEORGE TSAVARIS: That's correct. MR, CHAIRMAN: OK, great! Just let me understand that this pool is going to be unenclosed? GEORGE TSAVARIS: Well, we're going to have a perimeter fence, a chain link fence with self-closing gates on both the access from the beach and also from the house on the deck onto the property. The reason why, one of the reasons why, I'll give you two reasons why we don't want an enclosure around the pool itself is that Page 31 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals cosmetically it's a very small piece of property and it would just be a, an eyesore, but secondly is, it would obstruct our view of the bluff from the house and having children we'd like to know exactly where they are at all times. Having a fence going across that pool would obstruct our view of the bluff. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. I)o you have any questions of the doctor or Mrs. Tsavaris, Jim? MEMBER DINIZIO: No. GEORGE TSAVARIS: We have spoken to our neighbors on either side, both the golf course and the Kondacks and they have no objections. MR. CHAIRMAN: What about the lighting effect on the pool? Will there be any extensive lighting? GEORGE TSAVARIS: Just the standard light that comes with the pool. One, one, ----. (Interrupted by Mrs. Tsavaris, it a little pool) It's a very small pool. It's 15 x 30. MEMBER VILLA: No overhead lighting? GEORGE TSAVARIS: Overhead? No, I don't know, there's nothing a, no it's just the light that's up there. MR. CHAIRMAN: And doctor, how much decking around each .... ? GEORGE TSAVARIS: Well, we're not going to put any additional decking because of the deck that's already existing on the property. We may have a three foot path around the pool but that's, that's about it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that going to be in wood or cement? GEORGE TSAVARIS: We're just going to lay brick. Page 32 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh! You're going to lay brick, OK, all right. Anybody else have any questions on this? MEMBER VILLA: Well, could he clarify the fence. He's going, you're going to put a gate between your house and the property line, on both sides. GEORGE TSAVARIS: Yes. MEMBER VILLA: And the, the fence will be down --- GEORGE TSAVARIS: We're having a gate on both sides of the house. On the east side of the house and on the west side of the house. MEMBER VILLA: Right, all the way out to the bluff? GEORGE TSAVARIS: There's going to be a fence on, on, up to the bluff on both sides of the property line and a fence across the bluff. MEMBER VILLA: Across the bluff, OK. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don~t know, you know, we're not here, I don~t know what state law requires. OK, so the Building Department, there may be some modification on that by the Building Department because we're not really here to talk about the fence as long as it doesn't exceed ~ feet 6 inches in height. (Discussions by Members with Mr. Chairman) MEMBER VILLA: Make a motion that it's approved as requested, with a stipulation that there be no overhead lighting. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK, the horizontal one is to the existing deck. MEMBER DINIZIO: Second. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. Page 33 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting ~ June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: It's done. 8:17 P.M. MR. CHAIRMAN: The next appeal is in behalf of DEPOT ENTERPRISES, INC., it's appeal No. 42~[[SE, legal notice reads as follows: Upon application the applicant requests a Special Exception as amended to include the approval for the location and use of a proposed addition to the existing principal building located at 320 Depot Lane, Cutchogue, NY. The proposed addition is an expansion of the existing recreational membership club and is located in the Residential-Office (RO) Zone District. Property No. is 1000-102- 2-12.1. A copy of instruction plans of the building. I have a copy of the existing site plan of the property, produced by Anthony Lewandowski, revised June 6, 199[[ and a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Doctor, how are you tonight? What would you like to state for the record, Sir? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: Well, one of the other problems that I would like reviewed, possibly and insist on the fact that I was Light Business when this was built and now it's Home Office which makes me come before you for a variance. But, the other problem is that I increased the size of the parking lot if you look on that and the question I have is that it, I don't, is, is, is this a corner lot or is it in a Page 34 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals corner lot, because it doesn't cover the corner. There is another piece of property that's on this. Now, if this is Home Office the parking lot that's on there is proposed and if this is not considered front yard, the 15 feet setback to the parking lot is fine. If not, IJll have to have this reviewed or I'd like you to consider it a, a change on this simply because the parking lot is an emplacement. It really hasn't hurt anybody and it's not doing anything. It is over the 15 feet. There's more than 15 feet, the closest it is, is 18 feet on one corner and 2~ feet on the other, but it, a lot of the parking lot that you're going to see basically rests on what you want to call this, if this is Home Office for the parking lot, or a, is this the front yard or the side yard. There's a 15 foot setback on Home Office if this is not the front yard, but I don't, this is not a corner lot. A corner lot is owned by somebody else. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right, it's a, it's a piece of property as to road frontage. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: As to road frontage is but again, the basic part of the building faces the main road and that's the way the building was built so I would like that reviewed by you and a decision made or what I should do with that. OK, that's a concern to me. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, the reason why it's a concern to you is because you may have to come back with an additional variance, is that correct? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: Yes, if, if it can't be, you know, rectified as, as front yard or side yard, it makes a difference on how many feet I Page 35 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals have to be away, but I~m 16 or 22 on that although it's really close either way. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for the record, you had come before this Board sometime in the early to mid-eighties requesting this application at that time the Code read Not-For-Profit, is that correct? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: And in and about 1985 this is to my recollection the Zone was changed to B-Light under the old Zoning Code? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: Yes it was. It was changed to Light Business. MR. CHAIRMAN: Subsequently to that you then entered into a Building Plan to extend the existing, from the existing house which I think was the Tedesco house? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: It belonged to Keith Bialeski. MR. CHAIRMAN: From that, you continued all the way out and built this entire structure that exists right now? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: Yes, under the Light Business. MR. CHAIRMAN: Under the Light Business, OK. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: The Zoning was then changed with the Master Plan. MR. CHAIRMAN: In 1989 to RO. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI:To RO. The Planning Board has suggested that I try to get it changed either back to Business or Home Business. I'm waiting for them to make a decision. I think they would like to see a change because it's so out of place. It was built under a different, it was built under a different zone and everything I do makes me Page 36 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1991~ Southold Town Board of Appeals come back before the Zoning Board of Appeals and the building is going to stay. I mean, it's, it's not going to change, but it's, it's been misplaced. MR. CHAIRMAN: Now the nature of the application before us is what I refer to as a layered Special Exception because your now seeking to add on to the rear of this building a steel structure. When I say steel, in reference to composition steel, OK. Approximately, what is that 52 x 60? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: 30 x 58. MR. CHAIRMAN: 30 x 58. I'm sorry, and you are taking something from the building and you want to place it in this structure? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI; Yes, I have a weight room that's really out of place. The Building Department and everybody else would like the weight room which is in the basement of this building to be moved to the main floor and this is basically I'm not asking to add a use to the building, I'm asking to take the use that's presently in the building and make it more healthy and put in a proper place. MR. CHAIRMAN: The addition of this building to the existing building is going to require what, the fire wall? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: Yes, it will require a fire wall but it's not, it will have to be approved by the Fire Department. Between those steps and the building, the building would have to go first and a metal building will have to be built and then the fire wall would just be laid right next to it so you don't have a problem building. Page 37 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals You'd have a hard kind of building next to the fire wall. It!s just going to be over 15 feet high. It's a metal building. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any kind of entrance in the fire wall into the existing Health Club or will that be through this entrance that's in the rear of the building? JOSEPH /IZEWSKI: The entrance in the rear of the building is cement. OK, and there is no, there is none. The fire wall will go right through. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. So the actual access will be outside to this weight room. JOSEPH /IZEWSKI: No, it will be through a cement wall which is now the first shaft area, but there will be between the steps and the rest of the building a fire wall. Along those steps will be a fire wall that will go to code, which is 3 feet over the peak of the building and you don't need ....... for that wall. Mr. Chairman: I think Dr. Lizewski has sufficiently answered my questions, I'll ask you gentlemen if you have any particular questions, Bob? MEMBER VILLA: Well, I have concern reading this memo that we got or letter we got back from the Planning Board where they spell out a whole list of things and one of the concerns I have sitting on this Board is that on the approval given by the Appeals Board and then in 1985 we had five conditions of it. Now his prior predates my time on the Board but two of the conditions were basically that the Club not be conducted for profit which it is I believe. Page 38 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: It always was. MEMBER VILLA: OK, and others that the use must have 3 acres in which it doesN't have. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: There was no condition on that. ZBA decision by the way that it not be Non-Profit. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, because they were in the proper Zone at the time. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: It was a Light Business when it was built. MEMBER VILLA: Well one of the other conditions was that they must have at least 3 acres which they don't have. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: decision either. MEMBER VILLA: Well where does ( come from? BOARD SECRETARY KOWA/SKI: I Board is getting it. Well that"s not in the Board's ), where do these statements don't know where the Planning MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know where they got that information. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: I don't know where it comes from either. Three acres makes in New York State, 3 acres makes a Health Club exempt from the Health Club Laws. If you have less than 3 acres you're not exempt from certain laws which makes you put up a bond for your health club. If you have 3 acres or more for a health club you don't have to put up a bond. i had to put up a $50,000 Bond to run my Health Club because I had less than 3 acres. OK.' Page 39 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals JOSEPH next to office, Mr. CHAIRMAN: Let me just ask this question. The 1.5 acres that this building sits on has never changed? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's been there, it's the same, Nothing has been taken away, nothing significantly has been added to. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: No. This, this use that I'm asking for is not, not a new use for the building. It's basically taking an area that's in the building which the Building Department and everybody would like to see moved in putting it where it should go. That's basically what I'm doing. I'm not changing the amount of people in the club, I'm just taking an area and saying we're taking it from a basement floor and putting it on the main floor. MR. CHAIRMAN: And this weight room will have a cement floor? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: Have a cement floor and it meets all the criteria of our Building Code. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions gentlemen? MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I refer to that memo again. It says present uses are 3 Dentist, the Health Club, Umbrella Home Care Services and a residence. Is there a residence on that property? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: No. MEMBER DINIZIO: 3 dentists? LIZEWSKI: Yes, there's 2 part-time dentists in the office me. They, they're there one day a week. They share an MEMBER DINIZIO: 2, 2 dentist office, or is a second waiting room? Page 40 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: No, 2 dentists office, 1 dentist office is shared by two dentists. Dr. Cummings and Dr. Trentalange. An Orthodontist from Garden City and a Periodontist from Garden City. Both have people out here and they both practice one day a week during the summer months and part of the fall. MEMBER DINIZIO: And a, I don't quite, did you see this memo? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: No. MEMBER DINIZIO: I, I don't understand the last (), so if you can explain to me. It says: "If we apply prior interpretation by the Zoning Board of Appeals concerning Petrol Stations to this property, it appears that there is insufficient land use for these uses." what does that mean? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: I have no idea. MEMBER DINIZIO: It says "insufficient land use for these uses." JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: When it was built, it was Light Business and I think the problem is that it's now Home Office and I am going to apply for a Zone Change. They understand that I~m applying for a Zone Change. MR. CHAIRMAN: Doctor, what happened when we went from the evolution of the building out? From the building out the existing house that was there, an old house, a 67 year old house with asbestos shingles on it, so on and so forth, the dentist office was the first thing to evolve that, is that correct? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: 2 dental offices, yes. Page 41 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: 2 dental office and then we went from there into the recreation club, so on and so forth. Umbrella Services was the first organization to move in or were you there before them? JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: No, I was there before them. MR. CHAIRMAN: You were there before them. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: I was the first one in. MR. CHAIRMAN: So they then came after because they came before us for signs, if you remember. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: Yes and then Dr. Trentalange and Dr. Cummings came. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions gentlemen? OK, we'll see what evolves. Is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak in favor of this application? Anybody would like to speak against the application? All right I see no further hands I'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. 8:30 P.M. MR. CHAIRMAN: Appl. No. 42~,9. SANFORD and SUE HANAUER. This is a request for a Special Exception to establish and operate a Bed Page u,2 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199tr Southold Town Board of Appeals and Breakfast in accordance with the provisions of the Zoning Code at Article III, Section 100-31B(15), with ower-occupany, and as an accessory to the existing principal residence. Location of Property, q105 Soundview Avenue, Mattituck, N.Y., County Tax Map Parcel No. 1000-9Lt-3-part of 1.7. I have a copy of the original floor plan of the house. We have personally visited the site and we are aware of the 2 bedrooms and I bath which is the nature of this application apart from another request and a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Who would like to be heard? SUE ANN HANAUER: As you know my name is Sue Ann Hanauer and together with my husband Sandy we are applying for a Special Exception to operate a Bed and Breakfast establishment in our home on Soundview Avenue in Mattituck according to the provision of the Established Bed and Breakfast Code. To quote from a recent Article in Newsday, ~'Out Eastern, in season, there are two kinds of weekend visitors. Day Trippers and Guests. Day Trippers are discouraged, Guest are pampered. There are a number of intermit bed and breakfast available and they do understand pampering. Guests can invariably count on being made to feel like old friends". In that spirit we plan to offer a comfortable and interesting atmosphere, one in which we can share at the, our enjoyment of hosting and our love of this area in which we have lived for over 16 years and now make our permanent home with our guests. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Page 43 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1991~ Southold Town Board of Appeals SANFORD HANAUER: I would like to describe the property. The properties up on the Sound at the East End Soundview Avenue. The house sits on a 2.8 acres. On the East side its boarded by a 34 acre farm, on the South by a 17 acre farm, on the West by a single residence on almost 2 acres. Separated by buffered hard dwelling and our neighbors dwelling about a, better than 100 feet apart, it's buffered by about a 50 foot a shrubbed area. In order to get to our home, one has to drive up to 250 foot driveway which is completely secluded. No-one can see our residence at least six months out of the year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Your forgetting to say how nice it is. It is a magnificent piece of property. SANFORD HANAUER: Excuse me, to the North we have 180 degree view of Long Island Sound and that's all I have to say at the moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Is there anybody else would llke to speak in favor of this application? Is there anybody in the audience that has not seen this plan and that would like to spend two minutes in looking at it? OK, we will lay it down here and we'll take approximately a two minute recess. I offer that as a resolution gentlemen. MEMBER DINIZIO: Second. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. MR. CHAIRMAN: We will reconvene gentlemen. I'll make the motion. MEMBER VILLA: Second. Page ~, -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L[ Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. MR. CHAIRMAN: In no-way am I trying to curtail anybody from speaking before this Board. There is a five minute time limit however. We very rarely ever invoke that. I would ask though if there are people who are members of organizations within community groups that they ask those folk persons to speak regarding any disconcerting comments or anything that may concern you, probably not the right phrase to use, but anything that might concern you regarding an application of this nature and therefore I'll ask if anybody has anything they'd like to say against this application? Mr. Arnoff how are you. It's so nice to see you. HARVEY ARNOFF: Good evening Mr. Goehringer, Gentlemen of the Board, it's a pleasure to be back in front of you. Just before I start I would like the record to know the present of another Town Attorney, former Town Attorney in the audience and that's Pat Moore from Riverhead who said she'd like to welcome me and I don't know if you saw her at the time. MR. CHAIRMAN: I, I'll do a very Moore. HARVEY ARNOFF: Thank you. In special welcome when we see Ms. any event I'm here in behalf of Diane Smith who is the contiguous property owner to the West of this particular parcel and residence in the application. Before I she has secured the signatures of some fifty immediate vicinity opposing this particular give any kind of presentation I think it would Page tt5 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 SouthoJd Town Board of Appeals be appropriate right and read that petition and then hand out the originals of that. The petition reads as follows: 'We the undersigned do hereby object to the petition of Sanford & Sue Hanauer for a Special Exception to use their residence u, 105 Soundvlew Avenue, Mattituck, as a bed and breakfast facility. This area is zoned R-80 and we the undersigned feel that the extra traffic and commercial atmosphere that would be created would change the character of our neighborhood and hereby object" This was done on several sheets and I just would like to hand them if I can at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. HARVEY ARNOFF: Having said that I think at the outset this Board as certainly some of you know that I have in 1989 spoke out against the proposed legislation for the bed and breakfast. Not that I was not an advocate for bed and breakfast in this town and I am an advocate for them, but the fact that the then Town Board in its infinite wisdom chose not to really give us any guidelines and there are no guidelines other than you can't have an accessory apartment and some other minor things but in some substance the legislation which youmre now asked to rule upon is somewhat flawed. Let me, let me address that because I think record. There's no definition of occupied could be one day a year. it's important for purposes of the what owner occ, upied is. Owner Owner occupied could be 365 days a year, and how are we to police or to enforce that. There's no definition of what we mean as casual and transient. There's some common belief as to what that means but it would seem to me that we Page 46 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals could essential have a proliferation of 2 and 3 bedroom motels throughout the Town of Southold, and I'll get to that in a few minutes. As I said before there's absolutely no provision for enforcement or for police and abuses. Now, since we've address the fact that this particular statute and that would be 100-31, I think it's B15, it gives us really not many guidelines and we have to turn to Article 6, which is the generic rules and I'd like to go through those and tell you why in my opinion and in the opinion of Ms. Smith and I think it's shared by some 50 other residence in the area that this is not appropriate use. First of all Diane Smith and all of these people are not people who moved into a neighborhood and said we don't like what's already there. There saying we love what's already there, leave it alone and I think that's very important. There has to be in our community and as you all know I'm a resident of this community and I'm a vocal support of this community. A reasonable expectation of someone who moves here or who lives here and buys an expensive water front home in a private community, that's somewhat secluded, to have that preserved, that was part of what they paid for when they bought this and the intrusion of Bed and Breakfast and I understand, we all know if you take a look at Combs' house on Peconic Lane, if you take a look at the Barlett's house, and I could go through a million others, OK, there wonderful places and there beautiful, but there beautiful because there on main corridors, there, there on streets that connect, there not at the dead end of a private road. Now. let's deal with the specific Page 47 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals application. Is it compatible with existing land use patterns and community character? It's not. You have again, single family dwellings. Large expensive single family dwellings. Now, one of the other things that you have to consider is, is it going to impact on value? It's an interesting question and I pose that question to probably ten Real Estate Brokers. Their opinion was, "Harvey that's a pretty interesting question because we've never been asked that before, nor do we know where there's any comparables because we've never really been faced with that". But, they all said one thing, that as a Real Estate Broker they would be duty bound to tell somebody looking to buy a house of this nature, to guess what, there's a Bed and Breakfast next door. They also said that that would reduce the number of people who would want to buy next to a quasi commercial establishment and therefore would impact on marketability. It follows and I, it follows by a mere application of logic, but if it effects marketability, it effects price. Therefore, we do have a dilatory effect on the property values, especially of Diane Smith whose next door. Now, Diane Smith is a unique situation. When she acquired this property and the Deed by which she acquired it from the Lessners, and I have a copy of it to hand of, provided for an easement. This is a landmark parcel. Diane Smith's property is a landmark parcel. I believe at that time the Hanauers I think were the Lessners, but now I think the Hanaures own the road, so they have the right to use this road and I would like to hand up some photographs and I've sought of you know, sifted through a myriad of Page L[8 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals them, but I have several which will, actually I know you've all been there, but will show you how this is a private area, is a private road, it's not a main thorough fair, this is a dead end of a dead end street with a driveway and I think that's another factor which I'll address, so I'd like to hand up at this time the Deed and these photographs. Now, what are the general community wishes? While you have 50 signatures to indicate what the general community wishes are we're dealing with a community contiguous to this parcel, not the community as it addresses as we talk about the entire Town of Southold. I think if you ask Diane Smith or if you ask anybody here are Bed and Breakfast nice in having near flashing neon signs? room who would say nay to them, a community, are they nicer than I don't think there's anyone in this Now, is this driveway accessible to fire and police? That's another consideration. It's a 15 foot driveway and does that meet the standards? Now, I understand that the right-of-way and you'll see from that deed it's 50 foot right-of-way. But then what are we going to do, make it wider and pave it and make it something that nobody here bargained for. Now, additionally this is a private community. By private, I don't mean that there's a gate or anything else, but this, this is land that's sound front property, it's unique. If there was ever unique property this is it and we're impacting on that and we're hurting. MR. CHAIRMAN: When you refer to it, you're referring to the applicant. HARVEY ARNOFF: Absolutely, I'm referring to the application. Page 49 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: Not necessarily to Ms. Smith's property? HARVEY ARNOFF: No. Now, the district that this is going to be placed in, I understand that the Town Code says "AC and all the R Districts" I believe and I don't think, I think that's it, "you can put a Bed and Breakfast". Is this and this is an R 80 District, suitable? This particular district and this is a consideration that you can make on your Special Exception Standard, is it suitable for this intended use and it's not. I think it's not for many reasons. You have limited traffic patterns. Now, how many beds, how many rooms are we going to have? Are we going to have, we have an application here for as many as the Code will permit. That's what the application reads. Now it's interesting that in 1985 in a letter to Mr. Orlowski, then Chairman of, I believe still, well then Chairman of the Planning Board, Mr. Hanauer seemed to stress the fact that he wanted this kept private and we've had to post a private property sign to the East End of Soundview Avenue to deter people from entering the right-of-way of our driveway cause people, motor bike riders use this 10 foot road we constantly have to chase them off our property and then it opposed the widening, he opposed the widening of the road at that point. It was a subdivision application to 15 feet. Again in 1987 and by the way these are part of Town Records and I have copies of them but if the Board does and wishes my copies, I, maybe Mrs. Kowalski can copy them during the break or something or I'll get them to you today. MRS. KOWALSKI: I'll copy them or I'll give them back to you. Page 50 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals HARVEY them back. MRS. KOWALSKI: OK. HARVEY ARNOFF: Again provide a road of 15 foot. ARNOFF: I can give them to you, you copy them and mail in 1987 Mr. Hanauer again said, '1'11 We are the only residence at the end of privacy", these are the Hanauers in 1987. "And feel that we~ve provided sufficient access and clearance for all emergency vehicles". Now, I'll hand out those letters. I excerpted those letters but certainly if, they're addressed to minor subdivision and not this application. Now, I don~t have much more and I know you said five minutes, ISm trying and I think Mr. Goehringer knows that I can say good morning in five minutes so we'll just deal with that and I think his comments were addressed to me. Clearly, Diane Smith who enters and exits her property and only has to worry about the Hanauers and their casual guests who come to visit them, will have far more to worry about on her entrance and exit to her property and there will be more traffic clearly in front of her property. That's unavoidable and if the proposed legislation which I understand is being kick around now in the Legislation, Legislative Committee is our circular driveway in front of our house and back out to the public road. We are reluctant to do anything that will further encourage this invasion of our privacy." "This invasion of our the road who had to post a private property sign," and you'll see that very clearly depicted on those photographs. "Now, we are constantly bothered by people disregarding the sign speeding around Page 51 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals passed, this could be expanded to five or six rooms I believe and since he has asked for all that they could get Diane Smith could be next to a six room Bed and Breakfast and there would be nothing this Board could do to prevent that and despite the protestations perhaps in the Hanauers, "Oh! no!, we only want two or three", but when they sell their property what then? MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I just comment on that. HARVEY ARNOFF: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: In the application before us is for three. Two now with the possible addition to a third. HARVEY ARNOFF: One of the copies of the application that I originally saw said 'as many as we can get". MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, but I mean that's what's before us now. We have a floor plan. HARVEY ARNOFF: According to the Code they want as many as they can and that"s three under our present Code. SANFORD HANAUER: Present Code. HARVEY ARNOFF: Right, that's present Code. What you have here is virtually the entirety Bills will be, if you prove this you have virtually the entirety Bills will be impacted by opposing it. You have 50 signatures, saying "No" and you"re going to say, if you say yes, then what does anyone whose going to purchase property in the Town of Southold, what message are we sending out? Are we sending out that you want to buy in this community, are we going to disregard what"s in that community, or what's in that area or the Page 52 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals character of that area and change it despite the fact that you're relying on that, on, on the beauty of our shore line, the beauty of these homes and I~m not implying that the beauty of the Hanauer~s home will be effected in any way, I~m sure it will be enhanced. That's not the issue here: The issue is, is the negative impact on all the people in the area. It's interesting because I believe that if this application is approved then there are certain tax benefits that can run to everyone in this town who owns a single family dwelling and I believe that everyone in this town who owns a single family dwelling in any district from AC to R 80 is entitled to a Bed and Breakfast and gentlemen, that's not what we want in the Town of Southold. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: I just have two quick questions. HARVEY ARNOFF: Yes sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: When you're referring to landlock you're referring to the Hanauer's property being landlocked or Diane Smith? HARVEY ARNOFF: No, I~m not. I~m talking that Diane Smiths is landlocked, it has no access other than the right-of way over the, it has 50, 50 foot deed, you'll see it in the deed. It's a 50 foot deed in right-of-way and there's an issue as to whether or not she would have to consent to this application in any event as to increase traffic over her right-of-way, but that might be something for the Supreme Court and not for this. MR. CHAIRMAN: You're referring to as a deed restriction in the original deed? Page 53 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals HARVFY ARNOFF: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I make a comment, Jerry? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. I want to make one more statement and a, you of course know that I've known you for a long time and I do understand what you're saying and so on and so forth, but I only ask you to think about this one thing and that's what concerns me about this application and I may be down playing this in reference to dollars but if we were not talking about an $800,000 house, you know, that's being impacted, actually two $800,000 houses, maybe $1,000,000 houses, maybe $1,500,000 houses. HARVEY ARNOFF: Possibly, depending on, with luck any increase in market, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. Would there be that amount of concern? Would we all be here based upon that situation? HARVEY ARNOFF: I think if you, if you reduced this to $100,000 neighborhood, I don't know that it's any different. If the people in that neighborhood feel that it will impact upon them, yeah, I think that, but you'd have to, see I don't know that, the answer is there is no generic answer because quite candidly it depends upon the specifics of each application. There are areas here which and I would venture to say that a Bed and Breakfast in a $750,000 million dollar home area might go very well. It might be quite acceptable and you might not get the community opposition, but that's my position that this Board has discretion, a great deal of discretion under that Page 54 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals Special Exception Permit and this is, this is an instance when it should exercise that discretion denying. I don't know .... (Start of a new tape- discussions amongst themselves) MEMBER DINIZIO: I merely want to point out something, a fact to you, that the proposal before the Code Committee is a lot more extensive then what you had indicated. Certainly, one proposal is that Mr. Hanauer would have this as a right just by going down to the Building Department getting the $50 permit. HARVEY ARNOFF: I know that and I would hope that the community at large comes out at this public hearing. MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean, six rooms is one thing, three rooms by right, by permit, is certainly another. MR. CHAIRMAN: Two, two, I hope two. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, there's, right, it's going back and forth but I just want you to be aware ......... HARVEY ARNOFF: Oh! I am aware of that, thank you. SUE HANAUER: I guess it's difficult to follow such a professional presentation. However, I would like to set just a couple of things straight. Yes, we did make those applications to protect our privacy. The privacy issue came from many local people and since we had posted our new sign where it says "Keep Out Private Driveway" we have been bothered very little. That problem has been greatly solved. Also, we had many more people coming down our driveway looking for Diane Smith than they have going down their driveway looking for us and that we were speaking with them on Sunday and Page 55 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals this was something that came out in our discussion at that time. The nature of the kind of an establishment that we wish to run and there is precedence for this in other Bed and Breakfast across the country is by appointment only. There will be no sign, there will be by reservation only, no driving directions will be provided until we have a paid reservation in advance and we know that those people are to be expected in our home on a given day. We have no wish to have a myriad of people riding around our driveway either, and we are trying to establish a very secluded very special kind of atone to the Bed and Breakfast if in fact we are allowed to do that. That will allow our guests as I said before to feel pampered andvery special. The traffic isn't part of that. For two rooms it's no more than the guests that I've been having all the years that I've lived in that house who have just come to stay with me. It's the same thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes Mr. Arnoff and then Doctor. SANFORD HANAUER: The letters that I have written to Mr. Orlowski which Mr. Arnoff referred to he only pointed out certain things. Number 1, the driveway when it was first put in was 10 foot wide, we were required by the Town to put in a 15 foot wide driveway for emergency vehicles such as fire engines and so forth and we were reluctant to do it, but we did it according to code. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Dr. Lizewskl. JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: I'd like to speak to both the Zoning Board and the audience. The local law relation to Bed and Breakfast has been through the Code Committee and it's, it's going to be up for a public Page 56 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals hearing and one of the things that it says is that Bed and Breakfast. there's a minor Bed and Breakfast coming through which is done by right and when you're in this position you don't usually see a lot of people at these hearings but I think a lot of people should start to realize that there's a lot of things going on in this town and they should come to these hearings because they're going to have impact on the entire town. What this does is very simple. A minor, the renting of less than three rooms in an owner occupied dwelling providing the service of breakfast to casual transient roomers provided the rental of six rooms for such purposes ( ) incidentals ( ) the principle use of the dwelling. Then there's a few minor things, like smoke alarm on each floor, two exits in the dwelling, you know, identification sign no longer than 2 feet and a few minor things, but this is going to become of right in this town which means that basically you can go to Nassau Point, anywhere in this town and have a dwelling such as these people are asking for by right. This is going to go into your code and I think that, that people in this town ought to read their legal notices and I think they ought to be alerted to what is going on and if there is an objection by them I think they should speak about it because once this law is passed the ZBA won't have to hear this anymore. This is going to a matter of right. There's not going to be anybody coming in here to make this kind of application. You can go to the Building Department and get this by right so there's a lot of changes being made. Some maybe to Page 57 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L[ Southold Town Board of Appeals the good and some maybe to the bad, but I think the people in this community ought to start participating. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you doctor. Mr. Hanauer. SANFORD HANAUER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I just clear one thing up before you get into that point. Is this application before us for two or three units? I know you explained that, SANFORD HANAUER: Two with a future three. MR. CHAIRMEN: Two with a future three. OK, go ahead. SANFORD HANAUER: Our application is based on the existing Code right now. We were not aware of, of the --- MR. CHAIRMAN: Well that's not past you anyway, and there's, there's you know a 60 day waiting period and then you have to file with the Secretary of State and so on and so forth and so I thank you. Is there anybody else as a spokesperson in this group that would like to speak against this application? Yes sir. RONALD McGRFEVY: My name is Ronald McGreevy. I live on Lloyds Lane which is basically an extension of Soundview Avenue and I did own a house quite close to the Hanauer's house. These people have bought this property and have wanted to maintain it very privately. Everything had to be private. The signs, trespassing and everything. But now it seems they can turn around and effect everybody else's privacy along this road. It!s a very prestige area, it's always been a residential area. To come along now, put a Bed and Breakfast I think it's going to ruin the whole neighborhood. It's Page 58 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals definitely going to effect property value. The people probably will have to put in to have their taxes reduced because the property value is lowered. Also, along Soundview Avenue for whatever reason, it's very difficult to sell any property in front of water. This is going to make it even harder. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Is there anybody else? OK. Any other questions the Board may have? MARION KUEGLE: 40 years ago we built a little house on Soundview Avenue and since that time I've always enjoyed the quite and relaxation, the air, the area and to me something like this is just going to take all that away. We have problems enough now with traffic on that street. It's constant and this will only add to it and one more thing I feel that this will set up a precedence. Now we have another piece of property on that street that goes along to Cedar and all these years I've kept my fingers crossed that nobody would come along and put a motel there. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any questions from Board Members? None. Hearing no further questions we thank everybody for their courtesy. Could you just use the mike Ma'am because you're kind of far back there. State you name for the record, thank you. DIANE SMITH: I am Diane Smith and I would just if, if it's not too much to ask, to show hands of the people that are here against this petition the Hanauers are going through. Page 59 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L[ Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: Anybody like to raise their hands? Thank you. OK, again thanking everybody for their courtesy and for the spokespersons that did speak and for the Hanauers. Yes. SANFORD HANAUER:I want to clear one item. When the Smith's enter The right-of-way to the property they immediately turn to the left to go down their driveway which is exactly about 20 feet so their not really going over to the rest of the driveway. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. Thank you. Again, hearing no further comment I'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. MEMBER DINIZIO: Second. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. 9:08 P.M. MR. CHAIRMAN: Appl. No. 42u,0 = JOHN CROKOS. This is a request for a variance under Article XXIX, Section 100-239.LtA based upon the May l~, 1994 Notice of Disapproval from the Building Inspector for permission to locate swimming pool with fence enclosure within 100 feet of the bluff along the Long Island Sound. This property was the subject of prior Appeals under Appl. No. 4201~ as rendered 12/8/93 and Appl. No. ~lU,0 as rendered 2/23/93. The subject premises is improved with a single family dwelling and contains an area of approximately 40,000 sq. ft. Location of Property: 2110 Grand View Drive, Orient, N.Y., Lot No. 7 on the Map of Grand View Estates; Page 60 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals County Tax Map Parcel No. 1000-1~t-2-3.11. I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. I have a copy of the original home site plan which is or was produced by Keller-SandgrenAssociates, most recent date is April 28, 199[[. This too is an extremely spectacular house in the Orient area. The nature of this application is a setback from the bluff at approximately 66 feet for a proposed swimming pool. Mr. Sandgren, how are you tonight, sir? JOHN SANDGREN: Good evening, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Board. For the record I am John Sandgren representing Keller- SandgrenArchitects and before you this evening to appeal to the Board for what we now modified several times is a swimming pool location for John Crokos and his family. We modified means that we had been somewhat closer to the bluff in prior applications that being approximately 5u~ feet from the bluff and through recommen- dations of your Board, we have reduced the width of the pool as well as moved it closer to the home - thereby making the closest points of a jogged pool, not a straight edged pool, but a jogged pool of 66 feet; the greater majority of the pool falling behind the 70 foot approved variance line that we've had in past hearings. Just for the Board's edification, the home has been pulled rather than pull it to the 70 foot line which we were allowed to do we pulled it as tight to the road that the code would allow to leave as much room to the bluff as possible. That has been done, and we are appealing to the Board that, that we are now as close we believe to the home as we can be Page 61 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals with the southerly edge of the pool before we get into some severe drainage problems from rain runoff and so forth. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that from the house your referring to? JOHN SANDGREN: That's correct. All of roof runoff has been channeled to drywells and so forth, but we're just worried about ground runoff collecting between the pool and the home. That's basically what I had to say. With me this evening of course is Mr. Crokos and Mr. Richard Runge, who is the Landscape Architect involved with our office, if anyone has any specific questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Again, the decking area is at ground level? JOHN SANDGREN: Yes, that's correct, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: So that's exclusive of the setback? JOHN SANDGREN: That's right. I would point out at this time that Mr. Crokos plans only, you may be looking at a terrace line of about 5 feet closer to the bluff, but he plans to really just put a walkway along the bluff side of the pool. More like three feet or so, just to be able to clean the pool and so forth; and we feel that this is as small a pool as we could recommend to the Crokoses based on the scale of the home, more like a glorified really our appeal. MR. CHAIRMAN: this nice gentlemen? That smaller than this it would like to feel hot tub, I guess you might say, and that's I'll ask if there's any questions of the Board of Page 62 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER WILTON: Is there a reason why on the western side of the pool the jog that goes nearest to the Sound couldn't be jogged towards the house, giving you more distance to the Sound? JOHN SANDGREN: Right, that's was actually analyzed by the office. Right now that dimension of the pool is 21 feet with the jog in place. If we were to, I believe, if what I understand is straighten that out and just make it back more to the line the pool becomes about 15, not even 16 feet, at that point; and we felt that the proportion of 16 x 36 way, this area of the that this should be an area for children and they shouldn't feel to do so, so that really is the it just didn't feel quite right. This by the pool is the shallow end and we're concerned the family to congregate with their as though they don't have any room reason why the pool is that shape. Once again, the points of the pool are what extend past the 70 feet. 80% or more of the pool is behind the 70 foot line, and once again, the pool is entirely behind the coastal hazard line of more than 40 feet. MEMBER WILTON: In your design have you considered a free-form pool ? JOHN SANDGREN: We have looked into that. The only problem is the arcs just tend- in just drawing over this plan an arc has a tendency if it wants to feel gentle and more space than the jogs do, looking at the pool design. the proper, natural curve to take up and that was our experience in just Also, the angular nature of the home Page 63 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals seems to keep it being in keeping with an angular pool, so that was the reason for that. MR, CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sandgren what is the actual size of that jog? In other words what would be the widest point of the pool? BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: North bound. JOHN SANDCREN: I don't quite understand you. MR, CHAIRMAN: Well, assuming that the jog was placed back in, in other words ---. JOHN SANDGREN: If that were straightened out as a longer line? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that 3 feet or is it 2 feet? JOHN SANDGREN: No, The jog is about 4-1/2 feet. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4-1/2 feet. JOHN SANDGREN: Yeah, if it was straightened out we would be talking I guess about 16-1/2 feet. MR. CHAIRMAN: So then we could say that the widest portion of the pool, I didn't mean to cut you off, is about 25-1/2 feet then. Assuming if we ran that line from where you had the 70, 66 foot arrow right across to the house, perpendicular to the house we would say that it's about 25-1/2 feet? JOHN SANDGREN: The actual width of the pool? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. JOHN SANDGREN: At its widest point? MR. CHAIRMAN: About 25 feet? JOHN SANDGREN: 24, I would say. Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 24, all right. Page 64 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals JOHN SANDGREN: That's correct. We also have with us by the way this evening Mr. Runge and his organization are doing a wonderful job in landscaping the property, and we feel confident that anything we're doing here is not more if anything but enhancing the area. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you realize that if the Board was to grant this variance, I would not be permitted to walk on this property again and have coffee on a Sunday morning and watch the sun rise. (Jokingly). MEMBER VILLA: Well, my concerns are several, and one is that this is the third application. It's almost, it's the same as you know School Board Budgets. When you vote them down how many times can they come back? When the first application came in, we knew that this was going to be in the future, and we put requirements in there or made it part of our condition that there be a 75 foot buffer zone in the back which we hoped that the applicant would then build the proper size home in a right spot that he could accommodate everything else he wants. We had a second application from the 75 foot ruling and the Board, in its wisdom reduced it down to 70 feet. Now, we're back to 66 feet. Where we going to go? How many times can you come back? JOHN SANDGREN: Well, in all good conscience and working with the Crokoses on this project, we felt that we had to offer them what we felt was the most appropriate pool for their home, and again I don't think we're talking about an Olympic size pool here. This is a very modest pool I would think for this purpose and I would say at this Page 65 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Sou[hold Town Board of Appeals point that because we have the held the home and again, it's not very wide - it's a cross section dimension, front to back of the property. We are a[ [he 50 foot setback llne at. the street. I mean as far as [he garage corner is concerned, we are [here. We had talked to this Board about ro[a[ing the house originally which we did slightly [o afford more room in [he back; and we feel that we are not impacting the area any worse. Again, the 75 foot line asyou point out, Mr. Villa, is, that is true - however, very little of this pool proceeds beyond that point and again far behind [he hazard line which I think is the most primitive. MEMBER VILLA: Yeah, but that was, the 70 foot was the second, the second variance that was granted, and now we're back [o 66. I just wonder how many times [he Board can sit here and entertain something that's all. JOHN SANDGREN: May I read a letter. I'm just curious if this has any impact whatsoever. This is addressed to my office from the Board of Trustees in which they did state, "...Dear Mr. Sandgren: The above reference proposal for a pool was reviewed and have found to be out of the Trustees' jurisdiction as a pool is beyond the 75 feet from the water and is also behind the coastal erosion hazard line .... " I don't want to open that up but there is an organization in the Town of Sou[hold that did deal that again, it wasn't to their dislike to the point where they would want to get involved, and I would also like to point out that we are not a precedent setter here. There are two other homes within two parcels Page 66 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals of this home that fall between 60 and 50 feet of the bluff line. So, I don't believe that we were acting frivolously in coming back to the Board. We feel that this is the proper thing for this home, and we feel that we produced a nice home for the area. MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the CZM line is what about, a 25 to 30 feet, I guess? JOHN SANDGREN: If we will look at this I've had a scale left before me, we had 66 feet and about one inch at that line is to the bluff and coastal erosion in the 40 foot range, I would say from the coastal erosion. MR. CHAIRMAN: Creat, did you want the landscape architect to say something? JOHN SANDCREN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN: You're welcome, thank you. How do you do Sir. Could you just state your name for the record? RICHARD RUNCE: My name is Richard Runge. In setting up this pool design with Keller-SandgrenAssociates, we tried to keep the pool as close to the house as possible. If you look at the drawing and put a straight line along the house you'll find that the pool is actually in line with the back of the house, especially the kitchen area, and where the pool, where the house starts to jog back to the road, it's approximately 10 feet from the house that's where the pool starts. There's very little, if any, other kind consideration to put any kind of pool there in that backyard as is set up right now and with the restrictions that, that have descended. The overall size of Page 67 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals the pool as indicated on the plans is approximately 38 feet by maybe about 21, maybe a little more ifyou take the jog back to the house at the other point and the design of the pool is, is worked so that itql taper along the coastal llne to ge back away from, from the bluff as opposed to being in line with the house. The reason it is as far or as close to the house as it is indicated on the plan right now where it says that 10 foot is because, as John Sandgren had pointed out had mentioned, in consideration for natural rain water and drainage at that particular point there are set of windows, Iow windows in the basement area which let in light for recreation down at that, that level and, of course, the water will fall into there regardless if there is a pool or not a pool. Considerations had to be taken into account which required a drywell which making it practically physically impossible to move the pool on top of that drywell. So you can't physically move it back there. As far as other considerations, as far as septic systems and whatever else is involved, those also take up a good portion of the backyard and they have to be considered with whatever kind of design that's worked out for a swimming pool or recreation area. That has all been figured in. The layout of the pool from all practical purposes of any kind, of any kind of pool at all would be considered would have to fall basically within that area. I think John had pointed out, John 5andgren had pointed out quite clearly that all the effort that has been made to try to keep it as far away from the water-line and the coastal erosion hazard line and so forth as practically possible. Page 68 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals The way the situation is, the coverage, the foliage and everything else that's on there at that particular point, I can't foresee from my experience and horticulture that there would be any kind of consideration of damage that would be taken, that would have, that would be brought about by putting the pool in that particular location. I don't know if there's any other questions that may come up as to, as to that. I know consideration for a pool would be is to have a shower of some size so that the family can get some use out of it, the children to play in. As you go down to the deeper end which is not going to be that deep because there's no diving board consideration in there at all. It narrows down to about 14 feet which gets kind of pointy at that particular section and brings it back as close to the house as possible without interfering with any of the septic systems or drywells that are there in that particular area. The only reasons for the jogs that go back in there which are small, which is literally a small percentage of the overset on that particular line that's indicated on the plan by 66 feet, is just a very small percentage and if you would just kind of straighten that line out from all practical purposes does not really change the mass or the overage it's just more or less for some kind design consideration because of the restriction that the pool had to be that close to the house. I mean if you made it straight it would look, I mean it would look really impractical. It would look lousy and it would not be that functional for the family use. If anyone have any Page 69 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199[~ Southold Town Board of Appeals questions in terms of that or any other suggestions for how a pool can be applied there that would be practical? MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd like to ask a question. My assumption is that you knew where this pool was going to go before you built the house. RICHARD RUNGE: I didn't design the house or build the house but, I was consulted in terms of once, of once it was in place and try to work within the restraints of that. 5peaking to John and his office, the house and the house layout was meant to be as close to the front as possible to, to provide as much property at the rear to take care of any of the family or any kind of family's considerations for life style or entertainment that they would want to take. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, could you just tell me then what your opinion is of the reason for tilting the house that way. As I recall that piece of property is extremely flat for a piece of property on the Sound, and I can see the contours before me and I'm just wondering - I'm trying to search for a reason for some type of hardship as to the reason why I should vote for a variance to a variance that we granted already in light of the fact that maybe one, maybe six inches of this house is on that 50 foot mark and I would say better than 50% could be moved up 20 feet? MR. RUNGE: Absolutely. I can answer that. MR. SANDGREN: I'll respond to that since it is our office who was responsible for the rotation. The initial surveys and thoughts of our office and our design was that in larger picture, if you were to analyze the views there to the south along here is a cove which is a, Page 70 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals I guess the bite and then out to the lighthouse'and the suggestion was a slight kick of the house would allow us to see a little more of the Sound, the open water, and still give us a panoramic view into the bite. And the house as I had pointed out before initially was rotated more to the north than it is now. In other words there was more of a space from the 50 foot line than we had, and it was rotated back towards the road slightly more than it already was, and we felt we were within the tolerance of the view angle if you will of the site line of the Sound because there are other structures on the adjoining properties, and you would also find that was the decision and why it was made. MEMBER DINIZIO: And this was done with the full knowledge that there was a 70 foot, well actually 75 foot. MR. CHAIRMAN: It was a 100. RICHARD RUNGE: Excuse me. In terms of addressing your question from a practical and it comes very good looking aesthetic aspects of it and they're very valid, but as you had pointed out the property is relatively flat in nature, but it's relatively flat once you get up the embankment that's in front of the property. In order to position the house from a landscape point of view and to take advantage of the flatness that you pointed out, it would necessitate the house to be moved back to a point where it is. I mean, in rotating it as it's laid out here and as you can see from the landscaping aspect, it has some kind of area for parking for guests and necessitate just that kind of rotation regardless as opposed to taking the whole house and Page 71 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals just moving the whole house back an extra 20 feet or so regardless of the angle. I mean, that happens to be one particular consideration for that. The practicality as far as the grades are concerned in the back, they work out just fine. The house location would be moved back at that particular point like you said would not change anything, It just would make the pool closer to the water and that wouldn't help the situation, but to have any kind of parking consideration, any type of driveway approach to the front of the house or anything along that nature you can see in the plan where they have, where they provided a space for people to park so that they could enter the house that itself would necessitate a certain amount of distance back from there and the kick was the perfect way to handle it as opposed to just physically moving the whole house back. MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Is there any other questions that anybody would RICHARD RUNGE: care to ask? MR. CHAIRMAN: I will ask Mr. Sandgren. (New tape, starting point) You are not enclbsing this as a structure? JOHN SANDCREN: That's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? Bob? Anybody? MEMBER WILTON: Do you have plans for lighting of the pool? JOHN SANDGREN: The only lights available which we will have is in the deep end of the pool and their facing from the house toward Page 72 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals outwards so there'll only be a glow there. It's only, not any external lighting. We've also verbally discussed this not only with the Village's requirement to notify the adjoining property owners but personally as well, and neither one has of course any, in any case. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Is there anybody else that would like to speak in favor of this application? Anybody like to speak against the application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. MEMBER DINIZIO: Second. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for coming in. JOHN SANDCREN: Will there be a decision possibly later for you to be ( ) MR. CHAIRMAN: Here's what's going to have to happen. We are going to have to have a second meeting to make decisions. We have this group of people here and have been waiting patiently for one application and I have no idea how long that this is going to occur. JOHN SANDCREN: Would a few days be enough time for me to call the office? BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Yes, call next week. Page 73 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals Tape 4-51u~ 9:32 P.M. MR. CHAIRMAN: Appl. No. 4241- RICHARD LAN. This is a request for a variance under Article IliA, Section 100-30A.4 (ref. Article III, Section 100-33)based upon the May 4, 1994 Notice of Disapproval from the E~uilding Inspector in a building permit application to construct pool and deck in the front yard area, as an accessory use. Location of Property: 230 Bridge Lane, Cutchogue, N.Y., County Tax Map Parcel No. 1000-111-15-1.4 and 1.5 (Tax Map Parcel No. 1.4 totals 2.478 acres and Parcel No. 1.5 totals 1.088 acres). The subject premises is located in an R~I~0 Low-Density Residential Zone District, copy of a survey produced by Robert Van Tuyl, P.C. Along with that I have a photocopy out of that indicating the nature of the pool area and a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. The approximate placement of the pool envelope is approximately 18 feet from Bayberry Road line. That is from the property line not the road. Mr. Fitzgerald JAMES FITZGERALD: If you're looking at the map thatshows the distance as 18 feet there is a submission which more clearly ( ) the lines. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right I'm aware of that. Yes, I know I had looked at that and --- MEMBER VILLA: The one marked in pink? Page 74 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L[ Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, and I had some how skipped over and I thank you for mentioning it. So now we're talking approximately 50 feet? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes, it's 50 feet to the edge of the pavement as I indicated in the letter. MR. CHAIRMAN: What is it to the property line? JAMES FITZGERALD: The road is an irregular curve and at that point the grade of the road is 6 to 8 feet below the grade and vary with the pool. MR. CHAIRMAN: What's the approximate distance of the property line? Did you measure that? JAMES FITZGERALD: No, I didn't. MR. CHAIRMAN: How close is it to the Long Island Sound? Several miles, right? JAMES FITZGERALD: I think, but on the map it would have to be scaled from the map and it looks like it would be 40 feet or so. MR. CHAIRMAN: This is unenclosed, there's no intentions of putting any structure around this? The deck areas are additions to and the pool is 20 x 52? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes. IHI ask my Board Members if they have any specific MR. CHAIRMAN: questions? MEMBER VILLA: Yes, how much of a variance are you looking for? This is a setback so the front yard would be what ti0 feet 50 feet? BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: What's the size of the property again? Page 75 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, there actually .... JAMES FITZGERALD: There 2.45 acres. parcels but it's my understanding although they may not technically potentially been merged. There are two separate thatthere owned in one name have been merged. They have BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: What's the size? JAMES FITZGERALD: The problem is that there, the almost the entire property although it's 3-1/2 acres it's front yard. It has roads on most of the sides. MEMBER VILLA: I don't have any problem with that. I just was trying to keep the proper setback. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: I think it's 60 feet. 60 feet is required if you're over two acres. MEMBER VILLA: Is there any reason why the pool can't be turned 90 degrees and run the other way? JAMES FITZERALD: Yes. MEMBER VILLA: I looked at it. I was there today and looked and it was, the area is opened basically and it would, it could fit. JAMES FITZGERALD: It is, but I think the locations of the stakes which I hope are still there. You said you, are they still there? MEMBER VILLA: Yes. JAMES FITZGERALD: It would, would, I. We, the location of the envelope that we showed are the original submission. (Discussions between the Board Members) Page 76 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER VILLA: I wouldn't have any problem keeping it, you know, grading in the front yard if you could keep the setback as it. the same as it would if, if it would be a house. I looked at it today and it looked to me like you could do that. JAMES FITZCERALD: Well, I, I think that the, the problem of course is results from the configuration of the property both with regard to the streets so that there's. If there's a tenth of an acre of property which is not front yard property, it's a lot. It only exists to the new work. In a matter of variances to the Board of Appeals it's a large piece of property and the selection of that particular location and that particular orientation is the most desirable from the stand point of the owner and I think the fact that the, that open area behind the house, is the flat part of it is so much higher than the grade of the road should be taken into account because I think the fact that the Code prohibits accessory structures in the front yard is intended to make properties look nice and I don't think that this one will not look nice because of the existence of the pool. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, are we with the intention that it is approximately u,0 feet from the property line? Is that what we're --- JAMES FITZCERALD: I, it, it's shown on the survey as quote "an irregular curve". I'm not sure, I don't know how we could nail that down any, any closer to that. Now what's on the most recent drawing is made from an enlargement of the survey and, and it is to scale. MEMBER DINIZIO: What is the tie line? BOARD MEMBERS: It's a straight line. From point to another point. Page 77 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Is that pool staked out, Mr. Fritzgerald ? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, but it's very difficult because when you're up on top you can't measure anything because you're up a six foot bank to the road. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Yes. measure it somehow. We would have before the Board can even grant it. instead of L[O? You know what I mean. You could have a surveyor to know what the setback is What if you end up 35 feet JAMES FITZGERALD: Well, I, I don't know. I don~t know if that's (). BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: It could be. JAMES FITZGERALD: We can measure the distance from the corner of the pool to the pavement and I did that. MR. CHAIRMAN: What is that? JAMES FITZGERALD: 50 feet. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh! From the corner of the pool to the pavement? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yeah. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh! From the pavement of the road? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yeah, the ( ) pool. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about the pavement of the driveway. MEMBER VILLA: He doesn't know where the road is in the right-of-way, that's the thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not a right-of-way. It's a public road. Page 78 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1991~ Southold Town Board of Appeals (Members discussing between themselves) MR. CHAIRMAN: Actually it should be, it should be actually estimated from the tie line which is where we actually have a point to work from and that's where the difficulty is. MEMBER VILLA: Yeah, but even that doesn't give you the distance from the property llne because you don't know far the tie line is in from the property line. JAMES FITZGERALD: Well, the, the most significant fixed structure on the property is the house and all of the dimensions that are on that drawing were based upon measurements taken from the house from two points on the house to each of the stakes. MR. CHAIRMAN: What were those distances, Jim, do you know? JAMES FITZGERALD: I have them, I have all of them which I can provide to you and I, I don't think you would enjoy having me read them off. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Can you show on the map where the two points are that where you measured? JAMES FITZGERALD: I'm sorry. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Can you show on the map where those two points are that you measured from? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes. This is, I can make that legible and this is simply to show that I didn't just stick them in and say "Oh yeah, that's about 10 feet from there." MR. CHAIRMAN: OK, just explain this to me here. This is the farthest point here? This is the stake that's the farthest point? Page 79 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals JAMES FITZGERALD: That's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: This is actually the farthest point here. JAMES FITZGERALD: Yeah, OK, yes, and this is the one that we had talked about. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's the closest one, right there? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. So in effect all we really have to do is measure from here to here with a ruler. JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes and I did that. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's where you came up with the 50 feet? JAMES FITZGERALD: 50 feet, yes. MEMBER VILLA: How wide is the road? JAMES FITZGERALD: It's, it's not even .... MR. CHAIRMAN: 20 feet to the road. JAMES FITZGERALD: Yeah, it's not even a regular narrow road MEMBER VILLA: What's the width of the right-of-way of the road? This way if you knew what the road pave was and the right-of-way was you could take half of ..... JAMES FITZGERALD: Well the right-of-way, the right-of-way is 50 feet. MR. CHAIRMAN: What's interesting here is that the road line, that probably actually the tie line is probably the property line. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: No, this is the property line. The pavement, the road line is the property line. Page 80 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER VILLA: I setback that he's structure. MR. CHAIRMAN: So then most of the road must be within the neighbor's property. JAMES FITZGERALD: No, that, that is not the pavement llne. MEMBER VILLA: That's your property line. JAMES FITZGERALD: That is the right-of-way. It's the 50 foot road that exists on paper only and the real road is --- MEMBER DOYEN: So you mean the road is over here, right. JAMES FITZGERALD: Yeah, it is, it is essentially MEMBER VILLA: The road always has a right-of-way and if it's 50 feet they generally have like 30 feet of pavement and 10 feet between the edge of the road on the property line. (Members discussing between themselves) MR. CHAIRMAN: So what do you want to do on this thing? don't have a problem with it if he maintains a suppose to have maintained from a principle MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, are you happy with him being 50 feet from the road ? MEMBER VILLA: 50 feet from the property line. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: We have to make sure the surveyor stakes it for you, you know, so that you don't put it in and then find out that your closer. JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes, I mean if that's a significant factor absolutely. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, is that what you want him to do? Page 81 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER VILLA: If they can maintain it 50 feet from the property line to the nearest edge of the pool and it's in the front yard, I~d vote for it, but if it's going to be less than 50 feet I donlt see why it has to be because I was there and it would appear that they've got lots of area to move that pool around it. MEMBER DINIZIO: Plus the pool could be smaller. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, the question is, can you go 102 feet and miss the driveway from the edge of the property line? MEMBER VILLA: From looking at it, coming up that little wooden steps by the roads there, you got all kinds of space. Judging by, where the stakes were you certainly can move it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Why don't you, since we're not going to make a decision tonight anyway, why don't you have the surveyor look at the situation and give us the approximate distance from that closest corner to the edge of the property line so that we know exactly where we are and this way when we have a meeting we can make the decision and this will clear up all of that problem that we have over this. JAMES FITZGERALD: OK. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there anybody in the audience would like to speak against this application? Is there anybody else that would like speak for the application? I see no hands from anybody then we will let Mr. Fitzgerald sit down. Hearing no further comment I'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until we receive the proper estimates from the surveyor. All in favor? Page 82 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 9:48 P.M.-T 389q-#4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Appl. No. 4243-MOORE'S LANE HOLDING CORP. This is a request for a variance under Article V Section 100-53B, Section 100-31C (ref. Section 100-33), and Section 100-231, based upon the May 4, 199t[ Notice of Disapproval from the Building Inspector for permission to locate accessory uses (tennis court, swimming pool and pool clubhouse) in an area other than the required rear yard, and with tennis-court fencing at a height of more than four feet when located in a front yard area. Location of Property: 475 Cedarfields Drive, Greenport, NY. County Tax Map Parcel No. 1000-40-5-1.42. The subject premises is located in the Hamlet-Density Zone District. I have a copy of the site plan indicating the nature of this particular project produced by John Metzger and it is most recently dated at March 31, 199u, and a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. How are you tonight Sir? could you please state your name for the record. GEORGE WEISSER: How are you tonight Sir and Board Members? My name is George Welsser, I'm the developer and owner of the said property Moore's Lane Holding Corp., formerly known as the Cedarfields Property. Page 83 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199tt Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: If you would just tell us how you have gotten into this situation and basically just quickly paraphrase what you told me on the telephone when you originally found out you had to get a variance for it. GEORGE WEISSER: This is an approved site plan which is ready to be filed in the Suffolk County. When I went to apply for the Building Permits to start erecting the model complexes, the Building Inspector found in the Code and in the Code your interpretation isn't clear because even though this was quasi-commercial project it's a residential type of application and the Building Inspector found that the code was not clear to its interpretation, thus, by placing the common buildings such as the pool, the tennis-court and the clubhouse in a common area which faces the front of the proposed residences it would be a violation of the code and it would require variance. That's pretty much in the nut shell so he gave it a, he rejected it so we had to take it off the map in order to have the Planning Board sign the map for final approval and now I'm back before the Board trying to get a variance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The tennis-court height is what? GEORGE WEISSER: The tennis-court fence height? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. GEORGE WEISSER: I believe it's going to be 9 feet. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. The swimming pool is 4., 4 feet, the normal 4 feet? CEORCE WEISSER Yes. Page 8ti -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: The clubhouse is approximately how large in size? GEORGE WEISSER: Approximately 1,000 square feet. MR. CHAIRMAN: And the patio area is a cemented area rather than a deck area? GEORGE WEISSER: It's proposed to be cemented around the pool and part of the area that leads to the tennis-court and patio. MR. CHAIRMAN: OK. The approximate size of the pool? GEORGE WEISSER: 25 x 50. MR CHAIRMAN: Is that a liner pool or a cement pool? GEORGE WEISSER: It's a gunning. MR. CHAIRMAN: Gunning, OK. Any idea in reference to distances to existing ways that are in there? GEORGE WEISSER: A, the map is pretty much to scale. You see the pool is about 80 feet offset from the parking ( ) . MR. CHAIRMAN: Height of the clubhouse is one story, not to exceed what? GEORGE WEISSER: One story, not to exceed -- BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Not to exceed 18 feet? Not to exceed how many feet? GEORGE WEISSER: It won't exceed 18 feet. I haven't finalized the design or the Club House. It will contain, it's going to be an open road. It will contain two lavatories and a common sink area. The power will be Iow power. It will be a base of 100 amps service. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bob? Page 85 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER VILLA: I don't have any problems. I mean this is the normal layout of this kind of facility. The center court is generally where you put the common facilities and the bluff is all around it to protect the existing neighborhoods, so it's all self contained. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is this hooked into the Greenport Sewer System. GEORGE WEISSER: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: No. OK. So the only thing you have is town water. You have Greenport Water. GEORGE WEISSER: Yeah, Greenport Water and it's standard septic systems. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anybody have questions? Anybody want to move it? MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll move it. MEMBER VILLA: I'll second it. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Any conditions? No conditions? MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we will call you if we run into any problems during the decision in reference to X,Y,Z amount, you know, parking stall number six or parking stall number 8, or whatever. Page 86 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals 9:56 P.M.-t-3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Appl. No. 4098 -TONY AND MARIA KOSTOULAS which is a continued hearing. This is a request for a variance under Article XXIII, Section 100-239.4 for approval of a deck extension located 100 feet of the bluff of the Long Island Sound and Appl. No. Lt2Lt8 is a request for a variance under Article ILIA, Section 100-30A.3 for approval of a deck addition with insufficient side yard setbacks. The nature of this application is to distinguish or actually to continue one hearing is to request a variance for the clipping of the deck on another. Same piece of property however and side yard setback. Revised site plan William R. Simmons, dated June 12, 1992 and a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. PATRICIA MOORE: For the record my name is Patricia Moore and I~m from the office of Moore & Moore in Mattituck. We became involved with Mr. & Mrs. Kostoulas during the Trustees Coastal Zone Erosion Hazard Area permit application and at which time Mr. & Mrs. Kostoulas were starting an application before you for setback from the bluff, 100 foot from the bluff. At the same time the Trustees had ( ) jurisdiction so that they went before the Trustees. While at the Trustees there was an extensive hearing there. The Trustees came back with a permit with conditions which were not acceptable to the, to Mr. & Mrs. Kostoulas and we felt that the basis of their decision was with some errors of fact. The first exhibit you have there is a memorandum that we submitted to the Town Board which is the appeal body for the Coastal Zone Hazard Area Permit at which time we Page 87 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ $outhold Town Board of Appeals presented the facts to the Town Board. Why it has taken so long is that when the Town Board in their appeal capacity heard the case they held off on their decision ultimately not really rendering a decision but suggesting to the Trustees to see if something couldn't be worked out and a compromise can be reached and that's why we're here today and I submitted to the Board at this point a survey that shows a cutback of 8 feet from the bluff cutting back the deck, the existing deck, which is the proposal that was made by the Trustees and has been accepted by Mr. & Mrs. Kostoulas. So, that's where we are today. So, we are here on two separate issues and if, with permission I'd like to incorporate both appeals at the same time and ask that the Board incorporate the record that's been established prior to this date so that we don't have to repeat or that I don't have to repeat myself. Thank you. The deck was originally placed there at the, not the entire deck but a portion of the deck was placed there at the, really the recommendation may be if it comes down to the owner or the cooperation with the owner and the Building Department because of some footings that were there from the previous building ( ) preexisting house that was renovated and the structure that remained the foundations ( ) that remained had some footings there and there was stairs and some decking, The decking was extended without. Mr. ~, Mrs. Kostoulas were not aware that there was a separate permit for the deck that they would need and variances ultimately. So, the structure is presently there. The application to the Trustees really dealt with Page 88 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~t Southold Town Board of Appeals various issues and we were very careful in mitigating any possibility of erosion and you have similar concerns for the 100 foot setback from the bluff. The way they addressed the mitigating fees concerns were first they hired Timothy Coffey, he's a landscape contractor, very capable individual and who recommended permanent erosion control fabric, initially to be placed there. Plantings of Rosa Rugosa which is a very effective erosion control plant. There about 200 planted along the bluff area and if you've seen this since you, this has been a long application. In the recent days if you've been out there to reinspect you'll find that it's very lush and it's very stabled. The plantings have really taken root and there doing beautifully. There has been approximately $3,000 worth of plantings throughout this ~area so there has been extensive planting to deal with any possibility of erosion. There were in fact drywells. The issues I'm raising were points that the Trustees were mistaken on so that's why I'm raising them today because the memorandum addresses that, that, for example the Trustees were not aware that there were drywells on the property and in fact there were drywells so that any run-off could be controlled. So, at this point the property is stabled, the 100 foot setback from the bluff is controlled. On the deck which is on grade will have far more impact on the bluff than any pedestrian traffic. They have two young children that they pointed out to you previously. Actually three children. There is the decking of the brick work pretty much joined together as a walkway so this is all on grade and because of the typography the property Page 89 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals and really the house, the preexisting house is very close to the bluff. The whole area was built out many years ago when no-one really considered the distances from the bluff and this house as well as many of the other houses in the community are setback very closely to the bluff. The brick work creates this walkway path and the decking and the brick work really provide a protection for the bluff and prevents some of the erosion that the children and their Fisher Price toys can, the damage that they can do on that on a yard. The property as you can see from the survey is quite unique. It is 60, only 60 feet wide and tapers to u,3 feet on Long Island Sound. So, it is quite narrow and the house is proportionately with the, with the property. Also, in, in the packet I have enclosed a letter from Mrs. Iglasias who is the property owner to the east who is the most, who will be effected by the setback request. She is very positive, is very much in favor of the variance application and they enjoy it. It's close quarters, all the homes there are quite close and they have a very good relationship and is very much in favor of this appeal. MR. CHAIRMAN: So, what you're proposing is to cut back the deck in those two areas. PATRICIA MOORE: Just in the two areas, yes. The landscape architect provided the last page which was not stapled and I apologize for that, shows that the rose bushes, the same type of Rosa Rugosa that was planted along the bluff will be used for that area. So, that's been the recommended plantings by the landscape Page 90 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L~ Southold Town Board of APpeals architect and landscape contractors. Mr. & Mrs. Kostoulas are here and if you have any questions for them they will try to answer them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bob?, Jim? MEMBER DINIZIO: No, nothing. MR. CHAIRMAN: My only concern of course always on water front property is how to fight fire. Having been a fireman 26 years, that's close to impossible on this piece because there's no way of getting access. I guess the only true access that you may have and why this point is probably on the west side. The only request that we're going to have on this is that once the decks are cut back that we take a look at it and approve it. I mean we're going to approve it subject to that. PATRICIA MOORE. An inspection ( ). That's fine, the Trustees also made the similar request in their initial approval. So, that's fine. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI.' I just want to ask. What are the setbacks Pat, for both sides jog total? PATRIClA MOORE: I can't tell from the survey. We'll have to get that to you. If you need it tomorrow we'll have to get it to you. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Yes, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there anybody would like to speak in favor of these two applications? Anybody like to speak against them? See no hands I'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. MEMBER VILLA: I second it. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? Page 91 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBERS Aye 10:06 P.M. T-5 858 MR. CHAIRMAN: Appl. No. ~2~7 HUGH T. and CAROL L. CONROY. This is a request for a Special Exception to establish an Accessory Apartment in conjunction with the owner's occupancy within existing residence as authorized under Article II I, Section 100-30A.2B and Section 100-31B (14) of the Zoning Code. Location of Property: Westerly side of Gin Lane, Southold, NY. also referred to as Lot #2 on the Subdivision Map of Bay Haven filed in the Suffolk County Clerk's Office as Map 2910; further identified on the County Tax Maps as 1000-88-3-6 and I have a copy of a survey from Rodrick C. Van Tuyl, P.C., indicating this house and its approximate placement of this piece of property dated November 21~, 1980 and I have a copy of the floor plans indicating the nature of this Accessory Apartment on the second floor area. I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. I will tell the audience that I apologize for this but before we get into the actual rebuttal we will be taking approximately a three minute recess at which time if anybody has not seen the file we'll furnish it for them along with a copy of the application that Mr. Conroy had to fill out and make ( ) which includes the standards for an Accessory Apartment. Page 92 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals HUGH CONROY: As you stated correctly this ~s not an appeal but a crossway of Special Exception and I would like the Board to clear up for everyone present in this room exactly what a Special Exception means as oppose to a variance for a zoning change. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't want to get to extensively into it but I will say this that the Special Permit Applications that are before us which are generic not necessarily concerning this particular one application are special permits which are granted by this Board. They go anywhere from a residential zone and comprise Accessory Apartments and Bed and Breakfast, one of which some of you have sat through which was approximate third or fourth application for the evening and a comprise special permits that we deal with on other properties other than residential propertles. The nature of this particular application is an Accessory Apartment. It evolved in 1984 and then became part of the normal permit process sometime in, I assume from my recollection about 1986 after the, along with our presentation to the Town Board and .included any properties that had COs or C of Os or referred to as Certificate of Occupancy before January 1, 198[[. So, the establishment and program was built to take care of the larger homes in Southold Town that had been constructed prior to January 1, 198[[. They were done for two reasons, because we knew that there was existing housing stock out there and there was needed to afford apartment for those people who needed this housing stock and could not afford to rent homes. Secondly, it was done as I assume on and I think I'm correct in Page 93 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199[[ Southold Town Board of Appeals assuming this, to assist the property owners who had large houses and were having problems with paying taxes that they were paying on these houses. So again, it's a twofold situation. Number 1, taking or making use of the existing housing stock, creating an apartment for somebody who probably could not afford a house and number 2, at the same time gave the person a tax benefit in reference to the rent collection of rent and that's basically is how it came to be. We have significant applications before us for this for this particular use, Special Permit and some of them are very heart wrenching and some of them are straight forward and we have extensive discussion with Mr. Conroy on last Saturday, we toured the entire house, we toured his lovely piece of property which he has and that's basically it. I hope that answers the question. HUGH CONROY: As you stated and you received that the people here can look over my application. I'm basically going to leave the application on its merits by explaining only that it has a 300 foot frontage on Gin Lane which is three times a normal lot in the development with the normal setback. Also, I will explain as in the schedule on A that from any given point to the north it's 68 ft. from the next property line, it's 50 ft. to the west of the next property line, it's 58 ft. towards Gin Lane to the town line and it's 166 ft. to Arthur Wells~ line and what llm trying to say by saying all of this is that one of the not criteria but one of the considerations that the Board is charged with are criteria besides the one from fifteen all of which I think I have met, but they also are that the Page 94 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199Lt Southold Town Board of Appeals use will not prevent the orderly and reasonable use of adjacent property or properties adjacent. I think, with the space and the amount of property that I have, well, it's obvious that I'm again going to be disturbed by that. Also, that the use will not prevent the orderly and reasonable use permitted or legally established uses in the district. I don't see it. If, if, I'm on a piece of property which is three times larger than the adjacent piece and the safety, health and welfare of the town will not be disturbed or adversely effected and lastly in coincidence with that last point, while the safety and welfare of the town is a point here. The person who signed the lease which is in the folder and you can even look at works in this town, her daughter goes to Southold Schools as do my three children and I think that the intent and the purpose of the law is met, especially considering that when I purchased this property in 1988 as the Deed will show in the thing, in the folder, this law was in existence. I'm not trying to create something that wasn't there and I'm not asking for anything else than what other applicants which I will furnish of this challenge to it have gotten with less frontage and less square footage. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for the record, you are going to utilize the second floor of this house? HUGH CONROY: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: You are going to if approved, place a deck area on the portion of the house that faces the vacant lot which faces Main Bayview? Page 95 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals HUGH CONROY: Yes Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: And you do have a circular driveway in front of the house and probably the person that is going to be utilizing this in that general Accessory Apartment will be parking vicinity on that circular driveway? HUGH CONROY: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: I thank from any Board Members floor. At this time I will somewhere you Sir and see if there's any questions before I ask you to throw it out to the ask for a short 3 minute recess. I will furnish everybody with the instructions for the Special Exception, the second floor floor plan that Mr. & Mrs. Conroy have furnished us and the entire file. I'll lay them right down here and we will be back in approximate 3 to [t minutes. (Members took a recess). MR. CHAIRMAN: The only thing I did not mention when Mr. Convoy asked me which I usually don't do but there are approximately 15 instructions which he did mention and they are all mentioned in here in this application and the applicant if he needs or she needs that criteria can be granted a special permit from this Board and that's what this gentleman and his wife are before us for tonight. I would also ask you if there are spoke persons and I realize that you all probably are from one specific community and that's the entire subdivision but if there are spoke persons, president, vice president or other, I would like to start out with them and is there anybody Page 96 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals that would like to speak? How do you do Sir. Would you state your name for the record please. NORMAN R. WYNNE: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Board, my name is Norman R. Wynne and I am the President, of the Bay Haven Property Owners Association which includes Gin Lane, Bay Haven Lane and the connected cross streets, Mid Way and Watersedge Way, approximately about 50 residents involved. The major percentage of the attendance here tonight are members of our association. I believe there are some other people from a neighboring association Terry Waters and possibly some people from Main Bayview. The three major points presented to the Board tonight in objection to the request of Carol and Hugh Conroy. Supervisor Tom Wickham was quoted recently in the Sunday Newsday in fact the May 29th issue and he stated that the Northfork Southold in particular was an area that people visited, entered, fell in love with the locality, purchased or built second homes and eventually retired there. These are people with values like ours he stated. They have no interest in changing the character of the town into something they wanted to get away from. Gentlemen, I'm a stereo type to Mr. Wickham's remarks. My family flew over and I personally have been coming to Southold and enjoying the atmosphere, the beaches, the ( ) of Southold, for 65 years. In the summer of 1982 my wife and I vacationed in the Bay Haven area. We found the residents extremely sociable and made many friends. What really impressed us was the character and setting of this close knit one family neighborhood. We listened as residents explained how Page 97 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals William Wells developed a community setting down guidelines, in establishing covenants, and for the type of housing erected, roofing and fencing requirements, restrictions even for the types of animals permitted. We were so impressed with the area that the following summer 1983, we purchased our present house as a second home for at that time residents from New Jersey. In 1992 we retired here permanently. Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter the records for the Boards perusal a copy of the original Declaration of William Wells 1959. It outlines the restrictions for residency in the Bay Haven community. This document is filed in the records of Riverhead in Liber u,585, Pages 3L[6, 3~7 and 348. Paragraph 1 of the Declaration clearly states: "No building or structure shall be erected, altered or placed or permitted to remain on any residential building plot, other than one single family dwelling." Unfortunately, Mr. Wells was ailing in later years when he failed to renew his Declaration and it expired in May 1, 1978. If it had been renewed we wouldn't be here this evening. The document lapsed, but all of the subsequent years the theme, the intent, the contents pervaded the actions of the people as they built or purchased homes in the community. They conformed to his guidelines and hence, there adds and remains a single family community a major factor in maintaining the property values of our homes. Together with the Wells' document I also present photographs taken yesterday, June 7th of dwellings within our community which hopefully will highlight to the Board that the original theme of single family dwelling is carried forth down to the Page 98 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals present. Additionally, we have a petition signed by 69 Bay Haven and Bayview property owners representing 37 homes, all objecting to the passage of the Conroy request. And at this time and most of the audience and members of the association I think I"d like to have a show of hands as to how many members of this association object to this petition. Late this afternoon I even received an additional sheet with 15 signatures from the residents of the adjacent community. The Terry Waters community. Along with those petitions, the pictures, I have letters from Mr. Robert Erath, adjacent property owner and he was the person to whom Conroys purchased their home, and also Mrs. Ruth Wells, widower of the original developer and herself a neighboring property owner. Mr. Chairman, I do not know your procedures, should I read these letters, or the Secretary of the Board read them, make them public, or ....... . MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we'll certainly keep them in the record, we will photocopy them and then we'll be aware of them. We will not be makjng a decision tonight on this anyway. NORMAN WYNNE: In fact, Mr. Erath has come from Connecticut and he has a letter and he's also here in attendance. Would you like surely. I~d be very happy to take a look at these documents now? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, them. NORMAN WYNNE: Secondly, we have an active caring Bay Haven Property Owners Association with our own limited but private beach and parking area. This was deeded to us, the Association, by Mr. Page 99 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals Wells. We care for our neighbors, we watch all the houses and properties, we maintain telephone and address files, although summer only residence. Notification of storm damage and other emergency. This all comes about to the feeling of comradeship, members of a community and a caring for your neighbors. I'm sure if the other associations were here tonight they'd agree that home owners in a well define community will band together like a family. We see nothing in the Conroy petition which will enhance our association. We see no numbers of people who will inhabit the apartment, avail themselves of our limited beach facilities. Mr. Chairman, I ask a question, what constitutes a family? What is the number? Is there a number? MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no number in New York State that is enforceable Sir, to my knowledge. NORMAN WYNNE: Suppose there's a change in the lessee. How many persons are allowed to live in this residence? Are the sewage facilities adequate? MR. CHAIRMAN: To my knowledge he's renting to two people and Mr. Villa do you want to talk about the sewage facility? BOB VILLA: What's there is just been put in as the same as any other house in Bay View. It meets Health Department Codes for a single family home. NORMAN WYNNE: Back again to the original question. What constitutes a family and what about if there's a change in the lessee? Can it be a family come in with 8 or 10 children,' or 8 or 10 Page 100 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals members of a family? What impact is that going to have? I ask you, will these people have the same attitudes and concerns for their neighbors as we all have for each other? Lastly, Stewardship Committee. It expired on June 22, 199~, last week. Their recommendations are be edited and simulated for their final report and I believe they recommended high density housing in Hamlet and Village areas not in prime residential areas. The interim of their report I cite statements from their September 30, 1993 draft outline of recommendations and I read from page ~ under the title Preserve The Character Of Hamlets and Countryside. The small town quality of our individual neighborhoods in the sense of community they foster is something to be cherished. Critical to their identity is the difference between Village and Countryside which should not be lost to random suburbanization and stripped development. Going further, page 11, under Affordable Housing, in order to maintain a diversity in the population of Southold and to assure a sustainable economic development affordable housing is needed and should be created throughout the town. Often the cost of this housing is beyond the reach of most families and actually competes with the sale of existing housing by private individuals. Flexible and innovated ways should be developed to create affordable housing without renting zone changes and density allowances which contribute to the destruction of the roll environment. On that same topic, their recommendation 24E, Adopt Zoning, to allow the creation of multiple unit residence and mixed use developments in business and commercial zones. (Joking Page 101 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals between the Chairman and Mr. Wynne.) In fact, I~d like to take aside right now. I want to applause and acknowledge the assistance of your office staff. Linda Kowalski and Lucy Farrell. They have cheerfully and in a very professional manner answered all our questions and provided any information we requested over these last two weeks. From a list provided by your office we ascertained that there are currently 12 Accessory Apartments in the Town of Southold. Five of these in the Village of Southold. We have observed the settings and localities of these properties in order to compare the environmental impact on our neighborhood for this proposed apartment. Number 1, house of Elsie Young, granted in November 1988, ~80 Bristol Lane, a house located in a remote Cul-de-sac of I~ dwellings, has no major impact on traffic and property values of those other residence. (B). house of Martin Bussanich, granted in February 1993, 833 McGoverns Place, again a quite, remote street with approximately 3 other houses, minimal impact. House at sea, house of Robert Diet, granted in March 87, 355 Terry Lane. This house is in the vicinity of Founders Landing. It's water front and is located u,0 to 50 yards from the road. So completely obscured by trees and shrubbery, it is extremely difficult to be seen. (D). House of Stamatios Rapanakis, granted in December 1986, 2030 Boisseau Avenue. It's located near the entrance to High Point Meadows, to what appears to be a business across the road. Bolsseau Avenue is ( ). There are businesses, there's an entrance to Colonial Gardens, there's a factory for sale or rent at the railroad tracks, there's a saw mill Page 102 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals or a wood chipping operation nearby. It's definitely not a prime residential community. (E). House of Daniel Jerome, granted in July 1986. 45125 Main Road, neighboring on antique shops, vineyards, landscape contractors, etc., a commercial zone. These five locations in the Town of Southold, in the Village of Southold, have minimal impact on surrounding property values and more importantly they are not located in close knit one family neighborhood. Centlemen, what we're discussing here tonight is precedence sake. If granted this exception has major impact on the Town of Southold as well as on our neighborhood of well kept single family homes. It impacts the property values, the life style, the future of the owners of upwards of 50 homes. If you rule yes on the Conroy exception you'll be making a statement to the people of Southold, ignore your neighbors, forget zoning recommendations and regulations, anyone with a large home built before 1984, come, file for an exception. You'll be saying, we the Town of Southold could care less that your neighborhood is prime residential and the value of your property will decline because what you'll be saying is, we don't care, we'll be moving towards some artificial government quota obtaining to affordable housing and rental space available. Gentlemen, I thank you for your time and attention and I implore you not to pass this exception. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. That's probably one of the best presentations from an individual representing a group that I've ever heard in 14 years that I've been here. Page 103 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals HUGH CONROY: I take exception, great exception to constant referral to prime residential area. He confronts that somehow or other I do ( ). Number 2, Norm, 1952, we bought our first lot out here. You're not the first one. I've had a family out here since then. I'm paying taxes since then. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Conroy, you have to kind of lighten. HUGH CONROY: I'm sorry. Now as far as the covenants that Norm explained, Mr. Wynne explained, I'm sorry, I have a copy of them also he gave me just as I gave him copies of all the laws, rules and regulations so I gave to the association anyway. Even before the notice of connecting neighbors. It seems odd to me that in the covenant people want to, well the association I guess, by the way I'm a member of the association, ---- (The association making remarks) MR. CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute. Please, no, that's kind of productive, but can I just ask a question. You pay dues to an organization? HUGH CONROY: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Are those dues voluntary? Are they voluntary or are they involuntary? Do you have to pay them? HUGH CONROY: I don't know. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Well the question is, they have to pay for the taxes on the beach front and any other access I assume, so that probably what the money goes for. HUGH CONROY: I don~t know. Page 10It -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199l[ Southold Town Board of Appeals (Discussions between Chairman, Conroy and Wynne) NORMAN WYNNE: Mr. Conroy moved out here I believe he said in 1988. Is that right? Last summer was the first time that he joined the association. As of the August meeting of last year, his dues were due for this year. So, as he currently stands right now he is not a member of the association. MR. CHAIRMAN: How much are the dues Mr. Wynne? NORMAN WYNNE: It was $50, it'll be $75. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. What do you use that money for? NORMAN WYNNE: Bulkhead upkeep, taxes, MR. CHAIRMAN: On the beach front piece? NORMAN WYNNE: Yes. Insurance, parking lot, improvements. We have our own float, we have horse shoe pits, all right, so that's all due. Insurance, taxes, upkeep. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just let me ask a question here because you know I'm not too smart. If this situation were involuntary and he was anybody generically, he did not and anybody didn't have to pay they still have the right to use the water. NORMAN WYNNE: That's right. Yes. Not the float, the parking lot, horse shoe pits. MR. CHAIRMAN: Where is the parking lot? In front of the --- NORMAN WYNNE: On the beach. MR. CHAIRMAN: On the beach. So in other words you would have to walk down. NORMAN WYNNE: You have to access. Page 105 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: Somebody would have to walk from their house down to the beach. NORMAN WYNNE: That's right. All the houses were all deeded with you know, water rights. MR. CHAIRMAN: So that's inalienable, you can't take that away. NORMAN WYNNE: That's right, but the parking lot belongs to the Association and the use of the float, and anything else is restricted for members only. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. So, inordinately if the association did not collect dues and did not pay taxes on the water front parcel which is probably the only parcel. I'm talking about the beach front parcel. I happen to work for the Suffolk County Department of Law, and we seize property for non payment of taxes. The County would then probably own that piece of property. NORMAN WYNNE: Absolutely, surely. don't know who would get it first. members of the association. Town County, you know, say, I It would not belong to us as MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, so that's basically that situation. There would be no barring of anybody from that particular piece of property if they walked to it, transversed it, use the water, walk back and so on. NORMAN WYNNE; Absolutely, but you have to be very careful. There's a float there, insurance is a big (). MEMBER VILLA: Jerry, I have a question. Was there anything in the deed that said everybody had to pay their dues? Page 106 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals NORMAN WYNNE: No, not that I know of. MEMBER VILLA: All right because I belonged to a similar situation in my previous house and it was right in the deed and if you didn't you didn't have to pay if you didn't want to, but there was an automatic lien on the property and when you went to sell it, it had to be resolved. NORMAN WYNNE: No, no such (). HUGH CONROY: About the covenants and about Mr. William Well's intentions as of 1978 which expired. I didn't know it was due to death, I'm sorry about that, I didn't know that, I wasn't here. But there are other covenants in here that are blatantly disregarded every day. MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I just say something. I'm not here to upset anybody in this group. HUGH CONROY: I don't want to get don't want to get into it either, but my remarks to a minimum and want into that either. I'm sorry. I if it's and that's why I kept the application to stay on its merits, but if you're going to thrash me I got to talk back. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not going to thrash you. HUGH CONROY: No, you know what I mean, you know what I'm saying. But this covenants is being disregarded. I've got pictures of them right here and I also got people who wrote letters to the Board complaining about the fact that I'm going to cheapen the property or their property values. Money keeps going on around and around in this ( ). Page 107 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: Just, just let me say this, please. HUGH CONROY: Excuse me, but this is ........ MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, I would really appreciate ..... , but I just want to say this and this is not a popular statement to make to an association, but this Board, this Town, even if the covenants were in effect are not bound by them and it's not a popular statement to make, but it would be unkind of me to have you leave here thinking, because we have had specific set back requirements placed in covenants and restrictions and remainder lots have come before us where those covenants and restrictions have had to have been varied so as to allow a single family or a multi-family. When I say a single I'm talking about one with an Accessory Apartment to be constructed on a parcel of property. Just so everybody is aware of that, but I do appreciate your mentioning it and I assure you that very rarely do we bridge those covenants, but in this particular case. The only other thing that I want to say is please be aware that even though on the surface this looks like a multi-family use because there are in effect two families living in the house it dies when this gentlemen sells the property. It does not survive the sale. It is not a permanent fixture. The kitchenette which he would be placing in this property can be extricated just as easily as it was placed in. I'm not selling the thing for him. I'm telling you that that's the situation. I can understand your concern. Again, for the people that sat before us tonight with the Bed and Breakfast application, and an $800,000 house, there was a concern of loss of property value there Page 108 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals and we understand that and I'm addressing you in general, but the concern here is, has this gentleman met the requirements of this specific proposal which is the Special Permit before us. NORMAN WYNNE: But doesn't the Board look at a neighborhood? A where they'll survey something like this? See what the the neighbors? I mean there's an impact on over 50 neighborhood impact is on houses here. MR. CHAIRMAN: When we had the public hearing, there was not a particular concern of putting Accessory Apartments in subdivision areas. I will tell you this, that I came before a different Town Board, when the Bed and Breakfast application, and I hate to keep on comparing it, but they are somewhat unique in their own right. I specifically asked the Town Board at that time and this has nothing to do with the present Town Board or the present Supervisor. This rule has been carried over as I said since 1987 or 88. This is Bed and Breakfast. Not to place it in subdivision areas and it is in subdivision, it's in all the areas. I understand your concern Mr. Wynne and the only thing that can be done is really to petition the current Co-Committee and ask them if it be taken out of subdivision areas. NORMAN WYNNE: Who are the members of the Co-Committee? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, any Member of the Planning Board, any Member of the Zoning Board that is chaired by the Deputy Supervisor. Now, rather than get me in trouble because I'm already in trouble on the record, I would sincerely appreciate your Page 109 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L[ Southold Town Board of Appeals explaining to her and she~s a very easy lady to speak to, that's Mrs. Oliver, that your ultimate concern is having these particular Special Permits in subdivision areas and that's the whole concern. Now, what do you say. What is a subdivision area and what is not a subdivision area? A non subdivision area is a described piece of property. That's where certain pieces of property were sold off prior to zoning. That's the difference between a subdivision area and a described piece of property. That's what you're lobbying for and I think that's what you're going to have to talk to them about. We don~t make the rules. We unfortunately have to live by them and I don*t mean unfortunately. In your case it's unfortunately. In our case we have not seen any abuse of this problem. It has helped twelve people in this town. It has helped both the person that has owned the property and the persons that have rented the property. NORMAN WYNNE: I can see It would definitely help the person who owns the property it's going to effect the surrounding neighborhood. that. but Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: I just hope that everybody understands that we are .... . No, no, I know that you don~t understand why the law stands the way it does, but I hope that you, I hope that in some way you can understand what we're saying. Yes. ELIZABETH BERNICH: Do any of you up there have income property? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I want to be honest with you ma~am, I had told Mr. Conroy on Saturday, because I'm in a similar situation. I have two children in college and when the children leave I~m going to Page 110 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals be forced to do exactly the same situation that he's doing. So my name will appear up here and I'm sure that my wife will not agree with that but you know that's what going to have to happen because I can't pay the taxes. TOM FOX: Excuse me Sir, with all due respect, do you tell Mr. Conroy and people in similar circumstances you always have the option to sell your house? MR. CHAIRMAN: No question about it. TOM FOX: Move to an area where you can. MR. CHAIRMAN: I apologize because what counter productive and I apologize. MEMBER DINIZIO: I would just like to comment subdivision. I live where there's this potential I'm saying is becoming that I live in a has existed for probably the better part of what seven or eight years in the town. It has existed and will continue to exist unless someone changes that particular law. I see an application for an Accessory Apartment with 15 standards. Sitting on the Zoning Board now for seven years we have to follow those standards and the standards have been set forth for seven or eight years now. We do get people that oppose. We have turned some down. But only we have turned them down because they didn't meet the standards. Either the house was too small, you couldn't get entry way, you couldn't get parking, whatever it was. But, if a person meets these 15 standards as the law stands today, and as it has stood for seven years, there's not a lot that the Zoning Board of Appeals can do but to give them what they by law Page 111 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals can have. I mean, I just want you to know, you know you're saying you know are any of us effected? We're all effected by it. We have potentially been effected by it for that long and will be until someone stands up and changes that particular law. SUSAN LZRESE: My name is Susan Lzrese and I would just like to say what is at stake here is the nature of communities and the nature of the changing of communities in areas. My husband and I moved last August from Huntington where across the street from us was approved a one family apartment. Now I will tell you that in this apartment there were twelve people living. There were cousins, there were aunts, there were uncles, there were brothers, sisters. There were four cars parked two of which at any given moment weren't working and this indeed changed the nature of our neighborhood. I want you all to know that decisions that are made here effect a large number of people. Not only two or three people. The reason we came to Southold was because our quality of life in Huntington was being slowly eroded. The decisions that are made here by you effect a large number of people and the very nature of communities and that's what I would like to say. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you ma'am. Yes, Sir. H.W. GEIER: My name is H. W. Geier. I'm living on 265 Bay Haven Lane. What I don~t understand is how a financially residentially insecure young family could actually buy such a large house knowing quite well that there might be trouble. Trouble afterwards. Why do they get into such a venture and then hide behind your ordinance in Page 112 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals order to force us into agreeing to a change in the Building Code or in the character of our neighborhood. I find it's utterly unfair. Personally I went through a similar experience. I was just building and buying my own small business and was incapable of moving into a better area with my family. I turned my friends who in fact invited me to get out of North Yonkers, North West Yonkers, in order to enjoy a better neighborhood. I turned them all down and said well the time has not come for me yet. I still feel financially insecure although this would have meant a lot to my children that were just going to school. It would really have improved on their life you know during their childhood because the schools in Yonkers are terrible. They're still terrible. Unfortunately we waited too long and as a result built in our residential area a large 15 story high rise building was erected and we actually ran away from it. We finally decided to move to Southold in order to escape this disaster which we hope will not happen here. A second thought is why did we not get word from our attorneys when we bought our home on Bay Haven Lane that a similar situation might arise in the form of the ordinance of which you have to insist because we probably would have decided against it if there was just a likelihood of a similar situation that could develop here in our chosen area because we wanted to have bought our house on Bay Haven Lane and rustic Building Codes and trusting that we would live in a quite and protected area and so that we could really enjoy our, for the rest of our life in retirement and apparently we are exposed now to the same Page 113 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals dilemma which we tried to escape from so this is what I would like them to at least add to the dialogue between you and my family. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr. Geier. Yes, Sir. ROD FREMGEN: My name is Rod Fremgen. I live across the street from the house in question. I would like to know are there any particular regulations on cesspools with multiple dwellings and periodic cleaning of cesspools and so forth? MEMBER VILLA: Well, the town has a code .... ROD FREMGEN: A licensed cesspool cleaner required to do such a thing? MR. CHAIRMAN: You mean on a periodic basis? Are you referring to a periodic basis when once these are permitted? Is that what you're referring to Sir? (Discussions between everyone) MR. CHAIRMAN: On a periodic basis are they suppose to come in and check this, you know like every six months because there's more sewage being used or something like that? NORMAN WYNNE: I think that's what he's getting at. I believe that's his question. I believe what he's saying is, in a multiple dwelling are there any additional restrictions as to periodic inspection, draining, pumping or sewage? MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me just explain this to you. Originally when this law came into being there was a gentleman on the Board on the Town Board and again by the name of Paul Stautenberg and Paul Stautenberg is a noted and environmentalist. I'm not speaking for Page 114-Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8. 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals Paul Stautenberg, I'm not orchestrating anything at this point but he went to Suffolk County Health Services and they said we still construe this to be a one family dwelling. So to answer this nice gentleman's question to the best of my ability, I hope he's reading my lips, I assume, that there is no additional sewage cleaning required. (Mr. Wynne is relaying the statement to Mr. Fremgen who had a hearing problem.) NORMAN WYNNE: How about claiming a cesspool yourself? Is that allowable? MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know how you could. What would you do with the sewage? (Remarks being made by various people). MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes ma'am. ELAINE WHITE: My name is Elaine White and I live in Southold since 1988 and I work in Southold School. My concern is very much with Sue Lzrese. Her concern is that I've seen very often you know our school district has increased, our population has increased. We're bursting at the seams at the school right now. Our budget didn't pass. This is what is happening to Southold because many people are renting. We have a large home on Main Bayview Road which is the Section 8 people living in a home. My concern is that I do trust that if Mr. Conroy rents this to three people he had listed there who he will rent to I'm sure they will be fine people. My concern is that if there are some financial concerns he has about paying the taxes so Page 115 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals on he just might just have to sell his house and I doubt if someone would buy that house at the price it would go for, probably be very high and tear out a kitchen and make it a one family dwelling. MR. CHAIRMAN: He has to. They have to because the C of O will only read for a one family dwelling. When the inspection is done by the bank and the appraisal is done it will be for a one family dwelling and anybody else who comes in there will have to reapply but just let me say something to you. This gentleman has not come before us with any documentation that he is, I said that I would be the person that would be interested in an Accessory Apartment and my name will be listed in the paper and my neighbors will have the same right as you have the right tonight to come out and speak and he has not indicated that to us so I don't want you to get that idea that that's the reason why ---. ELAINE WHITE: But it's just as easy to pass something like that here. That other person will probably get another, that other person will probably get the CO and that person might be from Smithtown, just like the person who owns that house on Main Bayview and just rent it to anybody and there goes our community. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it has to be owner occupied. ELAINE WHITE: But could that person also just be someone who doesn't really know these people, or live with these people, like we do. It could be anyone who doesn't understand. That they think it's a multiple, this is a multiple family. I could bring my four cousins and my aunts and uncles, my dogs, my cat and there I, we just have Page 116 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals a concern about the validity of that house. That is the underline thing. If it's going to be that one family. HUGH CONROY: I've got an answer to that and I've said this before. If I'm living in a house and getting a rent from someone I have to live in that house. Right, according to the rules. If I sell the house, I can't sell the house until there out, right. I wonder where everybody's concern is with the houses that are rented year round, half year, weekly, monthly, biweekly. What is the difference? How many people live in a house that's rented year round? What make a family then? What makes a family if somebody comes out for two weeks? What makes a family for somebody that comes out for a month? Where are the concerns? (Everybody talking and neighbors getting nasty with Mr. Conroy) SUE MACCHIA:We did that. We moved out and we rented a house on Gin Lane and then we bought a house on Bay Haven Lane and we worked very hard, my husband and I with a 2 year old daughter to pay our mortgage, but we're one family. I could do just the same. Build an extra floor, rent. (talking to someone else) We lived up in Garden City or New Hyde Park in Elmont, where there are thousands of rentals. You couldn't park and that's what's going to turn out to be. SECRETARY BOARD KOWALSKI>>: You're assuming that it's going to be abused, that's all. Page 117 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know what else I can to tell you people. I appreciate ...... . The gentleman with the striped shirt. Just a minute Mr. Geier. The gentleman with the striped shirt. TOM FOX: My name is Tom Fox. I'd like to know the impact on the Southold Town Code if there are welfare families who get in there and Mr. Conroy for whatever reason is forced to dispose of his house, what effect is the presence of the welfare families have there with respect to evicting those people from that house? MR. CHAIRMAN: First of all you can't discriminate, number 1. Number 2, I could not possibly answer that question. All I can tell you is that when anybody and I'm talking generically, goes to sell a house that has some sought of kitchen unit in it, on the second floor, the appraiser is automatically going to say where is your "two family" C of O. This gentleman does not have, will not receive, will never see a two family C of O, out of this thing. He has a Special Permit for, he possibly will have a Special Permit for an Accessory Apartment, which will die, dispose of, distinguish, whatever you want, whatever phrase you want to use, the minute he sells this piece of property and he must live there. (Interrupted), But that's what I said to Mr. Wynne. This is where it has to start. You're going to have to deal with it in an administrative fashion and that's the concern that we have. You will have to do it on the basis on our Code Committee. You know, it's a nice town and it is small enough to deal with on a one to one basis and that's what's going to have to be Page 118 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals done. You're going to have to deal with it on that basis. It is beyond our purview, Mr. Geier. H. GEIER: I also see a (too many people talking) case of this very nature coming from your ordinance. (People talking) I have a house which is large enough, children are grown up, and they leave home and their parents are getting older and their older themselves and of course a fixed income and they might wish to utilize their larger apartment or their larger homes in order to rent them out in order to (other voices interfering) just in order to support their income, Now yet exterminating against those people because they might live in homes which they bought at a later date. so apparently you are just singling out homes which were built before a certain time, In other words you classify those homes which are permitted to be rented out as two family homes according to a ( ) case, but you discriminate against those people that might be compelled to look for additional income, have homes which are of a younger date or purchased at a later time and they cannot do the same thing, MR. CHAIRMAN: The law was originally established Mr. Geier to take care of existing housing stock, That's what it was established for, It was not necessarily established for new homes. H, GEIER: Yes, but this is discrimination, This is unfair because ..... for certain homes which are built lets say a certain time ago why don't you apply the same right and privileges in ( ) homes? Mr. Chairman and Geier speaking at the same time,) Page 119 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: I know, but I didn't write the law, Sir and that's the reason why. The laws, I just explained to your president that that's what has to be done. If that's the way ......... . (Mr. Geier talking with the Chairman at the same time.) MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to say something that you all seem to be concerned about this law that has been on the books for quite some time. There are other things going on in the town that are worse. I mean the issue that we had before us are for Bed and Breakfast there are suggestions now that some of those people and those people who applied don't even have to come before us, that you wouldn't even have to have say. There would be no public hearing, they could have a Bed and Breakfast, people come, yes ma'am, what I'm saying to you is if you want, if you're frustrated about this you have to come, speak up at those Co-Committees, you have to speak up to your Town Board because the Town Board is where all of this is coming from and don't blame the precedence administration. I can remember the accessory law going over and over, over again with seven people in the room representing the entire Southold Town. I don't know how many different ( ) ideas you can get with just seven people, but that's basically how that law got into existence. The more people that come, the more people that 'offer their opinion, the better the law is going to be. You know if you're dissatisfied with this and believe me you should be, but there are ot~er things that are much more, that are going to effect you much more drastically. The Bed and Breakfast Law is going to be one. That's going to be Page 120 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals strangers in your neighborhood every weekend. They could always lower their price ma'am, but there's going to be different strangers in ---. (Interruption ) No, not now, but neither were Accessory Apartments up until this gentleman made his application. Right ma'am, but he could just as very well have Bed and Breakfast and not even come here. That's what I'm trying to explain to you and what you need, if you needed some place to go, go to your Town Board, go to your Councilman, go to those Co-Committee meetings, give them your suggestions and tell them what you think. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: They adopt the laws. MEMBER DINIZIO: There the ones. Those Co-Committees, we attend them all and honestly, I mean it's tough to come up with ideas unless people are there. You know, I've viewed it a little differently until Mr. Wynne spoke and in all honestly I viewed the Accessory Law just a little bit differently and you may not have changed my mind Mr. Wayne, but certainly you have focused a problem that will definitely effect my opinion when asked if we ever discussed this again. However, it exists and it has existed for some time. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not up to us to discuss it. It's up to you to bring it back on the floor and that's where it has to be discussed. MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't want you to get the impression that I'm saying to you, you know there's nothing you can do about it, because man, you can do something about it tomorrow at 8:30 when Town Hall opens up, if that's what you intend to do, but you know we have to follow our standards. Our standards are written, you Page 121 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199q Southold Town Board of Appeals know we have to look at those standards, if they meet them, there's not a lot that we can do about it, but, hey, you know, give them a chance, give your Councilman and Supervisor a chance too. Thank you for listening. MR. CHAIRMAN: There's a gentleman in the back, yes. ARTHUR WELLS: I'm Arthur Wells and I live on 580 Gin Lane. My property abuts against Conroys. Now, in paragraph B, I don~t know if you have one of these in front of you, and line 1, he states "our house is surrounded by undeveloped lots, one of which we own." Now in order to own a lot you have to have a deed to it, right, and he has 300 feet on his deed, now where does the other lot come in and how could my house be undeveloped, I abut against him? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, it was a mistake. We saw your house when we were there last Saturday, Sir. ARTHUR WELLS: Yeah, but how could he say that my house is undeveloped ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe he was referring to the pond area as being a separate lot. I have no idea. We can ask him. ARTHUR WELLS: Why do you say my lot is undeveloped? HUGH CONROY: I didn't say your lot was undeveloped. ARTHUR WELLS. Well, you state it right there. Your surrounded by undeveloped lot. HUGH CONROY: ARTHUR WELLS: a deed to ---? am. How? Do you know what a lot is? You have to have Page 122 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals HUGH CONROY: Well, excuse me, Mr. Wells I didn't know that. What I meant was that there another piece of parcel land between yours and where my house ends that's --- ARTHUR WELLS: Well, which lot is it, what parcel is it? HUGH CONROY: Where the pond is! ARTHUR WELLS: You have 300 feet on your deed. HUGH CONROY: Yeah. ARTHUR WELLS: And that's what you have. Did you classify that undeveloped7 HUGH CONROY: I'm not a lawyer. ARTHUR WELLS: That's all I have to say. I have a revised and when I bought the lot, his original lot was 400 feet and I bought 100 feet of the south side of it and I added it on to my deed. MR, CHAIRMAN: I see. So you're lot number 3 when you added that other. ARTHUR WELLS: Yes and he says he's the only one that has 300 feet. Well, I have 300 feet too plus I own the lot on the water side. MR. CHAIRMAN: So, you're lot number 4 also. ARTHUR WELLS: Yes. All right. You'll take that into consideration. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes Sir. LEWIS COTIGNOLA: My name is Lewis F.X. Cotignola. I also live down midway east in the development. After listening to all of this I moved here also in 1992. Someone brought up a very interesting question here as to when you close once you buy a house, you close on the home, I was never notified that you have an exception ( ) to Page 123 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1990, Southold Town Board of Appeals a one family residence. What recourse do I have as far as a lawsuit is concerned? Shouldn't my lawyer at the closing, shouldn't that be stated in there that you have an exception? MR. CHAIRMAN: Sir, this is by Special Permit before this Board. It is generic to every single solitary piece of property in the entire Town of Southold. I don't care if it's Nassau Point, Orient, up, up, in Grand View, the Crokos application was before us again. That goes back to my original question to Mr. Arnoff tonight. Would we still be here on this Bed and Breakfast if the house was not worth $800,000? The gentleman that was before us tonight, Mr. Crokos, anyone of those lots in Grand View which are worth a half-million dollar apiece. I'm just saying it's generic to everything. It is generic to every piece of property. So, your attorney would not have known that. OK, and to be honest with you. LEWIS COTIGNOLA: OK, Well I just, well, let me just state here as a member of the association, the community that I picked exception to the exception and I do not approve of. Thank you very much. 11:20 P.M.-T7 Appl. No. ~,239 _ MARGARET BEST AND ADYLYN SYVERSON. This is a request for a variance under Article ILIA, Section 100-30A.1 based upon the May 2, 199LL Notice of Disapproval by the Page 124 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals Building Inspector for approval of the proposed insufficient lot area and insufficient lot width of proposed Parcels #1 and #2. Location of Property: Private Road #17 extending off the easterly side of Camp Mineola Road, Mattituck, N.Y., County Tax Map Parcel No. 1000-123-6-17. The subject premises contains a total lot area of approximately 1.2 acre(s) in total area and is located in the R-u~0 Low-Density Residential Zone District. The Chairman waived the reading of the Legal Notice of Hearing for the record and application. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have before me a survey which is dated April 4, 1994, by Anthony W. Lewandowski and revised indicating two parcels of property, Parcel #1, Lot 287, a total lot area of 26,742 or .61u, acres plus May 31, 1994, area 27,029 less #2, 29,679 less 782 or a revised lot area of 28,897 or a total of .663 acres and I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. JAMES FITZGERALD: As is indicated in the application the property was jointly owned by sisters, Mrs. Best and Mrs. Syverson who are the surviving owners that started out as five siblings and it gets down to two ( ) if you had exceedingly expenses and complicated legal manipulations. Nothing ( ) just the going from five people to four people, three people, two people and Mrs. Best and Mrs. Syverson are interested in being able to do what they will with their own dwellings. These are both legally existing dwellings on this one piece of property. The property including the dwellings is owned Page 125 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ $outhold Town Board of Appeals jointly and therefore they can't, she can't go out and sell her half to somebody that couldn't get an Accessory Apartment some place ( ). There are four Best children and three Syverson children ( ) either Mrs. Best or Mrs. Syverson side, then we end up starting over in another one of these legal things where nobody can do anything individually without the approval of all the other owners and what undoubtedly will happen again ( ) the implication is that they'll have to sell the property just to settle the argument and the property has been in the family for more than 75 years and they would like it to stay that way but in order to keep it that way it would be nice if they each owned their own half and that's what it boils down to. Nothing, no change is proposed other than this line in the map. No additional families living in any of these houses, no new cesspools, no new nothing except the line in the map. MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the situation with the Planning Board at this time with this? JAMES FITZGERALD: I have not applied to the Planning Board and the reason is that everytime we make a new application it cost I~, 5 or $600 and I've try to orchestrate these applications so that there was the best chance of finding out early that somebody was not going to approve it if such was the case and thereby minimizing the amount of money that was invested in a what turned out to be a lost course which of course is ( ) in itself. We certainly will apply to the Planning Board. However, I would hope that theirconcern and Mr. Page 126 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199L[ Southold Town Board of Appeals Ward's letter to you would not have any impact upon your own deliberations. MEMBER VILLA: Where do you Stand with the Health Department? see you were turned down. Review? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes, we're going to have to get a variance. MEMBER VILLA: From their Board of Review? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes. MEMBER VILLA: OK Why don~t we hold this up until you MR. CHAIRMAN: variance. MEMBER VILLA: You've got to go before their Board of get the say. I would be very be interested in your That's what I was going to interested because basically they're going to water supply and your sewage disposal. JAMES FITZGERALD: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: And if there's any changes to change the whole map all over again. in that then we~ve got becomes a kind of whose Mrs. Syverson is anxious Would your approval be MEMBER VILLA: Right, They might very well change ..... MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me Bob. Without ..... MEMBER VILLA: If you could come up with their approval then it makes it a lot easier for this Board. JAMES FITZGERALD: OK. I think that it doing what to whom kind of thing and we, to get something approved by someone. contingent upon theirs? Page 127 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER VILLA: To a large degree it would have a lot to do with my vote on it. Yes, because I came out of the Health Department and that was one of the functions we use to do. If fact, I use to be Chairman of the Board of Review for about 20 years and we handle those kind of applications. JAMES FITZGERALD: I understand --- MR. CHAIRMAN: I hadn't spoken to him about this tonight. This is just something that evolved when we were discussing this. MEMBER VILLA: Let me say this. We handled those kind of applications quite frequently and the Boards weren't changing density which you're not doing. You have two existing homes. We abuse the dress the fact that you had a proper water supply and sewage disposal, but I would assume that if you go through the Board of Review you'll probably going to come out with an approval somewhere along the lines subject to whatever they want and then you present that here I think that would have a big bearing on this Board. I know it would on me, because you're not really changing anything. We know then that you have an acceptable water supply, an acceptable sewage system and we, I would be open. I don't speak for the rest of the Board, but I would be open to vote on something like that without any problem. JAMES FITZGERALD: OK. We know that we have an acceptable water supply and an acceptable water sewage. MEMBER VILLA: 5o it's a matter of just grinding and testing. Page 128 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals JAMES FITZGERALD: We tested the water preliminary to making this submission to the Board and the only problem with that is the size of the plots and they understand as I've said here that we're not going to put up any new houses --- MEMBER VILLA: You're not changing anything, so really, I, I know. As I say, I handled many of them before so it's just a matter of presenting what they want and getting their blessing. MR. CHAIRMAN: When are you going before them Jim? JAMES FITZGERALD: We haven't got Notice of Schedule yet and I understand that it's a significant wait. I think what we're looking for is some indication that somebody thinks it's OK. That somebody at least doesn't have any objection to it, subject of course as always to the reviewing approval by all the other agencies that are involved. (Board Members discussing amongst themselves) MEMBER VILLA: Their looking for some guidance. I can understand the position of the applicants not wanting to spend a lot of money if they're going to get turned down somewhere along the line, but you know, I think it's just a matter of getting the approval from the Health Department. If you've got good water and sewage it's just a matter of going through their process and I would feel very competent that you'll come up with it because you're not changing anything really. BOARD SECRETARY KOWALSKI: Well, Sir, Planning Boards request that the Zoning until they do SEQRA? how do you feel about the Board not make a decision Page 129 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199Lr Southold Town Board of Appeals (Board Members discussing amongst themselves) MEMBER DINIZIO: I think the first thing we have to do is make it clear to the applicant that the Health Department is going to weigh heavy on our decision. Now, get your answer from the Health Department, come back to us. If we make a decision now, and we can, and the Health Department says something else you're back to us again. Another application. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's why I like holding it in abeyance. You know what I'm saying. MEMBER DINIZIO: Go to the Health Department. Come back to us. I mean, I~11 say right out right now, that's going to be the single most important thing to me, you know voting in this. M. CHAIRMAN: And at the same time make your application with the Planning Board and we'll get the whole thing taken care of. You'll probably be done in six weeks, two months and we'll get it all done and you got everything and then you can do what you want. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just have one more question Jerry? The cottage that's on this parcel too, is that livable space, is that rented? JAMES FITZGERALD: Yes, there both .... MEMBER DINIZIO: Was it rented out or is it to family? JAMES FITZGERALD: Both very lovely livable dwellings. MEMBER DINIZIO: Is it rented, or is it family? JAMES FITZGERALD: No, yeah, Mrs. Best lives in the one on Parcel 2 which is the one nearest to the water and Mrs. Syverson lives in the other. Page 130 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 1994 Southold Town Board of Appeals MEMBER DINIZIO: Now what about the cottage? (All talking at one time) MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me give you the history on this Jim, OK. Originally and correct me if I'm wrong. Mrs. Best, originally you came before us to change the front porch to living area on your house and then you came before us and we granted you the setback for you to enclose the front porch I cottage which Jimmy alleged is now a Syverson. You brought this, it was a believe. Then after that, the house which belongs to Mrs. cottage and you asked us to make a house out of it. A year round house. MARGARET BEST: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: We then granted you the approval to do that. Isn't that correct? MARGARET BEST: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: So now their coming before us to divide the property under this --- MARGARET BEST: The property, the house. As it stands now, I own my sister's house, she owns my house and it's all a mishmash. MEMBER VILLA: You have COs at the present time for two year round houses on this property then? MARGARET BEST: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Everything has been before us. What I'm trying to say is that everything has been before this Board. MEMBER VILLA: They've got valid COs on the two existing homes. Page 131 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Southold Town Board of Appeals MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. They just happen to have one piece of property. So that's basically how the situation ---. MARGARET BEST: Most of our neighbors have just 50 feet you know, and our property happened to be 100 and that's, our next door neighbor has 100 feet but those are the only two properties that are 100 feet. The rest of them are 50 or smaller. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right, but what I just wanted the Board to understand was that you have gone through this process and we have been down there several times. I can remember when you redid the front porch. Mr. Douglas was on the Board at the time. We were measuring from your edge of the porch all the way out. Remember it was all extricated, everything was out. We went all the way out to the bulkhead then and then the second time when you wanted to redo the cottage and make that a permanent house. Remember that, and you raised that up, changed all the walls, rebuilt the whole place. I actually didn't realize it was the same place when I came down there. It was absolutely gorgeous, but these have all been before us. I think the garage was even before us to rebuild the garage. So, let's hold that off for at least a month or so and see how you do and we'll go from there. I'll make a motion recessing this without a (). MEMBER DINIZIO: Second. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. MR. CHAIRMAN: Hearing no further comment I'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. Page 132 -Hearing Transcript Regular Meeting - June 8, 199~ Soutl~old Town Board of Appeals MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll second it. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor? MEMBERS: Aye. Prepared from tape recordings of actual hearings. LF/LK RECEIVED AND FILED THE SOUT~C,£D TOSVN C,,,,,~.~