HomeMy WebLinkAbout10/20/2020 Public Hearing SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD
PUBLIC HEARING
October 20, 2020
7:00 PM
Present: Supervisor Scott Russell
Justice Louisa Evans
Councilwoman Jill Doherty
Councilman Bob Ghosio, Jr.
Councilwoman Sarah Nappa
Town Clerk Elizabeth Neville
Town Attorney William Duffy
Recused: Councilman James Dinizio, Jr.
This hearing was opened at 7:25 PM
COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the Town Board of the Town
of Southold is considering the change of zone to amend the Zoning Map of the Town of
Southold by changing the Zoning District designation of SCTM#1000-102-2-5 from Residential
Low-Density (R-80) to Affordable Housing District(AHD); and
NOTICE IS HEREBY FURTHER GIVEN that pursuant to the requirements of Section 265 of
the New York State Town Law and the Code of the Town of Southold, Suffolk County,New
York, the Town Board of the Town of Southold will hold a public hearing on a proposed
Local Law entitled "A Local Law to amend the Zoning Map of the Town of Southold by
Changing the Zoning Designation of SCTM #1000-102-2-5 from Residential Low-Density
(R-80) to Affordable Housing District (AHD)" at Southold Town Hall, 53095 Main Road,
Southold, New York, on the 20th day of October, 2020 at 7:00 p.m.. The purpose of this
Local Law is to change the Zoning District Designation of SCTM#1000-102-2-5 from
Residential Low-Density (R-80) to Affordable Housing District.(AHD). The petitioner for this
request is North Fork Community Club LLC n/k/a 2050 Depot Lane, LLC. The property is
approximately 2.08 acres (90,804 sq. ft.) and is located at 2050 Depot Lane, Cutchogue,New
York.
Due to public health and safety concerns related to COVID-19, the Public will not be given
in-person access. In accordance with the Governor's Executive Order 202.1, said public
hearing of the Town Board will be held via videoconferencing, and a transcript will be
provided at a later date. The public will have an opportunity to see and hear the meeting live
and provide comments virtually.
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 2
The hearing will be held virtually via ZOOM Webinar. Instructions and link to attend the meeting
will be available on the Town's website or by calling the Town Clerk's office at (631)765-1800.
A telephone number will also be provided to allow members of the public to attend via telephone.
Written comments and/or questions may also be submitted via email to the Town Clerk at
elizabeth.neville@town.southold.ny.us. Said comments and/or questions will be considered at the
public hearing provided that they are submitted no later than 12:00 P.M. (Prevailing Time) on the
day of the public hearing.
Pursuant to the requirements of the Executive Order of the Governor of the State of New York, a
transcript will be prepared of the public hearing, and a copy shall be filed with the Town Clerk and
placed upon the Town's website.
Please check the meeting Agenda posted on the Town's website (www.southoldtownny.gov) for
further instructions or for any changes to the instructions to access the public hearing, and for
updated information.
COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: I have a notarized affidavit that this was posted in the Suffolk Times.
Also on the Town Clerk's website and bulletin board, on the Suffolk county Department of
Development and Planning, they are considering this to be a matter of local determination since
there is no apparent significant county-wide or inter-community impacts. From the Town of
Southold Housing Advisory Commission, Dear Supervisor Russell and members of the Southold
Town Council, The Housing Advisory Commission met on July 91" and August 6`h and heard
presentations on the proposed affordable housing project and approval of an affordable housing
district for a parcel located at 2050 Depot Lane in Cutchogue. At the August 6t' meeting, the
applicant Mr. William Goggins appeared via Zoom and presented the application. The Affordable
Housing Advisory Commission recommends the Southold Town Board approves the proposed
affordable housing district. The parcel proposed meets the criteria in the Southold Town code and
the proposed Southold Town Comprehensive plan. Affordable housing is needed in the hamlet of
Cutchogue and these 16 units will be a benefit to the community. The development of affordable
housing is a public need and the applicant is not applying for any government grants. In addition
to recommending the approval of the affordable housing district,the Affordable Housing Advisory
Commission recommends the Town Board waive the towns fee for the sanitary flow credits that
the applicant is applying to be transferred to his property, as well as any building department or
planning board application fees which may apply.' And from the Town's Planning Department,
there is a report and analysis of the project, the last section is a recommendation. `To address the
critical need for affordable housing in 2012 and again 2017, two separate requests for proposals
for affordable housing projects were released by the Town Board to solicit projects from
developers. The RFP's received no responses. To create affordable housing to meet the needs of
residents, a compromise on where to locate affordable housing in town must be realized. The
AHD zone was designed to be applied to parcels town-wide based upon their characteristics and
ability to meet sound planning principals while weighing the need for housing. The towns
historical buildout in changing economics and demographics have added a.greater level of
difficulty in achieving the towns affordable housing goals. The proposed change of zone of the
parcel to the AHD zoning district is supported for the following reasons: A.provides opportunities
for attainable affordable housing for residents meeting town goals as identified in the land use and
housing chapters in the draft Town of Southold comprehensive plan. B. The proposed adaptive
reuse of the existing structure and infrastructure. C. Meets the Planning Boards goal of dispersing
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 3
affordable housing units throughout the town. (Inaudible) the affordable housing project has not
been constructed in the hamlet of Cutchogue. D.Achieves the ability to access commercial centers
and uses public transportation, public schools,post office and other amenities. E. Would provide
the opportunity to construct work force housing near a commercial center. Please contact the
Planning Department with any other questions. I do have a couple of letters of opposition in the
file and one is a petition of almost 200 signatures.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: I want to assure everyone that has written in to express their
opposition or support,that is part of the record of the town. The Town Board does read every one
of them and weigh those within the decision making that each of us has. It is unfortunately
impractical to read what is probably a couple of dozen letters of opposition. But I assure you it is
part of the public record.
COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: That is all I have.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Okay, I would invite anyone that would like to comment to please
feel free?
COUNCILMAN DINIZIO: I am going to recuse myself from this application as I have some
conflicts here. So I am going to sign off.
BRUCE BROWNAWELL: This is Bruce Brownawell and my wife Anne McElroy is here and
we moved to Cutchogue on Depot Lane in 2018 and bought our dream home, it's also a bed and
breakfast and it's not a major complaint that you should consider but we paid a premium for this
property, knowing about the two acre minimum zoning and I don't think we would have paid that
premium if we had known that some of the character that our guests enjoy might be threatened by
higher density. But my primary comments here are related to my expertise and that is related to
groundwater contamination and we sent a letter back in March to Heather Lanza about some of
our concerns and then last week we sent a detailed letter to the Board members with more detailed
concerns focusing on groundwater issues that were related to different that I think the town should
be thinking about not only for this proposal but for other proposals going forward that involve high
density housing and anyways, my own background very briefly is that I am an environmental
chemist, this is my 32 year at Stony Brook University, taught for many years on Long Island
groundwater issues, right now I am a member of the (inaudible) at Stony Brook, we are working
on innovative on-site waste water treatments systems and testing them and so I do have some
background in this area, I have been in contact with the Health Department about groundwater
nitrogen issues lately as well as their main, their long term modeler (inaudible) and did all of the
state of the art monitoring for the sub water shed wastewater program and this is, anyway but the
two issues I want to talk about is with this concentrated septic plume, we should be worried about
downstream wells and I was kind of surprised today when I looked on the web and saw that there
is almost 6600 private wells in the Town of Southold. I don't know how many of those people
also are on public water but that is a lot of wells considering we only have 22,000 people and there
are some areas where people should be on public water with a lot of sewage stress. Right now we
are in a low priority zone according to the models in terms of the levels of nitrogen in this area
around Depot Lane and so anyways, I believe the groundwater divide is a little bit north, I am
pretty confident of this, is a little north of the Knights of Columbus hall and so the flow would be
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 4
toward the south and the properties that are immediately downstream are on private wells and well
off the street, so there is not a non-trivial cost if they were to upgrade to public water, (inaudible)
but I think that's something that I think the town should be working on in terms of water impacts
that are occurring in terms of private wells. But a bigger issue I think in terms of economic impact
and the number of people it impacts for the town is the county's need and desire to manage nitrogen
groundwaters to protect our surface waters, our tributaries, our bays including Peconic Bay
because nitrogen is causing a lot of eco-system (inaudible). The primary source of that nitrogen
is from groundwater and now after many years of agriculture being dominant on the north fork,
septic systems and cesspools are the primary source of nitrogen to our groundwaters and the
designated, modeling of the number of priority one zones that have some requirements, I am not
an expert on where it all gets applied in terms of new construction or upgrades in terms of going
to innovative alternative wastewater systems that are about $20,000 not including maintenance
costs for individuals but the plan for the town is to take all the priority one zones for about 300
households or so and upgrade them over the next 35 years. And that is a big cost for a community,
I don't think we should be thinking twice because we can't take it back in terms of contaminating
groundwaters and expanding areas of high priority zones (inaudible) both property value and
operating costs and capital costs that would be too much for the town and the county to pay for it
probably. Anyways, I have a few other points, one of my biggest recommendations is not to vote
on this matter until you get the help from experts from the county, from people like Timothy
(inaudible) and Walter (inaudible)that know both the science, the model results and they can help
you in terms of posing the right questions in terms of where you site what types of developments
and what impacts it would have so you can be better off in decision making and there is a state of
the art model ready to be run, simple simulations that would be cost effective if you can ask the
model the right questions and that's a big concern. The few other comments that I would make,
those are really my main comments, I would refer you to my letter. One thing I would say about
these, there seems to be some confusion from some town members that I have talked to is about
how good these alternative wastewater treatment systems are, they are really designed to reduce
nitrogen loads and nothing else,they take nitrogen from about 650 grams of nitrogen per liter right
down to 19 that's the requirement. If you compare that to what comes out the Riverhead plant or
the Bayport plant, those are more like 2 milligrams of nitrogen per liter or less. So these are not
particularly good systems even for nitrogen and they are not designed to take out other
contaminants, so yes we have some improvement in terms of protecting the bay if we are going to
these expensive systems but they are not doing a wonderful, perfect job of protecting our wells or
even protecting our water from nitrate for that matter. And I will leave it at that and I thank you
for your attention. I encourage you to read our letter and if you wanted me or I really encourage
you to contact the county health department for help on this going forward because these are really
big decisions. I think in terms of, because you can't take back where we put our high density
developments and personally I would consider putting them in already existing stressed priority
zones is where I would suggest it but I would understand disagreements on that issue. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Thank you. I also want to thank you, I did read through the letter and
I want to thank you for the very detailed explanation of the science here. Thank you.
CHRISTINA URWAND: Thank you. I am just on here, I just want to let you know I was born
on Evergreen Drive which is right off of Depot Lane in a small cul-de-sac community, so went to
the local schools, know the area very well. After college I did move into the city for a better job
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 5
opportunity, since COVID happening me and my fiance moved back in with my parents back in
that same house on Evergreen Drive off Depot Lane,spent the past nine months there,are currently
relocated to Florida just because we spent the spring and summer looking for housing in Cutchogue
where we could walk to a lot of the amenities we needed not having a car after moving out of
Manhattan, not being able to buy a car with COVID and it was very difficult, we didn't find
anything. So reading the article in the Suffolk Times about this possible development opportunity,
I do work in commercial real estate, I read the crisis in alignment to the salaries....
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: I am sorry we lost you...
MODERATOR: Let's give it a minute to see if Christina's audio comes back. Okay, I am going
to see if I can let Christina know we lost her audio. Okay, it does not, okay, Christina, I am going
to bring you in to talk once more.
MS. URWAND: Sorry, where did I get cut off?
MODERATOR: I don't remember the exact word...
MS. URWAND: Just the point being that both my brothers also submitted applications and we
hope to all apply and see this come to fruition in the near future for all of us young, aspiring
professionals trying to move back to our community that we grew up in and loved and would like
to start our own families and I think this is just the ideal way to do it, so you have my full support,
thank you.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Christina, can we have your last name for the public record?
MS. URWAND: Of course, Urwand.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Thank you.
MICHAEL MALKUSH: You did a pretty good job, but anyway, I want to thank all of you for
listening to us tonight and I feel the issue tonight is not about affordable housing. I really agree
with Christina and I feel bad, I have family, I have friends, I want them to find a place. The issue
tonight though is about zoning. Okay. Affordable housing is definitely needed in Southold Town,
it is very important. But changing residential zoning to high density is an issue and I really believe
it's wrong and it's irresponsible if any of you vote for it. My wife Carol and I,we moved out here
18 years ago. We live on Depot Lane. At that time, the zoning, and this was a big, big issue with
the Town Board, the zoning was 2 acres. We were, you know and I really think the town back
then was looking to preserve the rural character of this beautiful town. All the surrounding houses
surrounding us where all built on two acres. The Knights of Columbus property is also on two
acres and it's also residential. The zoning was in place for a reason. I believe I read on the
Southold Town website that zoning prevents new development from hurting existing residences.
The plan a developer recently presented at a town board work session and I watched it, and he
started 22 minutes into it and I watched the whole thing, I was very concerned, is to build 16 two
bedroom apartments on about two acres. That would include enlarging the footprint and adding a
second story to the existing Knights of Columbus building. It would also include building a
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 6
second, separate apartment building on the property. To build a project of this magnitude is
unacceptable and incompatible with the existing homes int eh area. Again, I am not opposed to
affordable housing, I am opposed to changing the zoning to build high density housing in a
residential community. And I feel very strongly about that and that is what you are really voting
on tonight,you are not voting about affordable housing. There are currently many vacant buildings
and there's a lot of property within the existing halo zone of Cutchogue that can be used.
Remember when halo zones where important to you guys? I have five points and I just have to
look at my notes for this one, that was my introduction by the way. Okay,these five points I think
are very important,I gave it a lot of thought by the way,I wrote a letter to Heather Lanza also back
in March opposing this. I didn't even hear back from anybody but that's another issue. Okay,
number one, over building, Harvest Pointe, okay,the 124 unit development in Cutchogue is about
50% complete, now another 16 bedroom apartments? It's too much. We have already seen
tremendous increase in traffic and have many concerns,I remember,I was in town hall many times
opposing Harvest Pointe and I remember you guys talking about affordable housing in Harvest
Pointe and it never panned out, okay, and I don't know why, I heard that they paid the penalty and
the town got a lot of money and they were able to do it whatever,that's another issue. But anyway,
you know we were led to believe back then that there was going to be affordable housing and take
care of that need in Cutchogue and it didn't work out. Okay, but anyway, second point I have is
that Depot Lane is a dangerous road and a lot of people don't realize that,they look at it, it's a nice
straight little road and I moved on it because I love Depot Lane, we have everything from the Red
Rooster restaurant to the bed and breakfast Bruce talked about before, we have houses, we have a
beautiful community even though people don't believe it, we have a church, we have a cemetery,
there's just a lot of wonderful things that are here but this whole apartment complex, it just doesn't
fit in. But anyway, I am saying it's a dangerous road, it's a straight mile from the Main Road to
Route 48. The sidewalk that's on there is terrible. You guys should be having another meeting
and fixing it, otherwise you are going to have a lawsuit against the town. Bicycle riders don't even
ride on that sidewalk,they drive on the road and I urge every one of you to park by the Red Rooster
and walk down to the Knights of Columbus, you will not believe the condition of the Southold
sidewalk. And we have signs that have it as Depot Lane being a bicycle path, these little round
signs that are up there and they have been there for many years, probably before a lot of you were
even board members but the bicycle riders go down, they won't go on there. I have 11 year old
twin grandsons, about one year ago one of them took a terrible fall on his bicycle because the roots
of the tree grow up and the sidewalk is sticking up and he fell and they don't even want to go on
that road and all he wanted to do was go from my house to Evergreen. Okay. But anyway, within
one week,I should say back in September,there were two accidents on Depot Lane and everybody
things oh,Depot Lane,when I tried to tell people it is a dangerous road. How can it be dangerous?
It's straight, it's one mile. That's why, people go fast, they go very fast. It's a north south road,
we have everything from first responders,they have to go up there,we have people at the wineries
that they have to make their reservation to go up to Lieb or Shinn or they are coming from Lieb or
Shinn and they are looking to go to Lenz or Bedell and limos drive fast and okay, I just want to
say I did send this for the record this morning, I have the police report and I also had something
from the Suffolk Times, on September 13th,people don't believe me that it's a dangerous road and
I'm just showing you one week, on September 13th there was a two car accident on Depot Lane
and Schoolhouse Road. I heard the crash in my backyard. I went running out there and this poor
couple, elderly couple, well, they were looking to make a left to head north on Depot Lane and
they got hit right across the, two cars collided in the front, the car was going south, I didn't see it,
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 7
but looking at the damage I would say car going south on Depot was speeding, the elderly couple
ended up, was through the fence and was up in the Santa's Christmas tree farm in Cutchogue and
they were taken by the ambulance to the hospital and just a few days later a pedestrian was hit and
injured and they were hit by a vehicle on Depot Lane. And all they were doing was taking a walk
down the road and I think if any one of you, if this happened on your block, you would say this
was a dangerous road. In one week, not even. Let me look at it. September 13 was the two car
accident, September 19 was the pedestrian getting hit. Six days, less than a week. There's many
accidents on Depot and the Main Road. There's many accidents on Depot and Route 48. Okay?
It's ridiculous that you guys are thinking about maybe voting for this development to go in or this
apartment complex and have an additional sixteen two bedroom apartments and who knows what
that could be, 50-60-70 people living there. Each of them many cars, delivery people coming in,
I just hope everybody understands this before you vote on it. Okay, number three, it's setting a
precedent. If this is approved it will set a precedent throughout Southold Town. Also including
other property on Depot Lane. Across the street from Knights of Columbus is 20 plus acres that
is currently fanned and is being rented by Sang Lee. I think Joe Grattan owns it. Okay. It's not
preserved. You set a precedent, what could stop the developer from suing you and saying I want
to build homes there, I don't know, maybe you have something but it just, it's a potential problem
and not just on Depot Lane, throughout Southold Town. Also, right on Depot Lane, we all
remember Vineyard 48, well, the vines, the vineyard is on Depot Lane, besides being on 48 they
own a lot of vineyards there, I don't know, I am going to say 20 acres if I look at it. That's across
the street from Knights of Columbus and north, so if you approve this and if I own that property,
I would just look at it and you set a precedent,wow, I want to build more affordable housing there.
I want to build apartments that aren't affordable housing. It doesn't matter, it's not about
affordable housing tonight, it's about the zoning change that you have to vote on tonight. Okay,
number four is water quality. Bruce just did a great job, he's a scientist, his wife is a scientist, they
work over at Stony Brook, 1, when he talks about water quality, I don't even understand half of it
but I know he's the guy to listen to. Not the developer who is saying and I heard the developer on
your work session earlier this month and when he was talking about getting the approval for water
quality, his comment was and I believe one of you and I commend you Sarah, you did ask him
why should we give you the approval before you get the approval for the water from the county
and his reply was, because I would sue them all the way to the Supreme Court because of a
precedent. There's that word again by the way. Okay, I think you are putting the cart before the
horse if you guys vote for this. Let the developer get all the approvals, let Bruce and Anne, the
scientists look it over and let them have some input, you have people that are so knowledgeable
and intelligent and have a real, let me say, they live here, they really want to, they care I guess is
what I was looking for. They care, as compared to a developer that wants to develop this property,
make a lot of money. He says that he is going to be the one who is going to manage it, he will sell
it,okay,eventually. He is going to sell it okay and who knows,you are going to be stuck, Southold
Town is going to be stuck with this by a bad decision by the Town Board. Let me just go to number
five, opposition by the community. We only heard about this about a week or so ago, we heard
about it back in March but as far as finding out it was going to be voted on tonight, so in about a
week, I don't know, a few of us put things on Facebook. One of the neighbors put up a petition,
we talked to a few people and 200 people or almost 200 people signed the petition opposing it.
And that's only within four days and that's throughout Southold Town and if I reached out to
anybody, I only reached out to people in Southold Town. I don't want my relatives out of state,
you don't want to hear about them, these are Southold Town. Two hundred people are opposing
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 8
this, these are 200 votes for your next election and they don't want it. We are the voters, the
developer, maybe you are good friends with them, that doesn't matter. It's us,. We are the ones
that will be stuck with something if that's a bad decision. Okay? I have my 11, year old twin
grandsons here with me. They are sweethearts. They go to Cutchogue East, we have been here,
they've been with us for nine years. I have major concerns about their safety. I have major
concerns with the over-development that's taking place. Isn't Harvest Pointe enough? Really,
think about that. Okay? And I forgot to mention before, Harvest Pointe is only 50% done. It's
going to 124 units there. I just have to think about my grandkids. Shouldn't they be able to ride
their bicycle down the road? Shouldn't they be able to go to 7-11 in the afternoon without having
to worry about, oh, no, now there's more people. And I want'every one of you to take that walk
by the way, from the Red Rooster down to Knights of Columbus and see what a disgrace that
sidewalk is, okay, and that's the town sidewalk and if you don't do something, somebody is going
to get hurt and there's going to be a lawsuit and by the way,twice over the years my grandsons hit
one of those where the roots are making the sidewalk come up and they don't even want to go that
way anymore. Okay? And that's not even an issue but I thought I would just mention it because
you guys,you know,you could sit there, I don't even know if you come down Depot Lane or look
at what it is but walk that sidewalk and see why people don't ride their bicycle, see why people
don't like'to walk there, see why people get hit by cars and it's a major problem. Okay? I just
want to finish up and say what is the purpose, really, of zoning? What is the purpose of elected
board members if you don't listen to the people who voted for you? I ask you, put your politics
aside and please vote no on this zoning change. Thank you very much.
MODERATOR: Okay, thank you for that. We don't have another hand raised at the moment but
we do have a text based message. For a text based comment, it is a question for the Board from
Christina Russo, `has the applicant yet submitted any building plans or elevations?'
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: That would have been reviewed by the Planning Board.
JUSTICE EVANS: She also has her hand up. She may have more questions.
STEVEN RUSSO: This is both Steven and Christina Russo, we are located three parcels south of
the Knights of Columbus property and we fully appreciate and agree there's a need, a serious need
for affordable housing on the north fork, let alone New York in general. But we have serious
concerns about this project for many of the reasons our neighbors have stated thus far in relating
to the health, safety and economics of those nearby residents. I think we need to just start with
some simple math, if you consider there's potential for 16 apartments to be built and you assume
an average of 3 '/2 persons per unit,we will be placing nearly 2%of Cutchogue's entire population
on one two acre parcel of land. Similarly if you compare it to Harvest Pointe at full construction
and full capacity and Harvest Pointe is 124 units on 46 acres,this develop here will be 16 units on
2 acres, it's nearly triple the density of Harvest Pointe. You know, our neighbors have gone to
great lengths describing the safety,issues and we've made reference to recent accidents both
vehicular and pedestrian striking, Bruce has talked at length about the potential environmental
effects and as I mentioned, we are three parcels south of Knights of Columbus and we use well
water for cooking, drinking and bathing, so we have serious concerns about potential water
impairment due to rising nitrogen levels not to mention the economic hardship we might be faced
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 9
with if we have to hook up to public water or potentially upgrade our septic system as Bruce was
alluding to before should our zone be reclassified to a higher priority district.
CHRISTINA RUSSO: This is Christina Russo, I am also at 980 Depot Lane. I was the one who
sent in that question before and so we have done our due diligence. We have scoured all the
meetings and the videos that are online and on the website and if there are elevations or building
plans that have been submitted, can't find them. They are not there for the public to see. I do
know that when the developer just talked with you guys on September 22, it was all sort of verbal
right, and we were talking about potentially uncoupling the idea of changing the zoning from this
particular project. So I would say,you change the zoning,that's in perpetuity. That is permanent.
And if it wasn't for this particular project, I am sure there is an absolute wonderful market for that
two acre property,you know,I am all for affordable housing as well for young families, for seniors
on fixed incomes, for first responders but this is private, this is a private for-profit enterprise that
is being suggested here. This is not,just so the public knows, this is not something that is using
state funds or town funds or county funds, federal funds, where there's lots of rules in place. So
you guys can change the zoning which then sets the precedence that we talked about for 20, 40,
how many other vacant acres there are on Depot Lane. And then what controls do we have over
this project? Because we haven't actually even seen, you know, to the other Christina who spoke
earlier today, you know, the idea of putting, they are going to put 10 two bedroom units in a
building that is currently 3,500 square feet maybe they will add a second floor and it will be 7,000
square feet. Those are not units raising a family, so I don't think, I think that there's sort of a
smoke screen going on with this affordable housing, it sounds, it's beautiful, it's wonderful
marketing. First responders and teachers, the youth, except what we are really building, we don't
actually know because we don't see the plans. And I think that's why in four days, almost 200
Southold Town residents signed the petition that we sent into you guys, so I would say be careful
what we do here because control and precedent are pretty scary.
MR. RUSSO: And one last point I forgot to mention, similar to Bruce, we are relatively new
arrivals to the area, we purchased in 2019, we purchased at a premium, we did our research. We
looked at which lands were protected, unprotected. We made sure to confirm that the Christmas
Tree farm behind us was development rights sold and we also made sure that we were paying a
premium for two acre zoning and for that to now be changed and changed in the absence of even
looking at plans or elevations as Christina mentioned, seems a bit irresponsible on the Board's
part. Thank you.
ALBERT KRUPSKI: Thank you, Alan and thank you Louisa for recognizing me. Throughout
the years in my lifetime, the town has embarked on numerous planning exercises and some of us
remember the US-UK exchange, Southold 2000 and the last administration embarked on hamlet
stakeholders and it was comprised of members from each community and they met numerous times
in a diverse group for each hamlet and they went parcel by parcel, they defined the hamlet, they
defined the halo's and years later, the stakeholders were reconvened under Supervisor Russell,
who with that Town Board adopted the maps, parcel by tax parcel. And these were planning
documents and the stakeholders worked hard, these were deliberate decisions, both by the
stakeholders and the Town Board to define these halo's within the hamlets and the whole idea was
that each hamlet had it's own identity and was different from each other, so it wasn't like each
hamlet was going to be so many square miles or so many acres. It was actually each hamlet has
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 10
its own character and should be so defined. So and one of the reasons that Cutchogue's halo is
shaped and hamlet is shaped like it is, is the last time there was spot zoning we ended up with 120
units behind the post office. So this application for spot zoning is really, shouldn't even be
considered. I know the Town Board doesn't have to consider a zone change, they can just dismiss
it and as a Cutchogue resident, the impact of a spot zone behind the post office is going to be felt
more and more and there also are high density parcels next to and near the post office that of
course, will be developed over time, there's no reservation on those and they are zoned for high
density development whether business or residential. So I am asking you not to dismiss the hamlet
stakeholders work, they worked hard at it and I think that that's a planning document and you
should not, you should be dismissing any spot zoning because it is going to change the character
of the community and completely, you know, as one of the last speakers said, it will change the
character forever. There is a lot of room for high density development yet in the halo and that will
happen in the future, so you have to consider that as well if you go outside of the halo, it just
becomes all development(inaudible). Thank you.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Thank you, Al. I just wanted to clarify in case the public
misunderstood but the spot zoning that had taken place at the site that is now the Heritage, that
was actually done in 1983, it was recognized as appropriate in 1989 and again in 1994, that was
before either of us was on the Town Board but I know we worked together to get that number
down and to expand the open space as best we could. That prompted litigation but I think when it
was all said and done, the litigation was settled in a manner that certainly made it a much better
proposal than what it had originally been which was 165 units.
LEGISLATOR KRUPSKI: Yes, absolutely.
KAREN WALLACE: Great,thank you. We live at 2000 Hallock Lane in Mattituck immediately
adjacent to the Harbes commercial business operations and I am addressing the Town Board
regarding those operations and I just want to make sure that everybody has a very clear
understanding of what is happening there.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: We are doing the public hearing on a proposed change of zone in
Cutchogue, as soon as that hearing is closed, when we are done with the comment, then when we
close that I am going to open up the opportunity for anybody to comment on any issue.
MS. WALLACE: Oh, I am sorry, I will wait until this is over.
MICHAEL FOOTE: Hi, thanks so much. This is Michael Foote calling. I grew up in Mattituck,
Southold, I have worked in the service industry out in Greenport for about 10 years now and I just
wanted to share that I think, especially what I have seen working in the restaurant industry, the
people who work, you know, in service industry who want to live and stay in Greenport and
Southold and Mattituck full time don't have affordable housing options and as we have all seen
during the pandemic and even before that, the areas have grown so significantly with businesses
which is great for everyone's property value and wonderful for all the small local businesses but
the problem is the businesses don't have a great pool of people they can hire to work in their
businesses,to work in these restaurants,and all these places are opening and filling up and creating
all these new businesses and there's people who work in those industries who can't afford to live
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out here. So it's great that we have this robust group of people moving out from the city who are
adding to the community and that is wonderful but there's this entire you know, I guess, what do
I want to call it, I guess working class group of people who can't afford to live anywhere, so
without affordable housing that is going to be really difficult. And I have already friends sort of
leave the area because of that. Or they have these absolutely insane commutes. I think the location
of the property is also a great opportunity, I mean it's not a secluded area. It's literally between a
two lane highway, the North Road and then the Main Road which is the busiest road leading
through the entire North Fork, so I think the resistance to you know, putting a housing complex
there is a little extreme given the densely'populated area anyway. And the fact that it's smack in
the middle of two highways. So I think it's a great idea,housing is so expensive out there,property
values are absolutely significant and growing and people who own restaurants and people who
own small businesses out there, they have no one that they can hire to work and the quality of
employee is really low and it's only going to get worse if people can't actually afford to live out
there. Especially for people who are local, you know, people who were born and raised in
Mattituck and Southold don't have the opportunity to stay out there. They are kind of getting
priced out of their own home. So that is all I have to say. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Thank you.
BILL GOGGINS: Good evening, my name is Bill Goggins. I appreciate the time to speak today.
Maybe shed some light on the project. The Knights of Columbus has been operating at,the,site
since 1980, that's when they got their special exception from the ZBA and since then they have
operated a fraternal organization there, including having weddings,pancake breakfasts, all kind of
events that are connected with the Catholic church and fundraisers for the Catholic church. And
it wasn't until probably several years after that when Lew Edson had subdivided the properties
where Mr. Malkush lives, next to him is Wilsberg, there are two other houses there too on each
side which are two acre parcels but those parcels, those houses were built after the Knights of
Columbus was already established and already performing operations. There is a full kitchen at
the Kights of Columbus, there's a bar, there's 4,000 feet of catering facility and again, it's been
operating there for almost 40 years until there was a decrease in use recently. So the intensity of
the site has always been there and the people who bought that houses on Depot Lane on the east
side where Mr. Malkush resides, the Knights of Columbus was already there and was already
operating so he kind of came to what was already existing. But,I appreciate his comments, I
understand his fear that his property values might go down, that is a natural fear of a lot of people
but in reality it won't. As I made it clear to the Housing Committee and the Planning Board that
when you drive by the Knights of Columbus which will hopefully be affordable housing, you are
not going to be able to see the building. The proposal that we have fillers on each side of the
driveway, a lot of landscaping in the front and when you drive by, you are not even going to be
able to see the building. When you drive by it's going to look like there's a mansion back there,
an estate, so you are not going to see it. Nobody is going to know what is behind it like some of
the other houses on that road, they put a lot of landscaping in front probably to decrease the road
noise and that's exactly what is going to be done here, so you are not going to be able to see from
the road so if nobody knows it's there, it is not going to be an adverse, unsightly view, I don't
really see what the concern is but I understand the fear of losing value and I also understand what
Mr. (inaudible) about groundwater, we want to make sure that the groundwater in our town stays
clean and potable. But that is why we have the health department and that's why this project has
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 12
to go to,the health department for,approval. And the process is that the change of zone happens
and then you go through health department approval and planning board approval, and possible
ZBA approval so that's the process. And you know, to address what Mr. Krupski was talking
about with spot zoning. This is not spot zoning, the Town Board in it's wisdom in the past created
this affordable housing district as a floating zone so that they could put in the affordable housing
units and sprinkle them throughout the town so that we could have affordable housing, for the
volunteer firemen, for the waitresses, waiters,people who work for plumbers and electricians, it is
very important that we have housing for these people so they are not living in the basement, I think
she said her name was Urwand, she said she lives in the basement with her boyfriend. I mean, it's
ridiculous how some of these people have to live and all this affects the most vulnerable, some of
the most vulnerable and that's the lower income people. You know, out here the property value
keeps going up, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. The young kids get pushed out of the
community and that's,what's happening, so to have 16 units on Depot Lane doesn't seem to be
that big of a deal unless you are actually living on Depot Lane as the people who spoke earlier are.
And again, I understand their concerns but I don't think those concerns are of such great
importance when you balance their concerns with having affordable housing and I know
everybody knows the area we are talking about between Route 48 and the Main Road and as you
know it's about a mile long and in that mile we have several uses, we have a gas station on the
corner of Depot and the Main Road, the other corner we have offices, then we have a gym, then
we have the'school administration building that used to be an elementary school, Cutchogue West,
now it's used as'an administrative and parking of busses and so forth. As you go further north you
have a bed and breakfast which is owned by Mr. (inaudible) and his spouse and that is a bed and
breakfast that has three suites,so they have got a little hotel running operation there and they didn't
seem too concerned when they bought the property and are running a bed and breakfast there which
is permitted by the town, which is great, they can run a bed and breakfast and earn a profit....
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: I hate to interrupt, I would just ask that you address the Town Board
not necessarily....
MR. GOGGINS: I am, I am just addressing their concerns. But I will go forward, thank you.
Further up the road in front of Mr. Malkush's house, he puts a farmstand up there occasionally,
further up the road we have a Catholic rectory and Catholic church, Our Lady of Ostrabrama, next
to that is the Sacred Heart Cemetery which is pretty large. Further up the road is the Red Rooster
restaurant, next to the railroad tracks. Up from there is a wholesale bookstore, Buccaneer Books,
which is a commercial operation. On the other side of the tracks you have Gary Schulman produce
shipper that's been there forever. Across the street from him there is a big storage facility where
they are storing boats. So,in that mile area, we have about 14 uses that are not residential and the
substantial rest of Depot Lane is farm field. And at the site of the project,to the east is the farmland
that all of the development rights have been sold, so to the east there is never going to be
construction there and its open space and across the street there's farmland and I think as Mr.
Brownwell pointed out or Mr. Malkush, yes, it can be developed and the Grattan family owns it
but again,that is subject to Planning Board approval and everything else so I think those concerns
are not that important because there are things in place that protect that. And as far as the height
of the building and how the building looks like,the Planning Board is very diligent board and they
make sure that these projects look good, that they are properly screened and you know, they are
developed in a decent manner. Also, there was another concern about maybe we would flip the
a
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 13
property or get rid of it, the town code makes it very clear that this affordable housing district,
once it is changed will be there in perpetuity,which means forever. As long as it's a viable project.
Initially we had wanted 20 units but we had to scale it down because of the sanitary flow credits,
the most we could get was a project of 16 units and that's not a very big project when you come
down to it, 16 bedroom units is not a high project that is going to cause a big change in the
neighborhood, so I wanted to address those things as well. In the end, conclusion, I think this is a
good project for the town, I think it will help keep our volunteer firemen here who are struggling
to find apartments to live, affordable apartments, without our volunteer firemen we have to with,
we have to hire fire people, we have to go into a place where they, where our town has to have a
fire department which is not volunteer, we have to pay for which will raise everybody's taxes. So
we need these volunteer firemen, we need them to stay in town and they are really decent, hard
working people and they volunteer to help us all out and this is a project that can help them,people
that are situated like them. And for you too, for the Town Board to neglect to address that part of
the balancing act that you have to do, I think it will be hurtful for the town in the long run. So I
would ask that this project go through, I think it will be good for the town, I don't think it is going
to have any adverse impacts on property values,it is not going to have any adverse impact on water
quality in the area. I think it is a perfect place to do this, there aren't many places in the town
where we could have affordable housing. No matter where you choose to put these affordable
housing districts,there is always going to be opposition to the people who live close by the project
and again,I know it's a tough balancing act for the Town Board and I ask that you balance in favor
of the lower income people that want to stay here and work here and have a life here. Thank you.
JOE AND ADRIENNE FUCHS: Thank you very much. This is Joe and Adrienne Fuchs, we live
at 1670 Depot. I would like to say that we are in strong opposition to what's being proposed here
and it's based on the comments that my neighbors made tonight but one thing I want to add, in the
last four or five days, I have spoken to probably two dozen people who live in Southold and just
reflecting on those conversations, two things were very, very clear. One that these people were
not in opposition to affordable housing,they understand the need and they want to see that happen
but number two,they are violently opposed to rezoning a residential property for multi-family use.
They see that as a threat in their neighborhoods, they project what that means to their values. We
all live in Southold because it's a truly unique place. It's incredibly beautiful, tranquil, quiet and
it's the reason that we are here. Just contemplating this change really changes the whole character
of what Southold is about and I think you will have very, very unhappy people in the Town of
Southold if we allow this to happen. That's it for me.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Thank you very much.
MODERATOR: Next we have a couple of text based comments, so there are a group of them
together from Steven and Christina Russo, so the first question is, is there some implication that
Knights of Columbus is the same as 16 units of rental apartments and just because you can't see
it, it's not there? I don't know if the Board wants to respond to it?
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: The question with reference to is there consistency with those two
uses? What, as part of the public hearing we will take all opinions and all comments but, you
know, the issue of trying to decide if it's consistent or not, that's for the Board to decide after we
hear from the entire public.
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MODERATOR: Okay. The next one is in the similar vein but I am going to read it into the record
because it was a submitted comment, from Steven and Christina Russo also. Is there also an
implication that the increased sewage flow from the transient B and B guests is the same as that
from full-time residents of a 16 unit apartment complex? And the next one, also from Steven and
Christina Russo is, did any of the mixed use properties that Mr. Goggins is referring to on Depot
Lane require zoning change at the time they were erected?
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: What we do is we will gather all the questions and then we will make
that part of our, as we contemplate.
MODERATOR: Okay. One more text based comment, last text based comment that I can see at
the moment is also from Steven and Christina Russo, is putting two percent of the Cutchogue
population on a single parcel not a significant change to the area? So those read into the record.
So we have Al Krupski.
ALBERT KRUPSKI: I did not have my hand raised.
MODERATOR: Oh, okay. Did you have anything to add?
MR. KRUPSKI: No.
SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Al, I am just going to outline some protocol for public hearing, what
we would like to do is have people make comments and then continue with people who haven't
had a chance to make one yet, to focus on them. And then if anybody has additional comments,
we will take them after everybody has at least had a chance to speak first.
MODERATOR: At the moment, I do not see any hands raised and our q and a box is empty. It
looks like at the moment things are addressed or quiet.
JUSTICE EVANS: I move we close the hearing.
COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: I propose that we leave the hearing open so we can gather more
comments, leave it open for written comments.
JUSTICE EVANS: Do we want a motion to close or a motion to just go back to regular session?
Leave the hearing open for two weeks? I just couldn't hear what Bob and Jill were saying.
COUNCILWOMAN NAPPA: I feel that I would like to table this and have more discussion with
the Board on this before we vote.
JUSTICE EVANS: It's not on the agenda to vote tonight.
COUNCILWOMAN NAPPA: Okay.
COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: Inaudible.
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Change of Zone-North Fork Community Club LLC page 15
COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: We are fine with closing the hearing.
This hearing was closed at 8:40 PM
Eli eth A. Neville
Southold Town Clerk