HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-11/08/1993 HEARING PUBLIC HEARING
BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
November 8, 1993
(7:30 p. m. Hearings Commenced)
P r e s e n t : HON. GERARD P. GOEHRINGER,
Chairman
SERGE DOYEN, Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR., Member
ROBERT A. VILLA, Member
RICHARD C. WILTON, Member
LINDA KOWALSKI,
Clerk-Assistant to Board
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 2
I N D E X
APPLN. # APPLICANT Paqes
4199 PETER PSYLLOS. 3- 35
4200 JOHN E. ANDRESEN AND OTHERS. · 36-42
4201 NORTH FORK COUNTRY CLUB. 43-52
4191 BECKY JOHNSTON . 53-73
4195 PETROL STATIONS LTD. 36
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 3
APPLN. NO. 4199 - PETER PSYLLOS.
Variance to the Zoning Ordinance, Article III, Section t00-33
and Article XXIII, Section 100-231 for permission to locate
proposed tennis court structure enclosed with ten-foot high
fencing in the front yard area~ Location of Property: 2867
Ruth Road, Mattituck, NY; County Tax Map Parcel No,
1000-106-1-1.11.
7:40 p.m. (The Chairman opened the hearing and read the Legal
Notice and application for the record.)
THE CHAIRMAN: I have a copy of a survey produced by
Young and Young indicating the actually very beautiful house
that exists on this particular piece of property. The
application before us is that of a tennis court of approximately
sixty by a hundred-twenty. It is in the front yard area, and I
have a copy of that and a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map
indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Mr.
Bruer, you would like to be heard?
Appearance: Rudolph H. Bruer, Esq.,
for the Applicant.
MR. BRUER: Yes. Mr. Chairman and Members of the
Board: In behalf of Mr. Psyllos, we have here a situation of a
corner lot. The house is actually based upon, is located on two
rights-of-ways. The house is set some two hundred and some feet
back on, 217 feet from one right-of-way and 54.2 from the other,
w~ich would be the front yard~ The front yard would be 54.2.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 4
We have a unique situation here where the ordinance, town
ordinance requires that we have two front yards because of the
two rights-of-way. As such, it is impractical to have a tennis
court in an area other than in one of the two front yards which
in this case would be designated, I believe, as a sideyard. The
tennis court --the property, as you can see on the map, is 150
feet wide by some 400 2eet long. The area where the tennis
court would be located is in an area of 150 feet wide by 217.8
feet long. The tennis court is 75 by 120 and would adequately
fit in there with respect to the property. We would request
that the tennis court be set back 60 feet from the quote-unquote
front yard right-of-way,, and it would then be 75 feet back from
the other right-of-way°
As you can see, the standard here is the practical
difficulties one because, with respect to a tennis court and
this particular piece of property, which is unusually large for
the area, at least for the area to the east and to the south,
the only logical place for it is in that area. It also goes on
the standard of being unique. It is unique because of the two
front yards. Having had an adequate backyard, if it was not on
two streets, would be no problem other than coming in here for a
variance with respect to the fence. The fence is going to be
ten feet in height and I believe it meets with the area, and I
don't think is re~!ly going to change the character of the
neighborhood° I believe there is a residence within two
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93
premises from this one.--I think it is two or three-- which also
has a tennis Court. I believe a variance must have been granted
and can look that up. We have premises here to the east of us
wherein a variance was granted, I think back in '86, with
respect to a barn located in the front yard.
Other than that, I have the engineer who is going to
construct the tennis court; and I have the Psyllos here for any
questions the Board may have.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? I really don't feel
this mike is working. I don't know how you people can hear out
there.
AUDIENCE VOICES: Now it is.
THE CHAIRMAN: There is absolutely no pre-amp to it,
and that is why I have to talk this way, and I apologize. What
about lighting, Mr. Bruer?
MR. BRUER: At this particular point there is no plans
for lighting although I have not discussed that option with my
client, but we would like to have that option. I believe the
Board has been out there and has observed the property. The
area where the tennis court is going into is an area which is
quite heavily overgrown with bramble, dead trees, some lovely
old trees. By the way with respect to the trees, it is the
intention of the applicant to preserve t~e trees as much as
possible, particularly the-older ones, and they have that
designed that they think they will be able to do that° I
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 6
believe they also would like to take into consideration the
neighbors, which the neighbor to the east I think the Board will
remember, has a six-foot-plus fence° The tennis court would be
properly laid out so that the drainage with respect to the
tennis court would definitely not flow towards that neighbor.
We would like to be good neighbors and not to create any
problems.
THE CHAIRMAN: You said you had the gentleman who is
going to construct it with you?
MR. BRUER: Mr. Corazzini is here.
THE CHAIRMAN: Could I just ask him a couple questions?
MR. BRUER: Please.
THE CHAIRMAN: How are you tonight, sir?
RICHARD CORAZZINI: Good.
THE CHAIRMAN: In reference to a starting point~ of
course, we know the property falls away from the house, right.
Would you be starting on-grade from the house and then building
it up, or would you be cutting into the property, so as to make
it completely level?
MR. CORAZZINI: Well, we have to cut in to make it
completely level, obviously, to be a level tennis court. What
we planned to do was build retaining walls on that end to hold
that dirt back, and actually have stairs going down into the
court.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 7
THE CHAIRMAN: How deep do you think that would be?
Do you have any "guesstimate"?
MR. CORAZZINI: I don't believe we are going to have
to do more than -- I don't think it is going to be more than 3
or 4 feet of soil, and we can use a lot of that soil at the
other end to fill that end in.
THE CHAIRMAN: What are you going to do on the other
end, in retrospect, use railroad ties or something to retain
this?
MR. CORAZZINI: I don't think on the other end that
will be necessary to have any railroad ties, because that end,
once we have the railroad ties on the end where we have to take
a lot of the dirt from, we can move it to the low end and level
the low end. Once we have that done, we will just put the fence
around the low end.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any existing soil that has to be moved,
how would that be --Let's assume that we had an overcut of 5
feet or 10 feet around the thing where, conceivably, the fence
is going to go and so on and so forth-- so as to cause or to
stop any erosion, what would you use? Would you immediately
plant grass? Would you use sod, what would you do?
MR. CORAZZINI: That is what you have to do-- You have
to get some sort of growth established, ivy, grass, sod,
whatever, but yuu do have to put some sort of vegetation in so
it does hold the water back. Otherwise, you would have a big
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 8
erosion problem. We also wanted again --what Mr. Bruer said--
as far as the trees go, when we went in to first stake it out,
one of the first things that Mr. Psyllos said, he said, "I am a
guy from the city, and I do want to keep as much, as many of
these trees as I can. I don't· want to just come in here and cut
everything down. '~ So that is another thing we are going to do:
And that is preserve most of the bigger trees.
THE CHAIRMAN: Good. Okay, thank you very much. We
will see what develops throughout the hearing.
MR. BRUER: Two other points. One: It is the
intention of the applicant to put in plantings to help keep
erosion from happening. Two: I would like to point out to the
Board I have been informed by the applicants that within three
years they should be out here as permanent residents° It is
just a matter of selling and getting out o~ Queens. And, third,
I didn't point out, although I believe the Board, I supplied the
Board with a copy of what we call a declaration of Stanley
Sledjeski, the developer of the property, wherein he has agreed
to amend the covenants with respect to this lot, stating that he
has no objection, Number One, to a tennis court being built;
Two: That he has no objection to the fence being built around
it; and Three: As a matter of fact, in that document he
indicates that he thought the tennis court would be for the
neighborhood and wouldn't hurt the environment any. Any further
questions?
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 9
THE CHAIRMAN: Those covenants and restrictions are
still in effect, is what you are telling me?
MR. BRUER: They are in effect, but the covenants by
their terms say they can be amended by the declarant Stanley
Sledjeski. I saw Mr. Sledjeski on Saturday, and we discussed
this in detail, and he has executed the document that is before
yOU.
THE CHAIRMAN: You know, you bring up that point and I
never mentioned this in the beginning of the hearing, but I, of
course, am related to him by marriage, okay? And he has owned
this property for, I guess he owned it for three or four years
prior to him selling it to a second owner or first owner, and
Mr. and Mrs. Psyllos are a second owner, I assume.
MR. BRUER: That is correct.
THE CHAIRMAN: I hope no one has any objection to my
being here sitting on this particular application. If Mr. Brady
does, I will get to that point, Mr. Brady. Go ahead.
MR. BRUER: I just want to make one other point before
I forget it -- is that the Psyllos have seven children, all of
whom, including Mr. Psyllos, are avid tennis players. One of
the reasons they chose this particular piece of property was
that they believed that they could have a tennis court here, and
the size of the property, that was one of th~ inducements for
them to purchase.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 10
THE CHAIRF~N: Okay. Thank you, sir. Is there
anybody else who would like to speak in favor of this
application?
MRo BRUER: The Ps¥11oses are here.
THE CHAIRMAN: How do you do?
MR. PSYLLOS: Just one other point. Two letters had
to be sent to the adjoining neighbors, Mr. Brady and Mr.
DeChirico, and Mr. DeChirico the other day wrote us a very nice
letter: We would love to see the tennis court there and it
would enhance the property value.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
MR. BRUER: I believe the Board has a copy of that.
THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. We have a copy of both letters, I
believe.
BOARD CLERK: No, we don't have that one. We have
two, one from Mr. Brady and one from Mrs. Brady.
(DeChirico letter handed up by counsel°)
THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anybody else who would like to
speak in favor of this application? Anybody like to speak
against the application? Mr. Brady, we are ready for you. Are
you Mrs. Brady? How do you do?
MARY S. BRADY: I am Mary S. Brady. I am a co-owner
of the property adjacent the appli~cant, and I have a statement
to make about the situation. We have been living there for
twenty-seven years, and we have five acres of land, starting at
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 11
the Sound, right down to the roadway. The application by Mr.
and Mrs. Psyllos for a variance to the front yard adjacent to
ours for the purpose of installing an (word inaudible) tennis
court is directly contrary to the established order for front
yards standards in zoning. This area is one of the most unique,
desirable and picturesque locations on the North Fork. We all
know that these characteristics are supremely coveted in the
real-estate market. A fact in point, Mr. Ford (phonetic, no
spelling supplied record), who sold his parcel to Mr. and Mrs.
Psyllos, made a pointed reference in his newspaper advertisement
to sell the premises, that a scenic, parklike view was part of
the highly desirable aspect here. Since our grounds are an
obvious target of this inducement, it should also seem
persuasive that it is to the interest of the area that the
spirit and standards which we adhere to be supported rather than
thwarted.
This proposed tennis court presents distressing
problems. Although a 120-foot by 60-foot area has been
predicted to us as the boundary of the court~ it omits the
peripheral area to be cleared. The combined areas would
constitute a denuding of a forest stand. There is not enough
space here to present a harmonious and compatible relationship
with the terrain. The destruction of a stand of trees reaching
a seventy-foot height would be inevitable if this preject is
permitted. On more complicated level is ~he fact that the
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 12
proposed slab of asphalt is being convoluted to repose on the
side of a hill. The terrain offers no flat land ordinarily
considered for a tennis court. A bulldozer would be required to
excavate a massive amount of land, since there is a substantial
change in elevation to the degree of eight feet and more from
end-to-end. This would devalue our property and give vent to an
eyesore at the entrance of our property, along the right-of-way
and from our yard.
In addition, there is a strong probability that a berm of
substantial size and height would be utilized as part of the
convoluted scheme to fit this round peg in a square hole. If
the 10-foot chainlink fense is added, it may well be thrust over
a berm to present a grotesque spectacle. At the very least, an
authorized professional topographer should be retained to make a
determination presented on a topographical map to illustrate for
analysis the extent and depth that this project should be
subjected. It would then follow that feasibility analysis could
be made as to what effect the land contours likely would have
toward the adjacent terrain. A clear prospectus is essential to
determine what exactly is going to be the consequences to this
sensitive area.
There is no evidence that a status quo, no evidence that
the status quo of the Psyllos property presents them with a
hardship to compel them to seek relief through a variance of
zoning° This variance would disrupt and put distress upon the
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 13
natural balance which exists here and upset an orderly zoning
now in effect. I, therefore, submit that, all things
considered, this application for a variance to permit the
construction of a tennis court in the front yard of Mr. and Mrs.
Psyllos be denied.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mrs. Brady.
MR. BRADY: Chairman Goehringer, Gentlemen of the
Board, Madam Secretary: My name is Warren B. Brady, and I live
at 3500 Private Road Number 13 in Mattituck, New York. Now,
Private Road Number 13 runs from Bergen Avenue up to my
property, which I have a 25-foot right-of-way to; and the other
people in the area are calling it Ruth Road, but I have never
heard any official confirmation of that address. I am probably
a generation older than most of you gentlemen, and you probably
will never have heard of me. However, I first came out here in
the winter of '35-'36 and delivered a farm tractor to Ed King in
Orient, and I dealt with, I worked for a farm-equipment dealer
and power mowers and had a lot of estates out here that I worked
with. I took the business over in 1938 myself and operated it,
and then I got into the overhead door business and I put doors
out on Plum Island, Greenport Firehouse. I helped build this
building, the rolling counter shutters were all put in by my
company; and I have been active in the community, charter member
of Patchogue Lions Club, Past Exalted Ruler of the Elks,
Patchogue Lodge No. 1323, member of the Good Fellows Club thirty
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 14
/~,
years; member of the Lions, charter member of Patchogue, helped
form it in '46-'47; so I am a man who has tried to give back a
little to the community, and all we are basically asking for is
a little consideration here that what we have built over the
twenty-seven years --We have had a lot of people, people in the
Hamptons come over on tours to see our little studio and our
home and our grounds; so we a~e quite proud of them and would
like to keep them that way. Before reading the letter that I
submitted, I would like to say that Mr. Bruer's handling of the
dimensions seemed to be a little obscure and nebulous; and has
the contractor submitted a topographical map, and has he
submitted exact dimensions of where this is going and what area
will be influenced~ bringing the grade, because we would hate to
see this beautiful wooded spot go down the drain°
All right, the letter that I wrote to your Board was
regarding variance application of Psyllos for tennis court,
hearing 11/8/93.
Gentlemen: Last week we received a notice in the mail
from a Richard Corazzini, asphalt contractor, on behalf of Peter
Psyllos, our new summertime neighbor on the east side of our
front yard. Enclosed was a miniature copy of a survey for the
subject property with a rough sketch on the survey, showing a
proposed location of the tennis court with boundary clearances.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 15
Someone notified Mr. Psyllos and suggested that he
call me to resolve our differences, after I had appeared at the
office here to complain. He did call me last week after he was
notified. He told me on the phone that he was already in
contract with Mr. Corazzini for construction of the court.
Therefore, he had to do the job. I have never met Mr. Psyllos,
so we did not know of his plans. He contacted me after the
fact. He to~d me that he was a licensed real-estate broker and
a Certified Public Accountant. He said he closed on the
property in early July '93, 'and in early September he started
shopping for a tennis court contractor.
Now, I expressed surprise that a man with his real-estate
background did not include the variance approval in his purchase
contract and not to close on the property without it. He said
at that time that he wasn't planning on a tennis court, but he
just got up a few minutes ago and said, "I have been looking
forward to building this tennis court," so there is a little
confusion there.
I tried to reason with Mr. Psyllos not to remove all
those mature trees and not to try to build a tennis court on the
side of a hill. 'He was unconcerned; so I asked.him had he ever
planted a tree? He said, "No, I am a city person from
Flushing." I also suggested that he and his grown sons could
play tennis on the courts by their Greek church on ~reakw~ter
Road, a five-minute walk from their home, or on the Mattituck
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 16
Hi§h School public courts. He could not be appeased although
this is only his summer weekend activity.
In regard to the survey and sketch showing location of
proposed tennis court that was submitted to us, I detected a
deceptive sketch and setback dimensions. To confirm this, I
hired a Civil Engineer, Mr. John Guildi, C.E., 197 Shore Road,
Southampton, New York, who was in the employ of the County of
Suffolk for thirty years as an Engineer on the Shinnecock Canal
Locks, on the Southwest Sewer District~ et cetera. He checked
the measurements and found the 75-foot setback from the
east-west right-of-way, plus the 120-foot court length, would
place the north end of the court right up against the house~
which would then block their garage-door opening.
The Engineer estimated the change of elevation from
the north end of the court to the south end was seven to eight
feet. And a four to five-foot change of elevation side to side,
east to west. To level the court would require an excavation at
the north end at least eight foot deep and about 70 foot wide,
tapering off to the south end. The retaining walls would have
to be built across the north end of the court 8-foot high and
tapering off for about 120 feet alongside to the south end. The
entire lot would have to be stripped of all those beautiful
trees to accommodate this project. From a practical and _
ecological standpoint, this project is not feasible.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 17
One: The plot is completely unsuited for tennis court
due to topography and dense growth of mature trees which would
have to be destroyed.
Two: Loss of trees and asphalt paving would greatly
increase water runoff through Brady property and east-west
road. It presents a problem because Psyllos' private road does
not have any catch basins or drywells to halt the runoff, and,
in addition, their house of about 5,000 square-foot, the roof
does not have gutters, leaders or drywells.
Three: Will violate front-yard status and property
covenants.
FOur: Will change character of area from wooded glen
to school playground with noise.
Five: Will seriously depress our property value and
be an eyesore 365 days a year.
Six: We have spent 27 years improving this property.
Mrs. Brady has planted over a thousand trees and shrubs, plus
seedlings on the bluff, to stop erosion. We have created a
parklike arboretum for our neighbors and ourselves to enjoy.
Seven: The enclosed covenants applying to Psyllos
property express clearly the tennis courts are not permitted,
and also prohibits cutting down trees after the house location
has been established.
Eight: We have made additional investments, about
$150,000 in our property, based on the security afforded by
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 18
these covenants established in 1974. Our present taxes are
twelve thousand and in December they will be over $12,500 a
year. We are paying dearly to maintain this beautiful estate
for everyone's enjoyment. We see no reason for the Town of
Southold to exercise eminent domain in this ,case. Therefore, we
beg you to weigh your decision and deny this application for a
variance. Yours truly, Warren Brady.
Thank you; and may i now call Mr. John Guildi, Civil
Engineer from Southampton; and he measured the property.
THE CHAIRMAN: How are you doing, Mr. Guildi?
MR. GUILDI: My investigation --I did not do a survey
of the property. However, at Mr. Brady's request, I did go over
and measure up from the corner property marker there --Mr. Brady
had a sketch which indicated that the tennis court was going to
be set back 75 feet from that east-west right-of-way and then
would then proceed another 120 feet to the end of the court°
That is a total of 195 feet, and so we just rough measured. As
I said, I didn't do a bona fide survey, but we did measure with
a tape the 195 feet and found ourselves up in the yard on the
north side of the driveway, which is not indicated on the survey
that I have in front of me that was --I don't know if this is
updated survey or not, but there was a survey done for Mr. and
Mrs. Ford just indicating the house and the setback, et cetera.
It really doesn't indicate on that survey where the driveway is
and the grass. However, our measurement indicated tnat we would
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 19
be north of the driveway pretty close up to the house, maybe 20,
30 feet north the house, which seems to bear out with this
dimension indicated on this survey of roughly 218 feet --if you
take your 75 and your 120, your 195 and 218 --that Puts you 25
feet or so off the house. It puts you right into the driveway
and grass. I find it hard to believe that was in the intention
of the owner, so either there is an error in the sketch that was
given to Mr. Brady or somebody has a serious mistake here.
Looking at the grades again --We did not do a topographic
survey, but just by eye it is very obvious, and I understand
from listening to you gentlemen that the Board has been out
there, some of you at least. It was pretty obvious to me that
there is probably a six or eight or even greater difference in
elevation from the north to the south, and quite substantial
change of grade east-to-west also. My suggestion to Mr. Brady
was, I don't see how anybody can really make an intelligent
-decision on this without a bona fide topographic map indicating
the contours as they exist now and what they are going to look
like after the structure is constructed. He is (brief phrase
inaudible due to signal ending tape) ancillary structures such
as retaining walls, drainage, fences. Now -uI'am not a tennis
player myself; however, every tennis court I have seen-- I have
never seen one with just a ten-foot fence. Most oX them are 14,
16, 18 feet. Maybe I am o£f base on that, but I think it is
something that perhaps should be investigated because I know if
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 20
I was playing tennis, a ten-foot-high fence would never keep my
balls in the court. I know that. So if we are talking about
retaining walls and then fences on top of the retaining walls,
and the possibility of lighting even in the future, from what I
hear tonight-- we are going to have structures soaring up into
the air, and I really don't see again how anybody can evaluate
it without something to go on other than a pencil° All they
show is a pencil sketch provided to Mr. Brady by someone. Also,
the matter of trees. I am pretty sure if you look, according to
this survey the width is 150 feet, and you are taking up almost
the entire length there-- 120-foot court is going in there. I
think you are going to find out, from what I can see, that there
are going to be many, many --Many trees are going to have to be
destroyed. There is just no possible way you are going to build
that tennis court with those trees there.
Also, the matter of construction was touched on
tonight --how it is going to do~ Are you going to excavate it
all on the high end, or are you going to excavate part of it and
fill part of it on the low end? I think all these questions --
without a drawing, I as an Engineer cannot give you an
intelligent decision on this thing. I couldn't give you an
intelligent decision on how the drainage pattern is going to be
after the construction. ~ couldn't give you an intelligent
decision on how it is going to looko I couldn't give you an
intelligent decision on just how many trees will in fact be
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 21
destroyed; how many others with overhanging li~lbs are going to
have to be either pruned severely back or also taken down. I
myself couldn't make those decisions on the information
presented here, so on behalf of Mr. Brady, I think in all due
course, I don't believe --I think it is just common sense to
believe that construction of the tennis court is not of such a
momentous urgency that time could not be taken to commission a
bona fide topographic survey of existing conditions and also a
drawing showing what it is going to look like after the fact.
BOARD CLERK: Excuse me. We have to just change the
tape.
MR. GUILDI: Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
MR. BRADY: I would like to introduce Mr. Robert E.
Kennelly of Southampton. He is a house mover by profession. He
has moved houses out of the gaping jaws of the ocean, over
dunes, and under and around, and he has set up foundations, and
he knows all about grading, and he has had a lot of experience
doing that for over forty years. Here is his card which I'll
give to you.
THE CHAIRMAN: I know his credentials, sir.
MR. BRADY: You know his credentials. Good to have
good credentials.
MR. KENNELLY: Gentlemen o.f the Board and Lady: My
name is Bob Kennelly. I am a general contractor and house
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 22
mover. I have been friendly with the Bradys for a good many
years. I am familiar with their property, by both land and
water. I am familiar with the piece of property next door. I
agree with Mro Guildi that a topo map is necessary. I also
judge by eye --and I didn't use the instrument. I had one out
there today, but I didn't feel as though it was necessary to
take all those shots. To my educated eye, I would say there is
probably at least six to eight feet elevation from the
right-of-way on the south to the south end of the house up
there. There is also from east-to-west a swale in there that
measures at least four feet probably. Now I didn't stake it out
where the proposed tennis court was supposed to be; but I know
one thing: When you open up a piece of land as large as a
tennis court encompasses, there isn't anything that is going to
be saved. If you are going to backfill, you are going to take
the sand and the marl or whatever you have up there on the land
and bring it back towards the right-of-way, any trees that are
in the way there --the only way you are going to save them --and
that is going to kill them-- is to put a retainer around these
trees. Any ones that are left, on the extreme outside of the
tennis court, which would be the west side, and the east side
--my estimation that piece of property would be denuded. There
are virgin timber on that land, been there for many, many years,
as Mrs. Brady has said, some 0f them sevent~ probably 100 feet
high, some of them, hardwood trees; and we need our trees here.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 23
For anybody to come in --and most areas have stringent laws
about cutting trees today, and I am sure Southold has a lot at
stake here being probably the oldest township --next to
Southampton, that is--
(Interrupted by laughter).
MR. KENNELLY (continuing): You have the heritage
here, I realize that. I appreciate what the people do in
Southold to maintain the area they have today. We do the same
thing in Southampton. I have done a little part over here, you
guys know, with the historic society over a period of years.
They don't just go and desecrate. Some people say, "Why did
they take that brick icehouse and move it two miles, when they
could have taken it down?" Well, you people think about those
things. You want to maintain some of your heritage. It is
here, and I am happy to say I have had a little to do with it.
Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. Yes, Mrs. Brady?
MRS. BRADY: I would like to point something out that
was mentioned before, that the property to the west, not to the
east, it happens to be to the west, that our front yard
consisted of three acres of land, as opposed .to 200 feet on the
Psyllos property, and our front yard in front of the barn, our
front yard is still 150 feet deep. It is almost as deep as
theirs is and didn't encompass percentagewise very much of the
area, that is our front yard.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 24
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mrs. Brady, is there
anything else you would like to say?
MR. BRADY: I just was going to say that we placed
this barn on open air where we didn't have to destroy any
trees. We did have to raise the grade at the south end where we
brought in fill and then humus and soil, and then of course we
landscaped all around it so that it sets into the setting
without disturbing anything. In fact, it is a thing of beauty.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, thank you very much. Mr.
Bruer?
MR. BRUER: Mr. Chairman, you can all appreciate Mr.
Kennelly coming over here° It was an act of friendship for Mr.
Brady w I am sure he has the concerns that he expressed. With
respect to the properties here, I believe the Board has been out
there; and hopefully you saw that the tennis court area has been
staked, was staked Saturday morning when I think the Board was
coming out. And I believe it fits in with the property. Where
Mr. Guildi came up with his figures, I really don't know. The
map as shown, and it is part of your file, indicates that the
tennis court can be placed 75 feet back and 60 feet wide and be
15 feet between the property line of Mr. Brady. It is 150 feet
by 75, 60 feet wide for the tennis court and there is another 15
feet. I don't know where he gets his figures of 120 or 75.
They just don't make sense looking at the map. The only thing I
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 25
can think of, is he saw a map that wasn't to scale and they
measured it off.
THE CHAIRMAN: First of all, let me -- just so I am
correct because I have Mr. Corazzini here and, you know-- The
normal tennis court, inside of the court, okay, is 39 by 78, all
right. Now we have the outside zone areas which I refer to as
zones, you can refer to them whatever you want, okay. So the
actual width of the tennis court is going to be 39 up to 60,
that is the outside boundaries of the, okay. The 78, okay, is
the length of it or the depth of it depending on where you are
standing, okay. How do we get to 120 from 78?
MR. CORAZZINI: That is just your standard size of
your boundaries, your non-playing area.
THE CHAIRM3LN: Non-playing areas.
MR. COHAZZINI: We don't have to work with 60 feet or
120 feet. We can work with 55, 115. I mean, I don't think that
is going to help here, but you could work with smaller
boundaries if you had to. But they are well within their 75
feet of staying away from the right-of-way like they have to
be. I measured it with a tape, and I put the stakes in myself,
and I know there is adequate room. I don't know how that was
measured the way he was standing on the driveway. I can't
understand that at all because, you know, I started from the
property marker just as he did, measured up 75 feet and then
started again and went up to.120~ Whether there is a mistake in
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 26
the survey, that could be true. You'd have to go out and
physically measure it to be sure. The only thing I would like
to say is that it was stated that the court is 8-foot in
difference in elevation; and I believe I stated it was probably
4 or 5 feet that I'd have to excavate, which means excavate~ I'd
take 4 feet off the higher end and put at the low end, so I
agree it is probably about 8 feet in elevation change from where
you are going to start the court to where the court is going to
finish.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
MR. BRUER: I'd just like to address the issue Mr.
Brady raised about the covenants. I mean just from his
statement alone he has indicated that he purchased this property
well before any covenants were put on this property or even
subdivided. All kinds of "ifs" could be thrown out here, you
know-- If it was subdivided differently, we wouldn't have a
problem. We would probably have a tennis court in the backyard
here without any question at all other than the fence. I don't
see how Mr. Brady's property is hurt. He has got, as I said, a
6-fo0t fence running the whole length of his property right up
to his front yard, which is probably a violation of the Town
Code anyway, in terms of front-yard fence. He did ask for and
did obtain a variance with respect to the structure that he
actually put there. Mr. Ford (phonetic), the prior owner here~
again had no problems with that. Beauty is in the eye of the
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 27
beholder. It is an adequate looking barn, but I don't think it
is a work of beauty. I think the tennis court properly laid
out, with the landscaping that is going to be put in there, will
not be an eyesore. As a matter of fact, for the record, the
developer has indicated that.' And other than --I assume that
there is nobody else here in opposition-- just Mr. Brady, one
neighbor, that is opposed to this. The other neighbor has
indicated he consented and nobody else from the neighborhood
from what I can gather is objecting to it.
MRS. BRADY: I am another person.
MR. BRUER: Mr. and Mrs. Brady, excuse me.
MRS. BRADY: Thank you.
THE CHAIRMA/N: Mr. Bruer, I just want to say one
thing. As you know, and having been before this Board for many
years, and myself being on the Board for many years, we of
course always like to see that there is some sort of amiable
solution to every particular situation, all right. The only
question I have at this point, apart from the topographical
survey, which may or may not show us exactly what we want-- Is
there any particular reason why the Psylloses decided to go 75
feet from the north-south right-of-way?
MRo BRUER: I believe it fits in there. I believe
Mrs. Psyllos would rather have it be 60 feet from the front yard.
MR. PSYLLOS: I would prefer it to be not too close to
his fence. We would like to go in more, so if that is within
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 28
your ability to do so, we would prefer that. We didn't come out
here from the city to start trouble. I've got a bunch of active
kids, and I've got to keep them occupied. We are not interested
in disrupting _Mr. Brady or Mrs. Brady ,in their afternoon sleep
or whatever it is. We want to keep everything status quo.
THE CHAIRMAN: I understand.
MR. PSYLLOS: We intend to move out here in a year and
a half. I have got a two-year requirement to sell my house in
Flushing. I am going to locate myself out here permanently.
MRS. BRADY: Would you mind telling me how old your
kids are?
THE CHAIRMAN: .Whoa, wait a minute, Mrs. Brady. Just
a second. It really doesn't have anything to do with the case
here. I am at a real conflict here and it really gets to the
point where we have to discuss the semantics of the case, and we
have done that at the last hearing. They are requesting a
topographical survey indicating the approximate placement of
this particular court, right, and we are in the position not to
force you to get that; but it certainly would enhance the
situation if you would consider doing that.
MR. PSYLLOS: I request that Mr. Brady come and visit
my property and see where the stakeout is, and I will walk him
through the property and say which trees will be saved and which
not be saved° The only thing he can say to me is several years
ago I was offered 3~2 million dollars for my property, and now I
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 29
am not getting that kind of money, and I think he was a little
disgruntled by it. And I tried to tell him that a tennis court
would definitely not devalue your property. I bought the piece
of property with the intention of building a tennis court. I
was advised by the Department.of Buildings before I went to
contract that I could build it. My contractor said the same
thing up to the last minute. If I cannot build a tennis court
and keep my family occupied, I may have to sell that property.
I want to get along well with them. I don't think it will hurt
them. The neighbors to the right have a tennis court. He has
placed a fence on my side. He has a barn that I look out the
kitchen, that doesn't exactly look very appealing, but he is my
neighbor and I want to get along well with him. I am not
interested in fighting with him. Live and let live, just like
the Fords gave him approval to put that barn outside their
window. Let's reciprocate, that's all I am saying.
MRS. BRADY: May I correct --
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bruer is still up. We will be with
you in one second, Mrs. Brady. Yes, Mr. Bruer.
MR. BRUER: I am finished.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mrs. Brady.
MRS. BRADY: It just so happens that my barn was built
before the Ford house went up, so there was no problem there
whatsoever.
MR. BRADY: There was a variance is '86 gotten on it.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 30
THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know when the Ford house was
built.
MRS. BRADY: And I must say that originally the Ford
house was to face the driveway; and after the house was built,
and the two-car garage ended up on the second story of the house
because of the error made in calculating the elevation, what we
look at is a poured concrete foundation in our backyard with
hoses and in the past four years mops hanging out there, and so
forth, and I certainly would invite anyone to come and compare
what we look at and what Mr. Psyllos looks at when it comes to a
building.
MR. BRUER: I submit, Mr. Goehringer, that the Bradys
don't even see the Psylloses house from their house.
THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, who would you like to ask? Mr~
Psyllos?
MEMBER WILTON: Whoever cares to answer. The 60-foot
by 120-foot dimensions here, is this the total of the cleared
area?
MR. PSYLLOS: Yes, no more'than that.
MEMBER WILTON: Nothing more would be cleared?
MR. PSYLLOS: Nothing more than that.
MR. CORAZZINI: I have to correct on that a little
bit. Again, we said we wouldn't disturb as ~any trees and we
are not going to go in there as they state with a bulldozer and
knock everything down. We are going to clear'an area just big
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 31
enough to put that court in. We want to leave the buffer
between the two pieces of property. We don't want to clear the
whole lot as they state.
MEMBER WILTON: The location that was selected would
be set back --Does that minimize the number of trees that have
to be removed?
MR. CORAZZINI: Yes.
MEMBER WILTON: That is why that area was selected?
MR. CORAZZINI: Well, when you move further towards
Psyllos' house and even further to the road, there are bigger
trees. I think maybe because the lot has been there for so long
that the smaller trees didn't have a chance to grow and the
bigger ones grew around the edges because they can get the light
but inside is a lot of bramble in the middle of the property.
There is really not that much big stuff in the middle where the
court is going to go.
MEMBER WILTON: So that is why you selected that
location?
MR. CORAZZINI: Right.
THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any questions? Serge?
Jim? Mr. Brady?
MR. BRADY: I presume that you gentlemen did look at
this site and check things out; and I think that before you
could make an intelligent and fair decision, you would really
have to see a pre-topo and you know pre-build before and after
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 32
topographical maps to see what you are really going to end up
with, too, if it is in your judgment if you want to have this°
But I don't think you should make a decision with all this
verbatim in. If he can afford to build a tennis court, he can
afford to build it so that everyone knows what is happening. I
think that is the only fair thing to do.
THE CHAIRF~AN: Thank you. Any further questions?
Anyone?
MRS. BRADY: Oh, yes~ I have one question. May I?
There was some mention of lighting at night. I was reading the
zoning of Southold Town, and tennis courts are not permitted to
have lighting at night, ~s that correct?
THE CHAIRMAN: We have granted lighting on some courts.
MRS. BRADY: You do grant lighting on some courts?
THE CHAIRMAN: We have.
MRS. BRADY: Is that a variance, or does it go
automatically with it?
THE CHAIRMAN: No, a variance.
MRS. BRADY: Another variance.
MR. BRUER: Mr. Psyllos says he does not intend to
have lights, so I was. in error when I spoke of those. If it is
essential for the Board to have a topo map, we would go to the
expense of providing it; but I think to do so, to create that
map, the way the local surveyors work around here, w~ are
talking six, eight weeks and I don't think it is necessary. I
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 33
think from observing the property that it is really not needed.
If the Board asks for it, we will give it to you; but we don't
particularly want to have to do this.
THE CHAIRMAN: The only thing I would like to see, and
there is no way in my questioning the contractor on this, but it
would certainly give us an idea of the amount of trees that had
to be removed and if there is more of a favorable location in
reference to better isolation from the Bradys, 10~foot or
15-foot difference between the 75 and the 60 I am referring to
now, from the north-south right-of-way, and it certainly would
enhance the situation. I am not trying in any way to prolong
this thing. We are going into the winter. No question about
it. I have no idea how busy these surveyors are; but I would
say it would certainly enhance the situation. There is no doubt
in my mind that we are dealing with two gentlemen here; Mr. and
Mrs. Psyllos to agree to that I think is a very, very nice
gesture to be honest with you at this point.
MR. BRUER: We will get it.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brady?
MR. BRADY: We are really not clear, Mr. Chairman,
with all the chitchat back and forth, which way this tennis
court is going to run -- north-and-south or east-and-west?
THE CN~IRMAN: I am talking about the actual setback,
Mr. Brady, from the north-south right-of-way which basically
bisects the two acre-and-a-half lots, okay? The one, of course,
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 34
which is adjacent to you. But if we can move 10 feet more or we
can move the court 10 feet more to the east, it is going to give
you that much more isolation on your property. When I say
"isolation," I am referring to view.
MR. BRADY: Three-foot width you are referring to
now. Length north-and-south is 120 plus all the area around
this has to be recontoured to control and drain and keep water
out of the tennis court, and so forth.
THE CHAIRMAN: Let's see how the topo comes up; we
will go back.
MR. BRADY: I think you should have it before you
make a decision, to be fair.
THE CHAIRMAN: Right, okay. Any other questions from
anyone? So what we will do is, we will make a motion recessing
the hearing to the next regularly scheduled meeting, if you are
able to get the topo by that time. If not, send us a letter and
we will have it in January, that's all. We need the letter
--Was it verbally from Mro Sledjeski or did he sign some sort
of--
MR. BRUER: I believe my secretary dropped a copy of
it to you.
BOARD CLERK: I have the covenants, but--
MR. BRUER: That is my original.
BOARD CLERK: Then do you want to mail me one?
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 35
MR. BRUER: Yes, because I probably need this one to
record it.
BOARD CLERK: Then mail me a copy then, or drop it off.
THE CHAIRMAN: Can Jim make a copy for us? He is so
good on the machine.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I made the motion recessing
the hearing to the next regularly scheduled meeting. All those
in favor?
(Seconded and carried; see Clerk's Minutes.)
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you all for coming in. We will
see you next month. Do we have a specific date?
BOARD CLERK: It will be December 8th.
THE CHAIRMAN: It will be December 8th. Thank you
very much. Nice seeing you again, sir.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 36
9:30 p.m. APPLICATION NO. 4105 PETROL STATIONS LTD.
(Additional time is requested by applicant's attorney. Hearing
to be carried over to December 8, 1993, hearings calendar.)
(The initial hearing of 10/18/93 was postponed pending the
outcome of Building Inspector's determinations under revised
subdivision plan as agreed by the attorneys.) As a formality,
application may need to be amended to conform.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 36
APPLICATION NO. 4200 - JOHN E. ANDRESEN AND OTHERS.
Request to amend Special Exception under Article III, Section
100-31B(10) to include new large-animal wing (animal hospital)
and other revisions as shown on the site plan map amended
September 30, 1993. The original Special Exception plan
provided for a one-story, 3,584 sq. ft. building for veterinary
office and uses related to the veterinary clinic. The new plan
shows a total floor area of 4,598 sq. ft. at one-story height.
Location of Property: 1625 Main Road and Franklinville Road
West, Laurel, NY; District 1000, Section 127, Block 2, Lot
5.1. The area of this parcel is nonconforming at 59,984 sq. ft.
in this R-80 Residential Zone District.
8:30 p.m. (The Chairman opened the hearing and read the Legal
Notice and application for the record.)
THE CHAIRMAN: I have a copy of several maps, one
involved in the Planning Board, and the most recent one that we
are dealing with is the amended plan of August third, is that
correct? Well, it is different from the plan that we originally
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 37
had, probably not the dimension though; and I have a copy of the
actual floor plan of the new wing that is in question here; and
a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and
surrounding properties. Mr. Danowski, you are on.
Appearance: Peter Danowski, Esq.,
for the Applicants
MR. DANOWSKI: Thank you. Good evening, and Mrs.
Andresen is not a potted plant either, and we have a lot of
supporters here tonight. I don't know that it is necessary to
have the people come up in support of the application. I don't
know if anyone will come up in opposition; but they will be held
in abeyance. I originally came before you a month or two back;
and since that time I have not done anything further on the
application until the day of the Planning Board meeting when a
resolution of approval was passed. In between my clients
themselves, with their engineering consultant, have met on
several occasions with the Planning staff and as a result of
input from the Planning Board and Planning staff, revised the
plan.
It is revised, as you have indicated in the public
notice, with regard to the sizing situation, the location of
parking. It is probably a natural cultivation of a process of
discussions with Planning staff. As probably similar to every
other Town, when you are first told you have to come to a Zoning
Board or a Planning Board, you start out with the Zoning Board
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 38
for the obvious reason that if the use is denied, there is no
sense spending any further money on detailed engineering and
architectural plans. So, as with this case, and in most cases,
we came before you and asked permission for a setback variance
and a use variance, and that was granted. We then went to the
Planning staff and Planning Board, and that culminated in a
resolution of approval from the Planning Board. The day of the
Planning Board evening meeting I received some communication; as
a result of that I formed a letter to this Boards and I have to
commend the representative here, who helped expedite the
processing of getting it on for a public meeting as quickly as
possible.
They rerevealed the plan because it was my information
that this Board would like to see and review and discuss the
amended plan; and we certainly have no objection to that. We
are just trying to hustle it up so that we can get our bills of
permit, bank approval, close on the property, and build the
building-- again, before the freezing temperatures set ino It
should be pointed out that when we first started out, even
though we might have been able to come before this Board very
simply with a survey without a building plot on it, that we
thought best at that time to indicate to you what we thought the
best location for the building wculd bet and indicate a __
footprint of.the building. The footprint that you saw was a
result of our belief that the most expeditious way to construct
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8J93 39
~ -~
the building and perhaps the most economical way was to do a
modular type of building that would lend itself to --I started
to say in lawyer's words-- rectangular shapes, and that is what
was depicted on our plan. We have since found out that, after
some input from the Planning Board and other consultants, that
it turned out it may be even more reasonably priced to proceed
with a stick-built construction; and it turns out no one could
deliver the fast delivery time for the modular construction in
any case; so we have really changed the appearance of the
building to make what we think is a more attractive design; and
we intend at this point to not do modular construction.
Therefore, you see a change in the shape of the building; and in
discussing different things that came on before the Planning
staff, the amended footprint was added to the plan, and things
like the location of parking were changed around. That is in
the natural progression of things before the Planning Board.
However, it should also be pointed out, the same
request that was made initially is really back before this Board
again; and that is you still need only the 30-foot setback
distance and we still have the same mutes (phonetic), so I don't
know, other than the fact that we are in agreement that we have
no problem with this Board re-reviewing the application, it
really is not a different application than that was before you
before with the exception of the size of the building and the
layout as designed, as approved by the Planning Board.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 40
I am willing to answer any questions, if there is any
misunderstandings or misstatements in there that may have been--
THE CHAIRMAN: No, we certainly haven't changed our
philosophy, and at this particular time you very rarely see me
speak for the entire Board, but nobody has indicated to me that
there has been any change. I think just in general, you should
be aware that this type of situation occurs quite typically with
our wineries in this Town, which are by nature a special permit
also, okay. They at times are before us with a similar type of
situation. Of course, already one building is built; then they
are building another one. In this particular case, the
large-animal wing ended up to be a larger or different
configuration with more stalls in it and so on and so forth,
than what preceded before. All right. To bring everything into
perspective, it only makes sense to dot the I's, cross the T's~
and so forth; and that was the main reason I take it upon myself
to have you bring this application in and complete it in its
total form; and that was the reason why we did it in this case°
MR. DANOWSKI: Again, we are here to answer questions.
THE CHAIRMAN: I will ask the Board at this time if
they have any questions of either the applicants, who are both
her~, and their attorney concerning this plan. Bob and
members? Other than that it is hot in here. My only question
is the same question I had before, and that is, the actual
keeping of any large animals outside.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 41
MR. DANOWSKI: Same answer. Other than the idea that
you are treating large animals on occasion. Obviously it is an
emergency situation, and not treat them on the farm itself. We
don't plan on boarding horses on the property. We don't intend
having a long-term stay of large animals. It wouldn't make any
sense for us to do it. Sure, you operate on an animal, and he
stands out for a day out before someone picks him up, for the
recovery process, you may see an animal there for an isolated
short period of time. But the word "paddocks" or the long-term
stay of animals is not going to happen. So my response in the
first part is the same response I have today, which is, No, we
are not going to be boarding animals there at the hospital.
Yes, there will be emergency treatment of large animals. They
will be on-site and on occasion that animal may be seen standing
outside. But, clearly the understanding should be --and even
the statement on the plans was almost a surprise to our clients
--Someone drew four lines and said four paddocks, not paddocks,
stalls inside the building. I am not sure we are going to
construct these so-called stalls inside the building and it will
number four. That may happen, but we don't even plan on doing
that so the word "paddock," the word "stalls,V the words keeping
horses on-site-- I thiak the general intent back and forth
between this Board and myself and my clients is, we don't intend
to have ±ong-term housing of larg~ animals on-site.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 42
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will see what develops,
if anything~ Probably hopefully, nothing.
MR. DANOWSKI: Thank you°
THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anybody else who would like to
speak in favor of this application?
MR. ANSHUTZ: Their land abuts mine. I am the
next-door neighbor. And I have absolutely nc fear of what they
are going to do. There is only one thing I would ask him to do.
THE CHAIRMAN: What is that?
MR. ANSHUTZ: Hustle and pass it because I told my cat
she can walk to the doctor.
(Laughter.)
THE CHAIRMAN: You do look like the same gentleman who
was here at the last hearing° Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anybody who would like to
speak against this application? Seeing no hands, I will make a
motion approving the application as applied for, with the same
conditions as existed under the first decision.
(Seconded and carried; see Clerk's Minutes.)
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 43
APPLICATION NO. 4201 - NORTH FORK COUNTRY CLUB.
Variance under Article XXIII, Section 100-231 for permission to
build berm along the westerly side of Moore's Lane (a/k/a Linden
Avenue), Cutcvhogue, and to build tee along the easterly side of
Moore's Lane, Cutchogue, both at a height above four-feet when
located along or near the'front property line. Location of
Property: 25320 Main Road and Moore's Lane, Cutchogue, N~;
County Tax Map District 1000, Section 109, Block 3, Lot 9, and
Block 4, Lot 7.1.
8:45 p.m. (The Chairman opened the hearing and read the Legal
Notice and application for the record.)
THE CHAIRMAN: When accepting this application, we did
have some penned in or penciled in areas. We have since
received a plan from Briarcliff Landscape dated 10/24/93, and a
copy of Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding
properties in the area. Is there anybody who would like to be
heard? Mr. Dickerson, is there anything else you would like to
add to this at all?
Appearance: Mr. Rod Dickerson,
for the applicant.
MR. DICKERSON: The proposed reason for this, so that
you understand, is for the safety.
THE CHAIRMAN: I have to be honest with you -- okay.
Not being a golfer and not having played ~olf --I did play golf
some twenty years ago, okay-- But not being perfectly aware~, you
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 44
know, and I was there Saturday and I have spoken to your son,
who happens to be a personal friend of mine and a fireman of
course in the same Fire Department that I am in. I visualized
the area. I walked over the area; there were people playing
golf at the time. I did begin to understand the whole problem
that exists there. It was then further reinforced by one of the
~entlemen on the Boards our engineer to my right and to your
left, Mr. Bob Villa, tonight, on how this is supposed to work;
and I am with a perfect understanding. I just want to ask,
before you sit down: Does anybody have any questions of Mr.
Dickerson? You are the greenskeeper; is that what you are?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN: No? Okay, I guess not. So we will see
what develops throughout the hearing, and we thank you. Is
there anybody else who would like to speak in favor of this
application? Anybody who would like to speak just in general?
UNKNOWN VOICE: How about against?
THE CHAIRMAN: Fine. You want to speak which way, sir?
MR. DUALL: Just in general.
THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want in general first, Mrs.
Ross? Does it make any difference?
MRS. ROSS: Go ahead.
MR. DUALL: My name is John Duall. I live just north
of this area off Moore's Lane. I am a golfer. I haven't had
much time to look at this. I have played a lot of 9olf. This
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 45
berm on the 7th hole coming from west to east. That is supposed
to protect somebody. I don't see the logic here because you are
building a berm --Now you can't see them. If they are walking
along that road, and this is going to be 7 feet high, and there
is a lot of crown on this road, which is going to make it even
higher --say, a 5-foot woman my wife's height, 5'2 or 5'3 is
walking along -- Somebody hits a golf shot with overspin on it,
a vicious overspin hook. You can't even see that person. It
goes over the berm and hits them on the head and kills them.
What did we accomplish?
THE CHAIRMAN: That is why you're here, sir.
MR. DUALL: Yeah, well, I haven't had much time to
look at it, but I don't see the logic here. There are several
other things, and I am not prepared to go into it much deeper
than that at this point, but I question it.
THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have a good copy of the plan?
MR. DUALL: Would you like to see it? This is fairly
decent, fairly decent. This is the--
THE CHAIRMAN: That is the reduced copy, okay.
MR. DUALL: The reason I bring this up is that you say
you haven't played golf. Well, I have.
THE CHAIRMAN: I have played golf, but it was quite
some time ago.
MR. DUALL: You can hit some really wild shots.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 46
THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, I was pretty lousy about twenty
years ago.
MR. DUALL: But the fact that you can't see these
people walking along to me is ludicrous. I would at least like
to have a chance to see who I am going to hit.
THE CHAIRMAN: Right.
MR. DUALL: That's all I have to say at this point
because I am really not prepared to go any further.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Ross, I apologize.
BETTE ROSS: Mr. Chairman and Members of the Zoning
Board. My name is Bette Ross. I reside at 1850 Country Club
Drive, Cutchogue. My husband and I jointly own a lot of 152
feet adjacent to the third fairway of the North Fork Country
Club. We received a letter advising us of these hearings, along
with copies of the drawings, which I submit are not very good.
These were submitted to the Town, illustrating the proposed
changes in the third tee on the east side of Moore's Lane. It
is my understanding that the area of the tee will be enlarged in
size about doubling the surface area and the tee will be
extemded in a westerly direction to within 25 feet, 24 feet of
Moore's Lane. According to my interpretation of the drawing,
the height of the tee will be approximately doubled, raising it
to a maximum level of 7 feet 6 inches above the existing grade.
This change will certainly alter the trajectory of the golf -
balls hit from the third tee. Every day from April.to November
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 47
golfers slice eight to ten golfballs into my backyardo Once in
a while a golfball comes to rest in front of the house.
Myconcern about the proposed change stems from my knowledge of
physics. If the mass is constant, an object which falls from
twice the height hits the ground with four times as much
momentum. This means that someone working or playing in my back
yard, my husband, myself or my grandchildren, would be at a
greater risk of being seriously injured by the impact of a ball
hit from a tee 7 feet 6 inches than by a ball hit from a tee
half the height. Additionally, golf balls hitting my house or
windows which happens, would be more apt to do damage because of
the increased force. I am wondering if the North Fork Country
Club is taking these factors into consideration in making this
proposal to double the height of the third tee; and if they are
inoreasing their liability insurance to cover the increased risk
of serious injury. I object to raising the height of the third
tee on the basis of this increased danger.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mrs. Ross, just for the
record, do you live in the corner lot? How far in do you live?
MR. ROSS: Third lot.
MRS. ROSS: Third lot in.
THE CHAIRMAN: So when there is a real slice, you
really get it.
MRS. ROSS: Yes. We have about eight to ten balls in
the backyard every day.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 48
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you.
MRS. ROSS: So our property is here and the third
fairway is here. The tee is over here.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. So looking at this map
here, what did I do with my pen? There it is. You are on this
lot right here (indicating)?
MRS. ROSS: Yes. ~
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay; is there anybody else who would
like to speak against this? Let's see. Mr. Dickerson, would
you like to bring some representative in from the country club
prior to us making a decision to explain this to the Board? I
know that you probably didn't have any idea that there was going
to be any opposition on this?
MR. DICKERSON: No; my boss, the greens chairmanr was
called to Houston, and he will be back Thursday.
THE CHAIRMAN: Then why don't we reschedule this for
December, and then he can come and speak to these people and
explain to them. Maybe an elevation factor change or maybe no
change at all in the tee.
MR. DUALL: Could I ask you something, or is this
possible?
THE CHAIRMAN: You can ask us, and he can answer it. __
MR. DUALL: I am just curious as to how far this berm
goes in relation to the drop, right off at thm edge of the road
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 49
so that there is definite protection afforded somebody walking
along in that area? Or does it gradually go along?
MR. DICKERSON: On the road side?
MR. DUALL: On the west side.
MR. DICKERSON: But on the road-side you are talking
about? One to two.
MR. DUALL: Do you understand what I am saying about
falloff?
MR. DICKERSON: That is what I am saying: It is a
one-to-two pitch. Every two-foot in, it is one foot up.
MR. DUALL: What is the width of the tee? I don't see
any dimensions on it.
MR. DICKERSON: The width of the berm is
what I am interested in.
MR. DUALL: Well, going to be on the top.
If it is 20 feet wide, somebody is walking and the
thing is only 20 feet wide, you certainly are going
to have visibility; and if it is going to be 50 feet
wide or 100 feet wide, it makes a difference.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. and Mrs. Ross are
talking about the third, and you are talking about
the seventh.
MR. DUALL: I am asking the basic
question, how wide these are going to be?
MR. DICKERSON: From the top of the berm?
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 50
MR. DUALL: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: The top of the berm probably --We are
not going to make them any wider than we have to. We are going
to just try to let it round over.
MR. DUALL: You are talking about a typical tee of
maybe 20-foot width, so you can alternate where you are hitting
from, right?
MR. DICKERSON: Oh, you are talking about the tee?
MR. DUALL: The tee, yeso
MR. DICKERSON: I am sorry. It should be on the
drawing, the third tee.
MR. DUALL: I am. assuming that the tee on the third
is going to be that whole length, so you can alternate where you
are hitting from, right?
MR. DICKERSON: Right.
MR. DUALL: What's the width of it? There is no
width, dimension, there is no length of it. You have got a
distance from the berm to the edge of the road. That is the
only dimension you have got on there.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay, well, the width of that tee is
25 feet, and the proposed --and I don't know whether they are
really going to take that all piece or leave it rough in the
front. It wnuld be roughly about 75 foot longo
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 51
MR. DUALL: So you are talking about 25-foot flat
area? That is the only thing that people are going to be in
front of. You play golf and you walk up.to--
MR. DICKERSON: Excuse me. You are talking about the
third tee.
MR. DUALL: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: I am talking about, I am more involved
right now with the seventh. Mr. and Mrs. Ross are neighbors,
and I understand their point of view. I am really more
interested in the seventh tee.
MR. DUALL: Okay.
MR. DICKERSON: The berm. I am more interested in the
berm that approaches the road. So we have two issues here.
MR. DUALL: Okay, what is the width of the berm?
MEMBER VILLA: That is what I want to know.
MR. DICKERSON: The width of the berm, we are going to
try to keep it, it is not going to be like a dump-truck load to
dump. In one place it may be as wide as 40 feet wide; and the
next place it may only.be about thirty. Twenty-five maybe.
MR. DUALL: But the protection afforded people, how
much protection are these people going to ha~e, 100 feet as they
walk along?
MR. DICKERSON: 150 feet.
MR. DUALL: Okay, that is what I am looking for. That
is a lot of area for somebody to be not visible.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 52
MEMBER VILLA: So that that green area you have got
for the berm is 150 ~eet along Moore's Lane?
MRo DICKERSON: Yes.
MEMBER VILLA: Okay.
THE CHAIRMAN: And 25 feet wide approximately°
MR. DICKERSON: Well, it varies; the architect says
that you don't want to just dump it there, you want it wider in
other spots to make it look natural.
THE CHAIRMAN: Right, okay° Thank you.
MR. DICKERSON: Can I ask a question: When I bring my
boss, there are some people that were in favor of this. Should
I bring the letters from them?
THE CHAIRMAN: Or bring them.
MR. DICKERSON: Bring them?
MRS. ROSS: Would you like a copy of my statement?
THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly. Thank you very much.
Hearing no further questions, I will make a motion recessing
the hearing to the next regularly scheduled hearing.
(Seconded and carried; see Clerk's minutes.)
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, people, for your
courtesy.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 53
APPLICATION NO. 4191 - BECKY JOHNSTON.
Hearing reconvened (continuation from 10/18/93). This pertains
to the applicant's request for a variance under New York Town
Lawt Section 280-A, for acceptance of minimum standards of
improvements over new easement right-of-way areas, as modified
since the prior Appeal Hearing/Determination rendered 9/11/86
under Appl. No. 3478. Right-of-way off N/S Oregon Rd.,
Cutchogue.
9:00 p.m. (The Chairman opened the hearing and read the legal
notice and application for the record.)
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, Miss Johnston, how are you
tonight?
MS. JOHNSTON: Fine. The area was surveyed, again, by
Rod Van Tuyl. I believe you are aware of that, and you have a
copy of the certified survey. Mr0 Corazzini is here tonight so
that you can discuss the type of road and what needs to be done.
THE CHAIRMAN: Good.
~M$. JOHNSTON: I am hopeful that we can get adecision
tonight.
THE CHAIRMAN: You will have a decision.
MS. JOHNSTON: Great, because obviously the weather --
THE CHAIRMAN: The only question I have is of the
Bokina family: Have you seen the survey? Do you have any
problems with it, Ted?
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 54
TED BOKINA: Yes, I have some, a little problem with
it.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, why don't you bring that up
first, so we know where the problem is.
TED BOKINA: Good evening.
THE CHAIRMAN: How are you?
TED BOKINA: Have you been up there?
THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
TED BOKINA: There is at least, according to our
figures, there is at least six to twelve feet that have to be
cleared up --
THE CHAIRMAN: Excavatedo
TED BOKINA: To where the right-of-way belongs, am I
correct?
THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
TED BOKINA: So that is one of the problems.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
TED BOKINA: Another slight problem --which could be a
serious problem-- electrical lines.
THE CHAIRMAN: Right. I read that. Where are they?
TED BOKINA: Where are they? That is what I want to
know.
T~E CHAIRMAN: We can find that out. Somebody can go ~_
in there with a~metal detector and find it out. Do we have any
idea?
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 55
MS. JOHNSTON: The electrical lines are not along that
right-of-way.
THE CHAIRMAN: They are not. They are in the woods?
MS. JOHNSTON: They are in the woods.
THE CHAIRMAN: In the woods, okay. Do you want to
check that with a metal detector and make sure?
TED BOKINA: I would like to have those checked, yes,
because we are going to do some cleaning up of our property. I
just don't want someone to get hurt with electrical lines.
THE CHAIRMAN: Good.
MS. JOHNSTON: They absolutely are not there. I
appreciate your concern. But they are positively not there.
TED BOKINA: Where are they?
MS. JOHNSTON: They are in the woods, not on your
property.
TED BOKINA: They are not supposed to be on the
easement.
MS. JOHNSTON: Right.
~HE CHAIRMAN: Right. Could I ask a question? When
we get this whole right-of-way situation all improved and all
that, are you guys going to block that first right so that
people can't go up that way? I don't mean by blocking, you
know, put a couple --
TED BOKINA: We had at one time.
THE CHAIRMAN: Got run over or something.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 56
TED BOKINA: Run over--
THE CHAIRMAN: But we are in almost --we are pretty
well agreeable that the right-of-way is where it is supposed to
be, on the survey.
TED BOKINA: On the survey, yes.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So what we are going to propose
here is this: We are going to propose that Miss Johnston
--excuse me for brutalizing your name again-- I apologize. That
she excavate toward the cliff, remove everything that is on your
property, okay. Contour the road so it lies toward the cliff so
that the water runoff doesn't come off on your area; and when it
is all done, okay, we are going to go up and look at it. We
will give you a call if you want; you want to meet us up there,
whatever?
TED BOKINA: That would be fine.
THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any particular problems--
TED BOKINA: Uh-huh.
THE CHAIRMAN: And we will clear that whole thing up
at the end of the thing, and you know, even Mr. Corazzini once
he finishes the job, too, you know. And we will wrap the
whole thing up, and then everybody will be happy. How does
that sound?
TED BOKINA: How about these electric lines? I am
very concerned with these electric lines.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay~ You don't ~ave anybody with a
ZBA HE~ARINGS 11/8/93 57
metal detector that you know? Can you give us some note from
LILCO or something where these things are, or something of
that nature?
MS. JOHNSTON: I don't know if I can get one from
LILCO. It was put in privately, I don't remember the guy's
name. It was before I was ever up there. Anderson or
something like that.
THE CHAIRMAN: Maybe you can ask somebody up there if
they know who did it.
MEMBER VILLA: Are there visible junction boxes or
what have you?
MS. JOHNSTON: It runs through the two, there is two,
well, actually the box is at the gray house, Sharon Lee's
(phonetic) house, you know that house, that is where the box
is. And then it runs from there over to my property through
those two lots. It absolutely is not on the road, and there
was electricity up there before I ever --
TED BOKINA (interposing): No, no, there was no
electricity there. You put the electricity there.
MS. JOHNSTON: No, when I bought the property, the
electricity was there.
TED BOKINA: There was no electricity there°
THE CHAIRMAN: Were there ever any overhead lines?
TED BOKINA: No overhead lines.
THE~CHAIRMAN: No overhead lines at all. So it had
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 58
to be someplace dug--
TED BOKINA: Lord knows where they are.
THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we are going to ask Richard
Corazzini when he digs down there to be extra special careful
to watch and make sure ~-If you pick up a line, mark it so we
know where the line is in reference to the stakes, all right?
MR. CORAZZINI: I have to agree with Bokinas. I think
it should be staked out and marked where the electricity is
before I go in there and do digging. I don't want to go digging
any lines.
THE CHAIRMAN: I couldn't agree with you more, but I
don't think we know where the lines are, and that is the problem.
TED BOKINA: I hate to think of somebody being hurt°
We don't know whether they are legitimately deep enough, to
specs. I got no idea.
MR. CORAZZINI: I think what you are insinuating to
the Board, just with a metal detector you could tell where they
are. It is a good idea.
THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is the best thing. I
don't know anybody who has one. That is the problem, you know,
so whatever you want to do--
MR. CORAZZINI~ Doesn't LILCO come up and mark it
out?
THE CHAIRMAN: Not usually on private property. That
is the problem, you know.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 59
TED BOKINA: You know there is a crossover -- on the
property we own up to the Sound, there is a crossover there that
I know they were digging over there one day, and I don't know if
the lines are sitting there or where they are.
THE CHAIRMAN: How can we clear that up? Do you have
any idea, Ms. Johnston?
MS. JOHNSTON: I really don't. I think the electrical
easements are in the deed on those various properties, between
my house and the gray house, you know, Sharon Lee's house.
THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but you see the problem we have is
now we are going to be protruding into this area, okay, which
appears to be overgrown,.all right. Could have been a cut done
in there; and as Mr. Corazzini says, he doesn't want to run into
that. Okay. So whatever you can do before he starts the job to
assist him in locating this --and we will let the Bokina family
know exactly where it is. I hope you don't mind me referring to
you as a family because if I go to each, we could be here all
night.
TED BOKINA: No.
THE CHAIRMAN: Could you assist us in some way there?
MS. JOHNSTON: Sure. Does anybody.have any
suggestions?
THE CHAIRMAN: He says a metal detector.
NS. JOHNSTON: I don't know if I can get a metal
detector. I haven't the slightest--
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 60
MR. CORAZZINI: I think I can get one.
MS. JOHNSTON: Oh, that's great. Fine.
MEMBER VILLA: I was going to suggest you call LILCO
and if they can't assist you, then you could ask them who you
would turn to, and they might be able to give you some advice.
BOARD CLERK: Maybe an electrician can help out.
MK. CORAZZINI: We will definitely have to find out
where the lines are; and you are not going to go in there with a
machine and start digging out stumps and widen%ng that road that
is on her property without knowing where those lines are°
THE CHAIRMAN: Correct.
MS. JOHNSTON: The fact of the matter, too, is really
there is hardly anything in the way of brush or stumps that has
to be removed. You were up there on Saturday, and you can see
what we are talking about. We are not talking about the removal
of tremendous debris--
THE CHAIRMAN: No, but what we are concerned about and
you have to look at it this way --I am not a member of Cutchogue
Fire Department-- I don't know if this is Cutchogue or
Southold. Still Cutchogue, right? But the growing back of that
foliage onto the right-of-way, okay, is going to push any fire
vehicle, be it an emergency vehicle in the way of an ambulance,
or a fire-truck, back onto their property~ and if it is in the --
wintertime, that truck is going down. There is no question
about it% Because that is all topsoil up there, as you know°
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 61
You have tried to transverse that years upon years upon years,
okay. So it only makes sense that whatever vehicles go up
there, they stay on the right-of-way which is going to be
constructed; and there is no doubt in my mind, we are standing
here with, sitting here with the family. We know that there is
a lot of debris. When I say "debris," I am referring to stone
on their property, which is goin9 to be cleaned up and put back
on your property, or on your right-of-way, which is their
property but is a right-of-way over, okay. So that is the
reason why we are just asking you to cut back after the road is
improved and to maintain that cutback, so that we don't end up
with vehicles in their farm.
MS. JOHNSTON: Right.
THE CHAIRMAN (continuing): --conceivably. You know
you don't only do damage to their farm, which is one thing. You
do damage to emergency vehicles which can't be replaced
overnight, and the men and women that are on those emergency
vehicles. And that is the problem, okay. And that is the
purpose of 280-A or New York Town Law 280-A and so on and so
forth. Does everybody agree with that?
SEVERAL VOICES: Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we wall do that. We'll make
that a decision for you tonight, and you in turn Mr. Corazzini,
get the metal detector so you know where you are starting, and
we will go from there., and that is it.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 62
MS. JOHNSTON: Just a word. First of all, how wide
does the road have to be?
THE CHAIRMAN: Ten.
MS. JOHNSTON: It has to be 10 feet wide. Okay. So
it doesn't have to be the full right-of-way.
THE CHAIRMAN: No.
MS o JOHNSTON: And I just wanted to doublecheck in
terms of the surface. The surface is--
THE CHAIRMAN: We haven't discussed it yet. We are
going to discuss that right after this, okay. Because I haven't
--I have only made a proposal, all right, to my Clerk. She
asked me what my opinion was, and I am not speaking for these
other four astute gentlemen on this Board~ particularly Mr.
Dinizio, who has a tendency to take two-wheel-drive vehicles
into four-wheel-drive areas. I just wanted to ask Mr. Corazzini
a question before we close this hearing. Did you do any of that
right-of-way up there for Ms. Johnston? Any of that stones they
put down at all?
MR. CORAZZINI: Did I do that? Yes°
THE CHAIRMAN: You did, okay. How thick is that stone?
MR. CORAZZINI: Well, the roadway, you know the
roadway you rode on before there, that is the same product, is
on that road roadway is what is in front of her property.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. The only difference is that the
north/south right-of-way has been, you know there has been
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 63
hundreds and hundreds of yards of crushed shells and everything
else put on that thing, so that is a great base, okay. Where~ we
have a stance in between where we make that turn which is still
virgin, and then we go over to the area which you and your
family have worked on, okay.
MR. CORAZZINI: Right.
THE CHAIRMAN: So you are going to extricate or take
up all that area that is on the Bokina property off the
right-of-way and you are going to cut the brush back, and then
you are going to put that back on, and then we have to now
improve that section, after we make the loop, from there to that
point where you started, right?
MR. CORAZZINI: That's right. I hadn't thought about
that, but you are right. I am just trying to cross all the t's
and dot all the i's; and if you think that the culmination is
--or the beginning of the hearing this last time, as I said to
this nice lady, I have seen her before-- We have seen her since
1986. It is no offense, I am saying it on the record --We
really don't want to see you again.
MS. JOHNSTON: Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN (continuing): --concerning this
right-of-way.
MS. JOHNSTON: I am not offended.
(Laughter in audience.)
THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, John.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 64
JOHN (Bokina .): Is there somebody's (inaudible word)
from somebody's property line, prints or pool or whatever?
THE CHAIRMAN: You are referring to the area on the
edge of the right-of-way?
JOHN (Bokina): Right.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That brings up an interesting
point, because I don't know how to --
JOHN (Bokina): The fence thing is right on the
margin.
THE CHAIRMAN: Right. I don't know how to keep the
stone on the right-of-way, as we know this stuff moves
constantly, okay. I don't know --and I am not trying to cause
people more expense-- I am not trying to do all the things that
we normally have to do here; but some sort of curb or some sort
of natural barrier~ some sort of this, I have no idea.
Personally, between you, I and the lamp post, I know what I
would do. I would want to rototize (phonetic) out there, but I
know that is a great expense, all right, because that would
immediately preserve that straight line right down the road, and
there would be no overlapping of stone~ all right. At the same
time any emergency vehicles coming up there would know that that
is as far as they could go with driving steel in back of them
all the way down, you know, that is one road. Yes, sir?
MR. : The field, where the farmer goes, he uses
this, too--
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 65
THE CHAIRMAN: TO turn arounuQ yes. Can't put
railroad ties in there, no. What can we use?
MR. : Once it is cleared to the boundary
line, there really shouldn't be too much of a problem.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.'
MR. : But it has to be totally cleared.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is why I am asking the question,
because John brought up a good point.
MR. TED BOKINA: I am talking about that corner
monument.
THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, the corner monument, okay.
MR. : --like a swimming pool.
MR. TED BOKINA: Is there a town law or ordinance that
you have to be so many feet away from somebody's property line
in order to have a pool or whatever? It is right on the lineo
THE CHAIRMAN: Didn't she have a variance?
MS. JOHNSTON: I have a variance.
THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't know that was what you were
asking, I am sorry.
ASSORTED BOKINAS: We never got no notice or nothing
on that.
THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know. We will have to look at
that. I can't answer that question tonight~
MR. TED BOKINA: Because the cement thing is directly,
the footing is right, on top of the monument. When Van Tuyl came
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 66
down there, he couldn't find it and dug underneath there, and it
was right on top of it.
THE CHAIRMAN: So that is basically it, gentlemen, as
I know it, and ladies.
MS. JOHNSTON: Could you just restate where we are? I
just want to be very clear now. We can --Mr. Corazzini will
take care of the metal-detector~
THE CHAIRMAN: Right°
MSo JOHNSTON: And then can go ahead°
THE CHAIRMAN: Right.
MS. JOHNSTON: And clear what has to be cleared for a
ten-foot road°
THE CHAIRMAN: Right.
MS. JOHNSTON: And then we can cover it in, the
sloping away from the farm field?
THE CHAIRMAN: To the bluff.
MS. JOHNSTON: And then covered with this asphalt we
are talking about, is that?
THE CHAIRMAN: It is not asphalt, no. It is --We
haven't made the decision on what the excavation is to be.
BOARD CLERK: You are going to have to wait until
they do that. We will put it in writing.
THE CHAIRMAN: You are a little premature here, by r.
about four minutes.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 67
BOARD CLERK: I can't start until eight o'clock
tomorrow morning.
MR. TED BOKINA: Ms. Johnston is talking about ten
feet. Are we going to clear this to the property line or are we
going to run into problems?
THE CHAIRMAN: No. We are going to clear this 13
feet; we are going to clear it ten for the road, and three feet
for the overcut. All right. So as you know, the emergency
vehicle is about eight and a half feet wide. The wheels of the
vehicle are going to be right on the road, okay. There is not
going to be anything brushing against it. That is my proposal
to the Board. Okay, and. we will see how it goes. All right.
It feels better in here. Thanks a lot. We should have done
that two hearings ago.
MR. TED BOKINA: Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN: You're welcome. Goodnight.
THE CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, my reason for asking Mr.
Corazzini what he has put in there is this: I am proposing that
all virgin area be excavated to between eight and ten inches in
depth, approximately eight inches, 6 to 8 inches of stoneblend
be placed in so as to provide a drainage factor, 2 to 3 inches
of loam, and the rest stoneblend to be placed on top, okay. And
that the entire right-of-way be actually niched (phonetic)
toward the bluff. This is not a professional job here by me --I
am not an engineer-- you know, like you are.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 68
MEMBER VILLA: Why are you throwing loam on top of
stoneblend? And then on top of it-- THE CHAIRMAN: I
don't have to --only because the people that I have spoken to
say that the loam actually locks in--
MEMBER VILLA: Stoneblend?
THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah --between stoneblend and bank-run,
you know.. I am open for discussion. You are the engineer.
BOARD CLERK: Let's close the hearing first.
MEMBER VILLA: What do you normally put down as a
sub-base like this stoneblend? If you put 6 inches of
stoneblend, you are not going to put anything on top of that
unless you put macadam, right?
MR. CORAZZINI: That's right. For a roadway like
this, I think it would be sufficient just to clear off the heavy
topsoil and get down to something that is workable like some
loam, something that is there that is not so heavy, and then put
down 4 inches of stone material on top of that. The stoneb!end
that is there now is really --let's clarify that-- It is a
mixture of stone and asphalt-blend, which is on that
north-and-south road, the first road up there. And we found it
really is not as dusty as the stoneblend and why we mix asphalt
in with ito It tends to stay in place.
THE CHAIRMAN: It interlocks a little bit?
MR. CORAZZINI: Yes.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 69
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, so what do you want to go in
reference to an excavation? What do you want to excavate the
virgin portion of the right-of-way?
MEMBER VILLA: He just wants to get down to something
that he says is stable.
THE CHAIRMAN: We have to write that as a decision, so
tell me what you want to do.
MEMBER VILLA: It is hard to say. If you have three
feet of topsoil, you want to get rid of three feet.
THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think there is 3 feet of
topsoil.
MEMBER VILLA: I don't either.
THE CHAIRMAN: Just throwing that as an example.
MR. TED BOKINA: What are you going to do with that
topsoil after you get it?
THE CHAIRMAN: Going to have to get rid of it.
MEMBER VILLA: Put it on your farm?
MR. CORAZZINI: We'd have to excavate it for a move
suitable sub-base and then put back to the same level, so we are
not putting the road in a hole. So it is on the same elevation
as the rest of the area, if that was necessary.
THE CHAIRMAN: When I was up there, and the existing
version -- I am referring to the point after we make the turn,
come out of the wood area ~hat hasn't been workod on, I did not
see a great deal of topsoil in that area, okay.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 70
MEMBER VILLA: So basically all he has to do is get
down a few inches until he can get his stoneblend in.
THE CHAIRMAN: So what do you want, 4 inches?
MEMBER VILLA: Yeah, for that length of road, it is a
minor roadway.
BOARD CLERK: So you are excavating 4 inches?
THE CHAIRMAN: Now let's go into the area that he has
worked on, all right, where the road has to be widened, or
deepened as we stand in front of it toward the bluff. What do
you want to excavate there?
MEMBER VILLA: He is going to have to get rid of what
he has got in there and probably re-use it on a thinner basis,
then blend that with--
MRo CORAZZINI: Back up one step. Where the stone is
now, where I really have it halfway graded --
THE CHAIRMAN: Let's draw it so that there is no
confusion at all.
MEMBER VILLA: Gerry and the blackboard!
(Drawing commences.)
BOARD CLERK: I want to be able to write it down, too.
THE CHAIRMAN: This is the virgin area here that we
just took care of, right? This is the area that--
MEMBER VILLA: Infringes on the farm.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 71
THE CHAIRMAN: This is the area that we are moving in,
okay, approximately fifty paved 3-foot overcut, total of 13
feet. Now, what is your question?
MR. CORAZZINI: My question is: All I really did
before I put that stoneblend down was grade the existing roadway
that was there, the farm-road that Bokinas have been using for
years.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, so that is a good point.
MR. CORAZZINI: I really didn't excavate that properly
as you are talking about here.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is a good point. So it would make
sense for you to do this first, take all of that and put it over
here, okay. Then excavate this--
MR. CORAZZINI: Right.
THE CHAIRMAN: And resurface that, right?
MR. CORAZZINI: Right.
THE CHAIRMAN: This of course is not drawn to scale,
this distance here is probably almost as great as this distance
to there, right?
MR. CORAZZINI: Right.
THE CHAIRMAN: So what do we sugges~ that you deal
with this? How far do you want to go down with that?
MEMBER VILLA: Until he gets down to a suitabnle
base. I don't think it is going to be much.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 72
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You don't think it is going to
be much?
MEMBER VILLA: Shouldn't be.
THE CHAIRMAN: You should know. How far you think we
have to go down there, Jack?
MR. BOKINA: As far as what kind of base there is?
THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. JACK BOKINA?: Right now? It is a sandy base; it
is pretty hard.
THE CHAIRMAN: Pretty hard there?
MR. JACK BOKINA?: The only place that got softened up
quite a bit is where Becky started driving on the property right
in here. We were in here and met going up here, like this
(indicating). That little wave has been in there twenty-some
years.
THE CHAIRMAN: So if we talked three inches, four
inches, in reference to depth to get down to, we are all right?
And then we would go from there on this stuff. Because it has
to be regraded, too, on the basis-- okay. Good. All right. I
think that takes care of that. Any questions?
MR. CORAZZiNI: How about the area where you just drew
the line: What do these guys want done to bring that back to
the way it was?
THE CHAIRMAN: It is not part of this application.
Whatever you want to do, whichever you can agree to with them.
ZBA HEARINGS 11/8/93 73
SEVERAL BOKINA VOICES: We are going to clean our
piece of property.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is why I asked them if they are
going to put some stanchions in here so people don't go up that
way --because you know what is going to happen in emergency
vehicles in the wintertime-- they are going right down to their
axles in there, if you run into s problem.
MR. BOKINA: That is what happened with the trucks
when Miss Jones was there.
THE CHAIRMAN: When they were building the house,
right?
MR. BOKINA: When they pull in there, they pull back
out into the field. They got stuck and they buried. That is
why we started to raise hell.
THE CHAIRMAN: So I think we have this down. We will
go from there. Thanks very much.
(End of 11/8/93 ZBA Public Hearings. jdr)
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