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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-11/21/1991 HEARING TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING $OUTI--IOLD TO~,I BOkRD OF APPEALS REGULAR MEETING OF THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 1991 Board Members Present: Chairman Gerard P. Goehringer .Members: Doyen, Grigonis, Dinizio Absent: Villa Linda Kowalski, Z.B.A. Secretary and approximately 150 persons in the audience. Appl. No. 4064 Applicant(s): Mr. & Mrs. William R. Ahmuty III Location of Property: 3405 Bayshore Road, Greenport, NY County Tax Map No.: 1000-53-6-10 The Chairman opened the hearing at 7:25 p.m. and read the notice of hearing and application for the record° CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have a copy of a survey indicating the parcel of somewhat irregular size but the irregularity of it is approximately 50 X 152. The irregularity is on the bulkhead side and a copy of she Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Is there someone who would like to represent the first applicant? Mr. Bertani, how are you? MR BERTANI: Fine, thank you. I'm just here if there's any questions the Board would like to ask about. CHAIRM3~N GOEHRINGER: Is the addition one story or two story? MR BERTANI: It's one story, but there will be a second story, it's a cape cod house with the ability of a dormer on the main part of the house. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And what you're in effect doing is really squaring off the house and just putting a ten foot addition on it. MR BERTANI: Basically. CHAIRFLAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. And I see that there's a sixty five foot mark mentioned on my survey. MR BERTANI: Yes. It won't be any closer than sixty five and also the elevation of property you've got there is eleven feet and th~ ~resh water house is thirteen so it's a little Page 2 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - Mr. & Mrs. William R. Ahmuty III Southold Z.B.A. MR BERTANI~ cont'd: above the in the area. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Winter is coming, this is a winter project? MR BERTANI: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you would like a decision as quickly as possible? I thank you very much, sir for coming in. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody else who would like to speak in behalf of this application? Anybody like to speak against the application? Questions from Board Members? I have no particular problem with this application. I'll make a motion that it be granted. All in Favor - AYE. Appl. No. 4063 Applicant(s): Peter & Marie Pizzare!li Location of Property: Private Right-of-Way extending from the south side of Indian Neck Road, Peconic, NY County Tax Map No.: 1000-98-5-14.3 The Chairman opened the hearing at 7:28 p.m. and read the notice of hearing and application for the record. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have a copy of a survey, from Roderick Van Tuyl P.C. dated April 20, 1972 indicating the cottage as it stands adjacent to and somewhat placed back from the main house but almost parallel to, on the left side of the property. And I have a copy of the Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Is there somebody who would like to be heard in behalf of his application? How are you tonight Mr. Pizzarelli? MR PIZZARELLI: Only to reiterate what I put in my application. That my wife's 86 year old mother has been living in the cottage for the past ~en years. She suffers from severe arthritis in her leg and has difficulty walking. There's a previous letter on file from Dr. Arm stating that think in the file. Her condition has worsened and she has difficulty walking to the main house for meals. Especially in very inclement weather such as rain and snow. There is also a problem with the meals when my wife and i mus~ be away and we have someone come to stay with her in the cottage. Other than that are there any questions you would like to ask? Page 3 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - Peter & Marie Pizzarelli Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You were kind enough for the record to show Board Members in place in the beginning in two instances, we appreciate that and what we are talking about in this application is very simply the ins'tallation of a stove. MR PIZZARELLI: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have the bare essentials of a kitchen in the premises at this time and this gentlemen is looking at this also. So that he does not have to walk from the main house to the cottage during these times. Is that correct? MR PIZZARELLI: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And those aren't even the most severe months. MR PIZZARELLI: Yes, right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any further questions. Does the Board have any further questions? Okay we'll see if anything develops and we may call you up. Thank you sir. Is there anybody else who like to speak in favor of this application? Is there anybody who would like to speak against the application? Good evening Ms. Totora. MS TOTORA: My name is Lydia Totora and I represent Patricia Wood, who is the property owner, adjoining property owner on the west. We are opposed to this application, the applicant in our opinion is not seeking a variance but a back door method to further subdivide this already subdivided parcel. And to create a single and separate dwelling unit and as the show, to create a single and separate lot. In 1982, when Mr. Pizzarelli applied for a variance for sleeping quarters only at the time Mr. Burr stated for the record and this is a matter of the records of the Z.B.A. meeting at this time. It's conceivable that a subdivision could be applied for the relief. They don't want' to do that. They jus% want to be able to have use of the building for their parents, for there own personal use; promise that it would never be used for rental purposes etc. The meals are taken by the people have been and are now taken ~o the main house. Well, now a decade later in Mr. Pizzarelli's application he states if the cottage was a separate unit with cooking facilities my wife could rent it and receive an income and would not have to suffer at home. This has also been stated in the record as well as the care of the mother-in-law. After a variance is obtained to transform this into a cottage for sleeping Page 4 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - Peter & Marie Pizzarelli Southold Z.B.A. MS TOTORA, cont~d: quarters only. In 1987~ the Pizzarelli's submitted a map and a proposal to the Planning Board to set off lot number 3. Despite that fact that lot number 3 has been covenanted against any further subdivision and I would refer you to the approval given by Mr. Wickham when he was Planning Board Chairman in 1973 and the prior property owners recorded covenant agreeing to covenant that and for all property owners after that. At the time the Town Planner advised Mr. Burr that they would not recommend approval for further subdivision of this property° The desire to deceit additional income is not unique. Certainly not in these times~ it's shared by manyo In this instance the hardship is self-imposed. The granting of this variance would create two dwelling units; two separate dwelling units on this two acre zoned parcel and would neglect the spirit of the zoning ordinance. The precedent has already been established by this Board that two kitchens equals two dwelling units. And I would refer to the Z.B.A. decision this year in the matter of Splendido and Auricchio in that decision the Zoning Board says under zoning interpretations on January 8~ 1988 under interpretations made by the Board of Appeals on the term "one dwelling unit" the interpretation provides as follows: Any building or portion thereof~ forming a single habitable unit and containing not more than one kitchen or cooking facility shall be deemed a dwelling unit the Southold Town Code. Two dwelling units are not permitted in R-80 residential districts. As far as a further variance that was given to the variance in 1982~ After reviewing the files I find that although the variance given in 1982 did not include a kitchen with a sink and a refrigerator they were already constructed long before and in place when Mr. Pizzarel!i went to the Building Department and his application was rejected because he built it without any permits° He later came to the Zoning Board of Appeals for permission for what was already constructed. At the time~ there was a kitchen a sink, a sink out lay in the whole parameters of this~ The ZoB.A. approved the variance in the July of 1982, yet there was some confusion about the variance being approved because the principal building inspector wrote to the ZoB.A. in August, noting that there was plumbing facilities that had already been installed in ito At the time you clarified that in the letter in August stating that it was clearly an accessory use for sleeping purposes only. There was no mention of any provisions for a refrigerator~ a sink or any other kitchen facilities. And yet on a survey date~ August~ there was an imaginary line you delineated a imaginary line ~0~000 square feet and you clearly said it was an imaginary line. Yet two weeks later after you said this a survey, a legal survey appears and the line was no longer imaginary~ but the line appears on the survey as a delineated ~0,000 square feet lot Page 5 -November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - Peter & Marie Pizzarelli Southold Z.B.A. MS TOTORA, cont'd: and we've got a lot of problem with this, because we don't understand why that happened and why it exists. When the Building Department approved the plans and issued a c/o for the accessory structure the Building Department very specifically x~d out the entire kitchen area. There is no c/o for that kitchen area. Now we would like to know is the sink still in place, is the refrigerator still in place and if those items are in place, Mrs. Wood would like them removed because they are without any legal permits tha~ we know of, unless you can correct us and tell us to the contrary. As far as. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want me to answer that? MS TOTORA: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In the most recent decision, which does not necessarily deal with a one family dwelling unit, but a decision for Cliffside Associates, where they wanted to install a sink and a refrigerator unit on one unit, in 66 motel units. We did allow that. That is the nanure of the application, or my interpretation that is before us tonight at this table for some time. But of course they want to puu in full kitchen facilities. I don't masque that be a full kitchen facility. It's lacking the preparation of food, that's my opinion. It may not be. MS TOTORA: Is that also the, is the definition of a kitchen? A stove, and what constitutes a kitchen? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Basically a kitchen and this is again my interpretation, this is not a full Board interpretation, a decision from the Board, it's my own interpretation. A kitchen would be any form of food preparation in the way of, it could be a microwave, a refrigerator, a sink. It could be a stove, a refrigerator, a sink. , refrigerator, sink. It could be a countertop, refrigerator, sink. The lacking of the food preparation in the scheme, the ~bility to, the bare essentials. MS TOTORA: So you're saying that it is some form of heat preparation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, heating or defrosting preparation. You can come up to the point in'the issue of Cliffside Associates, the installation of a Mr. Coffee coffee pot in conjunction with the sink and refrigerator facility. This particular case the lack of because what we had there was very simply, although there was a heating plate associated with the, and I'm not pushing Mr. Coffee, Sunbeam Page 6 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - Peter & Marie Pizzarelli Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: or Mr. Coffee preparation unit at one particular. MS TOTORA: It is somewhat confusing because in the plans from the Building Department, the Building Department has specifically x'd it out that entire area. And that has their stamp of approval on it. So there has never been any marriage between what is on record as having approval and what you are saying. That discrepancy exists as far as that record is concerned. We still maintain that this is a self- imposed hardship and that as far as the condition of the mother, we're very sympathetic to this, but we feel that given that fact that the main house is an extremely large structure there are many other remedies available in this case. At the time Mro Burr stated that house had accommodations for six people. Certainly from someone o~ that age such serious illness could be moved to the main house. Switch with one of the children. At any ra~e there are other remedies available other than what amounts to a subdivision of this land and we are extremely opposed to it because it would se% a dangerous precedent in this area. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOE~RINGER: Is there anybody else who like to speak against this application. Mr. Pizzaretli could i just ask you one quick question° When did you establish a square footage MR PIZZARELLI: Approximately between six and seven hundred. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Square feet. Mr. Dinizio would like to ask you a question. MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I ask you a question. I jus~ want to see if ! got it straight. You are objecting to the installation of a sink, I mean a stove in this building, accessory building. Or is it just because it's going to be rented on down the line as the applicant did state. MS TOTORA: We are objecting to ~he installation of a single and separate dwelling° It's very difficult to say that we you see it in the code, as in the case, yes~ a separate kitchen does constitute a separate dwelling. You already have a 5,000 square foot main building and a structure in addition to two square, a huge garage that has been added on to. This was a accessory cottage that was revamped and is now a cottage with everything but a kitchen. So this parcel was coveted against further subdivision in 1973 and if we're to uphold the spirit of the zoning in this town we can not simply further carve it up. Mr. Pizzarelll has made no bones Page 7 November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - Peter & Marie Pizzarelli Southold Z.B.A. MS TOTORA, cont~d: about it. He wants to subdivide it. He did not go to the Planning Board in 1987 for a variance he went for a set-off. To set-off a lot that has been prohibited from being further subdivided.~ So I think the handwriting is on the wall and it's, we're asking you to put a stop to and to uphold the spirit of the zoning ordinance. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so you're objecting to it. MS TOTORA: All the way. MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Pizzarelli? MR PIZZARELLI: Gerry, I think some of the information that is being brought forth here by this young lady is incorrect. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. I'm going to have to ask you to use the mike. MR PIZZARELLI: Number one, the main house is not made up of 5,000 square feet. I mean some of these other things that and as far as the imaginary line that was the Boards decision to put that in there. I had nothing to do with that. I'm not asking to subdivide this property. And I never went formally to the Planning Board to ask for a subdivision. I never did. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On your piece. MR PIZZARELLI: Of my piece right. And I had nothing to do with the original subdivision, that was done by Andrew and the comment here in regard to the renting. That is something that is somewhere down the line, I don't know where. I mean, that's only, that's only if I were to pass away.~ I mean, I'm a senior citizen and a retired person living on a fixed income. When I pass away my income ends and it's a question of my wife has to either sell her property to live or possibly in the future, 10, 15, 20 years down the line, who knows, jusu having the opportunity. I'm not saying that it's going to happen right now. Right now that's being used by my mother-in-law. But I think a lot of these other, and as far as the kitchen being etched out, I have no knowledge whatsoever of that. You have a copy of the plans of the cottage from the last and so forth and there is no x'zng out and the Building Department of that and I have a c/o that says that building is approved by the Building Department as is. The way it is right now and the Board came down and inspected that building and it's the same Page $ - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - Peter & Marie Pizzarelli Southold MR PIZZARELLI, cont'd: building that they saw ten years ago and everything thatts in there is the same. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you again. Yes Lydia? MS TOTORA: I will read for the record and then submit to you for the record on October 18, 1987~ Southold Town Planning Board, Attention Valerie Scopaz, regarding proposed set-off for Pizzarelli, Peconic, New York. Dear Ms. Scopaz, On behalf of Peter and Marie Pizzarelli we respectfully request that you take a few minutes to look over the enclosed map and our sketched in proposal for a set-off on part of their lot~ lot number three. That's number one. Number twom Here is a copy of the plans that were approved, they have the s~amp of the approval of the Southold Town Building D~partment~ dated 9/24/82~ in the plans the entire kitchen area is x~d ou%o I submit both of these for the record. Thank you° CHAIR~LAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is there thing else that any one would like to report. Seeing no hands I make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision, until later. All in Favor AYE. Appl. Noo 4039 Applicant(s): Cliffside Associates Location of Property: 61475 County Rd 48, Greenpor~, NY County Tax Map No.: 1000-45-1-1 & 2 The Chairman pos%poned the hearing at 7:50 p.m. at the request of the Attorneys until further notice. Appl. No. 4066SE Applicant!s): William C. Goodale Location of Property: 7655 Main Road, Mattituck, NY County Tax Map No.: 1000-122-6-30.1 The Chairman opened the hearing at 7:52 p.m. and read the notice of hearing and application for the record. CHAIPA~3~N GOEHRINGER: I have a copy o~ a site plan produced by Garret Strang. The most recent date is 10/25/91~ indicating the specific changes that will be required in this application. And ! have a copy of Suffolk County Tax Map indicating this and surrounding properties in the area. Mr. McLaughlin I understand. MR MCLAUGHLIN: Members of the Board, my name is Kevin McLaughlin and I'm here on behalf of Mr. Goodale representing him in this special exception application° As the Chairman Page 9 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - William C. Goodale Southold ZoB.A. MR MCLAUGHLIN, cont'd: read to you the subject property is located along the northerly side of Route 25 in Mattituck, contains approximately 36,000 square feet and it's located in the B-1 general business zone. Presently there are two buildings existing on the premises, one is a single family dwelling in the rear and the building closer to the highway contains an existing business office with a single famit~ apartment above that. This Board on August 16, 1986 issued a variance concerning this property to reduce the living area in the pre-existing non-conforming dwelling unit in the front building to less than 850 square feet. The purpose was to alter the first floor to add office area to expand the present professional business use as stated in that variance. what we are here asking for tonight is the permission through the special exception to change to authorized business use on the first floor from the professional business use contemplated by that variance to the sale, vehicle sales and rental. And we would need obviously accompanying area outside for the display of those vehicles. The character of the neighborhood to the east of the subject parcel is the Suffolk Times building, right next store. Diagonally across the street is Brisotti & Silkworth Insurance building, to the west Mattituck Commons, Hobbyhorse hobby shop, Starlight Autobody, Kreiger Well Drilling, American Furniture Stripping, Joseph Crenshaw Concrete Contractors, Tuyl Automotive~ Something called the Acrylic Duck which advertises itself as a canvas upholstery and awning business and Classic Car Wash. So I think it becomes readil~ apparent that the area is indeed a commercial business area and in fact I would think we would be hard pressed to find a site in the Town of Southold that would be on which this type of a use these vehicle sales and rental would be more appropriate. There are some residential uses in the area, but they're very scattered and I think that basically again what we're trying to have this Board do is just authorize a change of the type of business that can be authorized to be conducted at the site from what the prior variance allowed ~o what would be allowed under a special exception i~ it were granted. There are two major areas of the code involved basically Article 26 which talks about the general standards for special exceptions and there are specific standards contained in Article 10 Section 100-101B12 for the specific special exception that we're talking about. It's our position that the site plan and the use of the property will comply in all respee~s with all of the standards that are enunciated in those two sections and as a result we would respectfully request that the Board authorize this special exception use. Also here tonight are the Architect Garret Strang who would like to make a presentation and also the applicant who would like to make a presentation and also to hand up a petition Page 10 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - William C. Goodale Southold Z.B.A. MR MCLAUGHLIN, cont'd: that they've obtained from the neighbors concerning the use of this property. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask you two questions? MR MCLAUGHLIN: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The prior variance~ a c/o was never secured for that business office, is that correct? MR MCLAUGHLIN: I believe that is correct. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So, two houses are continuously rented at this tmme~ are still rented the family dwellings° MR MCLAUGHLIN: The entire back house and the upstairs of the front house havre been continuously rented I believe. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. And is there any utilization in the lower half of that front house rlght now. MR MCLAUGHLIN: I don't believe so. My position would obviously be from a legal stand point that whether or not any use was made of the business office if you wiil~ a variance was granted and non-use, just because of non-use you certainly don't loose the variance that you obtain. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no~ I really wasn't, I wasn't elaborating on that I just wanted to know if they were continuously rented. Thank you. MR MCLAUGHL!N: Thank you. GARRETT STRANGt RA: Good evening. The application that's before you as Mr. McLaughlin indicated did include the site plan or the conceptual site plan as developed to date. Not to mislead the Board this site plan is not in any way shape or form mn its final state. It's a conceptual at this point and time to address the !ssues and indicate that we can meet the majority of the site plan requirements that there will undoubtedly be some modifications to the site plan once we have the opportunity to take it the nexn step to the Planning Board. The Board I know did direct a letter to my office shortly after the application was made with respect to the size and the like of the uses and indicated, made some reference with respect uo some plans being developed. There haven't been any plans per say of the buildings developed in as much as the space that already exists is the space that would be used. There's no plans uo expand on any o~ the Page 11 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - William C. Goodale Southold Z.B.A. MR STRANG, cont'd: buildings that exist and there's really no change from the amount of square footage of office space that was originally noted in the variance that's prior, variance that's granted. And I followed .that up an writing to the Board today actually~ So, we don't have any plans for the building at this point and time since it's going to stay as as as far as the space allocation and utilization. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How large an area are you anticipating the business? MR STRANG: We're looking at the 600 square foot area which is probably all that's need if that much for the nature of this business. It's pretty much a small operation. The office would really pretty much be used strictly for writing contracts and negotiating sales. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is the physical condition of the first floor of the main house? MR STRANG: The physical condition, it's serviceable. CHAIRMAN GOEHRtNGER: It is serviceable. MR STRANG: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It looked pretty good. MR STRANG: As I think the Board is aware I'm sure they've been by the property not only recently but I'm sure they've passed in previous years and I'm sure made note of the fact that the property has been improved visually and ascetically as finances allow the applicant to do that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Kindly state your name for the record sir. MR WM GOODALE: Yes, good evening, my name is Bill Goodale, I'm the applicant. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do? MR GOODALE: I would like no just begin by saying this property was my fathers, it was passed on to me. At the time it was passed along there was a pre-existing mortgage. Over the years we have, my son and I have worked to improve the property slowly. I think we have improved it uo quite an exuenn over what it was when we began. It was over grown with trees and brush. The houses were falling apart. We do have the two ~ental units, however, basically what we have is Page 12 - November 21, 1991 ~ Public Hearing - william C. Goodale Southold Z.B.A. MR GOODALE, cont'd: a situation where we're lucky to break even each year° As the years have gone by on our one side has come the very beautiful building the Suffolk Times. It has brought progress to our east, there's beautiful landscaping. I understand the owner is going to even expand the tennis court to the back. We see some progress. On the other side we've had a mini shopping center come along and basically they're both in the twentieth century and we're still back trying to keep everything a float with a much older plant. What we would like to do, my son is a qualified auto person and t believe that he can very well carry forward a business it would be a boom to the town from that standpoint. That with a little effort on his part he can provide a quality service at an affordable price and perhaps at the same time secure enough profit, it's not the easiest thing to do. At the same time allowing us to go forward. I have a petition to present to the Board and if I might just mention it was of interest to me as we secured these petitions obviously it's sort of a popularity contest how many signatures you can get. But the comments of the people that signed for us were so supportive feeling that there is a need for a quality automotive resale establishment. To -- provide a little competition in the area. They feel that it's a business going forward. There were commenss of well you will with the advertising with the dollars that wilt be generated in improving the property which will be at some cost. It will be quite a boom for us, so that we would ask you to approve that request. We feel that we can provide a service, i~m also concerned that as we go forth the young people of the Eastern Long Island who have grown up out here very often are leaving our community to go west to make a living. My son is doing that now and I feel that this sort of an enterprise would be something in one instance for me and my family would give my son the opportunity to be viable and active in our community. There are other used car lots in the Southold Township they are not certifiable used car lots and yet we're approaching the Board in the proper manner requesting this permission in a straight forward way trying to apply and to upgrade the properties. We feel that this will be a benefit to us and to the town as a whole. I'll ~ust hand this to you° CHAIRMAN G©EHRINGER: Thank you sir, it's a pleasure meeting you. Any other persons that would like to speak in favor of this application. Is there anybody who would like ~o speak against the application? MR MELLENDER: I have a question. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely. Page 13 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - William C. Goodale Southold Z.B.A. MS MELLENDER: My name is Joe Mellender, I live in Mattituck. The question is how is this kind of business allowed to exist now when the laws prevent it existing. We take a walk and we see used cars on a lot with big yellow marks and they'ie selling used cars and they are not allowed to be there and yet they're there doing their business. CHAIRM3%N GOEHRINGER: Do you want me to answer that question? The only thing I can tell you is that this is not the code enforcement area, Joe. Secondly, once an application is initiated, I'm not speaking for either the Building Department or Code Enforcement, they usually wait until the decision is rendered before any violations are brought forth. Kevin, do you have any thing else? MR MCLAUGHLIN: No I don't have anything else, just no place to sit. MS SIDLAUSKAS: Do I have to go. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I wish you would because we're taking this down. MS SIDLAUSKAS: Okay. A question on the c/o not being secured, what exactly does that mean. They're not allowed to operate in there. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I merely asked them if they actually put a business into the building. MS SIDLAUSKAS: Oh, okay I wasn't sure what you meant by that. Okay, now what about are there any as to frontage they'll need to set back. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In reference to the placement of cars? MS SIDLAUSKAS: Right. I mean I'm not concerned about the office space because that's, but right now they've got them practically in the road and I wonder if there will be, if there is anything in the code that will enable the Town to have them setback more. CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: Why don't we do this. Since we're going to take a short break any way, just prior to McDonald's hearing. We have to open the doors and allow everybody else who can physically come in here. Let's take the site plan, put it down here, we'll reconvene the meeting you look at the site plan and you'll see it's only in beginning stages is my understanding right? Page 14 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - William Co Goodale Southold Z.B.A. MR MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. CHAIRMAN GOEHRtNGER: And you take a look at it and see if that fits your bill and then we'll come back and then close ,the hearing and then get to McDonalds. MS SIDLAUSKAS: Okayt thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. I make a motion recessing this hearing for about five minutes to allow everybody to sit down for the next hearing. Gentlemen ! offer that 5s resolution. All in Favor - AYE. The Chairman reconvened the hearing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms Sidlauskas do you have any further questions or comments concerning that now? MS SIDLAUSKAS: Well yeah, I mean I don't know a whole heck of a lot about blue prints but I think it's quite evident from there initial blueprint that the cars, the display vehicles are right on the road and I would hope that the Town would recommend that they at least have some sort of a buffer that would be attractive. I know you can't hide the display vehicles they have to be visible. But to be practically coming out into the Main Road. CHAIRFLAN GOEHRINGER: Are you referring to a green area or low shrubs or something like that. MS SIDLAUSKAS: Yeah, you know a little side walk or whatever and low shrubs or some kind of plantings or something that would make it a little more appealing'to the eye. It's a you know not a great place to have it but it's. The property has been in the family for a long time and they obviously have tried hard to keep it that way. So it looks an awful lot of asphalt, it looks scare to me but. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very much. MS SIDLAUSKAS: ! haven't really looked into ...... MR MCLAUGHLIN: If I could just respond very briefly. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely. MR MCLAUGHLIN: Obviously assuming that we obtain a special Page 15 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - William C. Goodale Southold Z.B.A. MR MCLAUGHLIN, cont'd: exception from this Board we would then move on to the next phase which would be to go before the Planning Board for site plan approval. I'm sure that the Planning Board in its discretion will take up the particular issues of setbacks and green areas and obviously we will comply with the reasonable demands of that Board. We're certainly not looking to alienate any of the neighbors. We're trying to be able to operate a decent business and we will do what's ever reasonable necessary as far as the Planning Board is concerned. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Any further comments? Seeing no hands I make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. Ail in Favor - AYE. Page 16 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.Ao Appl. No. 3970 Appiicant(s): McDonald's Corporation Location of Property: S/S of Main Road, Mattituck, NY County Tax Map No.: 1000-122-7-3.1 The Chairman reopened the hearing at 8:20 p.m. CHAIRF~N GOEHRINGER: There are a couple things I would like to say prior to that. The first thing is for the people who saw me respectfully out there in the break I'm very simply going to the library. I told him that we are not here to roast McDonalds and that is to be truthful. Okay. We are not going to take the comments that we took the last time. I was dismayed at that hearing and I have no intentions of being dismayed tonight. Okay. We want constructive valid points mentioned. We also would appreciate the people that are speaking either for or against to state you opinion concisely and to then sit down and allow someone else to speak, if you have spoken before please allow the people who have not spoken. I know it's very difficult to do in a crowd like this. But please'do the best you possibly can in allowing your neighbors and your friends to voice their opinion prior to your discussion. If you have mentioned something before us before in the way of a statement. The other issue that I want to mention is that we will be taking a break within about forty five minutes° We will put on the table just as we did prior to this one the newest site plan that Mr. DiConza had afforded us tonight and you will have time to evaluate that and that's all t~really have to say at this particular time. Mr. Mineo, ! ask you if you have anything you would like to place in the record. We welcome you here. MR MINEO: Good evening Mr. Chairman and Members of the Board. My name is Peter Mineo~ I'm an attorney with offices at 120 Mineola B!vd~ Mineola and ! appear this evening on behalf of the applicant~ McDonald's Corporation. There was, also with me this evening is Judy Pasqucci, who is a real estate representative from McDonalds. Ernest Annabel, project engineer and Stephen Fe!%man~ the architect who prepared the plans that have been submitted throughout this application. The Board of Appeals recently expressed some concern over the question of the form of the application. McDonalds has been the applicant throughout and ! understand that the application has been advertised as McDonalds and in parentheses Cofam Realty Company as owner° I have with me this evening Stanley Cohen, a representative of Cofam. So if the Board has any questions for him. I understand he has submitted an amended application or an application to this Board to bring him into the scope of the application, tt was Page 17 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR MINEO, cont'd: our understanding that the submission of disclosure affidavit with his information would have been sufficient but that's quite alright if the Board needed additional documentation well that's now been submitted. Mr. a or Cofam has entered into a long term lease with George Lewis and Martin Kosmica. I understand that Mr. Lewis is here this evening and I also understand that they likewise have submitted an application to the Board. So not only is the owner the long term lessee but McDonalds as well joined into the application. And as I understand the chain, in the even~ that the application is approved then McDonalds will exercise its lease with Lewis and Kosmica' and proceed with the construction of the restaurant. I understand that, although that I don't represent Mr. Lewis and Kosmica. That in the event that the application is approved that they will exercise an option under the lease and purchase the property from Cofam. If I'm incorrect in any regard these gentlemen are present and we can correct that. Another issue was the, it's not an issue that the Board has directly raised, but I think it should be clarified. The application, the site plan rather was amended on June 5, 1991. That is the most recent site plan, although there is a later site plan that was submitted to the Health Department which shows a somewhat different configuration of the driveway. That really is not the final version. So the June 5, 1991 plan is the plan in effect and what I would like to do at this point is ask Mr. Annabel to address the Board, briefly outline the changes that have been made for the site plan. I believe they reflect some of the concerns that the Board expressed at our last hearing which was in on April 5, 1991 and I believe it's also receivedconceptual approval from the Planning Board. That a letter has been sent to this Board indicating that there is no objectio~ to that plan. Mr.- Annabel. Name and address. MR ANNABEL: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Board, my name is Ernie Annabel, I'm project manager with McDonald's dorporation, 70 East Sunrise Highway, Valley Stream, New York. I'll be very brie~, I just want to make a couple co~nents about the site plan that's before you now. When we left you last, we were left with basically one directive that stood out in our minds and that was to figure a way to redesign the site plan to minimize a potential conflict between vehicular and pedestrian traffic and I believe that the site plan before you now does that. You'll note that the parking is now all located on the west side of the building. The drive-through operation is secluded from the parking field. In doing this we've also eliminated the parking stalls that were shown previously on the east side of the building and we've also by the nature of this layout been Page 18 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR ANNABEL, cont'd: able to gain additional stacking for the drive-through operation. That's really the only notable change. If you have any other questions I can address them. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The site plan that you have down below is exactly the same as the November 21st site plan that we have before us. Is that correct? MR ANNABEL: November 21, well yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Stamped November 21st. MR MINEO: I believe it's June 5t is the actual date. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The actual date. I don't have any other questions at this time Mr. Annabel, but as you know questions do occur during the hearing and I thank you for your presentation. MR ANNABEL: Thank you° CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to ask a question? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, I apologize. MEMBER DINIZIO: The stacking now, you said you have increased that. Where are you starting, actually where are you ending the stacking. Say you start at the window or are you starting at the where you talk into, order your food. MR ANNABEL: You know we can start wherever you like. I mean we talk about stacking starting from different places when we talk about stacking, but generally speaking from the last window, that is the window where you would pick up your food and leave. Stacking works back from there and the last car in the stack basically is even with where you see coral location or the rear of the properuy. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, where it says drive-through. MR ANNABEL: I believe, I can't see it from here, but I believe that's probably true. MEMBER DINIZIO: So you don't anticipa%e any cars blocking that with the arrow. MR ANNABEL: Wait a minute. Let me take another look at that. Page 19 November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MEMBER DINIZIO: So you don't anticipate any cars here. Just one more thing. This part of the property, are cars allowed to go through here or is there a device that will stop the cars from, in other words are they going to follow this flow or could they drive-through. MR ANNABEL: I think the way we show it~ it might be shown just as striping, striping of parking stalls, however, if that were a concern, it's not unusual for us to put a median of some sort there. We could do that. MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR MINEO: Mr. Chairman, since Walter Dunn isn't present this evening I've taken the liberty of asking him to review the revised site plan because he did not testify to it at the last hearing and to see if he had any problems with it. believe that Mr. Dunn in fact spoke with Mr. Fellman during the preparation of that amended plan and had some input. So the letter is almost self-serving because he participated, but I would like to submit to the Board a letter from Dunn Engineering Associates dated November 20, 1991 addressed to me concerning the review of the revised site plan. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR MINEO: I have one last comment, Mr. Chairman and that will conclude our presentation. I noticed that one of the attendees this evening has a sign saying that our landfill is full. And I know that's been a concern of the Board, it's been express during the course of not only the public hearings but, its also been expressed in some of the correspondence that we've had since the last public hearing and McDonalds has thought about this matter and the concern that the Town has expressed about the~ its ongoing efforts with the solid waste management plan and I don't think we have to recount all of that now.' I think it's a matter of record, the Board is certainly aware of the situation. And McDonalds has throughout the process been talking in terms of mitigation, in fact mitigation was one of the questions that the Board has raised throughout. What plans does McDonalds have to alleviate some of the impact of solid waste. Especially in this town. We've talked about the recycling of polystren. We've talked about the recycling of cardboard. In fact the Persico study that was submitted talked about recycling of the cardboard accounts for approximately 34% of the solid waste stream of a typical McDonald's restauranu. Page 20 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southol~ Z.B.A. MR MINEO, cont'd: And McDonald's is certainly committed to the recycling of cardboard and will in fact do that. But in light of the situation~ the concerns that this Board and the people that here this evening had expressed concerning the landfill° If McDonalds, McDonalds will consent represents rather~ that in the event that the application is approved~ it will not deposit any of its solid waste from its Mattituck location in the Southold landfill° It will engage a carting company to transport all the solid waste, the back door waste, as solid waste as its know~ if something goes into the dump or the compactor and transport it out of the Town and it will make that representation that as long as the landfill is in existence it will not deposit any solid waste in it. And I believe Mr° Chairman and Members of the Board that is the ultimate in mitigation when it c~mes to the question of an overburdening of the Town's landfill. And I'd be happy to discuss with council methods of how the Town could monitor that° McDonalds will obviously keep a log of this, the pick ups are scheduled, usually at a specific time of the day so Town representatives could in fact observe what takes place. McDonalds will keep a log oi the caruing company~ the destination of the solid waste~ and any other identifying numbers on the truck; the compactor itself and those records will be available to the Town at any time~ Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question is from the Town Attorney, Mr~ Mineo, MR MINEO: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Will you post a bond. MR MINEO: No, because I don't believe a bond is appropriate to insure a condition of that nature. Bonds are normally imposed when it comes to things such as public improuements. That I can see. In a situation like this, I don't see how a bond is applicable. I'm certainly always willing to discuss it with the Town Attorney, but I don't see its applicability at this point. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is Mr° Cohen present? You did say he was right? MR MINEO: Yes sir he is. Mr. Cohen. MR COHEN: Yes sir. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Cohen, how do you do? We appreciate you coming out. I have only two quick quesuions to ask you. Rephrasing what Mr. Mineo says~ this application Page 21 November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: the property that you are involved with, if we are lets say or the Town os if this Board does grant a variance, you will enter into a long term lease agreement is that correct? MR COHEN: That's correct the, that's correct. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The other question I had and you must understand that the discussion that we've had going back and forth concerning the issue of solid waste are and I'm mirroring the same thing that Mr. Mineo just said and that was that I will defend anybody's right to know exactly what an organization will generate and that's basically the question in reference to solid waste. To date there have been inaccuracies in the record, alright, and that's what our concern was, alright, these inaccuracies were due to certain factors that we certainly look at. That certain newspapers looked at in this Tow~ and so on and so forth. Baring tn mind that McDonalds is now making this issue of solid waste almost a mute point the inaccuracy that we are dealing with therefore lessens to a certain degree. So therefore it is not necessary for me to continue my line of question in that particular area and I thank you for coming. Is there anybody else who like to speak in favor of this application? Start with the, yes. Sir, I' like to ask you to state your name for the record sir and use the mike if you would because we're taking this down. MR CARLIN: Frank Carlin. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do Mr. Carlin. MR CARLIN: I've been a resident of $outhold Town for over 38 years and I didn't retire and move out here planning on having an easy time and having everything my way. I feel like I'm a Rambo tonight up here taking on an Army Division. And when I get finished probably you'll understand why. You better consider this like you're in a court room. When you're in a court room the judge will say to you, the evidence must be proven beyond a'reasonable doubt. well lets start reviewing now what we have here. We have in Mattituck town four pizza facilities, ~wo ice cream polars, several delicatessens, and in fact three 7-11's throughout the town. There's nothing wrong with that, fine, nothing wrong with that. So what's wrong with having one Mc~onalds. Now, you can travel from Riverhead to Orient Point, a distance of 31 miles, there's not one fast food facility. Sure, you stop at a restaurant somewhere along here and spend twenty dollars for a meal if you want to. About the only one right now, in fact this evening, where is there any place Page 22 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR CARLIN, cont'd: in this Town this evening outside of Johns grill down here where somebody can go in and have a cup of coffee. Now lets use some common sense here. Look at the facts. This is what we're here for. Now, let me give you the four reasons. There's more but I'll go into four because somebody else might want to speak. Reason number one, a lot of traffic. Well I~ve lived on the Main Road now for 38 years and the traffic is increasing every year. We don't have a McDonalds so that's not going to be no answer of no problems. The traffic is increasing every year any way. Nun~Der two, debris being thrown out on a highway, cups, bags, can't blame that on McDonatds, we can blame that on ourselves° We're the ones that throw it out there° Reason number three, I parked in the McDonalds in Riverhead, I could just about hear the drive-through speakers. These are small they're not bullhorns where they carry over a large area, so what's the problem. My forth one was going to be about garbage, but ~ understand this evening its been resolved. We need income in this Town. Create, I understand probably maybe 40, 50 jobs, for the young people if they so desire to work, what's wrong with that. W~at's wrong with some tax revenue to come in we need it in this Town° I drove from Orient Point to Mattituck on the North Shore one day and I counted over 40 signs, real estate signs, houses and property for sale because people are moving out there's nothing here to do. We need economy in this town. t told the Town Board eight years ago~ I stood here exactly in this spot and I told the Town Board that the Town Board was operating in the dark ages and we were the last one in this Town to get Police Department computerized, Town Hall computerized° We was the last ones in this town. This is the twentieth century~ we got to live with the times° They have McDonalds in Russia, they have a McDonalds in how about Mattituck? I'm not here to be a wise guy. I'm just here to state my opinion and what I said about being a Rambo I had second thoughts of coming up here because oh boy I don't know about this° But I had one thing in my mind. That I have something going for me very strong in this country and that's freedom of speech. ~end~ent number one and that's why I~m here~ So, ! ~ay~ this ~s my opln~on that why not. Let's move ahead. We need a McDonalds. They have, in fact this is the only 5own I believe in the whole state that doesn't have any. It's going to be interesting to see that if and when, and I say if and when McDonalds opens how many people in this town and even in this room whom I see drive in there for a cup of coffee. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Mr. Carlin. Is there anybody who would like to review this site plan prior to making a statement. ~£here are people in the back o~ the room who may Page 23 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: not be able to see it. I'd be very happy to recess for two minutes to have you look at this. Is there anybody who would like to look at it, cannot see it. Okay. Is there a question about it or do you just want to study it? MS VARANO: CANNOT HEAR. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It appears not to be. And I will discuss the environment in the town of Mattituck for twenty two years4 MS VARANO: You have one point going in and two going out. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Could I just have your name ~or the record. MS VAPJLNO: Eileen Varano from Mattituck. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. HUGH CONROY: How many cars could be in queue before they get to the ordering window? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just ask you to use the mike and state your na/ae if you would. MR CONROY: My name is Hugh Conroy, I'm from Southold. How many cars could be in a queue up to twenty five before they get to the ordering window? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you answer that question Mr. Mineo. MR ANNABEL: Approximately twelve to thirteen cars from the ordering window to the end of the drive-through stacking lane. There's no way that there's going to be any possibility of cars backing up onto Route 25. MR CONROY: Can I follow it up? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. MR CONROY: How many do you expect to do in a given minute or hour? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGEE: Maybe you could get up to the mike and we could go back and forth. Just direct the questions up here if you would. MR ANNABEL: I'm not sure I understand the question? Page 24 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR CONROY: What I~m looking to know is what your proposed turn around per customer. If you have twelve cars in the queue before it's on the Main Road, how long before the queue stacks up on the 25. MR ANNABEL: In other words in what I'm saying is that we have designed our stacking lane to accommodate a maximum of twelve vehicles from the pickup window back without any interference to any traffic on the site and certainly in the roadway. The way the drive-through operation works is that first of all we don't anticipate any more most likely than five to six cars in line at any one time, because that's what our operations have shown us and they're constantly~ they're going through so in other words you know you order your food, then you drive-up, you pick it up then you leave. So, it's not that you have twelve one minute and twenty four the next minute. MR CONROY: Sir, I think, if I may. Ernie is talking about you have a twelve car stack .... MR ANNABEL: I'm not talking about the pick-up window, I'm -- talking about the ordering, where the queue starts. MR FELLMAN: Okay, what he is explaining ...... MR CONROY: I know what he's saying. MR FELLMAN: He's saying twelve cars from here to here. You're talking about. MR CONROY: He's saying that there's twelve cars from the ordering window from up to here. MR FELLMAN: Back up to here that's twelve cars. MR CONROY: How many cars is that? MR FELLMAN: Probably like thirty cars. MR CONROY: Thirty cars? To go all the way out to Route 25, what would be the turn around? MR ANNABEL: You can't fairly even talk about it that way. That doesn't happen, it's not. MR CONROY: What I'm trying to establish lsr how many _ customers per hour are you anticipating putting through that drive-through window? Page 25 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It depends upon seasonal use I assume. MR MINEO: Mr. Chairman, we came this evening to address primarily three issues and those are the issues that have been outlined in the Board's letter. That was the question of the applicants; question of the revised site plan; and question of solid waste. We've addressed all three. I would respectfully refer those people that want to revisit all the issues that we discussed in March and April to the transcripts of those public hearings and to the many documents, including the documents subsequent to that last hearing. MS SAWASTYNOWICZ: It was a different site plan. MR MINEO: At the last public hearing we had a traffic engineer; we had a real estate appraiser; we had an economist; and an operations man as well. Those people are not present this evening and I have no objection if the Board after this evening closing the hearing and leaves the record open for say a period of two weeks or three weeks, of course that sixty day time period for the Board to makes its decision I would ask to start to run. But allow those people that have questions to review those documents and it's a very extensive record as I'm sure we will all agree. And submit there comments in writing to the Board. But, those, I don't want to start another round of questions on all these issues that have been very extensively reviewed already. Mr. Annabel, although he's is the project engineer, he's not a traffic engineer and I don't think it would be fair ~o start a round of questions. We're not trying to be evasive we've been here in two very lengthy hearings and under the circumsuances we have been manifestly unfair to start this again. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you do this for this gentlemen. If we take a three minute recess, could you meet with him up here to see if you could answer his questions. MR MINEO: Absolutely. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To the best of your ability, it's not on the record, it's off the record if you have something that you would like to place on the record after your discussion with McDonalds then you are very Welcome to do so sir. Is that alright? MR CONROY: Um. I take acceptance to that because this is a public forum and if they say that they've addressed these problems before I think this evenings greater problems that I Page 26 November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR CONROY, cont'd: haven't addressed. Forget about solid waste, how about liquid waste. I wasn't privy to it because I just didn't attend the meeting. So I take a little bit of acceptance to that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MR CONROY: But I will take the time and all do it ofl the books. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Would you also put any particular questions that you have concerning liquid waste and we can answer them tonight. Again I have no idea if these gentlemen have, ladies and gentlemen have the expertise with them to answer those. And no way am I defending McDonalds in this particular way there is some credibility to what Mr. Mineo has to say, but I'm requesting you to put it mn writing and we will submit it to MeDonalds, they will then get it back, we will be your filtering agency as I mentioned the first hearing. We will get that answer back to you. Okay. Is that alright with you? MR CONROY: Fine, no problem. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We are again going to place the site plan down for your review. Take about a three, four minute recess, that ms it. We will back here, we would love to geu ouu of here by 10:00 only because the building actually should be shut down at 10:00. We're just mentioning that at this particular point and we are not restricting anybody from speaking and we appreciate everybody here for your attendance and for your point. Yes mam. MS GARRELL: ! don't believe anything was said about the 45% of the packing that goes through the drive-through window, how will that be picked up by McDonalds. It goes into the cars and then it's distributed all over. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just have your name for the record. MS GARRELL: Jane Garrell, East Marion. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir? MR GEIER: I just wanted to home in on the main problem~ which is the garbage we undersuand will be taken care of, but _ partially by McDonald and by removing it as far as it accumulates you know on the premises to some other location. But in all the cartons, all the packages which will be taken Page 27 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR GEIER, cont'd: home to the families, they have to take care of these packages themselves and many of them are ending actually on the roadside. And we're lucky McDonald alone it will be probably after McDonald there are other fast food stores, they make the same applications you know.like Kentucky Fried Chicken, and Frito Lay, and what have you. And we have a growing accumulation of garbage along our roads. Since we have been living here for approximately three time and I've been walking the dog twice a day. I see that more and more of the garbage is ending up on the sidewalks even along What do we do about it. Here, Mr. Chairman, you said that we should come up with some constructive suggestions. My suggestion would be considering what happened with the fertilizers, Union Carbite you know was made responsible for cleaning up the damage which they caused by some chemicals which have really infested our soils and are still are infecting our water supply. So, since I-'m not making any criticism, I'm not directing my criticism to McDonald. Unfortunately as far as the garbage accumulations is concerned unfortunately it rests with us to take care of it. But this is a long process. It make take years, ten years, twenty years before everybody realizes that we are doing a lot of harm into our neighborhood to our environment just by discarding the rummage almost every where. Nobody thinks just the throwing out the garbage into the road. Somebody else, nature will take care of it. Nature doesn't. So why could the township and other townships as well take an obligation from these companies, fine food restaurant. That maybe as a joint venture, they take care of the removal of all the garbage. What you see eventually cause by them or through them. Something has to be done along theSe lines. I mean this is the only constructive suggestion which I can offer you under the circumstances. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just have your name for the record? MR GEIER: H. W. Geier. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you again for your comments. I know you commented the last time. Thank you sir. Alright. I just want to recess and then I'll come back if that's alright with you. We'll take approximately a three minute recess again and for everybody to review-and we'll be back for the last hour. I thank you very much. I need a resolution. Ladies and gentlemen you have been given, yes Mrs. Tappon? MRS TEMPNER: Mr. Goehringer, you asked for a three minute recess, it was ten minutes that you spenu with the gentlemen Page 28 - November 21~ 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MRS TEMPNER, cont'd: from McDonalds. May I know what was said, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I know I apologize. I'm going to tell you what it was. Sure° The Town Attorney was present. I was just going to do that. I have to vote on opening the hearing now. I offer that as a resolution, gentlemen. MEMBER DINIZiO: Second. All in Favor - AYE° CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The issue of technical questions in which they do not have the expertise available was the actual context that was brought forth and put on the floor and what we intend to do about it okay. In no, at any one time do I ever want to curtail anybody from getting the proper answers that they want~ okay. And that's basically the situation, the Town Attorney was present for the major portion oi that and the concurrences at this particular time that I will offer to the Board that we close the hearing after everybody has spoken tonight to oral testimony until December 16th. During the period of time between tonights hearing and December 16th any questions that you have you submit to the Board and we will then submit them to McDonalds and ask them to return their comments in writing. They may re~lecu the record as being past mentioned and so on and so forth. Alright that is what is exactly what we basically spoke about. Now the problem that I have is that the Christmas holidays are coming and a lot of people are going away and so on and so forth. I offer that my Board has the best possible result of a situation during holiday time and we will discuss that after the public has a right to speak and we'll see what develops. I have not discussed it any more than what we were discussing with the Town Attorney and we may have to take a short recess between the Board and the Town Attorney up here to discuss that that's the possibility that we're going to use. Howevers I now open the floor to comments. I'm going to take the east side of the room first and ask anybody if they would like to comment eitheY pro or con concerning this particular. Yes sir? The gentleman in the front. I'm going to ask you to, we had a sign in procedure the last ~ime and we'll ask you to sign in later if you wouldn't mind. MR PILLAI: My name is Bryan Pillai and I'm a resident in Laurel'in Southold Town. And I have a question in reference to the traffic studies that were done. And this is a simpla question, I would like to know how many cars did they figure would go by the McDonald's restaurant per day? Page 29 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think that was answered, but go ahead. MR PILLAI: Yes I know but I would ~ust 1-ike to clarify the fact because I'm not very sure of what the answer was. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you gentlemen remember that. MR MINEO: Not off hand. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not off hand. Put it in the form of~a question a~d we'll attempt to get that information for you. MR PILLAI: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It does not have to be done tonighu. You can type it, you can write it, whatever the situation is. MR PILLAI: I've also got a question about the garbage. Where are they proposed to truck it to? MR MINEO: Would you like that answer now? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's do it in the process because then we make room if you don't mind. MR MINEO: Right. The way the procedure will work is this. Once the application is approved then McDonalds will select an operator, that hasn't been done yet. That operator will negotiate with a licensed carter and take it either to a landfill or to a resource recovery system, an incinerator for instances. For instances McDonalds was going to take the cardboard to Brooklyn. So, it could be anywhere from here to Brooklyn or even beyond. But there is no site selected yet, but certainly that will be part of what McDonalds gives to this Board as part of its monitoring process that I outlined early. So there will be, that I think the crucial question is that it's not going to be brought to the Southold one. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.~ MR PILLAI: I've also got a suggestion for the roadside garbage. When I lose something if someone else finds it doesn't have my name on it, it's theirs. When I go around an my yard and try to mow the lawn out front by the road, all I find is garbage and aloE of it has their name on it. And will they send anybody around to pick up their garbage. MR MINEO: There's no plans to police the highways Mr. Chairman. Page 30 - Noven~ber 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.Ao CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR PILLAI: And I've also got a question, well not really a question a statement about crime. And you may remember when a deer broke into the Carvel restaurant in Mattituck. Well, on that same week, three masked armed robbers held up the McDonald's restaurant in Riverhead and they locked the employees in the freezer. And this tells me that where a McDonalds goes crime is going and I don't feel we need that here~ We can do with the deer breaking into the restaurants instead 9f masked guns. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On either side of the room. Yes? MS HOFER: My name is Barbara Hofer, I live in Mattituck. I've been to the last two meetings and !'ye sat still'and I haven't said anything. I feel that whenever McDonalds is asked a question you get either inaccurate answers or you get double talk. tf they don't know what they want or what is involved with the questions, i mean they're the ones that want this special exception they should be prepared with the answers, that is our right as taxpayers to have that information. If they are not prepared to do it they should have asked for a recess and we could have come instead of wasting everybody's time° At the April meeting, a question was raised as to the buses. Where the buses would park. One of the McDonald's representatives did state at that time that buses were not encouraged at the McDonalds. Approximately three weeks after that while attending a girls softball game I stopped with my daughter at the Riverhead McDonalds and her team. In front of~ right above the billboard~ there was this large sign, Buses welcome, bus drivers eat free. Well i~ that's not encouraging buses I don't know what is. Number one and number %wo on the site plan I see no provisions made for buses now i know that buses will stop there should we be unfortunate for the exception to be passed. They will stop, there's no provision for them. The other thing ! have, is when you do go to the drive-through nine times out of ten if you order something that isn't prepared you are asked to pull up and there's no place in that plan right now that you can pull up and wait. The other question~ before I say the question. Two years ago I worked in one of the larger vineyards out in Southold Township which is one of our main tourist attractions, I worked there in the tourist department ~or three years. I must have come in contact with I couldn't tell you how many thousands of people, not one asked me where the nearest fast food res~auran~ was. Their questions were where is a n~ce quaint family restaurant. We don't need a McDonalds; it's not wanted here and you've got to do everything you can in your power to s~op them. The one Page 31 -November 21, 1991 Public Hearing -.McDonald's Corporation Southold ZoB~A. MS HOFER, cont'd: question I .do have is that I believe it was Mr. Mineo has said that as long as our landfill is open they will cart out garbage. Well what happens when the landfill goes. Do then we have to incorporate their garbage into our town. Or do we have to pay the expense to cart it or whatever we're going to be doing with our garbage will they then impose theirs on Southold Townships. That wasn't answered. TOWN ATTORNEY ARNOFF: I intend to address that. What McDonald's obligations will be, how they intend to find themselves as franchisees in contract with this agreement. MS HOFER: So it will go in even when our landfill is closed, they will still be responsible for their own garbage at their expense. TOWN ATTORNEY ARNOFF: They haven't said that. I haven't heard them say that, but I don't know if thatts their understanding. MS HOFER: Is there anyway that, garbage is one of the main concerns. TOWN ATTORNEY ARNOFF: I understand that. MS HOFER: Is there anyway that could be disclosed before the exception is. TOWN ATTORNEY ARNOFF: Mr. Mineo is here perhaps he's prepared to answer it, perhaps he's not. I don't want to speak for him. MR MINEO: I think I can address that right now. During the course of the hearings the objection has been specifically that the Town's landfill is overburdened and that this would add an inordinate amount of solid waste to that landfill. Well I've always discharged with that notion, but I recognize that it's a concern cf the Towns and as McDonalds as a good corporate citizen will go far beyond what I'm sure any other business in this town will do in this regard. I don't know of any other business that is voluntarily carting its garbage out of the Town at this point. However, the Town has made a very specific point that pursuant to its solid waste management plan it's trying to reduce the solid waste stream to its landfill to forty tons per day. McDonald's going to help in that regard. To what extend that landfill remains open, perhaps you can answer bette~ than I can at this point. But needless ~o say. Page 32 - November 21~ 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. TOWN ATTORNEY ARNOFF: Judge Warner may answer it in February, but I can't answer it. 5~ MINEO: in the event that the landfill closes then the issue that has been foremost concerning solid waste is now a~ an end. The Town would have to do one of two things. And I'm again, I don't mean %o lecture to the Town this is probably something you're more familiar with then I am. But oner you either get out of the business of collecting solid waste for your citizens, which probably will not be the case. Or you'll find another method to dispose of it. Perhaps some sort of a transfer station will you work on a resource recovery facility or an incinerator. You have to come up with some plan if you don~t have a landfill and if you wan~ to stay in the business. If you stay in the business then you're going to create~ and I can almost assure you of this, you're either going to create a flow control legislation which will mandate each and every property owner within the Town to bring its solid waste to a Town facility. So that you can either create a transfer statacn and truck it out as a Town matter or incinerator. TOWN ATTORNEY Ai~NOFF: i think he~s missing the poant. Because I think the question is designed to say is McDonalds going to contribute to the flow of materials through our landfill. Being a transfer station, in other words assumang the landfill closing and we have a transfer station and we do something with our waste at that point be it to a smirch or be it something else okay~ the question at that point is what's happening to McDonalds' waste at that point. Is it your intention then to bring your garbage which had been trucked let's say, transported out of Town by some means to our landfill or to cur transfer station and let us deal with it at that point. MR MINEO: McDonalds would want the option to participate in any new solid waste managemen~ plan that the Town employs. TOWN ATTORNEY ARNOFF: Then what you're saying is, what you're offering by virtue of the. statement that you made early is a temporary stop gap, that's all it is it's a temporary s~op gap and if an fact and if you use your crystal ball and think chat our landfill will close in the near future which some people think, i don'% know that I share that view. But some people do believe that. That your offer might be for a very limited period and if in fact might not ever come to pass because by the tame you go~ it built our __ landfill could be closed. You would be ~rucking your waste to our transfer station and we would have to deal with it. So the increased flow of material would still come from Page 33 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing -McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. TOWN ATTORNEY, cont'd: McDonalds not withstanding your offer. MR MINEO: That's right there would be... TOWN ATTORNEY ARNOFF: I wan~ to understand where your position was, that's all. I think that answers Mrs. Hofer's question. MS HOFER: Yes it does thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On this side of the room. Just state your name for the record. MS NORTHAM: I have some correspondence here from .... CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your name for the record. MS NORTHAM: Yes. Johanna Northam, I'm a resident of Southold. I have a correspondence here from D'Amato, Forchelli & Liburt Law Firm dated September 26. I just want to quote from this September correspondence. Since the proposed McDonalds would not open until after the Town landfill has been permanently closed, it cannot be claimed that it would ever have an impact on the environment. I had other statements I wanted to make, but I thought we should zone in on this. Further, the correspondence states; McDonalds must be treated no differently than any other commercial solid waste generator. What they're saying is that if the landfill closes that, it's here in black and white, that they would have the option to use whatever solid waste management plan was in effect. I'd like to back up since I have the floor and talk about there was an article in the Harvard Review (October 1991) nation wide 67% of McDonald's garbage leaves the site. That is based on research before Dunn and what is stated in the October 23rd issue. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you get us a copy of that please. MS NORTHAM: Yes I have it. Despite the figures that are badly to bat the fact is that McDonalds will be the sixth largest generator of non-recycled garbage in the Town of Southold. The Long Island law firm that represents the McDonald's Corporation states that garbage disposal is irrelevant since the Department of Environmental Conservation will prevail and the Town will have to close the existing landfill. Well this is irrelevant what I'm going to say, I feel I have ~o say it because as a member of the task force I think it should go to the public record. As a member of the Page 34 - November 2if 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS NORTHAM, cont'd: task force I felt this issue should be addressed. Perhaps the lawyers to McDonalds are unaware that the solid waste task force which was created two years ago concluded after thorough research that the continuation of landfilling non-recycleable garbage was an economically sound and environmentally safe method of disposal. We have the support of the Town Board~ civic groups and individuals in our decision° Perhaps the lawyers representing McDonalds are not aware that we have a lawsuit pending relating to the landfill closure law. Perhaps they are not aware of a recent hydro-geological monitoring that concluded the landfill does not pollute the ground water and on that basis we will keep the exemption from the landfill law. Another issue which unfortunately was not addressed was an environmental impact statement to the McDonalds project. It should have been assessed. The projects generation of waste and reviewed public comments since the people are a primary source of indemnifying impact to a community, in conciusion~ we have the right and the responsibility by consensus to protect and preserve the rural character of our town. I urge the Zoning Board of Appeals to deny it from this project in the best interest of the community and support the residents of Southold. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the other side o! the room and then we'll go to the back, okay. MS FLETCHER: My name is Linda Fletcher, I am a resident of New Suffolk and I~m also a member, a Board Member of the North Fork Environmental Council. And before I start I would like to express my appreciation to all of you on the dais for all the work and all the interest and all the long hours you have put into this. It,has been very gratifying to me as a resident of this Town to see what really gees on in the Zoning Board o~ Appeals. And I also would like to thank all the people who have come out here tonight including students from Southold High School to participate because that's what this is really all about. It's about participation. No matter which side you're on, it's part of the process and it's good to be part oi the proc~ss~ So~ having said that~ I'd like to talk a little bit about one particular aspect that has interested me over the pas~, since the last hearing. And what it seemed to me uo feel about is this° There's really only one issue here and it's whether this permit, this special exception should be denied or should be granted and within that scope I think that this application, I~d like to zero ~n on one aspec~ of it and that's the drive-through window. And i would like to frame that in this reference. I found when i was looking at the Town Code three places where I felt the drive-through window could be assessed~ where you Page 35 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS FLETCHER, cont'd: could take a look at it and so I did. And it was very interesting because while t was doing this a letter came to your office last week on November 12th from the applicants attorneys D'Amato, Forchelli & Liburt they've been listed before and they said in their letter and I quote. The discretion of the Board of Zoning Appeals in determining whether a special exception shall be granted is confined to the standards enacted to guide and to limit the Board's power. Well I thought that was kind of an interesting statement they had cited two cases that they had taken that from. And so I thought to myself, well now you know just what are those governing principles if you were. Just what does guide and limit this Board. And I would like to- demonstrate within this ruling what those standards are. Which guide and limit the power in Southold Town. So remember now I'm only talking about the drive-through window. If one looks to a section of the Town Code which explains the permitted uses as a special exception you will notice that a drive-through restaurant is not mentioned. It is not a permitted use because it's not allowed. It doesn't~ven appear in the zoning code. In the la~ and that law would prohibit any use not specifically permitted. Well, that's one avenue that we could have gone down. Was looking at this drive-through aspect through the special exception through the lens of a special exception. Well, maybe we could look at the drive-through as an accessory use. Now in the definitions of our code an accessory use is defined and I quote as a use customarily incidental and subordinate to the main use on a lot whether such accessory use is conducted in a principle or accessory building. Now, at the last hearing McDonalds indicated that 45% of their business is going to come up to that drive-through window and I'd like to submit to you that no reasonable person by the wildest stretch of their imagination could determine that 45% of the total use is an accessory use as defined by our Town Code. Finally, one more avenue here, let's take a look at principle use. Perhaps the drive-in comprising 45% of the total business is really a principle use. The definition of principle use in our code is this: The main or primary purpose or purposes for which land and/or structures~ are designed, arranged, used, or intended to be used. And for which shall land and/or structures maybe occupied or maintainedunder this chapter. Now, when you look in the permitted uses, in the principle uses you know once again in the general business zone we just don't find any mention of a drive-through restaurant. Just isn't there. So, what's not mentioned how can you make a ruling on it. It's not there. It's not allowed. It's not permitted. So we arrive at the sad conclusion that.the application before us by the very terms that the applicant has set out clearly does not meet the Page 56 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS FLETCHER, cont'd: legal requirements for the $outhold Town Code° In that instance, there's only one course of action you can take. This application must be denied. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you wouldn't mind sir. Just state your name for the record. MR ANTIGIO: My name is Dominic Antigio. I live on Alvah~s Lane in Cutchogue. And there are many unanswered questions. One is that needs to be addressed is the traffic on the cross roads, Alvah~s Lane, Depot~ Cox to get from 48 south. don't think that's been adequately address. The other point that ! wanted to bring up Mr. Mineo's feeling about solid waste in the town. He treats the waste problem like most of the people in the country, in the world. If you take it out of their sight~ it's out of their mind and I think that's wrong, okay. It's just part of a bigger problem. They bring it to Riverhead~ upstate, what's the difference° It's still generating excess amounts of trash in the Town of Southold that does not need to be generated and I believe the Town Attorney should ask him to put his money where his mouth is. Why does he deny any find of a bond or Certainly that would guarantee some kind of a fool proof way of us monitoring what they're doing with their trash. If we leave it to be sel~ monitored on a self checked basis, i don~t think he would have the correc~ answers. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask you in reference to your first question wo~td you please send us a note concern!ng that ..... MR ANTIGtO: On the traffic on Alvah's Lane? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah and prior to your sitting down would you just sign in if you would so we could keep a total log for our person who~s doing the transcribing. Thank you. I didn't mean to stop you. MR ANTIGIO: That's okay. In summary I'd just like to vent for people that are taxpayers in this town and for the peoplo who are opposed to McDonalds or the people who are in favor of McDonalds. There's still too many unanswered questions to make a decision. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you~ MS SAWASTYNOWiCZ: Members of the Board, Ladies and Gentlemen, good evening. I'm Nancy Sawastynowicz~ I'm here tonight to ask yo~ to deny the application by McDonalds for Page 37 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold ZoB.A. MS SAWASTYNOWICZ, cont~d: special exception to the zoning laws. To quote from the Town Code no special exception shall be granted unless the Board determines the following: that the safety~ health, welfare, comfort and-convenience or the order of the town will not be adversely affected by the proposed location and its use. McDonalds will adversely effect Southold Town. It will change the character of the community. One fast food restaurant in our area sets a precedent in many, many more to follow. Look at most McDonalds and know there's the competition down the street. You know who they are, Burger King, Taco Bell, Popeyes, etc2 Is this what the future holds for our community. McDonald's application for special exception was full of inconsistencies right from the start. What are the real answer to the question li~e how much garbage will really be produced each day? What effect will it have on the local restaurants? What about jobs? This week on channel two I saw the talk show This Morning. They showed how the fast food industry is working on automation in the restaurants. The study said that in the coming years these chains will be able to run with out people in the kitchens. The remaining half of them all can get little or more than minimum wage. So the job issue shows inconsistencies also. The strong public outcry against allowing this zoning exception shows the desire present to keep Southotd Town from destroying its character. People in this town have survived for 351 years without fast food restaurants. The Town Code was written to protect us. Please use the power to do so. Here is yet another petition against the fast food chains application with over 500 names. In closing I just want to point out the lack of concern this corporation has for Southotd Town. McDonald's May 31st letter to the Board of Appeals asks that a third public hearing not be held as it might confuse people. Well, we're not confused at all. These public hearings are meant for everyone to fully understand the situation. So again, please deny the application by MoDonalds for a special exception to the zoning laws. This is one exception we neither need nor want. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR~MELOSH: My name is Arthur Melosh, I'm a resident of Mattituck. I'm a retired restaurant man and I really hate to see a restaurant being badgered. What's going on tonight. One thing in favor of McDonalds is they operate the cleanest places of all the fast food, number one. I receive restaurant magazines twice a month and the last magazine I received, restaurant news, showed McDonalds nation wide going down 3% of gross sales. The European sales have just skyrocketed. What stimulated the McDonalds in the United Page 38 - November 21, 1991 Public Nearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z~B.A. MR MELOSH, cont'd: States over the last probably six months to a year is the placing of children's parks. And I don't see anything in the site plan to allow for something like that which i don't think is feasible here in the Town of Southold. Or are there plans for the future as far as these, they call them theme parks, they do bring a lot of young people. I think that should be checked upon. CHAIRMAN GOEHRIN~ER: Okay. Would you like to reflect upon that. MR MINEO: Well the site plan doesn't depict a park we have no intentions for a park. MR MELOSH: What happens is business goes off and you have to stimulate business. That's what they're doing throughout the country. MS WACHSBERGER: Freddie Wachsberger, I'm president of the Orient Association. There have been so many presentations made here throughout all of these hearings, that I would just like to talk for a minute about, well I'll start by saying maybe a lot of people saw this proceeding discussed on channel 7 news this afternoon at 5:30. Somebody came out to Southold, was photographed with this beautiful tree lined streets and historic houses and it was said that this is the only town on Long Island that doesn't have a fast food restaurant and a few people interviewed who wanted keep it that way. And looking at the beautiful spread of Southold, the trees and the houses I felt really proud no be a citizen ol this place that has managed to preserve its identity the way it has. That's one of the things that the British visitors emphasized. That we really have an opportunity to make some decisions about how we want Southold Town to be and these are decisions that are made on a case by case basis. The effect is cumulative° But every decision is individual, like this one. And in some ways I think this is ~he most important one although there will be many coming along over the next five or ten years and maybe each one will be as difficult to make as this one~ hut one has to keep in mind the cumulative effect. I know that when I toured in the United States and look in guide books and read about the 5own that's described as being a historic town with a lot of charm and I go to look at it and I don~t know whether other people share the same experlence, but when I drive into that town and see a McDonalds something inside me says, we're too late. That makes it mn a way I realize that what I'm doing is making McDonalds symbolic and maybe that's unfair to McDonalds, but it has achieved for me and I think for a lot people in America the same symbolic value. And the exciting Page 39 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS WACHSBERGER, cont'd: thing is that here in Southold it isn't too late. That's it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll switch over the right side of the room. We have one more gentlemen in the rear, I apologize. Yes sir? MR CALLAHAN: Thank's very much. Pat Callahan, part-time resident of New Suffolk and next year I'll be full-time in Mattituck and currently Bayside Queens. On and off over the years in any civic type issues I try to share my experience and background as a professional engineer and also some very versed in environmental sciences and the SEQRA process in the like. Before I, to read you my written comments, I'd like to make a particular point in terms of building needs a good foundation. And I kind of think that this whole process doesn't necessarily have a good foundation in that I think it was shaky when it started out. I'd like to kind of hit a few points with respect to that. At the April 5th meeting I commented on the traffic growth and the cumulative impact as the last speaker brought up, I think the traffic growth aspects have been fairly well addressed and it's fairly obvious that's they could be. It's your hope of respect that technology and the magic the traffic engineers performed. None of the documentation, however, that I've reviewed in any way addresses cumulative impact. At the request of the North Fork Environmental Council after the last meeting, I went through all the files as thoroughly as I could and I found that the, as a matter of fact, the consultants in the Town of Southold, the consultants to the McDonald's folks did not mention in anyway shape, or form. However, the conditional negative declaration was still issued. And again this is what I believe is rather a significant flaw in the process. The SEQRA process again is provided for, it's the ground rules for all that's to plan the development by. Us versus them, we've got to work with something, the basis for it is the SEQRA process. Very clear, sometimes some of the things maybe need a little interpretation, that's what the good councils will provide to us. The SEQRA process again, not to be redundant, bu~, that consider~ the impact on the character of community important, okay. And it requires that if you consider prior to taking action. In this case, the ~pproval of McDonald's proposal by the Town of Southold. In other words, you got to meet all the requirements before you give the approval. More specifically, the state requires that the approving agency, again, the Planning Board, look at it if the proposed action will set an important precedent to the future. Okay. That's our concern. And basically again that's why we were here on the 5th, that's why we're here tonight, that's are in essence, not no be trite, but beef Page 40 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR CALLAHAN, cont'd: with McDonalds. I would just like to say that we treated this quite seriously. In current with the Z.B.A.'s request to the Commission New York State Department of Environmental Conservation for input or an assessment of its reading on the solid waste issues. We also and it's in the good gracing of the North Fork Environmental Council also requested that the Commissioner assess the issue with respect to the SEQRA. The advice that came back in essence was the only way to address, the floor will be by litigation. Again I believe our fears of the invasion of the North Fork by the fast food people is our underlying concern. Again~ as the speaker preceding me~ as she mentioned it's we don't know who's yet out there and they're going to be coming. I don't know if they can be totally stopped, but I do know that in essence the appropriate planning guidelines, land use, and so on an esthetic standards were in place to hatch the coming of McDonalds would not have elicited the reaction it has today. But by some of the things in terms seem to be totally not addressed in terms of where they can site, again the buffer zones~ the adjacent, what its impact on the adjacent community. And I guess someone this evening is going to make reference to the signs and again I won't keep harping itt it's just going to be a disaster as you're coming into Mattituck it's going to McDonaldville and you know that they're the largest single advertiser, utilizing Long Island Rail Road overpasses and structures. So basically leave with that. Again I don't know how we're standing in essence, how you folks come out. Some wheres along the line a greater recognition has to be that again if it's not McDonalds it's going to be someone else~ As others have pointed out and it can't all be dealt with in this fashion and it really has to be perhaps more studies, more addressing in respect to the zoning~ the respective guidelines~ esthetics, and the like. Implemented if it has to happen~ happen in should we say a more orderly way and minimize the impact on the entire area. I thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you sign in please. Let's go over to the other side of the robm for a moment and then we'll deal wi~h the lady in the back corner first and then we'll go. Before you just mention something~ I just want to mention that the purpose of the recesses are basically two- fold. Number one~ we've been sitting here for a long period of time and there is just so much infusion that one can take without taking a recess, so within the next few minutes we'll take another two minute recess which will be two or three minutes. Go ahead. MS HUNTINGTON: I'm Mary Anne Huntington~ I live in Page 41 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS HUNTINGTON, cont'd: Cutchogue. I have a prepared sort of statement here that I'm not going to read in its entirety, but I will submit it to the Board. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wonderful, thank you. MS HUNTINGTON: And in the essence of time I'll just paraphrase a few of the comments. I did not have the advantage and I've been at all the hearings to read the traffic study or even sort of absorb it. I'm just going to quote in page 39 this from the traffic submitted by the Dunn Engineering. Our traffic engineering study and analysis have led us to conclude that A. The continuity of the traffic flow on the adjacent roadways will not be disrupted. B. No adverse traffic impact will occur and C. Undue traffic cengestion will not be created by the addition of traffic from the proposed'McDonald's restaurant. Specifically I think something should be considered. We already know that the state is going to mandate a turn lane; we know that the D.O.T. usually specifies that it has to be a certain distance width and so forth. It would be one of two turn lanes on the extent of Route 25 from Riverhead to Greenport. It's not uncommon for a turn lane to be terminated by a signalized intersection. Also, this is on a personal basis as a commuter. By making a turn lane at that point, it's one of the few safe places that one can pass on the Main Road. I think the vast numbers of cars quoted in the study compounded by the drive-through accessory would not impact surrounding areas is ludicrous. It is know that one curb cut on a road impacts adjacent areas. This section of Main Road between Laurel Lake and Wickham Road historically has one of the highest incidents of accidents east of Riverhead~ Additional traffic also impacts of the character and well being of the surrounding residential areas and roadways. The roads chosen for the study do not reflect the norm of the area. Laurel Lake Road used in the study is not the best direct road from the North Road or Sound Ave to Route 25. Factory Road is not a through~oad tc Route 48. Wickham Road, Love Lane, Elijah's Lane or any of the lanes east would be more commonly used as through roads~ Wickham Road at Main Road, incidentally has one of the highest frequency of accidents in the area. Another road used is Sigsbee Road, which is a lightly traveled residential street and the data from that road was from a study in 1980 which was adjusted to 1991. The intersection immediately east of Old Main Road was omitted. Bay Ave with beach and park district as well as a terminus of Peconic Bay Blvd was omitted. New Suffolk Ave the only east west route to and from the hamlet of New Suffolkwas omitted. Love Lane and the downtown Mattituck, one or'the few signalized intersections on Main Road was Page 42 - November 21, 1991 ~ Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS HUNTINGTON, cont'd: omitted. The Mattituck Plaza Shopping Center with one of the highest flow rates and incidents of accidents on the length of Main Road was omitted. Finally, no one has defined what undue traffic congestion is. Well in the Town of Southold I have decided that undue traffic congestion is when you're stuck behind the slow moving farm vehicle in a no passing zone and ! hope it stays that way. The last comment is the message is loud and clear° A drive-through restaurant is not in accordance with the Town Codes and the community character. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again over on the west side. MS KANZ: My name is Cassie Kanz. I'm the president of an environmental club in Southold. I'm here to express the opinions of most of my friends. We don't want McDonalds coming to us° I feel that if McDonalds comes it will open the way for big businesses. We are the ones who will be living in Southold Town for a long time to come and we don't want to see the rural environment o~ Southold Town destroyed with big businesses coming in to destroy it. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR ERONA: Hi, my name Tom Erona, I'm the vice president of the environmental club at school and I just want it to be known~ I don't have it in for McDonalds. i wasn't hit on the head with a McDonalds sign as a young boy or something. It's just the idea of the fast food restaurants coming and the proposal that McDonalds has for carting away their waste is great and that would more or less solve the problem of the waste coming from McDonalds but it doesn't, there's no guarantee that when the Burger King comes they'll have the same agreement; and when the Wendy's comes; and when the Arbee's comes; and the Pizza Hut comes. There's no guarantee thau they're going to cart away their waste and maybe they won't be as gracious as McDonalds. And I just don't like to see the rural environment we have here, it's such a beautiful area as it is now. A lot of times we take that for granted and I think that this is just the first step if this gets passed for $outhold Town becoming like another Rocky Point or West Islip o~ something and I don't know I think the mini- malls are fine way up the island and I don't really think we need many more mini-malls and that type of a~mosphere as you get further wesu up the island° CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you both to sign in. Thank you very much. MS MELLENGER: I also value my first amend~r~en~ rights and I Page 43 November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS MELLENGER, cont'd: really feel so proud to be here tonight to be part of this process. I did, I have short statement to make. I didn't do the type of research that some pe6ple were able to do. But I appreciate being heard. I was asked tonight and how long have you lived in this Town? Well let me say I love Mattituck, I feel that it has a charm and I want to see it maintained the way our founding fathers intended it. We attempt, my husband and I, to be good citizens and to give back to the community and I don't know what else to say about that. Okay, I'm here tonight to try to save our town from the greed of developers. A corporation such as McDonalds has a profit motive for its goal. But what troubles me most are the motives of some of the residents who come from old North Fork families who will sell out their neighbors in this lovely community setting. Think of the noise pollution and the many homes situated within hearing range of the drive-through window. On a summers night we can hear the charming sounds of a ball game from the baseball field in Laurel.. which is a mile from our house. But who wants to here people ordering Big Macs when they're sitting in their backyard in the summer. Think of the traffic congestions and the cars that will have to wait an inordinate ~mount of time when they are coming out of Bray Ave and onto the Main Road. We don't have, nor do we need a traffic light in Mattituck. Will we need one in the future? I did write down about the garbage and then I crossed it and then now I just want to comment. That I sense a certain arrogance toward us when %he people from McDonalds speak and they give us half truths and they tell they're going to be carting the garbage and they don't tell us that if they do get the special exception by the time they open they're not going to have to because they're going to be part of whatever we do. Don't do that to us. This is not the kind of community that likes to be fooled. And now let me just talk about the effect on our unique small businesses. Our family owned and family run shops. Businesses now are lucky to he surviving. Bringing in a chain operation will bring to us a stripe similar to those in Western Suffolk and that type of an atmosphere. We moved here to escape to this charming community. These chains in Mat~ituck will change the nature and character oX this rural community. Don't let it happen here. CHAIRMAN GOEt{RINGER: Okay, Ronnie the last person. I want to take a two minute recess after this okay. MS WACKER: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If everybody would just hold out. Page 44 - November 21~ 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation $outhold Z.B.A. MS WACKER: My name is Ronnie Wacker and I'm a resident of Cutchogue. And I too want to thank you Members of the Board, for the careful scrutiny that you've been giving this application because I think that this is probably one of the most important decisions~that you will have to make in a long time to come. Just this past week I was out in Indiana. We drove out, we usually fly and that's why the drive was such a shock to me~ We drove out on Route 80 and we came on Route 76 and 78. And you know what it seems to me, and I may be wrong about this. But it seems to me that at every single exit we saw a huge sign either McDonalds or Burger King or Taco Bell and when we would come to it there would be a cluster° They cluster like ants. There were several of them. You could count on seeing the same ones at every exit. I came away thinking~ McDonalds must have half a million of these places around the country. And then i learn that no they don't have half a million~ the figure is more like 8500~ which is still substantial. But we're driving through this lovely Pennsytvania~ Indiana and Ohio countryside with its dairy farms and other farms and the landscape was scared periodically by these various operations. I don't think that this is what we want. Mindful of what was coming up here tonight I spoke to a few people in various places that we stayed over and asked them how they felt about this intrusion into there countryside and they said they hated ire I said why did you let it happen? They said they didn't know. We didn't know that it was going to be like this. Because the people that we spoke to told us that they Were going to meet many benefits from the additions. If we could change it now we would~ but it's too late. Well I just hope that it will not be too late here and t do want you to know that we hope that you will be firm in your stance and we'd like you ~o know that you have our support in refusing to grant a special permit to an operation that will certainly change the character of this town. Thanks. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need a resolution. I need a motion to reconvene~ Second. Al! in Favor - AYE. Mrs~ Brown I believe your up. MS BROW~N: Good evening my name is Betty Brown and I'm representing the North Fork Envirornnental Council as their president. There are many reasons to request that the Board of Appeals deny McDonalds a special permit to construct a fast food restaurant on the Main Road in Mattituck. The NFEC supports mosu of the reasons we've heard here tonight. Certainly we believe in and want to promote Southold's rural character. It is a necessary and valuable resource directly tied to Southold~s future economic strength. Many of us believe that urban squirrel has no place in $outhold and that Page 45 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS BROWN, cont'd: with this fast food giant comes a sign of urban development and all the negative consequences it brings. Other fast food giants, traffic and more unplanned corridors of what ever developers want. The North Fork Environmental Council is completely aware of the constraints facing this Board regarding this permit. We understand that even though hundreds or even thousands of people don't want you to grant this permit that you are required by law to find a valid and legal reason within the code to deny it. We believe that Section 100-264B as well 100-264A under matters to be considered, and 100-263E under general standards offers the Board a strong argument and one that the Town Attorney can investigate and will stand the court scrutiny. These sections deal with the unusual location of residences in the very neighborhood that this intense fast food use must co- exist. If this permit is granted on this site, the residents and their property values, their quality of life and character of their neighborhood will be adversely affected. We admit many homes and families can function without considerable impact in commercial districts, and also in this districts. Examples are numerous on the North Fork. Homes are next to retail shops, insurance agencies, pharmacies, donut shops, and more and manage to be compatible. But think seriously for a moment. Would any of you folks on this Board want to live adjacent'to a M~Donalds? Think of what weekend afternoons might be like. Or think, of trying to sell your home as a residence to someone else. Gentlemen this project site being within a residential neighborhood directly next to houses is unsuitable for a fast food location. We believe this to be a strong legal argument and we ask the Board to visit the homes and give this matter serious consideration. After listening to the many comments, I get a sense that most people want a change in the way government in Southold looks a~ and deals with our rural environment. If this branch of government is willing to make that change, to take the steps necessary in ~hatever legal way it can take for representing what is best for Southold's countryside and Southold's future we will support you in every way we can. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.' MS PHILLIPS: My name is Dorothy Phillips and I am speaking as the public spokesmen for the League of Women Voters, since it is a national organization I will explain first our interest in it and then proceed to the subject at hand. Gentlemen, the Board of the League of the Women Voters, Riverhead-Southold has voted to oppose the McDonald's application. We do this under our national position on natural resources when this the court comprehends its long range plans and believe that wise decision making requires Page 46 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.Ao MS PHILLIPS, cont'd: consideration of environmental public health, social and economic impacts of proposed plans and actions. The Planning Board in the Planning Board in finding that a fast food drive-in restaurant would cause no significant environmental impact and that no SEQRA study was necessary ignored New York State criteria Section 617.11 of the State Environmental Quality Review Act. Listed in general criteria to focus attention on important environmental considerations. These criteria included substantial adverse change to existing water quality or noise levels and a substantial increase in solid waste production. Members of the community have raised again and again the possible problems of traffic and customer noise, litter, solid waste production and road run off in the area. In a community so troubled by garbage knowing the amount of waste produced is essential. We fault the Planning Board for failing to use the required process in our behalf. According to Article 10 Section B - general business section of the Southold Zoning Code - uses permitted by special exception include fast food restaurants, provided eating on the premises shall be permitted only in the building or in properly maintained areas outside. But further, the code states that the drive-in restaurant is not a permitted use. I repeat, the drive-in restaurant is not a permitted use. Granting a variance or a exception, special exception to McDonalds to proceed sets a precedent for other fast food drive-in operations~ There can then be no believable assurances from local officials that this will not happen again, and again° Members of the U.$./U.Ko Planning team that surveyed the North Fork in July were impressed with the uniformed vision that we share to preserve the historical, agricultural, and maritime quality of our environment. They mentioned it again. This area is special and it is unique buts we will no longer be that if we have a fast food strip similar to those all over the island. We reiterate~ we stand in opposition to McDonalds. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Lowry, I'm not here to embarrass you sir, but there were statements that you made at a prior hearing that did not make me happy. If you intend to deal with the issue, the germane issue at hand and not go into specifics concerning the chairperson and other people I have no objection to your speaking, sir. MR LOWRY: Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I shall be brief and I promise I shan't wonder from the subject. My name is Tom Lowry~ I'm from New Suffolk. I was struck this evening by the fact that you people on the Zoning Board And when somebody like Mr. Goodale comes before you, you must decide does he represent healthy or Page 47 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR LOWRY, cont'd: unhealthy growth. My position and the position of many of the people here is that McDonald's restaurant represents a cancer or a possible cancer in our good town and I hope that you will identify it as such and deny their application. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you sir. MS LOWRY: My name is Ann Lowry, I'm from New Suffolk. CHAIRFLAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do? MS LOWRY: It seems to me that you people have a marvelous opportunity. I spoke to a number of people before coming here tonight who were not for this project and hoped that it would be denied and said, well what's the point of even coming here; writing a letter; or doing anything because it's a foregone conclusion. That's gonna happen anyway, it doesn't matter what we say. It seems to me that you have a wonderful chance to boost the moral oi a lot of people in this town and give them a different idea of the way some of the government works here. I hope you will deny the application. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Again Warren could you remain to the topic please. MR GOLDSTEIN: Why, Mr Goehringer. I won't dream of nou being germane, but there's been so much eloquence in the room tonight that I'll be considerably briefer than usual. The experience of the last forty years or so of these kinds of projects, of strip malls and fast food restaurants has not been good in this country. And as a result many places thau had individual character no longer have it. In fact what they have is a uniformed character which is perfectly recognizable through Ohio, Indiana, and Pennsylvania, Utah and Texas. Riverhead, New York where I live a half a mile from Route 58 and Riverside, California. There's no way to distinguish between them because the culture looks the same. Now if you want to fight that amd people in this town care about fighting that, only got a couple of things they can use. You have the zoning code, the thing that helps to give the town its leader character and shape and they've got themselves, the people. Now in this issue it seems to me that we have both. We have the zoning code, you asked at the beginning of this hearing that people confine their comments to legal arguments, things that can really be turned into a decision f~om the Board of Appeals and you"ve gotten a lot of those tonight. And I just wanu to say someEhing that Nancy Sawastynowicz said, I just want to say it slowly from the Page 48 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR GOLDSTEIN, cont'd: code book and that is that the general standards for granting a special exception Section 100-263C; that the safety, the health, the welfare, the comfort, the convenience, or the order of the town will not be adversely affected by the proposed use and its location. There are people in this town who understand, most of the people in this town understand that if this project is approved, if the special exception is granted that that will go counter to Section 100-263C. Those things will be adversely affected. The U.S./U.K. visitors, people came from all around the United States and from across the Atlantic and spent a little time here intensive time with people in this town. This other view I think as well and they found exactly the same thing. People here don't wanu Southold uo look like every other town in the United States and they pleaded with us to figure out a way to use the tools that we had to keep the town having a special character. So that the vision of the people that live here could actually be implemented in the future. That possibility ~s before you tonight~ The other thinG we've got is the people. The amount of expertise in this room, the number of facets at this issue that have been explored and research legally and sociologically and historically, about McDonalds and the like. The survey of McDonalds all over Long tsland~ it sits up there for us all to see. That's a tremendous resource that you have to rely on. So you've got the code and you've got the people. That's a terrific combination of things if you want to keep the town the way I think that you all do want to keep it. Please deny this application, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before I forget. I please want to reiterate again that we will be accepting comments until December 9th, which is a Monday. We will act as a filtering agency. We will then submit those to McDonalds and hopefully they will then as expeditiously as they can answer them and send them back to us so that you may have your answer at the same time. Any other comments~ yes i'll be right with you, any other comments will be forthcoming will be comments until, actually what will happen is we will physically close the hearing on December 16th au our next regularly scheduled meeting. However, the hearing is for all intensive purposes closed for oral testimony as of tonight, okay. So I just want you to aware of that situation. Yes mam. MS BROWN: My name is Margaret Brown and I live in Southold and what I~m going to say has already been said actually by at least four other people° And i'm going to just crystalize it for you if I can. And that is that the law is on your side, you have, you don't have to look for a way to deny this application° Three places in the code book it states ~/ndez Page 49 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS BROWN, cont'd: limited business, under hamlet business, and under general business it tells here that restaurants are permitted except drive-in restaurants. It says that in limited business, you know this already, it says that in hamlet business restaurants are permitted excluding drive-in restaurants. And under general business it says that you have to actually make a special exception to allow a fast food restaurant and if you do that the eating must only occur within the restaurant itself, within the boundaries of the restaurant or in a specially designated area that is properly maintained at the restaurant. But to go to the extent of granting a drive-in window isn't even addressed in any place that I can discover. So I think that you are in good hands with the zoning code and you certainly have our support. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I want you to again be aware of the people that have spoken and have been remise, on signing because it's very important that we have the correct spelling of your name. This is no reflection on anybody that's spoken. But it is very important that we get that. I will ask at this time if the Board has any specific questions of any one in the audience or McDonalds concerning this application~ Okay. I will then ask again any final closing quick commen~s, yes mam. MS STEINER: My name is Sally Steiner and I have a business in Mattituck. I think that one thing that struck me that was sort of omitted or superficially addressed was that if the garbage is trucked out of town it's no longer our problem. We are all children of the earth because it's not under our nose doesn't mean it's no longer our problem. Just because we throw the garbage over our fences into our neighbors yard does not mean that we no longer have an obligation to our children to protect the earth and the integrity of this earth. And I think that the cavalier approach that McDonalds has adopted in an effort to sort of collectively shove this through or down our throats as it were. It is rather dis-ingenerous and feel that that approach is not an answer. And the answer is to deny the application. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In closing I would like to thank everybody's courtesy. Okay I'll be right with you. You're welcome to stand up there. In closing I would like to thank everybody's courtesy in this particular hearing I thought this was a fairly well run, not in reference to my being here well run, but in reference to everybody's opinions being germane to the specific area that we are dealing with. Some of them, there has been always some redundancy but that's typical and we understand that and we sometimes entertain that because there is again just so much that one single Page 50 - November 21, 1991 ~ Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.Ao CHAIRMAN, cont'd: individual person can digest. Sir. MR MORRIS: Can I make a comment? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely. MR MORRIS: My name is Mel Morris, I live in Southold. I've been a property owner for ~wenty years. I~ve seen a lot of changes in that time and of course I've heard a lot against McDonalds here tonight and I've got to wonder if they've got to be doing something right they're very successful. But there's been a lot of finger pointing at McDonalds on the litter on the highway and they aren't even here. We've got the litter rlght now and I don't hear anybody saying anything about the budweiser, coors, pepsi, coke, 7-11, the deli's what have you° We, garbage generates from human beings. We've got a problem. All youtve got to do is go up and down any road and it's not McDonald's garbage it's our garbage. This is my first hearing, i~ve read a lot about this in editorial comment about Southold is loaded with delicatessens and good eating places but I've took it on myself some of these pieces I didn't know existed, I tried a couple of them and a lot of them don't even have sit down facilities. They, price wise they're not competitive and it's my way of thinking that's why a lot of'this opposition they know that MeDonalds is competition° They don't want them coming in and when you go to McDonalds au least you know what you're getting, it's fast, One of my prime concerns is if McDonalds is denied this the, I believe they've got the where to fight you. And I got to be concerned with how Southold is going to fight this and where our tax rates are going. Are we going to be able to afford to live an this place; So that's my comment. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you sir. Yes, briefly. MS SIDLAUSKAS: Yes I'll be brief. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your name again Debbie. MS SIDLAUSKAS: Debbie Sidlauskaso As far as tax dollars to fight a legal battle. Your taxes will not go down or remain the same if McDonald comes in. Development that you see up on the board there does no~ keep your tax base level or lower your tax base. Any area up the island west of here that has developed by fact their taxes have gone up, and up, and up, and up, and up. Just like every where else. So it's not going to helpo It will just make it harder. We'll need more policemen; we'll need more, in the event that we do have to truck garbage; we'll need more-trucking facilities. So it's Page 51 - November 21, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS SIDLAUSKAS, cont'd: not going to save us a penny. The taxes that they'll contribute are a spit in the bucket to what it will cost if we let that happen to Southold Town° CHAIPd~AN GOEHRINGER: No further comments. You have one more. Fine. MR PILLAI: You said that the oral co~wnents will close tonight. That as well. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MR PILLAI: And when will written comments or written suggestions? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We would like to receive any written comments by December 9th, okay, so that we can give them to McDonald's in the hopes that they will return them to us as quickly as they possibly could in December. Okay? MR PILLAI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Baring in mind of course that we have holidays upon us. Again I thank you all. I'm making a motion to recess this hearing to the last hearing of the year which is on December 16th. I'm closing the hearing to all comments. Gentlemen I offer that as a resolution. All in Favor - AYE. claire Glew (transcribed by tapes recorded by me on 11/21/91)