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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPublic Hearing 07/30/2019 SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD PUBLIC HEARING July 30, 2019 9:00 AM Present: Supervisor Scott Russell Justice Louisa Evans Councilman William Ruland Councilwoman Jill Doherty Councilman James Dinizio, Jr. Councilman Bob Ghosio, Jr. Town Clerk Elizabeth Neville Town Attorney William Duffy This hearing was opened at 9:00 AM COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN the Town Board of the Town of Southold will hold a Public Hearing on Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:00 A.M. at the Southold Town Meeting Hall, 53095 Main Road, Southold,New York upon application of the Coastal Erosion Hazard Board of Review Appeal of Harry and Haykuhi Bashian, which seeks relief from Section 111-6 Definitions and 111-12D Beach Area of the Town Code to replace existing storm-damaged bulk-heading with new untreated timber navy bulkheading consisting of removing a 14'northwesterly section, a 61.5' northerly section and a 4'northeasterly section of existing storm-damaged bulkheading; replace the existing 41' westerly section with a new 27.5' section, a new 62.5'northerly section installed in an angled position, and replace existing 41.5' section with new 38.5' easterly section; install 61.5' of proposed toe- armor consisting of 2-4 ton (minimum of518"x18"x18") stone laid out in a single row with geotextile filter fabric placed underneath along the seaward edge of new northerly bulkheading; replace existing 10'wide by 36.5' long seaward side deck with untreated lumber in same place supported by five (5) 10"x20"pressure treated timber pilings with the westerly side of the deck to be cantilevered over new bulkhead; remove two (2) existing storm damaged 12'x36.5'+- side yard decks; remove existing 5.5' wide by 61.5' long section of northerly decking; install approximately 320 cubic yards of clean beach sand backfill within a+-38x5'x61.5' area to raise the grade landward of the new bulk heading to be level with County Road 48; and for the existing 26.4'x36.3' two-story dwelling; and as depicted on the site plan prepared by Bulkhead Permits by Gary, Inc., last dated February 14, 2019 within a near shore area in a Coastal Erosion Hazard Area located on property on parcel SCTM#1000-44-2-15 at 58425 North Road, Greenport,New York and directs the Town Clerk to publish a notice of such appeal in the Suffolk Times newspaper not less than ten (10) days nor more than thirty (3 0) days prior to such hearing and to notify the applicant by first class mail. Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 2 I have here a notarized document that this has been advertised in the Suffolk Times. Also a notarized document that this has been advertised by the Town of Southold on the Town Clerk's bulletin board and on the town website. I have the copies of the mailing certificates to the adjacent property owners and a letter here that this has been forwarded for review to the DEC and that's all I have. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Would anyone like to address the Town Board on this coastal erosion appeal? Please. MICHELLE HAMILTON: Hi. I am a family member of Carla McMann who is adjacent to the east, directly to that property. She did receive a certified letter but honestly, they never sent us that. This is how I received it. The concern would be that the property that she owns and my family has is adjacent to the east, immediately to the east and it's just a lot. Last time there was work done in the area she had damage done to her property and wear and tear on that. I don't want access granted or given on that property to get down to do the work. I am not opposed to the Bashian's doing their bulkhead but Carla McMann's property is not to be used to get down to the beach. People tend to use it and they shouldn't. Also too, I would be concerned with just to see, I guess I have to go see about the distance on the east decking to make sure that that is within her property and this offset is appropriate. I wasn't well prepared for this, I didn't have more information, this was given to me very recently and in this state as I said. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: When was it received? MS. HAMILTON: This was received, I received it on Thursday from her caretaker. It was postmarked July 9th. She is not well, that's why she is not here but I am her power of attorney and I handle her affairs. This is how it came to me. So I don't know how to address the situation that this was not returned in a timely fashion. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: It was not returned by the recipient? MS. HAMILTON: Yes. This is how it sat and this is the way it came to me. But that's just my concern. I don't want damage done to her property and I was just concerned about the offset of the decking on the east side. That it's not, that's it within proper... SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Understandable. MS. HAMILTON: That was it. Thank you. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: I was reading through this, it doesn't say, I assume it's going to come in by barge and do the work by barge. Is it in the file anywhere, Bob? How they are going to do the work? Oh, they are. Okay. I didn't realize. So that's the question. How is the equipment and (inaudible) going to be coming from a barge on the Sound? SCOTT MOSES: Scott Moses, Bulkhead Permits by Gary, so it is pretty unlikely that it will come in by barge, it's not deep enough. Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 3 COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Okay. MR. MOSES: We would have to come landward. There's two adjacent lots that are empty, one is owned by Suffolk County and the other one I suppose is owned by the appealant. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Right. MR. MOSES: We could just come the other way. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Or you would need permission from the property owner. MR. MOSES: Okay. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: You can't just go on somebody else's property with a machine and the worry is eroding that property with the machine and the equipment and even the people walking back and forth. So you would need permission to access someone else's property to get the work done. That is a concern. MR. MOSES: Okay. Is that basically the only issue? To seek proper permission from Suffolk County? SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: That is one issue she has just raised. You would have to gain access through Suffolk County. How you do that is between you and Suffolk County. But that is only one concern, we are reviewing it now, we are going to ask questions. What is the total width of the parcel overall? MR. MOSES: The total width of the parcel, to be honest, I didn't bring the survey. I just have construction plans. So the length of the actual, the house, which is nearly the width of the entire parcel or the bulkheading is 61 1/2 feet. So the parcel is a touch bigger than that. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Yes, you can see 61.5, it goes all the way, it's probably about 62 feet. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: I am looking at numbers here and I am looking at, for lack of a better word, erosion control or shore hardening would be about 75 feet and that's going to be extending to 90. Is that, if I am reading that correctly, is that what's currently, it says replacing existing 41 feet westerly with a new 27 and then there's 62.5... COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: That's more of a return. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: That's the returns? COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Yes, because it's so long... SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Right, so they have to come back on...you wouldn't know if this is in the Arshamomaque Cove study area? Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 4 COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Yes, it is. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: And the deck is just replacement in kind? MR. MOSES: Just the front section, so this is the cantilever, I think that was one of the issues with the appealant. So basically what the currently what we are looking to do, so to kind of start from the beginning, there is a cantilevered section on the seaward side of the deck and that is what we are looking to replace right now. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: So the size decking here is just filling in to... MR. MOSES: Right, the Trustees want us to fill it with sand to the height of the road. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Right, so you'll just have stepping stones or nothing on that side to get around to the seaward side of the house. MR. MOSES: Tentatively you will have to go through the house, similar to access the rear yard deck. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Alright, so there's no side yard, you are saying. MR. MOSES: Not yet, no. Have to go through a different process. i SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: I am still trying to, the existing deck versus the new deck is going to be an exact replacement in kind? MR. MOSES: Well, the previous property owner, they built the deck around the entire bulkhead, so kind of like a U if you can imagine that. However, they built that deck illegally. The only deck that was approved by the Town of Southold was the front cantilevered section. I don't know if you have the plans in front of you or not, so for the purposes of kind of getting the bulkhead built and protecting property first and then just kind of play ball. Get the decking and the bulkhead replaced before we even address the front yard decking. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: So in other words, just the seaward side decking is (inaudible) at this point. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: At this point. MR. MOSES: We already got DEC approval for the side yard decking, the Army Corps of Engineers, Department of State, the Town of Southold Trustees specifically. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: I am looking for, the distance between the mean high water mark and I assume (inaudible) that's going to be based on current Trustee requirements, that's going to maintain(inaudible) public trust doctrine? Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 5 MR. MOSES: Correct. So basically (inaudible) pretty in depth exactly where they want the bulkhead, where they want(inaudible) and we are just abiding by (inaudible). So if it's not clear, we already have the tidal wetlands permit from the Board of Trustees and it's my understanding this is part of the process, we have to file on appeal before we can... SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Right but it's not just administrative, it's a genuine appeal that the Town Board has to consider all those circumstances, it's just not perfunctory. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: Even after you remove the existing illegal decking, you are still going to have a section of the decking cantilevering over the bulkhead. MR. MOSES: Correct. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: And based upon the drawings that I am seeing, it's going to extend well past the average high water mark, yes? MR. MOSES: Yes, but this is what was previously approved, so I believe in the 80's was probably the original property owner went through a process very similar to what we are going through now, and this is what was originally approved so we just want to replace it. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: This was accepted back 30 plus years ago. The contours of the beach and average high water mark were different. MR. MOSES: Most likely yes, 30 years ago but this is the deal I worked out with the Trustees. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: It doesn't mean the Town Board... MR. MOSES: Understood. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: What is the height from, of the deck, from ground level. MR. MOSES: Ground level it would be eight or nine feet. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Yes, that's what I thought. Even though it cantilevers past high tide, people can walk under it. So they can still walk past. High tide reaches the bulkhead, correct? MR. MOSES: Correct. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: I can't recall how many properties or projects that actually cantilever over the top of the bulkhead into the Sound. How many do we have? COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: There are a couple of others in that area, because the properties are so small and the houses encumber the whole property pretty much. Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 6 MR. MOSES: So to be clear, it doesn't completely cantilever over the whole section just the southern side of the decking. I don't have the exact math in front of me but the vast majority of the decking wouldn't cantilever over, it would just be (inaudible) to the bulkhead in one small section. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Approximately how many feet? Five feet? MR. MOSES: My guess would be maybe 4 x 36 feet approximately. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: So four feet out, straight out. MR. MOSES: So it would be kind of like this, like a small four foot section or maybe triangle. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Okay. MR. MOSES: I have the plans in front of me. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: How far off the North Road is the house? MR. MOSES: Is the house? Let's see, I have a cross section right here, so from the white far line it's 36.5 feet, the center of the road is 47 feet. I don't have an exact measurement in front of me. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: You have to walk under it to maintain public trust document? COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Yes, they will be able to walk under it at low tide. Unless you are eight feet tall. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: The public trust doctrine requires that it be high water mark, not low tide. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Right, so he would have to move his house. You know that area, the high tide comes right up to the properties. So I don't think there's anything else we can do. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: He can't just armor and protect the house. MR. MOSES: We are proposing armoring as well, so I believe in the description that was submitted (inaudible) COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Just a cross section. MR. MOSES: Two to three tons that are required. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: If you look at this side view, you can see the shape of the cantilever (inaudible) and people will still be able to walk there. Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 7 SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: It's probably going well outside the bounds of this, they are aware of the coastal erosion of that area and its currently under review by the Army Corps of Engineers and it's just, this is probably going out of the scope of this hearing but one of the issues I have is that people keep investing in homes in an area that's eroded and then in order to protect those homes, they come to the federal, state and town governments to say restore our beaches. That's problematic to me, if people make sound investments or improvements in their property then they wouldn't have to rely on government money to restore their beaches. That's one of the problems. I mean, at some point there has to become a policy of retreat in this process and I haven't seen any willingness to do that, particularly in this area where the erosion is getting pretty critical. That's my only issue there. I would think the armoring of the house would be principal. MR. MOSES: I think from the applicants perspective is not everyone is aware of these things but I would say from all the clients, I have personally done well over 300 DEC permits. Maybe 10 percent of my clients are even aware of the coastal erosion issues you are speaking of. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Well, I can assure you, just from everybody, that 43 stretch of property owners are well aware of the Arshamomaque property study. This is within, I assume, the 43? COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Yes, it is. MR. MOSES: A lot of people that purchased these houses, they don't realize they purchased a can of worms. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: That's called (inaudible). COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Due diligence. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: I am not so sure, I think it's also prudent to take sand over the bulkhead in this area (inaudible) sometime in the future. That's the whole point of the coastal erosion hazard code, to prevent that from happening. MR. MOSES: so we could put toe armor around the actual pile itself, that will help protect it and it's my understanding that the Trustees, the permit they are going to issue would allow repair, so if something would happen they could fix it. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Any sense at all as to what we want to do at this point? COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: As long as we put condition on either get proper permission from the property owner next door, in this case he says the County or they come in by barge. I mean, they have no choice either way. The owner on the other side is not going to give permission, rightly so because that is their property and they don't want it damaged. If the county gives permission then that's between them and the county. Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 8 COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: I don't see anything in the Trustees paperwork that addresses.. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Did you have a discussion with the Trustees on how you are going to get the equipment there for repair? MR. MOSES: Not in depth, we, at the site we actually agreed to come in on one of the side yards. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Okay. And they didn't have an issue with you not owning the side yards? MR. MOSES: They brought to my attention, the property owner attention seeking permission but it's not a current problem for us. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Well, it might be a problem for the county. They might say no. They might say no. as long as you are prepared, if they say no, that you are going to have that added expense to bring the barge in. MR. MOSES: I see. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: That's the only other choice that I know of. MR. MOSES: Okay, I mean, I guess one day at a time. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: I don't see anything here in the Trustees paperwork about future repairs. MR. MOSES: They told me that verbally over the phone. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Well, if there aren't any other questions, I just want to raise one other prospectus, first of all, you haven't established access to the site to work yet, that's an important component. Secondly, this is a particularly sensitive area of concern for the town, federal and state, I really think this needs to be scrutinized a little bit more. Plus there's a public trust doctrine issue that I am not comfortable with, there may be, I don't want to tip my hand but there may be no other choice but I would like to take an opportunity to at it a little bit more in depth. This property is really in rough shape, as are most. I mean, that's one of the issues. MR. MOSES: The driveway, it's getting really bad. They really need a new bulkhead at the very least. COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: I agree with Scott. I have some issues here as well. I am not comfortable with the cantilever over, as far as it is over the average high water mark. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Do you want to close the hearing and reserve decision for two weeks? Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 9 SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Again, I am going to be open minded, I am going to read this thoroughly but generally the general trust doctrine doesn't require (inaudible) and that's one of the issues. You know, there has got to be spacial consideration between the shoreline and the height. I am really, also, you need to factor in what may or may not be a substantial (inaudible) project down the road and that will at least be part of the consideration and any conditions that this might need. I need more time, I am sorry, that's going to be my position but it's up to the board. Do you want to close the hearing, do you want to leave it open? COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: Whatever the proper thing is to do but if we could... TOWN ATTORNEY DUFFY: I think you should leave it open, if you are going to want them to provide any type of documentation or if you want to look at outside sources, you should keep it open so that it's part of the record. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Okay. TOWN ATTORNEY DUFFY: Just adjourn for two weeks. COUNCILMAN DINIZIO: We certainly should know how you are going to gain access to that property. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: At the very least. MR. MOSES: I would gladly have prepared all this. I mean, I have had so many conversations about this property for the past year and a half with the Trustees, with the Town Clerk. I would have prepared all this. COUNCILMAN DINIZIO: Was it your assumption that you could use someone else's property to get on there? MR. MOSES: I would have done everything sooner. INAUDIBLE MR. MOSES: I would assume the county wouldn't have too many issues. COUNCILMAN DINIZIO: Alright, well, so go and ask them. MR. MOSES: I will. COUNCILMAN DINIZIO: And then let us know what they say. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: And bring that back as part of the record. But I wouldn't be comfortable just on that one issue alone. I need to know you can get access to the site if you are going to do the work. And I can understand that if you had only known but it's an appeal, you knew you were going to file an appeal. I can appreciate the fact that the Trustees have already Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 10 reviewed it and put conditions in, you may very well have the DEC permit in place but there's an extra step in the process because the coastal erosion hazard mitigation line and that's something that if you had done 300 applications, I am sure you would have dealt with that in the past. So those are the types of things that the Town Board is going to look at. Again, this isn't just a perfunctory hearing, that well, okay, I have got everything I need, now let me go to the Town Board and have them officially sign off on it. That's the whole purpose of the hearing and if we raise issues and questions, to have those answers resubmitted and answered for us. I mean, that's.... COUNCILMAN GHOSIO: I would suggest a site plan, also some heights from the beach to the deck so we can see whether people have to duck to get under this. Perhaps an alternative plan that doesn't include the cantilever at all. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: And again, there might very well be no other option but we are raising the questions, we need to have answers so we can determine that. Okay? COUNCILMAN DINIZIO: I just want to say something because I dealt with this property before, okay, on the Zoning Board. We know we have an ongoing problem there with erosion and I get that you have a hardship that needs to be addressed and that I personally feel the town should accommodate those to the greatest extent possible. I am not so sure that I really much care whether someone can walk underneath that dock or not, okay, because that's just not a walkable beach in any way in my opinion, so but I do need to know how, because it came up before with that piece of property how we were going to do that construction. You have to let us know, we can't rely on the neighbor's property, we can't rely on Suffolk County unless you get permission to do it. COUNCILWOMAN DOHERTY: In writing. COUNCILMAN DINZIO: It has to be done. After that, I don't think you can barge in because like you said it's very shallow but there is no sense in going any further if you can't accomplish the task. You are not asking for anything more, I mean, 30 years ago I am very doubtful that any of this was near the high water mark. Any of it. I am pretty sure there was a beach there and that's just a part of a calamity of errors and mistakes and assumptions that people made when they built structures on the Sound and how the sand goes and now we are trying to deal with people just trying to live in their house. They are trying to enjoy their piece of property and I think that we as a Town Board or we as a town have an obligation to bend a little bit on that but the one thing we can't bend on is how we are going to accomplish the task without... MR. MOSES: I have no issue... COUNCILMAN DINIZIO: Okay. MR. MOSES: Receiving permission. COUNCILMAN DINIZO: I just wanted to be clear on that. Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 11 MR. MOSES: That's quite reasonable. That's fine. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: I am just going to address what Councilman Dinizio said, I agree there are mitigating factors that the town has to bend on but how the question is far do you bend and that has to be based on fact. I have a Town Board member that wants to see the height of clearance to maintain some measure of public trust, we certainly, I think all of us share the issue of access and in a form of, not just in a presumptive way, but actually in a documented way. I would be willing to, my personal view is I think we should adjourn, leave the hearing open and I will submit that. COUNCILMAN DINIZIO: I would agree. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: Would anyone else from the public like to address this particular hearing? TOWN CLERK NEVILLE: I would like to say something, Mr. Supervisor. Mr. Moses, you made reference to the fact you had many conversation with the Trustees and the Town Clerk with regard to this, the only conversation you had with the Town Clerk or the Town Clerk's office was the process for filing the appeal. I just want to make that clear. MR. MOSES: Certainly. But we were missing documentation. SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: It's not a question of missing documentation, it's a question of a public setting where a Town Board reviews an application and then'determines what more it would like to see from the application. We are talking about a public record here. And if we think more information needs to be added to the public record so we can make a decision, this is the process on how it works. I mean, there is no punch list of saying, you know, you give us everything here and then we are going to go ahead and take action on permit. That's the whole purpose of a public hearing and this is not unique, in most instances, public hearings require further documentation. It's on,the discretion of the board that is hearing it. Right now, it happens to be a Town Board that's hearing it. Would anybody else like to address the Town Board? ALBERT KRUPSKI: Albert Krupski, Cutchogue. I am a Suffolk County Legislator, I am chair of the Public Works Committee, I would be happy to introduce this gentleman to the Commissioner of Public Works. The county, I would guess, grants access to people on a regular basis. It just happened at Cedar Beach and that was over parkland. This isn't technically county parkland but it is county owned property, so there has got to be a procedure in place, where you have restoration of the site after work, you need to worry about liability during construction, that sort of thing that's got to be addressed. You know, I can't promise you access there but I can promise you at least who to call and start that process. MR. MOSES: Certainly. Thank you. Coastal Erosion Hazard Appeal-Bashian July 30, 2019 page 12 SUPERVISOR RUSSELL: That raises an issue in terms of restoration, things like that, that would need to be part of our approval. But again, like I said, I am flexible, I just need to see more. MR. MOSES: Thank you. This hearing was adjourned at 9:33 AM El' eth A. Neville Southold Town Clerk