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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-04/05/1991 HEARING TRANSCRIPT OF. HEARING SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS SPECIAL MEETING OF FRIDAY, APRIL 5, 1991 Board ~embers Present: Chairman Gerard P. Goehringer Members: Doyen, Grigonis, Dinizio and Villa Linda Kowatski, Z.B.A. Secretary and approximately 150 persons in the audience. Appl. No. 4008 Applicant(s): Tony and Marie Kostoulas Location of Property: 1035 Aquaview Ave., East Marion NY County Tax Map No.: 1000-21-2-13 The Chairman reopened the hearing at 7:35 pm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll ask Mr. Randazzo if there is anything he would like to add the record? MR RANDAZZO: As of last, the Kostoulas are willing to~ as an alternative, I believe you received a letter from them. They are willing to remove that extension that is already existing in the back of the house. Therefore, not conflicting with the side yards any longer and allow them to put that extension the front which is closer to the street, which it. still remains about 40 foot setback. So that's the other alternative that they are suggesting. And I believe that they can sit with that. CHAIRFiAN GOEHRINGER: The existing, Mr. Randazzo, the existing 34 feet in length of the proposed reconstruction, so to speak, will fall within that footprint then? It will fall within that area? MR RANDAZZO: It will fall within that area with. CHAIP~4AN GOEHRINGER: If we allow you to push it to go 10 feet closer to the street. MR RANDAZZO: Yes, exactly. That is it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was lust looking for the survey. MEMBER VILLA: So you are getting away from.the bluff and you are going uo the fronu of the house? MR PJ~NDAZZO: Exactly. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At present we have, I don't know if you Page 2 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - Tony and Marie Kostoutas Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: have your records with you. We are showing approximately a 46 foot setback from the road? MR RANDAZZO: At present, you show about 40 about 50 feet from the road. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are showing 50 feet. MR RANDAZZO: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So therefore you are requesting 40 feet? MR RANDAZZO: Exactly. The benefit will be of course that the bluff distance now will be increased by about 9 feet. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see. The only thing that concerns me is, okay I see the 50 feet, you have 46 penned in and that's the reason why I didn't understand. Because normally 46 minus 10 is 36. MR RANDAZZO: No. In fact with the 10 would extend it to the front with still a remaining 40 foot. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So if this Board was so inclined to grant you a 40 foot setback, front yard setback, you can construct this dwelling in its present planned entirety as I have it here in that area. (UNIDENTIFIED): I can't hear you. CHAIRMAN GOEMRiNGER: .What Mr. Randazzo is asking for instead of moving toward the bluff, is to slide the house 10 feet closer to the road. MR BAUER: 10 feet? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Closer to the road. There are two stakes presently in the front of the house now. MR BAUER: He has stakes there. They are more than 10 feet. Much more like 12. or 14 feet thau he has out toward the road. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did you measure those. Excuse me just one second, Did you, Mr. Randazzo, measure those stakes, are they exactly 10 feet? MR RANDAZZO: Yeah. They are exactly 12 feet right now. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They are 12 feet right now? Page 3 April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - Tony and Marie Kostoulas Southold Z.B.A. MR RANDAZZO: They are 12 feet now. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you are only asking for 10 feet? MR RANDAZZO: 10 feet. The only reason I put 12 feet is because the second floor is extending two foot overhang, I assumed that would have been more then. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is a cantilever off the front of the house? MR RANDAZZO: Exactly. That's the only reason it was 12. The actual building will be 10 feet. CHAIRMkN GOEHRINGER: Thank's so much. MR RANDAZZO: Your welcome. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Bauer, would you like to be heard? MR BAUER: Now what is going to be done on the water side, is he going to demolish the porch that's there and rebuild? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what he says. MR BAUER: No, it's going to stay as is. MR RANDAZZO: No. It is going to be demolished and taken away. MR BAUER: Now, is that allowable? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why wouldn't it be allowable? MR BAUER: Well he's only got a setback there now of, if he disturbs that and starts excavating, you are going to have trouble there. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Randazzo, I very rarely get into a back and forth situation. Go ahead Mr. Randazzo. MR RANDAZZO: It's going to be quite simple, it's only an existing slab, there is no foundation. It will be just taken out taken away. It's not going to be any disturbance to the ground or the bluff. CHAIRMAN GOEPIRINGER: Do you have any idea how far that slab is down? MR RANDAZZO: About this much. Page 4 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - Tony and Marie Kostoulas Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEHI~INGER: It's a top slab then. Sitting right on the ground? MR RANDAZZO: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you have any objection to that Mr. Bauer? MR BAUER: No. If that's what is to be done. Now when he cantilevers out over. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is road side. MR BAUER: What's the water side? No he wan~s the cantilever there too. How far is he going out with tha~ cantilever? CHAIRMA~ GOE~RINGER: Is there a cantilever on the second ssory toward the water side? MR R3uNDAZZO: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's straight back on the house? The rear of the house is straight? MR RANDAZZO: Just the front. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just the front of the house? MR RANDAZZO: The rest of the house is straight. MR BAUER: Okay. Under, on his print he shows a deck up to the wa~er side. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the second floor? MR BAUER: On the second floor. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He's referring to this one Vito. MR BAUER: We have no objections if he does not disturb where that bluff is. MR RANDAZZO: Now what it shows there is a just small deck. Just a balcony for the window. MR BAUER: You show a cantilever there of how many feet? MR RkNDAZZO: I don't see how it's going to disturb the ground. It's suspended in mid air. Page 5 April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - Tony and Marie Kostoulas Southold Z.B.A. MR BAUER: How are you going to support it? Are you going to? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Bauer you have to address the Board because we are taking this down. That's alright no problem. Do you have any idea how big the deck is, Mr. Randazzo? MR RANDAZZO: It's about two or three foot and it's just a balcony that's with a sliding glass door unsupported. Those posts are not necessary and they are just tapered in. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see. Do you have any objection to that? MR BAUER: I would like a detailed drawing showing how far he will go to the water, to the bluff and what type of supports he will give that balcony without disturbing that ground at all. CHAIRMAN GOER-RINGER: Well he just said that the balcony is not going to. MR BAUER: Well that's what he said, excuse me, but when. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well we'll put the restriction in the decision, I don't have a problem with that. You tell me what you have a problem with. Let's work it out here and get it taken care of. MR BAUER: Okay. I mean of his s~orles he says four feet and on another he shows eight feet. What does he have on his front? CHAIRFLAN GOEHRINGER: In reference to distance to the top of the rim of the bluff. Okay. When I measured it when it was squared off, I was over the other night, I got 12.9 feet on the east side, if you wen~ to the pos~s that were placed to square off the house. And I had 20 feet on the west side. Now we have to know what the distance is of the existing rear porch. Do we have any idea what the depth of that is? Is it 8 feet, is it 9 feet? MR RANDAZZO: The rear porch at this point? C~AIRM~Gq GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Right. MR RANDAZZO: The existing porch? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The existing porch. Page 6 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - Tony and Marie Kostoulas Southold Z.B.A. MEMBER VILLA: 7.9 it says right here. MR RANDAZZO: 7.9. CHAIRMAi~ GOEERINGER: It's 7.9 feet, okay, so if we took the porch off on the west side we would be 27.9 feet from the edge on the east side. Okay, you would be 12.9, that was an average by the way, it's really about 13, so you would be 13 plus 7, you would be about 20 feet. MR BAUER: As it is where he had it staked out to the east property line, he had only between 8 and 9 feet to the bluff. CHAIPdW2kN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR BAUER: Now you consider the bluff where it starts to taper and that's all we had at that particular time. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you don't have an objection if he cuts that back porch off, does not penetrate the rear of the property in any way for this small deck that he intends to put off the second story? MR BAUER: No. As long as he doesn't disturb any ground for footings. So when they get in there with a digger, that whole ground is going to shake. CHAIRMA~ GOER-RINGER: ! understand. I thank you. MR BAUER: Could I ask one more thing? CHAIRMAN GOEMRINGER: Sure. MR BAUER: What do you consider the square footage for the amount of ground that can be covered? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 20% you are allowed to cover. MR BAUER: 20%, well he has plenty. Okay, no objections. CHAIRFLAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. MR BAUER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Randazzo, so that's basically the way we will deal with this issue. We'll slose the hearing at this point and we'll make a decision as expeditiously as we can. MR RANDAZZO: Thank you. Page 7 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - Tony and Marie K0stoulas Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for coming. Thank you, Is there anybody else who would like to speak? Hearing no further comment I make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. All in Favor - AYE, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for coming in. Appl. No. 3970 Applicant(s): McDonald's Corporation Location of Property: S/S Main Road, Mattituck County Tax Map No.: 1000-122-7-3.1 The Chairman reopened the hearing at 7:40 pm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would like to welcome everybody here concerning thiS second continuing hearing for McDonald's Corporation and we would'like to ask Mr. Mineo if there was anything that he would like to continue with, hopefully decibel readings and so on and so forth that we asked him. MR MINEO: There is something, can everybody hear me? There is some information concerning the speakers that will be installed in the menu board, Mr. Chairman. The first person, I have three consultants, who are representatives of McDonalds that I would like to address the Board this evening, relating to some of the questions that were raised during the last month's public hearing. There will be Ernest Annabel, a representative of McDonalds; Timothy Barnes, the Real Estate Appraiser who testified last month; and Walter Dunn. Their testimony Will not reiterate or revisit all those issues that were discussed last month, I think that's now a matter of record and they're also memorialized in various writings, so it's not necessary for them to repeat all that. But what they would like to point out is some of those, answer some of the concerns that the Board had and some of the people that are present this evening as well. So unless the Board has any particular questions for me I'll ask Mr. Annabel to step forward and. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Fine. MR MINEO: During the last public hearing, there were some questions raised about some aspects of the design. So with that in mind, Stephen Fetdman, the project architect, and Mr. Annabel prepared some revisions to the site plan and Mr. AnnabeI will take the Board and the people who are here this evening through the site. Page 8 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIILWLAN GOEHRINGER: Just wait one second. Some of these people sitting in the back cannot see that and I know that it's going to be difficult.' They were wondering if you could move it over there in front of the original site plan? MR MINEO: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Everybody in the back, if you would like to open those doors up at least there will be room. I know it will be clogged in there. MR MINEO: Mr. Chairman, as they are arranging the easel, Mr. Feldman will be handing out to the Board copies of that revised site plan. MS KOWALSKI: Could I have one for the file please, sir? Thank you. MR ANNABEL: Mr. Chairman and Members of the Board I would like to just point out a few improvements we've made to the site plan since we presented it at the last hearing. ! think mos~ of them were in response to comments from this Board. First of all, we have added along this exit area here, what we call a grill space or a parking space for an additional vehicle that may go through the drive-through service and have to wait for a long order or something like that. I think that was expressly asked of us and we did have the room to add that. And we've done this same type of operation a= other restaurants and it works very well. So we put that in there. Another thing we've done ~n an effort to try to direct pedestrian traffic across the drive-through lane is to put in a striped cross walk on this side that lines up with the side walks taking the customers into the restaurant. We also made some improvements to the emergency access area. I believe we may have shown two parking stalls in line with that emergency access lane on the last site plan. We have taken those two parking stalls away, so that nobody could, it'll be striped to prevent anyone from parking in there so that that emergency access lane would always be open. Also, we've drawn in here this time the vehicle stacking around the drive-through operation. And again, depending on where you want to start counting those vehicles, from the final pick up window around the building, there are 15 car stacking capabilities. From the ordering statien back, there are seven car stacking. That basically sumamarizes the changes we have made. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. Page 9 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. 5IRMINEO: Mr. Annabel, during the last public hearing there were some questions raised concerning the volume of the speakers for the menu board. Since that time have you had an opportunity to investigate the types of speakers that are employed and how they are regulated? MR ANNABEL: Yes I have. MR MINEO: Perhaps you could describe to the Board the speakers that are used by McDonalds. MR ANNABEL: Okay. The sole purpose of the drive-through ordering station is to accommodate a conversation between the order'taker in the restaurant and the driver of the vehicle who is placing that order. So, it's in McDonald's interest to accommodate that conversation with an appropriate loudness level in that speaker and no more and no less. And I have some information that I will read to you that supports that. But let me also say that there is a volume control for the speaker in that ordering post and that volume control is located within the ordering post itself. It is set by the manufacturer and delivered to the site preset at a mid-range, relatively speaking, a mid-range volume level. It can be adjusted upward or downward, however, it would involve opening the post up and it involves a technician uo do it. It's not something that kids could tamper with so basically once it's set it would not be tampered with. The most recent installation of 5 such speaker that I've been involved with was in New Hyde Park and I've visited that site several times since our last hearing and I've tried to observe what is really happening there and t can tell you tha~ standing thirty feet away from the ordering station I could not hear, not only the person in the car, but also anything coming out of the speaker box. In fact, I stood twenty feet away from the ordering station directly alongside of it and could not hear anything coming out of the speaker box. The closest distance on this site application is eighty seven feet from our speaker ordering station to the nearest property line and so I would tell you that without a doubt, absolutely at eighty seven feet it would not be audible at the property line. I also have with me, I would like to submit this to the Board, this is a catalog cut showing what the ordering station looks like. Part of the wording on there indicates that it would accommodate a Marsh speaker and the reason I bring that up is the original manufacturer of the speaker components for the systems and they have been doing this for McDonalds since 1975 and they are now one of three suppliers that McDonalds uses system wide. I have here testimony from a Zoning Board of Appeals case in the Town of Huntington, dated January 15, 1981, that I would like also to submit to Page i0 -April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR ANNABEL, cont'd: the Board. The issue at case was basically the same as we are discussing now. The audibility of the drive-through speaker and I would like to read some excerpts from that if I can% Richard E. Marsh is the chairman of Marsh Communications and he is the person testifying here. He says, he's giving his qualifications, he says, I have a bachelor and masters degree from MIT in electronic engineering and a graduate major in acoustics. The attorney says I would appreciate it if you would address yourself specifically Mr. Marsh to the aspect of control of the sound. Part of the testimony says, this is the witness speaking, we happen to manufacture, it turns out, okay we happen to manufacture, it turns out to be the most complex system for McDonalds most highly sophisticated I might add, they pay better attention and they pay twice as much for that system than anyone else. The attorney asks can a person, can anybody in the McDonald's restaurant, employee or anybody, can they control or in any way affect the sound, the amount of sound that comes out of the speaker and the response is, in general no sir, the adjustment, that's set outside. The volume controls are out doors within the speaker posts under covers. No one normally but the installer even knows it's there. He goes on to say, generally the engineering objective h~s been to establish D comfortable level of sound for the driver of the automobile and for the passenger within the automobile. While at the same time if you are outside of the automobile, you might want to try it yourself sometime, walking around to the passenger side and standing there, you will, I have difficulty telling when the person indoors is speaking to the driver. I think what you are eluding to also is kind of interesting, if you walk around behind the speaker posts, you have difficulty even discerning that someone, that the someone indoors is speaking to the driver. Now that wasn't really planned to be there; it turned out that way. But it simply turned out that way, because of some of the objects i have. Like anyone interested in the customers is to provide a comfortable sound level to the driver. The attorney asks is it your testimony then Mr. Marsh that the sound from this system will not be audible beyond the property line at worse. And I was just talking about a property line that's eighty seven feet, by coincidence, away and the witness says that's correct. In other words if I was standing at the backyard of the closest house I would hear nothing, and the witness answers absolutely. The balance of the testimony I presented to you is just another witness who testified at that hearing, his name is Joseph Mosher and he's a McDonald's employee and he has been since 1966 and basically his testimony just reiterates that of Mr. Marsh. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Annabel could you, just before you Page 11 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: sit down, excuse me, Mr. Mineo, could you give us some indication on how many McDonalds on Long Island don't have drive-up windows or drive-through windows? MR ANNABEL: Yeah. We have that~ MR MINEO: Approximately ten, eleven. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ten out of fifty? MR MINEO: Fifty five. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ten out of fifty five, okay. What were the main reasons, objections? MR MINEO: Perhaps I could explain it. Of the approximately eleven restaurants that do not have drive-through windows, three of them are either within walls or within a store. The Sears store on Broadway in Hicksvilte has a McDonalds and there are two malls. They are internal stores, so they wouldn't be capable of having a drive-through window and McDonalds did not need drive-through windows with those locations. The other locations for the past ten years it's been McDonald's practice or policy not to construct a store without a drive-through window and there is only one exception to that, so, and that was an existing one that could not be retro-fitted with a drive-through window. The other stores are all pre 1981, 1982 something like that. But they were on the boards so to speak at least ten years ago and some of they go back to 1966 the early 70's and at that time drive-through windows were just evolving, in fact they were really starting to pick up speed. I guess Mr. Annabel can tell you better than I can. In the mid to late 70's. So a lot of the stores were built prior to the drive-through windows being a reality. And I've been involved with a n~mber of restaurants in addition to McDonalds and in many of our applications over the last thirteen years I have never presented an application for a restaurant of this type, fast food, quick service, call it what you want without a drive- through window. And I would even go as far as to say a number of our applications have involved retro-fitting existing restaurants with drive-through windows so it's not just the McDonalds but it's the policy of the industry generally. But from what I can see it wasn't, it's not been a question of objections to restaurants wi~h drive-through windows that have created this gap of say eight, ten, eleven restaurants without windows. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Page 12 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR MINEO: Have you spoken with Mr. Mosher? MR ANNABEL: I have. I spoke to him yesterday. MR MINEO: And did you reacquaint him with his testimony? MR ANNABEL: Yes. MR MINEO: Exactly what did he tell you concerning the types of speakers that are currently used? MR ANNABEL: He told me that the Marsh system and in fact that the perimeters that were discussed in this testimony are still'.applicable today. That the study of sound doesn't really change much through the years and a lot of the findings that were the basis of developing the sysuem still hold true today. Therefore, I felt that made his testimony from this Huntington case valid. MR MINEO: You recognize that the Board is concerned about noise levels at the very least migrating beyond the property line. What if anything you have prepared to do in connection other than installing a Marsh speaker and I~m assuming that you're willing to do that or an equivalent speaker. FLRANNABEL: Yes. MR MINEO: What in addition are you willing to do in order to assure this Board that there is not going to be any adverse impacts on surrounding properties due to noise? MR ANNABEL: McDonatds will covenant, if this Board allows that, the volume from the speaker box will not be heard beyond our property lines at this site. MR'MINEO: Mr. Annabel have you considered ways of doing that in addition. Marsh's testimony was predicated on mid-range? MR ANNABEL: Yes. MR MINEO: Of the things you can do in addition to lowering the volume below mid-range to insure that the noise won't be heard beyond the property line. MR ANNABEL: There are other things that we could possibly do if that need should arise. Some of the things we talked about were putting on some kind of an additional valance or screen hanging down in front of the speaker box if that should, and that would further defer the noise in a downward Page 13 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR ANNABEL, cont'd: fashion and therefore limit the exposure of the noise. That would be one thing that we could do. Also, I would just add that in general on all of our sites we do a lot of landscaping. Our property lines are always landscaped and that just adds additional screening from anything going on in the site. So that would also help. But, I don't think that we would ever get to that point because I think that this is a perceived problem and that eighty seven feet away I believe and I can tell you that you~ will not hear any noise from this ordering station. MR MINEO: We've invited the Board to visit the most recent location in New Hyde Park and as Mr. Annabel pointed out, those'houses are considerably closer to the menu board than would be any houses that surround this particular property. We abutted, in fact, a portion of the restaurant in New Hyde Park is within a residential zoning district. And we're much closer to single family dwellings than we are here. I would also point out to the Board although the dwellings that are in this island that's created by Main Road and Old Main Road are in the general business district that they are non- conforming, they are still of course worthy of protection and the Board is absolutely correct in being concerned about any impacts. But the Board should also keep in mind in considering what it is that we are attempting to do that it's certainly very reasonable in light of the purpose section !n Section 100-100, which says that the general business district is, among other things, it is designed to accommodate uses that benefit from large number of motorists that need fairly large parcels of land and that may involve characteristics such as heavy trucking and noise° But, McDonalds can and will limit the noise emanating from the menu board so that it is not obtrusive to any surrounding residents. And we would make that a covenant, a restrictive covenant. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. MR MINEO: I have no further questions for Mr. Annabel, if the Board has any? MR ARNOFF, TOWN ATTORNEY: I do. How would you propose to enforce that covenant? How would you propose that we would enforce that covenant? MR MINEO: Okay. As he pointed out initially, the menu board is... MR ARNOFF: I'm not talking about the practicalities, I'm saying, what if we have a neighbor complaint? What would you Page 14 April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR ARNOFF, cont'd: propose that happens? In other words we would then have a violation that would be heard in court or what is your? MR MINEO: Let me back up the process a little bit. As Mr. Annabel pointed out the menu board can be set adjusted at the factory, it's a sealed unit when it's installed. It can also be disassembled in part and adjusted in the field. My recommendation would be that representatives from McDonalds, the Building Department or whoever agree on what that senting is before a final certificate of occupancy or before a final c/o is issued so the store can never open unless and until that menu board is set to a volume that is non obtrusive to surrounding properties and at the same time consider whether or not an adjustment to the speaker by perhaps angling it somewhat downward, a valance as Mr. Annabel or some sort of a shield, so that what McDonalds is saying it's so sure that it can accommodate the town and the surrounding properny owners that it would say hold back the c/o unless and until we satisfy you on this issue. MR ARNOFF: I'm concerned about a year later when the volume gets cranked up and the neighbor next door gens cranked up with the volume golng up, from an enforcement point of view. MR MIN~O: Sure. MR ARNOFF: What's your proposal then? MR MINEO: Well the good news about that, Mr. Arnoff, is that it's the type of situation since it's the volume, and than can, it's not on a day by day situation such as the activities of an employee. One day they can do one thing another day they can do another. If in fact for some reason the volume gets cranked up, the only way you can do that is if they disassemble it, then McDonalds is going to have to disassemble it again and reduce it back. But if you've seen the suores in action, and as he's, as Mr. Annabel has pointed out, McDonalds has no greauer interest in having that message relayed from me to him, four feet at most, in fact Mr. Marsh's testimony in the transcript that's been submitted points out that the convenience and the comforn of the driver and any passenger in the car is very important so you don't want that thing blaring ouu. It's not like a speaker say in a used car lot that's mounted on a forty foot high pole and is mean~ to page somebody over a two acre parking lot. It's a very intimate arrangement. What the Board's concern is, the Board's concern is realistic. I would like to call Mr. Barnes to discuss one of the aspects that was of some concern last month and that is the real estate taxes that are Page 15 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR MINEO, cont'd: projected for the premises. MR BARNES: Good Evening. Yes I do. MR MINEO: I'm submitting Mr. chairman a copy of a letter from Timothy Barnes to my firm dated M~rch 25, 1991. MR BARNES: I'll outline the contents of the letter very quickly. I estimate the projected real estate taxes basically by determining three components. The three basic components of New York State that go into the real estate tax estimation and ad valorem system. The first component, of course, is estimating what the market value of the completed property will be. I did that through normal appraisal practices, given my experience in appraising similar properties including, by the way in the last month the McDonalds up on North Sea Road in the Village of Southampton I estimate the value of the proper~y as completed, real property only, that this does not include equipment and fixtures which are not taxable as real property at $650,000. To that I've applied the New York State Board of Equalization equalization rate, the equa.lization rate is a rate that when applied to a properties value will give it an assessment that puts it in keeping with the assessment of other properties in the same jurisdiction. The Board takes a sampling of property sales and assessments and establishes each year for the purposes of that town's assessor what the correct defacto ratio is. The town has the right to appeal for relatively minor changes and I believe the current tentative State Board of~Assessment ratio is 2.52% I've used 2.5% as the proposed next years, that is upon completion. You probably know that the equalization rate normally comes down each year, although it has been stabilizing somewhat. When the 2.5% is applied to the $650,000 market value it indicates an assessment of $16,250, and then to that, of course, is applied the local tax rate, that is the number of cents per dollar of assessment that has to be paid each year in real estate taxes. Based on an inquiry made of the Assessors' Office I established that at current rates the property would be taxed at approximately fifty five cents per dollar. The rates obviously can go up and normally do as all know but using the current fifty five cents per dollar and applying that to the $16,250 assessment I estimated the taxes at $8,938. which we can comfortably round to $9,000. You will recall that the estimate given last month was $7,500 that resulted from a miscommunication between myself and the Assessor. I understood at that time that the rate was forty five.cents on the dollar and I've verified since that it is in fact fifty five cents. So that the property taxes then which is not to say all the taxes generated by the operation, but the real Page 16 -April 5, 2991 Public Hear - McDonald's Corporation Southoid Z.B.A. MR BARNES, cont'd: estate taxes per say, I would estimate would be $9,000. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Mr. Barnes. MR BAP/NES: Thank you. MR MINEO: Mr. Chairman I have two other speakers to very briefly address the Board on certain things that have happened since the last public meeting that I think the Board should be aware of. Mr. Dunn will discuss a letter that he received from the state and Mr. Feldman can very briefly explain to the Board, a Health Department approval that's been Obtained. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. MR DUNN: Good evening Mr. Chairman, Members of the Board. I've just handed him a copy of the letter dated March 13, · 1991, which you should have a copy already it was sent to the town to Vaterie Scopaz by the New York State Department of Transportation, it was address to my office and it presents comments on the traffic impact study that we presented and discussed at the last hearing. Essentially i Would just like to take a couple of minutes of your time to run through each one of the comments and to relate to you some of the discussions we've had with members of the New York State Department of Transportation traffic and safety group which really complies or responds. We are holding up a formal response until we go through the hearing process with the town. The first comment relates to, why did you collect data at the intersection of Laurel Lake Drive at Route 25 and essentially the reason that we do it's a standard practice. We go one intersection to the east and west of the site. In this case we wanted to go through with the important traffic. We were aware of the municipal ball field and the park area on the north side of 25 that related to a possible intense use at different times. So that during the sum~er time we collected data at that intersection, we analyzed the data at that intersection and we entered traffic from the proposed McDonalds generated by the different hours and concluded that it would have no problems with operation at that intersection with the additional McDonald's traffic. More or less we collected that data to assure ourselves that we were doing the right procedures and right process and was not missing anything that was pertinent to the studies. The second comment that relates to the fact that the westerly, refers to the section to the west, the Bray Ave, Old Main Road the question, why utilize this for one lane approach a north bound direction since Old Main Road.comes in on an angle and Page 17 April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR DUNN, cont'd: it creates a wide open intersection and essentially we used the worst case examination of a one lane operation in a north bound direction, it's not striped for anything but one lane, but ii it were to be striped we would then analyze it perhaps with a separate left and separate right turn lane. In this case we show that the worst case analysis would handle the traffic that was being generated by the site as well as existing traffic flow. Also we might note that the traffic coming from Old Main Road from that lag is very light and our counts confirm that. The third comment relates to the site plan, it was presented to the state and it shows that there is a driveway connection out into Old Main Road on the south side of the site and the state says that's nice we would like to have that as an access point and what we've said to them in our discussions that we've been working closely with the town and we set that up as emergency access only and we don't feel it's in the best interest of the community and the operations in traffic at the adjacent intersections to allow full access to that site from the south. So we believe we are conforming to the desires of the town in that. The fourth comment related to when we went over and analyzed the intersection to the east of Sigsbee Road factory, we did not have the considerable amount of traffic~ there was no traffic coming from the south and north bound direction on Sigsbee and what we told them predominantly is yes there is existing traffic we've added into it but we have not, we do not expect a large portion of traffic heading north from the residential areas of the south. But to make sure that we are addressing the point fully, we've asked the state to select a number, a percentage that they feel, that they would feel comfortable with, with analyzing from the south and we analyze the intersection. Again, we feel certain that with the amount of traffic that would be generated in that direction would be minor and it would not create a major problem with the intersection operations. The fifth co~ent on the second page relates to the states request for a west bound to south bound left turn lane at the entrance driveway to the site and they are asking us to install it as part of the project and we've referred this comment to apply at McDonalds. We also noted with our discussions to the state that there are no other separate left turn lanes in the area. When the North Fork Bank building went in there was no left turn lanes there, at the adjacent shopping centers further to the west there are no separate left turns but obviously we 5re going to have to satisfy the New York State D.O.T. and they are going to get what they want. The rest of the letter just relates'to additional information that they would like to see on the site plan which is not out of the ordinary. Generally when you submit the traffic impact study it's at a preliminary Page 18 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southotd Z.B.A. ~R DUI~N, cont'd: stage. Often times with the site plan they are going to be requesting that we incorporate additional information so that they can be sure that the range does not go out onto the state roadway. That we contain all the run off on the site. Now that we indicate the features that they have presented in the letter. They will also show the sketch to show how we should have a beefed up pavement in the area of the access point so it can carry the traffic from the road way with out breaking down the shoulder and the roadway and obviously we'll conform to that, we have to in order to get the permit. So in a nutshell that directs in response to the permit the state has and we just wanted to bring that to the attention of the Board that we're happy we finally got a lettei from the state. CHAIRMA/q GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Thank you very much. MR FELE~LAN: Stephen Feldman from Raymond F. Feldman A.I.A. office 570 Broadway, Amityville, NY, project architect. I must apologize the last time I was here it didn't click that new Board Member Robert villa is the Robert Villa. He further faked me out by saying he's the new kid on the block. Mr. Villa has been the head of the Suffolk County Health Department longer than I've been an architect. I have obviously a tremendous respect for Mr. Villa so we went back and stepped up our efforts to make sure that the Suffolk County Health Dapartment is satisfied with our sanitary design for this system and I'm pleased to say tonight that we have received the approval from the Suffolk County Health Department and is given as a photocopy to this Board at this time. CHAIRMAN GOEMRINGER: Thank you Mr. Feldman. MR FELDMAN: That's just a stamp that's affixed to the plan. MR MINEO: Mr. Chairman, that compteues our presentation if the Board has any questions for any of us of course we'll hold ourselves available or answer questions from anybody else this evening. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to ask you for two things. We received a nine to twelve page letter from your firm. MR MINEO: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Citing twenty cases. MR MINEO: I didn't count them but perhaps. Page 19 April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEPLRINGER: Somewhere. MR MINEO: It's approximately that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. I was wondering if you could ask someone in your office to kindly photograph the cases for us so that we might have them and send them to us so that we know exactly what the decisions were. I know that certain, there were certain excerpts mentioned in the letter concerning the cases. I realize this is no easy task, it's going to take a little while, but we would appreciate that. MR MINEO: I'll be happy to do that. CHAIRMAN GOEHI{INGER: Secondly. MR ARNOFF, TOWN ATTORNEY: Could you send a copy of that to me also along with it. MR MINEO: Absolutely. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We would be very happy to. Secondly, I do appreciate the revised site plan. I have visited approximately twenty two McDonalds on the north and south shore. AUDIENCE: Could you be a little more caring please, right into the old mike. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This system has never been the greatest and I apologize, t have visited twenty two sites and I have all intentions of visiting many more before this hearing is concluded and I do see a serious void in the existing site plan and it's a void that I at this particular time, have not necessarily mentioned ~o my Board Members, I did mention to them that I did see a serious void. I know that you have worked very very closely with the Planning Board and at the conclusion of this hearing tonight that I will make a recommendation to this Board to send the site plan back to the Planning Board. It may necessitate a meeting with them and us to discuss the specific void. I can tell you briefly I can sketch briefly what my feelings are concerning it. I think we'll wait until after' the comment portion of the thing. In other words I'm not trying to drop anything on you. I'm trying to tell you up front, that's a particular problem that I have. I think you people have done a splendid job in reference to the over all architectual you know agreements that have come to be concerning this building. However, the site plan is something that needs some further addressing and I'll discuss that in a Page 20 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: symmetrical matter at the end of the hearing and we thank you for your presentation and we will continue with the hearing and any rebuttal you'd like to discuss. Okay. The only thing I would like to do before we start is to allow everybody to take a look at the new site plan so we'll take approximately a three minute recess. Let everybody take a look at it. We'll have two copies, you have the easel copy and we'll leave this copy down below and we'll regroup here in about three to five minutes. Gentlemen, I need a motion on that. All in Favor - AYE. 8:15 to 8:25 Temporary Break. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need a motion ~o reconvene, Gentlemen. ,All in Favor - AYE. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Mineo, I'm sorry I didn't mean to barge in on a conversation, it appears that there are some questions that the Board has before we would like to proceed with the public. MR MINEO: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEPLRINGER: Mr. Villa? MEMBER VILLA: Yes I have some general questions that I would just like clarified. (UNIDENTIFIED): Would you use the microphone please? MEMBER VILLA: We'll give it a try. I have some general questions I would like, you know you are talking about the fact that it's going to be an impact or an economic impact to the town. Who will be building the building? I know you are not going to own it, you are going to lease. Is it going to be a local contractor, do you pull in a contract from outside or what? MR ANNABEL: McDonalds uses general contractors, typically. We'll hire a general contractor to build the resuaurant and then they are pre~y much free to use who they wan~ typically. Now, in discussions early on here with the Chamber of Commerce we told them that we were going to try to do everything we could to get local people involved. We may not use, we may use a general contractor that we're familiar with who is not from Southold Town, but we can impose on him Page 21 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR ANNABEL, cont'd: to use local sub-contractors. So that's really, none of that has really been figured out yeti but I would say to you that we would make every effort tO use local people if they met all of our other qualifications. MEMBER VILLA: Thank you. Another question I have is, you are talking about the drive-in use and you say 40% of the 1,300 car trips would use the drive-through window, but I noticed in the testimony that we had at the first hearing, Mr. Dunn stated that occasionally you see once you get a stack up of cars in the line, that mostpeople would then look at it and figure it is quicker to go inside; would park; get out; and go into the building. I would like to know of that 40% that you estimated would use the drive-in window, if you didn't have one how many of those people would still stop at McDonald[s? MR ANNABEL: A large number of these people would not stop at McDonalds if these was not a drive-through window. And that number could be anywhere from 20 to 30 percent. Every store would react a little different, but McDonalds has done studies to show that gross sales would decrease by anywhere from20 to 30 percent without a drive-through window and that in itself is what makes the drive-throu~n window an essential part of the business for us. MEMBER VILLA: That probably would be predominantly where you have competition though with other restaurants with drive-in windows where they could go to somebody else. Here you are ~ot going to have any competition, so, you still think it would be that big a number? MR ANNABEL: I really, that's a good question, I don,t know what the perimeters of that study were. I really can't answer that. I could find out. MEMBER VILLA: Okay. Thank you. Another big concern I have is garbage disposal. Now I know McDonalds has been talking about recycling styrofoam which I heard recently that they are going out of that project and converting back to paper. Now is that the case? The tonnage of waste will probably go up because paper weighs more than styrofoam. I would like to know how you are going to address the refuse disposal problem? MR MINEO: Mr. Villa, I'm asking Randy Bogg from McDonald's operations to address that question. MEMBERVILLA: Fine. Page 22 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR BOGG: Like you said, we are getting out of polystyrene. We will probably for McDonalds that you knew years ago, we'll reduce that by 90%. As I said last time, we recycle, will recycle at this site for sure. All the cardboard, that makes up about 35 to 50 percent of our waste stream. MEMBER VILLA: Are you recycling cardboard in Riverhead? MR BOGG: We will begin this month. MEMBER VILLA: You are not recycling anything in Riverhead? MR BOGG: We were recycling polystyrene right now. MEMBER VILLA: Because the reason I ask that is you know your own numbers came out that you are generating about a ton a day of waste disposal in Riverhead. MR BOGG: That's right. MEMBER VILLA: Now I was just wondering how much of that you are going to be left with, even after recycling. As you know we are facing a big problem out here and we don~t need more garbage unfortunately. MR BOGG: We'll reduce by recycling cardboard, our waste stream by about 40 to 50 percent. So what we have now will be reduced in half, will cut in half. MEMBER VILLA: So you are still going to be talking about at least a half a ton a day going through a waste disposal site. MR BOGG: That's right. MEMBER VILLA: Now is that kind of a cost factored into your operations of a business. I mean cost is going up and I'm wondering~ this certainly isn't going to be one of your busiest stores and I don't know what kind of margin you work on but, you are going to need, you know you could be spending upwards of $100 a day on refuse disposal. Is that something you factor in a? MR BOGG: Absolutely. MEMBER VILLA: Now I also have heard, when we are talking about employment, you are talking about employing 67 workers and 8 managerial people. I've heard people say that.actually in the Riverhead units, they can't find enough people and they are actually bringing people in from Middle Island or further back west to staff those stores. Is that true? Page 23 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR BOGG: That was, I'm a consultant for the Riverhead stores, that was true in the past, with the economy the way the way it is we're able to staff with local people right now. We have no, we wer~ busing people in from Coram, as a matter of fact. MEMBER VILLA: You were or you are? MR BOGG: We were. We are no longer for the two Riverhead sites. MEMBER VILLA: I was just curious, you know, were busing people in, the moneys not staying in the local community which is what you are abdicating. MR BOGG: Yes that's correct. MEMBER VILLA: In your economic study. CHAIRMA~ GOEHRINGER: Could t just say something. For the record that was Mr. Bogg speaking. Go ahead. MEMBER VILLA: Another, just a quick question. What fuel are you going to use at this site, oil, gas or what? MR A~{NABEL: It will be propane. MEMBER VILLA: Propane. You are going to have a large propane tank buried or above grade? MB ANNABEL:. Buried would be our chose, yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again for the record, this was Mr. Annabel speaking. MEMBER VILLA: Alright basically that's most of my questions. The only other thing I noticed, that in the code we say that you are suppose to eat drive-in restaurant is to be either consumed in the restaurant or in a designated eating area. I didn't see anything on the site plan as a designated eating area. Just assuming you are going to eat in the car? MR MINEO: My suggestion would be this. I have addressed that in the letter. It's Mr. DiConza letter~ Mr. DiConza is an attorney from my office. We address the legal status as was requested by one of the other Board Members at the last meeting. And the answer is this: In terms of the operation, there is no proposal for customers of McDonalds to eat outside of the building, either at an out door setting area with tables and chairs or in their cars. The proposal is Page 24 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR MINEO, cont'd: purely and simply for either consumption of food within the restaurant or to take out off premises, so that there is no confusion at this point. Your code is pretty clear that what a drive-in contemplates is service outside of the building, consumption outside of the building. We site three cases to that effect. Talking out the distinctions between drive-ins and other types of restaurants. Now, those restaurants where you see carhop services and things of that nature are somewhat dinosaurs today. McDonalds does not have that type of an operation, but what it does have under your terminology, code terminology is a fast food restaurant and the drive-through window, not a special use, not a special exception rather, but it's merely a component a way of doing business for the carry out of food for consumption off premises. I think that's an important distinction, I know that's what you were eluding to last month, Mr. Dinizio and we've attempted to address that in our memorandum of law and when we get those cases to the Board Merabers, by the way did you want six sets or five sets or would one'set be enough? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Six would be great. MR MINEO: Okay. Six it is. So that you can see this, but drive-in restaurants are an acronym your code refers, there is some language about car hop parking lot service but we don't intend that. MEMBER VILLA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that it? Okay. We spent several hours going through the text of the last hearing and everybody did an excellent job except that we didn't know who was speaking and so we are again asking you and we will supply again a list after you tell us who you are. What you would like to say and then we will again ask you to sign in. And I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop everybody again the first thing that I will be asking you just as if you were sworn in in a court of law would be you would state your name. We are not asking for addresses. The addresses will be reduced to writing after the statement is made. We also would ask any persons that were not necessarily here at the last hearing or persons where questions were generated at the last hearing to speak first and I think I'll start with my right and your left since we started on the opposite side this last time and the ground rules are somewhat different in the respect that we discuss those persons speaking for and those persons speaking against. Not necessarily in any one particular order. I will start with this side of the room. I ask you to please use the mike and state your name, we also Page 25 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southotd Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: have a tremendous problem with applauses picking it up with this system and it causes a tremendous problem with the person that's recording it, so I would ask you to please, that's why y~u had seen me cup it the last time. I will continue to do that but I ask you to please restrict the applauses to a specific volume. Or no volume at all. We:ll start with my right, is. there anybody who would like to speak on the west side of the hal! concerning this application? Yes mam? MRS BYERLINES: My name is Clara Byerlines, I'm a resident of Southold. We have a number of restaurants currently in town pizza shops and also restaurants who do a busy take out business. They seem to have no need for a drive-through service and can function perfectly well as I wonder why McDonalds puts such an emphasis on having this portion of their service. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you mam. Mam, could I ask you to sign in please? You can move that to this side so you're no~ in the way there. Thank you. Does anybody want to address that before we continue? MR MINEO: Perhaps, just one observation. I think Mr. Annabel had addressed earlier about why McDonalds uses this method of doing business, but the area which the speaker was discussing might have been a hamlet area or zoning district in which drive-in restaurants are specifically prohibited. So, that might be one of the reasons. I'm not sure what zoning district she's referring to, she did not identify. But the hamlet, marine II specifically exclude drive-ins. But in addition as we pointed out it's a method of doing business that most restaurants of this type quick service, fast foodt call them what you will, utilize. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else over on this side of the room who would like to speak? On the west side. Yes, mam? MS SCOGGINS: My name is Shelly Scoggins, I just have a question about the right hand turn lane and the left hand turn lane. Are these lane going to come out of the same width of the existing road that we have? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the record Mr. Dunn is going to address that question. MR DUNN: Essentially what the state will make us do is to widen the roadway to accommodate the left turn lane. That would mean we are widening the pavement area, but not necessarily taking property. It will be within the existing Page 26 - April 5~ 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation S~uthotd Z.B.A. MR DUNN: the. right of way area. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is there anybody like in the center of the room like to speak? Yes? I'm sorry. MS NORTHAM: Good evening. My name is Johanna Northam. I'm a member of the solid waste task force. There were some questions answered before but I'll go through my statement. As part of the solid waste plan for the Town of Southold, a comprehensive recycling analysis was included to comply with the state mandate in the solid waste management act of 1988. The Town's 75% reduction, reuse, and recycling goals are outlined in this report. In light of this effort ~o reduce 75% of the waste stream it is important to address the amoun~ of non-recyclable garbage that would be generated from McDonald's complex. Another important issue that must be addressed is the potential litter problem that would be caused by serving customers at a drive-through window. The Town of Southold is a rural community, coping with garbage disposal costs and iitter problems, so I question additional commercial waste being added to an expensive solid waste problem. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOEPIRINGER: Thank you mam. MS BERKS: Dorothy Berks of Orient. I'm a Board Member of the North Fork Environmental Council. There seems to be something so realistic about all of this heavy artillery deciding that people should be able stay in a car to get their food. We go into a store to buy our food; we go into restaurants and I don't know why a business should be predicated on people who can't get out of their cars. But that not withstanding, how long does it take for one of these transactions to be completed and how much exhaust i's let into the air? I think we have a rule about idling, some sort of law about three minutes idling. We are not talking about the Long Island Expressway where people are trapped. We are talking about people who voluntarily sit in their car and let the motor run while they are waiting for someone to bring them food. And I think that right now with the energy situation the way it is, with the ozone layer tracking, I think there is something rather unhealthy about enabling this type of thing. McDonalds has been in the forefront of taking animal fat out of food and taking plastics out of packaging and it would be nice instead of retro-fitting buildings if they started a movement to stop all drive-ins. Just one other thing. I don't know if there are any numbers of where the 40% pack of packages that drive away and but I would be willing to bet that a lot of it lands on our highways. Page 27 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the record again, Mr. Dunn is going to speak. MR DUNN: McDonalds has been concerned about that, at other locations too,~ besides Mattituck and we've done a number of studies. A recent study in terms of air quality analysis was done at the New Hyde Park site in Nassau County and a specific air quality study was done to examine the contribution of emissions to the air quality and specifically these studies that were done showed that it met the one hour and eight hour requirements of the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation and it met all the Federal standards also for the air quality studies. What we've'shown also is there is a difference when vehicles are waiting in line for the emissions versus a cold start. So there are factors that we took into consideration and we would be happy to ~give you any additional information from the New Hyde Park study that you examine the contributions of the vehicles on the q and y.. We've also shown that at a nun~ber of locations, the primary source of air pollution is from the adjacent traffic that exists on the roadway not parked. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You will give us copies, additional copies? MR DUNN: We'll be happy to give you a copy of the whole report if you like. CHAIRMAN GOEHI~INGER: Great. Surely. Thank you. MEMBER VILLA: If they've done the study, about what is the average length of time a car sits there waiting for a service? MR DUNN: Okay. We've done a, it's two minutes would be a figure that the McDonalds has been using which recognizes. time it'enters the line to the time it parks. We've also tried to break down some of our studies from the time it enters the line till it reaches the speaker, to the time it goes from the speaker to go over to the pick up area and we have shown it pretty much the two minutes to three minutes is a maximum that occurs which means that it is able to accommodate the numbers of traffic that we have presented in our report for the percentages that you quoted before Mr. Villa. So it can be accommodated and it is realistic and their operation has been enhanced in some locations where they add another booth where you pay at the first booth. After you order you go to the first booth to pay and go to the next one and pick up. So it is quite an efficient Page 28 - ~pril 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR DUNN, cont'd: operation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Mr. Dunn. Yes, mam? MRS LEVY: I'm Ellen Ruth Levy from Orient. I'm confused about the recycling. You are changing to paper but a lot of paper produces really can't be recycled, because of the ink on them and because they are plastic lined, so we are still adding a lot more garbage and how are you going to get rid of it? I mean, what, how is it all going to be handled? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just sign in please. The issue basically and correct me if I'm wrong is will there be any recycling of paper? We're only recycling polystyrene at this time° MRS LEVY: No, it's a plastic and paper combined you can't recycle. You cannot recycle it. CHAIrmAN GOEHRINGER: Will there be any paper recycled? (MCDONALDS): There are plans. Obviously McDonalds is aware of ..... CHAIPd~AN GOEHRINGER: Just state your name again for the record I apologize. MR BOGG: Right now of course as a corporation we are concerned with this. It comes up all over the country. We are using right now recycled bags for take out orders. As I'm speaking I'm sure there are people developing new paper products, like I said recycled bags, some of the sandwich wraps have changed within the last-month and they will continue to do so, so that we will be able to recycle. I don't know when I can't tell you exactly what it is. I'm non an expert on that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to admit that this hearing has not only made me an insomniac. I've probably have gained four pounds going in McDonalds at lunchtime. I would not normally admit this okay but I have noticed in my recent purchase of a McDLT which was the largest wrapping that you use to use separating both sides of the hamburger or cheese- burger or whatever that it is now in a cylindrical container, a cardboard container wrapped in a specific piece of paper. I don't know if it's waxed paper or what kind of paper it is. I didn't really look at that particular issue. Is any of that going to be recycled? Can you answer that question? MR BOGG: I can't answer that. Page 29 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MEMBER VILLA: He doesn't know because it is in the formative stage. CHAIRFLAN GOEHRINGER: Okay~~ The cardboard itself that surrounds, you said will be recycled? MR BOGG: That's right. Almost all the products we receive at the back door of our building, a case wrapped in cardboard we recycle that. CHAIP~4AN GOEF~INGER: Will be recycled. Okay. Alright. You will not be doing any separating of any trash that is the residue of the purchases that made out the front door or the drive-up if its? MR BOGG: I can't say no to that right now, like I said we're working on those kind of things right now. We are going to recycle, all our buns come in plastic, we will begin recycling that plastic, the light plastic. But we are working on all those things. CHAIPJ~A~ GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Yes. For the record that was Mr. Bogg. Could you just state your name for the record. MR WEBSTER: Tom Webster~ CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do? MR WEBSTER: I would just, I'm from Davidoff and Maledo Consulting Company. Eagle Associates. I would just really like to for information purposes_let people referring here to a New York Times article dated August 9, 1990 and at that time, this was when it was announced that McDonalds has entered into an agreement with the Environmental Defense fund to undertake a study of its operations with intent of reducing the amount of garbage that is currently dumped into the landfills and much of the what you've seen in terms of the changes in the packaging, you know some of the early results of that agreement and I think we expect to see more forthcoming. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I believe the gentleman down here and then we will go to the lady in the back. Yes, sir? Again, state your name for the record. MR LOWRY: My name is Tom Lowry, I'm from New Suffolk. I was raised in this small town, I spent many years in New York City, but I'm a small town guy again. And I must confess to feeling uneasy when battalions of made flannel suits confront us with words like retro-fit and I feel as though something Page 30 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. ~R LOWRY, cont'd: is going in between my ribs and I don't like it. That's my comment. My question Is a s~mple one, I would like members of the Zoning Board to address Warren Goldsteins letter or editorial of last weeks issue. Saying in essence that the future which we are all debating so heartily here tonight is already outlined or the problem has a solution already outlined in the town code. Would you address that question please? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think I will at this time, possibly by£the end of this hearing I may. I'll discuss it with counsel at the next break and we'll go from there. Okay Mr. Lowry. Could I just ask you to sign in, but I don't want you t8 think that I'm skirting the issue, I assure you. MR LOWRY: You are skirting the issue, but I can't do anything about it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well what would you like me say about this? What would you like me to say? MR LOWRY: I would like you to say that Warren is right, whether Warren is wrong. You sound like a Republican, Hedging about the curds and ( ) has been. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to be perfectly honest with you. I sat up here the last time and I told you, I told all of you, and I read a statement from Gail Schafer's office, what-a special exceptlon is and what my opinion a special exception is. I am continulng the investigation of the standards. At the culmination of this hearing tonight you will see what my basic problem is at this time and that is sir the internal flow of the site plan. I will not go any further with the discussion in reference to this particular situation until the site plan is cleaned up. It will have to go back to the Planning Board to have that done. We will then come back. As the process of this particular hearing will continue, I will continue to stay abreast of what's going on in the paper and so on and so forth. And at that particular time at the complete, the absolute complete end of this hearing, I will still give you my opinion. I do not drop any specific statements usually during the hearing or I don't usually stop the hearing and say I can't continue or whatever the situation might be. I have to continue to disseminate information and I'm going to continue to do that until the hearing is complete. It will not be complete tonight. So you got to give me a little time. ~--~ LOW~Y: My response is. Thank you for being as honest as you feel you can afford to be. Page 31 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southotd Z.B.A. MR ARNOFF~ TOWN ATTORNEY: Mr. Lowry, I think I should comment on that, on what you said to some degree. I think it would be inappropriat~ from the Chairman of this committee to give his opinion at this particular time. Certainly, it might tend to influence the other Members inappropriately before all testimony is in and to ask for an opinion on a pending application at this point and its interpretation of law as it applies to it I think would be inappropriate. That's my op±n~on as counsel and if we took a break that's what I would tell Mr. Goehringer. MR LOWRY: Thank you for being as lawyerly as you have been. MR AP~OFF: I can see your frustration, but unfortunately our processes require certain rights. They have rights and you have rights and everyone's rights will be addressed and will be addressed strictly in accordance with the law and I think that perhaps and there was a case and would be glad to give you the cite, but I can't find it right now. That if he does · give his opinion Mr. Goehringer could in fact be precluded from ultimately voting on this appiication'and that might not be what you want or might not be what McDonalds wants. MR LOWRY: You must understand that those of us who have strong feelings are impatient about such things. MR ARNOFF: I understand that there are many members in the community who are exercised by this particular application. I think it's obvious if one just looks around the room. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The gentleman in the blue sweater in the rear. Yes, sir? MR CO~O: My name is Mike Commando. My question, I have a few questions, I wanted to ask you Mr. Annabel, regarding the drive-up situation, the latest technology is to wear headsets and use remote control device or remote system to pick up the conversation. What frequencies are they set at? MR ANNABEL: I have that information somewhere on me. I could try to find it in the next five or ten minutes. MR COSIMANDO: Could you tell me if it's am or fm? MR ANNABEL: I don't know off hand. MR COMMANDO: Is it possible that these conversations could interfere with residents radios or televisions? Or cordless telephones? Page 32 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR ANNABEL: I don't know the answer to that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr~ Commando, again this hearing will not be concluded tonight. I'm sure he can get us that information. MR COMMANDO: I was asking the questions and he can get the answers back to me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. No problem. MR COMMANDO: My other question is who is going to own this store? CHAIPA~kN GOEHRINGER: I think we established that before, we did not establish this? MR ANNABEL: The store will be licensed to a independent business person, entrepreneur, whatever you wan~ to call it. Normally the people who run the stores live in the community or near by. They're independent opera~ors. MR COMMANDO: Can I ask another question then? CHAIRMAN GOF2{RINGER: Could I just finish this conclusion? MR ANNABEL: Mr. Chairman~ no operator has ye~ been assigned to this particular. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just ask you a question concerning that since you brought this up. Again let the record state that again that answer was done by Mr. Annabel. Is there a specific list that McDonalds has of people, would it be offered to other people that own stores in the immediate area or in Suffolk County or how, is there a priority list? MR ANNABEL: There is a list, called a registered applicants list that is basically a system wide, a country wide list of applicants, of course the operators, the franchisees or business people who go into our stores tend to be local people. It's very unusual for somebody from California to want to come to Long Island ~o operate a store. It's more common that it would be somebody from Suffolk County who lives in the area and who wants to stay in the area, but there is such a list I'm not privy to it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And there is also a great possibility that some people own more than one store. Page 33 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR ANNABEL: That's a possibility. I can just tell you though that the trend in this area, in the New York area has been uo license stores to new first store operators. That has been the trend over the~past three to four years. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know if that answered your question. MR COMMANDO: That does. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Mr. Annabel. Again in the center. Lady in the back. MS HUNTINGTON: My name is Mary Ann Huntington and I live in Cutchogue and in addition to my reservations about the light, noise, traffic affluence, water, demands on our water, and our waste managemenu I would like to answer that lady who wondered what happens to some of the take ou=. I plucked this from one of the nature trails in the Hampton Hills area in Riverhead, it does say it's a good news bag and it is starting to decompose, it's very obvious with the help of some I suspect° I want to punctuate my comment with this idea, which is not a McDonald's item but never the less and it's called the sign of the times and this is a real concern of everybody. CHAIRFakN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Yes, mam? MS BEER: My name is Cynthia Beer, I live in Orient. I am a member of the Orient Association traffic relief committee. I was very unsettled by hearing Mr. Dunn's comment about adding a traffic lane to Route 25 or any kind of turning lane, widening the road at that point. Fearing that this might become a precedent as our narrow environment between water on both sides gets more and more squeezed as a traffic corridor. I'm sure you are familiar with Cross Sound Ferry having added additional automobile space on its boat and that the traffic flow now is very very heavy and very tragic community. I would also like to mention that phrases such as every effort can be made or will be made and phrases such as their plans are very unsettling to those of us who have a lot of experience dealing with the kinds of things that have happened to our environment over the last thirty years since I've been a residenu here. I would like also to mention that perhaps the $9,000 in property tax might be balanced against as we progress in the future what will be lost by people moving away from this community as the quality of life in our town changes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Page 34 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.BoA. MR DUNN: In relation to the provisions of the left turn lane. I want ~o make it clear that one, we are not proposing any widening of for addition of a through lane in either direction as part of our project. Furthermore, it's part of our traffic impact study, we did not recommend the addition of a left t~rn lane. New York State Department of Transportation was requesting consideration here for an installation of a left turn lane. What we would like to mention here is that it~is very important to recognize that we are concerned with maintaining the rural aspect of INTERFERENCE in terms of the highway structure and if it was a desire of the Town of Southold to go along with McDonalds and myself to the New York State D.O.T. to say we don't want~a left turn lane in this area we would be happy to go with you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Dunn, could you just claar this up for me. Could you tell me exactly what you are anticipating then if you are saying you are going to do it in the existing right of way or what we refer to as taking area. MR DUNN: Essentially, the section of Route 25 in front of the s~f~--~s one lane in each direction. I believe it was one old concrete panel which may have been resurfaced, so we are talking about somewhere between eleven and twelve foot wide, travel lane in each direction. Then beyond that there is a varying shoulder width. The state can make us do is to dig up part of the shoulder area, re-spray paint it so its full depth-asphalt so it will be a depth to accept a riding vehicle over it without breaking it up. Then we would have to restripe the roadway to accommodate a left turn lane in the middle, that's separating the two directions of traffic. That left turn lane will help enhance the efficiency of people getting in the site by giving a separate lane. What we are saying here again is that if you look along the entire stretch from Route 25 there are no other left turn lanes in the vicinity of the site based upon even the addition of the North Fork Bank Offices, the additional new buildings adjacent to the site or to the west on the north side and then to the east on the south side. The existing shopping centers farther to the west in Mattituck do not have separate left turn lanes at the intersections or at the driveways and they generate a substantial more traffic than a McDonalds during peak hours of operation. So we think that there is a means that you could go to the state and have a good argument and we'll leave that in the hands of the Board of the Town of Southold.. CHAIRMAN GOEPiRINGER: Let me understand this again. Going in a westerly direction, making a left turn into the proposed Page 35 - kpril 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: site, you would be widening the shoulder across the street as well as widening the shoulder in front of the.. MR DUNN: It could be another way. It could be done on both sides of the road. Most likely it would be on both sides of the road. It could also be done just on the south side of the road. The state would have the perogative of determining do we widen the roadway to provide this ten or eleven foot left turn lane or do we utilize some of the shoulder area and reduce the shoulder area on one side, so that we may not have to widen the pavement area. But we would be realigning the roadway to accon~uodate the addition of a left turn lane in the middle of the roadway. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Mr. Dunn. MR MINEO: May I just point out one thing, Mr. Chairman. In addition to discussing this matter with New York State . Department of Transportation, it would also be necessary to modify the negative declaration issued by the Planning Board. The Planning Board at page 2 of its negative declaration states: the applicant has completed a traffic impact study which demonstrates that the project is not likely to have an undo burden on the road transportation system of the immediate area. The traffic impacts can be mitigated by the installation of roadway modifications such as but not limited to turning lanes, strengthen shoulders and deceleration. So it's not only D.O.T. but also the Planning Board as well. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am aware of that and this again another situation that would have to be readdressed back in the site plan area because when we send this back we would like it back in its finished form. I understand that. I know SEQRA would have to be readdressed. Thank you for mentioning · it. The gentleman over here in the center had had his hand up before so we'll move to east side of the building. Would you like to speak sir? MR MCKAY: My name is Joseph McKay and I am a Board Member of the New Suffolk Civic Association. CHAIRMAN GOEPSqINGER: How do you do? MR MCKAY: I would like to say first of all that personally I think that a lot of the things that McDonalds has done over the years in other places have been very commendable and I think that their leadership in many areas has been really terrific. Having said that I would.like to make sure that Page 36 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald,s Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR MCKAY, cont'd: all. the representatives of McDonalds don't tell Mr. McDonald not to take anything else I say personally~ But I think that the question that we are here to discuss tonight is about character and I would like to urge the Board to turn down the special exception based on the issue of character. It seems to me that Southold Town is a town that still is tuned into nature and not tuned into technology. I think a very very good example of that is what we've done over the course of the past year to reseed the bay with scallops and this year 1991 we expect a bumper crop and two years ago people said it absolutely could not be done. We are tuned into nature out here. We figured out how we might continue agriculture when potatoes were becoming a problem and we've gone to grapes and prevails. At the ~opposite end of the spectrum is a place like New York City where I come from. A friend of mine who works for the M.T.A. recently told me that he was part of a panel to hear complains about the conductors use of the speakers in the subways. How many people use the subways in New York City? And when people raise their hands at a hearing to talk about complaints that the speakers are too loud and they were really ~ust problems they made riding the subway very very unpleasant. The complaints were handled based on a premise that the character of New York City is such that crime is so bad that the annoyance of the noise is small compared to the benefit that it provides in making criminals constantly aware of the presence of authority. Well you know that's the character of New York City and complaints and decisions are based on that character. I think character is something that we ought to think about. Just what is the character of this place right now? It's something that changes little by little and it becomes the premise for other decisions that get made in the future. Por example widening roads, once the road is widened and once this happens than the character of the place changes just a little bit so that the next time we have a decision to make based on character of town it's based on a slightly different character than it was before. So I would like to urge the Board to turn down this special exception based on the character of this town. I think it's possible for us to evolve without changing our character. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you sir. There is a gentleman in front of you first. Sir, would you like to speak? Yes you, I hate to point to people, but you'll be next. MR CALLAHAN: I was on the wrong side of the room when you chose other sides. My name is Pat Callahan, I'm going to be a resident of Mattituck pretty soon, we're going to build a house on Depot Creek. We've been in New Suffolk for thirty years as part time summer residents. I'd like to first just Page 37 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald' s Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR CALLAHAN, cont'd: read some written, some comments that I have and then if it would be acceptable, it's kind of we have a little joint venture here with Linda Fletcher and Nancy Sawastynowicz. Again I'm a~professiona! engineer in traffic and I've had lots of experience, well over thirty years and so on, tn planning, environmental, and traffic, a member of the I.T.E. who we will hear and we're I'd just like to comment first on the study, on the Dunn traffic study. I think there's actually it's a very study. The over all report again in supplement writes a very creditable picture of the potential impacts of the fast food chain restaurant. I believe it adequately addresses safety, grade, site distance, took into account all the technical things that we do in our business. I would call question to a few things. The percentage of 7.3% with respect to the peak hour of utilization of the drive-through, I would just not even to be answered tonight, but I would suggest that that.be relooked at since that impacts on the total volnm, e in and out in accordance with the projection methodology. But tonight we heard in comment with ~espect to a two minute service time and if I recollect correct, in the report it was mentioned that a queue of eight vehicles was on line waiting at the drive-through. Now if you take, I think there's thirty two minute segments in an hour so that in essence would kind of represent at a ~wo minute service rate a 240 vehicles per hour, so t think that may be subsequently different but I'm' sure it's not that much, but it may be about half that or again maybe it would deserve a little test because I think that the McDonald's data was kind of a nation wide data and probably not applicable here. I think it just should be looked at. Not a major point, but should be looked at. Now what seems to be very conspicuously absent from the report I find is any meaningful discussion of the cumulative impact. What do I mean by that? This, you folks are reviewing the McDonald's proposal but it's really in essence it's a whole hocks of other proposals which will certainly be on their way, we'll address that more specifically later. Again, I say the a, take into account the parallel additional similar fast food chain restaurants near by. I say I would just like to point out there are numerous locations along Route 25 which are highly susceptible to being developed. So now we're looking at this one, it's a rather handsome building, but it's more then that building that we are looking at and it kind of ties in with the common respect of the character of the area. We're going to see these little places popping up all over the place. At now, again, as we know it's most unlikely that we find a single stand alone, fast food chain restaurant like McDonalds without also finding a Burger King, a Roy Rogers, a Wendys and a Pizza Hut at its side. But you have to deal with that and wouldn't, necessarily want to be at Page 38 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR CALLAHAN~ cont'd: your response~ it's a hard thing to deal with, I recognize that and respect it. Another concern with respect to the traffic study is the lack of projection of traffic volumes with th~ traffic increase on Route 25. The report only addresses current traffic and ignores future projects, I think, unless I missed that in some place in the report. Now, again I would respectfully recommend that the Board require McDonalds to focus on the cumulative impact and the projected traffic volume increases. I don't kn~w either in the Town of Southold, and I want to look a little closer, what is your projected year? What kind of a cycle, what is a planning cycle that you expect the facility to have to be adequately servicing? You would do this, you would design it, water supply you do this if you are designing highways, highways you do this in designing, any utility, any infra- structure, as I say I really do think that they should expand the report to take it into account. Now, someone along that line, I say, I believe some of the conclusion in the traffic report may change if these two factors are taken into account. Specifically, it would appear that a roadway improvements would be needed as, particularly if bypass traffic is maintained. Now, I think something totally independent of that it would seem that the D.O.T. somewhat reached that similar conclusion with respect to the letter that Walter had. Now, all I'm saying is that perhaps it will be other changes, other modifications if in fact one look of the full projected volumes over whatever the acceptable planning cycle and the impact of accumulative~ other developments. Now, I just want to quickly run through the secondary impact of any development has to really truly be considered. McDonatds is they do a very nice job on the building and so on. But they somehow are notorious with respect to their signs. And I just sort of if you would even pass around with the folks that are here, this I would review is probably a typical sign that we may be faced with seeing out here. The other thing I just had the horrible thought driving out tonight. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Call~han, Could I see that first before you pass it. MR CALLAHAN: I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No problem. MR CALLAHAN: The other situation I have a major concern with and it kind of gets to be resident here. The concern is the bridge, the Long Island Railroad bridge over Route 25. If you were McDonalds what would you do with that bridge? The, I would just like to comment another report which was also Page 39 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.BoA. MR CALLAPLAN, cont'd: submitted here and it's kind of totally out of my daily wick but I just kind of perused it. It's the Eagle Associates report, and I just kind of came away with a little, kind of like grinding my teeth a bit. The, in that report it kind of talks about, it implies that we have a myopic view of community needs and we suffer from that not in my backyard syndrome. Well I kind of like, I guess that's true. Like our point of view as expressed by others, it's hard to imagine a McDonalds in Mattituck without imagining other far reaching any good affects. Now again, that's a fine looking building and I'm not kind of like criticizing that, I just think there's more to it when you take the over all picture. And again the Board's job is very difficult and you sure are aware that there are strong feelings and I would just like to close by again, urging that if you could take a cumulative impact and traffic road issues into effect from a SEQRA point of view, with the respect that the fact that the package has to go back to the Planning Board, I think there has to, the North Fork Environmental Council should get council with respect to seeing if you could open up the SEQRA proceedings, because under SEQRA cumulative affects are required to be reviewed and it was involved in your INTERRUPTED BY CLAPPING. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me, if you remember at the conclusion of my last hearing I said that anything that you' refer to that from the public that would be as a matter of discussion here can be reduced to writing and anything that Mr. Dunn would like to answer let's do that for the sake of brevity. MR MINEO: I'm not going to bother the Board now in a discussion of SEQRA and what constitutes cumulative impacts and what a Board is obligated to review cumulative impacts. I would just like to point out a couple of things. First of all, as a negative declaration that's been issued by the lead agency which is the Planning Board. Second of all, cumulative impacts aren't based upon speculation. It's based upon active projects that are also being considered, that are on board. Unless Mr. Callahan can point to those rather than guess at what might occur on into the future then cumulative impacts play no part. I'll address that in a subsequent letter to this Board, actually a memorandum of law in the form of a letter, but I don't want that to, now we're going to carry this and we are going to convert this into a SEQRA hearing. It's clearly not what the intention of this is. SEQRA has already been addressed by the Planning Board and Mr. Callahan eluding to speakers that are yet to come that they in fact are going to talk in terms of cumulative impacts, SEQRA requirements, my suggestion to this Board is Page 40 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR MINEO, cont'd: that their comments are misplaced. Mr. Callahan, I'm sure you've'seen the sign that is proposed for the McDonald's restaurant, it's on the rendering, it was in front of you during your entire presentation. Right here. Now there also will be another detached ground sign. (UNIDENTIFIED): Excuse me, I would like to make a comment. MR MINEO: If I might just complete my presentation~ AUDIENCE:- I would like to make a comment. We did not interrupt while the McDonald's reps were giving their proposals. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I allowed Mr. Mineo to continue. I don't know if you realized that. AUDIENCE: No I didn't. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.' Mr. Callahan walked to the back of the room, I knew that it was a presentation about to ensue. However, I thought for the point of clearing things up as you can see we did go back and forth. I did allow Mr. Mineo to continue. So he didn't do it freely. AUDIENCE: But in the future, when the public comments have to be abutted every time that someone. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not every time. No. MR MINEO: It's not my intention to. I would prefer to sit here and not make any comments whatsoever. But I don't want INTERRUPTION BY CLAPPING. But I don't want the Board and the people that are here this evening to lose sight of what the law is and what this Board is required to do. Cumulative impacts is a and it's being loosely bandied about, I will address that in a memorandum of law, but that should also be born in mind by the speakers that are yet to come if they intend to talk about speculative effects. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR CALLAHAN: If I'm out of order, please tell me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are not out of order. MR CALLAHAN: I don't want to get into the terms of speculation to any great degree, other than you kind of will do have a certain action in one place and a certain mode of operation well than you kind of say well maybe the Page 41 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR CALLAHAN, cont'd: same thing can happen again. And just sort of show, let's consider it a simulation that in our minds eye which is certainly our myopic eye and not in my backyard syndrome mentality, I would like to invite Linda Fletcher oh I'm sorry Nancy. I'm not going to try Nancy's last name again. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sawastynowlcz. MS SAWASTYNOWICZ: Good evening. I did a study on my own and I'm not going to mention the SEQRA process at all thank you. I went to the yellow pages and t looked up all the McDonalds and I got all the fast food restaurants that a~e really close to the McDonalds and I have it for everybody to look at. And I don't want to go to Pudgies or Blimples or Roy Rogers or all the little things they bring along with it. This is for everybody in the audience to look, and it speaks for itself. I don't have to say anything. You can just look at how close some of the addresses are and I did have two questions, when you talked about the noise level, New Hyde Park and Huntington don't even come close to the country of Mattituck and the other thing when they say they are going to recycle forty to fifty percent, they have the wax paper on the cups, I know the mentioning of the ink and t~ just I think we should really address that issue. Thank you very much. CHAIP~LAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MS FLETCHER: I'm the second part. My name is Linda Fletcher and I'm a resident of New Suffolk. I would like to address some of the issues that Nancy was speaking of. Actually they are not issues but they are facts and I would to provide you with a update on the recent developments on Middle Country Road in Ridge. As was mentioned at the last hearing, a new McDonalds opened in Ridge, late in 1990. A conversation last week with a staff member of the Brookt%aven Town Planning Board revealed that the Brookhaven Town Planning Board received an application in December of 1990 for a Taco Bell to be located within one quarter of a mile of the newly arrived McDonalds. A Taco Bell hearing will take place on Monday afternoon of next week. Also of interest is the fact that the two parcels of land on which the fast food restaurants are and could be located are owned by the same company. The company is called M.T.K. Enterprises. At least two of the principals are a man George Lewis and Martin Kosmynka. These two names are found in the copy of the McDonalds lease in the applications file before you. Although the land in Mattituck is as of yesterday recorded as being owned by Cofam Realty it is possible that Mr. Lewis and Mr. Kosmynka are going to lease or ~uy that property from Page 42 - Apr%l 5~ 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS FLETCHER, cont'd: Cofam. The main point being here is that the pattern has already begun in Ridge. The pattern all over Suffolk County is indisputable as Nancy has demonstrated and we have prepared a map to show you how this pattern could develop in Southold Town. So we'll show you our visuals are not quite as good. These the zone, the red colors that you see are all the general business zones in the Town of Southotd. It's more graphic cause the lines aren't on it. All of these zones could potentially become operations for a fast food operation of chains suchas the McDonald's Corporation and Taco Bell, all the rest of them that Nancy has delineated up here could come before this very Board and ask for the very same thing. This is a legal fact and these are undisputable facts. MS SAWASTYNOWICZ: They are in the yellow pages, Blimpies~ MS FLETCHER: Now I know that you are bound to judge this application on its own merits. But I think you should understand and'I think that we all know here that this is not just one vote for one fast food chain restaurant. Granting this special exception permit will set in motion changes the likes of which Southold Town has never know before. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOEPLRtNGER: Yes sir? MR SIMON: My name is Michael Simon. I'm a resident of New Suffolk. Perhaps after these subsitive presentations I don't have a whole lot to add. But I would note that I do not question sincerity of the representative of McDonalds when he said he would like to keep the rural character of the Town of Southold. I'm sure McDonalds would like to be the first and last fast food restaurant in Southold-McDonalds. If that is unrealistic that is something that I think would upset everyone here who lives in the Town of Southold. But assuming that they could be the first and last then we come to another point. There has been a lot discussion about the drive-through facility. Now as I understand, what a drive- through somebody does is it provides a competitive edge to one fast food restaurant over other fast food restaurants. Whether those ones do not yet have those or they already have them. But if there is only one fast food restaurant here then there is less economic need for the drive-through facility and I think McDonalds could probably follow its own conduct in making impressive'accommodations to the needs and the requirements of the area if in fact they do get this special privilege which many of us are not in favor of. Of being the first and last fast food restaurant in $outhold Town. Page 43 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEPIRINGER: Excuse me sir you have to sign in. Yes sir, right here. You have been waiting for a long time. I'm going to take two more speakers, gentleman on the wall, gentleman in the back we're going to take a break. Maybe we'll take George and then we'll take a break. MR GEIER: My name is H.W. Geier, I'm living in Southold together with my wife. We retired just a short while ago and I never had a chance to speak up here in Town ~all, this is a first time for myself and I also came along completely unprepared tonight. I wanted to speak a little earlier but unfortunately as one of the last speakers you know you see that most of your questions have already been raised and you feel a little frustrated so whatever reason I would like to more or less dwell on generalities. Before we retired, you know we had a choice between retiring in one of the South side, the Southampton area because we have friends that have been living there for a long time, of course you know they went out a few years ago and settled down in the southern part of the United States because this area was built up tremendously and it was to them it was unfit to be a retirement area. So we said we will settle then on the Northern flank in Southotd, you know which is a beautiful place and we have know this place for quite some time because we came and spend our summer vacation here with our children they more or less considered this as their second home for the last twenty five years and we more or less developed a feeling you know for this area and we are hoping we have a lot of company on the thought that this area should remain as much as it used to be you know during the last ten or fifteen years and with some changes or minor changes and unfortunately, with the development which is showing itself, which is already casting its shadows we have some doubt that the character of this particular area will be maintained unless we have a lot of support also from our representatives, from our political representatives. Now I spent a lot of time on business in the City of New York, I'm not against you know companies like McDonalds, as a matter of fact I considered even buying stocks. Just recently I bought Pepsi Cola instead but and I steadily persuaded you to buy McDonalds, but it seems you know that every business has its place and being very familiar with this particular area, there myself, I have a very great doubts that this is really the best area for McDonaids. Which ends to another question, the gentleman before me addressed. You know my concern that thirty or forty percen~ of the business of McDonalds depends on the drive-through business and I think this a terrible thing to happen especially in this rural area because each day, I'm walking my dog twice a day, I find myself picking up a lot of garbage, I do this because I would like to keep my Page 44 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southotd Z.B.A. MR GEIER, cont'd: neighborhood clean and I'm pretty sure that McDonald garbage might be added to what I'm picking up already. As a matter of fact I'm carrying with me a plastic bag in order to carry these beer cans an my hands because people might think I'm a drunkard. And so for that reason I would say we all, we are living in this area. We should really make a choice. Would we like to you know to remain an area which is tranquil and reasonably protected you know from the terrible over flow of garbage of which we have plenty already and this can only be done you know in. cooperation with our elected representatives in o~fice and this is a question which we all have to face and this question will also be brought up you know more frequently as business is trying to get into our area. I'm not against business at all we need, our nation needs business and see to it that it increases and gets more employment and more employment, but the ~reas have to carefully chosen, you know ~or such enterprises. And another suggestion t would like to make is you for more people to speak up then just a few you know that came up into the microphone. I would suggest that everybody takes a little drink here before we come to the next meeting to their inhibitions. It might help. Thank you very much° MR NENTZEL: My name is Charles Nentzel and I'm probably one of the few people here who lived on Bray Ave in 1932. So anyway, I know the area pretty well. I still live within a mile of where this McDonalds plans, is planning to build. I would like to make the following commen~s though. And I'm going to read this if you don't mind. McDonalds bas applied for this special exception to establish a fast food restaurant and a drive-through window under two separate and clearly defined sections of the code and while the fast food restaurants are permitted by permitted use by special exceptions drive-in restaurants are not permitted in any zoning district with or without special exceptions. This is been a little redone. The legal notice states that the Zoning Board approval is subject to the code requirements set forth in Article 10 Section 100-100B which addresses fast food restaurants. And 100-101C which deals with accessory uses, drive-in, drive-through, drive-up are not listed or permitted use by special exception in either 10lB or C. This is a clear distinction between fast food restaurants and fast food restaurants with drive-in windows. Pizza Huts and Friendlys both operate fast food restaurants and they do not have drive-in facilities and they are operated solely as fast food restaurants. McDonalds has already testified that the chain operates both types of restaurants. It is also distinguished that two types of uses by telling that one of their operations as substantially more profitable than Page 45 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR NENTZEL, cont'd: another. At March 8th hearing McDonald's representatives said that between forty and forty five percent of the companies business is generated from fast food restaurants with drive=in windows. McDonalds has also told us about litter patrols, traffic flows, noise levels from its window speakers and dozen of other problems associated with fast food restaurants. But with not with fast food restaurants~ but with drive-in, drive-up, drive- through restaurants. ~It cannot be implied that fast food restaurants and drive-in restaurants are ones that use windows are the same. They are not. Fast food merely refers to the speed at which food is prepared and serviced and not into the matter in which it is served. Drive-ins and drive- throughs specifically address the manner in which food is served. Going back, Webster, if he defines fast food as a business that offers food prepared and served qllickly. It defines drive-ins designed to render its service to persons who drive up and remain in their cars. However, drive-in restaurants are not permitted in the zoning district. The Town code'specifically states that in a general business district restaurants excluding drive-in restaurants are permitted. In a general business district fast food restaurants are also permitted by special exception, provided that eating on the premises of the fast food restaurant shall be permitted only inside the structure or in areas specifically designated and properly maintained outside the' structure. The code does not say fast food restaurants and drive-in fast food restaurants are permitted. And it distinguishes the two uses and prohibits drive-in restaurants. The code also~ the code further separates the two under the definition 100-13, restaurants when it lists, drive-in or not and or fast food restaurants. The second part of the application is for an accessory use and it is defined in the code as one that is incidental or subordinate to the main use Of the lot whether an accessory use is conducted in the principal or accessory building. One could hardly call a drive-in window incidental when McDonalds has already testified that it will serve as a principal use to derive income or revenues. There is ample precedents set in the court and in this Town as to what constitutes an accessory use. On August 18, 1988, the Board ruled on a meaning of accessory use. The Board of Appeals said "this Board's decision is that the accessory use either in principal building or accessory building does not permit any service or sales activities even though the establishment may require such a similar activity such as active uses may be considered as part of the principal use." McDonald's has clearly tested that it intends to use the window to serve and sell which the Board's own ruling means that the window cannot be considered as' an accessory use. It is a principal Page 46 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. PLR NENTZEL, cont,d: use. The application does not meet the requirements of the code. I request that the Board reject the application on the grounds that it is without authority to grant special exception because the project fails to comply with zoning code. Thank you gentlemen. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Mr. Nentzel. Second to last speaker before the break. You're on. MR ZWEIG: Good evening. My name is Michael Zweig. I'm presidont of Southold 2000 which is an organization in Southold Town that's a couple of hundred residents dedicated to the application of sound planning principles in the town. McDonalds has made a big point that they try to conform with the needs of the community when they come into the community. The problem here however is that McDonalds clearly doesn't want to conform to the needs of the community as those needs are expressed in our zoning code. That's why they are here looking for an exception, because the rules of the Town don't allow them to do what they want to do and they are not willing to live by those rules. They want to change them and I think most people here don't want to see that change made. And we have to ask to whose convenience is the change being made and what does it mean to the Town and to what are the principles of planning that lay behind that change. ! think that it's pretty clear from the climate in this room and in the Town over the last little while that people in this Town don't want the kind of town that accommodates fast food restaurants with drive-through windows. The accommodation would not serve an interest of the people in this town it seems. I think that from our point of view~ from Southold 2000, we look at the principles of planning and try to see how we can preserve this community here through the application of sound zoning and in particular to loathe the development of strip commercial districts and also to make sure that whatever development happens here is consistent · with the character of the area and when many people here tonight have talked about the question of character of the area, I think that that's a very real consideration and the character of the area means not just the architecture of the building, it means what kind of a place is this. Is this a place which is like any other place in the country where there are McDonalds and Burger Kings and Holiday Inns and everybody else or is this place the North Fork? And when you come here you are coming to a special place. That's a real question. Now I think that the town has zoning ordinances which are designed to help to promote that special character of this place and some of us hope that the town zoning or code can be changed to make it even more consistent with those special characteristics of the town. The principals Page 47 April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. FIR ZWEIG, cont'd: here that McDonalds is trying to promote seems to go counter to our interests in sound planning and it seems to go in the interests of over turning what are the zoning codes of this town. And i~ McDonalds wants to come it seems to me that if they really want ~o abide by the principals of the town they should come on the terms of the town and if they can't do business on the terms that the mown provides for its own characser than perhaps McDonalds can't do business out here. Well that's their problem not ours. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Mr. McCarthy? MR MCCARTPiY: My name is George McCarthy, I was born in Laurel, literally, that was before Riverhead hospital was thought of. So I consider myself a native. Never in my life have I ever thought any of you people who are not native, excuse me, who are not natives should not come here. In fact I made a living from either you people or your parents. I was the only excavator in Southold Town for fifteen years. I · have my crane, bulldozer, dump trucks and so forth parked in my backyard. You won't want them in your backyard. I've been very active and I've seen the change and the change is going to constant whether we like it or not. When I first went to Laurel post office there was one man part time. I asked Mr. F!eshmen for my mail and a loaf of bread. The combination post master and deli operator. Today they have three people in Laurel in the post office plus rural delivery. So I've seen change and it's going to come in spite of everybody here that hate McDonalds. I've been all over the United States and I may I could make a bet I've eaten in more McDonalds then anybody here or almost any group. I did it for 200,000 miles all forty eight states. I could ride around on an eighteen wheeler or my now recreation vehicle and never us a map until I get local. What am I saying? I'm saying we have to be tolerant, I think McDonalds is a wonderful thing. I'm going to show good manners zn spite of ignoring bad manners and showing good manners. They landscaped, our dells around here that serve sandwiches and so forth, I'd be embarrassed to go in the kitchen and I've been in the kitchen. McDonalds have excellent restaurants. So I think the change comes, now you may say oh he doesn't want out of towners. I have to wanu them. I brought my wife from Brooklyn. And I've had her for 51 years. I've been very active in school boards and so forth. Underneath, that's why you haven't seen or heard me here. Tonight I said from what I read in the paper I'm going to go down and see. I'm seeing, the point I'm making is this. This change is coming regardless. If we can prolong it, we all want automobiles, we come from somewhere and moved in here by the thousands. We want automobiles, we. don't want a tire Page 4B - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. I~R MCCARTHY, cont'd: shredder~ we don't want a junk yard, we don't want an asphalt plant, we don't want a sand pit. Okay if we can get away with it okay. My son just left Long Island after making a good living here in Southold Town, he's going to Florida, I would be totally embarrassed, really embarrassed and ashamed if he came back and said, Pop, ! don't know what to do I'm going to have to come back there. They won't let me in. In spite of McDo~alds up in Middle Island, they are all over the country. 7-11 is here. Excuse me, I carry a bag when I go to the post office to pick up the garbage. I do get a nickel a can. I do pick up the crushed cans. And find 7-11 garbage, I find McDonalds, but I can't blame McDonalds for garbage in the street. That is you people, your children or not mine now, one is in California and one is in Florida so I can't blame, but it's your children or grandchildren or what have you. So I say to all of you who are Johnny come latelys. You are totally welcome. I said I was active in the, I'll say I was active in the Chan%ber of Commerce in Mattituck, that's the people you, that's the reason you people are here. My vice-president came to me and he said George how do you feel about, by the way that was Fred Moore, I think he lives in Southold, he says how do you feel about zoning. Riverhead voted it down. Are you for it or against it? I said I'm neutral. He said why? I said from what I've seen and heard it can be wonderful if it's properly used. If it's'abused it can be horribly crude. Fred Moore said if it rules in your favor it's good, and if it rules against you it's bad. I said to a degree that's the way most of us are, I hate to admit it. We held a meeting in Mattituck High School. We had over two hundred people present. They decided to appoint a committee, hold a meeting in the Cutchogue Country Club and Mattituck Chamber of Commerce dropped out. Zoning came through. Riverhead had voted it down all five eastern towns voted zoning in oh as quickly as they could. So I still say I don't envy you people boy you can make this honest decisions, they can be wrong decisions. We are human. So the fact that I have 200,000 miles recorded on speedometers, on eighteen wheelers and RV's according to our RV last year I added 22~000. I'm leaving for California in another month so McDonalds has been good to me. I like them and I would rather have a McDonalds come in than some of the other local restaurants. You said it, people say oh McDonalds is going to grab our money and run. Sure they are. The more they can grab the better. Doesn't A & P grab our money and run. Same thing. We need A & P and I think we need McDonatds. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you George. George could I ask you to sign in. I need a motion. We will take another £ive minute recess and we'll be back to discuss some of the Page 49 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: completed TURNED TAPE OVER. Temporary Break All in Favor - AYE. CHAIRMA~ GOEHRINGER: I promised Mrs. Fletcher that she could continue her discussion with us. MRS FLETCHER: Thank you very much. I'll be pretty brief and to the point. I'd like to discuss an issue that was raised at the last meeting of McDonalds as the good corporate neighbor. I found that an interesting comment and I found that an interesting phrase. And I will refer to page 55 of the transcript from the March hearing. It was Mr. Annabel, an employee of McDonald's Corporations said and I "McDonalds I believe is a good corporate neighbor and I think we can stand tall against any other corporation on the Island as far as that goes" so I decided to see just what kind of a corporate neighbor McDonatds was. So I took myself down to the law library on the second floor of the Riverhead court house and this is a partial list of recorded cases that I found. From Colorado to Massachusetts, from Indiana to Pennsylvania, to Vermont, this nation wide corporation is involved in litigation. The cases were two general t~rpes, the first type were instances where McDonalds was denied permission to build for various zoning reasons, they would than sue the city, town or board in an attempt to have the decision reversed. In Colorado, they commenced building in a residential zone without permission. They did the same thing in Rutland, Vermont. The second type of case is after McDonalds has arrived, having agree to certain restrictions initiallyr such as a sign height in an Indiana case they re-apply a few years after arriving to get a variance pleading the either practical difficulties or unnecessary hardship as the case may be. When they are denied, they sue. In two separate cases in Pennsylvania, they argued to the Appellate level over the meanings of words. One of them being playground, the others drive-in and drive-through. Are these the actions of a good corporate neighbor. I hardly 'think so. But the good news is this, McDonalds lost these cases. Other people have survived a big mac attack and I think we can too. I will provide you with a list of the cases and where they can be located. Finally, during my research I came upon a set of volu~es entitled West New York Digest Third in section 36 under zoning the heading is autistic Considerations. There follows a list of cases in which the opinion is expressed by the courts that community autistics is a valid subject of legislative concern and one whose regulation represents a valid and permissive exercise Page 50 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MRS FLETCHER, cont'd: of the police power. I can provide you with a list of the cases under that section also. One of them was a case that was taken all the way to the Supreme Court, decided in 1978 Penn Central vs the City of New York. The City of New York won. I want to bring these to your attention because ! think it's important that we understand, we have heard tonight about covenants, we have had promises made to us, t also want to mention that the cooperative venture between E~D.F. and McDonald's Corporation was a forced venture. I am a member of E.D,F. and I can provide with the newsletter, which tells me that if they had not gone in on this venture, they were under threat of litigation from E.D.F. So, this is the corporate neigt~bor that we are dealing with. You decide. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything that you would like to submit? MR MINEO: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. Okay. MR MINEO: Did you say submit or? CHAIRMAi~ GOEHRINGER: Any rebuttal or anything? MR MINEO: No. CHAIRM~ GOEHRINGER: No. Okay. You want to say something mam? Okay go ahead. I was just going to ge~ up and address. No, I didn't realize there was still people that wanted to speak, I apologize. We'll be with you in a minute Warren. oh, you want to speak too Jeanne? MS HALSEY: I'm Cynthia Halsey from Southold and I didn't want ~o bother you again earlier, I spoke last time and I wanted to say a couple of things that are in reply to what came up last time. The first s~ep although I think I should tell you that my parents and I have been paying taxes in Southold for more years than I care to admit to and if we're talking about times old and times new I can refer to some interesting tombstones dating from the 1600's, so I think I could say I could speak for some old time. First of all, I don't live within the boom box range that will undoubtedly pollute the air in Mattituck, but we all pay taxes. If they contribute a poultry $9,000 and they take out what is something for one service only, I believe last time,.garbage, that happy word, $31,000 they are asking us for one service not police department, not fire department, not any other service the town could provide. A subsidy from all of us of Page 51 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR HALSEY, cont'd: about $20,000 per year as things now stand. For every year this place, if it managed to succeed, which it might not, we would be stuck if the landfill cost went up they would probably double, that would be something over $40,000 a year that the town's people would have to provide whether they. wanted it or whether they didn't want to. And also, the question of corporate neighbors, they're expensive. Everything the franchisee buys from McDonalds, and they buy practically everything I believer goes back to Oakpark, Illinois which is not my hometown and to pay their thirty four cent a share dividend. They aren't on the Dow ~ Jones because they're fun to have around. Thank you. CHAI~4AN GOEHRINGER: Could I ask you to signin? Thank you. MS MARRINER: Jeanne Marriner and our family has been here since 1913, if we're getting into that. This is in my opinion a question of the law and it's evident that there is a clear distinction in the Southold Townzoning code between fast food restaurants and fast food restaurants with.drive-in windows, they are not the same. Drive-in restaurants are not permitted in any zoning district. The Southold code definitively separates restaurants under Section 100-13 when it lists drive-ins or not and fast food restaurants and as for the second part of the application under consideration which attempts to disguise drive-in restaurants as an accessory use, accessory use is defined in the Southold zoning law as one that is incidental and subordinate to the main use. One could hardly call a drive-in window incidental or an accessory use when McDonalds has testified at the March hearing that 40 to 45 percent of its revenue is derived from the drive-in. There are precedents in the courts and in the Town of Southold as to what constitutes accessory use as Mr. Nentzel stated. The application under consideration does not meet the requirements of the code and gentlemen I ask you to uphold the law. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Mrs. Marriner. Yes mam? MS ROSS: My name is Bette Ross and I wrote a letter to each of you on the Board of Appeals last week and I'm not going to bore you by reading the letter, but I would like to address a couple of issues. One of them is the special exception category under Article 26 says that the effect that the location of the proposed use and the location that entrances and exits may have upon the creation or undue increase and vehicular traffic congestion on public streets, highways, or sidewalks to assure the public safety and whether adequate prevision can and will be made for the collection and disposal of.refuse which the proposed use will generate. Page 52 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southotd MS ROSS, cont'd: Those are the questions that I would like to address~ Now~ these are things are to be taken into consideration when, if a special exception is granted. By the McDonald's testlmony, they are suggesting that 1,300 cars will turn into the site each day. I don't know how many hours the restaurant will be open, but if we assume that it would be open from 6:00 am to midnight that would be 72 cars per hour on the average. If 40% of ~hose were using the drive-in, that would be about 29 per hour. Now these 40% of the cars that go in there, if my figures are correct, if they generated one ton of garbage a day, the people who drive into McDonalds are going to take their garbage away with them. They are not going to get out of their car and throw it into a McDonald's container. So that the burden of the disposal of that refuse falls on the Town of Southotd and if they would generate one ton per day under normal conditions than 40% of that would be 800 pounds a day which would go out of the McDonald's area. And for 30 days that would be 24,000 pounds of garbage or 12 tons a month. At $85.00 a ton that's $1,020.00 a month or $12,000 a year. They are only paying $9,000.00 in taxes and of that $4,500.00 is going to go to the school district, half of it. So $4,500.00 is what they would pay for all of this garbage that is being generated and being taken ou~ into the community, either back to your home or on the street and the taxpayer Ks asked to subsidize that and that's wrong. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Over here? Okay. MR GOLDSTEIN: My name is Warren Goldstein and I'm the executive director of the North Fork Environmental Council. It's almost six months now that I've been trying to think up things to say about McDonalds and the astonishing thing to me is that every time I either think about coming to hearing or think about writing something, that something new seems to come up. I came to this hearing tonight excited about it because of the out pouring of eloquence last month and wondering what new could be said and in fact what I've seen tonight is a whole slew of new things. A whole set of new ways that people have found to talk about their town and about the threat that's posed to it by this application for a special exception. So I was trying to figure out as I sat here tonight, why that is? Why is it that this one corporation, this one application seems to draw out of the people here. So it's really exceptional creativity and imagination and eloquent and I think it's because, at least one reason, is that McDonalds seems to lie at the intersection of a whole bunch of stuff in our lives right now. McDonalds represented a whole lot of trends of the fifty and sixties and may have peaked at some point in the Page 53 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR GOLDSTEIN, cont'd: 1970's. It seems to have been a culture based on the unlimited use of the automobile. A culture based on the unlimited manufacture of garbage. The unlimited manufacture cf styrofoam. The anticipation we would always have places to put it or that we could burn it and it wouldn't matter, that we could create as much waste as possible and it wouldn't finally matter. That we could eat as much junk food as possible and it wouldn't finally matter, but there are some things that are Changing in this society and we've been changing in a lot of places around the country and when you see what's happening right now here before this board with this application, you see a lot of things in conflict. McDonalds is a corporation, there's the corporation of a era that's over. It's an era that is beginning to die. Why else does McDonaids reverse in a couple of days something that they were proud of pioneering for years and years, the production of styrofoam. That wonderful material. Why else does McDonalds under pressure invent the Mclean? McDonalds is a corporation and a restaurant that was founded on the Mcfat. It was founded precisely on something different then that, but things have changed. Our concerns about nutrition have changed, our concerns about the environment have changed. McDonalds was founded on that big M out there. Those golden arches that I grew up with, that's also changed. They represent something that doesn't, that is not in a growth spurt right now, in fact even the business section, the front page of the Time's business section in the last month had a article on how the corporation isn't even doing very well, especially domestically, It seems that all the growth for McDonalds right now is with the foreign McDonalds, so it's opening in Budapest, Moscow and Leningrad. The people of this country seem to have had about enough and that's one of the reasons why you see this kind of outburst I think of eloquence and creativity here, where people have something to protect and they understand the two eras. The things that Southold represents, the.character of the North Fork, the character of this town that makes it special are in conflict with what ' McDonalds has represented and continues to represent around the country. It's why people don't want it. It's why they don't want it for so many reasons. It's why it's of a kind of historical significance that they want to come here and people don't want them here. You have a Chance to decide. I understand you're not going to do it tonight, but there is something terribly important that's happening here. Something that is people standing up for the character of their town and also standing up for their future which McDonalds isn't part of. Thank you. MR PILLAI: My name is Bryan Pillai, I'm a resident of Laurel Page 54 April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z~B.A. ~R PILLAI, cont'd: and t live just off the corner of Bray Ave where the proposed McDonalds is planning to be. I'm going back to what Mr. Mineo said about what the Board is required to do and I have here with me a quote from a section of Congress dated July 4, 1776, it's know better as the Declaration of Independence. To hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equat¥ that they are endowed by their creator with certain rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit Of happiness. That to secure these rights governments are instituted among men. Clearly the pursuit of happiness is not being followed here and you are a government that has been instituted, must do your duty and in securing our rights deny a special exception permit to McDonald's Corporation. Thank you. MR LOGAN: My name is Pat Logan and I work for Econo~s Foundation. I'm not a resident o~ Southold Town, so be that as it may, I may be welcome, I may not be. But I do spend a lot of my working time here and where I work is with some of the endangered species, especially sea turtles in this town. I work and thank you for the commercial fishermen who support that project, i also work along the beaches and I don't have to go to Riverhead to find the trash from McDonalds, I find plenty of it here in Southold. Anytime anybody wants to take a walk any mile stretch of beach anywhere in the Town of Southold, especially on the north shore, you can find the plastic lids from McDonalds and other Burger King and other kinds of trash that washes up on the high tide mark. This town already has plenty of their trash. The other thing is that I'also find is trash inside the animals that. I have a · the animals that I cut open. I'm not going to blame anybody for that trash being there, in particular and since that we are all responsible for the trash that we have, but if we have a discussion to be made about any changes about evolution in any community, we should be concerned about lessons of the past and lessons of today. The sea turtle for example is about the most endangered species in New York. The only place we find it is out here in the east end of Long Island on a regular basis and that's one thing I don't think we can preserve, but it's a lesson to be learned when we find little plastic caps from coffee cups and other pieces of trash inside these animals. The other end of this is, is in a sense that because I work with commercial fishermen, I had to look at one of the industries that have really built this con~nunity. Fishing and farming are the production industries that have supported this area. McDonalds as a restaurant is basically a service industry. It is not the baseline economy kind of industry that supports an entire community, like fishing and farming is. I believe the french fried potatoes come from Idaho and I'm not sure Page 55 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR LOGAN, cont'd: Where the whaler or the, that'S not pardon me, the fish sandwich comes from, but I don't see it really as a support to this community. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We've got to wrap this up by quarter of eleven, we still have an agenda that we have to follow ladies and gentlemen, so. MR MELOSH: My name is Arthur Melosh and I'm from Mattituck. I've heard a 10t of questions asked tonight and I heard a lot of responses by the, I would say the second or perhaps the third team of McDonalds. I don't know, I can't say, and I'm not ~sure. But ladies and gentlemen they do have a first classY·team too. So you better be careful, they may come in. I also heard tonight an article or a comment made, that there are not playgrounds, well I've traveled from Maine to Florida and I can assure you, there are many playgrounds connected with McDonalds and tables outside; now I don't know what the law is here in Mattituck, but I don't think it's a good · situation from what I hava observed, especially this past winter down in Daytona Beach, Florida. They do have McDonatds with tables and very amusement apparatuses, play toys for the kids and it does bring an element in there which I would say is noisy at times. Now secondly, I had a restaurant in Floral Park which is the next town from New Hyde Park and you know they gotta say there is some good things about McDonalds. They took a building there because they were forced to renovate this old, it was mansion from years ago. It was a restaurant for many years. They did a superb job. A superb job, it's in keeping with the neighborhood, it's in keeping with the type of building that the town wanted, however, I was there Wednesday and I went into the block in back and I spoke to three people, now they don't have as much property there as they're going to have here true. The backyards are right up against the drive-ins window. Now from what I understand, if you have six cars, say five cars waiting for their burgers and so forth, I'd have five more cars on line, this is at peak time of course. You have ten cars there and let's say two minutes a piece that's twenty minutes. From what these three neighbors told me, that the smell at times of gasoline is quite extensive. It's a small matter but it's important. I made a few notes here. Well I know if I was to open up a business, I would not want to open up in a town where I saw the actions of the last meeting and tonight hostel to my coming into a town and I would give second thoughts. Thank you.· MR ISAACS: My name is Bruce Isaacs, I guess I would like to talk about an aspect of the traffic problem, in particular the Sound Ave~ North Road corridor.· Now I suspect there is a Page 56 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MR ISAACS~ cont'd: lot of transit traffic on that corridor going either from the ferry from Connecticut, both ways and to Riverhead and beyond. Now it's almost certain that there are going to be at least two signs on the North Road and Sound Ave directing people to turn south on one of our lanes to go to the Main Koad and ultimately to McDonalds. Now that is seriously going to effect the traffic on one of our lanes or several of our lanes and I live on Alvah's Lane and I certainly would not want that sign on, directing people to turn down Alvahs because it would seriously impact on our area. We would have, it would probably increase the traffic on Alvah's Lane or whatever road that they chose to put the sign on. Probably three or four times and as citizens of South0tds would we have any right to not allow signs directing people to travel on our road and disrupt our community? I don't know if anybody address that yet, but it's a serious problem with me, and if anybody who would effect the flow of traffic down one of those southbound lanes and again on the garbage, obviously we all know here that this town is in a garbage crisis. I mean we don't know where it's going %o end up literally and we don't know how much it's gomng to end up costing us and now the figure today is a ton, I mean a half of a ton, last hearing it was one ton. But even so, even at a half a ton, to me that would probably be equivalent to the garbage probably of a hundred families. I mean this is an incredible amount of garbage at the time when we're here and in the midst of a garbage crisis. It seems ludicrous to allow this at this time. I mean, just on that basis alone and that's all I have. MS BROWN: Good evening~ my name is Betty Brown and I'm the President of the North Fork Environmental Council. The North Fork Environmental Council opposes the application of McDonalds for a special permit to operate a fast food restaurant. The special permit technique is employed to control uses which are regarded to be especially troublesome. The uses are in the Southold code and the fast food restaurants are listed among them. The issuance of a special exception permit for McDonaids is a duty imposed upon the Board of Appeals, provided of course, that the proposed use meets with all the standards provided in your code. By any stretch oi the imagination does this fast food restaurant meet all those standards and unless the applicant can prove that the ~tandards contained in that code can be met, the Board of Appeals is without the power to approve this permit. A very serious issue that must be addressed is the subject property, is the subject property that fronts on two'roads. The north frontage being Old Main Road is contiguous to a residential neighborhood. Certainly a fast food restaurant, next to, and near homes is unsuitable. Would anyone here Page 57 April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. MS BROWN, cont'd: tonight want to live next to McDonalds? It will adversely affect property values as well as the character of the neighborhood. I would ask the Board to note the unique location of this~ parcel. Please visit these homes, their quiet backyards, the gardens, the natural landscape and all the privacy. Do you think that a fast food restaurant would be a good neighbor? Another important consideration is the proposed use will increase traffic and traffic congestion. The traffic issue is relevant to each of the general standards stated and is specifically addressed in 100-264C of your code. We urge the Board to require a supplemental traffic study as the Dunn report is not adequate. This supplement should address cbtmuiative impacts of traffic when all the vacant parcels are developed. A fast food restaurant will definitely generate more traffic than a permitted use in that zone. It should be noted that the area is only partially developed, an anticipated traffic projections for years to come are necessary for the decisions your Board makes now. Gentlemen, Southold Town is going to have their hands full solving traffic problems when permitted development takes place. How could we consider compounding that problem by allowing traffic intense businesses to be permitted there as an exception. I would like to point out to the Board that courts uphold decisions in regard to traffic and I would like to just mention one short one if you can bear with me. In a 1980 Appellate division case, Franchise Realty Interstate Court vs Cohallan, the Appellate division upheld a determination by the Town Board of the Town of Islip denyingJa special permit for a fast food restaurant based on the fact that the proposed use would aggravate the existing congestion on Sunrise Highway because of the necessity of turning movement at neighboring intersections. This decision was affirmed by the Court of Appeals. The Environmental Council feels strongly that McDonalds fast food restaurant is not in keeping with Southold's rural character or the neighboring community character. The area in which it will be situated is clearly a commercial zone. Largely made up of small town businesses, vacant parcels, and several residences. We also ask the Board to consider thoroughly the issue of solid waste and litter. This is covered in your code 100-264D. In summary, I wo~ld like to say that I don't believe that we're here tonight to talk about McDonalds as the recycling giant of the east end or the beauty of the site plan that~we have before us. We're here tonight to talk about the roads that will become congested. Making decisions carefully now so our children do not inherit traffic problems that they cannot solve. It's about stopping what we have on Route 58 in Riverhead from coming to Southotd Town. It's about maintaining the character and the order of Southold Town and its future. Please deny this application. Page 58 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Betty. Two more speakers please and then I have to address the McDonald's people for a second and then we'll conclude the hearing, ts there anybody else that has not spoken? MI~ LOWRY: I have a very brief ps. I used to live in New York City and I was a foot soldier in a battle against ' McDonalds in our neighbor in the upper west side and this is a garbage ps. We finally won our case and pushed the restaurant from west 86th to west 96th. on the basis that McDonalds brings rats and we have enough rats already.. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Mineo, I did tell you that I'm just briefly going to scope out some of the concerns that we have, or I have, I'm not speaking for the Board concerning the existing site plan and this is, I'm not the Planning Board I don't do site plan approval, we don't do site plan approval. We are, I'm just briefly going to mention that to you, to these people here. We will refer this back to the Planning Board, they more than likely will have to reopen their negative declaration to deal with the specific questions and issues as per that letter from the D.O.T which I have not fully, it was nice of Mr. Dunn to go over that, but I haven't fully, we just received it conceivably, we received it at 4:55 this afternoon, so I have not, I have not really let it digest to this particular point. The main concern that I have which I considered to be of most importance is the internal and external flow of cars in and out of the parking lot and as those particular cars do the loop around the building, primarily through the proposed drive-through window and the individual persons who are going to use this establishment are dealing with the ingress and egress going to and from the building. I will admit to you that this second plan that has been proposed is a better plan, but it does not significantly address those issues. It only takes care of about 10 or 15 percent of my particular feelings concerning this project. Again, this has no bearing on the normal, actual, look~ style, or conception of this particular plan. It is an area that I construe to be a problem with health, safety and welfare for our residents in this town and I will leave it open to any other Board Members that would like to address any issues or scope out any other particular areas at this point. It may involve a meeting with the Planning Board, we may have to have a meeting with them, i'm not sure~ But we will refer it back and hopefully we will conclude this hearing when everything comes back from them. MR MINEO: One question I have, Mr. Chairman is what happens in the event that the Planning Board respectfully refuses to change its position. You eluded to the fact that the Page 59 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southotd Z.B.A. MR MINEO, cont'd: Planning Board might have to reconsider its negative declaration in spite of the letter that Walter Dunn received. I would say that the letter that Walter Dunn received confirmed what the negative declaration requested. CHAIRFJuN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MR MINEO: So far from changing the position, from what my concern is more procedural, in the event that you say well we have concerns about the internal layout and we want the Planning Board to review it and the Planning Board now says, well guys we looked at it, we liked it, we made a lot of changes initially so we really don't want to change what we've'.already, a negative dec. What's the mechanics then? What happens between the Boards? CHAIRMAN GOEHR!NGER: The mechanics are as such that hopefully they will address aspecific plan that we would normally, that I would normally care to recommend to the Board. MR MINEO: Will you be giving the Board a specific recommendation? The Planning Board? CHAIRMA~ GOEHRINGER: Nothing more than what I've just discussed with you in particular. Truthfully, I would still love to see an exit out on Old Main Road, but I don't think that's going to be for an emergency one way exit. Okay, for an emergency vehicle that we've of course, they have told us that they are not interested in and so we have this entrance that will support a fire vehicle, which is of my concern, being a member of the Mattituck Fire Department since 1969. Okay. That is not a issue. The issue of the drive- through is the issue and the ingress and egress of car over people is my main concern. Now, to answer your question, if they so chose not to change the plan than we will close the hearing and-make a decision based upon this. I have no intentions of forcing anybody to do anything. I never 6o. I'm just going to make that suggestion. In reference to my discussions concerning the negative declaration, I have no idea what they are going to do. I was only, it's only a hypothesis on my part, alright? If they are going to continue with the negative declaration that's fine. Pardon me? (UNIDENTIFIED): Could you build it under ground? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's basically where we are. If I've somehow clouded the issue in reference to the negative declaration, then this letter, I assure you I didn't mean to Page 60 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southotd Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: alright. MR MINEO: No, not at all. I was just concerned that i didn't want to be stuck between two boards, if the boards had different ideas and then neither board was going to act, but you've answered that question for me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. And we certainly will re- advertise when we come back or they come back and we'll conclude the hearing at that particular point. MR MINEO: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright? I'm just telling you that based upon what we have right here I don't think that's adequate for me to address this particular project in my opinion. We thank you all for your courtesy again, we wish you safe trip home. Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: I wou!d ~ust like to make a comment. I did this last meeting too. My only, and I don't want you to take this as a yes or no kind of thing, i'm sorry, I particularly have a problem with that forcing people to walk through traffic constantly. In this particular site plan. I'm not asking you change it, but that certainly is a problem for me and that by no means says you change that and you have my vote. I hadn't had a time to read.this, it just came in today or yesterday, but that is a particular problem to me in that several restaurants that I did visit, the traffic, the cars were parked near the restaurant and the drive-through was on the outside, I'm speaking of one in Medford in particular, seemed to be a nice way for that to follow through. It had two windows, by the way you pay at one and you receive the food at the same one. You don't drive up and, no I was boldly told that t don't drive up and basically I had already made that mistakel But I would have to read this and certainly when Jerry eludes to the Planning Board I just think that this particular site p!an~ with this particular flow of traffic doesn't make any sense at all to me and I would like to see that addressed by probably the Planning Board. Okay, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I should point out for the record also that our comments to the Planning Board during this process were comments that mainly concerned the safety factor of getting vehicular traffic into the site for the purposes of fighting fire or ambulance personnel, so on and so forth, of which I~m not a rescue squad person but that was our main concern at this point. We did not discuss with them the internal flow of the vehicular traffic to the site at that Page 61 - April 5, 1991 Public Hearing - McDonald's Corporation Southold Z.B.A. CHAIRMAN, cont'd: point, okay~ to this point, I have no idea how far this individual site plan is completed. I going to assume it's complete, fairly complete and. 5IR MINEO: Well there was a subjec~ of extensive discussion and revisions with the Planning. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I know it was, right, okay, but you have to understand that since March 8th I have spent a great deal of time studying this and this is the whole purpose of my thoughts at this particular time, that's why I'm saying I have to, we have to continue with this process. Okay. Thank you very much. Gentlemen, I need a motion to recess the hearing. All in Favor - AYE. Hearing concluded 11:05 pm ~. .:/~ ,,~ . ~ Transcribed from Tape (Not Present at Hearing)